Court rules restrictions on transgender official's use of women's toilet legal

Makes no sense.

Penis or not penis ? (Shortcut to saying he has kept some apparently).

It’s a case of a man going into a woman’s toilet. He shouldn’t be in there.

If you have a Penis you use the mens toilet. If you have a Vagina you use the womens toilet. No matter what you tell yourself, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. Just watch the movie Kintergarden Cop! A little boy in the movie educates the world! If you change the rules you are going to get men who like little girls going into the womens toilet. I don't want to have to pur the smack down on perverts!

I really do not agree with a man calling himself a woman, but that is normal these days.

So if you mentally, emotionally are a female, but due to having the outward appearance of a male, you should feel shame because you are wired differently?, that’s not your fault and nothing to feel any embarrassment about. As for deviant behavior 99% of deviants are heterosexual males. So that’s not even an issue, just small minded fear induced stupidity. Women’s toilets are cubicles anyway. So if anything when I pee and the man next to me leans to see my parts, think that is more uncomfortable in the workplace. We are all different and that’s a good thing. Legal bigotry is not a way forward.

Shouldn't people be encouraged to face reality? Why do we all have to go into agreement with the fantasy of a man who "identifies" as a woman?

samuraivunylToday 06:57 am JST

Why is the article referring to this person as 'her'.? If the person has male chromosomes, then he is still male. You can buy a Nissan march and put a Ferrari body kit on it. Its still a Nissan march.

Transwomen have every right to use female pronouns. You should take note of the court's ruling that purposefully misgendering someone is harassment, and you can be fined.

I'm a man who habitually wears dresses and etc, it's just the way I live, the way I'm comfortable. I own a willy and have no desire whatsoever to swap it for anything else.... I therefore use men's toilets (get a few double-takes, a few men who check the signs, thinking they've entered the wrong place LOL). I don't identify as a woman, I identify as me, simple as that. my view is that penises belong in 'the gents', vaginas in 'the ladies'. if I can be comfortable using the men's, i.e. comfortable with myself, don't see why others find it problematic. my experience is that by being comfortable with myself, others are comfortable with me, in any and all situations. of course, being comfortable with oneself takes time, and effort..... a lot of both.

foreignbrotherhoodarmyToday 07:01 am JST

It’s a case of a man going into a woman’s toilet. He shouldn’t be in there.

It is the case of a transgender woman using the restroom of the gender she identifies with. She belongs in there just as much as any woman.

HoldingYouAccountableToday 07:04 am JST

If you have a Penis you use the mens toilet. If you have a Vagina you use the womens toilet.

Not every man has a penis, and not every woman has a vulva. Transgender people have every right to use the toilet of the gender they identify with - transmen are men; transwomen are women.

No matter what you tell yourself, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina. Just watch the movie Kintergarden Cop! A little boy in the movie educates the world! If you change the rules you are going to get men who like little girls going into the womens toilet.

You got your education on gender dysphoria from an 8-year old actor in a movie from the 1980's?

I would suggest that your education is insufficienct in this area. May I suggest this site from the American Psychiatric Association, for accurate, up-to-date medical information?

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

I don't want to have to pur the smack down on perverts!

Are you THREATENING to ATTACK transwomen?

Mod, I think that is quite enough from this poster.

DariusToday 07:09 am JST

I really do not agree with a man calling himself a woman, but that is normal these days.

It is perfectly normal. And you don't have to approve - you just have to be respectful and polite.

The whole point of having segregated toilets is to protect women.

BertieWoosterToday 07:20 am JST

Shouldn't people be encouraged to face reality? Why do we all have to go into agreement with the fantasy of a man who "identifies" as a woman?

It seems you are in need of an education on this issue: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria

Maybe the official should carry a portable toilet.

Online hate can lead to real-life consequences for the people being maligned. This is not speculation; it has been well-documented. One example of his is the rise in attacks on transgender people in the US that have taken place since debates began on issues like the one referenced in this article: the right of transpeople to use the bathroom of their gender identity.

It is hateful to refer to transgender people as "perverts".

It is hateful to purposefully misgender someone.

It is hateful to wonder out loud about someone's genitals and question their identity.

It is hateful to threaten to attack a transwoman for using the correct bathroom.

It is hateful to deny that gender dysphoria is a real condition; and further, it is hateful to refer to the recommended treatment for gender identity disorder as "not facing reality."

If nothing else, transgender people are owed the basic kindness and respect owed any human being, and here that means not debating their human rights, questioning their self-identity, or speaking of them in derogatory terms.

Good for the courts in Japan. Common sense prevails in Japan.

girl_in_tokyo.....

It's not just about the feelings of the trans "women", the feelings of the others using the restroom need to be taken into account. In this case they were not happy with someone they knew to be male using the same bathroom. And sorry, your "they need education" and are wrong argument just doesn't cut it. The idea that anyone can "identify" as whatever they wish is plain nonsense to many of us. This may be an extreme example but, would you be comfortable with an obvious man in a dress going into the swimming pool changing rooms with your 12 year old daughter? Does he really "identify" or is he just a pervert out for kicks? You don't know whats in his mind.

So petty. My favorite bar in NYC, McSorleys, didn't allow women until it had to, and still has only one toilet for use by both sexes. Elimination of bodily waste is simply a biological function and has nothing to do with anything else.

If gender is a social construct, does it not follow that your gender is not your decision alone but a negotiation between the individual and society at large? Perhaps, for now, providing a unisex lavatory option in public spaces and larger private offices would be a reasonable compromise.

Just replace gendered toilet blocks with individual units, open to all, and move on. And ensure that enough are accessible to disabled people, who don't have the option of self-identifying as fully able.

Create a gender-neutral toilet that anyone can use. Problem solved.

A man is a man a women is a women. There is no changing that no matter what you do.

A man is a man a women is a women. There is no changing that no matter what you do.

you can't change your chromosomes, YWNBAW

Another setback for transgender rights. I've said this elsewhere. Being intersex is "normal". About 1% of the population is estimated to be (that includes trans men, women and non-binary). The fact that their existence and their right to be treated like humans are still contested only shows how long of a way we have to go.

Some of the trans people I know have transitioned in a way that it's hard to tell they are transgender. Some haven't, some don't want to. Either way, it's nobody's business to ask what's in their pants. You wouldn't do that to a cis gender person.

Where do majority rights come into the discussion?

If you have a Penis you use the mens toilet. If you have a Vagina you use the womens toilet. No matter what you tell yourself, boys have a penis, girls have a vagina.

exactly.

Now here's an idea- swap the men and women signs on the toilet for a penis and balls on one and a pair of breasts and a vagina on the other.

That way, its not about how you identify, its about the equipment you sport. You can identify as anything you want, but just look at the sign and see if it matches what you have.

However, a prerequisite for such a change is undergoing sex change surgery, which the official did not undergo due to health reasons.

Person with penis wants to use women's toilet. Also, did he ask any of the women he worked with if it was okay with ALL of them if he uses the toilet?

I'm not transphobic, but this is just plain common sense.

Make up your mind sir or mam, you are either a He or A She!? so the court can decide. You can't have it both ways, LOL

did he ask any of the women he worked with if it was okay with ALL of them if he uses the toilet?

Who cares? Why should trans people be forced to coddle the ignorant? Should black people have thought more about the feelings of white folks on the busses they were riding and the lunch counters they were eating at? Should lesbians and gays have to think about the feelings of everyone who doesn't want them to get married? Why are we not encouraging everyone to just mind their own damn business? If you people actually knew any transgender people rather than just mindlessly taking in whatever Fox News tells you, you'd know that using the bathroom that aligns with your gender is a huge step for trans folks that is never taken lightly - you aren't going to see some bearded gorilla man in a dress in the woman's restroom. It just doesn't happen.

The women's toilets are all cubicles so what the problem?

The problem is that the vast majority of the women themselves don't want biological men in their restrooms, change rooms, saunas, public baths, hospital wards, etc. And these women have rights.

And parents don't want biological men in restrooms alongside thier daughters. These girls have rights too.

Mr KiplingToday 07:51 am JST

It's not just about the feelings of the trans "women", the feelings of the others using the restroom need to be taken into account.

Transgender people did not just appear overnight. They have always existed, and have been using changing rooms and bathrooms all along - yet this has only recently become an issue. It's become an issue because of prejudice and the accompanying fear mongering and negative discourse. Simply put, bigotry towards transpeople should not be indulged, so someone's discomfort at using the same bathroom as a transperson is immaterial.

would you be comfortable with an obvious man in a dress going into the swimming pool changing rooms with your 12 year old daughter?

Transgender women are not "a man in a dress." They are women.

One of my best friends is a transgender woman. I'm perfectly comfortable in changing rooms with her, and if I had a 12 year old daughter I would not hesitate to leave her alone with my friend.

Does he really "identify" or is he just a pervert out for kicks? You don't know whats in his mind.

Note: if you are worried that a cisgender man would pretend to be a transwoman in order to molest children in changing rooms, then your problem is with CISGENDER MEN and not transpeople.

The media is stirring the pot again. And this guy in the courtroom with his agenda. This country was a safe heaven from identity politics so far. I hope it stays that way.

151EToday 07:56 am JST

If gender is a social construct, does it not follow that your gender is not your decision alone but a negotiation between the individual and society at large? 

That is not what the theory of gender as a social construct means. Go look it up; you need to do some reading.

Perhaps, for now, providing a unisex lavatory option in public spaces and larger private offices would be a reasonable compromise.

Why should we indluge people's ignorance and bigotry?

P. SmithToday 08:37 am JST

This isn’t actually a right.

Human right - not legal right.

These are two different concepts, and do not forget that human rights have often been suppressed by governments. See "slavery".

@girl_in_tokyo

I admire and respect your determination and empathy in the face of such vitriol.

You give strength to some.

Thank you.

WobotToday 08:48 am JST

The person in question still sounds like look like a typical man and hasn't had medical intervention to resolve their feelings vis-à-vis their physique.

For your information, transpeople do not always undergo surgery. Many transpeople can resolve their feelings simply by transitioning - and this is medical fact, and is not up for debate.

They are recognised as having a mental illness,

It is not a mental illness.

but their circumstances have to carefully balanced against the rest of society

Society is often wrong and bigoted. Are you saying we should allow public opinion to dictate who we give human rights to?

. I feel sorry for them but we can't reorganise society around tiny percentages of individuals and this is the thin end of the wedge for what other countries have ended up doing like referring to women as 'birthing people': https://youtu.be/DRroIY47QAQ

What you seem to be mad about is that you don't like that transgender women and men are being more recognized and are asking for basic consideration and respect. How does it hurt you in any way to change pronouns, or to use different, more inclusive language?

iradickleToday 08:41 am JST

However, a prerequisite for such a change is undergoing sex change surgery, which the official did not undergo due to health reasons.

Person with penis wants to use women's toilet. Also, did he ask any of the women he worked with if it was okay with ALL of them if he uses the toilet?

I'm not transphobic, but this is just plain common sense.

This is not common sense. It is a view formed purely out of a personal prejudice. Aka, transphobia.

Here are some examples of the dangers of introducing laws allowing biological men into women's and girls' private spaces.....

5 Times ‘Transgender’ Men Abused Women And Children In Bathrooms

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo

Just build toilets for transgenders.

Toilets for transgenders and toilets for non transgenders.

For instance, if a Latinx person feels like an Inuit, people need to respect that. We should not be picking and choosing whose feelings to respect lest we discriminate against some.

Except there is absolutely no scientific evidence that validates that - evidence which does exist - plentifully at that - that justifies trans identities. girl_in_tokyo has linked to a lot of good stuff but of course everyone is ignoring it. You can't bother showing facts to people who are committed to their ignorance.

Always a laugh to see people justifying their bigotry by bringing up paranoia over sexual abuse in the bathroom. Guess what? Sexual abuse is illegal. "I was going to disguise myself as a woman to abuse some kids in this bathroom but oop! - I guess I can't since going in the bathroom is illegal" - said absolutely no sexual predator ever. These laws do nothing to stop sexual abuse, they only harm trans folks who are simply trying to mind their own business.

I know a lot of woke warriors like to play mental games but it really can't be more simple: If you have a tool you are a dude.

next...

@Concerned Citizen

I'm honestly a bit surprised you don't realise this argument had really gotten old.

Trans women undergo hormone therapy and various types of surgery. "Not allowing biological men" in certain spaces would mean checking everyone's genitals at the entrance. I don't know how you'd do that if you're so concerned about women's safety and comfort.

I know a lot of woke warriors like to play mental games but it really can't be more simple: If you have a tool you are a dude.

TIL that listening to scientific and medical experts means playing "mental games" instead of just accepting facts and opening my mind to accept that many things in life are not black and white. Wow!

I don't know how you'd do that if you're so concerned about women's safety and comfort.

Yeah a lot of people here REALLY seem intent on checking people's genitalia in bathrooms, and then have the gall to call other people perverts?!

Jsapc....

Its not a right wing vs left wing. Its facts, reality and biology versus indulging those whose "feelings" are hurt when we refuse to go along with their fantasies.

We’re confused by your choice of terms:

- @giT - “you know my bf is queer...”

Is he ‘queer’ or “bi-sexual”?

Because of the all this confusion, and hate, being perpetuate by some ‘within the ranks’, we’re left ‘Questioning’ about continuing to support many perceived social issues.

Similarly, this woman had a different kind of ‘awakening’: -

*- “A liberal who spent 20 years in “the SJW Cult,” Keri Smith offers firsthand experience on the Social Justice Left and its growing influence in mainstream culture. She illuminates the differences between what social justice ideology claims to be versus what it actually is and how it operates. Her goal is to make her former belief system easier to understand, for those still caught up in it and those who are just now encountering it in their schools, workplaces, churches and hobby groups.” - *

"On Leaving the SJW Cult and Finding Myself" - https://www.kerismith.net/ -

The problem with both sides of this argument is that they are using archaic and outmoded ideas of gender. The thought that there are only two genders has been quite out of favor for years now. Here are but a few examples: gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, etc. Where do THEY go?

Sorry but you can't have it both ways. If you subscribe to the leftist pap that there are multiple genders, all based onfeelings, and all can be entered and left freely, then the trans argument is moot.

Notice that psychiatry combines natural science and social science. Since social science is included, we have to take it into consideration when discussing psychiatric afflictions.

Considerations that support transgenderism seem to apply equally to transracialism. 

Definitely an interesting article - thanks for sharing. But until there is actual scientific evidence for this like there is which supports trans identities (I'm not sure how that would be possible since race science is bunk) I'm not sure it's worth bringing this up. There is actually an entire wikipedia page about this article and the controversy surrounding it. Not really the best source as of right now.

Its facts, reality and biology versus indulging those whose "feelings" are hurt when we refuse to go along with their fantasies.

Sure, good luck finding a respectable biologist who would agree with you. Keep burying your head in the sand...

@Yotomaya

Another setback for transgender rights. I've said this elsewhere. Being intersex is "normal". About 1% of the population is estimated to be (that includes trans men, women and non-binary). The fact that their existence and their right to be treated like humans are still contested only shows how long of a way we have to go.

Some of the trans people I know have transitioned in a way that it's hard to tell they are transgender. Some haven't, some don't want to. Either way, it's nobody's business to ask what's in their pants. You wouldn't do that to a cis gender person.

Where do you get your figures. I had found a figure of only 0.07% of the world's population with gender dysphoria.

For arguments sake let's say at 1% or even at 0.07%, it doesn' t matter because they surely need to be treated humanely and politely and decently. No question about it.

The questions is, however, how to afford them what they need without encroaching in the other 99% or more people's sphere or without alienating them! The fact of the matter is why would 99% of people need to accommodate for the 1%, not that they don't need to respect them, and not that the 1% needs to conform to what the 99% says either! But certainly likewise the 99% shouldn't have to conform to what the 1% want either.

In other words, a solution viable for both needs to be worked out.

In the cases you mention they clearly "transitioned" to being a man or woman, so that's the END of it. THEY are MAN or WOMEN, they are NOT trans anymore. And they should go on living their lives as MAN or WOMAN. And that's it. But in cases like the one in the article, a guy says he identifies as a woman, but HAS NOT transitioned!! Still has his male genitalia but only uses women clothes... certainly you have to see in those cases it creates a conflict and an encroachment in the other 99% liberties and "emotionally safe" environment, etc. And the 99% shouldn't just out of the blue be forced to accommodate this person, LITERALY a man in women's clothes in the ladies toilet or a man in women's clothes in the men's toilet. AND if he were actually a WOMAN, she should understand the feeling of having a man in your toilet. Just as it is unfair to expect this 1% to conform to what the 99% would say, it is unfair, perhaps even more so, to have the 99% accommodate as per the whishes and even whims of the 1%. (Again, for a FULLY transitioned person with gender dysphoria, the story is simpler, they are now MAN or WOMAN, that's the end of it. The issue arises for people who don't physically transition, or those without the actual gender dysphoria body and diagnostic but that psychological issues moves them to want to switch, those pose a challenge for society that needs to be worked out on middle grounds) That's why a middle ground was searched for in this case, determining certain toilets for him to use. I think is pretty reasonable for his/her situation. The 99% doesn't need to fully accommodate to his condition, and him/her is not completely shun out or left out of the workplace. If you think about it it happens the same to every other minority, wheelchairs, blind people, even kids, they have special toilets and special accesses, as needed, so the 99% don' t need to all use access ramps or canes or guiding aids or small toilets, they still have their stairs, their quick roads and proper sized toilets. That is the way to aim for. Not to just ram things.

You have to just smile at the person just going through the comments hitting that dislike button because they don't like or agree with what people are saying.

Transgender folk aren't the only ones with toilet anxiety. Replace gendered toilets with self-contained cubicles.

@Yotomaya

I'm honestly a bit surprised you don't realise this argument had really gotten old.

Trans women undergo hormone therapy and various types of surgery.

Not all claiming to be transgender undergo reassignment surgery.

Besides, you're argument shouldn't be with me.....rather with with vast majority of women and girls who don't want biological men in thier private spaces. Don't they have the right to privacy and safety?

The correct verdict was made.

It would be absurd (and extremely dangerous) if men who decided they were women - and dressed like one - were permitted to use female toilets, especially so those with children. The dangers of disguised predators lurking in there would be very real.

On the other hand, abuse of LGBTQII+ people as occurred in this story is wrong. I am glad the offender was fined.

You have to just smile at the person just going through the comments hitting that dislike button because they don't like or agree with what people are saying.

We all get down voted occasionally. No problem. Just ignore it and dont let it get to you.

Wikipedia is not the best source. The cites included, if properly vetted, are a good sources.

Oh, I know. I just think it's interesting that the article made such a splash that there was such a lengthy entry written on it.

Is there scientific evidence supporting transgenderism? I saw some studies, but nothing conclusive. If there is evidence, I’d be happy to read about it.

Well, it depends on what you mean by "supporting transgenderism". We know that intersex people are real. We know that there are people who have penises but feel like women. We know studies have been done (https://news.usc.edu/158899/transgender-research-usc-brain-gender-identity/) that indicate brain activity which is more similar to that of their psychological gender than their biological sex. We know that chromosomes do not always dictate the genitalia people will have. I'm not going to post a laundry list of articles for you to read but this is a good start. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

It would be absurd (and extremely dangerous) if men who decided they were women - and dressed like one - were permitted to use female toilets, especially so those with children. The dangers of disguised predators lurking in there would be very real.

Please explain how a law would prevent someone from entering a bathroom, but not stop them from assaulting someone. Do you have any idea how silly this argument sounds from a logical perspective?

Concerned CitizenToday 09:29 am JST

Here are some examples of the dangers of introducing laws allowing biological men into women's and girls' private spaces.....

5 Times ‘Transgender’ Men Abused Women And Children In Bathrooms

https://www.dailywire.com/news/5-times-transgender-men-abused-women-and-children-amanda-prestigiacomo

Shall I list all the recent articles detailing crimes by cisgender men against women?

We wouldn't have enough space for all of them, even in a single day. I note you only found five.

The fact is, the vast majority of crime against women is perpetrated by CISGENDER men. The occurrences of crimes committed by transgender people is vastly overwhelmed by the numbers of crimes against women committed by cisgender men.

So by your logic, we should probably not let cisgnder men out in public, at all, ever. They are way too dangerous.

"We know that intersex people are real."

Really? What we actually know is that men wearing dresses are real.

Really? What we actually know is that men wearing dresses are real.

We get it, you care more about reactionary nonsense than actual science and facts. Do you even know what it means to be intersex? Get outta here.

Besides, you're argument shouldn't be with me.....rather with with vast majority of women and girls who don't want biological men in thier private spaces. Don't they have the right to privacy and safety?

You're the one who posted the article, so I don't get how the argument shouldn't be with you.

Hiding behind the veneer of caring about anyone's safety doesn't change the fact that it's disingenuous to suggest that trans people by their very nature are a threat to society. The fact is that they are actually disproportionately the victims of violence and discrimination.

You should take note of the court's ruling that purposefully misgendering someone is harassment, and you can be fined.

IF... that were true, it would be a scary indication of what the extreme left want to do; forcibly cause everyone to use speech they do not wish to use. This is absolutely against free speech.

There have been unisex toilet in Lyon/France since I can remember.

Would I venture in the a male toilet?

Not on your life.

Would I mind if a man dressed in a frock used the cubicle next to mine.

Not really. The crossdressers I have had pleasure to meet are not remotely perverts.

This whole Trans thing has been blown out of proportion.

Politics and urinals who needs it?

The classic thing here is it's all about the transgender person... What about all the women who have to share the toilet with them? Who respects their wishes? Japanese people are pretty conservative as a whole, I am sure there are many women at that office who have complained about having to share their toilet with what is biologically at least a man...

The legal ramifications also could be concerning as any guy could walk into ladies toilets and claim when arrested that they identify as a woman.

As there seems so much controversy around peoples gender identity... toilets should be identified as solely biological. Male genitalia this side, female genitalia that side!

something I've thought before, and now, again, with regard to this story is..... if someone regards themselves as a woman, or as a man, why the need for the prefix 'trans'? a woman is a woman, a man is a man... I don't understand the need to classify in any other way.

I could never figure out the whole toilet obsession anyway, on either side. It is creepy and borderline psychotic. Easiest solution is non gendered bathrooms with private stalls. Which probably makes nobody happy, which is why it is probably the best solution.

All male toilets should be labelled as gender neutral anyone can use them.

Identity is a two-way street - I can walk around telling the whole world I identify as Japanese (and I have a pretty good claim to do so - over half my life here, fluent Japanese etc) but if the Japanese don't accept me as Japanese then so be it - I'm not Japanese and no amount of protesting will see otherwise.

If women are unable to accept transgender people in their toilet then it is their misguided right to do so.

P. SmithToday 09:35 am JST

Well stated.

I’m happy to use preferred pronouns and let people be who they feel like they are. However, if this applies to people’s gender, I believe it also applies to other identifiers.

For instance, if a Latinx person feels like an Inuit, people need to respect that. We should not be picking and choosing whose feelings to respect lest we discriminate against some.

I wasn't aware there is a documented psychological condition that caused people to feel they were born in the wrong country. In fact, I think you made that up.

We respect gender identity because this is a real condition that happens to people, is not their fault, and really, it should not be the big deal that so many people make it out to be.

Very easy to solve problem. In an office building the women should be democratically vote about if that transgender person should be allowed to use the women’s restroom. If the majority is against, ‘she’ has still to use the men’s (or third gender restroom, at a few locations already available). And if the majority of women agree, then ‘she’ can use the women’s restroom as all the other women. Now, slightly different in public, the transgender person has to ask beforehand, if ‘she’ may use such a restroom, that means an accompanying woman that checks the situation or warns or explains to to the other women already in or waiting in line before the restroom. Again, if denied, men’s or third gender restroom, if accepted, fine too. So where is the real problem here? I don’t understand that hype or panic. You also often have female staff in men’s restrooms or in onsen baths and nobody complains or cries out loud.

aAaand.... some people opine that anyone has a 'right' to identify as whatever they wish. fair enough! however, some people also opine that it's a case of prejudice if someone wishes not to share their toilet or whatever with that person. so we can say that they have a 'right' also, to not share said facilities. if they are denied that right, aren't they being prejudiced against? can't please all the people all the time.

though there's not a lot of detail in this story, it seems that the person in question is allowed considerable freedom: namely, to dress as (s)he wants, and aparently has been living and working in that environment for more than a decade.... also, sounds that after explaining to her colleagues in 2010, (s)he was accepted. presumably then, the male colleaugues would accept sharing a bathroom with someone with the same genetic equipment?

seems to me that the big problem for this person is not being in good enough physical/health condition to undergo the desired surgery.

I have to wonder what the situation is in any other public toilets (s)he may use in the course of the day-to-day.

personally I thought the judge took a very balanced view, taking into consideration the needs and feelings of everyone involved.

....and finally.... the ruling deals only with 'the law', which doesn't imply any personal moral dimension.... which is why the person will appeal in law.

Since this is a Japan based forum, let's go for a more local style of topic. Forget toilets, how about hot springs?

What do you think of a trans woman using the women's part of an onsen, or of a public bath? Would it bother any women if the person was pre-op and still had all the, how can I say, male parts still fully present?

Ditto a trans man using the men's sento.....

Daninthepan Today 11:48 am JST

All male toilets should be labelled as gender neutral anyone can use them.

Ha! No, thank you. I'd rather not. Cisgender men are well-known dangers to women. And men tend to have this weird idea that if a woman even peripherally shows interest in them that it means she wants to have sex. And many cisgender men also think that they have the right to women's bodies - so if a woman went into a men's bathroom, she'd be in physical danger of sexual assault.

Identity is a two-way street - I can walk around telling the whole world I identify as Japanese (and I have a pretty good claim to do so - over half my life here, fluent Japanese etc) but if the Japanese don't accept me as Japanese then so be it - I'm not Japanese and no amount of protesting will see otherwise.

Again, I wasn't aware that there is a recognized condition where people feel they were born in the wrong country. Like P. Smith, I think you just made that up. Again, the reason we respect people's gender identity is because this is a real condition that happens to people, is not their fault, and really - it should not be such a big deal. But many people harbor illogical personal prejudices about it.

If women are unable to accept transgender people in their toilet then it is their misguided right to do so.

Why should we indulge illogical, ignorant, personal prejudices?

Let's reword that in a way that illustrates it's true impact:

If white people are unable to accept black peopel in their neighborhood, then it is their misguided right to do so.

Bigotry of any kind should not be indulged or tolerated.

This is one idea, but it would double the number of facilities. Men, women, transmen, and trans women toilets.

Well, obviously.

Until everyone is comfortable with using toilets with the opposite sex then that's one solution.

You even separated the transmen from transwomen so they too must be uncomfortable with the opposite gender in your view.

It doesn't seem right that they are forcing the opposite sex to like sharing the bathroom with them.

The toilet thing is bizarrely interesting.... come to think of it my wife always uses the same toilet in our house, even though it is on the second floor. I always use the first floor one because it is closer to the tv and my man cave. If I use the second floor one she gives me a bit of a look as if I were somehow trespassing on 'her' turf.

Perhaps, for now, providing a unisex lavatory option in public spaces and larger private offices would be a reasonable compromise.

Agree with unisex lav. Seems too simple.

Reading these comments are so depressing, like traveling back 20 years in time. It should't even need to be said but: Trans women are women. Trans men are men.

But even though there are setbacks for sure, the world is moving forward without your dinosaur views, and there is comfort in that.

Please stop misidentifying and confusing others @girl_in_Tokyo 11:55pm with your misinformation. The Inuit are a “First People” and not a “country”, as you referred to erroneously. Show some respect!

This is a very serious and sensitive issue. We are an “ethnic group” of “indigenous peoples” and not to be confused with any of the other ethnic groups you may try to conflate into these issues with your need to continually argue with others.

We also imagine the other ethnic groups, “Latinos” or “Latinx” You referred to as “countries” may be just as offended by your ‘cultural misalignment’. As someone pointed out earlier, you should not be selectively picking & choosing whose ‘identities’ and feelings others must respect while You may be doing your own forms of ‘discrimination’.

Perhaps it is just simple ignorance and, some ‘education’ on the matter is needed. Therefore, should we take offense or, will we see ‘Your apology’ to soon to follow? (We will not be ignored!)

 Trans women are women. Trans men are men.

Read your latest biology book.

Thomas TankToday  11:15 am JST

You should take note of the court's ruling that purposefully misgendering someone is harassment, and you can be fined.

IF... that were true, it would be a scary indication of what the extreme left want to do; forcibly cause everyone to use speech they do not wish to use. This is absolutely against free speech.

It’s very telling that you think using derogatory slurs and verbal harassment is acceptable.

it’s not about free speech - it’s about the right of people to live their lives without being harassed.

Just like you can’t follow a black person around yelling the N word, you can’t purposely misgender someone.

What about trans peoples’ right to exist without being harassed?

The toilet thing is bizarrely interesting.... come to think of it my wife always uses the same toilet in our house, even though it is on the second floor. I always use the first floor one because it is closer to the tv and my man cave. If I use the second floor one she gives me a bit of a look as if I were somehow trespassing on 'her' turf.

Do you have transgender toilets in your house?

it’s not about free speech - it’s about the right of people to live their lives without being harassed.

but not when it comes to the woman's toilet.

Hmm. I mentioned something similar to the judges ruling a couple of days ago. It will be very hard for a minority to overturn majority consensus in the working world because of the "maintaining a w good working environment" argument. At the same time, it's the bathroom; if one has time to complain about the people in the bathroom and one is reluctant to use the bathroom because of the possibility of someone being in there that one doesn't like......one is really not pressed to relieve themselves.

Where I think ministry made a mistake was indicating that the floors above and below the department were off-limits without stipulating that the rules for restrooms applied to the entire building. What is to say this person just goes to another department and uses the restroom they want without consequence.

HoldingYouAccountable; Yes. All are welcome to use either of them.

Except me apparently...

GirlInTokyo; you are missing the point. It is illegal to follow ANYONE around YELLING. It matters not what their ethnic background is, or what you are yelling. It is the yelling that is wrong, not the words.

Ditto harrassment. It is a crime, regardless the particulars of the people involved. No special treatment for anyone. If you think using a wrong word constitutes harrassment, then you are deluded. Any more than someone mispronouncing my name (whether by mistake or on purpose) is a criminal offense.

And no, it is not socially acceptable to insult anyone. However, that is not a place for the crushing might of government to intervene. There is no need for men with guns to enforce social mores.

I am sort of on the fence on this.

Where I see far more danger is the movement in many western countries to make all public toilets unisex.

Sound great if you ignore human nature, fact, the environment, etc ..

Any man will tell you that it is a regular occurrence to see men leave the urinal while not having fully returned their tool to its place.

So unless unisex toilets remove urinals, we will have a lot of complaints and misunderstandings.

Then by removing urinals replacing them with flush toilets we increase the use of water ( lets face it urinals use a fraction).

If my daughter was still a child I would have no problem letting her go to the women's toilet even with transgender using them.

But I would never let her use a unisex public toilet without going with her.

( By public toilet I am referring to those with multiple stalls like in malls and not the single person ones like in convenient stores)

My worry is that gender identity (male female) and sexual orientation (gay straight) are different. A guy can identify as a female and become a trans female, but still be straight. I'm not sure if I want that person in a woman's restroom.

Haha. In my attempt to be inclusive, I stepped on toes.

If you're referring to my toes, no.

I was just threshing out implications.

I said "in your view" only because it was your statement I replied to

girl_in_tokyo

It is the case of a transgender woman using the restroom of the gender she identifies with. She belongs in there just as much as any woman.

But I think you will find that it doesn't matter what the individual identifies him/herself as. The whole problem is that the person in question is identifying him/herself in such a way that is not conforming to reality and is making other people uncomfortable.

You see, I think the transgender community should not be able to dictate others to tolerate any behavior because he/she is uncomfortable with the gender assigned at birth. Nor should the transgender community be able to dictate speech, or anything for that matter. I will try to explain this point further

I have met and talked to a lot of transgender people up until now, and I have yet to see somebody who is truly satisfied or happy with who they are and/or what they have become when they started transitioning. According to my experiences, this is true for people who have completed reassignment surgery as well. People are suffering because they aren't what they feel they should be. So letting people live in a delusion and encouraging them for having said delusion can be very very harmful to the human mind. All it takes is a look between their own legs, or an ignorant person or a child (not even a malignant actor) to say "Here you go, sir." and their whole world is thrown into turmoil because they received disillusioning feedback for something that everybody assured them of.

In my eyes, the trans community is doing more harm than good. Forcing others to accept someone's delusion as reality because it would shatter them otherwise as opposed to helping them embrace what they were born as seems counterproductive to me. But, in the end, it's their life and they can choose to live it however they like.

I make an effort to treat everyone equally. I don't care whether they identify themselves as male, female, a plant, an animal or a Pokemon. As long as they don't harass me with their delusions, we're cool.

But as soon as somebody is trying to dictate my speech or what I have to tolerate and accept, then please understand that this makes equal treatment of the person or group impossible by default, since this would constitute preferential treatment by virtue of sexual identity. In other words, it's reverse sexual discrimination.

So if a transsexual woman is allowed to use the womens' restroom and I'm not, that would make it reverse discriminatory towards me by virtue of gender identity (not even sex). Not being able to go to the women's bathroom just because I have something dangling between my legs and identify as cis sounds pretty cisphobic, not gonna lie.

So, do you agree that I should also be able to come in to use the women's restroom at the same time as you and wash my hands next to you and watch you adjust your makeup afterwards at the sink? Maybe I could put on some aftershave or brush my teeth next to you.

Would you be comfortable with this thought? Would the majority of women be comfortable with this thought? Would it be OK if I looked no different but wasn't cis?

Not that I'd be interested in using the ladies' bathroom, but you should get my point. It's not about what I think should be the best for me, but what the majority is comfortable with. Why should we use any other standards for trans people than for normal people?

In light of this, allowing the use of a women's restroom on another floor should be considered generous enough.

You even separated the transmen from transwomen so they too must be uncomfortable with the opposite gender in your view.

Anyway, do you know if they are?

Because that would really be in conflict with wanting the opposite sex to be comfortable with them in the bathroom.

@gokai wo maneku

Should a straight man worry about using a urinal next to a gay man? And should lesbians be allowed to use women's toilets?

You’ve Added ‘misinformation about ethnicities’, and Now, examples of blatant ‘racism’ into these ‘conversations’ about potential ‘misgendering’ @girl_in_Tokyo 12:42pm?!?

- @girl_in_Tokyo 12:42pm: “Just like you can’t follow a black person around yelling the N word, you can’t purposely misgender someone.”

@girl_in_Tokyo 12:42pm Are You trying to equate ‘purposefully disregarding someone’s expressed preferences for a specific pronoun’ to ‘blatantly harassing a person with racial slurs and epithets’??

Does that seem at all fair, logical and reasonable? Perhaps we should try Your proven @7:33am directions for such absurdity:

*- “[We] think that is quite enough...” -*

Apparently, You routinely get ‘a pass’ to continue. We are still awaiting Your apology to Indigenous Peoples and other ethnicities you misappropriated and misaligned today for Your arguments.

So I don't know how many cis women are actually partaking in today's eloquent exchange. However, if anyone believes that one's genitals should determine which toilet they use, what about trans men?

Do you think most women would be comfortable with a bearded person who has a deep voice and dresses like a man using the same private space as them just because they don't fit your narrow definition of a male?

Glad to hear. Figured it was the case, but you can see how I likely did step on some toes.

Yep. Doesn't really matter though, everyone should be ready for their toes to be stepped on when they wade through here. But, of course, within reasonable limits.

You’re conflating sex with gender

Nope I'm not conflating the terms. I had hoped my usage was clear enough, apparently not.

The main problem with this issue actually is precisely the conflating of the two terms. That's why we hear patently false declarations like transmen are men, transwomen are women.

That's why my advice was for people to read the latest biology book they can get their hand on so they know how to differentiate male and female

If transexuals and toilets are a problem what about onsens? Some have opened up to the LGBT Community.

Haha I purposely deleted showers in one of my posts.

But it should have occured to everyone that if transgenders are allowed on the opposite sex toilets then people have to be ready in the showers as well.

A Japanese court ruled Thursday that it was legal for the trade ministry to impose restrictions on a transgender official's use of women's restrooms, in a case in which she was seeking to freely use the washroom of her choice.

.....

In handing down the ruling, Presiding Judge Junichi Kitazawa said while the law protects the rights of people who want to live based on their gender identity, the ministry is responsible for creating a good working environment for all employees.

.....

The ministry does not restrict toilet choice for those who have changed their gender on the census register. However, a prerequisite for such a change is undergoing sex change surgery, which the official did not undergo due to health reasons.

This court decision makes sense to me.

It mentions correctly, that the employer is responsible for ALL employees - there is no justification to give preference to one 'special needs' employee who is insisting to use any restroom s/he likes and ignores the feelings of all other employees - who are clearly the majority and who identifiy themselves clearly either as male or as female.

You have no right to use freely the restroom of your choice. You are in a hurry, you decide to enter the male restroom using the urinal and next time you feel you need more than that you enter the female restroom - this is not acceptable.

According to the present valid gender registration, this person is male - and not a woman.

Biologically this person has male organs vs. medical certificates that her mindset qualifies him/her as a woman.

Therefore it cannot be said that this person is a woman only. The existence, the presence of male organs cannot be denied and ignored.

So what? Just my opinion, but this person is neither a man or a woman, but somehow between.

The only reasonable solution in such a situation I see, acceptable for everybody in this office, is to make sure that there is ONE restroom available on the same floor which is marked 'for everybody' - and this person should use it and stop complaining.

I think, it's not fair to force this person - who is a long time employee and obviously working fulltime without causing otherwise trouble - to use a restroom on different floors far away from her desk in a large office building. Somehow discriminating.

Nowadays in Japan, many department stores, concert and exhibition halls, public parks, hotels, railway stations etc. offer restrooms for men, women AND one larger toilet 'for everybody' - maybe the best way to go.

You are trans, wheelchair user, caretaker with an elderly person, mother/father with small children etc. - use the 'for everybody' toilet.

Identity is a two-way street - I can walk around telling the whole world I identify as Japanese (and I have a pretty good claim to do so - over half my life here, fluent Japanese etc) but if the Japanese don't accept me as Japanese then so be it - I'm not Japanese and no amount of protesting will see otherwise.

Sorry but that is a poor analogy. "Japanese" is a nationality and if you take citizenship (i.e., a legal thing and not a medical procedure), you are undeniably Japanese. It has nothing to do with your eye or hair colour and crucially, has nothing to do with whether people "accept" you. Conversely, if you look Japanese and were born here but do not have citizenship, you are not Japanese.

The conflict this story is talking about is whether people who may biologically be men should be recognized as the women they identify as in women-only spaces. This is a far more complex issue. I bet most women would be uncomfortable on finding an unknown woman convincingly disguised as a man in a women's toilet. People who look like men aren't supposed to be in women's toilets. Such woman may pose zero threat to other toilet users, but would still put many women on the defensive.

cisgender

Where did it become acceptable to label heterosexual as this word?

A word a factual word exists but it seems the non heterosexual gave themselves a tittle and are very vocal if others give them one the8 do not like.

But they and others seem fine labeling other with the above.

This word was not created by those it targets but by those of the Transgender community toward others.

So please use the correct term and not this made up word

After reading the majority of these posts, it seems that transphobia is alive and well.

We as foreigners living in Japan should be able to empathize with people that are being discriminated and segregated against. Jumping on the band wagon of intolerance and ignorance seems to be easy option.

Can't we just have to each their own and just move on?

S

AttilathehungryToday 01:03 pm JST

GirlInTokyo; you are missing the point. It is illegal to follow ANYONE around YELLING. It matters not what their ethnic background is, or what you are yelling. It is the yelling that is wrong, not the words.

It does matter. Because racial abuse and abuse of sexual minorities is a particular problem. I will bet you my next paycheck that you have never been followed by someone yelling abuse at you due solely to because you are a white cisgender man (assuming you are one). But every person of color, every LGBTQIA person, has been harassed on multiple occasions due to their race or sexuality, and many of us have also been physically and/or sexually assaulted by those who are, at first, only yelling.

This happens so often, in fact, that we come to expect it every time we leave the house, and we mentally prepare for it. We even think of ways to mitigate the danger we are in, for example, by not dressing the way we want to dress, or avoiding certain areas.

It can be so bad that people don't even want to leave their homes. That is why there are special laws on the books to protect minorities - that is, protect them from abuse by the majority. Hate crime laws are a necessity.

And frankly speaking, the kind of rhetoric displayed by the people here is demonstrative of why that is so. The disgusting comments here show exactly how hateful people can be towards those who are different.

And here I am over here, thrilled my nuclear button is downright minuscule.

P. SmithToday 12:53 pm JST

People who speak out about being transracial get cancelled by the very people vociferously advocating for trans rights. Another reason we don’t have conversations anymore. It’s unfortunate and harmful to society.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not well informed on trans racial identities, so I can't speak about it.

But I will say that yes, there is prejudice even within the ranks of those who have themselves experienced discrimination and oppression. They should know better.

@Antiquesaving

Different terms, one relates to gender and one relates to sexuality. Different concepts. One could be cisgender and homosexual for instance, or transgendered and heterosexual.

I wonder if this whole issue could have been avoided if instead of demanding entry into women’s spaces, transgender women could have asked for more multi-access toilets.

It’s one thing to demand equal access to necessary facilities, and quite another to demand feigning of disbelief.

@girl_in_tokyo,

Great posts! Agree totally.