Photo: PAKITASO
national

13 teen boys caught peeping into girls’ hot spring bath during class trip

193 Comments
By Casey Baseel, SoraNews24

The Japanese school year starts in April, and one high school in Tochigi Prefecture wasted no time in scheduling a two-night class trip for its new crop of first-year students. Their destination: the city of Nikko, nestled in the beautiful mountains and one of the top sightseeing destinations not just in Tochigi, but all of Japan.

Nikko boasts numerous attractions of natural beauty and cultural significance, including Tosho-gu Shrine, dedicated to Tokugawa Ieyasu, the shogun who founded the three-century Tokugawa dynasty, and the picturesque Lake Chuzenji and Kegon no Taki waterfalls.

However, for a large number of male students on the trip, the body of water they really wanted to see was the women’s outdoor hot spring bath at their hotel.

With hot spring voyeurism being one of the most common stock scenarios for risque fantasies in Japan, the teachers warned the students against peeping at the start of the trip, which began on April 24. School staff were even posted outside the entrance to the women’s changing space, to keep any of the boys from trying to infiltrate the area.

However, over a dozen boys (who, as first-year high school students, were 15 or 16 years old) figured out another strategy. Both the men’s and women’s bathing areas at the hotel have outdoor baths, with a wall separating them and providing privacy. So on the second night of their stay, 13 boys who’d entered the outdoor men’s bath climbed up high enough on the wall to look over at a number of their naked classmates.

The female students spotted their peeping classmates and informed their teachers, who also implicated more than 15 other boys as “jeering” bystanders who did nothing to discourage the peepers, even if they didn’t look over the wall themselves. That 30-something contingent is a pretty significant portion of the group, which consisted of a total of roughly 250 students and teachers.

The principal of the school, the name of which has not been released, has offered an apology, saying “We have no excuse to offer our female students who were the victims of this incident. We will be taking measures to ensure this sort of thing never happens again.”

Though the school says the boys will undergo sensitivity lessons, no criminal charges have been filed, but considering the scandal, as well as the fact that not just students, but other female guests of the hotel were in the bath when the boys peeped over the wall, odds are the school won’t be welcome back at the hotel the next time it wants to organize a trip to Nikko.

Source: Yahoo! News Japan/SOON via Hachima Kiko

Read more stories from SoraNews24.

-- Japanese high school teacher in hot water after forcibly giving male student a buzz cut

-- Drunk Japanese vice principal stumbles into girls bathing area on field trip, urinates, loses job

-- Love Capybaras? Now you can take a hot bath while watching them bathe!

© SoraNews24

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.

193 Comments

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Sorry to be so negative on this but, for one, isn't this a crime? two, if what they did was so bad, I don't think the photo was a good choice and finally the article seems to glorify their criminal act. (From a dad with daughters)

-2 ( +28 / -30 )

I'm guessing that "boys will be boys" will come up at some point.

20 ( +30 / -10 )

I’m not sure that 13 year olds can be prosecuted in this country. But a suspension from school definitely seems appropriate.

-11 ( +19 / -30 )

Just shows they have no respect for their female classmates and their privacy, nevermind the other women using the hotel. If I were the parent of one of those girls I'd want them to be punished.

-2 ( +24 / -26 )

@since1981: they need a damn good bollocking, yes. Prosecution is probably a step too far given their age though.

13 ( +19 / -6 )

Thank US and it's Christian puritan influence for destroying what was once a beautiful bathing culture. Just look at Germany and a number of other European countries where mixed nude bathing and sauna is so common nobody really cares about these matters too much. Voyeurs still exist, but for pathological reasons.

24 ( +39 / -15 )

... And yes, 16 year old boys will be 16 year old boys, no matter how outrageous someone finds this.

42 ( +54 / -12 )

Anime and manga are full of peeping toms, foreign anime and manga audiences gets away with an impression that peeping toms are normal in Japanese culture.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

Err...

Did any man out there NOT try to do this when they were 13?

32 ( +47 / -15 )

Geeze imagine that.....teenage boys trying to grab a look at girls. Sounds like normal activity for an adolescent.

Sit down and have a talk with them about respecting young ladies and privacy, make them do some extra clean up or something around the school and move on.

43 ( +48 / -5 )

@ ebisen - another appeal to emotion fallacy. How could Christian puritanism, which would abhor that type of behavior and agree with the separation of men and women bathing, be responsible for the mischievous acts of two dozen teenage Japanese boys?

-6 ( +10 / -16 )

Human nature.

22 ( +28 / -6 )

For once, group think, at its best.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Sensei258 - historically, the naked body was not a big deal, and certainly not sexual in itself in Japan, just like it is seen today in Germany and Scandinavia, for example.

After the war, when bath segregation was imposed by the occupying forces, it had lead to a drastic drop in the number of mixed baths, and that naturally lead to an increase in the number of voyeurism and other certain acts. Not only males, but also females are affected by this. If you have the chance, talk to a German person about their bathing culture, you'll have an eye opening moment.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Hopefully those boys will grow up to be decent people-in face, I am sure they will.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

They were not 13 years old, there were 13 boys of the ages 15 and 16. Not that it matters really. Pretty disrespectful.

-6 ( +11 / -17 )

It's what boys do.

20 ( +31 / -11 )

@ ebisen - you still haven't answered the question how could an ideology which focuses on restraint and self-control be blamed for what these kids did?

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Sensei258 - guess who, and by what reasons imposed segregation in Japan after the second war world? Google is your friend.

1 ( +11 / -10 )

Wonderful, and I thought teenagers only interest was the virtual world.

22 ( +23 / -1 )

Did any man out there NOT try to do this when they were 13?

But we didn't get caught. Kids today, eh!

30 ( +30 / -0 )

boys will be boys, come on now...

8 ( +17 / -9 )

A healthy interest in the opposite sex (real females) might be just the thing Japan needs to get their native population stable.

19 ( +25 / -6 )

@ ebisen - you keep dancing around the topic of bathing culture (which is not in dispute) and avoiding the answer to my question. Those kids are creatures of free will, and did it because they wanted to. They weren't forced by a belief system that they don't even ascribe to.

-6 ( +7 / -13 )

Or are you trying to say that if there were a coed bathing culture Japan, these boys wouldn't have been forced to do what they did?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

ebisenToday 07:11 am JST

Thank US and it's Christian puritan influence for destroying what was once a beautiful bathing culture. Just look at Germany and a number of other European countries where mixed nude bathing and sauna is so common nobody really cares about these matters too much. Voyeurs still exist, but for pathological reasons.

The US did not create Japan's patriarchal culture that demeans women and allows men to think sexualizing young girls is acceptable.

It starts with young men getting away with this kind of behavior, which is then normalized until men see women as sex objects that exist for their amusement and pleasure.

They should have been arrested.

-15 ( +13 / -28 )

heFuToday 08:46 am JST

A healthy interest in the opposite sex (real females) might be just the thing Japan needs to get their native population stable.

A healthy interest does NOT include sexual assault.

And no, you do not have to touch a woman for her to feel she has been sexually assaulted. Obviously I'm not using the word in it's legal sense. The correct word for this crime is voyeurism. What I am saying is that these girls can't feel safe around their male peers any longer. They can't trust these boys won't do something similar, or worse. This is how the fear and distrust of men starts. And that you utterly ignored the implications of these boys' actions for the girls says a lot about how you view women yourself.

-21 ( +10 / -31 )

Teenagers. They probably watch too much anime. Reality is a lot more harsh. Probably lost their chance to ever date these girls now.

-8 ( +6 / -14 )

I can still remember when I saw it. There was a hastily built partition between the boys and girls locker rooms. There for a moment, I looked down in shame and thought I had 11 toes.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Porkys 4 in the making. If we could control the hormonal crazes we would not be human.

10 ( +14 / -4 )

A healthy interest in the opposite sex (real females) might be just the thing Japan needs to get their native population stable.

Yes, but prioritizing one's sexual urges over another's right to privacy is not healthy. A healthy interest in sex should be encouraged, while anti-societal behavior such as this should be discouraged.

-5 ( +10 / -15 )

There are mixed hot springs. When I visit a hot spring there are always fathers with their little daughters.

13 ( +15 / -2 )

Laughs, this makes national news?

24 ( +27 / -3 )

A healthy interest does NOT include sexual assault.

Misrepresentation does not help anything. This was not a sexual assault, and no reasonable court would ever find it was. It was an invasion of privacy, in a sexual manner.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

There are mixed hot springs. When I visit a hot spring there are always fathers with their little daughters.

In such a situation, consent has been given to see the naked people by entering into an area where it is known that people have the right to be naked and to be seen naked. Such consent has not been given to people not in the contained area. As consent has not been given, peeping into their area is a violation of the privacy of those being peeped upon.

9 ( +13 / -4 )

And no, you do not have to touch a woman for her to feel she has been sexually assaulted. Obviously I'm not using the word in it's legal sense. The correct word for this crime is voyeurism. What I am saying is that these girls can't feel safe around their male peers any longer. They can't trust these boys won't do something similar, or worse. This is how the fear and distrust of men starts. And that you utterly ignored the implications of these boys' actions for the girls says a lot about how you view women yourself.

GIT

Chill out, do you realize that you would have to lock up pretty 100% of all males AND a very LARGE percentage of females as well!!!

Do you know what puberty is.....

What is needed here is for a good lesson, not a bunch of silly SJW  sound bites!!

18 ( +23 / -5 )

Not to make light of this, but a reminder that times have changed.

I mean, it wasn't all that long ago that this was a scene in a very popular Hollywood movie.... "Porky's" anyone?

12 ( +14 / -2 )

> StrangerlandToday 09:24 am JST

A healthy interest does NOT include sexual assault.

Misrepresentation does not help anything. This was not a sexual assault, and no reasonable court would ever find it was. It was an invasion of privacy, in a sexual manner.

I made it clear I'm not using the word in the legal sense. I also clearly stated the legal term is "voyeurism".

It IS sexual assault in the sense that the girls did not give consent and the boys forced a sexual act on them. While this would not legally be classified as sexual assault, the result to the girls' psyche is exactly the same. The mental health effects should not be dismissed or downplayed just because no one actually touched them.

-15 ( +8 / -23 )

It IS sexual assault in the sense that the girls did not give consent and the boys forced a sexual act on them.

Again, misrepresentation does not help the situation. It is not a sexual assault, and making up new definitions of the term doesn't suddenly make it so. It was a violation of their privacy, and their right to determine to whom they consent to see themselves naked. Assault is something different. Assault literally (and I use that word literally) means a physical attack. There was no physical attack here.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

I thought this article was a joke when I read the headline. Boys taking a peep at nudie girls - this has been the norm for 83 billion years.

Now if they had absolutely no interest in taking a peep, I'd be much more concerned and should've made the national news.

19 ( +27 / -8 )

"I thought this article was a joke when I read the headline. Boys taking a peep at nudie girls - this has been the norm for 83 billion years.

Now if they had absolutely no interest in taking a peep, I'd be much more concerned and should've made the national news."

What "Speed" says. I totally agree.

12 ( +17 / -5 )

If I were 16 I probably would too

11 ( +16 / -5 )

I mean, it wasn't all that long ago that this was a scene in a very popular Hollywood movie.... "Porky's" anyone?

And American Pie one-upped it by live-streaming to the entire school.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

@ebisen

Yeah, dang those American Puritans for having the audacity to give Japanese women the right to vote and petition their government! How dare they!

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Boys will be boys.

2 ( +14 / -12 )

@strangeland Above you said "we as society have created a very real stigma upon being seen naked" That is just not the case in Japan

Um, are you reading a different article than I am? Try reading the article again, and then come back and tell me that the above quote isn't about as silly as it gets.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

proxy

OK so what about the pre-warning about peeping, the staff posted at the entrance, the girls informing on the boys, the apology and the sensitivity lessons? American SJWs, or Japanese trying to protect the privacy of others?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

If this happened to my daughter I would press charges against the school. No one has the right to see you naked without your permission and from what the article states the school doesn't seem to be doing much about it. Teens are idiots and the ones that did this are particularly gross but it's the school's responsibility to monitor the behavior of their students. They failed to protect the privacy of their female students and that is unacceptable.

-7 ( +9 / -16 )

@Strangeland Please see savethegaijin post above.

Which has any relevance to what? I don’t think stg is in America. No clue if they are American. I also don’t see them talking about America.

Also note the use of the word "gross." It is how 29 year old SJWs use the word. 

So because they use a word you don’t like, their ideas are to be discredited without question nor discussion.

Seems like a pretty flimsy stance myself, but...

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I had it easy ! Everything I wanted to see was right there in the changing room ! Naked guys everywhere ! Didn't have to climb walls ! Just sat down and enjoyed the view !

8 ( +9 / -1 )

I had it easy ! Everything I wanted to see was right there in the changing room ! Naked guys everywhere ! Didn't have to climb walls ! Just sat down and enjoyed the view !

Haha! Half the posters here will never go naked in an onsen again after reading that comment.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Breaking News....13 boys caught perving at females share high fives.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

As some have pointed out here, up until the end of WWII, Japanese baths were not segregated by male and female, but everyone bathed together. The separation was imposed by American occupying forces. However, it is a well known secret that there are still some baths way out in the countryside that are still integrated.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

So for their punishment maybe the boys should be made to line up naked in front of the girls, which would give them a head up on who to date next.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

I just realized the irony of having a picture of a woman in an onsen for a story about boys peeping at girls in an onsen.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

They would see more on any summer beach.

Their actions are understandable but probably not correct. So they are told it's wrong and they shouldn't repeat it. End of story, back to class!

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Aren't girls glad they're desirable

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Boys will be boys...........

2 ( +11 / -9 )

The boys were just acting what their society have taught them to do.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

13 boys who’d entered the outdoor men’s bath climbed up high enough on the wall to look over at a number of their naked classmates.

OK, the wall just got 10 feet higher!

Seriously, though, is this news? Teenage boys trying to get a peep at naked girls?

So for their punishment maybe the boys should be made to line up naked in front of the girls, which would give them a head up on who to date next.

LOL, zichi... That made me laugh out loud! So only the boys who don't get asked out by the girls would be "punished" lol

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Is it a problem? The real big problem will be when boys will not do that.

3 ( +11 / -8 )

@Zichi

It's what boys do.

Indeed.

@sdf_crew_member

Is it a problem? The real big problem will be when boys will not do that.

Coming soon to a country near you!

3 ( +6 / -3 )

StrangerlandToday  09:43 am JST

It IS sexual assault in the sense that the girls did not give consent and the boys forced a sexual act on them.

Again, misrepresentation does not help the situation. It is not a sexual assault, and making up new definitions of the term doesn't suddenly make it so. It was a violation of their privacy, and their right to determine to whom they consent to see themselves naked. Assault is something different. Assault literally (and I use that word literally) means a physical attack. There was no physical attack here.

And once again, the legal term is a completely separate issue.

It starts with the small things, like staring, catcalling, sexualised comments, and peeping.

All of those crimes contribute to women not feeling safe, and having their power and autonomy stripped away little by little.

Saying “no one touched them” minimises the real-world damage done to the female psyche.

It doesn't matter that no one touched them. They were sexually assaulted.

-15 ( +4 / -19 )

sdf_crew_memberToday  01:37 pm JST

Is it a problem? The real big problem will be when boys will not do that.

No. The real problem is when adult men who should know better minimise sex crimes.

-10 ( +7 / -17 )

lostrune2Today  12:16 pm JST

Aren't girls glad they're desirable?

Can I clarify?

You think that women should be happy about sexual assault because being sexually assaulted means men approve of their physical appearance.

is that right?

-11 ( +7 / -18 )

@Armel

I had it easy ! Everything I wanted to see was right there in the changing room ! Naked guys everywhere ! Didn't have to climb walls ! Just sat down and enjoyed the view !

Hilarious!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

And once again, the legal term is a completely separate issue.

Which is a irrelevant point because once again there has been no physical attack and therefore it’s not an assault by the definition of the word, legal or otherwise.

And again, misrepresentation does no favours and is counter productive.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

SpeedToday  09:46 am JST

I thought this article was a joke when I read the headline. Boys taking a peep at nudie girls - this has been the norm for 83 billion years. 

Now if they had absolutely no interest in taking a peep, I'd be much more concerned and should've made the national news.

Can i clarify?

You are saying you would be mire surprised if boys treated girls with respect and didn’t try to peep at them.

You’re further saying that you would be worried if the boys who had no desire to sexually assault women and treated them with respect.

Is that right?

-13 ( +4 / -17 )

Not boys being boys rather children developing into adults, with all the inquisitive impulses and mistakes that are part of life. Sexual assault I would disagree and if that's assault then it's time for burkas all round.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

@girl_in_tokyo

No. The real problem is when adult men who should know better minimise sex crimes.

Sex crimes should never be minimized, but was this a heinous crime?

Perhaps these kids could be given applications for the Junior Anti-Sex League.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Maybe the school should have scheduled a trip to a hot spring where box sexes share the waters, so that no wrong doing would be asserted.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The onsen establisment at fault, because wall is not high enough.

Anyway, the bamboo walls always let a small opening for good eyesight people, especially you'gsters ;)

Girl in Tokyo, are you married ? With kids ? Pretty ? I know you are clever.

Sorry because I feel for you. Forget as if it did not happen. No one hurt, no consequence at all. Boys stopped and punished.

Because it has been happening from our species dawn and will happen in the future whether you like it or not, nothing should have been reported as news.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Hands up for any guy's that would have done exactly this if they were in the same situation when they were 14-15 years old. I am not saying it is right, yes the girls and ladies should have privacy. as for punishment, well a good lecture all about respect would not go a miss.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Girls will be girls.

Girls need to learn about the more extreme boys sooner or later. They cannot expect the authorities to control everything.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

Every teen boy's fantasy.

My first year in Japan at a teachers' hot spring weekend I got pretty drunk and tried to scale the dividing wall. This JP guy started yelling and my teacher buddy pulled me down. Apparently that guy's wife was in the bath. Lol.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

AnonymousToday 02:02 pm JST

@girl_in_tokyo

No. The real problem is when adult men who should know better minimise sex crimes.

Sex crimes should never be minimized, but was this a heinous crime?

Perhaps these kids could be given applications for the Junior Anti-Sex League

Yes, it was a heinous crime. For two reasons.

1) The boys weren't punished very severely, so they will not take the incident very seriously. They won't learn that the privacy of girls and women is to be respected, and that it's fairly easy to get away with doing such things. It will be seen as a funny joke, and no lesson will be learned about respecting women.

2) The girls will learn that they are not safe around their male classmates and that their male classmates can't be trusted to respect their privacy. Since the boys weren't very severely punished, they will also learn that their priavcy isn't very important, and that violating it won't be treated as a big deal.

This is how girls are taught that their privacy and bodily autonomy won't be respected, and even if you report such a crime, the violator won't be punished so there is no use in complaining, and enduring is the only way to survive. This is what is termed "rape culture". Living in a culture that dismisses small sex crimes against women as insignificant or unimportant teaches women that THEY are insignificant and unimportant.

-10 ( +7 / -17 )

Brian WhewayToday 03:17 pm JST

Hands up for any guy's that would have done exactly this if they were in the same situation when they were 14-15 years old. I am not saying it is right, yes the girls and ladies should have privacy. as for punishment, well a good lecture all about respect would not go a miss.

Let me check if I understand you correctly. You are praising these boys for sexually assaulting their female classmates. You also believe that a lecture is appropriate punishment for sexual assault.

Is that right?

-15 ( +4 / -19 )

@girl_in_tokyo

How exactly would you like to see these boys punished?

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Jonathan PrinToday 03:15 pm JST

The onsen establisment at fault, because wall is not high enough.

The boys are at fault because they made a conscious decision to force a non-consensual sex act on their female classmates.

Girl in Tokyo, are you married ? With kids ? Pretty ? I know you are clever.

This is none of your business nor is it relevant to this discussion. Remove, please.

Sorry because I feel for you. Forget as if it did not happen. No one hurt, no consequence at all. Boys stopped and punished.

Because it has been happening from our species dawn and will happen in the future whether you like it or not, nothing should have been reported as news.

If you feel for girls and women who have to endure sexual harassment and assault, then don't attempt to diminish the seriousness of such crimes.

I've personally never experienced peeping, but several of my female friends have. It's terrifying. It makes you feel powerless, and it makes you hyperaware of your vulnerability - this is especialy important in the light of the fact that they boys won't really be punished. The girls now know that no one takes these crimes very seriously, so they will learn how little importance is placed on their comfort and security.

That is has happened before is not an excuse, nor is it reason to allow it to continue.

-11 ( +6 / -17 )

Seeing as so many male commenters here are saying boys will be boys, imagine yourself as a young woman and having to attend school (likely for 3 more years) with adolescent boys who have seen you naked, and who will no doubt remind you of that fact at every opportunity. Are you SURE no punishment is in order? seriously....

1 ( +8 / -7 )

@girl_in_tokyo: This is how girls are taught that their privacy and bodily autonomy won't be respected, and even if you report such a crime, the violator won't be punished so there is no use in complaining, and enduring is the only way to survive.

I think you are projecting your Western values on the situation. Wasn't too long ago in Japan that mixed bathing was common.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

You are praising these boys for sexually assaulting their female classmates.

These boys did not assault their classmates. An assault is a physical attack. They did not physically attack these girls.

Again, it only harms your cause to misrepresent that which you are criticizing, because it makes people question everything you say. Peeping on naked girls in the hotspring is bad in and of itself, it doesn't need to be falsely reported as an assault.

14 ( +15 / -1 )

I've had more fun reading the comments, some . I even question the intelligence of some of the people writing the comment. Can we get real , these are healthy 15 year old boys with the same thoughts running round in their heads as the 15 year old girls. Would there be the same outcry if it was the girls looking over the fence at the boys, I doubt it. Just teenagers being teenagers, thank goodness there are still some fun left for the kids, especially in the society that we have today.

9 ( +16 / -7 )

Scary how most people here in the comments think that's it's normal to break female privacy like that. Because "boys are boys" yea of course boys especially in puberty have thoughts like that we all had that but that doesn't justify the action of actually doing it.

Have you guys ever even talked to females in one point in your life? Do you really think they would think its okay because they're the weaker gender? Imagine if any of you guys have a dauther yourself in that age and would you really think like: "Ah yes it's fine now she seems to be a desirable female. Because that's the only thing woman are there for"

Disgusting

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

It is a sad indictment of society that this is even a news item.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

The saddest thing about all this is that in the world/era we live in, 'this' is considered newsworthy.

Just teens testing boundaries ffs (re authority/rules/girls etc), nothing more, nothing less. Sexual assault?!! smh

Went to summer camps as a kid/teen and it was an extremely common occurrence (girls peeping at us in the changing rooms/showers etc wasnt 'that' uncommon either).

Back then, girls knew how to stand their ground, they knew they had the right to set their own boundaries & they sure did! Where/when did it all go wrong? Soft/bad parenting? Empower your daughters & teach them to fend for themselves! The euro girls i grew up with in the 80s would have emasculated these J boys.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

I'm a guy and in the guy's onsen area I see female cleaning staff coming in all the time. They walk in without the slightest care or "respect" for my privacy.

But I don't feel "violated" because I don't allow myself to feel that.

Women would be better off if they learned the same.

Good ahead and flaunt it with pride.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

I’m not sure that 13 year olds can be prosecuted

This is about 15 and 16 year olds.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

It is a sad indictment of society that this is even a news item.

Um, I think it's the polar opposite. Discussions on topics like this are an important part of an evolving species. When topics become forbidden because you don't like them to be discussed, society stagnates, the people get apathetic, and everyone suffers as a result. Discourse, engagement, and resolution are necessary for evolution.

Not talking about issues like this, because it's blasé, would be a sad indictment of society. It's the sign of a society that is stuck and will be left behind.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

You don't get it. It is about respect, that's the big deal.

You don't get it. Not all people hold the same views on being naked. Did the schoolgirls make a complaint about the boys? Certainly there are widely different views and standards naked. Some American states even have laws about what you are allowed to wear. Mix bathing is still common here.

I think it was a silly schoolboy thing and they should be told not to repeat it and why but that's it.

Are you also saying schoolgirls wouldn't also make the same type?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I am appalled by the comments that condone the behavior of the youths and dismissing the issue as normal. They are incapable of understanding how the women must have felt.

0 ( +9 / -9 )

@zichi... I agree that it was a silly thing for the boys to do and anything more than a stern warning or possible suspension would be too much, but it does say in the article that it was the girls who reported the incident to their teachers.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Aren't girls glad they're desirable

You think that women should be happy

Why is there a question mark - fortunate that you're not one of the girls who have to worry

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Not all people hold the same views on being naked. Did the schoolgirls make a complaint about the boys? Certainly there are widely different views and standards naked.

Your (or 'one's) different views on being naked do not cut it here in Japan. And the girls reported the boys to their teachers.

mix(ed) bathing is still common here.

It is certainly not.

Are you also saying schoolgirls wouldn't also make the same type?

Where does that come from? And what does 'make the same type' mean?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Haaa Nemui

@zichi...

but it does say in the article that it was the girls who reported the incident to their teachers.

Yes, my overlook.

"The female students spotted their peeping classmates and informed their teachers, 

Is that a complaint?"

Afraid some people are blowing this minor incident out of all proportions even calling it sexual assault.

In the male onsen, women attendants are always walking about and even in male toilets when I'm taking a pee, I turn round and there's a woman cleaner standing there.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Is that a complaint?

Maybe not officially speaking but that indicates they weren't happy about it.

Personally I think they're at an age where they should know the boundaries... it is not assault but it is a violation and it's not really that far removed from setting up a camera in a restroom.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@girl_in_tokyo: It starts with the small things, like staring, catcalling, sexualised comments, and peeping.

All of those crimes contribute to women not feeling safe, and having their power and autonomy stripped away little by little.

Saying “no one touched them” minimises the real-world damage done to the female psyche.

It doesn't matter that no one touched them. They were sexually assaulted.

I totally get it. I work out and have been called macho. Often at public baths I go in and men stare at my body. I can feel the eyes burning holes in my buttocks in particular. Some of them appear gay, and I am straight so far. I actually do not like public baths so much just for that reason. Why take a holiday when my power and autonomy will be stripped away, and damage to my psyche. Even though no one has "touched" me yet, I feel sexually assaulted.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

zichi

It’s clearly an issue of consent. This was clearly a violation of privacy, hence the girls’ complaint. Personally I don’t think anything more than a stern talking to is necessary here, and the sensitivity lessons mentioned in the article, but it’s certainly not to be ignored.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

LOL. This is classic boy stuff. I can't believe they made a story of this. Heck, this is what I would do!!

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Just teens testing boundaries ffs (re authority/rules/girls etc), nothing more, nothing less. 

That is the way I see it too. They got cough, then some kind of useful punishment to make them understand WHY they should not have done it.

And more important: learn not to follow/support a group blindly, because we clearly have a group effect in this particular case. Pressure to do it was most likely high for the ones who did not want to.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I think when using a facility like a hot spring other people will see you naked and washing. Mostly, but not always, probably members of the same sex, but there are people even uncomfortable with that. Certainly, many times when I have used them, fathers bring their under five year old daughters who are also naked.

There are always women attendants in the males sections. In the changing rooms or around the pools. Not all all of those women are older sometimes even young women but no one seems disturbed by their presence.

Men and very young boys are using the same changing room.

It wasn't the best idea for these schoolboys to peep over the dividing wall, especially after being warned not to do so. We don't know the true extend of any hurt the girls, and other female users felt because they weren't interviewed for the article. We can only assume what they might have felt.

I personally would not put the incident on the level of sexual assault or even call it the same as hiding a camera in a toilet or changing room.

Had it involved teachers then it would be a different level of incident. The boys have been punished and if any of the girls are not happy with that, then their families can take further legal action against them and the school, which would probably have happened already in a country like America, where suing is the order of the day.

I think if people don't expect to be seen naked by same sex members or opposite sex they might want to think twice before visiting a hot springs. I know foreigners who have lived here for years but never have been to one.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

The online sleuths in Japan are trying to figure out which high school. So far, the word is that it's a prefectural high school from southern Tochigi, possibly this one: http://www.tochigi-edu.ed.jp/oyama/nc2/

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Burning BushToday 06:22 pm JST

I'm a guy and in the guy's onsen area I see female cleaning staff coming in all the time. They walk in without the slightest care or "respect" for my privacy.

This is a false equivalency. You know they are cleaning staff, and you know they are not there to spy on you to get a sexual thrill. Cleaning is their job. They aren't there for any other reason. And, since everyone knows that cleaning staff are in and out of the bathrooms all day, their occasional appearance is expected. If you know they are going to be there, then I don't see how it can be called a breach of privacy.

But I don't feel "violated" because I don't allow myself to feel that.

Women would be better off if they learned the same.

May I clarify? Are you saying women should teach themselves not to be upset by cleaning women in the toilet? Or are you saying women should teach themselves not to be traumatized when they are sexually assaulted?

Good ahead and flaunt it with pride.

This is not a good idea. When women "flaunt" themselves, men assume that means they want sex - from him, right now, and quite often those men behave very, very badly towards those women. E.g., catcalls, sexualized comments, sexual harassment, stalking, and possibly physical assault or even rape. And when any of those things happen, the women are blamed - because, as these men's logic goes, "flaunting it" means "wanting it", And how were the men to know any better... ?

You need to rethink these suggestions.

-3 ( +9 / -12 )

I personally would not put the incident on the level of sexual assault or even call it the same as hiding a camera in a toilet or changing room.

Overall I agree with a lot of what you've said but for the invasion of privacy I do think it's close to setting up a camera. Not as extreme but still not appropriate in any way at all.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Let's say it together now everyone-

No one has the right to see your naked body unless you've given consent.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

School staff were even posted outside the entrance to the women’s changing space, to keep any of the boys from trying to infiltrate the area.

Did they take any measures to prevent peeping the other way around? Girls have been known to try to peep on the boys, too.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

goldorakToday 05:25 pm JST

The saddest thing about all this is that in the world/era we live in, 'this' is considered newsworthy.

Just teens testing boundaries ffs (re authority/rules/girls etc), nothing more, nothing less. Sexual assault?!! smh

Forcing a sexual act upon someone who has not given consent is a form of sexual assault. I use that word not in the legal sense, but in the sense that voyeurism is a sex crime.

Went to summer camps as a kid/teen and it was an extremely common occurrence (girls peeping at us in the changing rooms/showers etc wasnt 'that' uncommon either).

What those girls did was wrong, too. I hope they got into trouble and were punished.

Back then, girls knew how to stand their ground, they knew they had the right to set their own boundaries & they sure did! Where/when did it all go wrong? Soft/bad parenting? Empower your daughters & teach them to fend for themselves! The euro girls i grew up with in the 80s would have emasculated these J boys.

In what sense did they stand their ground that is different from what those girls did in reporting the incident? I'd call that a very brave act, and very definitely from a place of empowerment. I'm proud of them for standing up for themselves. It is not an easy thing to do in a country where women are often dismissed or not believed when they report sexual harassment and assault.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Did they take any measures to prevent peeping the other way around? Girls have been known to try to peep on the boys, too.

At least if they had staff posted outside the women's changing space while the girls were in there then the girls wouldn't be infiltrating the men's changing space.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

RecklessToday 04:29 pm JST

I think you are projecting your Western values on the situation. Wasn't too long ago in Japan that mixed bathing was common.

Yes, mixed bathing was common in Japan, and there still are a number of onesen with mixed bathing. However, when one knows the onsen has mixed bathing, one is consenting to being seen by the opposite sex.

I do not think voyeurism is a Japanese value. In fact, it is a crime in Japan to peep into windows, peep into toilets, or peep into the women's bathing area at onsen. I don't think, then, that it is accurate to say that in criticizing this action by the boys I am "projecting Western values." I don't think it would be inaccurate to posit that respecting privacy is a value in all cultures.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

No one has the right to see your naked body unless you've given consent.

Or perhaps, no one has the right to see your naked body unless you've taken your clothes off in a public place.

The definition of "public place" will probably vary depending on the proximity of 15-year old boys and the age of the undressed.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

I’m not sure that 13 year olds can be prosecuted in this country. But a suspension from school definitely seems appropriate.

I beleive that the age of consent in Japan is 13.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

albaleoToday  09:01 pm JST

Or perhaps, no one has the right to see your naked body unless you've taken your clothes off in a public place.

An onsen is not a public place. It's private property. One gives their consent to be seen naked only to the people who are supposed to be in the same place they are.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

JimizoToday 04:11 pm JST

@girl_in_tokyo

How exactly would you like to see these boys punished?

That's a good question. If I put myself in the shoes of the girls, I would want an apology, Japanese-style, from each boy involved, including the ones who cheered on the main culprits. They should also apologize to the onsen management for causing such trouble. I would also want them to be given a lecture from the principal about respecting women.

Then perhaps they could receive some kind of in-school punishment, such as cleaning, or else be made to sit out of sports/school activities for a time. I don't know what schools in Japan generally do in such cases, but it should be something that makes them understand that the school takes the incident very seriously.

I don't think a simple lecture would suffice, as some people are suggesting, and I do hope that is not the school's only plan.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Boys will be boys ..

I know, I am one.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

This is a false equivalency. You know they are cleaning staff, and you know they are not there to spy on you to get a sexual thrill. Cleaning is their job. They aren't there for any other reason. And, since everyone knows that cleaning staff are in and out of the bathrooms all day, their occasional appearance is expected. If you know they are going to be there, then I don't see how it can be called a breach of privacy.

Actually I didn't know about this at hot springs and in toilets and isn't an item displayed at the entrance nor did I expect to see young naked girl children in the hot pools. I didn't know until it happened. I'm still not comfortable with it. Why not male cleaners and attendants for the male side? More than once I see the woman stirring at my tool.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Boy's have no respect for their female classmates and their privacy, suspension should apply.

Without punishment they will never feel & acknowledge what they did is unfair.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

@ebisen

This is Japan, kindly understand & respect for female and their privacy in this society.

We don't mind mixed nude bathing and sauna, when it is known to every one before entering.

You must understand the news what for???

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Why is it called Peeping Tom and not a Peeping Pete? Nozoki Hiroki.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@ girl...

Clever but stubborn. Stop maki'g it personal thinking the universe thinks and use same views as you.

I have 2 daughters lol.

Tell me when and where you go to onsen next time (so that you get scared).

Japanese are respectful and learning it at school. Boys here have been told it was wrong. I would have given them myself a hard time to think of their actions because I am adult now.

Enough to let think watching a naked body by luck of circonstance or even game (13 kids all at same time, imagine the noise) was something criminal.

And yes, men get naked and are observed by gays or cleaning ladies, without warning. And guss what, I don't like it myself but get over because it's life.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Why is it called Peeping Tom and not a Peeping Pete?

Tom was perhaps a real character said to have looked as Lady Godiva rode naked through the streets of Coventry, England. Not quite a comparable situation to the one here.

http://www.coventrysociety.org.uk/public-art-in-coventry/peeping-tom.html

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@quercetum

Look up “Lady Godiva” on Wikipedia.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Sure, what they did was absolutely inappropriate, and they should be made aware the reality of that.

BUT, have you seen manga or anime targeting that age? Even Doraemon has a common gag on peeping girls in the bath. When it becomes such a common thing to do for their characters, why would they think otherwise?

In the mind of a 13 year old boy, it's probably more up there with giving people a kancho.... just a funny thing boys do.

Life imitating "art" as it were.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

At the first place I believe going to hot spring bath with teens - or even any age - is a mistake. This is a major body transformation time and I would not be surprised that in both boys and girls sides many of them did not feel comfortable bathing naked even within their male or female peers or even adults (not clear if it was private or not). Forcing these kids to do that is more problematic than the peeping itself IMHO.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@Open Minded,

At the first place I believe going to hot spring bath with teens - is a mistake.

I agree. Those commenting on the inappropriate behavior of these boys should perhaps take biology courses in addition to their social studies courses. Or just try raising teenagers.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

It's not the fault of the Boys, but that of the Onsen operator... why make it easy for Kids to climb to the top of the dividing partition. (Reminds me when I was young when we did exactly the same thing in our M/F segregated swimming pools). If anything, the operator should be given an enforcement order to address the issue - since by making the partition scalable, they are creating an opportunity for people to hurt themselves.

For anyone to chastise the Kids of such behavior is simply a denial of youth and growing up. It's with little wonder that Japan is suffering a decline in population with such "Conservative" opinions abound.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

zichiMay 19 10:04 pm JST

Actually I didn't know about this at hot springs and in toilets and isn't an item displayed at the entrance nor did I expect to see young naked girl children in the hot pools. I didn't know until it happened. I'm still not comfortable with it. Why not male cleaners and attendants for the male side? More than once I see the woman stirring at my tool.

If a cleaning woman doesn't properly behave you should definitely report her.

What surprises me is that even though you have been a victim of voyeurism yourself, you still lack empathy for these girls.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

And yes, men get naked and are observed by gays or cleaning ladies, without warning. And guss what, I don't like it myself but get over because it's life.

Don't forget about the urinals in many restrooms that are in plain sight of any passerby.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

kaynideMay 19 11:33 pm JST

BUT, have you seen manga or anime targeting that age? Even Doraemon has a common gag on peeping girls in the bath. When it becomes such a common thing to do for their characters, why would they think otherwise?

You get it! :)

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

There isn't any mention of anything sexual in the article. Odd how many comments assume something sexual happened or might happen.

I've had cleaning ladies in Japanese toilets stare at me while I'm "going." Was that sexual or merely curiosity? Don't know. Didn't care. How does their looking harm me in any way, unless I let it harm me?

Curiosity and a dose of reality. But all of these are different situations than peeping. Nobody will disagree that peeping is wrong. Make each boy caught write a letter of apology and read it to a girl in the school. Doesn't matter who the girl is. Probably best if the girls volunteer to hear it. The act of apologizing will help both groups.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

ebisenMay 19 07:11 am JSTThank US and it's Christian puritan influence for destroying what was once a beautiful bathing culture. Just look at Germany and a number of other European countries where mixed nude bathing and sauna is so common nobody really cares about these matters too much. Voyeurs still exist, but for pathological reasons.

I've heard from many people who have visited the beaches of Spain and Portugal that women walk the shore topless - oh my! and nobody makes any big deal about it. It's considered to be 'normal' and alright. Some guys just have their minds in the gutter no matter what.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

They should've prepare more, (binoculars)

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@albaleo

*Or perhaps, no one has the right to see your naked body unless you've taken your clothes off in a public place.

The definition of "public place" will probably vary depending on the proximity of 15-year old boys and the age of the undressed.*

Obviously not a public place if you have to climb over a wall to see it. Is a bathroom in a shopping center a public place to you? Do these boys have the right to climb over the stall to watch a girl take her pants off?

I'm sure the girls will eventually get over it as they will, inevitably, have to get over the hundreds of other incidents of sexual harassment that they're bound to experience for the rest of their lives.

Natural urges are natural urges but a 16 year old should have more sense than this. I would expect this from 12 year olds.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

*Shame on the onsen for not providing a one-way mirror so the girls could preen while the boys viewed from the other side. Problem solved. Just as in the past where lofts above the woman’s bath offered peep holes for wealthy men. (BTW, all sarcasm)*

I’d make the boys write letters of apology. Not that they will truly mean what they write, but they may learn from the experience.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

When you watch too much of anime... Jiraiya would be so proud of all these Naruto clones :D

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Good to know all these guys posting never ever ever snuck a look at a girl when they were teenagers. Next case.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

theFuToday 12:33 am JST

There isn't any mention of anything sexual in the article. Odd how many comments assume something sexual happened or might happen.

I think I can answer your question. Very often, girls have their first experience at being sexually objectified at a very young age. Most girls have had at least one incident of sexual assault or harassment by the time they reach their teens, e.g., staring, flashing, sexual comments, peeping, and groping. It gets worse the older you get, because as you come into sexual maturity, more and more men see you as a sexual being and project their desire on you even when you have not indicated interest in them. It is very, very common, so much so that we come to expect it and even somewhat get used to it.

Also peeping is a very common kind of voyeurism and is classified under sex crimes, so you know, that people see it as a sex crime really should not be a surprise to you.

I've had cleaning ladies in Japanese toilets stare at me while I'm "going." Was that sexual or merely curiosity? Don't know. Didn't care. How does their looking harm me in any way, unless I let it harm me?

Can I clarify? You are asking why it bothers women when men go out of their way to try and see them naked without their consent. Is that right?

Why women don't want men to peek at them in the bath is something you have a hard time understanding?

Curiosity and a dose of reality. But all of these are different situations than peeping. Nobody will disagree that peeping is wrong. Make each boy caught write a letter of apology and read it to a girl in the school. Doesn't matter who the girl is. Probably best if the girls volunteer to hear it. The act of apologizing will help both groups.

Again, I need to clarify. Are you saying that peeping is "just curiosity" on the part of the boys, and therefore not really a big deal?

I mean, you didn't SAY "It's not a big deal" but you did say "It's curiosity and reality" which I took to mean you think the peeper satisifying his curiosity about seeing women naked is normal (reality).

And are you saying that an apology to the girl is going to make the girl he peeped at feel better about his violating her trust and sense of comfort and safety?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Ougi BlackToday 03:21 am JST

They should've prepare more, (binoculars)

Let me check if I understand you correctly. You are encouraging teenage boys to equip themselves with tools that will aid them in committing the crime of voyeurism.

You are encouraging men to violate women's consent.

Is that right?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

thepersoniamnowToday 07:24 am JST

Good to know all these guys posting never ever ever snuck a look at a girl when they were teenagers. Next case.

You think that the men who say they have never violated women's privacy are outside the norm.

Why do you think so little of men?

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

I might well have been tempted do that kind of thing when I was about 7 but by 16 I was actually getting girls.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@girl_in_tokyo: If a cleaning woman doesn't properly behave you should definitely report her.

What surprises me is that even though you have been a victim of voyeurism yourself, you still lack empathy for these girls.

But nobody wants to see zichi's old, saggy junk.

Women objectify men as well. Just look at the new female lead cast Ghostbusters. I

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Peeping boys, smoking teens are national news. Japan is so peaceful.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

It is national news in Japan when boys (or girls) try to sneak a look at the other sex. Over here, we are bombarded with news of actual sexual abuse, as well as hundreds killed nearly every day in gun violence. I wish we had Japan's problem instead.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

You are encouraging men to violate women's consent.

Someone doesn't understand sarcarrrrmmmmmmm :)

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@1glenn

Hundreds killed nearly every day? Gee, people might think from your comment that 70,000 or 100,000 people or more were being murdered every year by guns in the U.S.

Your problem in the U.S. is that you are bombarded with sensationalized coverage when fairly uncommon events happen, and your comment shows how you've inflated the problem in your mind to five or ten times its actual size.

One factor that helps keep Japan's social problems in check is that there is a lot of attention given to deviant behavior like this at schools. Japan still has a lot of social problems, many of which get swept under the rug far too often, but schools are held to very high expectations to keep the behavior of their students in check. Breakdowns in order in the schooling system are cause for national alarm because schools are considered so central in shaping Japanese society.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@GIT

Not sure how you managed to swing the opinions of so many people here to sympathize more with the perpetrators than with the victims. (Too many posts saying the same thing over and over for me to be bothered to go back and pinpoint how and when.) But you certainly seem to have succeeded.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

mikeylikesit

I think girl_in_tokyo did it by using valid and reasonable arguments from a female viewpoint to call other posters out on their chauvenism and misogyny.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Mikeylikesit

One factor that helps keep Japan's social problems in check is that there is a lot of attention given to deviant behavior like this at schools.

”deviant behavior”? Do you mean foolish? Kidnapping a girl and holding her captive for years is deviant behavior.

“social problems in check”? Do you mean buried?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Zichi,

“Actually I didn't know about this at hot springs and in toilets and isn't an item displayed at the entrance nor did I expect to see young naked girl children in the hot pools. I didn't know until it happened.”

The fact that you were ignorant of what is common knowledge in Japan is, well, your problem. Everyone here knows that young children go into restrooms, public baths, etc with a parent or grandparent of the opposite sex.

“Why not male cleaners and attendants for the male side? More than once I see the woman stirring at my tool.”

Again, people here know from an early age that the ones with the low paying jobs of cleaning public toilets are female. Whether your tool caused a stir in the restroom or whether a cleaner was staring at it, it was inappropriate and you could report it to the management of the facility.

When I lived in Tokyo more than four decades ago I used to frequent a family-run sento public bath. Sometimes the person taking the money and with a view of both sides of the bath (male and female) was the grandma of the family and sometimes her son, and sometimes the son’s wife. No one was surprised or bothered by this as it was understood it was their job. Sometimes when we go to a hospital we don’t know whether it will be a male or a female doctor on duty. But the teenagers in this story were not performing any job and had no business spying on their classmates.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yes, but prioritizing one's sexual urges over another's right to privacy is not healthy.

What privacy? These girls are in a public spring bath showing their bodies to other girls (but ultimately people). It seems a bit late for "privacy" which is supposed to involve, you know, "private" activities.

If anything, can't we say it is kind of a sexism for girls to be completely OK with other girls but go to pieces just because it is a male? How is this different from a person reacting negatively to the mere sight of a black man? Aren't we supposed to be getting over treating people differently based on gender, race or other factors commonly recognized to be outside their control?

@girl_in_tokyo May 19 01:48 pm JST

Here's the question, why should getting looked at make women "not feel safe"? Is there an intrinsic reason for that? Or are girls in choosing to act as if it is the end of the world actually falling into a feudal male trap, of agreeing to a worldview where they are so small and fragile that mere exposure of their naked bodies to male pupils is sufficient to cause permanent damage? I'm not sure how I could ever feel pride in myself if I believe that mere exposure to pupils from the opposite sex will and should damage me or make me feel insecure.

It is actually one solution to the problem if girls managed to view being looked at as a positive rather than a negative event.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

gokai: "'m guessing that "boys will be boys" will come up at some point."

Because you know it's true, perhaps? This was just poor planning on the school's part. Punish the boys responsible, by all means (not the kids who did not look but said nothing), but really. If I were a teenager and could look over a wall at naked girls with ease, I would. Especially if a school preempted the trip with, "Please don't do the following..."

0 ( +5 / -5 )

What privacy? These girls are in a public spring bath showing their bodies to other girls (but ultimately people). It seems a bit late for "privacy" which is supposed to involve, you know, "private" activities

If anything, can't we say it is kind of a sexism for girls to be completely OK with other girls but go to pieces just because it is a male? How is this different from a person reacting negatively to the mere sight of a black man? Aren't we supposed to be getting over treating people differently based on gender, race or other factors commonly recognized to be outside their control?

Here's the question, why should getting looked at make women "not feel safe"? Is there an intrinsic reason for that? Or are girls in choosing to act as if it is the end of the world actually falling into a feudal male trap, of agreeing to a worldview where they are so small and fragile that mere exposure of their naked bodies to male pupils is sufficient to cause permanent damage? I'm not sure how I could ever feel pride in myself if I believe that mere exposure to pupils from the opposite sex will and should damage me or make me feel insecure.

It is actually one solution to the problem if girls managed to view being looked at as a positive rather than a negative event.

Hehehehehe. I'm going with Poe's Law on this one. Right? :)

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Let's not forget their Kids - not Adult men.

Could you imagine the sight of Great Grandma Watanabe getting up and giving them a full frontal whilst telling them to behave themselves ? (I'm sorry, that image could be rather mentally disturbing).

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

mmwkdwMay 20  11:42 pm JST

Let's not forget, that they are Kids - not Adult Men.....

A number of years ago, a kid who was about 12 tried to grope me on the train. My first thought was to grab his Doraemon comic and smack him on the head with it.

Instead, I looked right into his face as I took his hand off my thigh, and smacked his hand, and dropped it into his lap.

Even young boys need to be taught about female bodily autonomy and respect for women.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

If this were the 70's, I probably wouldn't make this comment but...these boys could have all just watched porn hub together in their hotel room instead of being little perverts...

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

What privacy? These girls are in a public spring bath showing their bodies to other girls (but ultimately people). It seems a bit late for "privacy" which is supposed to involve, you know, "private" activities.

Um, by this "logic", peeping over the door into a toilet someone is using the toilet, because they've chosen to expose their genitals in a location that is not in their home. Which is pretty ridiculous. People have the right to privacy that is expected from the facilities in which they have chosen to disrobe. In the context of a hot spring, the barriers around the bathing area mean that the bather has the right to privacy expected by the erection (heh) of such barriers. If the bather was complaining that someone within the barrier is seeing them naked, they have no argument, as the very act of getting naked and entering the bathing area is a implicit consent to be seen naked by those in that bathing area. They do have the right to complain when someone makes the efforts to circumvent those barriers, as the person looking is infringing upon the privacy rights provided through the existence of the barriers. This is why putting a hidden camera in the hotsprings would be an arrestable offense.

You are entirely mistaken as to whom has been given consent to see one naked when they enter a hot spring. People outside of that bathing area have not been given consent, and by a legal definition, what you are claiming as a public area is as not public as a toilet stall.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

If anything, can't we say it is kind of a sexism for girls to be completely OK with other girls but go to pieces just because it is a male?

No.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Here's the question, why should getting looked at make women "not feel safe"? Is there an intrinsic reason for that?

I fully agree with your premise here - that we shouldn't have a problem with being seen naked. In an ideal world, we wouldn't have these hangups.

But that's an ideal, and we live in the real world, where these hangups are real, and beyond that, are the norm in society. As such, those in this current society have the right to expect that their right to privacy, as it exists today, takes precedence over what you think the ideal world would be.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If anything, can't we say it is kind of a sexism for girls to be completely OK with other girls but go to pieces just because it is a male?

Huh? Why is that sexism? If a woman feels uncomfortable with being nude in front of other women, she can go to a private onsen. Sounds like you just want an excuse to see naked girls.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

No. The real problem is when adult men who should know better minimise sex crimes.

No, no.... The problem is the attempt to criminalize human nature. And it IS human nature. Every male on this forum trying to tell you they didn't either successfully sneak a peek, or at least tried to, is lying and simply trying to white-knight their way to acceptance.

Understanding that, it is still NOT proper behavior, nor should it be accepted and needs to be dealt with. Yes, boys will be boys. And any father worth a crap will discuss this with their sons in a manner that informs them on WHY it is inappropriate, disrespectful, etc.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Loki520Today 11:59 am JST

No, no.... The problem is the attempt to criminalize human nature. And it IS human nature. Every male on this forum trying to tell you they didn't either successfully sneak a peek, or at least tried to, is lying and simply trying to white-knight their way to acceptance.

You honestly think committing a sex crime is "human nature", and criminalizing sex crimes involving voyeurism is the wrong response?

You also think that all men have so little respect for women that they have all tried to violate women's privacy in this way? Why do you have such a low opinion of men?

Understanding that, it is still NOT proper behavior, nor should it be accepted and needs to be dealt with. Yes, boys will be boys. And any father worth a crap will discuss this with their sons in a manner that informs them on WHY it is inappropriate, disrespectful, etc.

Wait..wait...wait. It is not proper behavior, and it is not acceptable, but at the same time it is "human nature" and all men do it? Again, why do you have such a low opinion of men?

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

The problem is the attempt to criminalize human nature. And it IS human nature.

It could be said that both rape and murder are human nature - after all it's something that when left unchecked happens a LOT by humans.

By your logic, we should just give rape and murder passes, because otherwise we'd be criminalizing human nature.

Now maybe you have a problem with criminalizing human natures that infringe upon the rights of others to not be murdered and raped, but personally I'm quite ok with criminalizing that human nature.

Every male on this forum trying to tell you they didn't either successfully sneak a peek, or at least tried to, is lying and simply trying to white-knight their way to acceptance.

I don't think any male here has claimed that. If I'm wrong, please provide some quotes.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

OK, I may as well continue sticking my head out:

Um, by this "logic", peeping over the door into a toilet someone is using the toilet, because they've chosen to expose their genitals in a location that is not in their home.

When you are in a toilet stall, the toilet stall usually contains only you, so you have a reasonable expectation that no one else, regardless of their gender, race or otherwise would have line of sight to you. You are indeed in a private space, perhaps even more private in some ways than your home (excluding its toilet).

When you are in a public bath space, you have both given consent and can only reasonably expect to be seen by an unspecified multitude of people (不特定多数 as they say in Japanese). You cannot reasonably designate exceptions that are not allowed to see your body. As for the barrier, it is a bit thin to discriminate solely on position, since any female who wants to look can freely manuever past it. So you de facto are saying males can't see your body ... but saying a demographic can't do something just because they are (Demographic) is prejudiced and is forbidden in modern society.

Discriminating on the basis of ostensible thought tendencies of certain demographics is also discriminatory, and even if you can scan a particular individual for the actual presence of "lecherous" thoughts (still an impossibility with contemporary science), the guarantee of freedom of thought & conscience means you can't act on that basis either - the imposition of negative consequences for mere thought at least interferes with that guarantee.

But that's an ideal, and we live in the real world, where these hangups are real, and beyond that, are the norm in society. As such, those in this current society have the right to expect that their right to privacy, as it exists today, takes precedence over what you think the ideal world would be.

I'll dissent on the privacy bit (reasoning above), and generally am pessimistic of being able to calculate a strong theoretical moral case for the prohibition. (I'm sure the fact I'm not getting that visceral "ick" is obvious, for good or bad.)

Due to the above, the reality that people do get those "hangups" may indeed be the best justification available for those restrictions in the first place. So I can live with those restrictions as a fact of life. Having said that, I must wonder at the mentality of people, such as Girl in Tokyo, trying to make it bigger than it is. Since no actual, physical harm is actually done, the damage is psychological and exactly as big as the victim thinks it is. Why give her reasons to think it is bigger, rather than smaller? Why not do everything in your power to make her think the whole thing is a mosquito bite or less?

For example:

girl_in_tokyoToday 06:06 am JST

A number of years ago, a kid who was about 12 tried to grope me on the train. My first thought was to grab his Doraemon comic and smack him on the head with it. Instead, I looked right into his face as I took his hand off my thigh, and smacked his hand, and dropped it into his lap.

Yeah, that's about how big it has to be. You got offended and you made a proportionate response. The end. The method, by the way, advocated by a hundred anime. Maybe this is the real takeaway people should be getting from anime, rather than "They are 'objectifying' women", whatever that even means.

It is hard to have a universal definition of "Maturity", but I think a centerpiece is Proportionality - the ability to make reasonable assessment as the basis for proportional responses to stimuli. When a woman expands a relatively minor event into a crime, she's not only pushing any psychological splinters into herself harder, but she's not showing the ability to make proportionate responses - by extension she is immature. How anyone wants this to happen to themselves is a mystery to me.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

When you are in a toilet stall, the toilet stall usually contains only you, so you have a reasonable expectation that no one else, regardless of their gender, race or otherwise would have line of sight to you. You are indeed in a private space, perhaps even more private in some ways than your home (excluding its toilet).

Your argument falls apart the moment they bring another person into the stall with them. Suddenly it’s a public area where they have a reasonable expectation that the only person with consent is the person in the stall.

By your logic, it’s a public area and therefore a peeper has a right to look Ofer the wall into the stall.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Privacy has to be respected.

School should not organize teens to go naked in a hot spring bath. Period!

The boys story is a side story.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

School should not organize teens to go naked in a hot spring bath. Period!

Public bathing is a cultural norm in Japan. People do it from a young age. These school trips are not obligatory, nor is the bathing.

I do have to comment that I find your comment somewhat counter to your username.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Strangerland

You are raising the exact right point: it is done because of the NORM!

Has anyone asked these kids if they enjoy it?

Hence I can claim my username without shame!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Yeah, that's about how big it has to be. You got offended and you made a proportionate response. The end. The method, by the way, advocated by a hundred anime. Maybe this is the real takeaway people should be getting from anime, rather than "They are 'objectifying' women", whatever that even means.

"Offended" is not the word I would use for being groped. A better group of adjectives to use are: upset, angry, shocked, sickened, disgusted, repulsed, nauseated, infuriated, afraid, terrified, objectified.

Oh, sorry. I forgot you said that you don't know what "objectified" means:

objectify /ɒbˈdʒɛktɪfʌɪ/

verb. past tense: objectified; past participle: objectified

degrade to the status of a mere object.

E.g., "a deeply sexist attitude that objectifies women."

And again, you are correct, sir. When media encourages sexist attitudes and the objectification of women, it is time to get rid of them.

It is hard to have a universal definition of "Maturity",

Oh, now I understand why you didn't know the word "objectified". You see, there is something called "a dictionary", and you can use it to look up the definition of words. Dictionaries are complied by linguists, who study morphology and etymology, which are the scientific terms for how words are formed and how the meanings of words change over time. Linguists' expertise in this area allows them to accurately determine how words are used by the general population, and then linguists put these words and their common usages and meanings into dictionaries. Thus, there is a handy way to find out what the agreed-upon meaning of a word is - check the dictionary. I did it for you:

mature /məˈtʃʊr/

Fully developed physically; full-grown.

‘she was now a mature woman’

‘owls are sexually mature at one year’

1.1 (especially of a young person) having reached a stage of mental or emotional development characteristic of an adult. ‘a young man mature beyond his years’

but I think a centerpiece is Proportionality - the ability to make reasonable assessment as the basis for proportional responses to stimuli. When a woman expands a relatively minor event into a crime, she's not only pushing any psychological splinters into herself harder, but she's not showing the ability to make proportionate responses - by extension she is immature. How anyone wants this to happen to themselves is a mystery to me.

When a man minimizes sex crimes that are committed against women, I think one can safely conclude that man is 1) a sex criminal himself, which explains the self-serving behavior and attempts at justification; and/or 2) a misogynist.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

@girl_in_tokyo

I believe everyone can agree with your point re adult male attitude vs. female, sexist, misogynistic and so on.

This article is about young teens testing their boundaries, not premeditated and under group pressure.

It is gross but please do not over engineered this specific example.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiToday 06:00 pm JST

OK, I may as well continue sticking my head out:

And I will continue chopping it off. .

When you are in a toilet stall, the toilet stall usually contains only you, so you have a reasonable expectation that no one else, regardless of their gender, race or otherwise would have line of sight to you. You are indeed in a private space, perhaps even more private in some ways than your home (excluding its toilet).

Inaccurate. Another person may be invited to be inside the toilet stall with you. This is called "giving consent."

When you are in a public bath space, you have both given consent and can only reasonably expect to be seen by an unspecified multitude of people (不特定多数 as they say in Japanese).

Inaccurate. There are these things called "rules" which are produced by management of such places, and these "rules" are enforceable, as long as they do not violate the law. These rules specify who may enter the onsen and who may not, along with other types of behavior that management wants to regulate. At gender-segregated onsen, the rules specify that men may not view or enter the women's bath; and the women may not view or enter the men's bath. This means that the people who enter the onsen are both under the protection and the obligation to obey the rules, and management can eject anyone who breaks them.

Thus, by entering the onsen, one has done so with the understanding that these rules must be obeyed. As such, there is the expectation that ALL guests will obey, and there is no expectation that the rules will be violated. However, when the rules ARE violated, there IS expectation that management will enforce those rules and thus eject the culprits who break them.

Therefore is not not at all reasonable to say that people who enter a gender-segregated onsen that have such rules should expect to be seen by "a multitude of people", most particularly, they would not at all expect to be peeped at by the opposite sex.

You cannot reasonably designate exceptions that are not allowed to see your body.

This statement is clearly wrong, since there are laws that specifically protect people from those who would attempt to view other people nude without their consent. This is literally a LAW. Enforced by POLICE. (check the dictionary for definitions if these concepts are unclear to you.)

As for the barrier, it is a bit thin to discriminate solely on position, since any female who wants to look can freely manuever past it. So you de facto are saying males can't see your body ... but saying a demographic can't do something just because they are (Demographic) is prejudiced and is forbidden in modern society.

No one is saying men can't view women's bodies only because they are male. The actual arguement is that every person, male and female, needs explicit consent to view another person, male or female, naked. The fact that this applies equally to both sexes means it is not discriminatory in any way.

Discriminating on the basis of ostensible thought tendencies of certain demographics is also discriminatory, and even if you can scan a particular individual for the actual presence of "lecherous" thoughts (still an impossibility with contemporary science), the guarantee of freedom of thought & conscience means you can't act on that basis either - the imposition of negative consequences for mere thought at least interferes with that guarantee.

As has been established, both sexes must get consent from the person they wish to view naked, so this is not discriminatory.

I'll dissent on the privacy bit (reasoning above), and generally am pessimistic of being able to calculate a strong theoretical moral case for the prohibition. (I'm sure the fact I'm not getting that visceral "ick" is obvious, for good or bad.)

As was pointed out, your reasoning is terribly flawed. I did you a favor and presented a strong case based on strong, logical reasoning so that you may correct yourself. You're welcome.

Due to the above, the reality that people do get those "hangups" may indeed be the best justification available for those restrictions in the first place. So I can live with those restrictions as a fact of life. Having said that, I must wonder at the mentality of people, such as Girl in Tokyo, trying to make it bigger than it is. Since no actual, physical harm is actually done, the damage is psychological and exactly as big as the victim thinks it is. Why give her reasons to think it is bigger, rather than smaller? Why not do everything in your power to make her think the whole thing is a mosquito bite or less?Due to the above, the reality that people do get those "hangups" may indeed be the best justification available for those restrictions in the first place. So I can live with those restrictions as a fact of life. Having said that, I must wonder at the mentality of people, such as Girl in Tokyo, trying to make it bigger than it is. Since no actual, physical harm is actually done, the damage is psychological and exactly as big as the victim thinks it is. Why give her reasons to think it is bigger, rather than smaller? Why not do everything in your power to make her think the whole thing is a mosquito bite or less?

This is just you trying to mimize sex crimes again. So is it A, or B, or both?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Open MindedToday 11:09 pm JST

You are raising the exact right point: it is done because of the NORM!

Yes. That is what "norm" means.

Has anyone asked these kids if they enjoy it?

Yes. That is what "non-obligatory" means.

Hence I can claim my username without shame!

I would like to know if you would be just as proud to put your real name to these inane, foolish comments.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I am happy to live in a happy world without all these self-imposed constraints.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

My faith that the world has not gone totally off kilter is restored. Heck... Norman Rockwell, probably has a picture of such a thing.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

You are raising the exact right point: it is done because of the NORM!

Um, yeah. Meaning it's "normal".

Has anyone asked these kids if they enjoy it?

I have two Japanese kids. Going to the hot spring is one of their favorite things. We go 3-4 times a year. And when I say they love it, I don't mean they enjoy the trip, I mean they are the ones on the internet looking at different hot springs to go to.

Again, your name is open-minded, but you are looking at this through a foreign cultural lens. "I don't like being seen naked, so these people must not as well, and just hide it or something". That's not how it works.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

What a fuss over nothing.

Boys like to peek at naked girls. Gosh, amazing. What's the next great revelation going to be? Bear spotted defecating in forest?

Political correctness seems to have turned some people's brains to mush.

This is what boys do. Always have done. Always will do. Nowt wrong with that. I'll start worryng about the future of mankind when this is no longer the case!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Bill AdamsToday 08:13 am JST

What a fuss over nothing.

Voyeurism is against the law.

Boys like to peek at naked girls. Gosh, amazing. What's the next great revelation going to be? Bear spotted defecating in forest?

Voyeurism is against the law.

Political correctness seems to have turned some people's brains to mush.

Voyeurism is against the law.

This is what boys do. Always have done. Always will do. Nowt wrong with that. I'll start worryng about the future of mankind when this is no longer the case!

Voyeurism is against the law.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Perfect (reciprocal) punishment:

Strip the boys in the hot springs and let the female victims see them naked.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Much ado over nothing. The Boys got more excitement over trying to get a peep then from what they probably got to see. Ten years from now during a re-union party it will be a thing to laugh about by both the girls and the boys. The End. Persist all you want but doesn't make you right. Just annoying.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Boys like to peek at naked girls.

Which is natural.

But what's not right is thinking that the existence of this desire therefore gives the right to infringe upon the privacy of the girls at whom they would like to peak. If the existence of the desire is justification for the infringement to privacy, then that justification can then be extended to justification for rape. After all, if human history and war has shown us anything, it's that a lot of men have a lot of instinct to rape.

It's healthy for boys to have these urges. It's not healthy for us as society to excuse the infringement upon other people's rights simply because these urges are natural.

And before anyone freaks out, I'm not saying these kids need to be imprisoned. But what I am saying is that saying boys will be boys and leaving it at that, is not the appropriate response to this issue.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Knowing the way some boys behave in groups, I would have been prepared for peepers.

A very powerful water pistol might have been good to have at hand. At least I would have sat with my back to the communal screen.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I think you are projecting your Western values on the situation.

??? for goodness sake! This is NOT just western values, I think this kind of thing is not acceptable in pretty much ALL countries!!!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

No man on this comment section ever wrote it was acceptable from the boys.

What was inacceptable is that some women would rhink to punish the boys by declaring them criminals !

Being groped is wrong but there is a difference between a perprator who is 12 and a grown man, and also how groped was done, from one wrong touch to aggressive massage or worse. One needs maturity to assess and see what can happen in life.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Boys like to peek at naked girls.

Which is natural.

being so called "natural" .... doesn't mean it is right or good!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Some of the shrill feminist comments in this article make me laugh - no wonder left wing governments around the world are being elected out of power.

There is a time and place to get very upset about things. This is not one of them.

The boys should face some punishment, a school suspension or perhaps some minor community service, but treating them as criminals for this very, very common behavior is not appropriate. There are bigger fish to fry.

Those calling for criminal justice here need to get a life and I take great comfort in knowing that you can't vote here for politicians that would validate your opinions in any meaningful way.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Jonathon Prin,

”there is a difference between a perprator who is 12 and a grown man”

There certainly is, but why are you bringing 12-year-olds into the discussion? The boys were 15/16, in my opinion, certainly old enough to know better.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

This article is in National and not in the Crime section, which gives us a hint.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I fully agreed with this comments below:

//

savethegaijinMay 19  10:41 am JST

If this happened to my daughter I would press charges against the school. No one has the right to see you naked without your permission and from what the article states the school doesn't seem to be doing much about it. Teens are idiots and the ones that did this are particularly gross but it's the school's responsibility to monitor the behavior of their students. They failed to protect the privacy of their female students and that is unacceptable.

-7( +9 / -16 )

//

And unfortunately the result of the comments you can see (-7( +9 / -16 )) shows the poor mental health of some peoples in Japan.

Very unfortunate for sure.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Jonathan PrinToday 07:29 am JST

No man on this comment section ever wrote it was acceptable from the boys.

What was inacceptable is that some women would rhink to punish the boys by declaring them criminals

Voyerism is literally a crime. It is against the law. But you think declaring that they broke the law and asking that they receive just punishment is unacceptable?

See, literally no one here has even once suggested they should be declared "criminals", as if they ought to be put in jail. That includes me, and I am the most vociferous person on here. You are being hyperbolic at least, and dishonest at worst.

!Being groped is wrong but there is a difference between a perprator who is 12 and a grown man, and also how groped was done, from one wrong touch to aggressive massage or worse. One needs maturity to assess and see what can happen in life.

This is just you trying to dismiss sex crimes against women as harmless.

Your statement about 12 year olds vs. grown men doesn't even apply to this situation. The boys in the story are not 12. They are teenagers in high school, and the girls they peeped at are the same age. That makes them peers, at the same social level. You set up situation that is not even comparable.

Even so, who are you to dicate to any woman, teenager or adult, how she should feel about any kind of sexual harassment or sexual assault? Please, I would love to hear you justify why you think have enough insight into how women feel about sex crimes that we should listen to your opinion and change our behavior. I am waiting.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

paradoxboxToday 09:20 am JST

Some of the shrill feminist comments in this article make me laugh - no wonder left wing governments around the world are being elected out of power.

You think that asking for teenage to receive just and fair punishment for voyeurism is solely a feminist argument?

I would hope for the sake of humankind that every person would agree that voyeurism is a crime that should not just be ignored.

There is a time and place to get very upset about things. This is not one of them.

The boys should face some punishment, a school suspension or perhaps some minor community service, but treating them as criminals for this very, very common behavior is not appropriate. There are bigger fish to fry.

Someone asked me what punishment I felt would be right, and I said that school suspension and community service would be just punishments for these boys. Oh my goodness ---!! Did you just agree with a feminist? Better walk that back, or else you might start wearing pink p-hats and going to woman's marches next. :)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Oh come now, boys will be boys.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@girl_in_tokyo May 21 11:42 pm JST

Inaccurate. Another person may be invited to be inside the toilet stall with you. This is called "giving consent."

I said usually. I am aware that it is possible to explicitly give consent, but one can hardly call this a usual state. Thus, it is reasonable to expect privacy.

There are these things called "rules" which are produced by management of such places, and these "rules" are enforceable, as long as they do not violate the law.

While you may certainly make an argument for this, now it is no longer an attempt to push it by claim to the right of privacy, which was my primary objection in that post. You can argue the males violated an implicit agreement they consented to when they entered the bath area in the knowledge it has such rules.

The actual argument is that every person, male and female, needs explicit consent to view another person, male or female, naked.

The "explicit consent" part is simply inconsistent with the usual facts. When you go into the bathhouse, you don't exactly go around to each person (presumably women) saying "I consent to you viewing my body". No, any consent you gave was merely implicit and general, by you entering the bathhouse.

Further, even if we categorize it as "explicit", you don't really answer my objection. Presumably, you'll give consent to all the women, but not any male. Isn't that discriminatory?

Even in cases of specific mutual consent (such as employments), we are no longer permitted to refuse consent on the basis of gender with few exceptions. This is even in the knowledge that all else being even, females do often mean a relative burden - they usually can't lift as much (even if that's not their main job, most workplaces need manual labor even now and then) and they statistically would cut the careers short more often than men (but it is also Unwert to shove them into these short term tracks). But we are supposed to close our eyes to such things and hire them on an "even basis" anyway.

This is just you trying to mimize sex crimes again. So is it A, or B, or both?

More like I'm giving it the right size, and fighting against incorrect basis for declaring it to be a wrong. If the best you can do when pushed is to argue that the males broke an implicit agreement with the bathhouse owner, or that they violated consent ... well, neither of these generally rise to the level of "crimes". They are civil torts. Besides, in the former case, isn't the victim the bath-house owner, and not the women?

As for voyeurism, I am aware in some places it is criminalized. We are discussing criminalizing it here in HK as well. But that's not the same as it having a good basis in theory.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Any teenager in Japan can have access to hentai mangas glorifying perversion and rape.

Peeping on other girls is much less sordid to me.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The "explicit consent" part is simply inconsistent with the usual facts. When you go into the bathhouse, you don't exactly go around to each person (presumably women) saying "I consent to you viewing my body". No, any consent you gave was merely implicit and general, by you entering the bathhouse.

But that consent is only given to those who have permission to be in the bathhouse. You are trying to argue that because consent has been given to someone, it has been given to everyone.

Sorry mate, don't work.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Kazuaki Shineazaki Today 05:39 pm JST

I said usually. I am aware that it is possible to explicitly give consent, but one can hardly call this a usual state. Thus, it is reasonable to expect privacy.

So you acknowledge that consent is legitimate, and that it is necessary to get consent in circumstances where people have the right to expect privacy. Good.

While you may certainly make an argument for this, now it is no longer an attempt to push it by claim to the right of privacy, which was my primary objection in that post. You can argue the males violated an implicit agreement they consented to when they entered the bath area in the knowledge it has such rules.

Correct.

The "explicit consent" part is simply inconsistent with the usual facts. When you go into the bathhouse, you don't exactly go around to each person (presumably women) saying "I consent to you viewing my body". No, any consent you gave was merely implicit and general, by you entering the bathhouse.

Ahem. If I may quote myself,

"People who enter the onsen are both under the protection and the obligation to obey the rules, and management can eject anyone who breaks them. Thus, by entering the onsen, one has done so with the understanding that these rules must be obeyed. As such, there is the expectation that ALL guests will obey, and there is no expectation that the rules will be violated. However, when the rules ARE violated, there IS expectation that management will enforce those rules and thus eject the culprits who break them.

This means that women have a reasonable expectation that men will not be allowed in and thus, a reasonable expectation of privacy from men.

And peeping without consent is voyeurism, which is a crime.

Further, even if we categorize it as "explicit", you don't really answer my objection. Presumably, you'll give consent to all the women, but not any male. Isn't that discriminatory?

You agreed earlier that consent is legitimate and that consent must be given in circumstances where privacy is expected. But now you are arguing the opposite - if you think giving consent to one person but not another is discriminatory, then you can't claim to believe in the concept of consent.

In other words, you don't believe people have ownership over their bodies. You are arguing in particular that women don't have bodily autonomy, and you don't want women to be able to refuse to consent. Wow.....I find that to be incredibly creepy. When I asked if you were a sex offender, I was kind of joking. Now I don't think it's a joke at all.

Even in cases of specific mutual consent (such as employments), we are no longer permitted to refuse consent on the basis of gender with few exceptions. This is even in the knowledge that all else being even, females do often mean a relative burden - they usually can't lift as much (even if that's not their main job, most workplaces need manual labor even now and then) and they statistically would cut the careers short more often than men (but it is also Unwert to shove them into these short term tracks). But we are supposed to close our eyes to such things and hire them on an "even basis" anyway.

Employment does not involve consent. Consent in this context is "permission". Employment is a mutually agreed upon legally binding contract for the exchange of labor for payment. You are trying to twist the definitions of words to give support to your arguments, which is completely dishonest.

More like I'm giving it the right size, and fighting against incorrect basis for declaring it to be a wrong. If the best you can do when pushed is to argue that the males broke an implicit agreement with the bathhouse owner, or that they violated consent ... well, neither of these generally rise to the level of "crimes". They are civil torts. Besides, in the former case, isn't the victim the bath-house owner, and not the women?

As for voyeurism, I am aware in some places it is criminalized. We are discussing criminalizing it here in HK as well. But that's not the same as it having a good basis in theory.

So you are arguing that voyeurism should be legal. Yeah, the sex offender joke isn't a joke any more. This whole conversation is just gross and creepy, and I want nothing more to do it or with you.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

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