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2 youths on motorbike going wrong way on expressway killed in collision

90 Comments

Two youths riding a motorbike the wrong way along the Chugoku Expressway were killed when their bike collided with a car.

According to police, the accident occurred at around 10:30 p.m. Sunday near Shiso in Hyogo Prefecture. The 400cc bike burst into flames upon impact, Fuji TV reported.

The two boys, aged 17 and 16, were from Toyooka. They were taken to hospital where they were pronounced dead. The driver of the car they collided with was uninjured, police said.

Just before the accident, police said they received a call from a motorist reporting that a motorbike was going the wrong way along the expressway.

After the accident, the expressway was closed for about four hours.

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90 Comments
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Morons.

At least no one else was killed.

28 ( +32 / -6 )

R.I.P. We've all (except clamenza, obviously) done all sorts of dangerous things at 17, it's not the time and place to judge these two boys.

-26 ( +13 / -39 )

Hope the driver is not judged to be on the wrong since it is an accident involving a car and a bike and in Japan the bigger object is wrong or partially wrong The article is lacking in facts as usual, where did these kids get a 400CC bike ? Rest in peace kids.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

We've all (except clamenza, obviously) done all sorts of dangerous things at 17,

Excuse me? I've done some pretty scary stuff, but driving the wrong way on an toll road at 10:30 PM is not one of them. This is the time and place to judge them, this was a preventable incident, it isnt a tragedy, they knowingly were taking risks that any normal person would not even consider.

It is next to impossible to go down the wrong way on the toll roads here.

I feel sorry for their parents, as they are going to have to live down their children's idiocy along with having the pain of losing them as well. There is absolutely no reason for these deaths to have occurred IF they had been driving the "right" way.

31 ( +34 / -4 )

Sheesh, the outrage!

-21 ( +3 / -24 )

Why do they say motorcyclist when everyone knows it's bosozoku?

30 ( +30 / -0 )

No doubt the car's driver will have to pay a ridiculous sum to the families of the two teens. Because, according to the judge, they didn't do enough to avoid the accident.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Sheesh, the outrage!

Yes, I would be outraged at the fact that my family could be killed or seriously injured by such idiots. I definitely did wrong things at 17, but trying to kill someone wasn't on my list.

18 ( +18 / -0 )

Stupid is as stupid does.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Better them than someone else. I feel for their families but perhaps if parents showed more interest these kids would still be alive.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

This is pure Darwinism, no sympathy, except for the driver who must be traumatized. Knowing bosozoku, these losers probably didn't even have their headlight on.

14 ( +16 / -2 )

wasn't there just a bike accident with 2 dead, 2 critically injured in Hyogo?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Once again the armchair critics have determined that these two were stupid, and didn't just make a mistake, based on no evidence one way or the other.

Who needs a court, judges and lawyers? A few details should just be read to JT posters, and let them determine guilt or innocence based on their fantasies.

-10 ( +6 / -16 )

No great loss to these idiots.

7 ( +14 / -7 )

Readers, please refrain from posting insensitive remarks like this. Two people have died.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

gotta agree with strangerland. this news is so simply written that we don't know why they were driving the wrong way on the expressway. i know bosozoku are idiots, but they aren't known for this though. it was late at night and maybe they misread the road sign. you often hear of old people doing the same thing on expressways.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

Not uncommont to see bicycles or sometimes sccoters going wrong way or on wrong side of road. Accidents are inevitable.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The Chugoku expressway, along with the Meishin, is one of the most congested trunk roads in Kansai, even at that time in the evening. These two entered the exit ramp while ignoring the signs and the toll booths, not to mention the streams of traffic flowing in the opposite direction, and continued riding.

A bike can stop ant turn around easily. Therefore, that was no accident.

12 ( +12 / -0 )

Yes, but what evidence do you have that it wasn't an accident? All I see is a whole lot of supposition.

-18 ( +1 / -19 )

Is there some condition, like dyslexia, where you don't know which direction you are going?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Is there some condition, like dyslexia, where you don't know which direction you are going?

Pure speculation here, but I suspect they were trying to dodge the toll fees.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Sure they could have been bosozoku but at the same time they could have been 2 kids who took a wrong turn, more info needed before we all just the gun.

RIP and glad no one else was injured.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

16 and 17 year olds are not even able to be licensed for bikes that can go on the highways. Not only did they deliberately flout those rules, they decided to go the wrong way. At night.

If was only an "accident" in the sense that they probably didn't intend to get hit and die.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Just as Yubaru points out, access to Japan's freeways system is notoriously restricted, even to people who actually want to use it; There simply is no way to avoid the toll gates. That these two managed to get onto the wrong side of the freeway suggests some very willful defiance of copious signage, warning lights, and formidable physical barriers.

Or they got onto the freeway the correct way and somewhere along the way decided to see what it was like to just turn the bike around and drive against traffic.

Either way, there's little doubt they made a conscious decision to do something that ultimately ended up with them dead.

We'll never know what motivated them to do something so decidedly stupid, but make no mistake that this kind of bad judgement is most certainly not typical for the average teenager.

11 ( +11 / -0 )

Not only did they deliberately flout those rules

Please show us this insider information you seem to have that proves this wasn't an accident.

Or were you just spouting off a theory with no evidence to support it?

-17 ( +0 / -17 )

There simply is no way to avoid the toll gates.

But quite often where there is a single large toll gate on the expressway, the next 4 or 5 following exits will have no exit gates. I wonder if they were getting on at the unguarded exit and then driving a bit in the wrong direction until they could cross over to the correct side? It would be a way of using the expressway without paying.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

There simply is no way to avoid the toll gates.

Being pedantic here, but this is not always true. Some of the exit slip roads on the Kyoto Jukan do not have booths, nor do some of the exits on the Osaka loop, if you can afford to use that.

That said, it's unlikely one's mistake would go unnoticed for long...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Best news of the day!

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I have little pity for these two, but do agree that they should not pay such a cost for being so stupid. It was only a matter of time, though, and I have no doubt accidents to less severity happen all the time. I see these clowns go through red lights, helmets hanging from their necks (not on their heads), revving the scooters, weaving left and right across the middle lines of the road, etc. So, again, while I feel a LITTLE bit sorry for these two they completely brought it on themselves, and I am just glad no one else was injured. I hope others learn, and it would be nice to see police crack down on bosozoku and other idiots who ride like these kids do (and are SUPER easy to find doing so).

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Please show us this insider information you seem to have that proves this wasn't an accident.

Of course it was an accident. They didn't intend to get hit and die, and the car driver didn't deliberately intend to hit them.

If you're going to attack everyone for discussing and, yes, speculating (horror of horrors!) about the implied conclusions of the circumstantial evidence presented, and get all huffy-puffy if someone can't "prove" otherwise, you probably should get off internet discussion boards, but that's what posters on discussion boards do.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

But quite often where there is a single large toll gate on the expressway, the next 4 or 5 following exits will have no exit gates.

Anything is possible, I suppose. But I've used the Chugoku Expressway for the better part of 13 years, and I've yet to see an exit that didn't end with a toll gate of some sort. Also, as far as crossing over is concerned, there's a concrete barrier between the opposing lanes along the entire length of the Chugoku, with intermittent crossover points reserved for emergency vehicles that are blocked by a metal gate, bar, or chain. If these two were looking for one of these crossover points, they would have had to travel for 10 minutes or more to find one. That's a lot of opportunities to die.

it would be nice to see police crack down on bosozoku and other idiots who ride like these kids do (and are SUPER easy to find doing so).

AMEN! And it's not like these fools are hard to find. The police seem to lack any will to address the issue with any seriousness.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

I bet when they were riding on the normal crowded roads they were revving their engine and going anywhere they choose because most cars drive much slower on the busy streets.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

A harsh lesson to be learnt by all bosozoku... One which I'm sure we all wish could have been taught in a different manner (preferably by their parents). Condolences to both families.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

please refrain from posting insensitive remarks like this. Two people have died.

And now the "morals" police try to interject their thoughts into the process but allow all sorts of other bs. Balance is not a word known too well.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Please show us this insider information you seem to have that proves this wasn't an accident.

Of course it was an accident. They didn't intend to get hit and die, and the car driver didn't deliberately intend to hit them.

That of course is not what I was speaking of. I'm looking for any evidence that shows they purposefully went the wrong way on the expressway, and didn't end up there by accident.

So many posters seem to have taken this as a given, without any evidence one way or the other, and have condemned these two. But if they ended up where they were without intending to be there, and then ended up dead as a result, they deserve sympathy, not condemnation. Now I'm not saying that it was an accident or not - I'm simply pointing out the fact that we don't have the information to know whether they intended to drive the wrong way on the road, and therefore condemning them as such is irresponsible, and potentially disrespectful to the victims.

If you're going to attack everyone for discussing and, yes, speculating (horror of horrors!) about the implied conclusions of the circumstantial evidence presented

Attack? I'm simply asking for people to provide some proof of their speculation. That's not an attack, it's asking people to support their speculation.

and get all huffy-puffy if someone can't "prove" otherwise, you probably should get off internet discussion boards, but that's what posters on discussion boards do.

Where have I gotten 'huffy-puffy' [sic]? I've simply asked people to back up their speculations. If that's going to bother you, then you probably should make sure you know what you are talking about before you speculate. Because that's what people having rational discussions do.

-14 ( +0 / -14 )

@LFRAgain

I had a quick look at Google Earth. It seems like you might be right about the exit toll gates in this case, since both exits east and west of Shiso have gates (they are really far apart). There is also a parking area close to Shiso, so maybe they were able to sneek in there and then get on the expressway?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Could it be that they have been watching to many action movies where the super hero is chasing a major criminal and they are driving down streets the wrong way? may be, if this is the case these movies are shot with professional stunt drivers and its rehearsed time and time, or they could just done it as a prank/stunt just for fun, but unfortunately it went horribly wrong for them.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

M3M3M3,

There is also a parking area close to Shiso, so maybe they were able to sneek in there and then get on the expressway?

That's certainly a possibility. Many parking areas do offer smaller-scale toll gates that lead to local communities located near the expressway that are small enough to not warrant a full offramp. Whatever the case, getting onto the Chogoku from the wrong direction took some work and the chances of it being accidental are very slim.

What baffles me is why these two decided to just continue to speed down this stretch fast enough for their bike to burst into flames upon impact. The Chugkoku is a well enough travelled expressway at most times of the day or night that they must have had multiple opportunities to think, "Hey, maybe we should do something to keep from getting killed." Reducing their speed, keeping to the shoulder, umm... stopping and turning around? Death wish much?

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@ebisen Maybe they made an innocent mistake. Easy to do at night and mix up oncoming head lights with cars on the other side of of the xpressway. If compassion and understanding is what you want. JT is not the place to be. The people commenting are generally very narrow minded and judgmental. Thats though a very accurate reflection of society in general. Sorry.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

@ebisen Maybe they made an innocent mistake. Easy to do at night and mix up oncoming head lights with cars on the other side of of the xpressway.

Pull the other one - it's got bell on! When was the last time you or anyone else on JT drove the wrong way along the highway? It's not like a one way city street, you know!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Pull the other one - it's got bell on! When was the last time you or anyone else on JT drove the wrong way along the highway? It's not like a one way city street, you know!

That doesn't mean that they did it on purpose.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

no answer as to why or even asking how, but what to do now so that there isn't a repeat, for instance how did they end up going the wrong way, what can be done to prevent a motorbike entering oncoming traffic. Unfortunately since this is Japan and law, the driver will be blamed 10% perhaps this too is wrong in the system as this case and needs to be looked into and taken into consideration rather than placing any % blame on the driver. Outdated system and road management is what needs to be considered as the families of both boys mourn the loss of life.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Did they have lights on? Were they wearing helmets, and if so, were they proper helmets or the toys ones favoured by bosozoku?

I feel sorry for the driver.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@ebisen Maybe they made an innocent mistake

I have some land for sale...interested?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Pure speculation here, but I suspect they were trying to dodge the toll fees.

Pure speculation, they has yellow spiky hair and flashing tail lights.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

So they got on an expressway the wrong way & some here think it may have been an accident on their part. Um, do you know how easy it is to turn a bike around? It's not a car...it doesn't have a turning radius the size of the expressway, you can turn a bike around in barely it's length.

I feel extremely sorry for the driver of the car. Under Japanese driving law they will (almost definitely) be held 10% responsibly financially & will additionally have to live with knowing they were in a fatal accident & no doubt had to deal with the trauma of seeing the carnage first hand.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

So they got on an expressway the wrong way & some here think it may have been an accident on their part. Um, do you know how easy it is to turn a bike around? It's not a car...it doesn't have a turning radius the size of the expressway, you can turn a bike around in barely it's length

Assuming they didn't panic. People don't think clearly when they are panicking. We have no evidence to show whether this was an accident or on purpose.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Ultimately its a very sad story... there are two families going through a lot of grief right now. But I do wonder also, if Japan does Toxicology tests in cases like this.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I like your "stick to it" attitude Strangerland, but I think you are going too far to defend these blokes. Or, you haven't been in Japan long enough to get the true experience that comes along with bozozoku. Or maybe they just don't have them in your area, in which case, where do you live? I'll let them know they haven't been serving all of Japan with their exploits. But good for you for sticking to your guns.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I am 110% in agreement with Ebi and Strange on this one. We all have made mistakes, and many of them are to play lawyer, jury and judge without any real evidence.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Japangal, scary, isn't it? Even animals show more compassion than some people.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Articles about misbehaving youth always draw loud, angry cries of condemnation on JT. Nothing new here.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Greed Ebi and Strange.

Innocent until proven guilty...but then again, that really only works in America.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Gonna go out on a limb here...When I first drove into LA (never been there before, and I was exhausted from driving all night) I was on the 5 and it was very foggy. I missed my exit, and stopped on the shoulder about 100 yards past it. I thought (briefly) about just backing up on the shoulder. But visions of semi trucks appearing out of the fog to flatten me caused my survival instincts to kick in, and I just drove to the next exit. I don't know why those kids were doing what they were doing, but they died for it. A little sympathy wouldn't hurt would it?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Ebisen- I wonder if you'd still take that frivolous attitude if the two boys hit your car (with wife & kids??) causing a fatal accident to your dear ones. What they did was Russian roulette. Plain and simple. Doing dangerous things when we're in our teens and driving down the highway the wrong way for kicks doesn't compare.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I like your "stick to it" attitude Strangerland, but I think you are going too far to defend these blokes.

I haven't defended them once. They may have been doing it on purpose for all I know. But that's the point - I don't know, and neither does any other poster here. There has been no evidence shown whatsoever that says these two definitively went the wrong way up the expressway, or didn't. All we know is the facts: two kids on a motorcycle went the wrong way up an expressway, got into an accident, and died. Everyone condemning them beyond that point is just showcasing the dirty side of the internet, and really humanity as a whole.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

There has been no evidence shown whatsoever that says these two definitively went the wrong way up the expressway,

Did you happen to read the first line of the article?

Two youths riding a motorbike the wrong way along the Chugoku Expressway were killed when their bike collided with a car.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

My experience with motorbike and scooter users as a car driver in Japan has been one of near universal dread. I see such riders all too often weave in and out of traffic with no indicator used, cut across lanes forcing other road users to brake harshly or swerve, and ride along the edge of the road cutting across red lights and snaking through pedestrians crossing the street.

Their riding habbits only get worse the more of them there are in a single group, at a crossroads yesterday I was waiting at a red light, three riders from the oncoming road pulled out into the road then crossed, the third rider swerved directly in to the oncoming lane and cut back in to the correct lane at the last second, I suppose they think this sort of behaviour is cool, it isn't, not even slightly.

While these two riders may well be completely innocent and there's no way to know for sure why they were there and in that lane, the fact that they were suggests against innocence and points more towards willful flaunting of the law.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Strangerland - Once again, you're absolutely horrified to have to use your own judgement.

Common sense and experience, my friend. Common sense and experience.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

All we know is the facts: two kids on a motorcycle went the wrong way up an expressway, got into an accident, and died.

If only "facts" existed in such a sanitized vacuum. It's more like:

Two teens on a motorcycle, one a construction worker, the other an unidentified company employee, somehow gained access to the oncoming traffic lane of an 80kph stretch of a highly restricted expressway they were not licensed to drive upon, rode in the wrong direction long enough for another motorist to notice and call the police, then slammed head-on into another oncoming vehicle, causing their bike to explode into flames and throwing the boys to a death caused by blunt force trauma usually associated with high-speed collisions of this nature.

Those are the facts. That posters marvel at the very obvious lack of good judgement displayed by these two teens isn't indicative of any sort of Internet-borne empathy deficit or downward spiral of humanity. Rather, it's people reading what's been reported, weighing the salient facts against personal experience and what they already know to be true *(i.e., one can't get onto the wrong side of the Chugoku Expressway without really, really making an effort to do so),* and then making an educated guess.

There has been no evidence shown whatsoever that says these two definitively went the wrong way up the expressway, or didn't.

Are you being serious here? They slammed head-on into a car traveling the correct direction. Yeah, the evidence not only exists, but is also pretty compelling.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Are you being serious here? They slammed head-on into a car traveling the correct direction. Yeah, the evidence not only exists, but is also pretty compelling.

I wonder if he even knows what he was writing here....

There has been no evidence shown whatsoever that says these two definitively went the wrong way up the expressway, or didn't.

In the very next sentence wrote....

All we know is the facts: two kids on a motorcycle went the wrong way up an expressway

Which seriously befuddled the heck out of me.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Which seriously befuddled the heck out of me.

And rightly so. I wasn't too sure about what he meant either.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Obviously some posters here think they are being heady for playing Devils Advocate. They'll argue the earth doesn't revolve around the sun on silly technicalities.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Obviously some posters here think they are being heady for playing Devils Advocate. They'll argue the earth doesn't revolve around the sun on silly technicalities.

What? I thought the earth was flat and people who go underneath it fall off into space!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Strangerland, you obviously are not familiar with the situations in Japan and the bosozoku and the set up of the expressways in Japan. I have riden at night and have witnessed first hand the groups riding their bikes on the wrong side of Yoko Yoko, Daisan Keihin and other main highways. Did they deserve to die? Of course not. It is traggic! Parents should never have to bury their children. But there are two sides. The driver of the car now has to live the rest of his/her life knowing that he/she killed two children. Finally, until the media learns how to report the news, posters will always be judgemental and/or speak from first hand experience.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Finally, until the media learns how to report the news, posters will always be judgemental and/or speak from first hand experience.

since1981 - The media in this case did report the news as it happened. But Strangerland will still be too scared to use his own judgement and common sense unless one of the kids comes back from the dead to give the inevitable answer "we were just horsing around and didn't think we'd get hit".

Well the dummies got hit, and thank god they didn't take any innocents with them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Strangerland, you obviously are not familiar with the situations in Japan and the bosozoku and the set up of the expressways in Japan.

It has nothing to do with my familiarity (or lack thereof) at all. I just don't subscribe to the theory that 'others have done it, so these guys definitely did it'. I'm not into the 'condemn until proven innocent'. If can be shown that these guys were going the wrong way on purpose, then I'm as ready to condemn as anyone. But I'm not going to condemn them based purely on someone else's wrongs. That's irresponsible.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I just don't subscribe to the theory that 'others have done it, so these guys definitely did it'. I'm not into the 'condemn until proven innocent'. If can be shown that these guys were going the wrong way on purpose,

Nice try at slipping out, even here what you write covers your butt pretty well in your mind right? No way to know if they did it on purpose, they are dead.

You want proof, any sane person sees car lights heading towards them would stop or pull over to a safe area to see, "Hey am I driving the right way? " They KNOW they are on the toll road, so if they see lights heading towards them, they pull over, turn around and go WITH traffic.

It really is that simple, but you choose to ignore facts in a cut and dried case.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Nice try at slipping out, even here what you write covers your butt pretty well in your mind right? No way to know if they did it on purpose, they are dead.

Slipping out of what? It's essentially the same thing I've said in every comment I've made.

You want proof, any sane person sees car lights heading towards them would stop or pull over to a safe area to see, "Hey am I driving the right way? " They KNOW they are on the toll road, so if they see lights heading towards them, they pull over, turn around and go WITH traffic.

Yes I want proof, and that's not it. That's a supposition based on what you imagine would happen in such a case. But it didn't happen to you, it happened to a couple of kids, who may have ended up on the road, and panicked.

It really is that simple, but you choose to ignore facts in a cut and dried case.

In your mind it's that simple to consider someone guilty until proven innocent, with no proof, based on the misdeeds of others. I prefer a higher standard.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

it happened to a couple of kids, who may have ended up on the road, and panicked.

No one, not even a kid is going to panic themselves straight into a moving car.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

No one, not even a kid is going to panic themselves straight into a moving car.

And you know this because you've studied multiple such accidents, and put together a peer-reviewed report right? Or at the very least you have read one that you can provide a reference to, right?

Because otherwise your comment is pure speculation.

I actually turned up a one-way road soon after getting my license, and it freaked me right out. I panicked, though in my panicking I just pulled over to the side of the road and took a moment to collect myself and figure out what to do. But that was me. Everyone reacts to panic in their own ways.

As I have said, I'm not willing to presume guilt until proven innocent. And I'm not willing to condemn based on others' actions. If someone can show some (read any) evidence that these guys drove willingly the wrong way up the road, then I'm ready to condemn. But you can speculate and speculate until your eyes bleed, and I'm still not going to condemn based on speculation. It's irresponsible.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Strangerland, sometimes you are just like a rabid dog who grabs a bone and wont give it up.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Expected answer, but no loss, Darwinism at work here, fortunately the driver wasnt hurt. You would probably find a way to make Hitler not guilty too, I mean he didnt actually kill anyone himself and there is no way to prove otherwise so....

Point is overwhelming circumstantial evidence shows they we joyriding, which means they knew, and got the unexpected

Case closed..

Moderator: You bring up Hitler on this thread? Incredible, the way you go off topic.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

How does this comment counter anything I actually wrote? It sounds like you are just trying to find something to say since you can't actually poke any holes in my argument.

You have no valid argument, neither now, nor from the beginning. You stepped all over yourself in pretty much your first post, actually.

You have no evidence otherwise, and there will be no judge and jury, these guys are dead, suicide by being stupid. Oh take a look at the local news, you'll get the point that you have no point.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Strangerland, you'd make a terrible attorney and an even worse jury member (you'd never find anyone guilty). Time to stop watching "Murder She Wrote"

0 ( +0 / -0 )

F this thread, too many posts f'd with to keep continuity....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Strangerland,

The evidence you seem to be missing is that by virtue of physically being on the expressway at all, these two teens by default had to have been there knowingly and willingly. There is simply no way they could have "accidentally" ended up on the expressway, particularly the Chugoku-do, without bypassing a number of safeguards that make accidentally entering the expressway, correctly or otherwise, virtually impossible.

And if they were on the expressway, they had to have made a conscious decision to drive the wrong way somewhere along the way.

Feeling compassion for these two is admirable, and it is certainly important to presume innocence in most things, but when you combine the facts of the issue, including what is only a logical and rational conclusion that they entered the expressway knowingly, with the very real possibility that these two could have killed innocent people, room for empathy becomes considerably limited. I'm sorry they died, but I feel more sympathy for the people they left behind, to be entirely honest.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The evidence you seem to be missing is that by virtue of physically being on the expressway at all, these two teens by default had to have been there knowingly and willingly. There is simply no way they could have "accidentally" ended up on the expressway, particularly the Chugoku-do, without bypassing a number of safeguards that make accidentally entering the expressway, correctly or otherwise, virtually impossible.

I agree that you are probably right. That said, probably does not equate to definitely. And I'm not willing to convict based on a probability.

Here's a scenario here for you. Two kids on a bike, they take an illegal turn, on purpose, suddenly they are going up the ramp onto the expressway, not on purpose. There is a car coming, they panic, veer out of its way, and continue up the ramp onto the expressway, where they run into a car and get killed.

Panic makes people do strange things, that are often inexplicable to those thinking logically. And don't forget, these were just kids, and whichever one was driving would not have had his license for long.

So your evidence is not proof that they meant to be there. There are scenarios where they could be on the expressway without intent.

And if they were on the expressway, they had to have made a conscious decision to drive the wrong way somewhere along the way.

Probably. But not definitely. In my scenario I gave above, they made an illegal turn, which put them on the freeway, but without intent to actually go onto the freeway.

Feeling compassion for these two is admirable

I feel compassion for the insofar that they died. I don't feel compassion, or lack of, for their intent, because I don't know what their intent was, and neither do you nor anyone else here. Or at least I assume so, since no one has posted any additional information beyond what was in the original story. As I've said all along, we don't have all the facts, and condemning without knowing the facts is irresponsible, and brings down the quality of our society as a whole. It's mob mentality. Presuming guilt over innocence is North Korean mentality. Do you really thing mob mentality and North Korean mentality is a good thing?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Here's a scenario here for you. Two kids on a bike, they take an illegal turn, on purpose, suddenly they are going up the ramp onto the expressway, not on purpose. There is a car coming, they panic, veer out of its way, and continue up the ramp onto the expressway, where they run into a car and get killed.

That's the point I've been trying to make. This scenario simply could not happen because there is a physical barrier to entering the expressway that these boys would have had to stop for, or at the very least slow down dramatically for, then walk or ride their bike very slowly and diagonally across a lane but one car-width wide, maneuver that bike around the physical barrier, right their bike, and head onto the expressway. These toll gates aren't located well into the expressway. They are anywhere from 200 meters to half a kilometer away from the open lanes of the freeway and involve long onramps that give drivers plenty of opportunities to see the multiple "YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY" signs all along the offramp to prevent just the kind of scenario you're proposing.

What you're suggesting is that these boys found themselves suddenly falling off a cliff to their deaths after breaking the lock on a gate varying their way that had signs all over it reading, "DO NOT ENTER."

In your scenario, even an illegal turn would not have resulted in these boys suddenly and accidentally finding themselves on an expressway. There's no way it could have happened the way you suggest. Zero chance.

Do you really thing mob mentality and North Korean mentality is a good thing?

As dramatic as rhetoric like this sounds, I'll chose to ignore it simply because it's absurd in the context of this discussion. These kids aren't on trial. They're dead. And on all probably because they chose to do something abysmally stupid. That's not indicative of some lesser quality of humanity. It's an expression of our capacity to learn from observation and not make similar mistakes ourselves.

You seem to think that the impetus to preserve the principle of innocence before proven guilt is an all-or-nothing thing that necessarily requires the suspension of all application of rational thinking and common sense. I would respectfully disagree.

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That's the point I've been trying to make. This scenario simply could not happen because there is a physical barrier to entering the expressway that these boys would have had to stop for, or at the very least slow down dramatically for, then walk or ride their bike very slowly and diagonally across a lane but one car-width wide, maneuver that bike around the physical barrier, right their bike, and head onto the expressway. These toll gates aren't located well into the expressway. They are anywhere from 200 meters to half a kilometer away from the open lanes of the freeway and involve long onramps that give drivers plenty of opportunities to see the multiple "YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY" signs all along the offramp to prevent just the kind of scenario you're proposing.

And yet nothing you said cancels out the scenario I put forward, or others. On top of this, it's based on the assumption that the off ramp they went up actually had a ticket gate. Do you know the actual location of the entrance they took? Have you seen it to ensure that it does have this gate? If you have, please feel free to point us at it on a google map or whatnot.

There's no way it could have happened the way you suggest. Zero chance.

Except that there is. I've read stories in Japan over the years about old men who have ended up going the wrong way on an expressway in their cars. No matter how much you want to be able to condemn these guys, we just don't have enough evidence yet to do so.

You seem to think that the impetus to preserve the principle of innocence before proven guilt is an all-or-nothing thing that necessarily requires the suspension of all application of rational thinking and common sense.

No, I require some evidence that someone has intentionally done something wrong before condemning them. Someone who has willfully caused chaos deserves condemnation. Someone who makes a mistake deserves sympathy. The gap is so large between these two things that to convict without evidence is irresponsible. Go back and read the article and show me what evidence is there. There isn't any. All we have is a thread full of supposition, people willing to condemn without evidence, and/or based on others misdeeds. My North Korea comment was not rhetoric, it's what you see in regimes. The problem with this is that this cynicism and mob mentality on the internet is disgusting, and is the negative side of the internet.

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I've read stories in Japan over the years about old men who have ended up going the wrong way on an expressway in their cars.

Key word being "old". As in suffering from dementia. 16 year olds don't suffer dementia.

Common sense, and experience, Strangerland. Common sense and experience.

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Key word being "old". As in suffering from dementia. 16 year olds don't suffer dementia.

Were you not reading what I was writing? The point I was making is that it's possible to get on expressways going the wrong direction, something that LFRagain was claiming is impossible to happen.

Common sense, and experience, Strangerland. Common sense and experience.

No matter how many times you say it, I'm still not going to convict and condemn on supposition and other people's actions. It's irresponsible, and brings down the quality of our society as a whole.

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Were you not reading what I was writing?

Yup, you suggested confused victims of dementia were on a par with what these 2 dummies were doing.

It's irresponsible, and brings down the quality of our society as a whole.

I disagree. I think lack of accountability and cowardice brings us down.

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Yup, you suggested confused victims of dementia were on a par with what these 2 dummies were doing.

Wow, and even after I explained it, you still don't get it.

I disagree. I think lack of accountability and cowardice brings us down.

So you prefer guilty until proven innocent, and convicting based on circumstantial evidence.

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So you prefer guilty until proven innocent, and convicting based on circumstantial evidence. Why don't you live in North Korea?

Its a public forum, not a court of law. Maybe u missed that somewhere.

Common sense and experience. Common sense and experience.

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Its a public forum, not a court of law. Maybe u missed that somewhere.

The dead still deserve that respect.

Irresponsible and disgraceful. Irresponsible and disgraceful.

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Readers, no more bickering please.

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Let me ask you this. In your opinion, was OJ guilty?

Moderator: OJ? Incredible the way you go off topic.

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So many experts here.

Such a lack of knowledge.

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Poor driver who had go through this on his way home.

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