Why do some people mock others' taste in music and dismiss groups that they don't like as being crap and having no talent, etc, as if they were an authority or arbiter on musical excellence?

Because so often it is technically substandard, and therefore deserving of the harshest criticism. For example, lots of really popular J-Pop bands "sing" in unison, rather than in multi-part harmonies, with limited vocal range. This indicates that basic technical musical skills are lacking, and therefore the members dont qualify as "musicians" and so shouldnt be doing what they are doing.

Like watching a movie whose actors are amateurs. As waste of our time.

There is no objective way to qualify music as good or bad, other than the number of people who enjoy it.

I am NOT a fan of country music. To my ears, it does not ring enjoyable, and I get a little annoyed at it, rather than enjoying it.

But if I tried to make the claim that country music is no good, I'd be an idiot. It's LOVED by millions and millions of people.

It's like trying to say a given food is delicious or not. Someone who doesn't like it, doesn't like it. That doesn't mean it's not delicious to someone else.

That's why I mock people who mock people's taste in music. Whatever they themselves listen to, it's almost guaranteed someone else won't like it.

Strangerland

A standard need not be 'objective' to be a standard.

People need to think they are smarter than others, despite the lack of evidence for it.

I see this especially among jazz fans, who can be the worst music snobs. And almost inevitably, they don't have a clue but are ready to criticize anything that doesn't fit their personal definition of "real" jazz. Conversely, the actual jazz musicians (like most accomplished musicians) tend to be very open minded about music.

One word - biases. It can be applied to anything: food, clothing brands, movies, etc. and basically anything that can be prejudiced on. What people (not everyone) like, they put on a pedestal and lower those around it. Youtuber Filthy Frank made a video on people being jerks about their music tastes titled "I was born in the wrong generation".

Because so many people are just full of themselves.  tolerance is a dying virtue.

I should add that while it's natural for people to have their own prejudices, its not normal for people to scoff at other's preferences. I just goes to show that they went out of their way to parade their own tastes and berate others who don't share the same views.

The use of the word "crap" here is a bit jarring.

I have no time for snobbery, nor for anyone who judges others negatively, based on their tastes in music, clothing, pastimes etc.

I’m with commanteer on Jazz having the most insufferable snobs although people who use the term ‘real music/musicians’ of any genre are usually a pain in the arse.

I guess I've been lucky in the jazz world. I haven't found that much snobbery there personally. I've heard some tales of course. But I guess I've always been more into the small combos and mod jazz and what followed it rather than the big band chart reading kind of stuff.

Besides most sub-genres, the most uptightness/snobbery I have found personally was in the folk orbit. Which was always very weird and almost ironic to me given that folk is really the art of the people; telling the story of what it's like to live in any given time. Where is there any room for conservatism (not speaking of the political variety) there?

JeffLee

The whole point of J-pop is, as the great bubblegum pop band ABBA opined, "anyone could be that guy." So, yeah. I'm hard pressed to even consider most of Jpop as technically even music. Because it is entirely derivative. Because nothing about it concerns art.

Still, I''l grant for the sake of furhterting the argument, that Jpop is art. Ok. It's music.

Just very bad music.

Still, on the other hand, there is that its-so-bad-its-good thing. You mentions bad acting. Well, if haven't seen the Room, good, don't bother, its terrible. BUT, the film about the making of the Room, aptly titled The Disaster Artis (based on the book of the same name) is a testament that just cause you feel it, just cause it's orgininal, just 'cause it's art, don't mean its gonna work. Don't mean its good art.

There is good art, and bad art, and everything in between. And the Disaster Artist is a wonderful depiction of two men's strange and disturbing attempt to create. [As an aside, it's mostly about a friendship, a strange and beautiful friendship between two men]

Maybe they are an an authority on music?

Strangerland

A system of weights and measures, for example. Take one foot = 12 inches and 1/5280 of a mile. Its all rather arbitrary, but it works for building things. The metric system is based on originally the length of a random iron rod, one meter, which when subdibided by two factors of ten, gives you a cm, which when cubed and forlmed into a water = 1 gram, the energy of which to increase from 4 to 5 degrees is one C. Not as arbirarty, once the initial one meter is granted. And both can be used to do things, and when using the varying degree of arbitrary and understtood premises and relationships, can build roads and water tanks and planes that work, or fall apart. Because they followed the internal rules set up by the system.

The analogy goes only so far. Roads and brigdes that last or don't is not quite the same as a song that lasts or doesn't. Aesthetics is not engineering. But the point holds:

If one knows about an artistic discipline, music, one is perhaps in a better position to judge certain artistic merits of that song.

For some, because it's a fun thing to do and they don't take such things so seriously or as if it is a personal attack on someone.

For others, music often has an incredible effect on culture and society as a whole so when you see stuff that is having a negative effect (such as pop stars who make lusting after money and image and over-consumption acceptable and even desirable) they try to take it down a notch. Some people get tired of being inundated with a culture that celebrates and promotes mediocrity too I guess and are bitter about the lack of justice in a world that can make millionaires of morons while others who they deem more worthy of praise due to the care and effort they put into their craft have to struggle forever.

I can identify with most sides of this at different times. Including those who don't feel the need to justify what they like.

Both pitch and rhythm are objectively measurable.

Yes, but how good do you want to be?

I’m semi-literate musically. My wife is a very handy pianist with a finely tuned ear and nailed-on timing. What sounds okay to me doesn’t sound right to her.

I’m with commanteer on Jazz having the most insufferable snobs although people who use the term ‘real music/musicians’ of any genre are usually a pain in the arse.

A lot of snobbery I heard from folk lovers was against those who didn’t treat it as the art of the people and turned it commercial. Mumford and Sons were attacked as ‘Tory’ music and I remember a mate describing it as the kind of music you put on your iPod for the Boxing Day fox hunt.

Jazz snobbery in my experience is more a sense of Jazz as a higher art form with superior musicians.

Very interesting. I can see how that would work. The folk snobbery I encountered was not "sounding like" folk. As if there is some sort of defining sonic feature of the music. It doesn't have to be a boring old guy in a sweater with an acoustic belting our John Henry.

I could guess that was the type of jazz snobbery you would be referring to. I probably instinctively avoided those types. I mean jazz is many things but it was dance music and it certainly deserves its place as the classical music of the USA and the respect that goes along with that but no snobbery needed. There are simple jazz tunes as well as complex.

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons somewhat:

The results showed that…

“…net of age, race, sex, education, family income, religion, current and past marital status and number of children, more intelligent Americans are more likely to prefer instrumental music such as big band, classical and easy listening than less-intelligent Americans.”

A second similar survey of thousands of 16-year-olds and their musical preferences was carried out in the UK in the 1980s.

This also found a link between high intelligence and a preference for instrumental music.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2018/07/musical-preference-iq.php

Because so often it is technically substandard, and therefore deserving of the harshest criticism. For example, lots of really popular J-Pop bands "sing" in unison, rather than in multi-part harmonies, with limited vocal range.

This is very true and for a continent such as Asia it is the norm as well as group bands, there are a lot of things that are different, is it crap? “Music is the ear of the beholder.” It all depends on what sounds good to your or what you define as music, of course you have bands that were nominated and looked upon as legends according to the critics, but to the listener it’s all subjective.

You can find technical shortcomings in a vast amount of recorded music. Musicians are often skilled at turning their technical limitations into something unique and really worth hearing: if you can't be open to the sounds considerably short of technical perfection, you have no Joy Division, Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, The Who, Tom Waits, or Bob Dylan. But you do have Joe Satriani.

This is very true.

A system of weights and measures, for example. Take one foot = 12 inches and 1/5280 of a mile. Its all rather arbitrary, but it works for building things. The metric system is based on originally the length of a random iron rod, one meter, which when subdibided by two factors of ten, gives you a cm, which when cubed and forlmed into a water = 1 gram, the energy of which to increase from 4 to 5 degrees is one C. Not as arbirarty, once the initial one meter is granted. And both can be used to do things, and when using the varying degree of arbitrary and understtood premises and relationships, can build roads and water tanks and planes that work, or fall apart. Because they followed the internal rules set up by the system.

I get what you're saying, but all of these are objectively measurable.

If one knows about an artistic discipline, music, one is perhaps in a better position to judge certain artistic merits of that song.

I disagree. They can judge skill, but no one has the ability to judge the artistic merits of anything. Art is subjective. All people can say is whether they like it. Therefore the only way to tell if something is any good, is by the degree to which people who listen to it, like it.

I see this especially among jazz fans, who can be the worst music snobs. And almost inevitably, they don't have a clue but are ready to criticize anything that doesn't fit their personal definition of "real" jazz.

Yeah but Wynton has really gotten much better in this regard in recent years LOL.

Both pitch and rhythm are objectively measurable.

It's a bit of crabby question. Is taste in music any different from taste in cars, food, paintings, wallpaper and clothes. We all have opinions. So when my son says that Uniqlo clothes are crap, should I give him a lecture?

Perhaps it's possible to apply certain measures of quality. One incident stands out for me as a possibility. I was standing on a street waiting for a parade to go by. The parade was late in starting, and there were lots of young kids starting to get grumpy. Then over the speaker system, they played Walking on Sunshine by Katrina And The Waves, not a favorite of jazz critics I imagine. Almost every young kid immediately started dancing and singing along.

If I was asked to compare in quality hard metal song which is basically sound on decibel level of 2 chainsaws running through each other, and any song GACKT has created, I might just feel insulted.

I disagree. They can judge skill, but no one has the ability to judge the artistic merits of anything. 

Whether no one can judge the artistic merits of anything is precisely the point under contention.

I believe you may have inadvertently misstated your position: I think you may rather want to say that everyone has the ability to judge for him or herself the artistic merits of anything they choose, that each person can determine for themselves what they think is 'good' by whatever standard they wish, and no standard is objectively better than any other.

Or, most simply, everyone has the ability to judge what they like and no one can say what is better or worse 'objectively.'

I both agree and disagree with that proposition. How so? Because I believe that line of thinking is overstated, and thus only partly true.

I think just 'cause it's "art" don't mean it ain't bad "art." Further, It think much of what passes as 'art' is not 'art' but rather 'craft."

I use the terms art and craft here in a technical sense. One distinction between art and craft is art is original while craft is not. The lines between the two are blurred, but there is a difference.

people nowadays are like that. they lack tolerance and respect. we all know it keeps getting worse and worse, it seems.

but everything is subjective. and it depends on the person and what they,re talking about.

i think we could separate it in three categories: 1 - good music that it won,t stop being good no matter what someone says or just because some people don,t like it. 2 - debatable kind. 3 - bad quality, and it,s gonna stay that way whether we like it or not.

if someone likes/dislikes a certain song/music, that doesn,t mean it,s bad or good. i get it when people say that music is supposed to "touch" people. and if some song or music "touches" one or millions of people, then it,s already good, but that doesn,t mean it,s better than any other song/music. for example on youtube we see that the most viewed music videos aren,t exactly the best music there is.

this is subjective. but there,s some examples in which we can,t debate about whether it,s good or bad. example: many people don,t like The Godfather, but that doesn,t mean anything. it,s a fact that it is one of the best movies of all time. same thing with music: many people don,t like classical music. that doesn,t change a thing. classical music is full of masterpieces, it,s a fact. i say again, it depends on what we,re talking about.

but in the end, we should all respect each other,s opinions. those who start mocking others, that,s when they lose.

@Black Sabbath

I'm hard pressed to even consider most of Jpop as technically even music

I'm usually critical of any South Korean that reaches these pages, however, I have to admit to watching the "Mr. Taxi" video more than once.

Having also owned the eponymously named Black Sabbath album, and Paranoid, I'm thinking you're not exactly in much of position to argue over what is "music" or not.

Girls' Generation and their fans could definitely dance better to their hits.

Pacific West

JPop. Not KPop. JPop boy bands are entirely derivative.

And originality is one of the only 'objective' quality we can use to distinguish art from non art.

And music is a form of art.

Ya folla?

Besides most sub-genres, the most uptightness/snobbery I have found personally was in the folk orbit. Which was always very weird and almost ironic to me given that folk is really the art of the people; telling the story of what it's like to live in any given time. Where is there any room for conservatism (not speaking of the political variety) there?

A lot of snobbery I heard from folk lovers was against those who didn’t treat it as the art of the people and turned it commercial. Mumford and Sons were attacked as ‘Tory’ music and I remember a mate describing it as the kind of music you put on your iPod for the Boxing Day fox hunt.

Jazz snobbery in my experience is more a sense of Jazz as a higher art form with superior musicians.

Most people who are into any kind of Rock genre trash Pop and esp Kpop but these Kpop have huge supportive followers that overshadow all the followers of all rock genre who also keep bashing into each other, which is why Rock genre has fallen since the late 90s.

Also, there is multi racism on music as well whether through lyrics or concerts.

Western singers/bands have huge concert abroad esp in Asian countries whereas Asian singers/bands don't have huge concert in US or in UK.

There should be All Asian Rock Festivals in US or in UK and become Greater festivals like Fuji or Woodstock ot Glastonbury.

All Asian Rock Festivals 2020 line-up

Slank (Indonesia)

Guckkasten (S.Korea)

Mantra (Nepal)

The Birthday (Japan)

And so on, at least 4 to 5 bands from each participated Asian countries.

example?

Because so often it is technically substandard, and therefore deserving of the harshest criticism. For example, lots of really popular J-Pop bands "sing" in unison, rather than in multi-part harmonies, with limited vocal range. 

Most idol pop is meant to be simple sing-alongs to a catchy tune and “girl next door” type performers. No one is expecting a Beyoncé level performance from AKB. I personally don’t listen to either, because I prefer highly technical metal or simple garage punk.

Ppl have the right to express their opinion even if that means telling others that Aqua (barbie girl), Abba, akb etc are 'crap'. Same with books, food, sports, all forms of arts etc. That's not necessarily snobbery.

'crap' taken wayyy too literally imo. Ppl get their feelings hurt so easily these days.