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7 decades after WWII, many praise Germany, scorn JapanBy FOSTER KLUG SEOUL
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^I absolutely agree with every word of this.
Well, Germany has made amends and teaches its children the truth about the war.
Japan still can't quite apologize and teaches its children garbage.
After the war, the Japanese burned the records of their atrocities, and spent subsequent years downplaying or denying they ever took place. They became huffy whenever the victims brought up the mass killings, invasions, rapes, etc.
The Germans opened their records, and promoted activities related to the Holocaust, etc.
The Japanese apologies that eventually came were forced, in response to demands from their former victims and thus were not really sincere.
Newspaper polls find that the Japanese members of the public who favor apologies do so out of concern for Japan's own trade and diplomatic relations. The Japanese polls don't even ask whether apologies should be made simply because they're morally the right thing to do. That sense of morality over the issue doesn't even enter the Japanese mindset. For Germans, it's central.
Because, in the end, Japanese view the only problem with the war was they lost.
It is the digital age, one underlain by binary numbers. But it’s a bit disconcerting, especially given all of the information available through digital sources, that so many people take a binary approach to issues. The notion of spectrum seems to have been lost; no more grey areas. All is zero or one (I’m fully aware they can appear in combinations), black or white. Japan (bad, good), China (bad, good), Germany (bad, good). It also seems that many in this age don’t seem to be willing to use modals, but I assume that’s because modals ‘grey’ up their binary argument. To me, though, using ‘might have’ instead of ‘did’ lends more credibility to a perspective. But then I’m from the analogue era. Something else I’ve noticed is the reluctance to use quantifiers. An example ‘Japanese don’t… ‘. Today there are roughly 125 million Japanese. I believe within that population there are some Japanese who ‘do’ or who might not be aware or who just don’t care, or any other possibility along a spectrum of perspectives. My point, and it’s pretty binary, is that when I see ‘Japanese (or German, or Australian) without a quantifier or modal, I think the writer is a bigot and stop reading.
Exactly! The Germans, for the most part, are open and anti war.The Nazi salute is banned in Germany by law and the police often are seen to work against right wing groups However,the ranting and raving of the Japanese Right can be frequently heard here! War imagery and vehement hate speech directed against the US or China is a regular feature, it bellows from truck loudspeakers to intimidate any with an opposing view. Quite often the Uyoku will set up within close proximity to a koban. I have no illusions about the Japanese state's revisionist mind-set, add this to the woeful history teaching and myriad historical gaffes by its politicians and it is obvious why the world still doesn't trust the Japanese but can and does Germany.....
First, Europe and Asia are completely different. Second, Germany and Japan, like the article said, got two completely different treatments after WWII. This is the key:
Imagine if in Germany the winners had let Hitler and the ones like him just because they feared the Soviets...oops, in Germany wasn't possible because the Soviets were present, unlike in Japan.
Anyway, it would have been more interesting if the article had put Greece, it's a more balanced example since also Greece is asking for war compensation. Try to imagine if in this article they had chosen Greece for Germany, and Taiwan for Japan. You would have got the opposite feeling.
As Merkel stated in the press conference while her stay in Japan, she gave a lot of credit to France for their forward looking stance. France ain't no China. And Austria, who were forcefully annexed by Germany at that time do not seek an apology but rather showed remorse to other countries for their participation with the Nazi. Austria will never be Korea.
And Germany is still not free from this 'war related' events as in Greece who seeked war reprations.
I think what underlies all this is that Germany came to revile what it had become from about 1932 on. Losing the war was, is seen as just deserts for what it had done to its own people and people throughout Europe.
To be sure there is a portion of the dwindling number of Japanese WWII veterans who feel deep remorse for what Japan did and who despise the politics of, primarily, Abe's generation of leaders seeing in it the same roots of militarism and extremism that began in the late Taisho era. These rightists do not lament what Japan was from the early '30s until the end of the Pacific War, but lament that Japan lost. They feel shame but possess no empathy and feel no guilt. Deep down they still believe that other Asians are less than. Until this group, mostly in their 50s and 60s, passes on or are removed from power, Japan has little chance of becoming a "normal" nation. Even then, there will have been three post-war generations who were never made to understand what Japan did and why this is, however opportunistically employed, still is so deeply resented throughout Asia. You can't hold responsible the children and grandchildren of those responsible, but you can expect them to understand and accept what was done.
That being said, the same is true today of Mainland China and its post-war history as well of Russia's willingness to embrace a leader nearly as bad as any from Stalin onward.
It's not a matter of "better" neighbors, but completely different strategical choices made by the winners, and completely different political, cultural and historical context in general. Indeed, you should also consider how European countries were used to be in war between them for centuries, if in Europe we were to ask for apologies to each other all the times, our list would be too much long. xD For example, in North Italy there are some people who speak German, in South Italy there are some people who speak Spanish...my country is a cultural mix because we have been invaded many times from different European powers during the centuries.
That, too. The borders that shrank, expanded, states being split up thorughout history as a result of war countless times does that. In addition, Germamy's so-called 'atonement' is relegated to the Holocaust victims and very little to do with the states they invaded.
" see Japan as having continually gotten a free pass" That "pass" wasn't free - They got nuked!!!
FM Kishida sums it up when this comparison was raised.
"A simple comparison of Japan and Germany is inappropriate. The two countries differ in terms of what happened during the war, under what circumstances they engaged in post-war settlements, and which countries they have as neighbors"
And as Weizsäcker stated in Germany's version of an official apology, "The genocide of the Jews, however, is unprecedented in history.."
It's funny, but my wife and I had a conversation about this exact subject last night. It was triggered by the fact that we had watched an Australian TV show called Insight which brought together the grandsons of Hideki Tojo, Stalin and Truman to discuss history and what it was like to be the Grandsons of such men.
Tojo's Grandson was a very historically aware, articulate and circumspect man on the show - he had a balanced understanding of what his Grandfather had been involved in and why he had been tried and executed as well as the truth of broader Japanese aggression. He was, however, quite a positive and forward thinking guy that was interested in reconciliation. He gave a very good account of himself in what must have been a pretty uncomfortable situation.
But, a lot of the focus of the host's questioning did come back to him, and Japanese aggression, atrocities etc, and my wife got quite frustrated by that initially because she felt he was continually targeted (Truman's grandson suffered no such interrogation, despite his grandfather's hand in war crimes), however through our discussion she acknowledged that Japan and the Japanese simply don't learn or accept the truth about Japan's history in the war and that this ignorance is widely responsible for the fact that Japanese people are despised by this. She noted that German's don't suffer the same level of animosity and we discussed why that is.
It was an interesting and sobering discussion for me because my wife is very proudly Japanese, and rightfully so, but it was the first time I have ever heard her concede that the modern Japanese position on WW2 is quite deficient, which allows for revisionism, and right wing stupidity and a continual loathing by Japan's neighbours.
Yeah, good point. For example, you never saw Germany "apologizing" to Italy for German war crimes during WWII. Of course, in the first part of war Italy was allied with Germany and Japan, I know it. Later, when Italy signed the armistice with the Allies, Germany invaded Italy and they committed some atrocities. Also this way, I think Germany never forgave Italy for the betrayal, and many Italians never forgot German invasion. You could think it's stupid, but also now, when there is a football match between Italy and Germany, rivalry is huge, and the newspapers in both the countries can write very racist things about each other. Example of an old Der Spiegel cover: http://webitmag.it/der-spiegel-la-famosa-copertina-cui-si-bollava-litalia-come-un-paese-mafioso_2009/ I think feelings between Italians and Germans are very complex and interesting, historically speaking. :) Our countries are both in the EU, but we are always to the opposite in the way of thinking.
Germany did apologize for WW2 and outlawed Nazism and any symbol or speech that promotes Nazism. That is why the world could forgive Germany. Although a few former Japanese prime ministers apologized for WW2, the current prime minister and his staff had been paying respect at the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo, where 14 Class A war criminals were enshrined. That would be the equivalent of Germany's prime minister paying respect to Adolf Hitler at a national cemetery.
Actions speak louder than words. For all the good things that Japan has done and said, idiots can shoot those efforts down in a second. eg. visiting Yasukuni, tolerating hate speech and the uyoku (justifying by saying it is freedom of speech), denying Nanking, the sex slave issue, trying to change text books, ad nauseum.
Someone quoted the late Lee Kuan Yew in an article that I read yesterday; "To allow Japan to rearm, is like giving a drink to a recovering alcoholic."
Japan has a long way to go before she can be trusted.
Perception? I think not. Fact, I think so!
I think culture plays a huge part. In the West, we value individualism and individual responsibility above all else, so we generally find it unfair to hold the current generation responsible for the sins of their parents or grandparents. It's much easier to forgive and move on when there are few people alive left to blame.
Contrast that with Confucian societies in Asia where the community, family, filial piety and ancestor worship are still much more important than the individual. In these societies it's acceptable for people to be guilty by association. They still blame the son for the sins of the father and try to seek revenge or deny any wrong doing in order to avoid collective shame passing down through the generations. Unless there is a huge cultural shift, nothing will change.
@nigelboy: About Der Spiegel (the main weekly publication in Germany), it has always been "anti-Italian". For example, in 2012, after the sinking of the Costa Concordia, an article by journalist Jan Fleischhauer claimed that the escape of Schettino was basically normal, being an Italian captain, and went on saying that such behavior instead would never have been put in place by a German or an Englishman. So, what do you think about the real German feelings related to losing the war, when you see there's still hate for the Italian betrayal? ;)
Until Japan teaches history with a more balanced view then I expect Japan's denial of its atrocities and outright twisting of facts to continue for generations to come. The young Japanese will never know what went on and cannot be expected to because of what their government textbooks say. Consequently Japan will never reach the same status as Germany in the eyes of Korea and China.
Whilst people such as Abe don't care (because he probably sees them as an inferior race) it really hurts the country so much politically and economically. The rightist will say they don't need them but what about your people? They need jobs and want a future. A real shame this cannot be resolved once and for all.
This site is bordering on becoming blatantly anti-Japanese, even though it's based in Japan and caters to the (malcontent) expat community. Nice job using Wikipedia for your sources, by the way.
The biggest difference between post WWII Germany and Japan s that Germany doesn't have two neighboring countries that despite having settled all WWII issues and signed Peace Treaties and Treaties of Friendship in 1965 and 1972 are now in total denial and use Anti-Japan sentiment as an official political and diplomatic tool. Neither of these two countries even existed during WWII. The countries that did exist and actually fought Japan have no problem.
If we're looking back at WW2, I think it's worthwhile to look back at one of its prime causes, which to me was the unfinished business of WW1, which was brought to you by European colonial powers. In looking at WW1 I see - my interpretation of history - the fading empires of Britain, France, Russia, Italy, Austria-Hungary, the Ottomans and others having what ended up being their last chance to take over more land and dominate more people. At the end of the war, I see Japan, while wanting to establish its own empire, being racially insulted by the European Allies who were too busy carving up the world to consider the merits of its concerns. The stage was set at Versailles for the ugliest period in modern history, a period when there were worse guys but no good guys. No, I am not justifying German, Japanese or US atrocities. Each and all committed acts of evil.
I went to school in Germany and they make it a point to hammer home the atrocities of WW2. No white washing. The German's blame themselves utterly for what happened. They make no excuses. During my University years students were tasked with interviewing war veterans and survivors. You could see the pain in their faces -- the deep remorse. These feelings are shared by both the leaders and the people.
There are countless memorials and museums; death camps like Dachau are open to the public and the horrors of what happened there are out in the open for all to see. The town I lived in was reduced to rubble during the bombings (one of many) but they don't play the victim.
I cannot say the same is true in Japan. Whatever the reasons, Japan has not come close.
Anyway...an Italian newspaper, Il Giornale (that I consider trash, but it's another story...) that time replied to Der Spiegel article, if some people want to read here the whole thing:
Why am I telling these facts? Because the fairytale about everyone-forgave-Germany-in-Europe, we-are-all-friends-Germany-apologized-with-everyone, is getting old, and honestly, it doesn't show reality properly, in all its complexity. In Europe we are doing business as usual? YES! In Europe, everyone is happy and okay with the past? Not exactly, but we do business as usual, because, as I said, in Europe we were used to kill each other for so many centuries...WWII has been a huge tragedy but it's not like before it Europe was a calm continent.
@Torakichi I think many posters here are not anti Japanese but having lived in Japan, and having lived in other countries, can understand and make informed opinions. Ignorance of history is baffling to most foreigners but not the Japanese. For example, when Japanese young people go to Korea and praise the older generation of Koreans for being able to speak fluent Japanese and then not being able to understand the anger and contempt with which they are met shows a very deficient education system. Also,If you were a Chinese or Korean living in Japan, how do you think life would be?
C'mon Japan, you're being totally outclassed by Germany. Fess up!
Easy and shallow comparisons. The writer does not know histories of Japan, China and Korea very well. Cultural and geopolitical situations of european and asian countries totally different in those days.
I sense a great deal of defensiveness in your comment. That is unfortunate.
First, you should probably be aware that this article is posted on via the Associated Press, and has already appeared in the NY Times and hundreds of other newspapers and news websites around the world. So, like most all stories on less savory aspects of Japan, this article is appearing in the Japanese press only after it has become widely available overseas.
Also, given that Japan Today focuses on English-language news about Japan, it would have been extremely remiss not to publish this widely syndicated article.
Let me start by saying war is terrible and all sides do terrible things. Also that clearly while I think there is a place for Japan to be more open to the concerns of its neighbours I also see it is used as a political tool by other nations which would rather have a easy target than attend to their own issues.
As far as the on going feelings I think there are some factors that Japan hasn't done so well.
The Germans had a group of people, the Nazi's, to blame for what happened and to turn into the image of what they rejected, and they did and now continue to openly reject that group and ideals, despite of course many Germans of the day, and other countries along the way supporting the movement at that time in history.
Japan has, perhaps because of culture, its long term self imposed isolation or other reasons I openly admit I will probably never understand, has seemingly never been able to separate the people, and people are more or less the same everywhere, need to work, feed their families and so on, from the people in power who perverted the trust of the citizens to pursue their own ambitions and ideologies.
No doubt we will have the posters come on and accuse me of disliking Japan, when really it is them, who can't separate being critical of Japan's government, Japan big business and its past actions with the love of the country and the people that stand in the way of progress and reconciliation.
Japan certainly doesn't do itself many favours with some of the choices it makes now either, the current Prime minster is the Grandson of a person accused of A class war crimes, while I don't think the crimes of the Grandfather are transferred onto the Grandson, I think the only way for this to be OK is if he was openly apologetic and totally rejected that part of Japan's history, however this is nearly opposite to his position.
"Japan will never be another Germany."
Oh thank the almighty..
Really? Which countries did Britain and France acquire as colonies in the 1930s? If they were "busy" the list should be a long one.
The US won the war and wrote the post-war script. We have to follow it.
In 2014 in Tokyo (2014 mind you not 1974 here) I had people stand on black vans, wave big national Japanese flags and direct racist abuse at me about "foreigners" etc (so my Japanese girly at the time said as she got ready to have a pop back...she rocked!)
In Germany I've never had any abuse at all... and I come from England a country that bombed Germany to bits and "beat" them in two world wars. There is a massive difference between German and Japanese attitudes towards 'foreigners', which in my mind is directly related to the second world war and the attitudes that both countries took after the second world war. And for the record the Germans are much more open minded than the Japanese and given the choice of sitting in a bar with a bunch of Japanese or Germans I'd take the room with the Germans any day.
At the Dachau, the first concentration camp the Nazis set up outside of Munich, I saw a group of what looked like German 5 year olds with their teachers walking around the gas chamber and crematorium.
How many other colonies do you want they acquired? What they had wasn't already enough? Lol. You are speaking like they were thinking "oh, wait, imperialism is wrong".
According to the article, Indonesian dont have grudge against Japan. Now how about The Phillipinas, Vietnam, Singapore, and other countries that share the same sentiment that Indonesia? To me this article is so bias since it didnt take account of other Asian nations.
The AP journalist who wrote this article, Foster Klug, was named bureau chief of the AP in South Korea in April 2014. Before joining the AP in 2000, he taught English through the JET program in Nagasaki, Japan, and apparently speaks Japanese.
gokai_wo_manekuAUG. 13, 2015 - 08:13AM JST The US won the war and wrote the post-war script. We have to follow it.
The U.S. won? It wrote a post-war glorifying itself, but I'd say the nation most responsible for ending the war was Russia. Russia also suffered the most ( sorry Japan) though a strong argument can be made that Poland had it the worst.
You are not a South-European, why should German people feel themselves superior to you?
The problem here is that we should let this go. Wars started because of these small things, which in eyes of respective nations were big things filled with proud. No APOLOGY will ever give back my neighbours which were actually burned alive in house by German army, who accused them as spies. I dont really care about that anymore, because i live in modern age and see other priorities. I dont believe that all people of Korea, China, Poland, France, Former republics of Yugoslavia expects for war atrocities. Those are individual people who still live in past seeking something, which cant be given back anymore.After 70 years and so many lives lost, so many brutalities it is time that we let go and focus on real enemy. Ourselves. In the end we wont get anything back, hating Germany now for warcrimes wont do anything good. We have to fight nuclear power now and terrorism, not our past.
In other words you don't know or otherwise can't answer my question.
No surprise, there. Pro-Japanese revisionism is based on a fundamental ignorance of history.
On an absolute fundamental level, the problem Japan has is that the old boys' club-prescribed school curriculum is, shall we say, "selective" in its teachings of war history. Through no fault of their own, Japanese people are raised with a woefully inadequate account of Japan's wartime history and, more importantly, the attrocities committed at the hands of the IJA. I've studied here & I've seen the textbooks. I'm telling you, if Abe stuffs this speech up - prepare for another 50 years of bad blood between Japan & its neighbours.
As they say - admitting the problem is the first phase of recovery!
Maybe it is not known to most of you, that it took Germany some time too, to admit to it's past. In the first 20 years after the war nothing happened much. Adenauer (the first german chancellor) didn't want to talk about it and wanted to move forward. He always praised the "brave german soldier" In the 60s a few very important things happened, the Auschwitz trial in which for the first time, ordinary germans were sentenced for their crimes as guards in Auschwitz, sentenced by a german court. The proscecutor in that case, Fritz Bauer, had to overcome so many obstacles to start the trial, that he said once "when I leave my office I enter enemy territory" than their was the decission that there is no statute of limitations on nazi crimes, which was very important and made it possible to have Nazi trials still today. And there was a book "Die Unfähigkeit zu trauern. Grundlagen kollektiven Verhaltens (The Inability to Mourn: Principles of Collective Behaviour), first published in 1967, discussing why the Holocaust, the war crimes, and the sentiment of guilt on the offender's part were not dealt with adequately in post-war German society, by Alexander Mitscherlich.He pointed specifically to the Germans' inability to mourn their beloved leader, Adolf Hitler. Those events changed a lot in Germany. In Japan something like this never happened. Why? One reason is that Japan shifted to a more right and nationalistic policy during that time, with the help and support of the USA. Many left and liberal teachers, journalists and government workers were fired from their jobs. Former nationalists were put back in their place. Imagine if Germany would have done this. They would maybe have the some problem with their past.
laurence kramer good point. the japanese seem to have forgiven the americans for firebombing the civilian population and nukeing them at the same time. can't the rest of asia forgive the japanese for stabbing a few babies and rapping a few women. come on folks when war comes it comes to everyone
This attitude by the Japanese I think is what causes a lot of troubles. Instead of looking at similarities, they look at differences, about how Japan is different, instead of how they are the same.
There are many patriotic groups in Korea and China who depend on fanning the flames of hatred and fear of Japan to get money. While all this is going on, millions of Chinese and Korean tourists come to Japan and have a great time. I've said before, in Shinjuku, you can't walk from the Alta Building in front of Shinjuku Station to Isetan and not hear Chinese spoken, and Korean, Thai, sometimes Vietnamese and a few other languages I cannot identify. Chinese are becoming big players in Tokyo real estate too, buying up lots of condos (they cannot own property in China). Also, I've had a great time when I visited China. I understand that Chinese tourists are treated much better in Japan than Hong Kong or Taiwan. I'd like to say to the politicians "stuff it!", and leave us normal people alone! We live in the present, not the past.
You are trying some kind of revisionism, implying during the 30s France and the British Empire were thinking about how being a colonial power wasn't morally right. <_< Are you serious?
Only recently thanks to the efforts of South Korea.
Everybody can see that we asians dont deal very well with friendships with another countries. Just watch in HUMAN LIFE QUALITY INDEX. South Korea is the country with the worst community friendship in the whole word. We are not as friebdly as people in Europe. Also... this problems are only in the news since I lnow many Chinese and we don't talk crap about war.
The reality is somewhere between the two poles. Yes, Germany has done a lot of education and facing up to the past - but in the late 1970s, when my brother was an exchange student in southern Germany, he had teachers in his school who insisted that nearby Dachau had been constructed by the Allies to make Germany look bad and the Holocaust was a lie. Germany also had neighbors that were willing to forgive, which is important. Europe has such a long history of fighting and fluid borders that attitudes were a bit different and people realized they had to bury some of the past to work together against the Soviet "threat." Asia has a different history that has hampered things.
Japan hasn't done as much teaching, it emphasizes the victim mentality way too much and people seem unable to separate themselves from the state that caused the trouble, making it hard to condemn the past. (I'm American, yet I have no trouble condemning the US behavior in Vietnam. The government actions are NOT ME. For some reason, Japan seems less able to do that.) Japanese leaders also have an amazing ability to do the wrong thing PR wise. Japan has made an extraordinary number of apologies, but then they go and visit Yasukuni, etc. So that overshadows the positive steps taken. Japan did commit atrocities and the colonization of Korea was quite nasty, but anti-Japanese sentiment is definitely a handy political tool for leaders in both nations.
As for Yasukuni/military cemeteries, I was actually rather shocked ten years ago when I visited Arlington National Cemetery and saw the changing of the guard at the Tomb of the Unknowns - very and overtly militaristic. If you come right down to it, there are probably some folks interred in Arlington who'd fit the definition of war criminals. I don't condone Yasukuni one bit, but it's interesting to realize the gap might not be as broad as everyone thinks.
@Andreas Zachcial: nice and honest post, I don't get why some people want to deny how different was the way the winners handled Japan and Germany (and also Italy, my country, handled someway like Japan) after the war. It's something every single unbiased person knows...They act like revisionists, denying this part of hystory. :/
As a Japanese, I've never experience hatred of me at a personal level from Koreans or Chinese. But definitely on national level yes. Of course, I speak English to them so that may be a filter.
Indonesia was brutalized by the Dutch after WW2 so they have fresher memories than Japanese occupation and the Dutch may not want to talk about German war crimes as they do not want to face the crimes they committed in Indonesia.
" 7 decades after WWII, many praise Germany, scorn Japan
Only recently thanks to the efforts of South Korea. "
@tinawatanabe Stop it please. Take break from korea bashing.
Both Japan and Germany paid a heavy price for the behavior of over 70 years ago. They both remain peacful and both economy's thrived. I suspect more envy than true disgust or hatred. Both nations are not likely to be an offensive force anytime in the near future.
And I am so mad about those hypocritical US media and politicians who remind Japan to admit to their past. We have a saying in Germany "Don't throw with rocks if you are sitting in a glass house" Where is the apology from the US about slavery, the genocide of the native americans, vietnam, Chile, etc ? They still have the genocidaire Andrew Jackson on their 20$ bill. the bridge in Selma still bears the name of a KKK leader, their is no monument in the entire US to the victims of the slavery. I believe Japan is a bit ahead admiting to their crimes, at least they don't have Tojo on their currency.
Once in mainland China I was having a casual conversation on the street and mentioned I lived in Japan, and a man glared at me with what could only be described as an expression of pure hatred. I was speaking in Chinese, so perhaps that may be a different kind of filter. Maybe it just depends on who you talk to, or what the morning's headlines read in the Beijing People's Daily, or maybe he'd had a spat with his wife. Who knows?
I do feel that as long as China and South Korea incorporate "hating Japan" as part of their school curriculums, things are unlikely to get better. Japan should not console itself that relations are improving because millions of Chinese visit here. Chinese want to go overseas and shop, the visa waiver system makes entry easy, and the cost of a 3- or 4-day group tour to a neighboring country makes Japan affordable.
Indeed, Europe is such a "crazy" continent, but historically speaking, it's very interesting. For example, about Germany and Italy, as I said, I think there are some negative feeling between them, BUT I didn't mean to say there are only these feelings...They say "Italians respect Germans but they don't love them, Germans love Italians but they don't respect them" or something like that. And it's someway true... ;)
I believe something similar does exist also between Japanese people and Chinese/Korean people. Feelings are never black and white!
Not at all. Not everything in Japan is perfect. EVERY country and EVERY place on Earth has negative attributes. This is absolutely without question one of Japans. Most Japanese I have talked to about the war are oblivious to it. Just visit "peace" museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and then visit the war museums in Okinawa. You would swear they are talking about two different wars. In main land Japan the "truth" and "history" of WW2 is so whitewashed it isnt even funny. This is fact and in large part because of the USA and Aliies efforts in order to establish a military presence in the pacific to counter the spread of Communism and Russia into south east Asia.
Let me ask you something. What if the USA just ignored slavery? Slavery is a horrible stain on American culture but it is something I was taught about as a child and it is something we are taught was awful and it was something we own up to and deeply regret. When I was working in public schools and my students would come back from a trip to a museum they would simply come back angry that the USA dropped a nuclear bomb on them. That is all they would take away from the experience, because that is all the experience is. Many in Japan are simply taught to be sorry they lost the war. I LOVE Japan. I have lived here nearly 1/4 of my life, it is not anti-Japan to recognize they do not treat some aspects of their history with the same truth, remorse, and clarity as other countries and cultures.
Again, very good post. I agree with your point of view and feelings completely! :)
el: Correct in all you wrote. Especially about the unknown...and possibly some really bad soldiers prayed to there yearly at Arlington.
No, it isn't, it is so pro-Japanese in so many ways that reading some of these comments here so far makes me think the censorship mob is off sleeping somewhere.
Typically anti-Japanese posts are deleted soon after they are posted, ANYTHING anti-Japanese, and particularly anti-Abe.
Just like this post will soon disappear as well!
Moderator: Please stop making snide remarks about Japan Today. You have been on the discussion board long enough to know the rules. Please confine your comments to what is in the story.
The difference is that Germany has civilized neighbors. Japan has China and Korea.
One big difference that is not mentioned in this article is, Germany denounced all their war criminals, whereas, Japan enshrined theirs and still to this day pay their respects to them. There is also the unresolved issues of the sex slaves or, as the Japanese put it, comfort women and the massacre in China, both of which Japan keeps trying to downplay and rewrite the history textbooks about these atrocities. There has been no such denials by Germany. It should be no surprise that, Japan is still hated throughout Asia for its actions in the first half of last century, simply because they still believe in what they did. Having a grandson of a war criminal as Prime Minister is in itself a slap in the face for all victims of Japan's imperial rule.
The problem is that Japan apparently lives in an alternative reality where global rules and concepts of good and evil do not apply. Germany did the right thing. Japan's politicians cannot break free from this alt reality given the mindset they operate under. Not for another 70 years. Or more!
I would suggest that your idea of what is globally recognized is not the standard. You fair to understand that this is Asia, and "western" standards dont apply in all cases, which you seem to think are the norm. Just because the US or Europe follows a certain path does not make it "global"
I would suggest that the US and Europe follow Asian ways once in a while, they might learn something.
Will this article be translated into Japanese, Mr. Klug? It would be great to see the responses of the Japanese public and/or Japanese historians and sociologists.
Micheal Rhian Driscoll
The Germans have manned up & taken ownership of their mistakes. Japan has not. It's a damn shame & a stain on the character of this otherwise extraordinary ancient culture.
^ I'm Japanese and I don't have any issue with article. Of course its a sample size of 1
There's thing called "A Formal, Official Government Apology" that both East and West Germany documented, had signed by their respective parliaments and respective prime ministers and presidents, then formally gave and delivered to each and every one of the nations Germany invaded 1939-41; not singular, personal apologies made by singular government officials, spoken on foreign soil, which were then, in turn, given distance by their home governments and "explained" by said singular government officials when they came home from abroad.
If the Government of Japan is serious about making amends for the war, for her aggression, it might be good to have an apology drawn up by one of the houses of parliament, signed by both houses, signed by the prime minister and his cabinet, and signed-and-sealed by the Emperor, then delivered as a document to each of the nations that felt the boot of the Imperial Japanese Military. This would be a great starting point. Singular, personal apologies by government officials spoken on foreign soil, only to be given distance by the Japanese government and have an "explanation" given by said government officials upon their return home won't get it done...
EUMA network of countries self-conception/perception to nationality, customs, society in general is vastly different to their APAC counterparts.
My own personal experiences with strong family ties both in UK and Japan reveals a marked difference in cultural attitude to atonement, retribution, reconciliation. Family in Japan have a marked intolerance to individualism, prioritizing community and togetherness. My attitude towards wealth accumulation irritates, infuriates traditional beliefs within the family. Politics and the influence of government is another source of tension.
Historic subjectivity has a powerful influence to play, especially in perceptions to schooling and education of past events that fail to fully embrace atonement. Clearly sections within the current ruling political establishment receive undue media attention to peddle rhetoric that is not representative of mainstream society.
These Politicians have in many respects hijacked the political agenda within government, are responsible for the 'frequent whitewashing of history' and will continue to do so without a organised/credible opposition in the Diet. The people of Japan have fully committed to a pacifist constitution, I think that is something to be proud of.
Deutsch Schule Ikebukuro
During the red purge MacArthur and the US gave Japan back to the people who were mostly responsible for the war. After that they made sure never to lose their hand on the power ever again. And from those people you expect an honest apology? I mean, Abe or Aso and so on would have to condemn their parents or grandparents. Will never happen. But you have to know who is responsible for that. To condemn the japanese leaders is too easy and not right. http://japanfocus.org/-Hirata-Tetsuo/2462/article.html
The Germans basically washed their hands by placing all the blame on the Nazi party. The allies basically differenciated Germany with Nazis by calling them "Nazi Germany" and not plain Germany. So once Germany was rid of the Nazis they were able seperate from whatever happened during the war.
Japan didn't have that luxury of a scapegoat like Germany, that is the difference.
Performing Political Apologies......A thought for the ruling LDP...
We argue that the performative dimensions of apologies are the key to understanding why they play such an influential role in coming to terms with traumatic events. It is not by accident that religious apologies were usually performed as part of services and rituals of atonement. These performative dimensions rendered the act of offering forgiveness far more powerful. It remained enshrined in the memory of those attending the service. And so it can be in politics: an apology is remembered as much by how it is given than by what it contains.
Those who seek to develop a deeper understanding of these issues should read Ian Buruma`s "The Wages of Guilt: Memories of War in Germany and Japan" and "Japan at War - An Oral History" by T. and H. Cook.
As I pointed out earlier there seems to be an issue where people like TinaW seem unable to separate, the Japanese people and the Japanese government, and its past.
Raising an issue about one aspect of the past or having an opinion on a particular policy doesn't constitute "bashing" the whole country.
All countries have their good and bad, I love my country of origin but am quite happy to discuss my issues with the government and perhaps a little more inline with this topic the terrible treatment of the native people early in its history, and the issue that continue from that time and the varied public attitudes to it, this doesn't mean I have any less love for my country, just that I hope and strive for better and thats what makes a country great in my opinion. Blind adherence to old ideas, when they don't have merit, is not only stifling to progress its dangerous.
@Triring precisely what I said earlier but scapegoats are generally created and Japan has had a long time to do that.. but as others point out its unlikely you will get people assigning the blame to their own families as would be the case now.
This. Sadly many people don't want to admit this fact!
The Allies behaved in a similar attitude in Italy. My country didn't get even a trial for the war crimes committed like the other Axis Powers. And you know what? Churchill admired Mussolini!
Winston Churchill, 11th, November, 1938
and the Nazis was officially elected government by German people.
For me it would have been more interesting to read how other colonial powers have atoned for their past sins and what apologies they have offered. The French to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, the Dutch to Indonesia, the US to the Philippines, the British to Burma and especialy to India. Because I never read about apologies and reparations given or demands for such. THAT would be an interesting article; comparing Japan to Britain or France, instead of the classic with Germany all Korean and Chinese nationalists like to do.
I generally agree with this, though I think Germany's reputation has taken a bit if a hit recently due to its hardline against Greece. The Greeks brought up reparations for wartime atrocities in negotiations and were quick to point out how forgiving they had been of post war German debts.
On the other hand, Germany doesn't have politicians giving half hearted apologies and then immediately making comments to reneg on them, nor do its politicians frequently pay visits to shrines dedicated to war criminals.
And the Germans went out of their way to distance themselves from that government.
@tinawatanabe So those crafty Germans had created plan to create scapegoat for losing a war starting in 1933...they are much smarter than us Japanese...
Whaaaaaaat? You got a real partisan movement only in Italy, not in Germany!
Tammy Bondhus Morimoto
I haven't heard any anti-Japanese sentiments from anybody I've known from the Philippines, Thailand, or Malaysia. In fact, some Phillipinas I know said their people like Japan. We know that many Chinese and Koreans don't like Japan. (A Chinese friend said that most Chinese aren't really like that though.) Is there a lot of strong anti-Japan sentiment in Asian countries other than China and the Koreas ?
Panel Tells Japanese Prime Minister Abe That Japan Committed 'Aggression' In World War Two
Germany says "We made a horrible mistake which no apology can atone for, and we must make sure such a thing never happens again".
Japan says "The war was regrettable", and then the litany of the dropping of atomic bombs begins, and Japan tries to use the latter to cloud the former, much like a burglar who got his arm broken when trying to rob a shop, he cries about his arm, and doesn't mention the act which led to his arm being broken. To this day, Japan still cannot fully comprehend their actions during the war (as these actions are never talked about, or mentioned in schools), or fully accept that Japan was defeated. In 1945 many Japanese said that "the war is over", or that "the war has stopped", but very few said "we lost the war". It is hard to apologise for an act which one refuses to comprehend or discuss.
@sangetsu03 You make good point. As someone pointed out in comments, one reason Japan never really apologized for its actions in WWII is that americans allowed people responsible for crimes to form government after war and purged all anti-Imperialists. Personally I have no problem apologizing for war crimes committed by my country, but I am one guy.
Thanks. I read that excerpt. I didn't think it was so good. People who think it's defending Japanese colonialism are crazy.
Credit to Wilson Lee link, full report .....Eng Translation ...
August 6, 2015 - The Advisory Panel on the History of the 20th Century and on Japan’s Role and World Order in the 21st Century
At least the Japanese people don't try to evade the responsiblity by distancing themselves from the govt during the war.
They just try to rewrite history to make it look like the government of the time did no wrong.
Which is way worse.
The problem of compensations, reparations, apologies etc. with China and South Korea was settled in 60-70s. But since then both countries grew stronger and decided to cut a better deal, get more money. Murayama apologized, Kono apologized. What do Chinese and Koreans want, every Japanese prime minister saying "sorry" every year? Whatever Japan do, whatever Japanese politicians say, China and South Korea would never be satisfied, they would always demand "more sincere remorses and apologies" and more compensations. Very useful tool to put pressure on Japan and demand concessions. And of course, anti-Japanese fervor unites populace, distracts from fiascos of embattled governments in Seoul and Beijing.
Some Western people would like that Japan said "We have started our imperialist policy for the same reasons why France, Belgium, Spain, Great Britain, etc. started their own imperialist policy".
Sorry, the West can't force Japan to say this, because if Japan hadn't started the same kind of policy, a Western country would have invaded Japan, nobody can deny this evidence. Its colonialism has been aggression. It has been very cruel. In this sense it hasn't been different from Western colonialism, but nobody can deny that Japan reacted to White suprematism.
'I haven't heard any anti-Japanese sentiments from anybody I've known from the Philippines, Thailand, or Malaysia. In fact, some Phillipinas I know said their people like Japan. We know that many Chinese and Koreans don't like Japan. (A Chinese friend said that most Chinese aren't really like that though.) Is there a lot of strong anti-Japan sentiment in Asian countries other than China and the Korea's?'
I've spent quite a lot of time in China and currently work in Japan. There seems to be a lot of 'we don't like them because they don't like us' in China and Japan but I've heard some really ugly things in both countries which go much further than this. Not surprisingly, those who are involved in business between the countries tend not to have such animosity and the vicious stuff tends to come from those who have never set foot in the other country and wouldn't want to. Unfortunately, we are talking about two countries who tend to swallow what the media tells them more than most.
Japan would have been invaded by the west like other asian countries, it was matter of time. The west could not accept Japan replacing the west colonies in asia. That's why the west is particularly harsh on Japan but not on Germany or Italy.
@Tina Do you think other western countries wouldn't have been harsh on Germany if they had denied the holocaust or muddied the waters because Germans are Europeans?
An extraordinary article. Very well written. Germany has a museum where people can fully understand what monsters the Nazis were - on the site on their former headquarters no less. http://www.topographie.de/en/ In Japan on the other hand we have the Yushukan museum - right next to the shrine which remembers 14 war criminals (and were politicians go to "pray for peace") which teaches nothing of Japan's atrocities. And the way Japan teaches history, it's citizens might as well live in a parallel universe
Honestly I often disagree with you, but this post is sadly true. Some people say that the atomic bombs on Japan were necessary to end WWII. Adopting the same logic, we can say that Japanese colonialism was "necessary" for the West ending its savage imperialist politics that lasted for centuries in all the 5 continents. If Japan had been invaded from a Western power, and this was actually its destiny if it hadn't reacted becoming a colonial power itself, we would live still in the same kind of White suprematist world. It was necessary that one country that wasn't "White", showed that it was able to have the same strengh as a "White country". :(
Maybe just in JT. In my own experience, when I was walking outside Melbourne Central with a male friend, he was trying to persuade me to watch movie with him about Hitler. I don't like political movies and war movies so I rejected. So he told me about the story and I found that Hitler was very smart, so I said "wow, Hitler were good". Suddenly a woman grabbed my shirt and looked like want to punch me. I was surprised but then I realised I didn't supposed to say that. So I asked for apologise and her companion was also persuade her to release me. At least when I told my friend about Japanese Emperor from JT news, nobody did anything to me.
If you look at the history after end of WWII, Japan spent basically from 1950's through mid 1990s under the same conservative LDP government. There was no change in thought or attitude. At best, the Japanese government was able to buy off the Chinese and Koreans, providing loans and grants while those governments kept nationalistic sentiments tamped down. When the LDP hold was toppled in the 1990s, the coalition government was so weak that even though it began reconciliation with a formal apology, it couldn't make much progress before the LDP came back to power one year later. Japan needed a strong center-left party to lead the way. Unfortunately, Murayama and the Japanese Social Democrats were simply too weak. Japan's delay in the process has only made it more difficult for any real reconciliation. Had they done it back when Japan was at its peak, Chinese and Korean nationalism were somewhat under control and Japan had bought some goodwill through economic aid, they might have gotten their message across more smoothly. Instead, now you have Japan in a weak position, China and Korea ascendant, and both those nations experiencing near-rabid nationalistic sentiments, it'll be much harder for all involved to come together.
So that makes it ok, that Japan did what it did, to prove your theory?
So according to you, it was okay that Japan became another Western Asian colony? Because this was its fate, don't pretend it could be different. I guess you know how Perry opened the country, uh? You are basically saying that until colonialism was a Western business only, it was ok. When a not-white country did the same, it was wrong.
My dear friend, imperialism is HORRIBLE, but Japan wasn't the country that invented it.
Another article from Korea..
True, but unlike Japan western countries teach what they did, warts and all, to their students. I learnt all about Australia's excesses against the Aborigines throughout most of my education. How many people in Japan can say they know what happened at Nanking, Unit 731, POW camps? That link I put up earlier is for the former Gestapo hq in Berlin, where you can go and learn about the monsters. Where can you find such a place in Japan? I rest my case
I'm not speaking about moral, now. I'm speaking about how hystory worked. Western powers would have continued always in the same way, if the things weren't went how they went.
In German, if you deny Holocaust, you are considered a criminal and will get sent to prison.
In Japan,if you deny Nanking Massacre, you are consider hero.
Yeah, there's a huge difference between those two. Japan need to learn from the German.
We have to remember what made peace possible, and we need to nurture what we did right, rather than repeat past mistakes, which caused great harms, injustices and discriminations throughout the world. Willy Brandt, was in his philosophical reasoning, was the right man in the right place at the right time. His politics, laid one of the most important foundation stones, which allowed the "Federal Republic of Germany" and the "Democratic Republic Of Germany" to reunite into one Germany, after the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. His reasoning followed an old reality, that balance had to be established and maintained for peace to become a lasting reality. The Chancellor who kneeled in front a monuments for the victims of the Fascist regime, and this with great remorse for what his fellow country men had done. He who him self deserted and joined the Swedish army to fight against the NAZI regime of his time, made all the difference of post war Germany. Today we need another icon such as him to generate peace, nurture another "Ost Politik," of sort. Only today it has to be a global reasoning. And this before we let another disaster escalate into a global nightmare. Justice, Equality, Fraternity, Liberty, unity and Accountability has well as Duty have to become our global culture and philosophy if we want to be able to master our troubles and fix those before they get out of control. The world and especially Germany as well as Japan have to remember Willy Brandt his reasoning and return towards such a philosophy. We cannot risk another disaster, for it will destroy all of mankind and maybe even our planet. We are one Humanity living on one Planet with finite resources. There is only one way forward, any other option may destroy us all.
Most people in SEA are more pro Japan. However, that is still no excuse for the way Japan handle their WW2 issues.
I believe Singapore is also quite pro Japan but even then, Singapore PM said:
The way Japan handle their WW2 issues is not admirable. Japan should learn from Germany.
Ah, so you're saying Japan liberated Asia? I wonder how many in China and South Korea would agree with you. Japan has a lot to learn from Germany's remorse
Japan NEVER liberated Asia. Not only in China and south Korea, but here in SEA, no one think Japan liberated Asia.
Your country (made now by Europeans) killed all the natives. Even if you think to know everything without any bias, how Australia is acting, now? I see it like a very closed country to immigration, for example. Anyway, you should understand what this user said:
Maybe you don't understand it because you don't know it, so I wonder how much unbiased is what you learned. In Italy we know almost nothing about Italian war crimes. Read this, please: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Legacy
I'm Italian. I want to know the truth about what my country did.
Alex80: "I'm not speaking about moral, now. I'm speaking about how hystory worked. Western powers would have continued always in the same way, if the things weren't went how they went."
Wow, so you're saying that if things had been different, they'd be different. Brilliant! Likewise, if Japan had acted differently and genuinely apologized and showed remorse like Germany, their relationships with neighbours would be different. But guess what, they did not. They took the low road of denial and claim to be the victims. Well, they made their bed, they can lie in it until they take an objective look and see that the bed's a mess and needs to be remade. That can easily be done with the help of neighbours if Japan drops its pride and denial and only asks.
interesting article. i will just add that maybe japan need to open channels for voices of its victims to prop-up and be heard, but not to muster its might and crushing them to the most saddened state, as had been the case so far, with the so-called comfort-women issue and others.
the superior-complex mindset of (most) Japanese is very real as that also seems to be ingrained in the education system, from primary up to university level. they never learn the bad things of their ancestors or allowed to dig deeper into that history, they are only on the surface, the good-things about it. and the result of the education system gave the kind of leadership and the social mindset that is quite unbalanced and contrary to historical facts.
maybe japan need to listen more to other voices and causes for the war, not to judge them on the spot. there is a saying that 'when you judge people, you have no time to love them.' and money that was paid is not going to help you in your cause, money is also another form of judging people, that somehow they are poor, and you are superior. words and actions matters.
I think there is a good reason why there is a dedicated item in English wiki as uyoku dantai. Japanese right wing often falls in the category of extreme right wing, equivalent to neo-nazi in the majority of English-speaking world. Just in case some people are interested in, along with that, just read Nippon Kaigi in wiki, too. This sounds crazy but Abe is a "special adviser" in this uyoku propaganda/brainwashing machine. The situation in Japan is that bad.
@Uwe Paschen Excellent post. A chapter on Willy Brandt wouldn't go amiss in every school history textbook in every country.
Thanks for agreeing
Ah, that's called deflecting. And Australia's current immigration policies have nothing to do with Japan's (lack of) ww2 remorse.
That's a problem with your education system then, nothing to do with the topic.
No. Japanese intentions were to protect itself and create an Empire in Western style. You are manipulating my words. The outcome of Japanese imperialism has been decolonization of Asia, after the war. This doesn't mean Japan wanted to liberate Asia. Learn the difference.
Well said. I believe a start will be for each culture to admit that its own cultural myths, the myths that unite them as people and separate them from others, are just that - myths. When biology can be seen to provide better descriptions of humans than cultural myths, I think we will be able to make progress.
Japan learned to colonize like Westerners did for hundreds of years through the teaching of Westerners. Westerners got upset when the Japanese started to colonize because they thought they were racially inferior.
Yubaru and others got it right up above. How do you know which ones the others are? Look at their thumbs down.
So many people here make statements and have no facts or make them up, but ignorance is blissful. Due to ignorance, bombs bigger than the first two will most definitely be dropped again unfortunately.
I cringe when I see the President of the united states planting a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier knowingly aware that there are more than a few unlike at Yasakune shrine...who should not be honored due to their war crimes. More like thousands.
Don't you think that the fact that Italy is NEVER included in these articles is already a sign that Western media are whitewashed in the first place? If you don't know it, ITALY WAS AN AXIS POWERS LIKE GERMANY AND JAPAN. But we were saints, according to mainstream media! Weird!
Comments here are completely different from comments posted on facebook. Why?
So Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, and declares war after the fact, they invade countries around Asia, burning, raping, and pillaging as they go. Rather than put their new territories to work producing food and goods, they loot everything of value, and send it back to Japan. They dismantle farms, industry, and infrastructure, and use all of this to create arms, military railroads, and airfields. They enslave hundreds of thousands, whom they starve, beat, and let die of disease. The only businesses they open around Asia are brothels and opium dens, and by 1943, the locals in these occupied territories begin working with the Allies to through the Japanese out.
And wonderful Japan takes such great care of their slaves and prisoners that 27% of the POWs in their captivity die, and 12% of the civilians they intern die. Only 4% of Allied POWs in German camps died, and only 1% of Axis (yes, Japan was part of the Axis) POWs held in Allied camps died. 100,000 human beings died as slaves building Japan's Thailand-Burma railroad.
Then we have Japan developing chemical and biological weapons, and using them on 11 civilian cities in China, killing up to 90,000 innocent people. We have Japan's infamous Unit 731, which eclipses Nazi Germany for the barbarity of the acts committed there.
How is this for harsh? In Germany the local German people, men women, were forced to go to the concentration camps, and carry with their bare hands the dead and decomposing bodies of the victims who died there, and bury them properly. This was filmed, you can see these films on Youtube, they are often shown in Germany. The German people were forced to walk through these camps, look at the rotting bodies, the burnt bones in the crematory ovens, and see exactly what their government had done.
The Japanese citizens were not forced to go to the camps in Thailand, Singapore, Malaya, Burma, Korea, China, and a hundred other places to look at the bones of the hundreds of thousands of people they, by extension of the government who represented them, killed.
Tina, have a look at this photo, it was taken by two Japanese soldiers in China. Please give me an excuse for why the soldiers did this, and the country whom they represented.
Well, I think this article is somewhat accurate, but it also leaves out quite a bit;
First, only China and SKorea incorporate their anti-Japan efforts as part of their official national strategy - and both, irrespective of what they say, do so for purely political reasons. For China, it serves to distract the public from their lack of basic human rights and endemic government-sanctioned corruption. For SKorea, it’s a go-to, no risk vote getter – one that no politician, likely involved in their own scandals, has yet been able to resist.
The example of Indonesia was accurate, but incomplete – they author could have easily said Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, Australia and several other southwest Asian countries – all have essentially moved on from their time as a WW II foe or colony of Japan. Most currently enjoy good, if not very good relations with Japan, and do not bring up Japanese barbarism during the war as part of their official diplomacy. Some, Australia and the RP, are ready for Japan to increase their military role in the region.
The author overlooks several unique Oriental cultural distinctions that make a comparison with Europe more difficult; specifically how Orientals define and view an “apology” and the impact of “shame” and “face”. As most folks now, an apology carries much more significance and weight in the Orient – and implies a much greater degree of guilt and shame. As such, the offended party is always looking for an apology and the offender is usually loath to offer one. Given the seriousness of this issue, one would think these concepts wouldn’t matter – but they do……
Lastly cultural identity and ethnocentrism. While it’s true that Germans have at times been considered arrogant to Eastern and Southern Europeans, the views on “who is superior” between China, Japan and the Koreas tend to be even larger. While Japanese admire ancient Chinese culture and have grudging respect for SKorea as an industrial competitor, on average, they have very low personal views of those country’s citizens. I won’t delve in to all the usual stereotypes, if you’ve been here in Japan, you’ve heard them. On the other hand, the Chinese and SKoreans, spurred by their government and media, have these same, if not even more negative views about the Japanese.
Oh really? Then why were diplomatic agreements signed with Japan? The Anglo-Japanese treaty of 1902 for example. I will allow that the treaty of Versailles was unfavourable towards Japan, and led in part to Japan's later militarism. But that doesn't excuse how Japan invaded Manchuria, or what happened at Nanking. If Japan had conducted itself differently, perhaps it wouldn't have found itself hit with all those economic embargoes before ww2. The fact of the matter is Japan embraced colonialism at a time when other nations were moving away from it. And except for perhaps some people in Indonesia, other Asian countries do not regard Japan as their "liberator".
The revisionist museum next door does NOT help
Yet Italy did not exterminate people to the same extent as Germany and Japan. The Italian people did not support their government's military ambitions as the Germans and Japanese did, most Italians disagreed with the war, and Italian soldiers deserted their posts, or surrendered without a fight. And you also don't realise that after Italy surrendered, Italy helped the Allies against Germany, while in Japan and it's conquered territories, Italian civilians and Italian soldiers ended up being imprisoned by the Japanese along with their Allied POWs.
'If you don't know it, ITALY WAS AN AXIS POWERS LIKE GERMANY AND JAPAN. But we were saints, according to mainstream media! Weird!'
Which mainstream media would that be? I've read about atrocities like the use of poison gas in Abyssinia. Mussolini's fascist regime is hardly remembered fondly but perhaps his regime was just a minor league scumbag compared to the real big hitters in Germany and Japan. That does tend to happen. How many people know about or remember the foul Ustase outside the Balkans - people whose brutality reputedly made the SS wince?
I don't wonder if ordinary Japanese feel that it's unfair that, while the war was, fundamentally, among colonialist countries fighting each other for their own merits, all the sins seem to be pushed onto the loser side. However, look at the current situation of Japan. There must be some middle-grounds than these nation-divided "historical" viewpoints, which are more or less totalitarian, or nation-based political utilitarian.
Japanese abused of the locals, raped and committed all the barbaric acts that I will never deny, specially in China and Philippines, AND also developed some of its colonies, like Korea and Taiwan. Again, this doesn't mean its imperialism was right, but you are omitting some facts just for your own convenience.
Exactly how Western media always speak only about Japan and Germany, without including Italy. They never compare Japan to Italy, since they covered my country's war crimes because of cold war. It's fun how we are speaking about WWII and an Australian guy tells me that Italy's case is off topic, when Italy was one of the three main Axis Powers, Italy invented fascism, Hitler fell in love with Italian fascism and copied the model. This shows how "unbiased" his education has been.
This much is true. (Italy was very brutal in Ethiopia though) Italy had also fought on the allied side in the first world war, rendering their antagonistic actions in ww2 short-lived in most peoples' minds. Germany, as we have seen - has thoroughly atoned. And Japan.........not yet
This development you mention in Korea and Taiwan was military in nature, mainly infrastructure for the transport of military supplies and soldiers in preparation for more conquest. I was shown many of these projects when I was in the Army, one of my friends was a Colonel in the Engineers, and he described how the Japanese had built these structures, and for what reasons.
Funny that you should call Taiwan and Korea colonies of Japan. If you were to say such a thing in Korea or Taiwan you would be lucky to get out in one piece.
See how you are a victim of whitewash? Italy adopted racial laws like Germany, so our government shared the responsabilities for holocaust as well.
Again, brainwashed! Most of Italian people supported Mussolini until war was going well, only when it appeared clear that we are losing the war, a solid movement of resistance was born. Italian army was simply NOT READY for war, weak, ill equipped, for this we started to lose many times. This is the main reason, you have been really brainwashed uh?
After the armistice just because we saw the Axis powers were losing the war.
Another brainwashed guy...the Balkans were Commy, this is why our war crimes against them are not considered. This is disgusting. How much hypocrisy!
Sangetsu, you have never been to Taiwan. Visit there and ask people about what your friend said. And google yoichi hatta. Stop making a story
Fully aware of how fascism came about. Its symbol, the fasces, was modelled one the sticks carried by the lictors in Ancient Rome.
Yes, but they weren't as...........enthusiastic about it. And as mentioned, Italy had previously fought in WW1 with the allies, so antagonistic feelings were shorter lived. There are simpler fewer cases of where Italians committed atrocities against allied troops (like the SS) or liquidated populations of people (Ethiopia excepted) Germany had more to be forgiven for, and Japan still has more to be forgiven for.
'How many people know about or remember the foul Ustase outside the Balkans - people whose brutality reputedly made the SS wince?
Another brainwashed guy...the Balkans were Commy, this is why our war crimes against them are not considered. This is disgusting. How much hypocrisy!'
I consider them. Does that make me brainwashed? Who exactly isn't considering them? Who's being hypocritical? Thank you for sharing your obviously superior knowledge of history to the ignorant masses here. Can you now deal with the point of why Japan is seen as being unable or unwilling to deal with its past? Your avoidance of this question is getting bizarre and a bit suspicious.
Atoned is religious words for those who think themselves as the right side but, after killing each other, who would be such a saint? At least, at our adulthood, we know we are not perfect. Then, what these imperfect beings should do would be the next question.
And which county has the most troops deployed all over the world now? Somethings have never changed. If we talk about moral, we should stick to it, rather than letting it intervened by nationalism.
This thread is not about Italy. I'm sure their are plenty of other online forums for bashing Italy if you wish to do so. This thread is about Germany's acceptance of what it did, and Japan's avoidance
When? When did the West ever try to make a land grab for Japan? The truth is, the western countries were never interested in Japan. No natural resources, you see.
Japan's militarization was strictly for offensive, not defense, reasons.
But strategically very interesting. So why the US forced Japan to open itself if it wasn't interesting someway? uh?
AstoBoy: "Smithinjapan, what do you think of Japan? Still living?"
First: did you mean your name to be "Astroboy"? Next: I think Japan's great, for the most part. Relatively safe, easily to live and get around, great food, good people. Next: "Still living"? I didn't know rocks could be a living entity, but as a nation of people, yes Japan is still alive and quite well. Or did you mean, as I think you did, "Are you still living here", which is often used by right-wingers to imply that if you live here you can pay taxes and praise the nation but if you want to criticize (Japanese) ignorance you have to shut up or get out. Right? Whether or not that's the case, yes, I am still living here, and yes, I am still entitled to my opinion and to pointing out the facts and calling foul when something is, indeed, foul. I'm sorry (and not in the true sense) for those who think that if you live somewhere you can only thank them for it, regardless of what the nation says or does, but that kind of thinking is why Japan is under scrutiny and cannot be taken seriously if and when they 'apologize' for something in history (and then turn around and deny it).
Any other questions?
And this is what the Japanese did to Chinese people they found in the other parts of Asia which they conquered. The death rate among Allied POWs was high, the death rate among Chinese prisoners? There is no way to tell, but the Johore Causeway to Singapore was lined with poles topped with the decapitated heads of Chinese, and you could find these at the city gates in Kuala Lumpur or Manila. Also, any Chinese who had a tattoo was killed without ceremony. If you want to know why China still has so much animosity toward Japan, now you do.
Are you serious? This comment
is mine, not by Jimizo. I implied he disilkes the Communists, not that he likes them, because of the fact he ignored my first comment in this topic that is the answer to the main question about why Japan and Germany situations are different, and also because he spoke about the brutality of Balkans people to minimize the fact the Allies ignored Italian war crimes against them.
You are the one who always tries to change topic, attacking me saying I'm off topic or that I'm bashing Americans and South Koreans. I really don't know why you speak always about South KoreanYou are embarrassing yourself.
While you are at it, can you give us the figure on how many IJA soldiers were denied of surrendering and was slaughtered by the allies? Take no prisoners was quite literal in those days.
There wasn't a single nation in the SEA except for Thailand at the time, only Western colonies.
Most of the Jewish concentration camps were located outside of Germany especially the ones they used for gasing.
What kind of camps? If you are talking about POW camps, there were many on Japan mainland. Thailand was part of the Axis countries and Korea was part of Japan during the war. Many of Malayians came to Japan as exchange students to revolt against their oppressors during he war.
'I consider them.
No, you tried to minimize speaking about their brutality'
What? I said their brutality made the SS wince. Does that sound to you like I am minimizing their brutality? These people were as foul as anything in WW2, it's just that the death count was massively overshadowed by Germany and Japan.
'Who exactly isn't considering them?
You and the others like you.'
It was me who raised the subject of the Ustase but you claim I don't consider them? Why would I raise the subject unless I at least gave them a passing thought? One of the reasons I raised this point was that minor league murderers ( in terms of death count, not brutality ) get forgotten in the shadow of the likes of Germany and Japan. I considered them and that's why I raised the point. Just bizarre.
Alex80: "is mine, not by Jimizo."
yes, I know. That was clear in my putting "Alex80:" and then quoting you at the beginning of the comment. Try reading.
"I implied he disilkes the Communists, not that he likes them, "
And my whole point, and what I clearly stated, was that you are unable to be objective because you automatically imply someone likes or dislikes someone when they merely point out the facts. I said it does not matter and has no bearing, and cannot be implied, whether they like OR dislike the person/people/group they are talking about when mentioning facts.
"I really don't know why you speak always about South KoreanYou are embarrassing yourself."
yeah... I'M embarrassing myself! haha. You're the one on a thread about how Germany is perceived vs. how Japan is perceived 70 years down the road demanding everyone discuss Italy, bud.
You don't seem to know even why Tokugawa shogunate reign ended with its sakoku policy, which only monopolized international trade with Holland at the time Perry came to Japan and threat it with Armstrong guns, which have much better range than Japanese ones. After that, quite much of Japanese natural resources went into other nations. In fact, among them, copper had high demands in USA during the initial years of electricity distribution infrastructure.
I've gotten an impression that I'm seeing a concrete example of the limitation of nation-favored "historical" view...
You are minimizing the brutality of Italian war crimes against Balkan people this way! Your opinion about Balkans people's brutality is OFF TOPIC and also stupid. Their brutality made the SS wince? Really? SS were saints? This is your comment:
Japan already apologized a zillion times. Germany did once. I think Germany needs to catch up, as they do not seem very sincere to me. They still want and think they are superior in Europe. What a shame. They could much more go to war again over the Japanese.
I know many JEWS, Poles, Russians, AMERICANS etc..and they have NO PRAISE for NAZI GERMANY, with or without any apologies from their government.
Silly comparison. Germany is loaded with neo-Nazi's and the government restricts freedom of speech in the form of a Nazi salute or holocaust-denial. Forcing silence of views, even evil views, is hypocrisy and creates a false image of the country... which others laud. On the other hand, China and Korea disliked Japan before the war and still do... just as Japan had contempt for its Asian neighbors and continues to. But as for the war, Japan has apologized and been remorseful for too long. Revisit the 1950's-60's. Perfect, no. Progress, yes. And regress... Ningen no Joken could not be released today. But the complainers today have nothing to do with that anymore. Pure domestic politics... Like China, a totalitarian state destroying its own people to benefit a few politically connected ever-drums-up anti-Japanese sentiment to distract the public from the grim reality of the CCP raping the country and its people of everything while the West is happy to make a short-term profit off of the sham.
I remember Pew Global reports on how countries viewed other nations. For much of the last 10-15 years, Japanese viewed China in a generally positive light, even though Chinese people viewed Japan in a generally negative light. But over time that changed so that Japanese saw China negatively. I think this was due to the increased obsession in China with the war and using it to paint Japan negatively, as well as the riots that damaged Japanese businesses, "no Japs" signs, etc.
I do agree that Japan could do far more to teach the atrocities of the war and not sweep them under the carpet. But I do think that China and South Korea, being the main countries in Asia that still hold a grudge against Japan, need to do more to reach out to Japan and ditch the practice of using the war/occupation as a means of boosting popular support back home. Yasukuni is a red-herring, because both countries know that it can't be disestablished. They also probably know, in their heart of hearts, it's unreasonable to demand politicians not go there when the war criminals there make a tiny proportion of the number of souls enshrined there.
At the moment in my view China and South Korea have a list of vague things they want Japan to do to "prove" it's sorry. They keep it vague because they're not really sure if they want to let Japan fulfil those criteria and therefore get off the hook re war guilt.
And denied a zillion times. We are sorry, no we're not. We're sorry. Why? We did nothing wrong. Japan could take a few pages from Germany's book about the meaning of true remorse. A leader of Germany knelt at the memorial to the Warsaw ghetto. When has a leader of Japan ever knelt at Nanking, or the site of the "death" railway in Thailand, or Changi prison in Singapore - or Darwin in Australia (which was flattened by Japan's airforce) Japan is the student - rather than the teacher - when it comes to Germany and showing remorse.
Let's face it, even if every person in Japan apologised and bowed down to do so, China and SK would still say it's not enough. As far as those two countries are concerned they will never accept any apology no matter how heartfelt and sincere. They WANT Japan to be a target for their ire... it helps to distract their populations from troubles at home.
Yes, we all know that Imperial Japan in the first half of the 20th century was a brutal regime, but this isn't Imperial Japan any more, and hasn't been for 70 years. They are demanding an apology from a regime that doesn't exist. Likewise Germany - the people of Germany today have no reason for remorse - they had no part in what happened in WW2.
All of this blaming and shaming... terrible. You don't hear me banging on about my great uncle who worked on the Burma railway as a POW, do you? I don't recall him telling me that he wanted an apology. Same with a great uncle who was captured at Dunkirk... he was treated badly, but didn't bang on about wanting an apology all the time.
And many were located in Germany, right?
And it was Japan which drew first blood. American soldiers knew all about the Bataan death march, the starvation and beatings which their fellows had endured under the Japanese. The 27% death figure of allied troops is rather low because it doesn't include those, who, like you say about the IJA, we're not allowed to surrender. Like the British infantry company which surrendered in Malaya, who were lined up on the road, machine-gunned, burnt with petrol, and then driven over by Japanese trucks. Acts like these seemed inhuman to American and allied soldiers, so the Japanese were no longer deemed to be human, and were treated accordingly.
But in the end, there would have been no deaths, no slavery, no atrocities if Japan had not started the war. Since it was Japan which started the war, Japan is responsible for every death, every rape, and every atrocity committed by either side. Had Japan not started the war, millions of lives would have been spared, young Japanese and American men could have lived peaceful lives, raised famIlies, and enjoyed their time on the world. But they were not so lucky, Japan decided that it wanted an empire, at a time when empires were already in decline. Japan was stupid enough to attack the world's most powerful countries, and unable to foresee the obvious result. Japan robbed millions of their lives, and, amazingly enough, there are morons here who think that this was justified.
Because the next day some bright politician in Japan goes out an denies the apology. So yes, they will still say it's not enough until you fix that.
Japan is facilitating this by their denials and revisionism.
True, but history still isn't being taught correctly.
Nonetheless, those who ignore history are "doomed to repeat it". German people today had no part in WW2, but they still learn their history so the Nazis will never return.
Bull for you then. All people need is honest remorse from Japan, and proper history in its books.
So again, Germany is lightyears ahead of Japan regarding remorse
”Comparative study of history textbooks of Japan, America, China, Korea and Taiwan, conducted by Stanford University”
”The Japanese history textbooks for high schools have gained a bad reputation in the foreign mass media”
”The study of "Divided Memories and Reconciliation" at APARC disclosed the fact that such criticism over Japanese history textbooks was incorrect. ”
”They don't glorify the war, emphasize the importance of the military, or describe acts of heroism on the battlefield. ”
”What the Japanese history textbooks signify is an implicit lesson. They tell us that the expansion of militarism is stupid and war entails enormous cost to the public. ”
”The Japanese Education Ministry guidelines lay weight on the development of friendly cooperative relations with neighboring countries and the need for peace and stability in Asia and the rest of the world.”
”In contrast, most of the East Asian countries claim in their guidelines of school textbooks that the history textbook should enhance the people's ethnic self-esteem and national identity (a sense of belonging).”
"he Korean history textbook doesn't mention the main events"
" it focuses entirely on the Korean's resistance movement against Japan's colonial administration or their cultural development in literature. In other words Korean's history textbook is a story of the ethnic strife's process for liberation."
"It is probably the Chinese history textbook that describes the war in the most patriotic way. "
"It is probably the Chinese history textbook that describes the war in the most patriotic way. It is filled with descriptions of heroic military operations, and even suggests that it was China, chiefly the Communist Party of China, that ultimately defeated Japan. "
@AstoBoy Here's the blog you're quoting from, which uses a translation from Yomiuri. Trustworthy sources? http://blog.goo.ne.jp/a3513866z/e/db9751f209fc71f4445e1cf5d635c271
@AstoBoy My apologies. Thank you.
So Japanese - you can be quiet - For Russian people - Germany is NOT any type of "paragon"
The same problems that exist between China and Japan exist between Russia and Germany.
German people just ignore them.
For lot of Russian German = Nazi. Even 7 decades after WW II
Almost the same situation as in Far East.
Like in times of III th Reich....
This is excellent astroboy. Thanks
ThunderBird2: "Let's face it, even if every person in Japan apologised and bowed down to do so, China and SK would still say it's not enough."
Always the hypotheticals from the stance of someone who would NEVER do what he or she says 'if' about. You're wrong, by the way. If every person in Japan apologized China and SK would stop, but of course there is no way in hell even a FRACTION of the Japanese people would apologize, so it's a moot point except to say you are attempting to take the high road with hypotheticals that would never happen, when in reality you are taking the low-road by inadvertently pointing out just that; they would NEVER happen. So, good on you!
AstoBoy: Quoting right-wing sources isn't helping to back up your: "Japan good. China ba-a-a-a-ad!" rants.
The reason why I posted the source and the link was to reply to "Quoting right-wing sources" And when did I argue ""Japan good. China ba-a-a-a-ad!""? Read my comments from the beginning. I've never said such a thing. Don't jump to a conclusion.
Like others I agree that any further Apologizing to China or South Korea will fall on "Deaf Ears", even though they say they want apologies. I think they just want Japan to continue to feel guilty and bringing up the issue of apologizing is their way of doing that.
So let's compare Japan and Germany during the WW II
Why not. Just compare. By the way Italy by Mussolini was almost NORMAL state. Almost normal state participating in aggressive war.
But anyway Japan took only place number 2 in hit-parade. Yeh - it was aggressive, cruel regime murdering millions of civilians on occupied territories. But Japanese Empire NEVER planned totally exterminate Korean or Chinese people.
And never created "scientific" theories to explain such slaughter like Germans did in East Europe...
Japanese offer conquered nations lowest level in majestic pyramid of Rising Sun Empire
It's bad but Germans gently offered Zyklon-B in gas -chambers...
The idea that we cannot find any evidence "because Japan burnt it all" is just one of the memes the propagandists are trying to keep alive.
It's not actually true. There's no evidence because most of the exaggeration just did not happen or exist.
It's funny because what the people at the National Archives say is,
"It's not that the archives do not exist, it's that no one uses them".
"Good Germany, Bad Japan" is just another one of Beijing's tiresome cheap propaganda spin.
They have been properly apologized too, and the proportion of actually "sex slavery" was small in comparison to plain and simple prostitution.
If you can come up with a reliable estimate of the proportion of "sex slaves" versus camp followers and prostitutes, then it might be helpful but if you are going to claim, as many do, it was 100% --- then your credibility will be zero.
The whole problem is because of the U.S. solution, which was basically a means for America to use Japan as a tool in Asia to boost their own economy. And as a result japan got 50 years as the 2nd largest economy!!!! Not much of a punishment really is it. As a result of effectively benefiting for the past 50 years Japan really can't see any reason to truly feel sorrow for its war history! In contrast, China suffered 50 years of poverty at the hands of communism! So much for winning wars! Ultimately japan has simply continued feeling "superior" to the rest of Asia and the entire world except for America since the recovery of its economy! Germany of course suffered the division of its country by the Berlin Wall for decades! So, to be honest I see japan as an unruly child that still hasn't been taught a lesson for its bad behaviour! Maybe that will come from a war with China in the future as America leaves the region. Who knows!
One important punishment after the war should have been to hang Hirohito and put an end to the royal throne in japan. That would definitely have made japan realise they had done something wrong. 5 years of occupation was far too short. It should have lasted at least a decade or 2 and the British should definitely have been involved, and perhaps the country should have been divided into 2 halfs under the mandate of each. Instead 20 years later Japan was celebrating hosting the Olympics, having the worlds 2nd greatest economy in the world, spoilt people with more money than they could ever have imagined, and being the master of Asia was again! Just in a different way! Pretty simple to see why japan doesn't feel any need to appologize really!
If you look at the world history in a bigger picture where the west nations are colonizing the rest and coming to Japan, what you call bad behaviour is only the west's perspective.
It is really rdiculous.
Never mind "feeling superior".
Is the wealthy, technology quality of life in Japan etc superior or not?
It's not perfect but, objectively, I would say it has been superior for the last 70 years.
I think your construction is biased to the point of just being more of the typical racial chauvinism we see on these pages.
The only thing I would agree with it is is a shame Japan was left for the USA to mould. I would have preferred a French or Dutch influence.
The USA has made the worst possible job of being "Asia's police man".
Global economics! That's why the west came to Japan, the result? Pearl harbour! Japan just didn't get economics back then! 70 years later and Japan is desperate to be a part of Global economics, as is every country.
Colonisation and wars were an important part of human development. but now we live in an age where we don't agree with wars and presidents go to court over them! Western colonisation is too far back in history for it to effect people so much now. Many people from WWII still remember its horrors and still suffer from those memories.
Doctor X, What suffer did you experience yourself specifically? In case you are Korean, what had you been doing before Japan-chino war (Nisshin war) I'm curious. Aren't there anything you should reflect on being just vassal state of China instead of blaming Japan now?.
Jennifer Lind is Assistant Professor of Government at Dartmouth College.......
The Perils of Apology...What Japan Shouldn't Learn From Germany....actually that's titles a tad misleading, interesting points to consider
The whole problem is because of the U.S. solution, which was basically a means for America to use Japan as a tool in Asia to boost their own economy. And as a result japan got 50 years as the 2nd largest economy!!!! Not much of a punishment really is it. As it result of effectively benefiting for the past 50 years Japan really can't see any reason to truly feel sorrow for its war history! In contrast, China suffered 50 years of poverty at the hands of communism! ultimately japan has simply continued feeling "superior" to the rest of Asia and the entire world except for America since the recovery of its economy! Germany of course suffered the division of its country by the Berlin Wall for decades! So, to be honest I see japan as an unruly child that still hasn't been taught a lesson for its bad behaviour! Maybe that will come from a war with China in the future as America leaves the region. Who knows!
One important punishment after the war should have been to hang Hirohito and put an end to the royal throne in japan. That would definitely have been japan realise they had done something wrong. 5 years of
Japan living in the kabuki world is true, but if Germans have learnt from history that massive economic burden in a deflationary world can lead to unstoppable vengeance, then why Germans treat Greeks as they do now?
Not hang him - without his intervention the war wouldn't have ended. They should've made him abdicate - that would've sent the right message to Japan without making him a martyr. Japan got off lightly in the postwar period. It's time for Abe to repay MacArthur's excessive generosity by giving a truly remorseful speech on August 15th
Christopher Glen, yes abdication would definitely have been a better option. Yes, let's hope hope Abe makes up for his mishaps by apologising for his previous taking-back-of-apologies!
If you don't even know the numbers then don't respond.You posting is basically something out of the movies. Try reading this thread instead;
The number of Jewish concentration camps was 1,200 in which the ones in Germany were all either labor camps or Collection point none of which were the notorious extermination camp which were all outside of Germany mainly in Poland.
Here are the names of the main camps;
Auschwitz-Birkenau Belzec Bergen-Belsen Chelmno Dachau Ebensee Flossenbürg Gross-Rosen Janowska Kaiserwald Majdanek Mauthausen-Gusen Natzweiler-Struthof Neuengamme Nordhausen (Dora-Mittelbau) Sachsenhausen (Oranienburg) Plaszow Ravensbrück Sobibor Stutthof Terezin (Theresienstadt) Treblinka Westerbork
Within those names only three are in Germany in which they were all in major industrial area. They used the Jews as manual labor there and the ones that became to weak were sent to extermination camps. To my understanding most Germans never knew about the extermination camps until the end of the war.
As for who started the war although popular beliefs states that the US was attacked by Japan on Dec.8th 1941, the US funded the Flying Tigers mercenaries in the China war before the faithful day so the US was fighting a proxy war with Japan before Pearl Harbor. Japan just took the war to US doorsteps.
tinawatanabe, no suffering. Basically this article is about the reasons why Germany has accepted its past but Japan hasn't. And it is a very important topic because it doesn't look like Europe will ever go to war again! Which is fantastic, no more death! However Asia is clearly at a point where history is pushing the region towards a possibble war. I don't like war, I don't like death. So we really need to understand why Japan won't get to grips with its past and instead is gearing up for war again as a result of it!
In my opinion, the advent of the Internet and forums like this along with countless others are prolonging the healing process. With the ability to easily and readily comment, commiserate and discuss, these forums, for good or for bad, seem to be stretching the shelf life of recent history. Or I could be totally wrong and WWII was always going to be an issue at this point in time regardless.
Good point Shumatsu Samurai.
It's a receipe for moving goal posts with this 'sincerity' card. On the other hand, by stating the specifics, they don't want Japan to simply reject them for if that happens, they have no option other than to accept it.
The difference in how German education and media treat the history of the nations actors and their deeds in WW2 and what Japan does is far greater than the spans of Pacific and Atlantic Oceans combined.
Germany does not engage in an official campaign to erase any mention of facts involving what happened in the War or why they nation entered into it like Japan is doing in successive waves of educational "updates." The intellectual dishonesty in official Japanese education policy is deplorable.
The Government is 100% complicit in whitewashing the past. It is not a question of shame which I assume is why this whitewashing is happening. It is a question of preserving the frank and stark truth about the barbarity of war itself and the responsibility that Japan (as a past belligerent) has to see to it, now as a first world nation, that something as globally terrible as what happened then is not perpetrated by other actors on the world stage today or in the future.
Good point Triring.
The German's official apology (Weizsäcker) is exactly that. He even called it a "day of liberation".
Unfortunately War is War, and no one wins. OK many atrocities have been commited in all Wars. The Japanese were not the only ones who have commited such things! It is time to move on and hopefully such things will never happen again. "maybe", but, we all know that will never happen!
Japan’s direct compensation payments both to war victims and their heirs have totaled only $1 billion. This contrasts remarkably with Germany’s record. The compensation figures from a decade ago, Germany’s payments to victims and their heirs had exceeded $70 billion. The contrast is all the more remarkable for the fact that Imperial Japan’s victims outnumbered those of the Nazis by at least three to one. The truth is that most of Japan’s victims, including millions in China, have not received a penny. And in the small minority of cases in which compensation has been paid, the sums have been laughable.
A some what disingenuous response sfjp330, and I suspect deliberate so from you.
Reparations were paid comparatively at 1950s rates.
Remember that at the time, the average wage in Korea was only something like $50 a year and other Asians nations were even lower.
A fair deal was struck and Asians nations were satisfied with the result. They jump started many Asian economies into the 20th C.
If the individuals have not received a penny, then they need to speak to their governments because that's who got the money and, as in the case of Korea, it was spent on national industries and infrastructure.
Japan actually wanted to pay individuals, the Korean government said no, and it was probably the right answer.
Unfortunately, it did not communicate what happened, and to what extent, until nearly 40 years later.
You have repeated this quite often on related articles so I'm wondering where you get this figure from. Secondly, why aren't you adding $23 billion(valued @ 1945) in overseas assets that Japan and her citizens relinquished pursuant to the Treaty?
Of course, there are extremists in every country. But the problem in Japan is that revisionists who deny all wartime wrongdoing have powerful champions in high places. In Germany, Holocaust deniers have no significant voice, and they remain on the fringes of society. But in Japan, those who deny the existence of the Nanking massacre often occupy leading positions in government, business and academia.
So you admit I'm right. Strategically inconvenient, actually, compared to Singapore or Hong Kong and a host of other locations in Asia.
For trade. Not for colonization. The west had no plans to colonize Japan. Europeans and Americans were hanging around in places like Dejima around for about 300 years eager to trade. But they never attempted to take over the country.
That whole revisionist narrative about Japan militarizing itself for defense is hogwash.
Many Chinese and Koreans, yes. The rest of the world has moved on.
JeffLee Why do you think Japan had Meiji Ishin? Japan already had been forced unfair treaty by the west, which was already colony state. Some poster above also mentioned about it. History looks different from the opposite position.
This is an excellent piece of 'whataboutery' - the use of largely irrelevant arguments about a separate issue to distract attention from the matter at hand.
Read Japanese history of those days. The Japanese government prevented from becoming a colony of one certain nation by establishing relationship with most all western Imperialist powers of those days putting it into a stalemate. In return the Meji government signed a very unfair diplomatic treaty Britain, France, Dutch, Russia, Germany and the US which was not normalized for 70 years when Britain, France and the US requested Japan to enter WW1 against Germany in return of normalization.
Certainly one big difference between Germany and Japan is the nature of the political ruling class. In one country you've got a bunch of hereditary politicians obsessed with upholding the "honor" of their dead forebears, many of whom served in the Japanese government during the 1930s and 1940s. In Germany it's hard to name even one prominent hereditary politician whose father or grandfather was as prominent a figure as Kishi Nobusuke (the grandfather of Abe Shinzo, and Minister of Munitions in Japan during World War II).
The children of Albert Speer (Minister of Armaments and War Production in Germany during World War II, essentially Kishi's counterpart in the Third Reich) are prominent individuals in various fields, but to my knowledge none of them have expressed any sort of fawning admiration for the man who sustained the Nazi war machine for 3-plus years. One daughter of his has flatly declared that she feels ashamed. Abe, meanwhile, worships his maternal grandfather.
Of course, much of the fault for this difference lies in the fact that US occupation authorities in Japan so quickly rehabilitated people like Abe's grandfather. By the 1950s, the truth is that Japanese politicians like Kishi who had so vigorously supported Japanese imperialism just 15 or so years earlier were viewed very positively by American leaders. This certainly wasn't the case with a guy like Speer, who unlike Kishi was actually put on trial, found guilty, and remained imprisoned until 1966.
Kishi Nobusuke during the war had nothing to do with the military being the Minister of Commerce. In fact his position was highjacked by the military to heighten production for the war effort.
You'll have better chance finding dirt around Nakasone although he was a very junior bureaucrat during the war.
Yes we are all fully aware of the brutality of the Nazis. The difference is Germany has atoned sincerely many times over - while Japan hasn't. Apologies which are soon refuted don't count!
Japan didn't run extermination camps either.
nigelboyAUG. 14, 2015 - 06:38AM JST You have repeated this quite often on related articles so I'm wondering where you get this figure from. Secondly, why aren't you adding $23 billion(valued @ 1945) in overseas assets that Japan and her citizens relinquished pursuant to the Treaty?
You still don't get it. That is still 66.6 percent of excessive victims, sad reality for Japan's treaty.
So what a difference between good article and excellent ? - Promotion !!!
Germany does not erase , Germany just write a new history.
So German films, newspaper articles or books about WW II not meet any understanding in Russia or Belorussia...
Why ?? Because Germans prefer to ignore what they done in East Europe. (After WW 2 - it became a part of East block)
So they prefer to forget.
And in Netherlands or France - nothing really terrible really happens during occupation.
Japan has a problem with Korea as a result of 40 years of occupation. It's a big problem but not a result of WW2
If Japan occupied Korea only for 5 years - it was a much more easy to forget for proud Koreans.
And as I said before - problems between Russia - Germany and China - Japan VERY similiar. Russian unlike Chinese&Koreans just not demonstrate it openly. But it is because Berlin was taken by Russian Army but Tokyo was not taken by Chinese&Koreans as a result of WW II.
By the way - as a result of conflict on Ukraine period of relative understanding between Moscow and Berlin ended.
And today relationships between Russia - Germany looks more and more like relationships between China - Japan - economical cooperation but total political misunderstanding.
Is it dangerous ?? Very !
So I really doubt that Japan can teach something from Germany about history education . ...
Show us just one official apology which was officially recanted.
The amalgamation of Japan and Korea was actually a good thing for the Korean people. Some of the old guard leadership did not care for it, as it removed their privileges, but for the people - and particularly the 40% of the population who were hereditary slaves - it was a very good thing.
It signalled the end of slavery, the doubling of life expectancy, the doubling of the population, a huge modernization and develop plan including mass education and healthcare.
The main problems with "Proud" Koreans is that their pride blinds them from the facts, and their government has deliberately miseducated them for decades.
What were the alternatives? Slaves under the Chineses, slaves under the Russians, cut up by the Europeans ... remember, it was progressive elements within the Korean elite who chose Japan.
Show us an official apology backed by the Diet.
"The amalgamation of Japan and Korea was actually a good thing for the Korean people."
...so says somebody who is probably not an ethnic Korean and almost definitely did not live through the 1910-45 period in Korea. It was just a matter of time before somebody here advanced the "Japan did a better job of governing Korea than Koreans did" line of argument in favor of Japanese rule there. This is pretty similar to arrogant white Englishmen arguing that British rule in India brought the benefits of "free" trade, parliamentary democracy, and railways to the subcontinent. There's a reason why nobody who is not a fool will dare to tell this to people in India today.
If you insistently argue that foreigners did a better job of governing some place better than the natives who have lived there since time immemorial, you will persuade virtually nobody. I'm not sure why defenders of Japanese imperialism have such a hard time understanding this. Perhaps because Japan itself has never been subjected to the humiliation of direct foreign rule (the 1945-52 occupation by the USA doesn't count).
It would depend on whether your family had Nobi or Yangban roots.
For all the reasons state and more, for the people of Korea it was a time of great improvement; double the population, double life expectancy. That is evidence of huge developmental advances.
And Japan did do a far better job of governing Korea - with the help of progressive Koreans - than the Yangban and old royalty did. They had successively run it into the ground to the point where it could not defend itself.
I think you need to study Korean history.
Historically, and to this day, I know a lot of Indians who thought exactly like that. Much of the infrastructure that Indian runs on, physical, political and legal, is still British.
And take England as a good example, it thrived under a succession of foreign rulers from the Romans through the Saxons to the Normans and so on. In fact, it's a great example of how successful a strategy having the most capable rule is.
Ability is far more important than racial purity.
Tina, this is quite untrue. Please learn the attitudes of any of 100 other countries. You show constant ignorance time and time again.
Interesting you asked, because Murayama's apology was never officially ratified http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMAPOLOGY.html Oops! Hence the position of the Japanese government that whenever Abe of Hashimoto deny Japan had sex slaves or committed aggression, they are expressing their "personal view".
English lesson for you;
verb (used with object)
to withdraw or disavow (a statement, opinion, etc.), especially formally; retract.
verb (used without object)to withdraw or disavow a statement, opinion, etc., especially formally
You can't recant something if it was never officially ratified.
Here's an English lesson for you: deflection; the act of causing something to change direction. A typical tactic of right-wingers who can't present logical arguments. Japan could learn from Germany's example. Perhaps Germany could offer courses in how to be a remorseful role-model for your region
I believe that is what you are doing right now. LoL
So, show me a link then. One mainstream website that says Japan is educating its people what happened in the war, as Germany has done. Show me a link which says that a Japanese Prime Minister knelt at the Nanking memorial in China. Show me a link where a Japanese Prime Minister visited the museum for the "death railway" in Thailand. Because whenever they get caught out, right-wingers always find ways to deflect and avoid the difficult questions. Good luck with that
Why in the world would Abe or any other Japanese PM will knee in front of a memorial commemorating a fabricated event stating 300,000 innocent civilians had been slaughtered?
There are no definable evidence to prove the numbers and there are no evidence that they were all civilians.
And before you come out with names like Harold John Timperley who wrote "WHAT WAR MEANS" reporting about Nanjing, I would like to tell you that he was an adviser to the ROC Propaganda office as well as being a reporter at the time.
It seems that Nanjing population at that time was 200,000, so their claim 300,000 is impossible.
Actually that figure is debatable since the size of the walled city was enough to hold 1,000,000. Having said that it is also debatable that the city was fully occupied with her citizens since in front of the city it was the main battle ground between KMT troops and IJA troops. The citizens knowing this in advance would have evacuated well before the battle started leaving the ones not able to make the trip. There is also the fact that a week after the seize a survey was held of how many inhabitants were left and they estimate that there were more than 200,000 people living.
In any case slaughtering 300,000 was not possible since there probably was not that many within the city during the time of thee seize in the first place.
Just further revisionist obfuscation. I never said there were 300,000 victims. But certainly the numbers weren't far off.
Because Japan conducted a war of aggression. In which it was on the losing side of history. No matter how Abe and others play with the textbooks that will not change. And because German leaders have shown true remorse at memorials in Auschwitz and Warsaw, for crimes just as bad or worse than Nanking. If they can do so, there is no reason Japanese leaders can't.
Further obfuscation. The exact numbers aren't important. Japan actually admitting there was a massacre IS.
How about an eyewitness Nazi, one of Japan's allies at the time? http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/01/the-nazi-leader-who-in-1937-became-the-oskar-schindler-of-china/251525/
Time to learn from Germany's superior example
PRC propaganda tactic as usual. There is a saying "The devil is in the details" since you can't really argue the amount you simply sweeps it away with a broad brush saying they were massacred and be done with it but sorry it doesn't work that way. First off there was a major battle in front of the city and the KMT troops fled the battle ground into the city taking off their uniform. IJA had to pursue and initiated a mop-up operation which is dangerous since the troops didn't know who were the enemies since they weren't wearing their uniform any more.
Any innocent bystander not knowing who is who can easily mistake a plain clothed KMT troop who fled into the city as a citizen of the city and IJA troops would be susceptible to this mistake as well. The only criteria in identifying a suspect is if they were male around the age of 16~40. Female hiding a suspect would be consider as an accomplice.
By the way executing a plain clothed soldier is accepted in the Geneva convention so I take the argument there either.
How does an eye-witness Nazi, the equivalent of facism - who wrote reports before the Peoples Republic of China even existed - equate to PRC propaganda?
Um, no. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-nanjing-massacre-japanese-killings-of-civilians-during-world-war-ii-new-figures-reveal-chinese-casualties/5462679 So you're making excuses for the IJA? How decent of you
If you read my earlier link, you'll see that anyone with calluses on their hands was assumed to be a soldier and pulled out of the safe zone for execution. There has yet to be a single leader from Japan to visit Nanking. So again, Germany wins hands-down over remorse
Nazi was aiding KMT at the time and John Rabe was selling equipment to KMT at the time.
That's a good point and why Rabe's account is not reliable. He was part of a group of Nazis looking to make a fortune out of supplier arms to the Chinese and his account was designed to garner support in Berlin.
It did not.
Of all the "reports" recorded, none were actually witnessed by the foreigners.
The "Global Research" article was constructed by "China Daily".
Would I believe a Chinese newspaper or the CPC's State Council Information Office?
Would I believe the testimony of old people who lived through the cultural revolution who just had a Communist Party worker turn up at their door or invalid bed?
So they weren't Japan's allies, but secretly Kuomintang supporters. An interesting, but flawed line of reasoning
It wasn't a secret at all here is a link at wiki.
Another point I like to present is the inflation in Chinese casualties during the war. Xi during his recent speech in Germany stated that there were 35 million Chinese casualties from the war by Japan. Funny because KMT at the end of the war calculated 3.2 million and within 1960 PRC history text book it was teaching 10 million.The steady increase can be seen in 1985 when it was revised to 21 million and finally in 95 the amount came to the now 35 million. Really?
So i guess having two atomic bombs dropped on major cities with mass casualties resulting isn't enough? You gotta make em kneel and grovel? I dunno about all of America, but most people ive come across still think Germany was the biggest agressor and committer of atrocities. Japan is more of an after thought. But when you say "japan", most people won't think "terrible war criminals". Theyll think "godzilla" and anime. I dont think anyone but the oldest generations of Americans and families of those at pearl harbor hold negative war time views of Japan. But then again, alot of us dont even know about their war time "crimes", so there is that.
Considering the fact that such article was written in SK, such credibility is 0. This is not the only reason why the article should not be respected. The fact that the article doesnt mention other countries that have good and strong relations with Japan makes this article a biased article.
No....simple teaching of facts in history classes. Stuff like we performed experiments on live human subjects for biological warfare, killed 200,000-300,000 people at Nanking, worked POWs to death, enslaved women. I could add more of course. Germany has atoned for what they did by apologising, compensating, and teaching. They have not denied, they have not whitewashed. Ask any Germany what they did, and they will tell you. Ask any Japanese off the street, and you might get a "I'm not sure". They remember the atom bombs of course, and expect us to remember those, but forget about the above. This is why Germany is trusted and respected by its neighbours while Japan is not
facts in history classes
Yeah sure, like the ones you have been posting above? LoL
Apples and oranges. I watched a TV program this morning featuring academics and members of the Japanese ministeries. Interestingly, or maybe not, all 15 members viewed Japan's wartime past as an unfortunate culmination of the geopolitics of the time. Sure, they all agreed that Japan's actions 70 years ago were inexcusable. But they all agreed that the allies were as much to blame. According to most of them, the Nanjing massacre was propaganda by the nationalist and communist Chinese at the time. The truth of what really happened is a moot point. What is evident is that most Japanese see WW2 as something that both sides should share responsibility for. One academic admitted that the indiscriminate bombing of Chinese cities by the IJA was a war crime because it targeted civilians. He then emphatically stated that the USA ought to formally apologize for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My point being that unlike Germany, where the majority of Germans barring a minority of crazy neo Nazis view Germany as the sole perpetrator for WW2, Japan prefers to ignore the unpleasantness of the past. Let bygones be bygones if you will. As for China and South Korea, both countries are only able to bring up the past because they are in a position to do so. An economically expanding China sees Japan as its modern day regional rival. Most South East Asian countries, ie. Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam etc. had bigger fish to fry post independence.
http://world.time.com/2012/12/13/the-nanjing-massacre-scenes-from-a-hideous-slaughter-75-years-ago/ http://theconversation.com/world-war-ii-ended-70-years-ago-while-the-forgotten-death-railway-was-completed-45612<http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/07/wwii-horror-files-unit-731/> http://mobile.abs-cbnnews.com/nation/08/14/15/former-sex-slaves-demand-justice-compensation-japan/
That's what Japan has still to deal with. As for Germany.....http://www.holocausttaskforce.org/education/holocaust-education-reports/germany-holocaust-education-report.html http://understandinggermany.de/history/chancellor-brandt-kneels-in-warsaw/ Show me a link where a Japanese leader knelt or bowed at Nanking, or elsewhere? Until then Germany wins hands down where remorse is concerned
Another of Chinese propaganda thinking that pictures states more than 100 words. Sorry but Dr. Higashinakano of Asia University had analyzed 143 different photos related to the so called Nanking incident and have found that they were all mislabeled, doctored or fabricated.
The Chinese have studied the successes of Zionist's Holocaust Industry and are attempting to apply the same strategies to exploit advantages from Japan and to weaken American political and military support for it.
The reason why are obvious.
Understand this and you can ignore all the rest.
Even Iris Chang was a victim to their manipulation.
As a young Canadian, the history lessons we were taught certainly demonized Germany a lot more than Japan. The war was Hitler's fault and the Nazis were lunatics. Japan was presented as a tough and challenging opponent. Today and certainly starting in the 80's we regarded Japan as an exotic location, full of colour and excitement. The top consumer brands of high quality were Japanese and we looked for the Made in Japan sticker. Germany on the other hand always seemed too foreign, scary, cold and grey.
Supporting mainstream links please
@tinawatanabeAUG. 13, 2015 - 12:32PM JST Japan would have been invaded by the west like other asian countries, it was matter of time.
A young high ranking samurai visited South east Asia and inspected English colonies. Lord Mouri sent him. He found Shogunate was going to have some treaty with England. Then Shogunates was pushing something to lord. long history I skip Japan, especially current Yamaguchi ken ould be colony some 200 years ago. China gave Hong Kong and Singapore. This young man died with TB years before Meiji Ishin. So tina is not wrong.
Another of the PRC propaganda tactics, if you can't argue with the content discredit the source. You are really reaching.LoL
Not sure what you are trying to say here? Stay with evil, so that at least you can say you aren't evading reponsibilty??
@HutchyAUG. 17, 2015 - 12:59AM JST As a young Canadian, the history lessons we were taught certainly demonized Germany a lot more than Japan. The war was Hitler's fault and the Nazis were lunatics. Japan was presented as a tough and challenging opponent. Today and certainly starting in the 80's we regarded Japan as an exotic location, full of colour and excitement. The top consumer brands of high quality were Japanese and we looked for the Made in Japan sticker. Germany on the other hand always seemed too foreign, scary, cold and grey.
m USA, a whole bunch of TV series included anti Nazi scenes. Eva Gabor had plenty of scenes about the character she played fooled Nazi as Hungarian female Nazi hunter. Then Wonder Woman had plenty of fighting against Nazi scenario. Japanese? Once in a while scene to inspect faake Ming Pots and it shows bottom that has 3 kanjis Nippon Product to catch cheaters. Those TV programs still played every day.
You have yet to provide a single proper source to back up your claims. I can come up with a hundred if need be. Enough said
I don't really care of propaganda sources. We don't learn propaganda as history, we learn FACTS , got it?
Feel free to share these facts of yours. Meanwhile I have Mr Miyamoto - a man you has actually seen war in all its horror. Who do you have? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33758721
@Olegek "For lot of Russians German = Nazi".
"Almost the the same situation as in Far East".
Another one rubbish.
You should improve your English in Moscow.
Ask Europeans how they feel about Russia and the conditions behind the Iron Curtain, many of us saw it 1st-hand when we travelled there in the 70's and 80's, or when families got separated. Many tried to escape to the west too.
I don't see how you can make your comments with a good conscience.
Auhh, I looked into Mr. Matsumoto's testimony and found his earliest statements.
If you pay attention to the date it's states June 13, 2010. Now let's look through this document. He talks about how he got his knowledge about the Comfort women. On page 6 and 7 he state he found the background of comfort women from a book written by YOSHIDA SEIJI .Yeah , right.
He also has a grudge against the Emperor system. His ending statement is "して日本は確実に天皇制の復活強化と、戦争への道を歩み始めていると言わざるを得ないと私は思っているのですが、皆さんはいかがでしょうか"
YOSHIDA SEIJI has been completely discredited by everyone. The Korean activists groups will not touch him or use his fiction books any more. Even the residents of Jeiju island were furious at him for insult them suggesting they would have done nothing to defend Korean women being abducted.
We know the Chinese government script is "Germany Good, Japan Bad" and "Japan = extreme right wing fascist", exploiting pre-programmed prejudices in Westerners, but here is just a tiny snapshot of the many, many unanswered paradoxes one has to consider before accepting their script.
In general, apply the rule that, "what the Chinese accuse of Japan, was how the Chinese themselves acted, were like, and did".
Like all the faked photographs mentioned above. They were too obvious.
One of the foundations for the Nanking myths was a New York Times article written by a journalist called Durdin (piles of bodies, Yijiang Gate incident etc). The New York Times remains an mouth piece for anti-Japanese propaganda.
In 1987, Durdin finally conceded that there was no battle between the Chinese and Japanese there. The mounds of corpses had been caused by a stampede of soldiers attempting to escape and trampled to death (the Chinese army was shooting those considered to be deserters. Much of the army was new recruits, forcibly taken in the days before from local citizens, untrained and having no desire to fight). Durdin admitted he did not personally witness the slaying of all captives or civilians, he simply recorded rumors that he had heard.
This was confirmed in 1986 by the journalist Chicago Daily News journalist, Steele, who had written the seminal “Nanking Massacre Story,” (15 December 1937). Steele’s claims were also not based on an eyewitness accounts but rumors.
According to the 'Memoirs of Li Zongren', commander-in-chief of the 5th War Area, his 36th Division shot Chinese units from behind to stop them fleeing. Individuals accused of conspiring against the Chinese army were also shot and killed, severed heads smeared with fresh blood displayed on telephone poles and at street corners.
The atrocities were carried out by the Chinese.
Many leading officers of the Chinese army, including Tang Shengzhi, had themselves deserted early leaving their "troops" without leaders, chaos ensuing. Those deserting discarded their uniforms to beg, steal and even killing for civilian clothing to hide. Many still hid their weapons in them and used them against the Japanese in ambush attacks contrary to international law and conventions of the time.
The so called "civilians" killed were in fact soldiers in civilian clothing.
On December 17, the International Committee stated that the 200,000 refugees were threatened with “starvation.”
However, remarkably, on 28 November 1937, Wang Gupan, head of the Chinese National Police Agency, stated in a report "There are still 200,000 residents remaining here in Nanking.”
Nanking had fallen to the Japanese on December 13 (Steele and other correspondents had left China on December 15) but even on December 17, the city’s population was the same as it had been 20 days before.
This figure is repeated in official reports on December 18 and 21. By 14 January 1938, the total population had risen to 250,000 — an increase of 50,000 (Document No. 41 of the International Committee). A census had been held on December 24 where residents of Nanking were asked to register in person as part of efforts to remove army stragglers hiding amongst them.
The North China Daily News (January 21, 1938) Shanghai, stated victims of killings in Nanking were numbered at 10,000.
A 1941 report from the Chinese Ministry of Information entitled “Outline of the Operations of the International Information Department, Ministry of Information” never mentioned any massacre.
The International Committee (Bates) believed that 12,000 civilians and 30,000 soldiers had been killed in the conflict, however, neither the Chinese authorities nor 'The War Conduct of the Japanese (1938)' published by the Council of International Affairs included as reliable. The Council of International Affairs viewed the 40,000 dead not as victims of a massacre, but of war.
There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in a resolution passed at the League of Nations on 27 May 1938
There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in a 9 day lecture entitled “On Protracted War” given by Mao Zedong starting on May 26.
There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in Chiang Kai-Shek’s "Message to the Japanese People" printed by the Central Information Department (7 July 1938), nor in special issues of English-language magazines commemorating the first anniversary of the Second Sino-Japanese War published in Shanghai.
There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in 'A Digest of Japanese War Conduct' (1939) also issued by them.
There was no mention of a “Nanking Massacre” in the 'Documents of the Nanking Safety Zone'.
By 1940, Rabe, Rosen, Jeffery, Espy, Bates, Durdin, and Steele had all, essentially, retracted their claims.
When Bates’ memorandum was included in 'The Chinese Year Book: 1938-39' (1939) his reference to the massacre of 40,000 Chinese was omitted again as unreliable. (The Year Book was compiled from official source material provided by the Chinese Council of International Affairs in Chongqing from official records from the Republic of China).
It was only in 1945, that the Asahi Shinbun (remember them from the Comfort Women fraud which they were forced to retract recently?) published an article entitled “The History of the Pacific War: The Downfall of Deceitful, Militarist Japan, Supplied by Allied Headquarters” describing Nanking after its occupation. It claimed to have proof that Japanese troops killed ... "20,000 men, women, and children".
However, in 1938, even their own journalist, Yamamoto Osamu, was in Nanking when the hostilities took place. About the alleged atrocities, he wrote: “I neither saw nor heard anything about them. (...) We reporters used to get together every night ... but nobody from any of the Asahi papers mentioned anything of the sort.”
Mao Zedong, Chinese, actually criticized Japanese military strategy in one of his lectures, stating that Japanese troops committed a strategical error by not annihilating enemy soldiers in Nanking (Instead, they had actually been attempted to disarm them and let them go, as was recorded official policy of the battalions).
Just prior to the confrontation, Zhenjiang (to the east of Nankin, population of 200,000) had been set on fire by Chinese and reduced to ruins making all inhabitants homeless, so had all farms, villages and farmland around the area leaving them with no food, shelter, nor transportation out.
By comparison, on January 27 and 28 (45 days after the fall of Nanking), the Japanese military were transporting 1,000s of refugees including those from Shanghai, who had fled to Nanking and wanted to return to Shanghai and all displaced Chinese in the Nanking area back to their homes starting from January 29. (orders issued by the Japanese commander in chief, General Matsui Iwane).
Japan - who cares? Best we lost war so we won industrial war in USA. Spy us more We will save $3 billion a year Omoiyari Fund by kjcking out US bases right away.
Japanese magic = Taking credit for apologizing for things you claim you didn't do.
So you're trying to discredit a war veteran because he disagrees with your revisionist stance. How noble of you Here's another one to dwell on http://www.japanfocus.org/-Tokuro-Inokuma/2952/article.html>
He did that himself by thinking he can gain his time under the lime light by imitating Yoshida, bad call.
As for your new link, what does it have anything with your propaganda concerning either Nanking and/or Comfort women?
If you are trying to evade, it's not working.
The guy put his life on Japan, and sometimes takes part in anti-war parades. Propaganda? No, established, irrefutable fact. Wriggle around it all you want. It doesn't change the fact that what happened - happened. Attempts by deluded revisionists to discredit brave men like this (those with the courage to face their past) is truly not worthy not worthy of Japan
The problem is, what happened isn't what the propaganda says.
Try reality Christopher, it's really quite OK.
Right wing, revisionist reality? No thanks
Both China and Korea have an interest in attempting to label any criticism of their propaganda, or a deeper and more accurate understanding of history, as "Right wing revisionism" in the same was as dissidents were treated during the ironically entitled "Cultural Revolution".
One good lesson to take from that dictatorship era is Mao's opening up of the regime to criticism, the so called 'Hundred Flowers Campaign' -- which was then halted within two months, and those who had been foolish enough to criticise the government were severely punished.
It was a so called "anti-Rightist" campaign. Same dynamics.
The sick joke is that during that time, Mao had over 10,000 Laogai concentration camps housing at any one time as many as 10 million prisoners who were broke and dehumanised
As many as 25 million died in them.
They still exists for those raising political questions after a re-branding exercise.
Whereas it is easy to whip up anti-Japanese sentiments with sound bites and buzz words like, "Remember Pearl Harbor", "Rape of Nanking" or "Unit 731" --- because they are already established as part of wartime propaganda --- it takes a little more effort to expose China's own crimes against the Chinese which are far greater, more obvious and easier to prove.
Try as much as you want to kick Japan into the dirt, there's always going to be an even bigger and more recent dirt pile across the sea.
I mean, ultimately, I can the point in killing one's enemy - but killing as many as 70 million of one's own country people, carrying out a genocidal massacre of one's own intellectuals and religious leaders, and let's not forget the 35 million "disappeared" infant daughters - it's beyond insanity.
As for praising Germany and yet scorning Japan, in Germany there are openly Nazi town and no go areas in cities where no one with dark skin can walk.
Tell me where the Japanese equivalent is?
Oh, we had a school girl saying nasty thing about North Koreans in Japan. How frightening.
Even the "far right" in Japan is kawaii.
In USA how the three axis achieved for 70 years? Discriminated Sicilians created bootlegger business with members using Omerta to have nasty jobs in USA But Mafias do not have business power now. Germany was doing fine with their excellent csars but too many anti Nazi TV program stories that its market share fell down. Meanwhile laughing all Japan brand products are cheap Japan never protested, Results - Japan inc dominating US business and industry.
Look like apology issues are the extension of long finish war thous who don't accept fact WW3 is a history Japan should ignored.
I'm from neither country - yes I'm calling a spade a spade. What Mr Abe espouses is right-wing revisionism. His wife's visit to Yasukuni (and his money donation) just proved that
Such a view is detached from reality. It's bordering on hate speech really.
Hate for a greater intelligence or a more intelligent, more complete view ... because it deconstructs your propagandic facade.
Speak for yourself. I'm sure the gentlemen in the black vans will be accommodating. As before, well done Germany....along way to go Japan
The ideas that Japan has not, that its apologies are not "sincere", that it has backtracked and so on - even the accusations of being over run by "rIght winger" all reflect China's ongoing propaganda campaign and propaganda history.
It's a warped reality China wants to establish in order to weaken political and military support, primarily in the USA.
Japan has apologized and compensated. Remember, that for 250 years before the USA kicked in its fronts doors and threatened it, forcing it to rapidly modernize, Japan was at peace. Since WWI, for over 70 years, Japan has been at peace.
That's 320 years of peace. No other country can match such long period of peace.
The "blame game" will continue as long as there are "gains" (not necessarily benefits) for those that use the past to "justify" unreasonable demands, irrational actions, and unjustified provocations. "Hindsight" benefits both the winner and the loser. However, those that did not gain "enough" or made errors after winning, will continue to use the past to blame others in the past for their "shortcomings" and "inability" to do and be better. Such is the case for all conflicts and wars.
Apology in any form by any particular entity does not change or correct what has happened in the past. No one apologized for wars in the past before WWI. They all suffered the loss by losing territories and human lives. Only today with in our "politically correct" and idealistic social atmosphere, do we "demand" such apology. ISIL (ISIS) or any of those fighting wars today will apologize, no matter how "horrific" and "brutal" their wars may be.
However, a apology in any form at least once for actions done by one's ancestors, is enough. Those that actually perpetuated, "paid" and in a sense "apologized" with their lives. The effort should be in how to normalize and start working together.
This discussion would be much better if we can work to find pathways for improvement.
Because the "weak" and "incompetent" shall always "blame" history and others for their "inability" do do better. Such is life. It is "reflected" so often in what we see everyday, in sports.
The different attitudes to Germany and Japan are NOT a reflection on either of those two countries, but on their neighbours.
Europeans have decided to move on, and not continue to regard modern Germany as our enemy. Yes, second world war films are still made, but they are entertainment and seen as reflecting history, not as a reason for antagonism against Germany today. And yes, the war is taught in schools, but again, it is put in its historical context.
It seems, however, that people in Korea and especially China have very different personalities and are not willing to draw a line under the past and move on. That, as I said, reflects on them, not on Japan.
British soldiers were treated far worse by their Japanese captors than their German ones (who generally abided by the Geneva Convention), but you don't hear British politicians, or the British media or public, constantly whingeing and whining about Japan today, or who visits which shrine, do you?
Japanese today cannot be blamed for what some of their fathers and grandfathers did, so while I do not suggest that those who committed wartime atrocities should be forgiven, we should be willing to forget what Germany and Japan did in the past, live in the present, and look to the future.