1st Japan reactor goes online since nuclear crisis

I love Japan: they don't muck around.

I have no doubt the first cover-up is already in the works as well.

I stayed here after the tsunami hit the power plant and readily admit to having been quite concerned, even scared, for a while. However this spent fuel storage tank scares me, I don't trust any information good or bad; the time is coming to get either right out of Japan or remain here and move a long way away from Fukushima.

"In the latest problem at the crippled plant, Tokyo Electric Power Co., its operator, said it was still working to restore the cooling system for the pool for spent nuclear fuel at reactor No. 4, which broke down Saturday."

Hey, let's start another disaster while one is still underway! Seriously, I can't think of anyone stupider than the Japanese government at the moment. I really can't. It is a shame that it's gotten to the point that people who are supposed to care about a nation are literally destroying it for short term benefits. I wonder whom they are going to blame all this on in 10 years.

Ohi nuclear plant’s reactor No. 3 is returning to operation despite a deep divide in public opinion.

**Wrong: there is no deep divide. the majority of Japanese do not want nuke electricity**

Last month, Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda ordered the restarts of reactors No. 3 and nearby No. 4, saying people’s living standards can’t be maintained without nuclear energy.

Wrong: Noda ordered restarts to satisfy the greed of the nuclear village and profiteering corrupt politicians such as Noda himself.

But worries about a power crunch over the hot summer months have been growing.

Wrong; Japan is surprisingly coping well without nuke electricity. It did is last year and it can do it again and again. nuke electricity is not teh solution and it has no future in Japan, which is earthquake prone unless something has gone crazy

In the latest problem at the crippled plant, Tokyo Electric Power Co., its operator, said it was still working to restore the cooling system for the pool for spent nuclear fuel at reactor No. 4, which broke down Saturday.

This is in addition to the hot spots that have resurfaced al over Tokyo. Greeed for abnormal profits, lack of accountability and leadership is the main reason Japan will be reduced to a waste, inhabited with a populace in constant fear to be wiped off the world map.

In a year we might get a hint of what actually happened, that is part of the problem. TRUST The downside is so final the upside manageable...I and my company can live with a half day or two of blackouts. Don't imagine the cooling pond hitting critical will result in a similar number of days idle?

Holy cow! The big news was buried deep in this story. No. 4 at Fukushima Dai-ichi is getting hotter and must be taken care of within 70 hours or the temperature will start to rise even more. It indicates efforts are being made right now to get the beast under control. Hope somebody in charge out there is making sure things are going smoothly ... or whatever. Wasn't No. 1 having problems, too, within the past week? A double headheader at Fukushima Dai-ichi is a little too much, isn't it? Wonder if there is live TV coverage of this fiasco somewhere on the tube ...

I'm picturing a poster, with a picture of those people living in cardboard boxes in a school gym hall in donated clothes, with that quote "people’s living standards can’t be maintained without nuclear energy".

Maybe in a year the news won't matter, a plague supersedes NEWS. Hope those in charge do as they do, make money. Nothing better then hemorrhaging amongst all that cash.

edojinJul. 01, 2012 - 04:23PM JST

Holy cow! The big news was buried deep in this story. No. 4 at Fukushima Dai-ichi is getting hotter and must be taken care of within 70 hours or the temperature will start to rise even more. It indicates efforts are being made right now to get the beast under control. Hope somebody in charge out there is making sure things are going smoothly ... or whatever. Wasn't No. 1 having problems, too, within the past week? A double headheader at Fukushima Dai-ichi is a little too much, isn't it? Wonder if there is live TV coverage of this fiasco somewhere on the tube ...

Mistranlation surely, as the rod temperature would have to peak well over 100 and have bubbling boiling. What they likely meant is that the temperatures will raise because it's still radioactive, but AP has never been known to have the best translations available. Considering that they said 70 hours before having issues, that means they have 70 hours before the water temperature reaches 50C, so they have a week before it can get anywhere near releasing radiation.

About the Fukushima reactor, what I read was the cooler broke and the temp is rising something like .26 degrees every hour. It said:

If Tepco remains unable to start up the system or its backup, the temperature could reach 65 degrees by Tuesday morning — the maximum limit specified by safety regulations.

(That doesn't sound like a week to me, basroil)

here:

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120701a4.html#.T_AKnWgsp0c

According to Tokyo shimbun (5:09pm), the cooling system has restarted around 3pm today. The temperature rose to 42.9℃

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/s/article/2012070101000480.html

All is well. Beach season started today.

basroil: "What they likely meant..."

That's all you need to say, Basroil -- you have no idea. In the meantime you chide people who are concerned but defend the companies who clearly are out of control.

zichi: "I don't know what happened following that, but the cops were there."

They probably just looked left and right and had no idea what to do except ask the protesters to 'please cooperate, yoroshiku, sumimasen', then did nothing.

Anyway, joking aside, thanks for the info... I didn't know about the Oi thing, and I'm glad to see people protesting peacefully.

This morning a group of protestors chained themselves to the main gates of the Oi plant. I don't know what happened following that, but the cops were there.

You can watch a live on USTREAM (protesters in front of the main gate of Oi NPP)

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iwakamiyasumi

I sit here safe and sound in a nuclear energy free country and think of my family in Japan.I know only too well how difficult it was for them during the first year of the Fukushima disaster,which even now gives concern for its staus. I had hoped that the powers that be would react to the disaster with the realisation that nuclear reactors will never be guaranteed safe in aearthquake prone zone. So far even with all the reactors shut down ,energy has been produced from alternative sources. There has been restrictions on the production but enough energy to keep everything ticking over. One reactor is to be restarted , People protest and it appears that no one among the powers that be has listened to them

smithinjapanJul. 01, 2012 - 06:33PM JST

you have no idea. In the meantime you chide people who are concerned but defend the companies who clearly are out of control.

I actually have a pretty good idea, I know AP's writing and translation styles, especially their inability to properly punctuate. I also know thermodynamics (which isn't really needed given that you can just guesstimate fairly well given their figures), fuel life cycle, and how to just look up relevant peer reviewed articles. Given Blair Herron's information (http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/s/article/2012070101000480.html), it looks like I was spot on with the correction. It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to figure out when the media is blasting anti-nuclear garbage, I just happen to know a few and I learned quite a bit from them.

You should tone down your attacks, and limit them to ideas not who writes them.

basroil: "I actually have a pretty good idea..."

So you admit you're not sure.

"You should tone down your attacks, and limit them to ideas not who writes them."

Agreed at times I could tone things down, but you're mistaking attacking people with attacking their ideas, since you speak of limiting attacks to ideas. I do recall in the past you said people being evacuated had nothing to do with the Fukushima plant, and that is an example of a foolish idea I attacked. Here you deny others' comments but then go on to say you are not sure about the translation, although you have a 'pretty good idea'.

" It doesn't take a nuclear engineer to figure out when the media is blasting anti-nuclear garbage..."

Nope. Just takes someone of the alternative bias to try and point it out. Please don't try and talk about objectivity, you only come on here and post when it's for pro-nuclear politics (or rather, to attack posters who are anti-nuclear).

zichiJul. 01, 2012 - 06:53PM JST

TEPCO managed to bypass the UPS and restarted the cooling system at 3:07PM on July 1. At the time of the restart, the temperature of the water inside the Spent Fuel Pool was 42.9 degrees Celsius. TEPCO plans to replace the faulty UPS this week.

Last time the problem with the cooling system for No4 spent fuel pool was a burnt out connection box on a pump which would indicate some kind of overload going on there?

Sounds like the No4 reactor still does not have a mains power supply, otherwise why use an UPS system? UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply). The sort of thing used on computers for DATA.

Actually, UPS is used as a buffer for the external grid power, to prevent downtime issues in the case of a blackout or even surge. Both in personal computers and large scale systems it works the same, though large scale is generally a limited cycle generator and a bit of battery rather than just battery. It is most certainly connected to a non-battery power supply, either full time generator or off-site power, and perhaps both. As they bypassed the UPS, we can safely assume it was indeed a fail-safe and not primary power for the pumps. I would be a bit concerned about them running without the UPS during the peak of summer, but they should be fine if fixed before July 20th or so.

Though there can be some sort of overload going on, it is equally probable that the UPS issue was responsible for that as well, especially if it has line voltage regulation. Perhaps an internal short that sent an initial peak and blew out one of the lines and perhaps the feedback data line but not the redundancies. Not a normal issue for sure, but hardly unheard of for UPS supplies to go crazy and take out server farms (in fact, one of Amazon's AWS farms currently has power issues). I'm sure that the more time sensitive reactors 1-3 have more than one UPS each with it's own redundancies.

Blair HerronJul. 01, 2012 - 05:42PM JST

According to Tokyo shimbun (5:09pm), the cooling system has restarted around 3pm today. The temperature rose to 42.9℃

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/s/article/2012070101000480.html

Thanks for the link. Quite clear from that that there was no real issue, though I'm surprised that their safety line is about 60C rather than 50. Perhaps the article was written much sooner when the pumps were first lost and temperature climbed and half a day already passed.

Mmmmm I remember March/April last year posters saying "don't worry TEPO know what they are doing" , turns out they were wrong, now a cooling pond that contains enough rods to make at least half of Japan uninhabitable is having problems. On past history got to be more than a little concerned. After all a full blown meltdown was not admitted till way latter. Other countries knew and reported it but here they were painted as sensationalist. Makes it hard to trust local sources when they have proven to be less than honest in the recent past.

Less than honest..complicit, in bed with, paid by, devious, misrepresentations, dishonest, fooling, lying, getting money from industry, lobbyist...press ticket

The main cooling pump failed, and so did the back-up pump.

nandakandamanda: "The main cooling pump failed, and so did the back-up pump."

Yeah, that sounds about right for TEPCO.

CrickyJul. 01, 2012 - 08:41PM JST

now a cooling pond that contains enough rods to make at least half of Japan uninhabitable is having problems

1) Do you even know where that half of Japan inhabitable thing came from? I can tell you with certainty that the estimated contamination above limits considered safe from one pool is just 5000sq km, assuming full exposure with fuel rod fire, which was done by Brookheaven. And that is a doomsday estimate used for training exercises and reactor design. For that to happen, the water must fall to the level of the rods and initiate at least sporadic nuclear chain reactions. Unit 4's pools still had full water, which had already been boronated in case of any lowered levels. The chance of criticality and large radiation release is pretty much nil.

2) The pool, not pond as pond indicates it's outdoor, never had meltdown, and in fact, it was only listed as level 3, an incident not accident.

3) You should read comments before posting, as you can see from comments hours before yours, this non-issue has already been fixed.

nandakandamandaJul. 01, 2012 - 09:24PM JST

The main cooling pump failed, and so did the back-up pump.

No, the site power failed. And pool cooling isn't a time sensitive thing until water temperature goes above 85C (and even that isn't a seconds and minutes thing, it's an hours issue)

basroil: "...which was done by Brookheaven."

I'm guessing they have no vested interests (sarcasm off).

yes to nuclear power if it means NO black outs. I have kids and a business.

" saying people’s living standards can’t be maintained without nuclear energy"

So why not ask the people if they're willing to change their living standards. Plenty of them outside his front gate!

" saying people’s living standards can’t be maintained without nuclear energy"

They most certainly can, and have. I have not used my air-conditioner for heating or cooling since the disaster of last year. Not once. That said, thanks to the power companies jacking up prices REGARDLESS of the restart it hasn't made all that much of a difference. Point is, people's living standards have changed; the governments excuses and pay-offs have clearly not changed at all.

basroil, "No, the site power failed. And pool cooling isn't a time sensitive thing until water temperature goes above 85C (and even that isn't a seconds and minutes thing, it's an hours issue)"

Well if the main pump and the back-up pumps all run off the same power and that gets so easily knocked out, then the back-up is no back-up and there is no redundancy there.

As to the time before it gets critical, I already posted on that on another thread here long before the above article was published. I reported Tepco's announcements that 65 degrees was their warning temperature, their announcement of 60 hours till then yesterday, and this morning, 4 days till then. The 70 hours in the above article must be a further update. Thanks.

From this article: Meltdown and exploded, destroyed back up generators to keep reactor core cool, latest problem, cooling system failed, JT readers inform us that ,"it is now fixed, then at the bottom,"cracks and warping" of the building that houses "the pool", Plus I left out the scary suff, " if they can't keep things cool"

PS Could TEPCO's figure of "65 degrees" be the temperature above which harmful steam begins to rise from the pool surface?

Very glad that they are sorting it.

And about Ooi. Earthquake specialist Watanabe of Toho Univ, who is himself not even anti-nuclear, has pointed out that the gov did not do the proper inspection of a number of faults under the Ooi plant, and said that this was one reason why the government had no business saying it had determined it was safe to restart the plant. This has been ignored in the overly complaint official media. Watanabe is the same scientist who exposed the faults under Tsuruga.

zichi: "If the temp in the cooling pools reaches this temp, it becomes an "event" which must be reported to both the government and the governor of the prefecture."

In other words, when it happens we won't hear about it for a year and a few months.

Nuclear technology has it's place in Medicine... Not Warhead's, not Power Generator's, not Submarine's, not Ship's and certainly not Aircraft...I say " NO NUKE'S"!!!!!!!!! Make a new way! and live another day! Solar? Hydrogen? Wind? Wave's? There are so many to choose from...

It sounds like the worst is yet to come.

"I sit here safe and sound in a nuclear energy free country" well if its nuclear free then its getting its energy from somewhere else, and ALL other types of power creation are much more deadly, even with disaster. Take fossil fuel burning, it constantly releases radiation and deadly carcinogens into the atmosphere day in day out. Id rather take the incredible minute possibility of nuclear going wrong, then sit next to a coal station knowing every minute Im taking in doses of carcinogens and radiation.

Suggest people look up Nuclear Fusion -look up before making opinion- it makes no nuclear waste, and if anything goes wrong it just stops working. The Brits have been working on it for over half a century, wake up world and get this working. And the fuel? Deuterium, cheap, from water and not radiactive. Imagine a world with that, wars over oil and energy will be a thing of the past.

Smith,

TEPCO reported the cooling function failure in the spent fuel rod the day it happened. They even reported the estimated temperature at 31 degrees Celsius with the increase rate of 0.486 degrees/hr. They investigated the matter and discovered a failure in the USPS and hence, initiated the bypass and the cooling function was restored the following day.

So your "when it happens, we won't hear about" would only apply if you don't keep up with the daily reports which is often the case for majority of the posters here.

nigelboyJul. 02, 2012 - 02:18AM JST

TEPCO reported the cooling function failure in the spent fuel rod the day it happened. They even reported the estimated temperature at 31 degrees Celsius with the increase rate of 0.486 degrees/hr. They investigated the matter and discovered a failure in the USPS and hence, initiated the bypass and the cooling function was restored the following day.

Interesting, within estimated error for my five second calculations. Think you mean UPS though, unless Fukushima likes mail.

First is online and a second to follow. Now this has happened it is time to restart other plants. I would like someone other than a Japanese agency to clear them to reopen. Perhaps the IAEA can come in and inspect the plants. Until new plants are built Japan is going to have and use it's atomic plants. The old and dangerous ones need to be decommissioned. The fuel removed now and sent into storage.

No basroll. I'm blaming USPS. UPS always deliver on time!!

Got to love the protesters within the gates of Oi plant. They are risking their lives as we speak by just being near there.

So you admit you're not sure.

Well actually smith the following sentences after what your quoting are him saying he knows for sure AP's writing and translation styles, especially their inability to properly punctuate. He also knows thermodynamics (which isn't really needed given that you can just guesstimate fairly well given their figures), fuel life cycle, and how to just look up relevant peer reviewed articles. That is what he is claiming he is sure about.

When a person says they have a pretty good idea that is usually a euphemism for them saying they know what they are saying is correct. For example if I say I have a pretty good idea on how to add or subtract that is pretty much a euphemism saying they know how to add or subtract.

Turn off half the lights in the department stores, decrease the number of half full shinkansen trains during the non-commute hours, and raise the air conditioning temperature in all building, and see how much electricity is not used. If is it not wasted in this way and many other ways, perhaps reactors can be shut down. "You can't have your cake and eat it, too." Protesters can have electricity to ride to the protest site to complain about somebody else wasting energy production.

My understanding of the culture is liimited, but I realize protests are rare.

Did they really "dance" at the gate as a demonstration of protest? Civil Danceobediance?

Maybe we should do that at the White House if Romney is President. Surely it would evoke his concern.

So it is a fact now that KEPCO started the reactor no.3 at 9pm 7/1. The speculation that they had already started it without informing us was incorrect. I’m little sad being called “troll”. I was just trying to be realistic with factual data that I could find…

the government was never not going to restart the reactors

Does anyone see a similarity here with Osprey deployment?

In both cases they make a half-hearted show of consulting the people, but when the decision comes it gives the impression that it was all decided in advance anyway.

It seems that Japanese politicians can't see very well the future of what would happen again as long as people are living on earthquakes. The Oii nuclear power plant is one of the most potentially dangerous one because this plant is located right above very active fault that would cause a big earthquake in near future. Scientists disclosed recently that there are 25 very dangerous nuclear plants out of 53 that should be shut down very soon. The Oii nuclear plant is one of them. The government should listen to people and shut down the plant before a bigger disaster.

@Blair Herron: So it is a fact now that KEPCO started the reactor no.3 at 9pm 7/1. The speculation that they had already started it without informing us was incorrect. I’m little sad being called “troll”. I was just trying to be realistic with factual data that I could find…

Yes, those were just speculations. I am very sorry that you were called names. Just because somebody does not agree with your post/opinion does not make it invalid or untrue. So please keep up.

@ Rick Kisa: This is in addition to the hot spots that have resurfaced al over Tokyo.

Where is your proof that they have resurfaced? I believe you are talking about the hot spots in the Mizumoto park in Tokyo, right? Any readings of those areas from before the accident or of 3, 4, 5, 10 month ago?

@Rick Kisa: Ohi nuclear plant’s reactor No. 3 is returning to operation despite a deep divide in public opinion.

**Wrong: there is no deep divide. the majority of Japanese do not want nuke electricity**

If it is true that the majority is against the N-energy (I would rather say it is 50:50 since 90% of my co-workers believe that in the short term Japan has no other options and the larger part of my friends are of the same opinion) still does not mean everybody. So there is indeed a big divide in the public opinion.

Do the rabble of pitchfork-and-torch waving people time on their hands holding signs saying "No Nukes!" understand that a "nuke" is a nuclear weapon, not a nuclear reactor?

“It’s a lie that nuclear energy is clean,” he said. “After experiencing the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, how can Japan possibly want nuclear power?”

Obviously not. It's like someone saying that they're never going to drink water again because someone they knew drowned.

This country has no memories....... Pa ....pa....ra... pa.....pa.... I'M loving it!

Probie, thank you. That was one of the things I wanted to point out. The No Nukes signs are so annoying. I'm not pro or anti, but as someone living in Tokyo I know they are necessary for now.

All these people saying "Well, we did fine last year"... yeah when 40+ reactors were still online and the entire country (especially Kanto) was in extreme energy save mentality. The same mentality is not going to work a year later. Now, I'm conserving power but only at the threat of the rates going up (thank goodness they haven't yet) and the fact that I have a very old energy hog of an air conditioner.

And finally the sea wall, which was the only thing missing from your comprehensive overview of the present somewhat parlous state of Oi, zichi. The sea wall there is realistically too low for large tsunami, but the governor and the politicians must have been satisfied by KEPCO's assurances that it is being built, and by March 2014 there will be a tsunami-proof barrier in place.

Even if it is not yet there for another 21 months. A good risk?

After all, if the ruins of the reactors at Fukushima have little protecting them today from the sea, no-one surely expects another tsunami there.

Which reminds me. Must add the word 'unexpected' to that definition of the nature of Tsunami.

Alita, the power companies are basing their estimates of shortfalls on 2010, which was just about the hottest summer on record, and using those 'what-if' figures to frighten people into NPP restarts.

zichiJul. 02, 2012 - 10:04AM JST

KEPCO stated that with the Oi reactors the max power available for July would be 25.7GW, still not enough to supply the expected demand of 29.87GW.

Today, without the Oi reactors, KEPCO can supply 24.7GW, add the reactors, 2.3GW would equal 27.36GW.

I'm still not convinced KEPCO need to start the reactors to deal with power demand.

That is likely a mis-translation or a quote taken out of context. KEPCO makes heavy use of hydroelectric, which depends on river and dam water levels. Their maximum stable supply (i.e. they can guaranty that level nomatter weather conditions) is only about 2250MW, and their peak (weather is right, dams are full, etc) is 2570MW (think a bit more is possible for short spurts). With nuclear, you'll have between 25GW (stable) and 28GW (weather dependent). Since they will want to save hydro supply for peak days, since they take much longer to recover from heavy use when there's no strong rainfall, they need to get nuclear capacity up before they need the reserve hydro capacity.

Interestingly, the peak estimated use for Thursday is 2270MW (100% of stable load), and today's use a year ago actually is over the production capability for today. I would consider that pretty damn convincing arguments to add more stable production.

nandakandamandaJul. 02, 2012 - 11:32AM JST

Alita, the power companies are basing their estimates of shortfalls on 2010, which was just about the hottest summer on record, and using those 'what-if' figures to frighten people into NPP restarts.

Interestingly enough, KEPCO is actually able to produce less power today than the demand last year. I can hardly say that it's a 'what if' figure if they said that they would be unable to meet last year's demands, let alone 2010.

zichiJUN. 26, 2012 - 12:14AM JST　I think this is because it's No3 reactor is running and generating full power. That's only 10 days after being given gov't permission, which if their original stated periods are correct, KEPCO actually started the No3 reactor even before it received gov't permission.

I don’t mean to be a troll at all, but you say all those people on the footage I provide below, METI vice minister Makino and the workers, are all pretending and acting that this is their first time for the past 15 months to switched it on?

http://www.tv-asahi.co.jp/ann/news/web/html/220702007.html

konjo4uJul. 02, 2012 - 05:33AM JST

My understanding of the culture is liimited, but I realize protests are rare.

Did they really "dance" at the gate as a demonstration of protest? Civil Danceobediance?

Maybe we should do that at the White House if Romney is President. Surely it would evoke his concern.

I would hardly say protests are rare, simply that this type of protest is. In fact, this type of protest is so un-Japanese that it really begs the question of who really organized it.

How incredibly foolish to restart any of these nuclear generators - my understanding is that the building is already compromised, another quake could cause a major radioactive problem - and in such an earthquake prone area! The smart thing to do it seems would be to start evacuating - yesterday!

In fact, this type of protest is so un-Japanese that it really begs the question of who really organized it.

You act like it's a conspiracy... but the fact is that it was "organized" spontaneously through people's concerns about the safety of nuclear power.

A nuclear accident of this magnitude is highly unusual. And the people are responding accordingly.

According to an NHK TV program on nuclear concerns last night, they showed graphs indicating that KEPCO have slightly more power on tap this year (because they have started up more fossil fuel power stations, etc.) than they did at the same time last summer, even with the few remaining NPPs still running back then.

The cooling system has to be restored within 70 hours, or temperatures would have started to rise, spewing radiation.

Stuart haywardJul. 02, 2012 - 12:33PM JST

The cooling system has to be restored within 70 hours, or temperatures would have started to rise, spewing radiation. JT where is the rest of this paragraph from yesterdays artical???

It was falsely accredited to TEPCO people and finally someone spotted the blatant lying by AP. There is actually no scientific reasoning to that statement, since the threshold they are talking about is 65C, and you need fully exposed fuel rods AND a massive fire to achieve that.

zichiJul. 02, 2012 - 12:53PM JST

KEPCO's largest single hydro plant is the Kurobe Dam. It releases water every single day from late June to mid October.

The total power from KEPCO's hydro plants is 1.153GW.

Kurobe and the second largest together are 800MW and 300MW for your figure of 1.153 GW (which was likely from wikipedia which shows only two hydro plants). So why do the other 160 hydro plants not count? According to official figures, hydro (total including pumped) accounts for 24% of their production of 34GW in 2007, so a bit over 8GW is hydro. Of that, I think I remember seeing 3-4GW being from dam and river power generation. Pumped hydro is too expensive using coal and gas, so nuclear will help lower the costs.

@Stuart hayward

From this article: Meltdown and exploded, destroyed back up generators to keep reactor core cool, latest problem, cooling system failed, JT readers inform us that ,"it is now fixed, then at the bottom,"cracks and warping" of the building that houses "the pool", Plus I left out the scary suff, " if they can't keep things cool"

I’m sorry one of your posts is removed, but you mentioned people in Tokyo would need to be evacuated. I want to know if the evacuation would be right away or it would go slowly. What do you think is the worst case scenario?

zichiJul. 02, 2012 - 01:50PM JST

KEPCO still needs to generate overnight power so why would they stop their pumped hydro?

It's not that they would stop, rather they would not use full capacity and instead just use idle power to hydro. With nuclear, they can use the full amount and actually increase electrical peak capacity much more than the simple addition of the nuclear plant capacity. Most of the plants being used to generate base load now are following type, so they don't really produce much more than what's needed.

Dozens of protesters shouted and danced

Makes it look as if they were happy about it...

There is not enough alternate power sources. Oh now you know what it feels like to be a Uchinanchu! This was done on the national level with the consent of the prefecture governor. As you tell me stop whining and accept what the government has decided to do!

My understanding is that the safety of the atomic plant itself doesn't depend on working or not working. Always dangerous in Japan. There are thousands of spent fuel rods inside each buildings in pool, needing the cooling until the heat down. If the great earthquake occurs, the building may be damaged, leading to the cooling system trouble. Fukushima reactor No.4 is extremely dangerous because of the pool unstable.

The government (and TEPCO) has never revealed the effect by the earthquake itself on the cooling system, on the other hand, paying highly attention to by Tsunami. However, Noda decides to work without the reasonable discussion on safety.

I'm in anger to this political process. Who is responsible for the safety? I don' know. They cover up the fact.

sawas, yes, this is what I heard too. There seems to be a terrible fear of admitting that the earthquake itself may have done serious damage to Fukushima. I heard whispers, but they were not taken up. No-one has made a serious, independent effort yet to clarify what damage was caused by what. It's a non-question.

In the present political atmosphere it must be easier to ascribe all major damage to the 'unforeseen' Tsunami itself.

What is with the dancing thing?

nigelboy: "So your "when it happens, we won't hear about" would only apply if you don't keep up with the daily reports which is often the case for majority of the posters here."

Wow, a company reporting something the day of instead of hiding it like EVERY other time something comes up, and trying to bury it when it looks bad enough. Heaven forbid you question a company that has proven time and again not only to lie, but to deny and cause countless people untold grief.

basroil: "That is likely a mis-translation or a quote taken out of context."

So once again it is something you cannot state for certain. It's interesting how you bash anti-nuclear people without thinking twice, then ask them to be objective and not attack posters and state things matter-of-factly preceded by, "It is likely", or, "It might be", etc.

sawasJul. 02, 2012 - 02:29PM JST

My understanding is that the safety of the atomic plant itself doesn't depend on working or not working. Always dangerous in Japan. There are thousands of spent fuel rods inside each buildings in pool, needing the cooling until the heat down. If the great earthquake occurs, the building may be damaged, leading to the cooling system trouble. Fukushima reactor No.4 is extremely dangerous because of the pool unstable.

Sorry, but your understanding is based on nonsense and things you heard on the internet or TV by someone who may or may not be even remotely qualified.

Safety of nuclear needs to be assessed by the reactor type, operational time, size of the plant, size of the passive ultimate heat sink, and whether or not it SCRAMed properly. From an energy standpoint, a running nuclear plant produces several thousand times more than one shut down for 6 weeks, and spent fuel produces many times less than that. If it takes several minutes for a reactor that is on to reach levels that are considered problematic, the spent fuel will take several thousand minutes, and in this case, 70 hours for the limit at which a report has to be sent to IAEA (annoying) and about a week for temperatures to reach actual safe limits (the water reaches just below boiling point). It would likely take several more days before there is any risk of radiation levels increasing. In the case of reactor 4 spent fuel pool, the building itself was intact, and not unstable at all. In an effort to further reduce the chances of anything happening (so they can focus on reactors 1-3) the pool was reinforced and water boronated above normal levels. Even if the water starts to evaporate, with the level of boron in the water, only in-rod chain reactions can be sustained, and since that didn't even happen when the fuel rods were thought to have been close to being exposed, they sure won't when there's several meters of water ontop.

nandakandamandaJul. 02, 2012 - 02:41PM JST

sawas, yes, this is what I heard too. There seems to be a terrible fear of admitting that the earthquake itself may have done serious damage to Fukushima.

There seems to be a terrible fear of admitting that the science doesn't back up such statements. I've had professors that are normally biased against nuclear power do the calculations on effects of the earthquake on the buildings, and not one can actually get anything other than an answer that some of the base slabs moved more than expected and designed for, but within the margin of safety above the design specifications. Anyone with knowledge of the plants seems to agree that the earthquake damage was negligible on the plant itself (but not on substations for one of two backup lines) and it was actually the tsunami AND failure of the surviving generators that were the issue (of 13 generators, at least one was working fine for several hours after, only to suddenly and unexpectedly die for no reason, and another 3 worked perfectly fine but were only connected to 5-6 not 1-4)

zichiJul. 02, 2012 - 03:44PM JST

that contradicts all the official reports from the gov't, TEPCO, IAEA, and more recently, Dr Kenichi Ohmae.

Odd, I just read the Apr 2012 TEPCO report just two days ago and it said exactly what I put.

Anyone who trusts anything from TEPCO is a fool. And that applies to anyone or any entity involved in the nuclear business in Japan (or anywhere!), like Kanden. They have all proven themselves over the years to be liars and only concerned with making money at everyone else's expense.

Thank you for your detailed replies, Basroil. I always enjoy reading them, apart from the sometimes (not always!) slightly condescending tone. Despite your negative ratings here, I do learn much from your posts.

zichi is also a good solid read for me. He does a huge amount of background research which brings to light much that is hidden or only seen darkly. Thanks zichi.

My occasional contribution is to read other Japanese sources and report back when I can.

I hope that between the six or seven serious commentators here on JT we do actually in our various ways approach the truth of the situation regarding the actual/ideal power grid in Japan. Cheers guys!

There are radioactive hots spots all over Japan and no official word on how they got there.

However, the scene of the power plants" damage may shed a clue?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/asia-pacific/new-images-of-the-damaged-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-plant/article1946836/#gallery_1752=1

I keep a picture of the SFP no 4 on my phone to remind me how bad it really is .......and it is that bad!

I am surprised that japanese have proved to the wprld that Adolf Hitler is a demi-god as he killed only one generation of millions of Jews by sending them into Gas Chambers to poison and slowly kill them.Today,the Japanese prime minister for the sake of collecting huge kick backs for his election funds is bent upon poisoning not opnly Japanese for centuries to come but also other Nationals in their neighbourhood by restarting Oi Nuclear reactors which are bound to explode one day or thwe other for several reasons as outlined in scientific articles by experts under the web site,"DiaNuke.org" and their links. a Nuclear explosion in Japan must be considered as a nuclear explosion in any other country as the poisonous pollutants are carried all over the world through the air masses and water resources like the oceans.For more details see web site and other links included in the web site http://tshivajirao.blogspot.in/2012/06/impossibility-of-safety-of-nuclear.html

Basroll: July 2, 2012- 07:53 PM Thank you for your time, and your responce!

@Venlo,

I’m still waiting for your answer on another article. Thanks.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/tens-of-thousands-protest-japan-nuclear-restart#comment_1341388

Wow, a company reporting something the day of instead of hiding it like EVERY other time something comes up, and trying to bury it when it looks bad enough. Heaven forbid you question a company that has proven time and again not only to lie, but to deny and cause countless people untold grief.

Smith. Hiding it like "EVERY other time"? Face it. You don't keep up with the daily reports nor verify such information when the media mentions it. The cooling function in the #4 spent fuel pool is a classic example of you assuming that the company had hid this information when this along with others have been publicly issued and updated on a daily basis.

A 92.8% reduction in nuclear power resulted in a 14.7% reduction in electrical supply. Tokyo saved more than this through common sense conservation. People who were physically capable of using the stairs used the stairs. Those who weren't used elevators. Midway through the summer, the government started urging us to use our air conditioners. If that's a shortage, then let's make it permanent.

A 92.8% reduction in nuclear power resulted in a 14.7% reduction in electrical supply. Tokyo saved more than this through common sense conservation. People who were physically capable of using the stairs used the stairs. Those who weren't used elevators. Midway through the summer, the government started urging us to use our air conditioners. If that's a shortage, then let's make it permanent.

This of course is as a result of people consuming less as well as increasing the power output of thermal plants. However, the increase in fuel costs from 2010 was 2.3 trillion yen. The projection for this year, based on two Oi reactors opearting only, will be 3.1 trillen yen increase compared to 2010 with assumption that the fuel cost remains at the same level as that of 2011.

http://www.npu.go.jp/policy/policy09/pdf/20120507/shiryo3.pdf

warnerbroJul. 02, 2012 - 11:40PM JST

A 92.8% reduction in nuclear power resulted in a 14.7% reduction in electrical supply. Tokyo saved more than this through common sense conservation.

What? It's a 23% reduction in capacity and nearly 80% reduction in base load capacity in some areas. Did you forget that Tokyo had massive blackouts early on due to a loss of capacity? The reason why the government would want people turning on AC is to minimize deaths in the elderly and children due to heatstroke. Few years back it was a pretty big issue.

@Stuart hayward

Don't wait too long.

Thanks, but I’m fine. I can wait. If he/she doesn’t want to answer, that’s fine, too.

Btw, about the MIzumoto Park incident, which city councilor died ? You are not talking about Kabayama Takashi, are you? Please leave your answer on “Patches of higher-than-average radioactivity found in Tokyo park” article. I’m sure the moderator won’t remove your post because it’s relevant. But again, if you don’t want to answer, that’s fine.

Blair Herron: I responded to you on " patches of higher than average radioactivity found in Tokyo" But I can tell YOU have already made up your mind!

@Stuart,

Did I make you upset? ("YOU" with capital letter?) If I did, I'm so sorry. I don't quite understand what you mean by "YOU have already made up your mind!" thing. I have a feeling that you think I'm pro-nuke. I think I have told you that I am neither pro/anti-nuke. I’m trying to learn both sides. If you read my previous posts, you will know how much I was trying to get information to go through this summer without NPPs. I provided several possible alternatives and all. I also provided several links which state how dangerous Oi NPPs could be. You told me that nothing is 100% safe. I agree with you. So I’m trying to be as realistic as possible and trying to know what we could do to go through this difficult situation after 3.11.2011. My grandmother is from Fukushima and I currently live one of the places so called radiation hotspot. So this specific amount of radiation 1.22microSv/h and all are all real concern for me. That’s why I’m trying to get accurate information as much as I could because I want to be safe living here. Again, if I made you upset, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to.

Blair HerronJul. 03, 2012 - 12:47PM JST

My grandmother is from Fukushima and I currently live one of the places so called radiation hotspot. So this specific amount of radiation 1.22microSv/h and all are all real concern for me.

1.22microSv/hr isn't enough to cause your grandmother concern, it's statistically improbable to get even a 0.0001% increased chance for cancer. If she gets cancer, it is because she either already has it(many people postpone checkups and miss the important stage 1 window where most cancers have a high recovery rate) or will get it simply due to age and past exposure to carcinogens.

In your case, a 10mSv/yr exposure rate is nothing to be excessively concerned about. The rates are likely significantly lower in your house, and 10mSv/yr hasn't really had conclusive evidence for cancer rate increases. Regardless, cancer kills around a quarter of the people here, so just because you aren't likely to get it from radiation doesn't mean you should ignore the chance of it.

@basroil

Thank you very much for the info. I should have said "my grandma WAS from Fukushima". She passed away long time ago. But still I have a strong feeling toward people in Fukushima because when I hear them talk in Fukushima accent, I always remember my grandma :)

Blair HerronJul. 03, 2012 - 02:41PM JST

I should have said "my grandma WAS from Fukushima". She passed away long time ago.

Sorry to hear that. I tend to take words at face value, so sometimes I get a bit ahead of myself.

That said, do stay away from cigarettes, you have a higher chance of dying from cancer or other illnesses than you would if every power plant in Japan underwent Fukushima style meltdowns. 80% of lung cancer and 30% of all cancer deaths can be attributed to smoking, so smoking increases your chances of dying from cancer by a whopping 50%. that's about a hundred times more than the chance of just getting cancer from 100mSv/yr (ten times the dose you would get being outside in a 1.22microSv/hour hotspot). I wonder how many of the protestors smoke, and how many are getting second hand smoke (which is just as bad and increases your chances over 5%).

do stay away from cigarettes

OK :)

I wonder how many of the protestors smoke

I don’t know if marijuana causes cancer, but an actor Taro Yamamoto’s sister (both actively involved with the anti-nuclear movement) has been arrested for possessing 1.5g marijuana and 1.7g cannabis resin.

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/entertainment/news/2012/06/30/kiji/K20120630003575900.html

Basroil, please tell us why you say 1.22 microsv is nothing to worry about. Please provide factual evidence.

VenloJul. 03, 2012 - 04:52PM JST

1.22 microsv is nothing to worry about. Please provide factual evidence.

In case you didn't understand the past posts, lets recap.

1) Linear no-threshold models are meant for high dose rates, only supporting evidence comes from Hiroshima/Nagasaki survivors with doses >200mSv for the first year. Even that evidence is not entirely significant for long term cancer rates (only thyroid and blood cancers, which show up within one decade of exposure).

2) If you would like one of many articles (this one is supposed to be open access most others require paid access) on the reduced impact of radiation on repair with low doses, read: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/2/443.full

3) Given the prevalence of smoking, something with no economic function (especially in Japan where taxes are low and health expenditures outweigh the tax received) and much more dangerous than radiation, any effects due to high levels of radiation (100mSv/yr) would be drowned out.100mSv/yr is estimated at 0.8% increase rate of cancer, or an extra 3 cases per 1000 people, while smoking is estimated to cause 30% of fatal cancer cases, or an extra 120 cases per 1000 people. If you would like more reading, check out the references section for http://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/32/1/N33/pdf/0952-4746_32_1_N33.pdf .

zichiJul. 03, 2012 - 06:01PM JST

Power generation reactor No 3 will be postponed until the morning of July 5. It was scheduled in the morning of July 4. According to KEPCO, the vibration of the turbine is exceeding the value recommended by the manufacturer.

Probably has to do with the stator cooling fluid leak earlier on. If water got out, perhaps a piece of metal was bent and is hitting the inside. Could also have to do with the extended downtime. Those things are pretty heavy and made to be constantly spinning, so perhaps sitting idle for too long has caused a tiny but significant bend. Well, either way, it has nothing to do with the reactor and affects all steam turbine generators equally.

Genuine question for basroil, zichi and a handful of others here:

Really impressed with all the in-dept post on the subject of nuclear energy, nuclear rectors and of course the nuclear disaster! Do you gs just paste your info from other sites or are you qualified in some way or another?

Again, this is a genuine question. I'm just trying to figure out how reliable all the of is here. Thank you very much.

zichiJul. 03, 2012 - 07:25PM JST

basroil, and it can also be that KEPCO rushed the cleaning of the steam pipes and turbine so it could also be impurities causing excessive vibration?

A change in steam density (by way of spontaneous condensation around impurities) could increase vibrations, especially if the system is passively damped, but not sure if the amount of impurities there are high enough for that. Rushed cleaning certainly could have introduced loose bolts and other maintenance related problems though (hopefully nobody forgot a screwdriver), and those will increase vibration for something with that much energy running through it.

Thank you, zichi!

I mean that.

Basroil,

1) Fukushima released the equivalent of 168 Hiroshima Atomic bombs, so you need to MULTIPLY your comparison by a FACTOR of 168.

2) not sure why you’re using an obscure post-doctoral dissertation on medical radiography as “evidence” on the effects of RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION. The dissertation doesn’t even touch upon the inverse relationship between age & fallout exposure. You are comparing apples & oranges.

Therefore, I do not understand how you came to the conclusion that "it's statistically improbable to get even a 0.0001% increased chance for cancer" through exposure to NUCLEAR FALLOUT of 1.22 μSv/hr. It just doesn't follow.

3) Please stay on topic. Cigarrettes & RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a TRIPLE MELTDOWN at a NUCLEAR COMPLEX have absolutely NOTHING in common.

FriskJapanJul. 03, 2012 - 07:30PM JST

Really impressed with all the in-dept post on the subject of nuclear energy, nuclear rectors and of course the nuclear disaster! Do you gs just paste your info from other sites or are you qualified in some way or another?

Assume we don't have intentions to deceive (perhaps occasionally do by excluding information, usually not on purpose), but you should always research yourself.

Personally, I'm a mechanical engineer, so things outside that and photography (started in highschool, made a killing in under-grad, been a good but expensive hobby since then) I research or ask friends who specialized in that area (and then look up relevant articles). During my studies I've had to do enough case studies on nuclear reactor design to drive anyone into hating the stuff, not to mention recent bad experiences with Japanese professors that have this maniacal laugh every time they mention Fukushima. Doesn't mean I still don't look up a lot of stuff, which I do (and thanks to still having article access rights, I can look at all the expensive scientific articles for free).

But do be prudent and research. Unless you see research articles or books by people in the profession the book is about, exercise skepticism on par with that of anything else you see on the net.

VenloJul. 03, 2012 - 09:30PM JST

1) Fukushima released the equivalent of 168 Hiroshima Atomic bombs, so you need to MULTIPLY your comparison by a FACTOR of 168.

Not really sure where you get that number, but lets go by what some conspiracy theory people think. These conspiracies on the web say 300 times Hiroshima at Chernobyl, and Fukushima is a tenth of that. Therefore you are looking at at most 30 bombs. I don't have radiation maps for Little Boy (Hiroshima), so lets use The Gadget (also uranium shotgun) instead. It irradiated an area about 30 km wide by 100km long with more than 5mSv. Thirty times that means150km wide by 500km area with the same amount in Japan. I haven't seen any evidence supporting that in Japan.

And hate to break it to you, but Little Boy was estimated to have released 8x10^24 Bq of radiation straight into the atmosphere. In comparison, Fukushima is estimated between 600 and 900 PBq without noble gas radiation (perhaps several times that with). That's ten million times LESS radiation than Little boy alone.

2) not sure why you’re using an obscure post-doctoral dissertation on medical radiography as “evidence” on the effects of RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION. The dissertation doesn’t even touch upon the inverse relationship between age & fallout exposure. You are comparing apples & oranges.

Last I remember, the only difference between a post-doc and a tenured professor is one gets paid more and respected more for the same results. Radiation is radiation, the source used doesn't matter in the linear no-threshold models, and thus disproving it in any way disproves it non-the less. You yourself stated only 1.22microSv/hour, without mention of the source, and thus I responded with the effects of radiation on cellular repairs, which can lead to cancer that is what people are worried about with nuclear power.

3) Please stay on topic. Cigarrettes & RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a TRIPLE MELTDOWN at a NUCLEAR COMPLEX have absolutely NOTHING in common.

Actually they have much in common in terms of biological effects vs public opinion, in that people don't have their priorities straight. Both smoking and radiation can cause cancer, and nuclear power based radiation and smoking can both be banned. Nuclear power is simply safer and billions upon billions of times more useful, yet people chose to protest it without knowing anything about risks and shooting down any ideas that compare the risks with other risks in their lives.

Now what I have twice answered your questions, please stop.

You yourself stated only 1.22microSv/hour, without mention of the source

The source is from me, but venlo doesn’t want to talk to me because he/she has only ONE motive here. I was so naive!!! The things are all clear now.

please stop

Maybe I can stop them but I like 団子三兄弟

Basroil,

1) It is a PUBLISHED FACT that Fukushima released the equivalent of 168 Hiroshima A-Bombs. The information was released by The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency of Japan itself. Here are the sources.

<http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20110828a4.html

<http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/fukushima-cesium-leaks-equal-168-hiroshima-bombs-says-report

2) I disagree.

Nowhere in the dissertation does it say it has anything to do with radioactive fallout (which includes caesium, plutonium, strontium, iodine, etc. ) Aside from the fact that it never mentions the word NUCLEAR FALLOUT, it does not include the INVERSE PROPORTION of AGE vs. EXPOSURE to radioactive fallout.

Bottom line, you are comparing apples & oranges. The dissertation IS NOT APPLICABLE TO NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS.

3) I repeat. Please stay on topic. Cigarrettes & RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a TRIPLE MELTDOWN at a NUCLEAR COMPLEX have absolutely NOTHING in common.

VenloJul. 03, 2012 - 10:46PM JST

1) It is a PUBLISHED FACT that Fukushima released the equivalent of 168 Hiroshima A-Bombs. The information was released by The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency of Japan itself. Here are the sources.

Just because it's published doesn't make it a fact, especially if it's published by a newspaper. They are talking about Cs137 only in that article, which requires a fairly long time to make and is generally thousands of times larger in reactors than in bombs. In fact, Cs-137 makes up a tiny amount of the tiny fraction of total radiation released by a bomb as fallout, while it makes up 4% of Fukushima non-noble gas radioisotopes. What that article you pointed to didn't say, is that the total radiation release from a bomb is 10 million times larger than the total radiation release by Fukushima. Also doesn't tell you that the levels of Cs-134 are millions of times higher at Fukushima than a nuclear bomb, due to the short time duration of a blast compared to controlled reactions.

3) I repeat. Please stay on topic. Cigarrettes & RADIOACTIVE FALLOUT from a TRIPLE MELTDOWN at a NUCLEAR COMPLEX have absolutely NOTHING in common.

In case you never noticed, neither does a meltdown and Oi have anything in common based on your ideas.

Somehow that headline just doesn't read right.

Instead of "Saikado hantai" they should be shouting "Noda 変態".

I more useful to stay on JT?

Of course you are, but maybe not other 兄弟. Tag team others is pathetic.

Problems with turbine balance in #3 necessitating a very slight postponement of power generation, now starting perhaps on the 9th?

Thank you for your detailed replies, Basroil. I always enjoy reading them,

I agree. I really appreciate his/her effort making things easier for me to understand while those things must be explained in thousands of pages with all technical words and s/he dumbs it down to one paragraph.

Despite your negative ratings here, I do learn much from your posts.

I don’t really care about the ratings because some of his/her negative ratings are from a single person?