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© KYODO2 Japanese to sue gov't for same-surname rule after marriage
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CrucialS
It's funny how money cures psychological damage so easily...
Yubaru
This initially was put into law due to potential discrimination against a Japanese spouse taking a foreign name and living in Japan.
But times have changed, and this couple has a valid argument, in my opinion, (well the stress part, I dont know), they should be able to have the same right
Daniel Naumoff
Some people should have their most rights restricted.
Aly Rustom
If you think that marrying a foreigner is somehow advantageous in Japan you need to get your head checked girl.
Or talk to those that have. I can assure you, it is no walk in the park
Goodlucktoyou
As @Aly says. It is hard being a foreigner here. I'm surprised, this is probably the only law that we can benefit from.
Yubaru
There is no benefit to foreigners really, it's the Japanese spouse that benefits. There was a time here not all that long ago, that Japanese spouses of foreigners were in fact discriminated against just because of taking their spouses name.
They were refused housing, considered unqualified to work, or because their spouse was a foreigner, somehow different and considered not able to fit in with the rest of the collective.
In effect it's a very discriminatory law.
MarkX
i can understand being fond of your maiden name, but claiming psychological stress from making the change seems like a stretch. Also, I feel bad for the husband when she claims she won’t have a child as she doesn’t want the child to have to use the father’s name.
Luddite
No one should be forced to change their name.
CrucialS
No one forced them to get married and register their marriage with the gov't. If you want to play the game then be prepared to play by all the rules.
Yubaru
Really now, are you Japanese by chance? Japan has some of the most archaic laws on the books, many still dating back to the Meiji Era. Status-quo?
Laws serve a purpose, but there are times when they need to be changed, and this is one of them.
Andrew Crisp
I fail to see what the big deal is - apart from someone wanting money.
pacint
Simple reason is that the 'Family Registry' allows only one name, of course it could be changed and all other documents that rely on it.
As women and children need to be registered in the Head of House's registry.
Aly Rustom
Doesn’t matter. The idea that the Japanese are complaining about about something the foreigners or the spouses of foreigners have is ridiculous anyway you look at it and it is a spit in the face of spouses of foreigners, mainly Japanese women who suffer tremendously due to their choice of marrying a non Japanese.
Of course it should be. But if they want to quote foreigners and their rights they have to look a little more closely at the whole picture
pacint
The reason why it differs is because foreigners are on a different registry, we can't be in the Japanese one as it only allows Japanese citizens to become heads of households.
So yes discrimination can be beneficial at times.
Goodlucktoyou
@pacint. I'm a foreigner and the head of the household on the Family Register. Also separate surnames.
SwissToni
When we got married Mrs Swiss took my surname and is noted as head of household on the Koseki as such. 30 years on however she is still forced to use her maiden name at work. It's been a constant irritation.
kohakuebisu
For the hassle involved with this case, 2.2 million yen is hardly a fortune, so the gold digging accusations are unrealistic if not ridiculous.
Families in real life come in all shapes and sizes that change with the times. The Japanese family register tries to shoehorn every relationship and every family into a single model from way back when. No government, and especially not a government promoting marriage in the face of a falling population, should force people to change their name.
Pukey2
This really is no surprise in a country where a roughly 100-year old rule over-rules any DNA evidence as to who is or isn't the biological father of a child.
When it comes to surnames, the Chinese and Koreans seem to have more respect for an individual's name.
Scrote
They are certain to lose, as the supreme court always puts the Meiji civil code ahead of the constitution. I sometimes wonder if supreme court judges have even read the constitution.
Yubaru
Before you start making blanket statements like this you really should do a little more checking. Because you are wrong here when it comes to Japanese spouses who marry foreigners. Typically speaking a foreigner will have their name entered UNDER their spouses, so in effect there are TWO separate names on the single tohon.
You also confuse the municipal registration with the koseki tohon. The head of household has nothing to do with registering a childs birth.
ALSO..this next statement is 100% false!
No foreigners who are married to a Japanese citizen are registered UNDER the spouses name and are on THEIR tohon. Foreigners DO NOT have their own registry, as the koseki tohon is used as identification of nationality.
Again you are confusing the jumin hyo, with the koseki tohon. The two are totally different.
After the abolition of the "gaijin" card and change over to the residency card, from that point foreigners who live here were able to get their own, individual, jumin hyo.
Foreigners, again, can not get, and do not have their own family registry, or koseki tohon, unless they naturalize and become citizens.
Yubaru
My apologies, there should be a comma between the "No" and "foreigners",
It should read "No, foreigners who are married to a Japanese citizen are registered UNDER the spouses name.....
Yubaru
Again the head of household, or setai-nushi, is with the local municipality and not on the koseki tohon. The koseki tohon is a totally different document. The tohon, is registered with the "honseki" address of the person registered, and no foreigner has a "honseki" in Japan unless they have naturalized. Also the "honseki" is many times different from the current address, gen-jushou, of the person registered.
Yes, you can have separate surnames on the setai-nushi, but that has nothing to do with the registry.
Wrembreck
I didn't change my name, it would've meant changing my passport, drivers license, credit card, gaijin card, bank account, remittance account and pension plan. I work so taking time off to do those things would be a major pain. Also I imagine I would've needed to let my phone and internet provider know of the name change. Changing your name IS a big deal.
Aly Rustom
They are quoting a so-called right that foreigners and spouses of foreigners have that they don’t. I didn’t mean that they were quoting something a Foreigner said. Forgive me if it came out that way
Well we are going to have to agree to disagree. If you’re going to quote conditions that are somehow favorable to foreigners you have to address the other side of the equation Which is that foreigners and their spouses suffer tremendous amounts of discrimination in Japan. So for these people to say “oh we want the same rights as foreigners and their spouses do because after all why do they have this and we don’t” is pretty offensive.
Well, we’ve pointed out that voting is a right enjoyed by the Japanese which we don’t have, and we wish that to be available to us. Is anyone listening? I don’t think so. *I applaud the fact that your spouse is very understanding. But what I found very offensive was the fact that they were quoting a right at our spouses have without addressing all the other baggage that comes with it.
Luddite
Your wife's lack of empathy is sad.
Anyway, all those who think the case is silly and a waste of time still haven't told me why it's OK to force a person to change their name.
toshiko
Lucky if you can make your family registration new. People whose family registration began more than 300 years before Meiji Ishin, is stuck within that ancient registration. Like Toshiko's fourth daughter, etc.
@yubaru, not setai. Shotai.
albaleo
@Yubaru, perhaps I'm nitpicking, and also I may be out of touch with recent laws, but I think foreigners married to a Japanese are "noted" on their spouse's koseki, but are not "registered" on it. This is what gives a Japanese spouse (usually wife) the ability to use their husband's name. This happened after the 1985 law change. Before that, a Japanese woman couldn't "officially" use her foreign husband's name.
I don't think it's a waste of time. But an argument could perhaps be made for forcing a family name after marriage. If you decide to marry, aren't you creating a family? And if you have children, isn't it nice for them to know their family name? But perhaps we should allow the creation of a completely new family name at the time of marriage. (Hmm, perhaps we could start a whole new industry of "family naming advisors".)
Jerome_from_Utah
Not sure why Japan adopted the European custom of changing the bride's name. Korea inherited the Family Registry system from Japan but kept the Korean custom of the bride retaining her surname. As Alf would say "No problem."
toshiko
There are many antiquated laws in Japan. It takes a lawsuit to change. Some are funny. Do you people know there are two moral lows since 1947? They are ignored but they exist.
toshiko
Before feudal era was over, non samurai did not have family name. So, Meiji Gov't, decided everyone should have a family name. That was the beginning of family name in Japan. Japan did not copy other country's system. That is why they call their family name first. Takayoshi Kido ordered the first pm Hirofumi Ito.
Yubaru
Go get a copy of your tohon, you are not "noted" you are registered as the spouse.
Yubaru
They are talking about Head of household or 世帯主 setai nushi,
cleo
Don't have a tohon of my own, not being Japanese an'all, but on Mr. cleo's tohon I'm mentioned in a footnote stating my name and the time and place our marriage was officially registered; I'm not 'registered as the spouse' as in, my name is next to his. It isn't.
Luddite
Yup, I'm just a footnote on Mr Luddite's tohon, too.
Yubaru
http://www.sakura-ilo.com/mokuteki/marriage3Koseki.html
Please take a look at that link, scroll down the page and take a look at the two entries circled in red. The one at the top is the Japanese spouse, the one at the bottom is the foreign spouse.
That is NOT a notation, that is an actual registration as the foreigner as the legal spouse of the Japanese citizen.
There is an older version of the koseki tohon, but the one in the link is the one currently used.
If there is a divorce between the couple there will be a notation to the left stating that the person has been removed from the tohon, but their name will still appear.
Psyops
This ant hill certainly got bigger on these posts lol. I just go with my view: the Japanese will do what the Japanese will do. It gets very annoying seeing all the lecturing from "modern country" foreigners whining how archaic Japanese laws are. If you are one of those people, why are you still living in Japan??? If you can't accept the laws, culture and the way of life in Japan and instead try to shame the Japanese to change then I think you should vacate the premises and go live in a "modern country".
cleo
Exactly; the Japanese spouse is included under 戸籍に記録されている者(Persons registered in this koseki), together with family details (parents) while the non-Japanese is in a footnote under 身分事項(Matters relating to status). The birthdate given there is that of the owner of the koseki, i.e. Tokyo Miyako, who got her own koseki when she married her American Harry Potter in Heisei 20.
Compare that with a koseki where both spouses are Japanese;
http://www.city.fukuoka.lg.jp/shimin/kusei/life/kosekidennsannka.html (scroll down a bit)
In the new computerised version, each spouse is entered under 戸籍に記録されている者, with their respective family details; in the old version, the 夫 and 妻 are included side-by-side. Mr cleo's document has entries for him and our son (daughter having been erased on marriage), while I'm but a note above his entry.
Charles Noguhi
@Aly: ‘Japanese women who suffer tremendously due to their choice of marrying a non Japanese.’
Suffer, by marrying a ‘non Japanese ‘[sic]?
So why and how to they suffer any more or less than other Japanese women?
I am surprised no one else picked up this tidbit of racism.
Aly Rustom
Go ask your wife Charles. (I'm assuming you are married to a Japanese, Hence your indignation)
I think Yubaru already answered the question above for you.
In addition to that, MY wife was frequently asked intrusive questions during interviews regarding her background because she used the surname Rustom. We were not allowed to register our marriage in a branch office like the rest of the Japanese, but had to go to the main office. I could go on if you like...
Strangerland
Your annoyance is understandable, but really, it's good on their part that they are being diligent ensuring that children are traveling with both parents' permission.
In the future, you may want to get your wife to write a letter of consent when you travel alone with your daughter. I do it every time I travel alone with my son. I get her to write out consent, and sign it, then I copy her passport with her signature on it for comparison. I also get her to include her own number, as well as the name, phone number and address of any place(s) we'll be staying on the trip.
The ironic thing is even getting my wife to write all that, I've never actually had to produce the letter. But I'd rather have it and not need it, over being in a situation like yours and not having it.