B-25 bombers to fly over Ohio to honor historic air raid on Japan

Some of the posts in here play down the damage achieved by the raid. Actually In Yokosuka, at least one bomb from the B-25 piloted by Lt. Edgar E. McElroy struck the nearly completed Japanese aircraft carrier Ryūho, forcing its launch to be delayed until November. This prevented the ship from taking part at Midway and other operations through the summer of 1942. Needless to say, it also gave the Americans a huge boost in morale --- more so than the much more important victory at Midway, because the details of that battle were kept under wraps for security reasons.

I for one do honor the brave young men who risked their lives, and many who lost their lives, bombing Japan into submission. The fact that civilian casualties are always horrible doesn't take away from the fact that what they did was necessary. At some point, civilians who refuse to control their own government become the authors of their own misfortune. Recently there's a tendency for some people to try to paint Japan in a more benign light 70 years after the war, but this is ridiculous and entirely ahistorical. I wonder how many of them would like to go back to that human soul crushing military dictatorship if they had a time machine. By the way, I'm not America (or Japanese).

predictably, a few posters here react with histrionics without reading the story.

The raid being honoured here is the famous Doolittle raid which did little material damage and as far as I know, resulted in no Japanese deaths. However it lifted the spirits of Americans after months of setbacks beginning with the sneak attack on Pearl Harbour.

@utosra

"I`m merely quoting former Nieman Fellow at Harvard, James M. Scott."

True, but you left out his conclusion:

“…the Doolittle raid was a pinpick. But, as history has shown, those 16 bombers delivered a disproportionate punch—leading America to celebrate its first victory of the war, the Chinese to mourn a quarter-million dead, and the Japanese to blunder into defeat at Midway.”

Indeed, the Doolittle raid was part of a series of episodes that led to Japan's defeat, something ALL of us - including today's generation of Japanese - have reason to celebrate.

From the US point of view, the Doolittle Raider attack was the first counter strike against an enemy who was previously untouchable at home. It happened about 4 months after the Pearl Harbor attack. The effect was largely symbolic with little real damage caused to the enemy. We are taught in the US that this turned the tide of war in the Pacific, casting doubts about the Japanese military ability to protect the home islands and showing Americans that the enemy wasn't untouchable. None of the aircraft made it back home. Most crashed in China with 1 landing in Russia where the crew was imprisoned for a year. Compared to the Japanese military at the time, the USA military was outdated. All the crews of the aircraft knew this attack was a 1-way trip.

The USAF Museum at WPAFB is amazing. Spent 5 days there a few years ago looking at everything they have on display and speaking with the different museum workers. If you love aircraft, it probably has the best examples of all US military aircraft in the world - from a replica of the Wright flier through to predator drones with everything in-between. One hanger of missiles and space-based monitoring systems as well. During my visit about 5 guys were gathered around the SR-71 talking. As an aeronautical engineer, I was curious and joined the group to listen. They had been maintenance crews for this type of aircraft an were sharing a few stories. None of them knew how fast or how high the plane could go. That was secret even from them.

Dayton is also where the Wright Brothers lived and worked. There are a number of other National Park Service locations around town protected for their work. I've walked the field where they flew in circles about 4-6 meters off the ground to learn aircraft control. Their bicycle shop is also saved as a national landmark. We always hear about Kitty Hawk, NC as the place they first flew, but that is where they did the first real testing, not where they lived and perfected flight, such as it was.

Doolittle created aircraft flight instrumentation in the 1930s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Doolittle#Instrument_flight which is the basis for how aircraft are still flown today. No longer would pilots have to flight only when visibility allowed, thanks to his introduction of the artificial horizon and directional gyroscope.

Before the Doolitle raid, the Japanese civilian population saw war as only happening in foreign countries, and thus enthusiastically supported Japan's military campaign overseas, horrific as it was. It was thus crucial for the Allies to bring the war to the Japanese people on their home turf for the psychological effect. The Doolitte Raid did this.

Post-surrender in both Japan and Germany were astoundingly successful. That would have never happened had not both those countries be punished by relentless bombings. The WW1 surrender, by contrast, was a failure, because the German homeland never experienced the horror of war. So when Hitler launched the new adventure a short while later, the German people went along with it. The Allies didnt want to see a repeat of this.

For those saying the Dolittle Raid was a war crime for killing innocent people.

I guess the unprovoked & extremely cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor was just a miscommunication?

They struck first, they killed innocent people, service members. At the time we were NOT, repeat NOT at WAR with Japan.

The article is about the commemoration of the Doolittle Raid, not others. Period.

In WW2 all sides committed war crimes by bombing civilian targets...

The real damage was to the prestige of the Japanese Navy who let the US task force get within bombing distance of the mainland. Initially the Japanese didn't understand where the land based B25s came from.

In an instant the satisfaction of the Pearl Harbor attack was forgotten and Japan realized they were vulnerable. Japan's military dictatorship with support from the emperor exposed their own people to a war with the US. They had seen how bombers were used in Europe to devastating effect. They knew what could happen after the Pearl harbor attack and went ahead.

tinawatanabe: "It was the time the West was colonizing the entire world."

Ah, that's right -- you believe Japan was DEFENDING Asia by massacring more than 10 million people!

"McArther realized Japan was not bad and made testimony in front of US Joint-Congress that Japan was only defending."

No, McArther realized that the Japanese were easily mollified and duped, and that the real coming threat was from Russia and Communism, so he claimed islands and more on behalf of Japan so that the US could expand their presence further inland to hold the Red Menace at bay.

Japan should not have attacked Pearl Harbor if they didn't want what would come later. It was not "self-defense". Not one bit. Anyone who thinks so does a major disservice to the Japanese who died, as well as to the countless other Asians and those who fought Japan and ended its tyranny. And modern Japan has the US to thank.

Warrior onanism

@M3M3M3 ... excellent comment! You've stated the fact which many people try to ignore. Bottom line is that Japan were the instigators of the war and paid the price for it!

CH3CHO: "Targeting civilians is a war crime."

Good thing the Doolittle Raid didn't, then.

"It does not matter who started the war or who won the war."

The instigator always says that... especially when also the loser. But they always forget, had they not started it, there would have been none of the attacks they mention. So yes, it very much does matter. And how can you mention the Geneva and Hague Conventions when Japan massacred MILLIONS, used them for chemical weapons testing with Unit 731 (including live vivisections), coerced women into sexual slavery, sometimes murdering them if they got pregnant, and forcing even Japanese off the Itoman cliffs in mass suicides? Ah, but you deny all of these things, don't you? Aren't you the one who said Unit 731 was a respected and well-known Japanese medical unit?

The winners in war get to commemorate their killings whereas the losers don't......or so it seems.

USA warned before first air raid. J gov't ordered Tokyo residents to evacuate. (Kyushu Sakai) And NHK radio program used to announce on coming air raid. Schools concentrated on evacuation drill. Before air raid, power companies shut down power. Air raids avoided to drool' bombs on Imperial Palace.

The Doolittle Air Raid is more symbolic than anything else. Only 16 B-25 bombers were involved and did little damage:

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/doolittle-leads-air-raid-on-tokyo

The now-famous Tokyo Raid did little real damage to Japan. Although the raid was materially but a poke, its psychological impact was monumental. It elevated the flagging American morale and destroyed the Japanese conviction that they were invulnerable to air attack, let alone their capital Tokyo. In their chagrin, the Japanese command hastily planned an attack on the American outpost at Midway - an attack whose failure would become the turning point of the war in the Pacific.

tinawatanabe: "The raids were on all over Japan and the number of victims were larger than by two nuclear bombs. The overnight raid on Tokyo killed more than 100,000 people and turned Tokyo into ashes."

This is about one raid. And in any case, none of the raids would have taken place if Japan had not sneak attacked the US at Pearl Harbor after pretending to want peace, and starting the war in the Pacific. Don't start something you don't want, and do NOT cry foul when you don't like the results.

@CH3CHO

Targeting civilians is a war crime. See Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention.

The Geneva convention protecting civilians was signed after the war, and Protocol I dealing with aerial bombardment and atomic weapons was only signed in 1977. Both are irrelevant in the context of the WW2. So let's have a look at the Hague Conventions of 1907 which codified the relevant international law in force at the time.

Article 25 of the Annex to both Hague Conventions (1899 and 1907) state the rules of war as being:

The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.

The question is therefore whether Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and others were defended towns. The answer is probably yes, meaning bombing them was not prohibited. The basic principle of international sovereignty and the interpretation of international law is that whatever is not explicitly prohibited is allowed.

Of course, you can credibly argue that targeting of civilian towns through aerial bombardment was always morally wrong and should have been made a war crime under international law (The League of Nations in 1938 thought is should be made a war crime), but the reality was that it wasn't a war crime as strictly defined by the conventions in force at the time. No Americans were ever prosecuted, and there is no sense within the credible corners of the international legal community that America escaped justice. It is what it is, or more correctly, it was what it was.

tinawatanabe, I don't know what books you have been reading but they are leading you a song and a dance of what really happened, try Googleing the accounts/items that you have commented on and you will find your self enlightened.

No different than the flights to commemorate the Battle of Britain in 2015 I suppose. I doubt there would be any appetite to commemorate the Dresden bombings... we have a conscience. :p

I doubt there would be any appetite to commemorate the Dresden bombings

Perhaps not in Britain, but people in Dresden do appear to commemorate the bombing of their own city. It's quite a contrast to the sort of creeping revisionism we see when it comes to Japan.

Over a thousand people took part in an organized walk to recall the perpetrators of Nazi crimes and the places where those crimes took place in Dresden. The group "Nazi-free Dresden", which put on the event, said the idea was to point out that the city was "part of the Nazi system and not its victim."

http://www.dw.com/en/dresden-commemorates-world-war-ii-bombing-anniversary/a-15740338

Can you imagine the outrage if Japan tried to have a commemerative flight to honor its pilots and crew lost in the war?

We should commemorate the attack on Pearl Harbor and see how much America likes that in return! These are the same group of people who worship nuclear weapons and are happy that they used them on Japan! They have no remorse or regret! I've lived among them and in their country for over a decade. Is this the country that you would trust your National Security in? Is this the country that's supposed to be an ally of Japan?

@M3M3M3

I note that you misleadingly cropped my original sentence. My actual sentence is as follows:

"In describing the damage, I`m merely quoting former Nieman Fellow at Harvard, James M. Scott. Mr. Scott is the author of Target Tokyo, which was a 2016 Pulitzer Prize finalist."

Never mind of Peal Harbor for now. This is Ohio history, not Hawaii or Japan. Ohio has right to commemorate whatever it wants. Unlike J Government, US did give enough fuel to go home.

@Fred, which one? About all I wrote here are from my War time memory.

@Fred:Japanese opinion magazines usually create WWII memorial issues periodically. About 500 pages. Maybe you can dig stories of B 24 and B29.

We should commemorate the attack on Pearl Harbor and see how much America likes that in return!

Your commemoration of the Pearl Harbor attack probably wouldn't cause much of a fuss US air shows often include Pearl Harbor bombing reenactments.

Japan underestimated the rebounding effort of the US was able to make during WWII. Yamamoto at least (yet not many others) had the wisdom to foresee this.

I haven't expected that 75-year-old bomber plane has its ability to fly. It took only 75 years to become innovative airplane such as stealth-type, sonic-speed-type and no-ladder one. What a wonderful innovation they are!

@Fred I was in the first year of a girls middle school when Japan lost war. I am healthy but older than Emperor. Don't you know Japanese live longer than any other country people?

CH3CHO: "Two wrongs do not make one right."

Says the guy who denies all atrocities committed by Japan and then deflects by saying others did wrong instead. You didn't answer my question about Unit 731 -- you said they were an esteemed medical unit who only did good, did you not? And you also deny the Rape of Nanking, no?

Air raids on Japan began on October 10, 1944, starting with the Naha 10/10 Air Raid, devastating more than 60 cities all across Japan by the end of the war. Of which, the Great Tokyo Air Raid on March 10, 1945 was the most destructive and tragic. More than 100,000 people are said to have been perished in a fire caused by incendiary bombs just over a single night..

So flying B-25 or any other aircraft that participated in the air raids to honor them in a high-profile fashion is like rubbing salt into the wound for the victimized citizens some of whom are still suffering from PTSD.

It is estimated that over 1000,000 Allied soldiers would have died in a ground invasion of Japan. This does not include the countless Japanese cilvilans that would have died. Japan was intent on never surrendering.... What other options were left?

US could have just gone home. . Japan had had no food no oil and had told US that wanted to surrender. But US did not accept Japan's surrender because US wanted to test newly created nuclear bombs on humanity.

Nothing more transparent or sadder than the Japanese right wingers that litter The Internet with their revisionist history

Read books.

Military objectives prior to the Korean-Vietnamese War era were to destroy an enemies means to resist, and destroy an enemies will to resist. This air raid and others and the use of atomic bombs were intended to destroy the will to resist. Unfortunately the idea was perceived as too effective and low intensity - long duration PC warfare, a better thing for business, was adopted.

Ohio must be warm next month. I think it will have many people visit there. Students will brush their knowledge of WWII history.

@utorsa

I`m merely quoting former Nieman Fellow at Harvard, James M. Scott. Mr. Scott is the author of Target Tokyo

You said it was a war crime, but those are your words, not a quote from the James M. Scott's article. Regardless of what the legal position is today after additional treaties and protocols, neither the American bombing raids or the dropping of the atomic bombs would have constituted war crimes in 1945. Indiscriminate aerial bombardment of cities was allowed under international law at the time. The only restriction was that you could not target cities that were completely undefended. The law reflected the fact that in an age of dumb bombs, all a pilot could do is press the release button from a few thousand feet and hope the bomb landed on something resembling a target. In fact, the League of Nations did actually pass a resolution in 1938 condemning aerial bombardment of civilians and calling for new regulations to be drawn up. This was partly in response to Japanese bombing of Chinese cities. No regulations were ever drawn up until after the war had ended.

I didn't misleadingly crop your comment @asdfgtr. I wasn't actually responding to you. I was replying to @utorsa.

As far as the sentence goes, I don't see how I've take you out of context in a misleading way. The damage was suffered by civilians, you seem to think targeting civilians was a war crime, you cite Scott in his description of damage suffered by civilians. If you think there was a war crime, I'd be interested to hear what you think it was.

Hope snow stops next month so people can enjoy watching sky parade.

@toshiko

Could you share your source of information? I'd like to educate myself more.

War is a terrible terrible thing. Remembrance is one thing but glorification should be avoided at all costs!!

kiyoshiMukai: "Tokyo fire bombing should be called a shame to humanity"

Lots of things should, particularly what the Japanese did in Asia. But this is not about that -- it is about the commemoration of the Doolittle Raid.

@toshiko by war time memory, do you really mean, you actually lived through the period? Wouldn't that make you around 80?

@JeffLee

Post-surrender in both Japan and Germany were astoundingly successful. That would have never happened had not both those countries be punished by relentless bombings.

America`s "punishment" of Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, Korea and Iraq with relentless bombings prove otherwise.

I also note that you misleadingly cropped my original sentence. My actual sentence is as follows:

"In describing the damage, I`m merely quoting former Nieman Fellow at Harvard, James M. Scott. Mr. Scott is the author of Target Tokyo, which was a 2016 Pulitzer Prize finalist."

Indeed, the Doolittle raid was part of a series of episodes that led to Japan's defeat, something ALL of us - including today's generation of Japanese - have reason to celebrate.

The Doolittle Raiders' strafing and murdering of primary school children provides nothing to celebrate and had nothing to do with Japan`s defeat.

@jansob1

"And if there were civilian casualties..."

Continued denial of facts.

But you and other denialists will continue to support the murderous "Empire" til the end of days. So get back in your black van and keep screaming about the glories of Nanjing and Bataan and Unit 731. And we'll keep celebrating the brave men who ground the Empire under their heels.

On the contrary, you are the only one here denying war crimes and supporting the murderous acts of "Empire". So get back in your Air Force Museum and keep screaming about the glories of The Philippine Genocide and Hiroshima and The Guatemala Syphilis Experiment. And we'll keep celebrating the brave women and children who died needlessly.

@smithinjapan

CH3CHO: "Targeting civilians is a war crime."

Good thing the Doolittle Raid didn't, then.

Demonstrably false:

http://www.historynet.com/aftermath-doolittle-raid-reexamined.htm

As Doolittle anticipated, the attack burned residences from Tokyo to Kobe. In 2003 Japanese historians Takehiko Shibata and Katsuhiro Hara revealed that pilot Travis Hoover alone destroyed 52 homes and damaged 14. One bomb blew a woman from the second floor of her house to land unhurt in the street atop a mat. In the same neighborhood 10 civilians died, some burning to death in collapsing houses. Pilots Hoover, Robert Gray, David Jones, and Richard Joyce accounted for 75 of the 87 fatalities. Jones’s attack claimed the most lives—27.

Gray strafed what he thought was a factory, complete with a rooftop air defense surveillance tower. But it was Mizumoto Primary School, where students, like many across Japan, attended half-day classes on Saturdays.

...According to materials only lately brought to light, the raid obliterated 112 buildings and damaged 53, killing 87 men, women, and children. Among 151 civilians seriously injured, one was a woman shot through the face and thigh while gathering shellfish near Nagoya. At least 311 others suffered minor injuries.

But thats just it, Mr Noidall, unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective the victors write history.

Did the US and the allies do "bad things", I have no doubt, and personally any time someone decides to pick up a gun rather than a pen or a phone to have a talk I think we are already on the wrong path, but that doesn't for one second mean that it makes it OK for anyone else to do wrong either.

Japan, like it or not, did bad things too, and because unlike Germany (well in the absolute majority) where people are humbly apologetic and for example you still have people defending Japan and denying wrong doing, even in this thread....

The instigator always says that... especially when also the loser.

Well said SmithinJapan.

zichiMAR. 21, 2017 - 01:44PM JST

Targeting civilians is a war crime. See Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention. It does not matter who started the war or who won the war.

Which country during the period 1930-1945 killed more civilians, Japan or America? How many Chinese were killed? How many POW's tortured and killed?

Two wrongs do not make one right.

Targeting civilians is a war crime.

It's none of Japan's business what we do in Ohio to commemorate our veterans. None.

Coming from Ohio, I agree completely. As well as it's none of my business or any other Americans if Japan honors its war dead and veterans.

Womp.

That Statement came about a long time after the bombs were dropped to justify them.

Real reason was a show of power to the russians Similar reason why the USA got involved in the European the theater to prevent Russia from claiming it.

Raids were not all over Japan. Japanese government ordered Tokyo residents to evacuate Tokyo residents many months ago. Raids was not unexpected as USA cautioned and NHK announcer warned on Radio. Just some areas in Tokyo. Unlike Japanese government that ordered young pilot to die after Pearl Harbor attack USG A pilots had enough fuel to go home.

Nothing more transparent or sadder than the Japanese right wingers that litter The Internet with their revisionist history

Tina Watanabe Lol.... There's always some of you scurrying around on this board

But utorsa's fantasy is laughable. 16 planes couldn't carry enough bombs to do a tenth of the damage he describes. He's slavishly parroting Japanese wartime propaganda.

jansob1's delusional fantasy is laughable. In describing the damage, I`m merely quoting former Nieman Fellow at Harvard, James M. Scott. Mr. Scott is the author of Target Tokyo, which was a 2016 Pulitzer Prize finalist. Here is the link to the quotes again:

http://www.historynet.com/aftermath-doolittle-raid-reexamined.htm

Can you imagine the outrage if Japan tried to have a commemerative [sic] flight to honor its pilots and crew lost in the war?

Sure. Actually, I bet the US and Hawaii would get involved so that proper respects could be show to the military men who did the actual fighting. In the US, we differentiate between a soldier fighting in a battle under orders and the government who ordered it.

All soldiers who didn't do something thought despicable at the time deserve our respect. I don't have any ill will towards the Japanese pilots that flew the mission at Pearl Harbor or the Japanese sailors on the carriers who supplied them.

I also don't think Pearl Harbor was a "sneak attack" - the USA forced Japan to do something as a way to get the American public behind the war. Our politicians knew we needed to enter the war, but without some attack against US interests, the population wouldn't allow it. FDR knew this.

We shouldn't forget the ways wars can be fought today is very different then the capabilities of fighting them 75 yrs ago. Taking out infrastructure is part of war. Back then, that was done by destroying as much as possible. These days a GPS guided smart weapon would be used to take out power generation plants, destroy runways, and all heavy machinery factories. Taking away the ability AND the will of the enemy to fight is what war is all about. The Japanese people have a very strong will.

Stephen BramellMAR. 21, 2017 - 04:49AM JST

For those saying the Dolittle Raid was a war crime for killing innocent people.

I guess the unprovoked & extremely cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor was just a miscommunication?

Targeting civilians is a war crime. See Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention. It does not matter who started the war or who won the war.

Doolittle`s Raid inflicted widespread damage and murdered innocent civilians including children. A reprehensible war crime.

http://www.historynet.com/aftermath-doolittle-raid-reexamined.htm

The American bomber squadron inflicted widespread damage in the target areas but also caused civilian deaths that included children at school...According to materials only lately brought to light, the raid obliterated 112 buildings and damaged 53, killing 87 men, women, and children. Among 151 civilians seriously injured, one was a woman shot through the face and thigh while gathering shellfish near Nagoya. At least 311 others suffered minor injuries.

As Doolittle anticipated, the attack burned residences from Tokyo to Kobe. In 2003 Japanese historians Takehiko Shibata and Katsuhiro Hara revealed that pilot Travis Hoover alone destroyed 52 homes and damaged 14. One bomb blew a woman from the second floor of her house to land unhurt in the street atop a mat. In the same neighborhood 10 civilians died, some burning to death in collapsing houses. Pilots Hoover, Robert Gray, David Jones, and Richard Joyce accounted for 75 of the 87 fatalities. Jones’s attack claimed the most lives—27.

Gray strafed what he thought was a factory, complete with a rooftop air defense surveillance tower. But it was Mizumoto Primary School, where students, like many across Japan, attended half-day classes on Saturdays.>

It is estimated that over 1000,000 Allied soldiers would have died in a ground invasion of Japan. This does not include the countless Japanese cilvilans that would have died. Japan was intent on never surrendering.... What other options were left?

Disgusting to "honor" and glorify an air raid that brutally murdered women and children. Reflects very badly on the organizers and the U.S. military.

Tokyo fire bombing should be called a shame to humanity

The effect was largely symbolic with little real damage caused to the enemy.

The raids were on all over Japan and the number of victims were larger than by two nuclear bombs. The overnight raid on Tokyo killed more than 100,000 people and turned Tokyo into ashes.

The Doolittle raid inflicted widespread damage and caused civilian deaths including children at school. Revisionist attempts to whitewash American war crimes and glorify the murder of children is morally reprehensible.

Japan had not sneak attacked the US at Pearl Harbor after pretending to want peace

US had prepared to destroy Japan after Japan won Japan-Russia War. By international law, it was US that attacked Japan first.

It was the time the West was colonizing the entire world. McArther realized Japan was not bad and made testimony in front of US Joint-Congress that Japan was only defending.

cruel enemy who have committed large-scale atrocities in China

China's fabrication. US and China were (and are) friends.