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20,000 protest outside Noda's residence over nuclear restart

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PM Noda must have big parking space in his residence to hold 20,000 people for a giant party. He could've sold many "Oi Oi" T-shirts and should've charge for parking.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Then they went home on the electric train sat in front of the TV with air con, cold beer and a hot meal downloaded the news uploaded to Facebook recharged the phone.

7 ( +22 / -14 )

Yes!

Beautiful photo by the way, and Onniyama, i hope you've had a chance to see the 3 protest photos here http://www.japantoday.com/category/picture-of-the-day/view/energy-unrest#comment_1327647 that i posted for you a while ago. I wish i could message you instead of posting here.

Nice to see people are still out there

2 ( +4 / -2 )

PM Noda must have big parking space in his residence to hold 20,000 people for a giant party. He could've sold many "Oi Oi" T-shirts and should've charge for parking.

@sfjp330,

T-shirts? Oh yes. I'm still trying to sort it out, but it seems that any mention on JT is off limits. How do i explain that to the people who made requests? Anyway, the file is out there if you go back to the original conversation and try to read the comments. Maybe i should just get in touch with the organizers. Look, i'm sorry i couldn't get in touch with anyone. You are all so anonymous. However it's nice to have some names like that Nobel prize winning author. I have a sense of duty, but i've spent so much time and energy that i'm tired now. Glad to see someone still trying to get the point across.

Hugs everyone :)

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

ReMzz......These protesters are protesting against the J-goverment because of restarting the two reators, but in the minds of the protesters, what are you going to replace it with? Since Fukushima disaster, Japan electricity producers are scrambling to ensure an adequate supply. How does these protesters expect their business to continue at a peak level with a shortage of energy? Japan is now importing massive amounts of natural gas and other energies from Russia, Australia and other countries to stave off blackouts. In Japan, It’s easy to say let’s just go for renewables, and I’m quite sure Japan can someday do without nuclear, but this is too abrupt. What is the solution from these protesters? Are they clueless? Japanese people must see this as an intermediate and not a permanent solution.

-1 ( +10 / -9 )

Can't anyone be bothered to actually take picture that enable a good estimation of the numbers at protests? Those pictures just don't show enough - could be 200 people, could be 20,000 - somewhere off frame.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

I know. The power companies are now doing a lot more to be transparent, and i'm almost satisfied with that. And i think no matter how far "off" the protesters are, they have their place, or i should say we. "Like the pike in the ponds of Versailles, so the carp doesn't sleep...", the famous words said at Humphrey Bogart's funeral. I think that applies here.

The protesters are a reminder of this issue, so that no one gets complacent. Without them would be a facade of polite agreement with whatever crap the utilities do. We cannot allow that. Everyone must feel watched and feel compelled to follow the written and implied rules.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Then they went home on the electric train sat in front of the TV with air con, cold beer and a hot meal downloaded the news uploaded to Facebook recharged the phone.

Yeah, that's great isn't it. All that without a single nuclear reactor online. Go figure!!

Just imagine how much more we can do without nuclear energy once we add in alternative fuels.

9 ( +12 / -5 )

@Star-viking, Here's some actual protest footage, from late in the evening, if you want to have an idea of how many people there are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCr6rMpvDic I didn't upload it, but i'm milliREMzzz on YouTube and gmail, in case any of you run into me.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

NetNinja! there you are :)

Maybe you can find me online and let me know how you are doing. I didn't forget you at all or your request.

Friday’s protest was the latest sign of unease over the decision which was taken in conjunction with local authorities and despite the fact that Noda had previously vowed not to act without public backing.

Wow, that's a new one. Perhaps the words were right after all.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Bravo! Nice to see people are starting to get proactive about what these criminals in power are doing!

10 ( +12 / -2 )

waltery: "Then they went home on the electric train sat in front of the TV with air con, cold beer and a hot meal downloaded the news uploaded to Facebook recharged the phone."

Proof that the reactors need not be restarted, isn't it? If they can do all that without the reactors, then why the need to restart them? :) Zing!

Anyway, 20,000 is a pretty impressive number by Japanese protest standards, and I'm pleased as punch to see that people were using megaphones outside the PM's residence (maybe he'll have a little more sympathy for those of us who hate the black trucks and election cars!), and I hope they do this more and more, and the numbers increase. Clearly the government doesn't care about the people, only the bottom line, so if they can bring it to Noda's front door and make it personal then it make a wee bit of a difference.

And lest we forget, Oi has ALREADY had one nuclear alarm during the restart, and one example of lack of transparency from the plant's head.

10 ( +12 / -1 )

smithinjapan.....what waltery was meant to say that "Then they walked many miles to home and sat in front of porch with a japanese paper fan, warm beer, and a leftover riceball meal, played shamisen and wrote letters with a pen" Proof that reactors does not need to be started. Sounds like energy efficient day for these protesters.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The figure I read on the ex-skf blog was 45,000?

8 ( +7 / -0 )

Rolling blackouts will be implemented in the Kansai region and Hokkaido, Kyushu and Shikoku with two hours' advance notice if usage exceeds 99 percent of utilities' capacity, according to a draft government plan on summer power supply.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Blackout the folks in the pic and the 7.5 mil petitioners first. Perhaps that will teach them to keep their pie holes shut unless they can figure out a better solution to the energy crisis.

-9 ( +3 / -11 )

Last summer rolling blackouts were not necessary, the usage never went over 80% of the capacity even in peak times. I spent 3 summers in Japan, did not turn on the AC in my apartment once. If you have a fan and drink lots of water AC is not necessary.

12 ( +11 / -1 )

@smithinjapan

Proof that the reactors need not be restarted, isn't it? If they can do all that without the reactors, then why the need to restart them? :) Zing!

Yeah, lets import more oil and gas, it's more efficient, clean and cheap, You would be the first one shouting out loudly if Tokyo had a blackout

-7 ( +12 / -16 )

"Then they walked many miles to home and sat in front of porch with a japanese paper fan, warm beer, and a leftover riceball meal, played shamisen and wrote letters with a pen" Proof that reactors does not need to be started. Sounds like energy efficient day for these protesters.

Reminds me of my childhood, spending time with my grandparents. Not the same thing, not Japanese, but close. People who lived thru the Great Depression can be like that. Grandma made a cool summer drink by simmering some fresh berries in a pot of water and letting it cool overnight. Add sugar to taste, grandpa barely added any to his.

We didn't have the A/C on, but all the windows were open for a crossdraft. Grandma cooked in the morning before it got hot in the house. They didn't have a computer until a few years ago, now that i'm in my 20s. We played board games and some sports. Drawing, reading books, taking care of the enormous garden with many kinds of fruit trees. Yes, they were and are retired. They never forgot to save money, and hardly wasted any one needless conveniences.

It's not a bad or boring way to live, i'm all for it

10 ( +9 / -1 )

Personally, I think this is great. I'm glad to see people coming together this way.

10 ( +8 / -1 )

People seem to have forgotten, the reason why all the nuclear reactors were closed down was because there was a LEVEL 7 nuclear disaster, just 18 months ago.

The shut downs have nothing to do with any anti nuke protestors. The gov't made it mandatory to carry out reactor stress tests and some safety updates.

I've only heard of one or two other reactors, in Kyushu, which might be ready to go back online, but the gov't also made the decision not to start any others until after Sept., when the new atomic safety agency should start to function.

There seems to be a strong movement for a referendum on the nuclear reactors, especially after the gov't was handed a petition with 6.5 million signatures to not start the Oi reactors. That must be something of milestone here in Japan?

16 ( +15 / -1 )

20,000 people. This just goes to show incorrect those that claim Japanese are sheep and don't have their own opinions. Agree or disagree, it is great these people took the time to express their opinions on the matter. That is never a bad thing.

11 ( +9 / -0 )

Awesome Japan! To have over 20,000 people gather in any one place (besides a concert stadium) is amazing! Also 7.5 million signatures (That's great too) , now to get the government to listen and the media to give more (Coverage) of this movement!!!

Japan Today, please give more (attention and imput) on this very story! Thank you!

0 ( +6 / -8 )

Ben Jack

Well said.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Ben Jack good point except that when there have been protests in other countries on issues there have been up to 1000000 or more protesting. 20000/128000000 is a good showing but hardly makes that a majority opinion. I think everyone can agree that they would like some assurances before reactors come online again. But what those might be or how to accomplish them I haven't a clue.

-4 ( +3 / -6 )

REMzzz. Nice sentiment about your childhood. I too remember hot summer evenings without A/C, maybe sitting outside if the mosquitoes were not too bad, playing a board game or card game. Times have changed but it just illustrates that people could surely do with less electricity if they had too. If we need blackouts, so be it. And how about setting the street lights to come on at summer time instead of winter time as a start?! How about a by-law that restricts outdoor lights until 7 or 7:30. The fines could pay for increased energy costs. I do not think there will be a power shortage at all. But we will never know the truth now, will we? The reactors will be started and numbers will be manipulated. REMzzz. I will try to get in touch with you via the link you left. Thank you for your efforts on the pictures.

3 ( +3 / -2 )

Remember hot summers with AC? I live that now? I don't have AC. Been here nearly 12 years and I am a fat, white whale and can live without. Shame the locals can't. It is THEIR needs that are causing all of this. As it is, i am STILL seeing windows open, AC on, neon lights on during the day.... when are the locals going to smarten up and demand that these selfish people be fines for their wasting of power?

I am glad people are out protesting but this isn't a democratic country. The government has proven that time and time again - and most recently with Oi going back on.

1 ( +5 / -6 )

Samantha Ueno

I did not use an ac either but when I mentioned it to some of my J friends they were alarmed and told me that I might get a heatstroke.

I also have 3 friends who keep their ac on even when they are not at home because of their pets. By the way, one of them lives in Hokkaido.

When I tell them that using so much energy is wasteful, they just say that I might think differently when I get a pet. I do not know. But my bets back home never needed air conditioning and the summers there can be really as hot as h***.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

tmarie it is nice you do not need AC but it is your choice. I see a lot of people in Oklahoma that do not use AC and love the heat. They comes in all sizes and colors, it is your choice to be hot. Most people prefer to be comfortable.

-8 ( +6 / -12 )

Tmarie

We should remember that this is their country and they will bear the consequences of their own actions. Every foreigner residing here is probably welcome to do so and also to leave if they do not like what they get.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

I wish I had know there was a protest in front of KEPCO last night in Oasaka. I would have went. Anyone know of anymore protests in the Kansai area?

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Also, does anyone know where we can sign Mr. Oe`s petition? Zichi? REMzzz?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What a great BUZZ that was last night. And 20, 000 people demonstrating here is like a million. Come on Japan, let's stop the money men from pushing the ON button for their OWN self interested greed.

7 ( +8 / -2 )

Onniyama,

the petition was already handed in to the PM?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It's easy to understand the sentiments of the Japanese people and I hope their objections are heeded and the j-Gov get their finger out and start to do something about alternatives to nuclear energy. Sadly, I fear this will only result in yet another change of government and/or PMs and the cycle will continue for many more years yet.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It was on 報道ステーション (Hodo Station TV Asahi) last night. It said there were 45,000 protesters. (A week before there were 16,000) They gather every Friday evening in front of PM’s residence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTuHOAW0DVM

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I am glad to see more protestors, amybe at some point the j-govt MIGHT even consider listening to their own people, wudnt that be nice!

Its great that we are coping now, & imo Japan needs to start with the oldest NPP & start permanently shutting them down, & getting their A$$ in gear with more alternative sources of power.

BUT one thing we have to watch & that is the strength of the yen, right now it is kick A$$ strong, at some point it will likely take a dive & all that imported oil & gas we are now using will SKYROCKET in price...............................

Think about it, at that point Japan will be in deep do do!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

who keep their ac on even when they are not at home because of their pets.

Ridiculous! And in Hokkaido? The pets will die from freezing... Have they never heard of pet "matresses" that hold "Ice-Non" pillows ? My pet loves his and no "extra energy" is involved since everyone still uses a refrigerator I believe?

5 ( +5 / -0 )

tmarie it is nice you do not need AC but it is your choice. I see a lot of people in Oklahoma that do not use AC and love the heat. They comes in all sizes and colors, it is your choice to be hot. Most people prefer to be comfortable.

Indeed but when you grow up expecting AC on and in a country that has an issue with power.... Perhaps some people could put aside their level of comfort and suck it up for a bit? Self entitlement is killing this country but feel free to defend those who abuse not only the AC but power. Your country is paying the price for it., not mine.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Zichi. Yes, but I was wondering if there is still some way a person could add his/her name?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They only problem with the nuclear power here was putting it on the coast in a country so famous for Tsunami' that the name itself comes from here. Renewable energy is the money making scam, they provide almost no energy but gets massive Massive subsidies from governments, destroying the environment Not to mention the sick deaths bats go through when they come within range of them. Nuclear power, safest there is, just dont put it on the coast in a Tsunami prone country. We have had pipes for around 5000 years, pipe the water to the reactor. Id rather live next to a clean nuclear reactor, than sit next to a filthy coal one churning out masses of carcinogens and radiation constantly. Protestors need to learn the facts about energy creation. Ill be rated down by the protestors who think they know more but are just spouting emotional bollocks/ignoring the science.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

Thomas Michael LewisJun. 23, 2012 - 12:06PM JST

They only problem with the nuclear power here was putting it on the coast in a country so famous for Tsunami' that the name itself comes from here. Renewable energy is the money making scam, they provide almost no energy but gets massive Massive subsidies from governments, destroying the environment Not to mention the sick deaths bats go through when they come within range of them. Nuclear power, safest there is, just dont put it on the coast in a Tsunami prone country. We have had pipes for around 5000 years, pipe the water to the reactor. Id rather live next to a clean nuclear reactor, than sit next to a filthy coal one churning out masses of carcinogens and radiation constantly. Protestors need to learn the facts about energy creation. Ill be rated down by the protestors who think they know more but are just spouting emotional bollocks/ignoring the science.

Coasts are actually the best place for reactors, they simply never estimated above M8 earthquake type tsunami (about 6m at Fukushima) since nobody did. In fact, they had walls twice the needed height, but still less than the 15m that actually hit. Most other plants do have better builds though, Fukushima just happened to be one of the oldest and in fact scheduled to shut down more than ten years ago.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Matthew SimonJun. 23, 2012 - 10:46AM JST

Ben Jack good point except that when there have been protests in other countries on issues there have been up to 1000000 or more protesting. 20000/128000000 is a good showing but hardly makes that a majority opinion. I think everyone can agree that they would like some assurances before reactors come online again. But what those might be or how to accomplish them I haven't a clue.

Few people actually care about where their power comes from as long as it's there and cheap. Just a few idiots are driving the conversation towards anti-nuclear, and everyone else will suffer for it.

-7 ( +9 / -14 )

How old were they? Did they have a comfortable pension? Japan cannot continue to have a thriving economic society without electricity TODAY! Long term planning is fine, but everyone needs to work and survive.. The protesters need to take the electric train home, turn on the electric air conditioner, watch themselves on TV, and cool down their opposition.

-4 ( +3 / -6 )

If you have a fan and drink lots of water AC is not necessary.

I agree. Beer instead of water, however!

Power to the people I say! This is a side of the Japanese we have never seen before. These mega-corporations like TEPCO and their best mates - the J-Govt - are terrified that we may not even need the reactors to re-start.

5 ( +6 / -2 )

zichiJun. 23, 2012 - 09:51AM JST

People seem to have forgotten, the reason why all the nuclear reactors were closed down was because there was a LEVEL 7 nuclear disaster, just 18 months ago.

That is arguable. While Japan itself upgraded it to level 7, the actual release amount and release pattern would place it in the level 6 category. In fact, it is dwarfed by the Kyshtym disaster when discussing the year-end radiation exposure (over 500mSv in a half dozen towns, compared to a maximum of 50mSv in all but a few isolated uninhabited areas).

People here are protesting without knowledge of historical events and their significance. Most just hate nuclear because they have nothing better to do with their lives than ignore the truth and indirectly lie to people.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Michael: "You would be the first one shouting out loudly if Tokyo had a blackout"

Not at all. First of all, I'm in Osaka. Secondly, if it takes a blackout here and there to avoid resarting the reactors, bring them on. So long as essential services are not knocked out (and sorry, I don't consider government buildings as an essential service!), it'll be a campy work or home environment for a few hours. And hey, they can be fun!! I mean, don't they say that more babies are concieved in such siuations? :)

Anyway, there won't be any blackouts, and if they are they will be intentional so as to scare people and further push the 'need' for nuclear power.

YuriOtani: "Most people prefer to be comfortable."

How comforable are the people in Fukushima who lived around the plant?

5 ( +7 / -2 )

The problem is time, it will take years for new plants to be online and that is if the technology was available.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Yuri: Now that I agree with.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

smithinjapanJun. 23, 2012 - 12:50PM JST

Not at all. First of all, I'm in Osaka. Secondly, if it takes a blackout here and there to avoid resarting the reactors, bring them on. So long as essential services are not knocked out (and sorry, I don't consider government buildings as an essential service!), it'll be a campy work or home environment for a few hours. And hey, they can be fun!! I mean, don't they say that more babies are concieved in such siuations? :)

Unfortunately, only regulated blackouts can achieve that. If the system crashes due to an overloaded transformer blowing, or an oil plant suddenly loses power, everything will be taken down, hospitals, police stations, and even your ability to call for help. Since they won't call for rotating blackouts until 99% power use, any mechanical failure will take down the system.

Anyway, there won't be any blackouts, and if they are they will be intentional so as to scare people and further push the 'need' for nuclear power.

No, power companies do NOT want blackouts. If there's anything harder to control than a blackout, it would be consumer backlash if there is one. Revolving blackouts can cause switching system failures, and why they typically don't use it unless absolutely necessary.

How comforable are the people in Fukushima who lived around the plant?

I don't know and neither do you.

The evacuations had nothing to do with the plant failure, as the actually recommended evacuations would have temporarily moved just a few thousand and they would be back there now. As discussed in another article, the Government, took unnecessary steps because they refused to use data given to them to properly evacuate only the areas needed. If they want to protest against Noda to say that they should be allowed back into areas that are clearly safe, then they should.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Restarting the reactors is wrong. Just plain wrong.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

About 20,000 people gathered in front of Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda’s residence

The organizers put the number at 45,000

The police put the number at 11,000

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

It was more like 45000+ The whole world knows about this.It will only grow and grow. J-gov and most Japanese media will soon become irrelevant regarding the truth.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

onedragonJun. 23, 2012 - 01:26PM JST

It was more like 45000+ The whole world knows about this.It will only grow and grow. J-gov and most Japanese media will soon become irrelevant regarding the truth.

Yes, exponentially inflating numbers tend to get bigger as people keep exaggerating. If the cops say 11000, we can expect there are probably about 11000 at any one time. They tend to know the situation better than random guesstimates on the web.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

Good! I'd like to see this many people protest outside of Shimizu's house next. The former president of TEPCO shouldn't be allowed a good night's sleep for years...

5 ( +6 / -1 )

bruinfanJun. 23, 2012 - 01:32PM JST

Good! I'd like to see this many people protest outside of Shimizu's house next. The former president of TEPCO shouldn't be allowed a good night's sleep for years...

You are advocating stalking a private citizen, possibly driving him to suicide for events he did not have control over. That is part of the reason why these protests must stop now, or less people become increasingly extreme and hateful.

-11 ( +5 / -16 )

Great to see! This is one of the most docile electorates in the world but it can show its teeth! More if the same please! Wonderful to see the great Kenzaburo Oe still punching away - a national treasure.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Why are the protest placards in English?

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Why are the protest placards in English?

You'd have to ask the very attactive protestor with the butterfly tatoo that question. However, I see nothing wrong with it. It certainly would grab more international media attention.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

There was a counter demo of pro nukers made up of mainly the extreme right wing black van loudspeaker van elements.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The other significance of this news in addition to the fact that an unusually large number of everyday people from typical Japan standards were able to take a political stand and raise their voice which I agree is a good thing for the country, the other good thing is that it was not led by the typical leftist groups which often tend to be on the radical side but rather from within the everyday people group through twitter callouts and by influential human rights activists in the art and entertainment world such as Kenzaburo Oe or Ryuichi Sakamoto who are free from industrial restrictions from the powerful entertainment jimushos or sponsors. Not sure if Taro Yamamoto took part in this but he is also one courageous man willing to take a stand despite pretty much losing his business as an actor and tarento.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

It certainly would grab more international media attention

I see. But why go for that? The international community isn't going to achieve anything. Greenpeace? LMAO! It's pretty much a national issue, no? Wouldn't it be in their interest (first of all) to get their message across in Japanese 1) to those they oppose (Japanese government/TEPCO etc), and 2) to those they would like to see them to join (Japanese housewives/"salariman")?

RADIOACTIVITY IS IN THE AIR FOR YOU AND ME!

STOP BUILDING THE HELL FOR OUR CHILDREN!

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

Basroil...no. The protests do not need to stop nor should they stop...Too much damage was done, too many people have suffered too much..Why should the protesters who are finally finding their voice be silent? This country needs another voice to counter the nuclear village / government propaganda broadcast by most ( but not all ) local media which is in the big business pockets . On the subject of Shimizu, I guess you probably have no issue with him getting a $5 million golden parachute from Tepco last year and having an amakudari job lined up at a company where Tepco is a major shareholder as was disclosed this week. ( along with 8 other Tepco executives ) ...You want the common people to stop protesting and keep this corrupt , rotten system going as is , do you?

5 ( +7 / -2 )

The problem is time, it will take years for new plants to be online and that is if the technology was available.

No, the problem is that Japan consumes and wastes a lot of power and cry like babies when a cut in power consumption is needed - you yourself stated people want to be comfortable so they can take the disasters with their AC if they continue the way they are.

Time? Yep. Shame Japan sat so comfortably with the nuclear cronies instead of developing other methods and using methods out there already. Why the government isn't being questioned by the public about the waste of money in building all of these plants, and many in dangerous areas, is beyond me. But many don't care. As long as they are comfortable and aren't in Fukushima, it isn't their problem, right?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

basroil: "The evacuations had nothing to do with the plant failure..."

Oh, REALLY?? The mandatory evacuation of people within a 20 km zone had NOTHING to do with the Fukushima plant 'failure'? Do you by chance work for TEPCO or the government?

"I don't know and neither do you."

Actually, I do know, as I have friends who visit the shelters and try and help out, as well as through media stories -- including stories of increased suicides due to depression, stress, and othe reasons the evacuees feel the need to take their lives and escape their miserable living conditions.

"That is part of the reason why these protests must stop now, or less people become increasingly extreme and hateful."

Not at all. They need to increase and more Japanese need to show they are not apathetic and voice their opinion on this and other situations. The protests are peaceful, and lots of police are present in case some random nut wants to start trouble. If you want people to sit back and act like sheep, that's your option, but they most certainly should not. Here's hoping the next protest reaches 100,000 or more... that would REALLY be impressive! As for people 'becoming hateful', how do you figure? They'd be more hateful hiding their feelings until they explode at some train station or send bullets to a government agency than going to a peaceful protest and expressing themselves with a bunch of people who are like-minded.

11 ( +13 / -2 )

Basroll June 23, 2012 - 12:46pm

You say, Just a few idiots are driving the conversation towards ant-nuclear, and everyone else will suffer for it.

I respectfully disagree with you, though your statements have "no respect" or (room) for both sides to speak freely! Remember, sometimes things are not just ( black or white) Protest are a good thing, do you think it should be against the law?

We can learn from everyone!, and I'm glad that (you)are able to speak.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

No, the problem is that Japan consumes and wastes a lot of power and cry like babies when a cut in power consumption is needed - you yourself stated people want to be comfortable so they can take the disasters with their AC if they continue the way they are.

I was surprised recently to discover that Canada is now top of the power consumption, followed by America. Japan is about 4th or 5th.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Noda...you seek Noda. ^_^

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Indeed, Canada, the US and the like suck up a lot. Thing is, from my understanding, Canada uses lots of renewable sources, sells a lot of power to the US. Japan... well, we know the issues here...

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Clemens SimonJun. 23, 2012 - 02:05PM JST Why are the protest placards in English?

All Japanese Television has English subtitles...its called courtesy.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

He should just restart them all., them not being in use is far more dangerous. Dismantle them when you have a solid solution and when all the offshore windmills are installed. Nobody talks about those. All we hear about are those ridiculous solar panels that work great during the rainy season.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

tmarie,

power consumption per capita. Canada 15,467 kWh. USA 12,884 kWh. Japan (4th) 7,495 kWh.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

smithinjapanJun. 23, 2012 - 03:18PM JST

Oh, REALLY?? The mandatory evacuation of people within a 20 km zone had NOTHING to do with the Fukushima plant 'failure'?

Yes, if you read the NISA reports, none of the evacuated cities were in any danger, and the ones that had elevated levels are mostly back to expected levels. The actual evacuation zone should have been about a tenth of what it ended up being, and NOT in a circle. The circular evacuation was unrelated to the plant disaster, rather due to poor planning. Most of those people should be allowed back in to their homes, as there is nothing wrong with most towns.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Bruinfan, "Good! I'd like to see this many people protest outside of Shimizu's house next. "

Your advocating persecution, not protest. A demo outside the Kantei is fair game in a democracy but as soon as individuals are targeted it's mob violence.

I disagree with the protesters, I see no clean alternative in the short to mid term to nuclear power. Like everyone else though I would like as much assurance as possible that the plants are as safe as they can be. As for those that see its fine to exist without air con. Its probably fine for he young, fit and healthy, buy my aged mother in law would be in serious difficulty without hers.

There's no one size fits all answer to Japan's energy crisis. We'll all have to continue to make compromises until the country's back on its feet.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Stuart haywardJun. 23, 2012 - 03:33PM JST

I respectfully disagree with you, though your statements have "no respect" or (room) for both sides to speak freely! Remember, sometimes things are not just ( black or white) Protest are a good thing, do you think it should be against the law?

Yes, everyone should have the right to voice substantiated opinions , but not to misinform others and incite mob mentalities. Only a few times have I actually heard them (ones in Sapporo) actually say anything related to the nuclear plants themselves. The others simply marginalize those who lost everything due to the earthquake but not the plant (by talking about the "plight" of nuclear refugees but not in terms of tsunami refugees). Still others simply are angry and will say anything without reason or thought.

Should those protesters had been electrical power engineers, emergency response members, or other educated, informed people, the type of protest would be more beneficial to discussion. However, as the article mentions, the main leaders are fiction authors and journalists (who are ethically obligated not to incite bias), perhaps other people who have no real idea as to what they are protesting against. You can clearly see in the comments here how for every good point against restarting, three or four dozen comments are made that have no point.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

tmarieJun. 23, 2012 - 04:00PM JST

Indeed, Canada, the US and the like suck up a lot. Thing is, from my understanding, Canada uses lots of renewable sources, sells a lot of power to the US. Japan... well, we know the issues here...

Just a bit over half by hydro. Other than that, gas, coal, and nuclear actually (coal and nuclear almost even, gas is half). In populated parts almost 50% is from nuclear though.

However, Japan doesn't have the Great Lakes that Canada does, so hydro is not an option, at least not much more than it already is used. Japan has a unique geology that restricts it from using most types of energy, hence why Japan uses almost 90% thermal plants (very compact compared to hydro even)

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

All Japanese Television has English subtitles...its called courtesy.

Really? Which Japan do you live in?

5 ( +8 / -3 )

They can protest as much as they want....in the end Noda will have it the way he wants.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Waltery, very well described. No AC, no fan. How many of you have slept naked with only the lower underwear on yet can't sleep well because it's indeed very warm night esp in Aug. Mind you opening the windows wide open just couldn't help as the air in itself is warm and I live in the third floor of an apt complex and in the middle of ricefields at that! And how many of you have worked in the factories where in midday no place of your body is dry. Some people are just living a doubled life. Bickering against nukes but still want to enjoy the very comfortable life of working in an office with all those cute uniforms and ac on. Good for them to speak out their voice if it's not just orchestrated. But will they live a life like mine? No ac, no tv and opening fans to the minimum. No microwave, no hair dryer, no foot spas. And probably no job too. As the factories might run to foreign lands as yen is strong. And so this is Japan now. Let the PM do what he think is best.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

And opening windows isn't a good choice as other crimes would spring up.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

trinklets2

But will they live a life like mine? No ac, no tv and opening fans to the minimum. No microwave, no hair dryer, no foot spas. And probably no job too.

But you do manage to have internet and computer?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Zichi, not arguing at all that Canada wastes a lot of power. Just stating that they use renewable power a heck of a lot more than Japan so in some ways, it doesn't seem as bad. I do have to wonder why Canada uses so much compared to other countries.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC/countries/CA-NO-GB-NG-CN?display=map

Shows that Iceland uses more per capita. Is this due to cost of heating buildings in the winter or what?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

tmarie,

yes Canada generates a very impressive 60% of total power from hydro, only Brazil does better at 80%.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

basroil: "The circular evacuation was unrelated to the plant disaster, rather due to poor planning."

Whether or not the precaution of evacuating the zone was 'poor planning' or not it was DIRECTLY related to the disaster, else why did they evacuate them? Fear of lighting? NO, fear of RADIATION (and where did that come from... wait for it... drumroll... THE FAILED PLANT!). I really don't see where you disconnect that.

"Yes, everyone should have the right to voice substantiated opinions , but not to misinform others and incite mob mentalities."

Like the government, TEPCO, and other electric companies?

"Still others simply are angry and will say anything without reason or thought."

Ahem.

"Should those protesters had been electrical power engineers, emergency response members, or other educated, informed people, the type of protest would be more beneficial to discussion."

EVERYONE has a right to protest, as this issue affects EVERYONE in the nation, and even those outside. You don't have to have or be directly related to jobs that concern the nuclear plants to be affected by said plants, nor do you need such a job to have a voice on the matter. Once again, I can't understand the disconnect in logic. Would you be so adamant and say people were spreading misinformation if it were a gathering in favour of restarting the reactors (and the people weren't electricians or what have you)? Would you say it's not worth hearing them and they should all go home? How about people who don't live in Okinawa or have anything to do with the bases, aren't in the military or government, do they have no place in gathering to protest the US military presence? Are YOU in the industry?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

basroil,

so only doctors should protest about health issues. Only teachers about eductional issues. Please get real, according to the constitution all people have the right to assemble and protest.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

20,000????? I heard from several sources it was 45,000. What gives? And, who cares? Let's go to the Friday 6pm (not so late at night) protests and DO something. News sources are finally paying attention. Just go for your own self. See you there.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

REMzzz Jun. 23, 2012 - 08:42AM JST

@Star-viking, Here's some actual protest footage, from late in the evening, if you want to have an idea of how many people there are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCr6rMpvDic I didn't upload it, but i'm milliREMzzz on YouTube and gmail, in case any of you run into me.

Cheers, looks substantial, but the vid is of last week's protest. Could be 5,000-ish people there.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

smithinjapanJun. 23, 2012 - 09:07PM JST

Whether or not the precaution of evacuating the zone was 'poor planning' or not it was DIRECTLY related to the disaster, else why did they evacuate them? Fear of lighting? NO, fear of RADIATION (and where did that come from... wait for it... drumroll... THE FAILED PLANT!).

Given that the levels were under WHO recommended levels, there was no real need to evacuate at all. Just because you (3rd person you) have irrational fears doesn't mean you have to act on it.

Like the government, TEPCO, and other electric companies?

We can set TEPCO aside for a bit as they were under direct control of the government. However, I have yet to hear that the other companies have actively lied in the post-Fukushima time. They have been fairly forthcoming about everything lately.

EVERYONE has a right to protest, as this issue affects EVERYONE in the nation, and even those outside.

No, it actually only effects those that live near the plants. I personally live within fallout reach from Tomari, but someone living in Tokyo, let alone Hawaii, should have no say.

Would you be so adamant and say people were spreading misinformation if it were a gathering in favour of restarting the reactors (and the people weren't electricians or what have you)? Would you say it's not worth hearing them and they should all go home?

I would treat them the same as protesters against the plants. You can't state that there aren't issues with any power generation system, or any system in fact. As long as you properly explain why you believe the way you do, and that belief is in fact related to the issue, then your voice should be allowed. However, if you simply state a hateful belief, it would be no different than sexism or racism.

However, studies have shown that the media is more negative towards nuclear plants than environmental engineers (who hate anything that pollutes), and it would be nearly impossible for a pro-nuclear protest to be so widely publicized.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

I wish 20,000 intelligent people came to even out the protest. People really don't understand that they are wrong about not restarting. The people that are ok with the restart have no passion to hit the streets

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

basroilJun. 23, 2012 - 12:42PM JST

That is arguable. While Japan itself upgraded it to level 7, the actual release amount and release pattern would place it in the level 6 category. In fact, it is dwarfed by the Kyshtym disaster when discussing the year-end radiation exposure (over 500mSv in a half dozen towns, compared to a maximum of 50mSv in all but a few isolated uninhabited areas).

I did not know that - cheers.

People here are protesting without knowledge of historical events and their significance. Most just hate nuclear because they have nothing better to do with their lives than ignore the truth and indirectly lie to people.

Most people have no idea as to how the "threat" of radiation compares to other dangers we face in our everyday lives.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Jimizo Jun. 23, 2012 - 01:55PM JST

Great to see! This is one of the most docile electorates in the world but it can show its teeth! More if the same please! Wonderful to see the great Kenzaburo Oe still punching away - a national treasure.

Too true! Nobel Prise-winning physicist, isn't he?

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

smithinjapanJun. 23, 2012 - 03:18PM JST

Actually, I do know, as I have friends who visit the shelters and try and help out, as well as through media stories -- including stories of increased suicides due to depression, stress, and othe reasons the evacuees feel the need to take their lives and escape their miserable living conditions.

Let's not forget the stress from nutters telling them they and their children are all going to die or become mutated...

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

basroilJun. 23, 2012 - 04:29PM JST

smithinjapan@Oh, REALLY?? The mandatory evacuation of people within a 20 km zone had NOTHING to do with the Fukushima plant 'failure'?

Yes, if you read the NISA reports, none of the evacuated cities were in any danger, and the ones that had elevated levels are mostly back to expected levels. The actual evacuation zone should have been about a tenth of what it ended up being, and NOT in a circle. The circular evacuation was unrelated to the plant disaster, rather due to poor planning. Most of those people should be allowed back in to their homes, as there is nothing wrong with most towns.

And that's also the reason that kids who were evacuated from the 10km zone around the plant were hit with a potentially significant dose - the release did not spread out in a circle, it was a plume - some of which falls well outside the 30km radius. See http://www.gepr.org/en/contents/20120101-02/img/chart01.jpg

basroil is right.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

No, it actually only effects those that live near the plants. I personally live within fallout reach from Tomari, but someone living in Tokyo, let alone Hawaii, should have no say.

Is that a joke? Doesn't affect others outside of the area? Funny, I think the food coming from the area affects us. I think the crap they are dumping in the oceans affects us - and Hawaii for that matter. Nuclear power doesn't just affect one area, it affects huge masses of land and water. Everyone has a "right" to be concerned as the wind blows and carries this crap. Everyone has a "right" to voice concern.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

smithinjapan Jun. 23, 2012 - 09:07PM JST

EVERYONE has a right to protest, as this issue affects EVERYONE in the nation, and even those outside. You don't have to have or be directly related to jobs that concern the nuclear plants to be affected by said plants, nor do you need such a job to have a voice on the matter. Once again, I can't understand the disconnect in logic.

The problem is this, whilst everyone has a right to protest - no-one has a right to their own facts - and outright lies, confabulations, and elementary misunderstandings dominate the scene here. Look at the kerfuffle over the alarm at Oi. It took our own Nigelboy to track down the actual news: alarm reports that water level has dropped due to a pump operating. Alarm stops as water level quickly gets topped up to it's original level. Basic science - pump water out - water level in the container drops - yet this was blown up into national news, and the facts of the case were not reported. Or looks at the Fukushima Dai-ichi Reactor 4 fuel pool - which we are told is a 'mass extinction event waiting to happen' by all the usual sources.

No one reports that that is rubbish <http://ansnuclearcafe.org/2012/05/16/spent-fuel-at-fukushima-not-dangerous/ >

We get told that kids in Fukushima have a 35% occurrence of 'dangerous thyroid nodules <www.japantimes.co.jp/text/fl20120612hn.html>. No one apparently knows that the standards for analyzing such nodules indicate most are safe, and the use of ultrasound mean that much more are going to be found - as ultrasound tests have discovered that the old rate, which concerned nodules that could be felt, was far lower than the natural rate revealed by ultrasound.

Anyone interested in more education might want to look at the Journal of Radiological Protection http://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/ they've made a lot of their scholarly articles on Fukushima available free. All are eye-openers.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

basroil, 

so can we take it that you actually work at the Tomari NPP? It would explain why you are a strong defender of nuclear energy and even willing to twist the truth about the Fukushima nuclear disaster. The Tomari NPP has had it's share of events too. In the reactor stress test the Hokkaido Power Company, could not rule out the plant was vulnerable. The governor of Hokkaido refused permission to start the No3 reactor, Aug. last year.

I think the law requires evacuation of 20 km from a NPP when there's a nuclear disaster, and on reflection, it was the correct action, because even TEPCO couldn't know for certain what was going to happen at the Fukushima NPP. The No4 spent fuel pool could have collapsed which would have caused an even worse nuclear disaster than what happened. The reactors could have exploded and that too would have made it much worse.

The No3 reactor building exploded from a hydrogen explosion but the reactor also had at least one steam explosion. The suppression chamber on the No2 reactor was cracked and leaking deadly levels of radiation.

The correct action was to move people out of harms way. After the 20 km evacuation then people from those area getting high levels of radiation which in some locations was more than 150 microsieverts/hr.

The figures quoted by the WHO were not available during those periods of evacuation.

You have stated several times, on other posts that there's no radiation problem in Fukushima, inside or outside the no-go zone which contradicts the experts and the government. There are areas in Fukushima which still have levels of radiation above 50 millisieverts/yr.

It's not only those who live near to a NPP, but in fact the whole country. The ¥trillions cost of the nuclear disaster won't be paid for just by those living near a NPP, but by all present and future taxpayers, and also all customers of all the 9 mainland power companies since the cost of nuclear energy will rise with both the cost of the nuclear disaster and the ¥1.5 trillion cost of increasing safety at the NPP's.

The radiation from a nuclear disaster, like at Fukushima, does not stop where the local nuclear village ends. It spread over a very large area of the country.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Too true! Nobel Prise-winning physicist, isn't he?

Actually, Kenzaburo Oe is a Nobel Prize winning author. He won his prize for literature. A lot of his literary works deal with political, social and philosophical issues including nuclear weapons and nuclear power.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

I suppose those trying to twist the facts and truth of the nuclear disaster are tempting some kind of nuclear revisionism?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Remember hot summers with AC? I live that now? I don't have AC. Been here nearly 12 years and I am a fat, white whale and can live without. Shame the locals can't. It is THEIR needs that are causing all of this. As it is, i am STILL seeing windows open, AC on, neon lights on during the day.... when are the locals going to smarten up and demand that these selfish people be fines for their wasting of power?

Some perspective on having/using AC (air conditioning) may be in order. I don't recall where marie is residing, but there surely are places in this wonderful archipelago where AC is not a necessity. The necessity furthermore being dictated by the needs, circumstances, etc., age of the people. I've lived in the Chugoku district for more than 40 years and moved 6 times. When young I could endure the hot and humid summers without cooling, but older now it is hard. So dehumidifying at low power is something I can't do without for a month or two in the summer. Maybe each community has people who don't give a hoot about spending a fortune on running their cooling towers to cool the whole house (and in reverse heat it) in the season, like I have seen here. They may seem asocial, but they also may have their reasons. So let's not judge them too quickly. Just do what you can do yourself.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

tmarieJun. 23, 2012 - 10:27PM JST

Doesn't affect others outside of the area? Funny, I think the food coming from the area affects us. I think the crap they are dumping in the oceans affects us - and Hawaii for that matter. Nuclear power doesn't just affect one area, it affects huge masses of land and water. Everyone has a "right" to be concerned as the wind blows and carries this crap. Everyone has a "right" to voice concern.

Japan already has one of the most stringent food inspection and radiation safety limits in the world. In fact, it's so stringent that some foods are technically illegal by their radiation content even before the accident. The chances of receiving anything higher than background levels of radiation in food is slim, and the chance of dangerous levels is absolutely zero.

As for sea, the dispersed radiation is nearly indistinguishable from background in all parts except immediately outside the facility.

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

Basroil - well just like you, I also personally live in an area within a potential NPP fallout - Tokai - and unlike yours this area was also affected by last March fallout ( obviously not to the same tune as Fukushima - but substantially so ) and I am more than happy for people who live in Tokyo or Osaka or Fukuoka for that matter to have their say. This is an issue of national importance - not just local politics.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Many people commenting here are not aware that there are lots of researches that had been done even before the Fukushima crisis started. All those proposals for alternative power sources proved that Japan can sustain its power needs even without relying on NPP's and fossil fuels. Nothing has been implemented because those people on the seat wanted to push the use of NPP's for their own benefits. And I don't think I need to elaborate on that, everyone knows what I mean by those benefits. CHANGE is a word that people in the parliament are always ignoring and scrapping from their vocabulary. Most old Japanese people don't want to accept and make changes. That's why this country is not moving on. With regards to energy use, a lot of electricity us being wasted everyday and people are not aware of how much waste they are making each day. There wouldn't be any power shortage if everyone could learn how to use electric power appropriately.

45,000 is a record breaking number of people who went out on a protest here in Japan. It could be the start of the changes that this country needs. More and more people would come out on the streets for sure to have their voices be heard.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Presto, I'm in a city that is known for its hot and humid summers, thanks. Some of us don't "need" AC to survive. In fact, those who are no babies, elderly or ill can all do without if they "had" to. Any idea how much heat AC causes in cities? Is in everyone's best interests not to use it at all. Thing is though, most people demand their AC and 24 degree rooms. Their country is paying the price.

Basroil, it doesn't matter how strict the food rules are here if punishments are handed out when people break said rules. How many relabeling issues have there been? How many fines? Rules in this country and made to be broken and many do just that.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Too bad for the frightened; others need the juice for reality things like hospitals and factories and keeping your lights on.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

45,000 is a record breaking number of people who went out on a protest here in Japan

Where do you get 45,000 from?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Noda should have set up 20,000 treadmills so that the protesters could generate electricity for neighbors while they were protesting outside of it.

Put up a big billboard showing the amount of energy they are generating and they would come every day.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Basroil, you seem to be a bit misinformed. Japan does NOT have stringent food inspection. If they did we wouldn't have seen contaminated rice, beef, mushroom, tea, and most varieties of fruits and veggies for sale in the markets. I'd think it would be hard to live in Japan and not know these things.

Also, your comment on the impact of the radiation in the oceans is also way off the mark. If you are willing to change your mind then please read the article below. http://ukiahcommunityblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/fukushima-pacific-ocean-radiation-levels-up-45-million-times/

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Ben JackJun. 23, 2012 - 10:45PM JST

"Too true! Nobel Prise-winning physicist, isn't he?"

Actually, Kenzaburo Oe is a Nobel Prize winning author. He won his prize for literature. A lot of his literary works deal with political, social and philosophical issues including nuclear weapons and nuclear power.

Ah, so he doesn't know what he's talking about then? Tsch!

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Noda should have set up 20,000 treadmills so that the protesters could generate electricity for neighbors while they were protesting outside of it.

UR a genious!!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

kadenotokoJun. 23, 2012 - 11:31PM JST

Many people commenting here are not aware that there are lots of researches that had been done even before the Fukushima crisis started. All those proposals for alternative power sources proved that Japan can sustain its power needs even without relying on NPP's and fossil fuels. Nothing has been implemented because those people on the seat wanted to push the use of NPP's for their own benefits.

Sorry, nothing has been implemented because those pushing the alternative energy systems have no conception of basic scientific principles - like the difference between energy and power, and the need to provide large storage systems for erratic power production systems.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

During 1950 Japan produced Electrical power based on coal for 50%,hydro-powewr for 33% oil for 17%.Nuclear power was a recent addition as it fetched huge profits for its promoters among politicians,officials and business lobby.So,even to-day,Japan can give up Nuclear power and produce equivalent power from Geo-thermal,coal,oil and natural gas and other renewable resources as practised in Germany.Hence Japanese people should not believe that Nucleaer power is the only alternative as being propagated by the decision-makers who want to use people's demands as a cloak for making tonnes and tonnes of corruption money to be used for election campaigns and personal purposes.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

rzadigiJun. 24, 2012 - 12:09AM JST

Also, your comment on the impact of the radiation in the oceans is also way off the mark. If you are willing to change your mind then please read the article below. http://ukiahcommunityblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/fukushima-pacific-ocean-radiation-levels-up-45-million-times/

Wow, a Canadian Family Physician finds that radiation levels are up 45,000,000 times! Pity he hasn't been able to publish his scientific paper yet - I wonder why...

Mark Lynas provides a summary of a much better paper which got published in the prestigious PNAS: http://www.marklynas.org/2012/04/fukushimas-impact-on-the-ocean-environment-revealed/

A quote: "Accordingly, radiation doses to marine organisms further out than 30km from Fukushima are still dominated by the naturally-occurring radionuclides polonium-210 and potassium-40. The authors point out that just to reach the levels of radiation emitted by the natural polonium, caesium-137 levels in fish would have to be 1-3 orders of magnitude (10-1000x) higher than they observed in the waters off Japan."

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The question is only, can you make nuclear safe and after. Several months of casual research from the science of it and the ways the reactors can be made safe. I looked at the economics of it and even if the safest and most expencive nuke plants are bought it will still make sense to use nuclear. I feel bad for the japanese people by all rights they have the right to be scared and upset. But they shouldn't punish themselve needlessly by resorting to 3rd world fossil fuel. Or how about coal.. Then they can get mercury poisoning and die slower. Maybe they can place billions of solar panels up and make japan a reflective hotspot. Creating violent hurricanes.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

rzadigiJun. 24, 2012 - 12:09AM JST

Also, your comment on the impact of the radiation in the oceans is also way off the mark. If you are willing to change your mind then please read the article below. http://ukiahcommunityblog.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/fukushima-pacific-ocean-radiation-levels-up-45-million-times/

Interesting that I can't find any reviewed scientific papers supporting those claims. However, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/03/26/1120794109.full.pdf does contradict that blog quite well, and shows that the most concentrated radiations are less than the the natural radiation. In fact, without very specialized measuring tools (which the Japanese government seems not to have), the radiation levels are so small they can't be measured.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

@Star-viking What scientific proof do you need? Those researches weren't done by just anyone like you might be thinking of. A lot of Japanese scientific experts were involved in those studies. The main problem here is politics and not the large storage system nor the erratic power production system you're talking about. It all politics.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

basroil: there has been 2 nuclear accidents ranked at level 7, the maximum. This scale has been established by the nuclear establishment, thus this is a fact: massive spreading of nucleotides. Fukushima is then clearly a nuclear catastrophe, there is no other word. But put it simply: why NPP are not built in the middle of Tokyo if radiation and contamination are so safe? Transporting electricity on long distance reduces significantly the efficiency.

Don't waste your time into looking for scientific evidences! If one independent scientist brings any controversial evidence against NPP, he will be flooded by "expert" subsidized massively by NPP. I do not like the idea of conspiracy, but the NPP has been so long under the secret defense of the nuclear countries that in my humble opinion, no official communication is trustable.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@Clemen Simons, If you can understand Japanese you might want to clikc on the link below. It's from last Friday's TV Asahi's 10pm News. 20,000 was the number when I arrived at Nagatacho around 6:30pm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTuHOAW0DVM

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Public trust in scientists has declined significantly since the March 2011 earthquake, tsunami and nuclear disasters, according to a government annual report.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

kadenotokoJun. 24, 2012 - 01:11AM JST

@Star-viking What scientific proof do you need? Those researches weren't done by just anyone like you might be thinking of. A lot of Japanese scientific experts were involved in those studies. The main problem here is politics and not the large storage system nor the erratic power production system you're talking about. It all politics.

What proof I would need would be where all the pumped storage and batteries that are needed for a major shift to renewables will come from? We are talking about the need to potentially store tens to hundreds of GW of power.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Thank you, kadenotoko!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

kadenotoko:

Oops, already watched that one. It mentions 45,000 peeps........

You say 20,000 (just like JT).. Where do you get that No. from??

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

45,000 while the media report 10,000. That's pretty typical.

Better make the next one larger. If they still don't notice, make it larger again until they do. And again, and again. Keep it building. What's it going to take? 1 million? More?

Suddenly there is a whole country waking up and wanting their future for a change! Go Japan! You can do it!!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Star-viking.

The pumped storage of water is the battery. Upon release it creates electricity on demand. Then other renewables off peak pump the water back up. As a result it is generally used effectively for load balancing rather than a main system.

Heliothermal (solar thermal) Geothermal Hydrothermal for air conditioning a la Deep Lake Water Cooling example in Toronto Molten Salt electrical generation a la Spain example Biogas

and I haven't even mentioned solar panels yet or ending kerosene heetaas or improving building design

Not one thing is going to do it, but a mix of things that are practicable for a given area. So much opportunity!!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Cheers, looks substantial, but the vid is of last week's protest. Could be 5,000-ish people there.

I know, i didn't mean to sound like it was this one. It's nice to see what it's like on the ground though. But i was thinking mostly about crowd density of how it gets in the evening when a lot more people are off work. I would assume they come and go, so a snapshot of a certain moment in time could be 18,000 for this protest, but total number of attendees to be upwards of 30,000... just a thought though. Seems there is always a protest, every other day or so, but in a different place.

In any case, i didn't mean to confuse anyone. If you look on youtube, someone could have uploaded something from this one already... there's a whole bunch of different stuff from different times...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Doesn't Japan have a low energy foot print compared to some other greedy countries energy use/carbon use per person? At the moment the focus of some people seems shortsighted, luckily they are not in complete charge.

Sure improve the situation further medium or long term, but its unreasonable to expect change straight away when it comes to infrastructure without negative consequences which most seem oblivious to.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@basroil

Is this your basis for saying that Japan has very stringent nuclear screening processes? Where have you been for the past several months? Let me point out some actual events that have happened in relation to radiation:

Milk products recall Positive radiation detection in a lake in Gunma after the fishing season ended Gravel quarried within the 20-km no-go zone used to construct several buildings (and probably even sold somewhere else) Radiation in water used in toilets found in Kanagawa area

And as for the Tomari NPP, it likewise has a pending nuclear safety case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_whistleblowers#Setsuo_Fujiwara

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I spent 3 summers in Japan, did not turn on the AC in my apartment once. If you have a fan and drink lots of water AC is not necessary.

Good for you, you win a summer supply of 8X4.

I don't feel a need to pretend that 29C/82.2F is bearable indoors, no matter how much water drunk, or fans used.

Air-conditioning is vital, in Japan's stifling heat and humidity.

Until a better alternative is found, present power source is necessary.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

I just read that in Osaka there was a demo outside the KEPCO HQ, by 1,500 which will probably grow in numbers every Friday evening.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Star-Viking, Basroil, the issue that was brought up is Japan's food safety. The report I linked contained statistics from Japan's Fisheries Agency not a family physician. "Since a tsunami and earthquake destroyed the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant last March, radioactive cesium has consistently been found in 60 to 80 per cent of Japanese fishing catches each month tested by Japan’s Fisheries Agency." Luckily for Japan, Canada's radiation limits are 10x higher and allow most of these fish to enter the country. But after a year of contaminated foods entering the Japanese market it is no longer possible to believe the government when they tell us foods are safe. Although it must be nice to live in a bubble believing such things!!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There used to be this great bumper sticker in America in the 70's, it read "If you talk bad about farmers, don't talk with your mouth full!"

I think protesting is fine, dissent is a good thing- But a little reality would also not be out of the question, either.

Those who are protesting, use power, so while making their obligatory squeaks, reality is what it is...

Instead of protesting the unavoidable, why not ask the Govt. why it continues to be obliging the UN- with tax-payer funds for its continual pet projects, instead of investing those funds in alternative power, right here...?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@pamelot,

The reality of compromise is that you rarely get what you ask for. So one has to ask for a little more, so what you finally have to settle for is good enough for you.

This is why i support those protests. They know full well that they won't get what they are demanding, but their continued presence keeps politicians on their toes, and i'm all for that.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Persecution of Noda? He is not being hounded for his creed, color, nationality, sexual preference or hairstyle. He is being hounded for a decision he made that has the potential to have a negative effect on millions and did it against the will of the people for the sake of some rich men rightly losing their wealth.

This isn't persecution. This is justice!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

20,000???? I was watching one of the Sunday AM news shows and there was no way 20,000 people were in front of his residence. 200 maybe.....if that. Exaggerated to say the least.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The organizers put the number at 45,000

The police put the number at 11,000

so it must be soemwhere in between??

FFS!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Clemens Simon, Where do you get 45,000 from?

Sad… my earlier post is so ignored…(ToT)

Anyone interested in more education might want to look at the Journal of Radiological Protectionhttp://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/

Star-viking, thank you for the link. I’m going to read it carefully. Wish they could dumb it down a little so that I can understand better…

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Sad… my earlier post is so ignored…(ToT)

This:

It was on 報道ステーション (Hodo Station TV Asahi) last night. It said there were 45,000 protesters. (A week before there were 16,000) They gather every Friday evening in front of PM’s residence.

Not ignored at all. I watched it. I also read the other online news articles that stated that organizers put the number at 45,000. The police though put the number at 11,000. Which do you think is more realistic? The police's, right? Right.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Which do you think is more realistic?

tbh, I don't know...

Asahi says both numbers: the organizer states 40000, the police states 10000

http://www.asahi.com/national/update/0622/TKY201206220491.html

Yomiuri: police states 11000

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/e-japan/tokyo23/news/20120623-OYT8T00108.htm

Sankei: police states 11000

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/affairs/news/120623/crm12062300100000-n1.htm

Tokyo: the organizer states 45000

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/s/article/2012062390003515.html

AFP: 20000 (without source)

http://www.afpbb.com/article/disaster-accidents-crime/accidents/2885820/9158970

Those protesters gathered in 500~700m on the street.

If there were 11000 protesters= there were 15~22protesters/meter

If there were 45000 protesters= there were 64~90protesters/meter

1 ( +1 / -0 )

What would the police gain by lying about their number of 11,000人?

What would the organizers gain by lying about their number of 45,000人?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Like i've already said, i'm thinking the police give a "snapshot" number at a given moment, and the organizers keep track of who has come and gone throughout the day. So both numbers could be correct.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Curious Science of Counting a Crowd:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/_mobile/science/the-curious-science-of-counting-a-crowd

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Air-conditioning is vital, in Japan's stifling heat and humidity.

No, it isn't. I haven't used in it my 12 years here so it can't be "vital". Are you old, sick, pregnant? No? Than it isn't vital for you to turn it on. Vital doesn't equal comfortable. Shame there are millions that think like you. If more people changed their minds and turned off the AC, Oi wouldn't "need" to be restarted. Part of the problem or part of the solution. Where do you think you sit?

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

People seem to have forgotten, the reason why all the nuclear reactors were closed down was because there was a LEVEL 7 nuclear disaster, just 18 months ago.

And. Nobody. Died.

Let's compare that to how many people have died as a direct result of other energy forms over the past 15 months. The answer is substantially higher.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Those of you that marked the following as wrong clearly don't have any understanding of risk Assessment management.

Coasts are actually the best place for reactors

Last year there was an expert on CNN who said that no textbook in the world said that you should put seawater into a nuclear reactor when you hit problems. This was and is completely incorrect as mine did.

It could be argued that the Tohoku coast is should not have been considered for one based on the history of tsunamis In the region but to say that nuclear plants should not be positioned on coasts is completely and utterly wrong.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Heda_Madness

no one died from radiation, but more than 100 people died from the evacuation. More than 100,000 people were forced to flee from their homes and communities plunged into the darkness of the night, not even being told exactly what was happening. Plunged into the darkness of their lives and now having to struggle to cope with their daily lives.

It was decided by the gov't that all reactors must have stress tests. Some failed. It was the gov't which decided there must be a new atomic safety agency. It was the gov't which decided to rewrite it's energy policy which probably includes in future only 15% of power will come from nuclear energy. It was the gov't which decided it was better not to start any further reactors until the new atomic safety agency was functioning, sometime in Sept.

I expect we'll see 10-15 reactors operating by the end of the year.

We don't know how many people will have died because of an increase in LNG, coal and oil. But oil accounts for about 46% of total primary energy which mostly ends up in the combustion engine. How many will that kill. Lets ban all fossil fuel cars? BTW, I haven't owned a car since 1978,

Meanwhile, the nuclear disaster remains at LEVEL 7, set by the gov't and the IAEA.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

So, in other words, substantially less than have died as a result of other fuels in the last 15 months.

It's risk assessment. People will die in the summer because of blackouts. More than would have died from any evacuation. TMarie, is actually partly right, we need to reduce power. We ALL need to reduce power. But we ALL won't. In fact very, very, very few of us will do anything about it.

What the government needs to do is to double the price of electricity for anyone healthy, not pregnant and under the age of 60. Then people will reduce their need for it. And that would reduce the demand and enable that we don't need nuclear power.

But given the outcry of raising taxes to rebuild an entire region that was devastated by an earthquake and tsunami then that's not going to happen is it?

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Heda_Madness,

the cost of nuclear energy is set to rise at the rate of 1.6 yen/kWh for every 1 trillion yen cost of the nuclear disaster. One professor from Tokyo Uni has put the eventual cost at 50 trillion yen. The mainland power companies will need to spend about 1.5 trillion yen to increase the safety at their NPP's, that too will be added to the cost of nuclear energy, which by 2030, will cost more than energy from renewables.

Last month we reduced our power bill by 20%.

The government must consider the best road for power generation and if only 15% is coming from nuclear energy the rest will come from what?

If the government doubles the cost of power, which is already twice that of the US it would badly damage the economy. What are you going to do, have monthly inspections of people to see if they are healthy or pregnant? Many households have mixed people, healthy and older parents, so not healthy?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Nuclear power plants should never have been built in an earthquake prone country sitting on the ring-of-fire. The people were lied to in the mid 1950's by the gov't of the day because America wanted Japan to build them. Documents were hidden from public view.

But it was a wrong decision to build any along the Pacific Coast. The majority of NPP's in America are not on the coast.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Japan's electricity costs double that of the US.

But is a fraction of the price in New Zealand. A country which relies on it's electricity from 'green' energy.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

The majority of NPP's in America are not on the coast.

And this is wrong. And many, many, many experts have argued this point. As have many undergraduate students. As have I.

ALL British nuclear power plants are on the coast for the simple reason that when it all goes t!ts up you have one final option.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

And. Nobody. Died.

News to me. Funny, this article states otherwise.... http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Deaths_confirmed_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_0304111.html

TMarie, is actually partly right, we need to reduce power. We ALL need to reduce power. But we ALL won't. In fact very, very, very few of us will do anything about it.

I'm not "partly right". I am right. Japan needs to reduce its power consumption. Period. Regardless of if people want to or not, it needs to be done. I 100% a fee increase in this. Increase the fee on a percentage of power consumption. The more they use, the higher the increase. Same goes for companies. Pachinko might actually start to shut off some of their lights. Today I was out at 3:00, sunny day and a pachinko place had the freaken parking lot lights on. WTF? That should be criminal right now.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

basroil: I'm curious why you cannot address Zichi's comments. Is it that he presents to many facts to counter your assumptions?

Heda: I see you're back. What do you think of the latest Oi nuclear alert? given that I said it would happen and you got upset? Come on, let's hear the excuses how it was not so bad, the 12 hours it took to inform the public not a big deal, etc.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

You mean an alert that was dealt with?

I think it was an alert that was dealt with. I also wonder why it's news.

What's your point?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Heda_MadnessJun. 24, 2012 - 08:38PM JST

Japan's electricity costs double that of the US.

That depends where and when. It costs on average twice as much for power production than most countries, except for nuclear, which is only 50% more. Typical costs in Japan fluctuate by time of day, and while night time rates are comparable, daytime peak rates end up close to 60 yen/kWh

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

You're right. I'd forgotten about the two workers who had died.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I was only repeating what Zichi said. New Zealand's energy costs are significantly higher than Japan's.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

basroil: "Japan already has one of the most stringent food inspection and radiation safety limits in the world. "

And is quite well known as one of the worst in terms of mislabeling and outright lying about where the food comes from. But my guess is if I mentioned Fujiyo to you your head would bob like 'peko-chan's. Japanese food inspection of foreign imports is indeed very strict, but when it comes to domestic foods they tend to overlook a lot of stuff until it's been sent to the public and then after the fact they say, "Well, shucks.... we said it was up to the prefectures, not us!". But let me guess, you don't see this as a problem when it's domestic.

Japan not only has one of the most unreliable food inspection and radiation safety limit inspections in the world, it tops it with lies and the blind support of people like yourself. But wait! What is your relation to the issue -- if I recall correctly no one who is not directly related should ever have a voice. So do you work in the industry?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

A common argument or statement by some is that no one died from the nuclear disaster so everything is rosy. The massive cost of the disaster, the extend of the radiation contamination, or even the fact that so many uranium miners get cancer, or that the lives of more than 100,000 people were destroyed. People who by the way, believed the rhetoric from the gov't and the nuke industry that nuclear power was,

clean, cheap and safe.

Do people even know why America wanted Japan to build nuclear power plants. Because they knew back home that politically, it would be limited by the number of nuclear plants it could build, and that would mean not enough plutonium to build atomic weapons. So they got Japan to build nuclear plants which gave them the extra plutonium they needed for atomic weapons of mass destruction.

Ironic really, since Japan is the only country to have had atomic weapons dropped on it by America, and then America wants Japan's help to build more. Am I the only getting this? New released documents in America are revealing the real story.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Come on, Basroil... why should you be able to voice you opinion on the subject? I mean, you said yourself no one who is not working at an electric company should not be able to protest against the nuclear restart. Come on, bud! You are a food inspector, no? If not, you cannot have an opinion. I mean... based on your own statements.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Did you also know, that America too uses the system of open pools for storing spent nuclear fuel but they are running out of space, and by 2015, all their current pools will be full. Some of the spent fuel at the Fukushima NPP was being stored for America.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

basroil

Typical costs in Japan fluctuate by time of day, and while night time rates are comparable, daytime peak rates end up close to 60 yen/kWh

I don't know were you're getting that from. The cost of power is the same 24/7 but there's a new scheme to introduce different charges for over night power but a new kind of meter must be installed. This is now happening in Tokyo but will be very slow.

My monthly power charges from KEPCO are, basic charge ¥320, then the first 15kWh are charged at ¥6.44 going up to ¥8.40 from Jul.1, then the charge per kWh is ¥0.43 going up to ¥0.56 Jul.1. The increases are for the new feed-in-tariff from Jul.1

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Heda_Madness,

even though you say you have visited Fukushima several times, and eaten their foods, the view, feelings, experiences of the nuclear refugee's are no longer important to you?

Fukushima is probably the only prefecture in the country with near 100% opposition to any further use of nuclear energy.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

And that's because of the spread of misinformation. Inaccurate and scientifically incorrect inaccuracies.

We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Fukushima is probably the only prefecture in the country with near 100% opposition to any further use of nuclear energy.

At Fukushima-city council, among 38 council members:

17: approve restart of the Oi reactors

19: disapprove

2: no answer

http://mainichi.jp/area/fukushima/news/20120623ddlk07040124000c.html

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Heda_Madness,

And that's because of the spread of misinformation. Inaccurate and scientifically incorrect inaccuracies. We have nothing to fear but fear itself.

You are so incorrect this evening. There have been very lengthy and very long investigations by the gov't, TEPCO, IAEA, NSC, and even American atomic safety agencies. The last very long investigation and report was by the nuclear scientist, Dr Kenichi Ohmae. These amount to thousands of pages full of all the technical details anyone would want. I have read them all.

The fact that one third of the DJP politicians opposed the start of the Oi reactors. The 6.5 million signatures on a petition handed in to the PM.

Blair Herron, I was actually referring to the ordinary people living there. The gov't of Fukushima has stated that ever again will there be nuclear energy. Their plan is to become a major place for renewable energy.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Its amazing people will argue against nuclear power completely ignorant of the facts, so theres a chance it could go wrong, same for anything powerful or big. Nuclear is incredibly safer than anything else, and at the end of the day, radiation isnt half as dangerous as people believe. Flying aint natural either but I doubt you scream that all planes should be grounded cuz some fall out the sky.

The only cancer linked to nuclear plant radiation leaks is thyroid and its one of the most curable there is, but you fools would happily have a coal reactor churning out 100s of times more radiation and carcinogens on a daily basis

Renewable is a scam, its makes almost no power, and requires massive government subsidies

Nuclear Fusion thats what we need, and if you think thats dangerous dont even bother commenting, go and do some research.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

Heda_Madness

and what you are quoting is that probably the majority of people in Fukushima didn't overall get dangerous levels of radiation. That is probably correct. But that does not state the 750.000 tera becquerels of released radiation or that a large area is contaminated by radiation above 20 millisieverts/yr and some areas are contaminated above 50 millisieverts/yr and there are even some areas that are so contaminated, the gov't have stated no one will ever live in those places again.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

This week a gov't report was released stating that the majority of the Japanese no longer trust their scientists. For many, starting the reactors so soon after the second worse nuclear disaster in the history of the world is just too soon, especially since there's no new atomic safety agency and the gov't have done very little to restore the trust of the people over nuclear energy. The gov't thought the people who just fall into line, like they usually do, but this time a corner has been turned. There has no real assurances that the safety level at the atomic power plants as greatly improved. The power companies will spend ¥1.5 trillion to improve safety, but it will take 5 years.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

The Fukushima atomic power plant and it's immediate area, at least 10 km from the plant will remain a highly dangerous plant for many more decades to come. Even if TEPCO can discover some of the answers to the technical problems like removing the melted fuel, it will still take 50-100 years, to fully decommission the plant. The eventual cost will be equal to, and maybe even greater than, the prime mortgage melt down in America in 1998 which triggered the world wide financial meltdown. The cost of the prime mortgage meltdown was $650 billion.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Thomas - how much did nuclear energy get in govt. subsidies and tax breaks over the last few decades? Nuclear is incredibly safer than anything else? How far from Daiichi do you live to say such crap...I invite you to come up and live here in north Kanto / Tohoku area..see how quickly you would change your view..I,ll take the safety of renewables any day after the experiences of last year... You are way off.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"Nuclear is safe" - Joke of the day sponsored by TEPCO.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

zichiJun. 25, 2012 - 12:41AM JST

and what you are quoting is that probably the majority of people in Fukushima didn't overall get dangerous levels of radiation. That is probably correct. But that does not state the 750.000 tera becquerels of released radiation or that a large area is contaminated by radiation above 20 millisieverts/yr and some areas are contaminated above 50 millisieverts/yr and there are even some areas that are so contaminated, the gov't have stated no one will ever live in those places again.

My response was somehow gone, yet no message of removal so I'll repost as best as I can.

The figure of 750PBq is impossible to find anywhere, At most I see 550PBq for both iodine and cesium combined (cesium at lower 18PBq). Most of the radiation released though was in the form of xenon-133, which cannot irradiate land and is biologically inert. The half life of 5 days also means that that even just a year after the event, every PBq released is just 10 nano-Bq. However, research has shown that the release of cesium, which is the only real concern as all the other major components are now impossible to measure accurately, only deposited a maximum of 19% on land, mostly around the plant and a bit in the uninhabited mountain regions.

As for "large area", what do you mean by that? The total area contaminated with above 20mSv/yr in the first year (which includes xenon and iodine decay) is very small, maybe 5% of the evacuation area. Of that, regions that still receive over 20mSv a year is even smaller. Most of those were uninhabited to begin with, so it doesn't matter if the government won't allow people there, nobody was there to begin with.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

zichiJun. 25, 2012 - 01:23AM JST

The Fukushima atomic power plant and it's immediate area, at least 10 km from the plant will remain a highly dangerous plant for many more decades to come. Even if TEPCO can discover some of the answers to the technical problems like removing the melted fuel, it will still take 50-100 years, to fully decommission the plant. The eventual cost will be equal to, and maybe even greater than, the prime mortgage melt down in America in 1998 which triggered the world wide financial meltdown. The cost of the prime mortgage meltdown was $650 billion.

The most widely used figures are 1.1 trillion yen over 30 years for cleanup to reach normal radiation limits (several times lower than WHO recommended levels) conditions in populated areas. I fail to find any indication of 65 trillion yen, and in fact, the highest I can find is just 10 trillion yen.

Regardless, most areas are already safe, and actually have been since day one. These people should protest to have those areas deemed safe to be re-opened rather than protest something that does not affect them.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

How is nobody mentioning that nuclear power is far safer than coal per kilowatt hour. 4000 people die from coal power for every 1 person from nuclear power. Not to mention that the radioactivity from a coal processing plant is far more dangerous than nuclear plants. From "The Scientific American":

"the waste produced by coal plants is actually more radioactive than that generated by their nuclear counterparts. In fact, the fly ash emitted by a power plant—a by-product from burning coal for electricity—carries into the surrounding environment 100 times more radiation than a nuclear power plant producing the same amount of energy"

Coal is also a dirty fuel which is worse for the environment. I don't understand how so many people in this thread think nuclear energy is worse than coal, from which a large portion of Japanese energy is derived.

Until even cleaner forms of energy are in place, I'll take nuclear.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

It's actually all media that hates nuclear. As a result, protests like this are fueled by the media that is supposed to be neutral. Studies have shown that environmental scientists are as favorable towards nuclear as media is against (media produces 13 negative articles for every 20 articles, environmentalists have 13 positive ones), while power systems engineers are a staggering 16 positive for every 20 (and nuclear engineers 18 for 20).

If the media would follow their ethical, and in some places legal mandate of neutrality, protests like this one would be small or non-existant, and people would be complaining to go back into the exclusion zone instead.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

basroil: "As for "large area", what do you mean by that? The total area contaminated with above 20mSv/yr in the first year (which includes xenon and iodine decay) is very small, maybe 5% of the evacuation area. Of that, regions that still receive over 20mSv a year is even smaller."

I thought you said NONE of the evacuated area was contaminated!

"Yes, if you read the NISA reports, none of the evacuated cities were in any danger..." you said.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

smithinjapanJun. 25, 2012 - 02:33PM JST

I thought you said NONE of the evacuated area was contaminated!

"Yes, if you read the NISA reports, none of the evacuated cities were in any danger..." you said.

I find no contradictions. There are many areas in Japan not populated and certainly not city designation. In fact, almost 90% of Japan is useless land such as mountains, rivers, lakes, and small islands. Most of the contaminated area is in the mountains and immediately next to the plant (which was off limits before the accident). Unfortunately, many people also have the same over-reaction and forget to actually take a map and overlay it with other maps. I am sure that the people protesting never actually bothered to look at the fallout maps or current radiation reading maps, both which state vary different things to the government evacuation circles.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

basroil: "I find no contradictions."

Of course you don't. But take off the blinders and you may. You have contradicted yourself several times on this post alone, and when Zichi gave you the facts you simply failed to comment. You quite frankly said NO ONE needed to be evacuated, but later say, even by your own admittance, that maybe 5% of the evacuated area was contaminated.

"Unfortunately, many people also have the same over-reaction and forget to actually take a map and overlay it with other maps. I am sure that the people protesting never actually bothered to look at the fallout maps or current radiation reading maps, both which state vary different things to the government evacuation circles."

I'M sure the people protesting are worried about the future of their families, their nation, and themselves. Heaven forbid they have a right to voice it because a person with no relation to the accident says people with no relation should have no voice.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

basroil: "It's actually all media that hates nuclear. As a result, protests like this are fueled by the media that is supposed to be neutral."

BS. Just because you don't agree with a certain stance doesn't mean someone is not being neutral. I'm sure you would call it 'neutral' if they were pro-nuclear.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

smithinjapanJun. 25, 2012 - 03:19PM JST

Just because you don't agree with a certain stance doesn't mean someone is not being neutral. I'm sure you would call it 'neutral' if they were pro-nuclear.

Disagreeing with a stance is the meaning of not neutral. To be neutral, you need to be disengaged from the argument and simply find weak arguments where they are. To say you disagree with a stance (not argument) is to say that opinion will be introduced, and by definition opinion is bias. Protestors themselves use arguments, some which are flawed, some which have valid points to demonstrate their stance, but to now I have not seen those flawed arguments attacked by the media, especially arguments that make no scientific or financial sense for which the media has access to specialists to investigate.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

smithinjapanJun. 25, 2012 - 03:08PM JST

You have contradicted yourself several times on this post alone, and when Zichi gave you the facts you simply failed to comment. You quite frankly said NO ONE needed to be evacuated, but later say, even by your own admittance, that maybe 5% of the evacuated area was contaminated.

I will repeat myself one last time. The government designated an evacuation area as a radius from Fukushima Daiichi. WIthin that area are several town, two cities, and a mountain range. The cities and towns were evacuated. The cities and towns currently have safe levels of radiation. Some areas outside the cities, mainly the mountains and privately owned area around the plant have shown increased levels of radiation that are not recommended for habitation. The areas that needed to be evacuated (those with over 50mSv safe levels) did not include towns or cities. The areas legally obligated to evacuate by radiation level laws included some towns but no cities. The areas still above the legal limits do no include towns or cities. The actual areas evacuated include a large percent of uninhabited land. The actual areas with above legal radiation levels are a very tiny percent of actual areas evacuated, and located on uninhabited areas in the mountains and next to the plant.

I have yet to see zichi's maps, and therefore all information is from peer reviewed articles and government and TEPCO statements and publications. The peer reviewed articles are based on readings a hundred times more sensitive than TEPCO is able to produce.

I am certain that the protestors also make the mistake of confusing scales, as the sizes involved are much larger than people are able to visually grasp.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

basroil: You still miss the point completely. You have stated these people should not protest, but people are ALLOWED to protest! Nuclear power affects us all, whether the people around Fukushima were threatened or not -- we ARE threatened by nuclear power, and therefore anyone and everyone has a right to protest. And once again that right is not limited to job description.

"I have yet to see zichi's maps"

You have yet to counter his arguments which proved yours wrong, actually. Like I said, you have contradicted yourself several times on this thread, first and foremost you protesting the people you say have no right to protest.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Heda_Madness: "I think it was an alert that was dealt with. I also wonder why it's news. What's your point?"

Pretty clear what my point is -- well, okay, clear to those who wish to see and are not completely biased. Since you can't see it, I'll point it out for you -- these reactors have JUST been restarted and already there's been a serious problem.

Is it REALLY going to take a major city being irradiated for you guys to realize the dangers of nuclear power? When Fukushima became the world's second biggest nuclear disaster (still ongoing, I might add), Kan himself stated that he was very, very afraid they would have to evacuate Tokyo -- the world's densest city. If the management at Fukushima had it's way (ie. Shimizu) that would have happened. You guys can rely on organizations that have covered things up all the time for 'facts', and go on about media bias when you are argued against for your viewpoints, but the fact remains that nuclear power is unsafe and should be eliminated completely... NOW.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

**At Fukushima-city council, among 38 council members:

17: approve restart of the Oi reactors

19: disapprove

2: no answer**

And what do you think they were promised for an approval. Come on, do you not know how it works here?

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

tmarieJun. 25, 2012 - 07:08PM JST

**At Fukushima-city council, among 38 council members:

17: approve restart of the Oi reactors

19: disapprove

2: no answer**

How many of them know the difference between PWR and BWR? How many of them know all of the hundreds of toxins released by coal, oil, and gas power plants? How many of them know the financial implications of their biased choices? How many of them actually calculated the loss of quality of life for each option they had?

Just because a bunch of poorly educated ojiisans dislike something doesn't mean it's bad. Ask them about if foreigners should be allowed to work outside language education, or ask them if tattoos should be illegal. I bet you most will say no to the first and yes to the second.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

It took you 2;4 hours and the bet you could come up with was "a serious problem"

It wasn't.

What's it going to take..?

I spent a large part of my university degree studying this. I spent many hours reading about it and many hours writing about it. It's going to take a lot more than a few irrational and mostly uninformed opinions on a message board to change my thinking.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

The claim that nuclear power is unsafe and should be removed now is interesting. Though I'd doubt you could find any impartial person to agree with you.

I recently met someone from Tokyo gas, a researcher no less and I said you must be enjoying TEPCO's problems and the lack of nuclear power egc.

And he said not at all, he said we're screwed until we have a viable alternative It was almost as if he'd been reading my posts on here.

But I guess you wouldn't accept his thoughts either.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Heda_Madness: "It took you 2;4 hours and the bet you could come up with was "a serious problem""

I think you mean 'best', right? And I'm sorry I don't check in as often you do, apparently (I didn't see your comment, by the way).

"The claim that nuclear power is unsafe and should be removed now is interesting. Though I'd doubt you could find any impartial person to agree with you."

Yeah, anyone who agrees with me can't possibly be impartial, right? Isn't that the stance you took earlier when you said the mods were strictly 'anti-nuclear' and erased anything that was not? Talk about 'impartial', eh? :)

"But I guess you wouldn't accept his thoughts either."

I would listen and take them into account, if I heard them from him and not from you -- where I cannot verify if you're telling the truth or making it up.

As for it not being a serious problem, ANY problem at an NPP is serious, my friend.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Heda: "I spent many hours reading about it and many hours writing about it. It's going to take a lot more than a few irrational and mostly uninformed opinions on a message board to change my thinking."

Yes, clearly it's going to take a major city being irradiated for you to say, "Doh!". I agree, though, that we're in a pickle until we can come up with a viable, realistic alternative, but that's no reason to fall back on NPPs instead of going head on into development while continuing with what we're using now without the NPPs. We seem to have got on okay without them for the past little while and no amount of fearmongering over blackouts will change that.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Heda_MadnessJun. 25, 2012 - 09:32PM JST

And he said not at all, he said we're screwed until we have a viable alternative It was almost as if he'd been reading my posts on here.

Any electrical systems engineer will tell you the same. There is simply nothing they can do with the current lack of power

1 ( +6 / -5 )

I agree, though, that we're in a pickle until we can come up with a viable, realistic alternative, but that's no reason to fall back on NPPs instead of going head on into development while continuing with what we're using now without the NPPs

Coal fired power kills people. Gas fired power kills people. I've always said that we need to be moving towards 100% green power but until we get there then more people will die unless we use nuclear power. This is a statistical certainty. I won't give the numbers because it will be deleted.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

zichiJun. 24, 2012 - 08:19PM JST

the cost of nuclear energy is set to rise at the rate of 1.6 yen/kWh for every 1 trillion yen cost of the nuclear disaster. One professor from Tokyo Uni has put the eventual cost at 50 trillion yen. The mainland power companies will need to spend about 1.5 trillion yen to increase the safety at their NPP's, that too will be added to the cost of nuclear energy, which by 2030, will cost more than energy from renewables.

Let's assume we knock down the amount of Terawatt hours Nuclear used to produce down to 60% - to give us a figure of the cost of nuclear energy. We have to assume plants are turned on to arrive at a cost. 60% gives us around 170 TWhr, or 170,000,000,000 kWhr.

With the unnamed professor's figure of 50 trillion yen, and the increase rate of 1.6 yen/kWhr per trillion yen we get an increase of 80 yen per kWhr.

If we look at the power usable plants can provide (the 170 TWhr above), and assume the 50 trillion yen is applied directly to their output we get an increased cost of around 0.3 yen per kWhr. This suggests the professor is talking rubbish.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Just because a bunch of poorly educated ojiisans dislike something doesn't mean it's bad. Ask them about if foreigners should be allowed to work outside language education, or ask them if tattoos should be illegal. I bet you most will say no to the first and yes to the second.

And just because they say yes to something doesn't make it safe nor a good thing.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Back on topic please.

sf2kJun. 24, 2012 - 03:49AM JST

Star-viking.

The pumped storage of water is the battery. Upon release it creates electricity on demand. Then other renewables off peak pump the water back up. As a result it is generally used effectively for load balancing rather than a main system.

A good summary. However, pumped storage requires dams to be built, in fact two - one at the top of system, the other at the bottom. Areas which suit this condition are not widespread. That's why I also mentioned batteries. To store a lot of power will need a lot of these and cost a lot of money.

Heliothermal (solar thermal) Geothermal Hydrothermal for air conditioning a la Deep Lake Water Cooling example in Toronto Molten Salt electrical generation a la Spain example Biogas

Heliothermal requires a lot of salt, and flat terrain. Geothermal is good - but takes a long time to bring to fruition - and often the filed is a bust. Hydrothermal - access to big lakes is good for this, not so good for Japan.

and I haven't even mentioned solar panels yet or ending kerosene heetaas or improving building design

I would love to see the end of the kerosene heaters, better building design would be a must regardless of anyone's views on future energy policy.

Not one thing is going to do it, but a mix of things that are practicable for a given area. So much opportunity!!

I think you're being too hopeful. Personally I think a near zero-carbon economy is possible with renewables and nuclear, but not with one out of the picture.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

rzadigiJun. 24, 2012 - 09:39AM JST

Star-Viking, Basroil, the issue that was brought up is Japan's food safety. The report I linked contained statistics from Japan's Fisheries Agency not a family physician. "Since a tsunami and earthquake destroyed the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant last March, radioactive cesium has consistently been found in 60 to 80 per cent of Japanese fishing catches each month tested by Japan’s Fisheries Agency." Luckily for Japan, Canada's radiation limits are 10x higher and allow most of these fish to enter the country. But after a year of contaminated foods entering the Japanese market it is no longer possible to believe the government when they tell us foods are safe. Although it must be nice to live in a bubble believing such things!!

Gosh, you're right. It was a bit of a wandery article, so I misinterpreted it.

Interestingly, the 45,000,000,000-times increase in Pacific Ocean radiation is attributed to research done by Ken Buesseler and Nicholas Fisher. If you search for their research, with is pretty easy you find:

Fukushima-derived radionuclides in the ocean and biota off Japan, Buesseler et al, Proceedings of the Natural Academy of Sciences, April 17th 2012.

The link to the paper is http://www.pnas.org/content/109/16/5984.short

And the conclusions in their abstract are...DRUM ROLL...

"We address risks to public health and marine biota by showing that though Cs isotopes are elevated 10–1,000× over prior levels in waters off Japan, radiation risks due to these radionuclides are below those generally considered harmful to marine animals and human consumers, and even below those from naturally occurring radionuclides."

So your link, when followed up, shows no need to worry. What we should be worrying about is why the people behind such links as yours feel the need to lie and distort the work of scientists to get their points across.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Blair HerronJun. 24, 2012 - 11:20AM JST

Sad… my earlier post is so ignored…(ToT)

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again - none of your posts deserve to be ignored in any fashion. I may disagree on some points - but they're solid stuff.

Anyone interested in more education might want to look at the Journal of Radiological Protectionhttp://iopscience.iop.org/0952-4746/

Star-viking, thank you for the link. I’m going to read it carefully. Wish they could dumb it down a little so that I can understand better…

Believe it or not, me too! The problem with all the specialties that the sciences have is that they develop their own terminology (and this is a necessity, so the experts don't have to explain what they mean to each other every time they discuss things). However, the abstracts - the summaries at the start of the scientific papers, and the conclusions at the end can usually be understood without specialist knowledge.

It's a bit sad that my link opening up a largely free scientific resource garnered such a thumbs down. Sign of the times I guess.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Blair Herron Jun. 24, 2012 - 12:17PM JST

"Which do you think is more realistic?"

tbh, I don't know...

Asahi says both numbers: the organizer states 40000, the police states 10000

Those protesters gathered in 500~700m on the street.

And we have to factor in the width of the street and account for space being left for people just passing through. There never seems to be more than five people deep on the footpath, and even this tails off towards the end of the video I've seen.

If there were 11000 protesters= there were 15~22protesters/meter

If there were 45000 protesters= there were 64~90protesters/meter

Let's assume we have three people per metre length of the footpath. Let's be generous and assume 4 people wide over the whole length of the footpath.

At 500m long that means we get 6,000 people. At 700m long we get 8,400 people.

Certainly makes the larger figure - 45,000 people a big stretch. I could see the lower end by factoring in people joining and leaving. However, being a large protests myself - if they are static, and protests in front of places largely are, then you don't see too much movement in the mass of the protest - as it's too hard to get there or leave until the people start to disperse along the periphery.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Star-vikingJun. 25, 2012 - 10:44PM JST

Let's assume we knock down the amount of Terawatt hours Nuclear used to produce down to 60% - to give us a figure of the cost of nuclear energy. We have to assume plants are turned on to arrive at a cost. 60% gives us around 170 TWhr, or 170,000,000,000 kWhr.

With the unnamed professor's figure of 50 trillion yen, and the increase rate of 1.6 yen/kWhr per trillion yen we get an increase of 80 yen per kWhr.

Lets not forget that the government estimate for cleanup is only estimated to be 1.5 trillion yen over 30 years by the government, and even the highest reviewed amount is just 12 trillion yen over 30 years. So the better cost analysis is about 0.0025 yen per kWh over 30 years.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

star-viking,

you haven't been around the forum so much recently, so maybe you haven't followed the flow of my comments, so for your sake, I'll repeat some of what I've previously stated, but I don't have time to back track and find the links I know you will ask for.

A recent expert panel stated the cost of nuclear energy will increase ¥1.6/kWh or every ¥1 trillion cost of the nuclear disaster.  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-08/nuclear-accident-may-raise-japan-s-atomic-power-generation-costs.html

I think, we can assume the figure of ¥1.6 is based on the premise of the situation with the nuclear reactors prior to the 3/11 disaster when there were 35 reactors operating generating a maximum of 48GW. According to the gov't and leaks, the future use of nuclear energy will be limited to 15% of total power. We won't really know the gov't's intentions until it releases it's new energy policy at the end of July. If it's correct that nuclear energy will be limited to 15%, then the figure of increased costs of nuclear energy of ¥1.6/kWh will actually double, ¥3.2/kWh.

The expected costs of the nuclear disaster vary, but many experts and institutions put the cost in excess of ¥20 trillion. Dr. Tatsuhiko Kodama, Professor at the Research Centre for Advanced Science and Technology and Director, Radioisotope Centre, the University of Tokyo, thinks the cost will be ¥50 trillion ($623 billion) which would put it on par with the prime mortgage meltdown in 1998. http://www.economist.com/node/21549098

Dr. Kodama also gave evidence to the Diet on radiation. http://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2011/08/09/nuclear-radiation-dr-tatsuhiko-kodamas-testimony-to-the-house-of-representatives-japan/

In addition to the direct cost of the nuclear energy will rise because all of the 9 mainland power will have to spend ¥billions to increase the safety level of it's reactors. KEPCO have said it will spend more than ¥200 billion. Chubu is spending more than ¥200 billion. The total cost could be more than ¥1.5 trillion. I have also read it will cost ¥20 billion per reactor to increase safety standards. That does not include the costs of new sea walls, moving essential electrical systems, fitting water tight doors. Eventually, these costs will be added to the cost of both nuclear energy,and our monthly power bills.

Under Japanese Law, TEPCO is only liable for a maximum of ¥120 billion, no matter how much the eventual cost of thee nuclear disaster will be.

To date, the gov't has given TEPCO, ¥3.5 trillion. TEPCO will need ¥1.5/¥2.0 trillion for every year the nuclear disaster lasts. The amount of compensation TEPCO will have to pay (strike that out, because the taxpayer will pay) more than ¥5 trillion.

There are also other 'hidden costs'. The loss of economic output in the no-go zone is estimated by Roubini Global Economics to be $120 billion. That's money the gov't would have received tax on.

The nuclear reactors were built with massive gov't subsidies. To those like @basroil who has stated on this post "only qualified nuclear engineers and those living in nuke villages alongside the NPP's should get a say about whether the reactors should be started or not". Disregarding the affects of the nuclear disaster, every reactor is partly owned by the taxpayer. In Fukui there are 14 reactors which received ¥360 billion in building subsidies.

By 2030, the cost of power per kWh from nuclear energy will cost more than that from renewable energy. 20 years on the energy road is a short time, so the gov't is trying to understand it's future.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The reason why until today, there were no operating reactors because the gov't decided following the 3/11 nuclear disaster, the mandatory stress tests and the requests to the power companies to increase reactor safety, was the best action to take for the country at this time. 

On June 15, the gov't take permission to KEPCO to start it's No3/No4 Oi reactors. But it also stated that no further permissions will be given until the new atomic safety agency is functioning, probably by the end of Sept.

Prior to KEPCO receiving permission from the gov't, it stated that without it's Oi reactors it would have a 15% short fall in the maximum amount of power it could generate, which would be critical during the summer peak demand Jul-Aug, and also it would take 6-8 weeks to get those reactors to full power output.

I assume the stated period of 6-8 weeks meant 3-4 weeks per reactor because KEPCO can only start it's reactors, one-by-one.

Has KEPCO seemed certain it would actually get gov't permission for the reactor starts, it then stated the No3 reactor would reach power by mid July and No4 by end of July.

On Jun.15, the gov't gave it's permission and KEPCO stated it would take 10 days to clean the steam pipes and turbines to remove impurities which can damage the system and it has only one machine, so again the work on the reactors would be one-by-one.

KEPCO also "discovered" that in fact it also had an additional of 2.5GW from overnight pumped storage.

Today, according to chart by KEPCO, the maximum power available jumped by about 1.5GW. I think this is because it's No3 reactor is running and generating full power. That's only 10 days after being given gov't permission, which if their original stated periods are correct, KEPCO actually started the No3 reactor even before it received gov't permission. Does this break any laws, I don't know?

But I think today,Jun.25, one nuclear reactor is working again and I think within weeks the No4 will also be working.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The amount of compensation against TEPCO is about ¥5 trillion and that does not include the cost of the gov't buying any property or land inside the no-zone. Nor does it include the cost of the decontamination work inside the no-go zone, which is costing ¥13 billion.

Estimates of the total cost of the Fukushima catastrophe, including compensation, fluctuate wildly.  TEPCO was told by an advisory panel in October to prepare for claims of 4.5 trillion yen in the two years through March 2013.The private research institute, Japan Center for Economic Research put the bill over the next ten years at 5.7 trillion yen to 20 trillion yen or higher.29 But neither figure includes compensation to the farming and fisheries industries, though the latter does budget for the purchase of contaminated land inside the 20-km evacuation zone.  Some sources calculate the cost of buying up contaminated land alone at about 4 trillion yen.

http://www.japanfocus.org/-David-McNeill/3707

The gov't is trying to make a map of the radiation contamination inside the no-go zone. Basically, the gov't stated it will divide the areas into three types. Areas with radiation contamination between zero and 20 millisieverts/yr. This is the area, the gov't is trying to reduce the level of contamination and once complete, the people will be allowed to return. The second type of area will be when radiation contamination is between 20 to 50 millisieverts/yr. People will be advised not to return to those areas. The final third area is where the radiation contamination is above 50 millisieverts/yr. People will not be allowed to return to these areas. This third areea seems mostly to be the nearest to the NPP but also includes some towns or villages like Okuma where many of the NPP workers lived.

There are some areas outside the no-go zone which also have high levels of radiation. Today, on the MEXT site I see near Date, the level was 11 microsieverts/hr.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

NISA intends to enhance its monitoring of new research into an active fault under the Tsuruga nuclear power plant in Fukui Prefecture.   At a meeting with experts Friday, NISA officials said they will station an inspector at the Tsuruga facility on a full-time basis to monitor additional studies of the fault by the plant's operator, Japan Atomic Power Co.

Power companies paid out about ¥72.7 billion in dividends to municipalities nationwide in the last five years.Local governments that received the funds, especially those that are leading shareholders in their regional utilities, will likely come under pressure to more actively convey residents' views on key issues, including nuclear safety and electricity charges, according to experts.

A new gov't white paper touches on the Fukushima nuclear disaster, the 2012 white paper on antidisaster measures said it was regrettable that the prime minister's office could not obtain sufficient information amid the breakdown in the information collection and distribution networks, while the authorities could not provide sufficient support for evacuees.

A poll published by the Washington-based Pew Research Center showed 70% of Japanese surveyed wanted nuclear power reduced or eliminated. It also found 80% distrustful of the government’s ability to properly manage the nuclear industry and be candid about safety and environmental concerns.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Today, according to chart by KEPCO, the maximum power available jumped by about 1.5GW. I think this is because it's No3 reactor is running and generating full power. That's only 10 days after being given gov't permission, which if their original stated periods are correct, KEPCO actually started the No3 reactor even before it received gov't permission. Does this break any laws, I don't know?

Maybe so.

Or according to KEPCO, the supply capacity changes daily because:

Case of hydro power generations: Installed capacity is the amount of electricity generated that each power plant is able to output when they can get full amount of permitted river flow*, though the volume fluctuates every day. The amount of electricity generated decreases, depending on the season and weather.It also decreases when the river flow is smaller or when fallen leaves or dusts pour into river water after a hurricane. For some reason the generating facilities sometimes become unable to take in river water.

http://www.kepco.co.jp/setsuden/graph/pop/reference_suiryoku.html

case of thermal generations

http://www.kepco.co.jp/setsuden/graph/pop/reference_karyoku.html

case of purchase from other companies: Power purchase from IPP vary depends on contract (weekday, holiday, daytime, night time, etc),

http://www.kepco.co.jp/setsuden/graph/pop/reference_kounyu.html

KEPCO tends to generate power less on weekend and more on weekdays

6/16(sat) 23,670,000kw, 6/17(sun)22,870,000kw, 6/18(mon)23,800,000kw, 6/19(tue)24,650,000kw,6/20(wed)23,190,000kw,6/21(thr)24,550,000kw,6/22(fri)24,200,000kw,6/23(sat)22,570,000kw,6/24(sun)22,330,000kw,6/25(mon) 25,900,000kw,

0 ( +0 / -0 )

あら?見えてないわ・・・

KEPCO tends to generate power less on weekend and more on weekdays.

6/16(sat)23,670,000kw,

6/17(sun)22,870,000kw,

6/18(mon)23,800,000kw,

6/19(tue)24,650,000kw,

6/20(wed)23,190,000kw,

6/21(thr)24,550,000kw,

6/22(fri)24,200,000kw,

6/23(sat)22,570,000kw,

6/24(sun)22,330,000kw,

6/25(mon) 25,900,000kw,

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Blair

The fluctuation of output power for thermal and hydro was addressed on another thread.

The maximum peak usage exceeded 20GW only three days in April, none in May, and 8 days thus far in June. So of course, KEPCO is increasing power output from thermal and/or hydro or buying from other.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Blair Herron yes I understand that KEPCO generates less power on the weekends but it still the max that would be available. From your figures Fri.22, was 24.2GW and now it's 26.18GW? The max amount has started to go up and I wonder if that's to do with the No3 reactor which wasn't due to reach power until mid July.

If it's not connected with the No3 reactor then the max amount available in July will be higher than what has been stated by KEPCO so far.

Current max 26.18 + 2.5GW (reactors) + 2.5GW (over night pumped power) would put the max over 31GW which would be almost equal to their noraml 32GW but KEPCO is still talking about power shortages.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Following the government's decision, KEPCO started preparatory work toward restarting the No. 3 reactor, with an eye toward generating electricity as early as July 4 and full operation July 8, the utility said.Following the restart of the No. 3 reactor, preparations for restarting the No. 4 reactor will begin, with power generation expected as early as July 20, according to KEPCO.If everything goes according to schedule, both the Nos. 3 and 4 reactors will be in full operation as early as July 24, or Aug. 2 at the latest, it said. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/T120616002925.htm

KEPCO is seen facing an electricity supply shortfall of about 15 percent this summer.

KEPCO— forecasts a peak energy demand of 29,87GW for the end of July and August. 

Without nuclear power contributing to the supply, the maximum amount of electricity the utility can supply is 25,170,000 kilowatts for the end of July and 25,420,000 kilowatts in August from hydraulic, thermal and hydroelectric power, as well as power sent over by other utilities. The bigger capacity in August is due to the projected restart of some thermal generators as well as an increased supply of power from other companies.

If the two reactors at Oi are turned back on, they’d each provide 1,180,000 kilowatts. Adding the input from the two units to the total 25,420,000 kilowatt supply, the utility would still face a 7.8% shortage in at the end of July and a 6.9% shortage at the end of August.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2012/06/06/with-or-without-oi-summer-power-shortages-in-kansai/

The max power available from KEPCO, today Jun.26, is 26.18GW, we the reactor output is added 2 x 1.18GW that makes 28.54GW plus 2.5GW from over night pumped power, gives 31.04GW.

This figure of 31.04GW exceeds the peak demand of 29.87GW estimated by KEPCO.

So why is KEPCO still talking about power shortages.

Since I live in Kansai, and since KEPCO states every GW counts, in May I reduced our power bill by 20% and again this month June. So please excuse me for being interested in this?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

KEPCO  stated the power peak demand for Jul/Aug is 29.87GW. It also stated that it had discovered 2.5GW of pumped power added to it's max at this moment makes a total of 28.68GW.

The difference between 29.87GW and 28.68GW is 4% power shortage and not the 15% it has been quoting to get the reactors started. If we add the power from the reactors, the total of 31.04GW is greater than the 29.87GW KEPCO says it needs, and there's still a possibility of buying 5% from other power companies. KEPCO is also starting a scheme to buy back power saved by major companies.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Antinuclear groups demanded Monday that the government's nuclear watchdog investigate a possible active fault running directly underneath the Oi nuclear plant in Fukui Prefecture before Kansai Electric Power Co. fires reactors 3 and 4 back up. 

Seismic experts pointed out recently that a crush zone under the plant might be an active fault that could slide if nearby faults act up. That poses the risk of critical damage, they said.

Moderator: Please stop copying and pasting news from other sources.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

These protesters are idiots. They should try to re-call Noda. Can't re-call, then re-call the the elected officials of his party and allied parties. There must me a way. Protesting him, is a waste of time. Make those elected feel the fear.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Zichi

I would suggest not relying on a simple calculations done by WSJ but take into consideration the fluctuation of power outputs because of variables linked above by Blair.

For example, even though today's figure of 26.18 GW exceeds the 25.42 GW "August" estimate by KEPCO, by no means that that tranlsates to as a result of No.3 Oi reactor operating NOW.

http://www.kepco.co.jp/pressre/2012/pdf/0529_1j_01.pdf

As Blair indicated on his/her links to fluctuation in hydro power, the same can be said for thermal plants which as the link indicated, are operated at full capacity on some days, semi-full capacity on other days, periodic maintenance, or flat out mechanical failure due to over usage.

2.5GW (over night pumped power)

I don't know where you got this figure from but according to KEPCO, the added power for overnight as a result of No.3 operating is just +0.53 GW.

http://www.kepco.co.jp/pressre/2012/pdf/0622_4j_04.pdf

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Nigelboy,

KEPCO have said the summer peak demand will be 29.87GW plus a 3% margin, 0.89GW would require power generation of 30.76GW. The current max being generated now, at the time of this comment is, 26.18GW to which we can add 2.36GW (from the Oi reactors, 2 x 1.18GW) plus we can add 2.10GW from pumped hydro makes a total of 30.64GW, which is just about the max amount of power KEPCO needs for peak summer demand. KEPCO can also buy a further 5% from other power companies, which would give a total of 33.13GW.

The original statement by KEPCO that there would be a 15% power shortage was based on the summer of 2010, which was the hottest in many decades and unlikely to be repeated again this year. The demand for this year is down on last year. A 10% power reduction by KEPCO's major users will also increase the margins.

I realise that these figures don't leave any room for error, or should anything happen at one of it's thermal power plants. There's also the "buy back" scheme the gov't is putting in place, to buy back, power saved by major companies but I don't know how that will turn out until we see it operating.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20120618a2.html

If this is the situation, then I see no need for 2-hour rolling black outs. There's a lot of politics involved, and sides playing each other.

Six weeks will be needed for the two 1,180-megawatt reactors to reach full output, Akihiro Aoike, a Kansai Electric spokesman, said. Users in the Kansai region should prepare to conserve power even if the reactors are brought online because full production won’t be reached until after July, Edano told reporters on June 1.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-06-10/scientists-approve-restarting-japan-reactors

0 ( +2 / -2 )

KEPCO have said the summer peak demand will be 29.87GW plus a 3% margin, 0.89GW would require power generation of 30.76GW. The current max being generated now, at the time of this comment is, 26.18GW to which we can add 2.36GW (from the Oi reactors, 2 x 1.18GW) plus we can add 2.10GW from pumped hydro makes a total of 30.64GW, which is just about the max amount of power KEPCO needs for peak summer demand. KEPCO can also buy a further 5% from other power companies, which would give a total of 33.13GW.

Did you not comprehend the 2nd link?

Here's the breakdown. (August estimates without Oi reactors)

2.03 GW Hydro+ 14.72 GW Thermal+ 6.44 GW from other company+ 2.23GW (Overnight pump)=25.42 GW

The latest based on operation of No.3 Oi Reactor at full capacity.

2.03 GW Hydro+14.72 GW Thermal+6.44 GW from other company+2.76 GW (Overnight pump +0.53GW)+1.18 GW Oi No. 3 Reactor.=27.13 GW. (To add, this is based on increased output from thermal and additional purchase from other companies)

Again, both figures are "AUGUST 2012" estimates.

Last year, the highest usage was at 27.84 GW(Above 27.13 GW despite cool summer) on August 9th. The capacity was at 29.47GW that day. (94%)

The 29.87GW is based on the usage two summers ago which in all likelihood may not happen but it NEEDS TO BE CONSIDERED as a barometer.

Again, this is ALL indicated on the two links I provided. Please read them for I am NOT interested in your WILD calculations. Secondly, and hopefully finally, the 26.18 GW estimated for today does not mean the same output can be achieved in August!!! This is why Blair and myself have numerously given you links and information as to the VOLATILITY/SEASONAL OUTPUT CHANGES to thermal and hydro, respectively.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Nigelboy

if you are not interested in my comments, why are you always such a fan boy of them? You target my comments every time? After KEPCO got permission to start the reactors it also stated there were an additional 2GW of pumped hydro which it not included in previous figures.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@zichi, I really don’t know. If your speculation turned out to be true, KEPCO and the government are gonna be in BIG trouble.

in May I reduced our power bill by 20% and again this month June.

Be careful, zichi :) You said you had heatstroke three time last year.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Blair Herron,

I suppose come Sept., we 'll know what actually happened.?

I will use my ac if I feel my life is in danger.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Nigelboy

The thermal capacity from KEPCO is 17.7GW. It stated that all it's thermal plants are working and all maintenance has been cancelled until after the summer. You state hydro is 2.03GW when KEPCO has 4.2GW of capacity. KEPCO has stated it has 2.1GW of overnight pumped which is not included in figures for hydro. The 2 reactors are 1.18GW each, which is 2.36GW.

Total power without nuclear energy would be 34GW and with the 2 reactors, 36.36GW plus whatever additional power it buys plus the power buy scheme.

There's no mention of wind turbines and solar plant it has too.

You just accept the figures from KEPCO, I question them.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

If KEPCO is concerned about summer power shortages why did it only request the start of 2 reactors when the Oi plant has 4 reactors with a maximum capacity of about 4.7GW? Could it be that KEPCO have not completed the reactor stress tests on the other 2 reactors, 1&2?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Could it be that KEPCO have not completed the reactor stress tests on the other 2 reactors, 1&2?

I don’t know how reliable the source is, but according to white comomo, KEPCO has turned in the stress test on No.1.

No.2 is the worst 4 reactor in Japan because the ductile-brittle transition temperature(DBTT) (?) is 70℃. KEPCO has not turned in the test.

http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1289241977

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Zichi,

You question KEPCO's figures because you don't understand them. It's really that simple. You assume that thermal plants/turbines operate at full capacity 24/7. You assume the water level remains at optimum capacity everyday of the year and that there are no weather changes. You assume this despite countless efforts by others who pointed out the volatility of the output of them.

As for the other two Oi reactors, the no.2 commenced scheduled maintenance on December of last year while No. 1 completed the stress test and the report was submitted this January.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Blair HerronJun. 26, 2012 - 09:51AM JST

No.2 is the worst 4 reactor in Japan because the ductile-brittle transition temperature(DBTT) (?) is 70℃. KEPCO has not turned in the test.

Do you even understand what you wrote? Let me paraphrase my simple college materials science textbook: DBTT is the temperature for which a material changes from ductile to brittle failure when COOLING. So in a reactor vessel that is normally operating at temperatures above 500C, something that happens at 70C is meaningless. In fact, the reason why the transition temperature is higher is due to the type of steel used, which is stronger at higher temperatures. In the case of an accident, the temperature raises, not falls, so it is better for the material to be stronger at higher temperatures than low ones. The transition temperature for plain iron, in case you did not know, is somewhere in the -60C range depending on impurities and alloy.

Most of the protestors also pick random "facts" from anywhere and fail to properly understand the significance... or in this case insignificance of their findings.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

zichiJun. 26, 2012 - 08:20AM JST

The thermal capacity from KEPCO is 17.7GW. It stated that all it's thermal plants are working and all maintenance has been cancelled until after the summer. You state hydro is 2.03GW when KEPCO has 4.2GW of capacity. KEPCO has stated it has 2.1GW of overnight pumped which is not included in figures for hydro. The 2 reactors are 1.18GW each, which is 2.36GW.

KEPCO's hydro varies depending on water levels.

Total power without nuclear energy would be 34GW and with the 2 reactors, 36.36GW plus whatever additional power it buys plus the power buy scheme.

Above you just said 17.7+4.2+2.1 which is 24GW not 34, where did you magically find another ten GW? I smell copyright (lawyer) math.

There's no mention of wind turbines and solar plant it has too.

Together wind and solar are less than 1GW estimated, usually windy days are not sunny, and sunny days not windy. Some days are neither too.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Nigelboy,

but I do understand. What's important is what KEPCO can generate during it's daily peak demand period. During the summer months the hydro power runs without a problem. The problem is during the winter. Why didn't KEPCO request starting 3 reactors at Oi, probably because it knows it won't need it. Over night pumped power can happen evry night of the year, if it's needed.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

zichiJun. 25, 2012 - 11:52PM JST

A recent expert panel stated the cost of nuclear energy will increase ¥1.6/kWh or every ¥1 trillion cost of the nuclear disaster. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-08/nuclear-accident-may-raise-japan-s-atomic-power-generation-costs.html

I think, we can assume the figure of ¥1.6 is based on the premise of the situation with the nuclear reactors prior to the 3/11 disaster when there were 35 reactors operating generating a maximum of 48GW. According to the gov't and leaks, the future use of nuclear energy will be limited to 15% of total power. We won't really know the gov't's intentions until it releases it's new energy policy at the end of July. If it's correct that nuclear energy will be limited to 15%, then the figure of increased costs of nuclear energy of ¥1.6/kWh will actually double, ¥3.2/kWh.

We've already discussed this, your math is incorrect due to a fallacy of logic. The cost the article states is cost for retrofitting plants and insurance, not to pay out anything. Even so, it is cheaper than coal, gas, and oil. The cost increases are directly related to generation capacity, so the cost increases do not scale inversely to generation capacity, rather are a cost that increases linearly with generation. Even assuming 1.6 is a worse case scenario, and just assuming cleanup costs, even your unsubstantiated ones, over thirty years increases costs by just 0.0025 yen/kWh.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

basroil,

yes, I accept I made an error in my counting. The max capacity by KEPCO during the summer would be thermal, 17.7GW + hydro 4.2GW = reactors, 2.36GW + overnight pumped 2.1GW + buying from other power companies, 6GW. Total would be about 33GW and if only 90% was possible that would still be about 29GW, which is what KEPCO says it needs for summer demand.

So why didn't didn't KEPCO request to run 3 reactors?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@basroil

Do you even understand what you wrote?

Not really. And thank you for dumb it down for me. I have no intention to argue with you with technical words/scientific figures or anything because you are an engineer and I failed “calculus” in college. So please help me and make corrections when I post something wrong.

The source said 脆性遷移温度が70度. I just googled the word脆性遷移温度 and it says it’s called DBTT in English. CNIC also says Oi No.2 is worst 4 with DBTT 70℃.

http://cnic.jp/english/newsletter/nit148/nit148articles/irradiation_embrittlement.html

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Why didn't KEPCO request starting 3 reactors at Oi, probably because it knows it won't need it. Over night pumped power can happen evry night of the year, if it's needed.

Zichi

KEPCO submitted stress tests for Mihama No.3, Takahama No.1, and Oi No.1 from 12/21/2011 through 01/27/2012.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Blair HerronJun. 26, 2012 - 10:57AM JST

Not really. And thank you for dumb it down for me. I have no intention to argue with you with technical words/scientific figures or anything because you are an engineer and I failed “calculus” in college. So please help me and make corrections when I post something wrong.

The source said 脆性遷移温度が70度. I just googled the word脆性遷移温度 and it says it’s called DBTT in English. CNIC also says Oi No.2 is worst 4 with DBTT 70℃.

http://cnic.jp/english/newsletter/nit148/nit148articles/irradiation_embrittlement.html

First, CNIC is a group that specifically states they want to get rid of nuclear plants everywhere in the world, and has no research publications or peer reviewed articles.

Second, the only time that brittle transition is necessary in calculations is during emergency cooling when you can induce thermal shock. However, that requires no only activating the emergency core cooling, but somehow pumping in enough water to reduce the temperature from 300C to below the transition temperature, all within a very short period of time. HOWEVER, in the case of PWR, the emergency core cooling actually is fed in through the heat exchanger and not the core itself. The heat exchange rate is nowhere near high enough to cause any problems. Since Oi is a PWR, it is not susceptible to cooling shock induced failure, and the actual concerns are in high temperature creep and softening instead.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

citjaJun. 26, 2012 - 10:40AM JST

yes, I accept I made an error in my counting. The max capacity by KEPCO during the summer would be thermal, 17.7GW + hydro 4.2GW = reactors, 2.36GW + overnight pumped 2.1GW + buying from other power companies, 6GW. Total would be about 33GW and if only 90% was possible that would still be about 29GW, which is what KEPCO says it needs for summer demand.

So why didn't didn't KEPCO request to run 3 reactors?

Two reasons zichi/citja, first is that the government has yet to stamp the stress tests, second is that the government had stated it wouldn't allow more reactors to go online until their useless panel starts.

KEPCO can't buy 6GW from other companies, since they don't have that capacity to spare except for emergencies. The most you can expect is maybe 3GW, unless they order blackouts elsewhere to cover KEPCO area.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Readers, please keep the discussion focused on the demonstrations, not the technical details of nuclear power plants.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The sheer number of comments is enough to conclude how hot this topic still is. And yet, very few seem to know what they are talking about (which doesn't mean they do). The vast majority is just like babies: No, because... er... no; and i'll downgrade your post because... er... just because you're pro-nuclear! There. Most people are reacting emotionally, not rationally, and are not informed, at all. The very few who are pro-nuclear just get downgraded, sometimes for no apparent reason.

I'd be interested in knowing how much fossil-fuel energy was Japan using before shutting down all NPPs and after, both domestic and imported. Anyone? It's a simple question.

I'd also like to know: of all the people who are against nuclear power, how many have at least tried to learn something about it? Ya know, some wikipedia articles, some googling around, trying to see the pros and cons...? Any surveys on that?

Go ahead and downgrade. Your head's in the sand anyway.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Right now it is 78 degrees F in Kobe. I have one window open and windows covered partially. It is bearable and not too uncomfortable. I have a convection cooler instead of the usual air conditioner that I plan to use on hotter days and to cool the room before turning in at night.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

VespertoJun. 26, 2012 - 12:20PM JST

I'd be interested in knowing how much fossil-fuel energy was Japan using before shutting down all NPPs and after, both domestic and imported. Anyone? It's a simple question.

Japan used about 20-80% of their fossil fuel capacity before, since most was only for peak power and amount above base load varies depending on time of day and day to day. Now they are in the 60-90% use, with about 50% being used to provide base power (since hydro needs to refill, and due to small size it can't be used at 100% capacity round the clock). I doubt the protestors considered how overtaxing stations meant for peak power affects their health, wallets, and ability to get electrical power (some of these plants have been running longer than designed for, and without needed maintenance, some are hazardous to those around the plants and working in them).

I'd also like to know: of all the people who are against nuclear power, how many have at least tried to learn something about it? Ya know, some wikipedia articles, some googling around, trying to see the pros and cons...? Any surveys on that?

From the looks of it, very few. Though some like Blair Herron are more receptive to learning, we have a dozen others that seem like they don't. I do wish more would do the same, it would cut back the number of protesters and make the chance for timely reactor restarts higher.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Why didnt they shouts to the most possible candidates to be PM of Japan, Mr Noda is outgoing soon! I like that lady with loudspeakers, she was definances and has good guts!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

just-a-bigguyJun. 26, 2012 - 04:21PM JST

Why didnt they shouts to the most possible candidates to be PM of Japan, Mr Noda is outgoing soon! I like that lady with loudspeakers, she was definances and has good guts!

In fact, most protesters should never go anywhere near politics, as they are too focused on a single issue that they forget that a nation cannot run on ideology alone. Japan can't run on anti-nuclear sentiments, and in fact, currently can't run without nuclear period. These protesters still don't understand that their actions and the actions of similar minded folk have gotten several thousand people fired due to downsizing on energy fears.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Just imagine how much more we can do without nuclear energy once we add in alternative fuels.

Yeah like greenhouse gas emitting coal, oil and gas. Give me clean nuclear anytime...

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Japan can't run on anti-nuclear sentiments, and in fact, currently can't run without nuclear period

Well said. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't we generate the shortfall with solar, wind and tidal energy!

Umm, because we can't.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

zichiJun. 25, 2012 - 11:52PM JST

star-viking,

you haven't been around the forum so much recently, so maybe you haven't followed the flow of my comments, so for your sake, I'll repeat some of what I've previously stated, but I don't have time to back track and find the links I know you will ask for.

Thanks

A recent expert panel stated the cost of nuclear energy will increase ¥1.6/kWh or every ¥1 trillion cost of the nuclear disaster. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-08/nuclear-accident-may-raise-japan-s-atomic-power-generation-costs.html

I think, we can assume the figure of ¥1.6 is based on the premise of the situation with the nuclear reactors prior to the 3/11 disaster when there were 35 reactors operating generating a maximum of 48GW. According to the gov't and leaks, the future use of nuclear energy will be limited to 15% of total power. We won't really know the gov't's intentions until it releases it's new energy policy at the end of July. If it's correct that nuclear energy will be limited to 15%, then the figure of increased costs of nuclear energy of ¥1.6/kWh will actually double, ¥3.2/kWh.

I was assuming 60% usage, from the 2009 figures - but even if we go with all the reactors working that equates to 0.5 yen per kWhr.

The expected costs of the nuclear disaster vary, but many experts and institutions put the cost in excess of ¥20 trillion. Dr. Tatsuhiko Kodama, Professor at the Research Centre for Advanced Science and Technology and Director, Radioisotope Centre, the University of Tokyo, thinks the cost will be ¥50 trillion ($623 billion) which would put it on par with the prime mortgage meltdown in 1998. http://www.economist.com/node/21549098

The problem is - Dr. Kodama is not an expert on such things. He's a medical researcher.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Gotta luv them peeps who "consistently ignore the problem & downplay the risks."

Check these figures out from the "Monitoring Information of Environmental Radioactivity Level" website from the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology.

http://radioactivity.mext.go.jp/map/ja/

Here are some real time readings @ Fukushima (2012年06月30日 01時50分) inμSv/h @ 1 meter above ground.

夫沢三区地区集会所 @ 大熊町 @ 36.306μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 5 km from "The Plant"

小丸多目的集会所 @ 浪江町 @ 27.334μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 10 km from "The Plant"

川房公会堂 @ 南相馬市 @ 2.330μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 25 km from "The Plant"

上野川字境ノくき付近 @ 葛尾村 @ 1.186μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 30 km from "The Plant"

蕨平公民館 @ 飯舘村 @ 5.226μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 50 km from "The Plant"

酒蓋公園 @ 郡山市 @ 1.152μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 55 km from "The Plant"

新山霊園 @ 福島市 @ 1.595μSv/h @ 高さ:100cm @ 60 km from "The Plant"

These figures are high. Children & younger adults should avoid being exposed to such levels of radiation.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

What? No protestors tonight?! I guess it's only important on sunny days. Demonstrations in Japan - popular as long as the fad lasts much like the banana diet and the Tamagochi.

And to think that all those protestors last week and the week before were the ones who agreed with the construction of those reactors! Oh, the hypocrisy!!

1 ( +4 / -3 )

What? No protestors tonight?! I guess it's only important on sunny days. Demonstrations in Japan - popular as long as the fad lasts much like the banana diet and the Tamagochi.

What are you talking about, there were protesters today.

http://www.47news.jp/movie/general_national/post_7100

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

What the hell, why -3 thumb downs? Too many pro-nuke people? lol.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Why, all I did was say how there were protesters today with a link for proof, lol.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Another news:

http://news.tv-asahi.co.jp/news/web/html/220706035.html

Friday Anti-nuclear restart protest: "largest scale"

"Chaotic end to anti-nuke rally"

http://yfrog.com/1n7j7z

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

You worry about thumbs down. How old are you - 11?

Worry about how you just made a total ass out of yourself more ;).

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Amazing! I've never seen a protest like this in Japan before...!!

Anti-nuclear restarts protests during 6:30pm~8:30pm, Friday July 6:

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/23797708

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Have you seen any of those people protesting at the construction sites of those reactors way back then? Didn't think so!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Have you seen any of those people protesting at the construction sites of those reactors way back then? Didn't think so!

Uh... yeah. If that's the best that you can come up with then it is sad. lol.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

lol, I meant that it was such a dumb question that I was basically dumbfounded. lol.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

What? No protestors tonight?! I guess it's only important on sunny days

What utter nonsense. They are there every day. Go out there and check for yourself.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Nonsense. Yes, that's another way to describe their rather inconsistent behavior. I agree.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

LOL what the heck is up with these pro-nukers ignoring facts? This is a very old article... I guess this is the only way the pro-nukers sneak in to vote up their own propaganda... lol. How sad.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Not a very old article at all. As you can see from the date, it was put up only two weeks ago. The comments before mine continued all the way up to last week. You suggested yourself that these demonstrations continued up to yesterday. I wouldn't call that old news.

I'm not pro-nuke energy btw.

I AM anti-hypocrisy, though.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

And not having 20,000 Japanese demonstrators after any nuclear disaster or at the construction sites of the nuclear power plants built after such disasters really IS hypocritical.

It takes an average of five years to build one, so they had plenty of time! But no.... You would think these people were at least concerned  for their own safety and that of their children? 

Not a single F was given on any day, week, month or year after any of the following:

The NRX (Canada) disaster in 1952. The Scotland (United Kingdom) disaster in 1967. The Three Mile Island (USA) diaster happened in 1979. The Tsuruga (Japan) disaster in 1981. The Chernobyl (Ukraine) disaster in 1986. The Normandy (France) disaster also in 1986. The Hamm-Uentrop (Germany) disaster also in 1986. The New York (USA) disaster in 2005. The Kashiwazaki (Japan) disaster  in 2007. Etc. etc. etc. 

Instead, Japan built numerous nuclear power plants AFTER those disasters!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

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