China pushes Japan with sea claims, trade threats

Bully tactics just dont work, either stunts like sending ships or making economic threats. Just makes China look silly and claims based on geology are just silly too. Borders are defined by reality not geography.

The stock prices of Japanese manufacturers are actually going up. Panasonic is up 1.44%. Both Honda and Canon are up 3.57%. Keep it up China. The sooner Japanese manufacturers get out of China the better. Higher wages and prices coupled with a slowing economy, that's China in a nutshell.

China’s latest effort to show resolve in the dispute was to announce it will submit to a United Nations commission a proposal spelling out its claims in the East China Sea, based on its definition of the limits of its continental shelf.

It's about time that either one of these countries submitted their claims to the UN. Get the UN involved and have the UN make a binding agreement to decide who ultimately "owns" these islands, along with the other one's that are in dispute.

It's times like this though where I would like to see the UN be allowed to take control over any disputed territory and allow neither country access until they both can learn to play nicely together!

Nationalistic pride does neither side any good. Jointly develop any natural resources that are available and strengthen the ties between the countries! Both would benefit greatly.

I hope some cooler heads soon prevail here.

The sooner Japanese manufacturers get out of China the better. Higher wages and prices coupled with a slowing economy, that's China in a nutshell.

House -- are you totally delusional? Did you read the article and not just react to the headline. China is Japan's #1 trading partner, and bilateral trade is almost $350 billion. Assuming $200 billion of that is Japanese goods sold in Japan, and you cannot possibly really want Japan to pull out of China. It is the market that ALL the Japanese cars companies are counting on for growth in the next decade. It is already over four times the size of the Japanese car market, and really just gaining steam. And, if any country fits your "higher wages and prices coupled with a slowing economy" description, it is Japan. Sorry to burst your bubble, but from a trade standpoint Japan needs China a LOT MORE than China needs Japan.

Unfortunately, the recent ITLOS case between Myanmar and Bangladesh showed that median line takes precedence when islands/territories overlap one another.

So if China's intention is to expand the EEZ, they need to submit her claim in regards to soverignty of Senkaku which is done by ICJ.

Japan should change gears setting up "Exit" strategy from China if China cannot guarantee the safety for business. The world business leaders will think twice before setting up business in China.

1)There are many countries that need Japanese manufacturing plants in friendly environment.

2)Do not put all eggs in one basket. Japan needs to think about 20 years risk avert strategy in foreign investment.

Most important thing here is make sure Japanese business does not leave anything behind in manufacturing plant in China. NADA.

When you are pulling troops from combat area, you want to make sure you do not leave any weapons behind to wrong hands.

1)There are many countries that need Japanese manufacturing plants in friendly environment.

Globalwatcher -- sure, but you are missing the key point. Who will BUY all the cars that these plants can produce if they are moved out of China and Japan closes up shop there? Japan desperately needs access to China's growing middle class, since its own economy is shrinking. Add up ALL the other emerging Asian countries and you still don't have a market one-half the size of China. China has 80 cities with a population of over 1 million people alone. Trust me, Toyoda-san is pleading with the govenment to stop the sabre-rattling, which Ishihara foolishly started, and let business get back to normal in China. "Exit strategy" -- LOL.

This days everything sold in Japan is Chinese. Thats the only reason why China hasnt halted trade with Japan.

It's only the middle classes and the super-wealthy who have real spending power in China, and that's only a small percentage of the entire population - so China needs Japan to buy from it. Let's see how long China holds out if Japan stops buying. Actually, Japan should not even bother coming back.

It is a good move to bring the proposals to the UN, but I believe China will only ignore any UN ruling that goes against them.

Whether you like it or not, nations in this 21st century can not become rich and prosperous without the 1.5 billion Chinese! This is true for Japan and the USA! The question for Post-WWIi Japan is How long can the USA be of more benefit for Japan than China! At this moment countries like Korea, Taiwan and ASEAN countries are already shifting their economic policies.... I know it is hard for a US colony like Japan to rethink their future, but it is vital if Kimigayo still wants to be nation of significance at the end of the 21st century!

The sooner Japanese manufacturers get out of China the better. Higher wages and prices coupled with a slowing economy, that's China in a nutshell.

'herefornow' is correct in your response.

china;s #1 trading partner is eu, #2: usa, #3: japan #4:africa i posted earlier at another thread that japan has over 10,000 companies/enterprises inside china. if there is a trade war/slowdown, both will be affected, but japan would suffer much more, based on the above data alone.

u must also remember that a japan's official threatened korea with some economic sanction a couple weeks ago when japan had some verbal battles with korea.

When you are pulling troops from combat area, you want to make sure you do not leave any weapons behind to wrong hands.

you can move your documents but it's not easy moving machinery. and now 1000 chinese fishing boats go to Senkaku, let's see how japanese gov action

Sorry to burst your bubble, but from a trade standpoint Japan needs China a LOT MORE than China needs Japan.

The question of whether China needs Japan is irrelevant. The only issue is whether Japanese companies would have had any long term success in China. Japanese companies would have eventually been locked out when enough technologically had passed to their Chinese "partners." It happened to Kawasaki and its high speed rail business. It happened to Fellowes and its shredder business. It even happened to Sukhoi and its fighter aircraft business. Short term gain for little to no long term prospects. Japan should say no thanks.

China’s latest effort to show resolve in the dispute was to announce it will submit to a United Nations commission a proposal spelling out its claims in the East China Sea, based on its definition of the limits of its continental shelf.

Crack on. I'm looking forward to China's reaction when the UN refuses this proposal. Sooner China realizes that they don't own the entire Far East the better.

@house kawasaki knew about some of the consequences just as other japanese companies in china. this is part of the cost of doing business. imo, if japan companies move out of china its effects would actually be good for china as it must then accelerate much more innovation to fill the vacuum.

Japan learnt a lot from China during the Han/Tang dynasties: it learned to write (Kan-Ji) and to count, it learned to make a capital like Heian-Kyo, it learned to be a prosperous civilization. Of course it adapted all these learnings in a Japanese way... The question is How much can Jspsn still learn from the USA?

1)There are many countries that need Japanese manufacturing plants in friendly environment.

Globalwatcher -- sure, but you are missing the key point. Who will BUY all the cars that these plants can produce if they are moved out of China and Japan closes up shop there? Japan desperately needs access to China's growing middle class, since its own economy is shrinking.

@herefornow, that's my point. China has not realized yet that Japan has been providing jobs for Chinese. Without Japanese jobs, there will be no spendable income among Chinese consumers. As my understanding, there are now 5000 Japanese business settings in China. That's a huge impact to Chinese economy. No jobs, no income, then what these Chinese consumers will demand to Beijing? Another riots against their own government?

Who's really going to feel it? Your predictions are very off base.

Lets look at the real monsters. The people in the background pulling the strings. The so-called Deep Pockets. You have to imagine how this is going to play out and most importantly WHO pays for it. After all, it is your tax money.

It starts with sanctions. They go after economics first. For most of us, we simply imagine..."Okay, no more business with China". No more 100 yen shops. No, the rabbit hole goes deeper.

Currently Japan has almost all of it's nuclear reactors down. Your are importing LNG almost daily now. How is the LNG getting here? By ship of course, but what's the fastest route? The answer is popping up in your head now. It will cost millions of dollars to redirect those ships.

It' will cost millions more to send armed escorts to make sure the LNG gets here. Military operations cost money, especially naval operations.

In conclusion, Japan's government will turn on the reactors saying that it's too risky to get LNG here past China.

The result is BIG Nuclear Energy wins despite all the protests and the promises by Japan's current government to phase out Nuclear Energy.

Once the reactors are back on. A new set of politicians will take over in order to renew relations with China.

All the while the people of Japan will suffer at the gas pump, taxes and with no competition everything will be inflated. No, only Japan will pay. You can't hurt the Chinese any worse than they are now making Apple products.

Japanese politics are always indirect. You must focus on what is Japan's true goal. What is it that Japan always needs. The answer is RESOURCES. This is in fact a non-military style invasion that wil lead to war.

@global. u are not seeing the whole picture. eu perhaps represents about 25% of china's external trades, usa is slightly below 20% and japan is perhaps 15%(?) and africa is maybe 10%, and the rest goes to other countries. japan's trade with china is about 25%, iirc. as i said both will be much affected, as japan will lose much of the internal china's market! those profits are lost, as they are usually repatriated to japan to provide jobs in japan. both will lose but japan will lose much more, and as i said any vacuum will be Immediately filled by chinese companies, and innovation will be much more accelerated.

China is a mess, the government in Beijing is just stalling for time, since they can not agree on a new leader. What is the easiest way to distract the masses of China?? Claim that the Japanese are trying to invaded some stupid islands, rocks out by Taiwan?? This is the oldest trick in the book, just like during the Korean war, the Chinese helped unite their country by starting a war on the Korean peninsula. Claim that after the Japanese, now the Americans were on the Korean peninsula so they invaded South Korea with not only the crappy North Koreans but with millions and millions of poor Chinese, using human waves. Here China not only united their people against ONE common enemy, but they also helped lower their population by giving young men sticks to go against American machine guns. This is no BS. Ask anybody who was in the Korean war, human waves of Chinese and the Americans would shoot and shoot and shoot and they just kept coming and coming, this is what China will do to unite their country and now they are trying something similar but with lots of fishing boats going towards the Senkaku islads. IMHO

Furthermore, herefornow, please check what is going in USA. The Middle Class Americans feel hostility against unfair Chinese trade practices over the years. There will be more policy changes in trade against China. If you see Obama's record, he has completed over 200 unfair trade issues against China, and he won every single one of them. Japan needs to start doing the same. .

China is a mess, the government in Beijing is just stalling for time, since they can not agree on a new leader.

which leader? the president ??

herefornowSep. 18, 2012 - 07:52AM JST

The sooner Japanese manufacturers get out of China the better. Higher wages and prices coupled with a slowing economy, that's China in a nutshell.

House -- are you totally delusional? Did you read the article and not just react to the headline. China is Japan's #1 trading partner, and bilateral trade is almost $350 billion.

Herefornow, no, House isn't delusional, and your own post contains a single word that explains why, "bilateral". China gains as much as Japan from the trade. China's engaged in an economic war with the U.S., and isn't about to try and wage a war on two fronts by cutting off Japan. ... and even if they did it wouldn't hurt Japan that much, there are cheaper markets opening up in Asia, like Myanmar, and more developed areas like Thailand... all China would do is hurt itself. This is just more useless bluster from China.

Politically, I don't see either nation coming to an agreement.

Trade ties will be cut, and I do believe it will cause problems to both countries, but Japan more.

However, cutting trade doesn't solve the problem at hand - the islands.

I really do hope that this doesn't turn out to be a war...it seems to be a lose-lose situation.

Lives lost, money wasted...the island issue still unresolved.

and even if they did it wouldn't hurt Japan that much, there are cheaper markets opening up in Asia, like Myanmar, and more developed areas like Thailand... all China would do is hurt itself. This is just more useless bluster from China.

incorrect. tell me if the population of myanmar+thailand can match the popn of china. lol. thats 1.3 billion ppl, and just for the car markets alone, japan would lose much more.

In an outright war on the Senkaku islands, I doubt that the US military will win? Taiwan and probably also Koreas and ASEAN countries will support China... Of course this gunboat diplomacy will benefit no one in the long run... Japan needs to reconsider its foreign policy...and needs a pan East Asian organisation like Germany needs the EU to protect it's interests!

mano2012

Out of the said 1.3 billion how many do you think can afford Japanese made goods? 40%? 30%? 20%?

The overall said Japanese products sold to mainland China are actually components that are required to manufacture other products that are exported overseas. So in shutting out Japanese components PRC is effectively shutting down their own supply chain making it impossible to export product hurting their own economy.

China's noisy hissy fits tend to come in waves. There were similar ones in October 2010. Last year, perhaps due to the big quake, there were few or none. And I have no doubts that there will be more, whether the issue is territorial or something else. This is one of the penalties -- along with intellectual property theft -- that a country pays for doing business with it.

@samurai a). china's middle class is over 500 million ppl ! b). if there is an interruption, e.g. japan companies exit china or suspend parts to china's plants, u will have this scenario:

there will be a Harsh or sudden trouble for the china plants. however, immediately, within weeks, they would find other suppliers from other companies within china (that will step up to fill the vacuum) or from other eu companies. dont underestimate china's own companies to innovate rapidly.

We have to analyze psychologial aspect of Chinese people's difficult-to-understand animosity against Japan. Geologically, China is a far bigger country than Japan and historicaly also China had been for long the champion of this area of the world. But the feudalistic empire of China fell and the country floundered for long while Japan which succeeded in modernization of the country prospered until recently overwhelming China. During this period of time, Japan invaded China in the same manner the western countries did for the purpose of exploitation. It was a big humiliation for them and they don't forget it.

This starting to evolve into a money war.

funny how the Chinese govt lets people protest other countries but when they protest their own govt they get run over with tanks.

Japan, when you fight with a pig (China) expect to get muddy

@mano2012: don't kid yourself

@schopenhauer. this whole thing would not have gone this far had it not for the gov of japan action to Buy the islands, in other words japan wanted to show its ww2 attitude.

@mano2012: don't kid yourself

tell me whatz on ur mind? ;)

Japan would just buy everything from taiwan :)

@debucho: you are the man :)).

But to be fair, majority of Chinese people don't care about this bullshit, they have to work hard to feed their family. This sh!t is government's doing to hide internal problems.

The spark that will set this off are the raven crazed Chinese trying to land on the islands again. China will find a excuse to attack, they'll be bounced back by Japanese and US forces and the US military will build a permanent radar base on the islands.

NO way China wins a foothold on the Pacific.

mano2012 if you are going to try to be the voice of reason for a country that denies its citizens human rights, allows piracy and is friends with Iran and North Korea, you have your work cut out for you.

Lets see what turns out of this threat but China is all about threats. The people in the mass demonstrations last weekend have lost their jobs, ruined their cities and for what? silly morons...now they are plaaying the economic card. nice

@ GregoryHaruko:

*"Taiwan and probably also Koreas and ASEAN countries will support China"**

You mean the same countries China has threatened with military force over the past 3 months?? Do you pay attention to the news?

Taiwan has already started negotiations with Japan over the islands to share fisheries and other resources.

And to be even fairer, I suspect those rioters were paid to RUIN THEIR OWN CITIES LoooooL

Otherwise they would have been run over by tanks, cut to death, kidneys removed etc ... the list goes on.

mano2012 if you are going to try to be the voice of reason for a country that denies its citizens human rights, allows piracy and is friends with Iran and North Korea, you have your work cut out for you.

im only interested in the current event situation, that is the spat btw china and japan.

Lets see what turns out of this threat but China is all about threats. The people in the mass demonstrations last weekend have lost their jobs, ruined their cities and for what? silly morons...now they are plaaying the economic card. nice

both will lose, but the reality is japan will lose money, everybody knows it, and even jp reprinted the statement from china in this story above.

as i mentioned, innovation will accelerate rapidly in china Regardless now if japan and china mend their troubles. to prove my point, u need to understand how cuba innovates, read the story below about iphone in cuba ;)

http://www.sfgate.com/technology/article/Cuban-ingenuity-in-the-iPhone-age-3866818.php

the moral of this story: when u r pressed for solutions, innovation and inventions will rise.

typo error: both will lose, but the reality is japan will lose money.

should be: both will lose, but the reality is japan will lose More.

well, if you call those knock-offs innovations ^_-

I don't think ill of Chinese people, but the stupidity of your government must be stopped. And you are going off topic, mano

Schopenhauer describes an important and accurate point. The Chinese do not have an easy way out of this latest predicament. The Japanese government, now understanding that the Chinese are willing to pull the economic card in order to win this "this is mine and yours is mine too" spat, should do the following:

Back off on this one, but of course while leaving the situation open for future discussions. This would give the Chinese the "face" they value so much.

Work on expanding trade with China.

Bolstered by their increased wealth from the expanded trade, and working even more closely with the U.S., expand their military to prepare for the likely imminent confrontation with China in future years.

Some of the previous posters were correct in that, currently, Japan needs China more than vice versa. But there is no need or use for Japan to try to damage China with economic threats. China's economy will eventually fall apart on its own due to internal issues, as the masses hit the streets and revolt against their dictatorship government.

mano2012: you are right only about one thing, Japan would lose more. But China is innovative? If you mean making it legal to pirate other idea and having such poor quality checks that food gets poisoned, then maybe.

Not to mention their partners (Iran, Russia, North Korea) and their communist government, and you can be the US will put them in their place if they start trying to colonize Asia.

well, if you call those knock-offs innovations ^_-

lol. thats a good one ;) i been following china's development for over 2 decades now, and in recent years: a. the number of scientific papers published by chinese scientists have increased tremendously, and its ranking has moved up rapidly. b. the #of scientists/engineers per 100,000 ppl has increased rapidly as well.

u need to read this book, btw; http://www.amazon.com/End-Cheap-China-Economic-Cultural/dp/111817206X

mano2012

there will be a Harsh or sudden trouble for the china plants. 2. however, immediately, within weeks, they would find other suppliers from other companies within china (that will step up to fill the vacuum) or from other eu companies. dont underestimate china's own companies to innovate rapidly.

Guess what, SK had been trying to do that for decades with little to no luck. That is why they run a huge trade defecit against Japan. They tried with disastrous results due to poor quality substitutes.

Some of the previous posters were correct in that, currently, Japan needs China more than vice versa. But there is no need or use for Japan to try to damage China with economic threats. China's economy will eventually fall apart on its own due to internal issues, as the masses hit the streets and revolt against their dictatorship government.

The vast numbers of recent protests are results of economy failing as bubble have burst. China's GDP growth is mainly supported by capital investments and real estate while the % of consumer spending as a percentage of GDP is decreasing.

The situation is clearly in the hands of the Chinese government. At this time Japan is not playing any more cards - quietly couting on their own peoples' tolerance and patience while global media run reports over the riots possibly escalating beyond anti-Japan sentiment. As Japan is pretty much unlikely to retract their planned purchase, all eyes on whether China is going to move towards forcefully containing the situation regardless which in itself is risky considering serious doubts to be raised domestically. Should they alternatively choose to become more aggressive and belligerent just to keep their own people happy and questionless (which is what they currently seem to be geared towards doing), world diplomacy is destined to enter unknown and unprecedented territories for everyone including the US. The realistic outcome may be somewhere in the middle where China will gradually contain the situation but will also implement strong economic sanctions against Japan. Rather painful for Japan but inevitably the price that needs to be paid if Japan remains keen to do business with/in China, a country which is clearly not next new America.

@debucho your info is not up to date ;) china's is progressively and agressively moving out of the previous and current phases. granted there are still many piracy.

but did u know that the shenzhen gov discouraged low-level manufacturing, and their policies did its job by Wiping out thousands of low-level manufacturing, and in turns new generation value-added products rise from them.

another example: alibaba's revenues now exceeds that of amazon and ebay combined!

and about innovation, u might want to read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/opinion/friedman-in-china-we-dont-trust.html

Guess what, SK had been trying to do that for decades with little to no luck. That is why they run a huge trade defecit against Japan. They tried with disastrous results due to poor quality substitutes.

lol. u r underestimating other countries. no country, e.g. japan, has a monopoly on innovation. lol.

mano until China changes their friends, (Russie, N. Korea, Iran) they will always be under the close watch of the US, which will limit thier growth and apparent world domination aspirations

lol @debucho the u.s. is in trouble on her own with its huge $trillions debt and economic problems. so tell me how the u.s. will limit china;s growth? give me some examples.

Wow. the mods are out in full force getting rid of anything that isn't pro Japan. That speaks volumes.

You mean all the death threats and ill wishes to all the pro Japan are deleted? And this is bad how?

mano2012

I haven't underestimated only posted the fact or are you saying PRC has a better supply chain management system than SK who had better penetration to the global market for the past thirty years.

Big words does not match actual facts.

One thing that the world will take away from this whole messy issue (and the other island quarrels in East Asia as well) is that the whole region is not as stable as we thought it was. This will redirect a lot of investment away towards South America and South Asia. Nationalist quarrels and sable rattling might help the current leadership in each respective country in the short term to gain on the inner political front, but it is another nail in the coffin for Japan. Nobody likes to make business with nationalists and backward-thinking countries. I think the Japanese are not fully aware of the image they have now in the Western world. Most people can't tell Japanese and Chinese apart, anyway - and the public support for the little animosities of these bitter old men is about zero. The US should not, and will not support either side in this.

@samurai i didnt imply that All enterprises related to japan will find solutions, i dont know what % will continue etc, but for sure a good % will find solutions within weeks or a few months, and the remaining will just be gone out of business. tough luck. however, certain industries such as cars, chemicals etc will be immediately filled by other manufacturers from china, sk, usa, germany etc.

mano2012Sep. 18, 2012 - 09:40AM JST . this whole thing would not have gone this far had it not for the gov of japan action to Buy the islands, >in other >words japan wanted to show its ww2 attitude.

Totally wrong. TheJ-govt bought the islands to pre-empt Tokyo Governor Ishihara from bulding on them, an act that Japan felt would escate tensions with China. Well now we know that effort was useless, China is deliberately provoking Japan into s military conflictand doing nothing but escalating the problem. Japan should go ahead and build a miiliary outpost on the island.

if the japan gov cant reign in own one of your governors, i.e. ishihara, then there is something structurally wrong with it, and thats why noda will fall, for it found the wrong solutions in the first place.

btw, china has issued warning to its citizens against further violence, u can read it at japantimes.co

mano: China is not even on the same level as the US economically or militarily. China knows to watch its step not to make the US angry. They would get smacked on the nose and they know it.

typo: reign in own = reign in On

mano: a country has a limit to its growth if it does not allow its people human rights, and is friends with north korea and iran

@debucho. but u said to Limit its growth. it's got nothing to do with the size of china's os us's economies. as i said, give me some examples as to how the u.s. will do it.

but the current situation has got nothing to do with human rights. as i see it, china has still many problems such as pollution and human rights, but it has improved year by year. i have seen many expats blog in china who clearly say that ppl in china are practically living quite freely.

ppl in china are practically living quite freely. as long as they dont protest THEIR OWN government, right? Then they get run over by tanks. Never mind the govt regulating what they see on the internet.

if you are arguing that people in china are free, then I think the educated discussion is over. you want examples of US limiting China? Why do you think China has not put a tank on the Senkaku Islands? Answer: they are afraid of what the Us would do

but huge countries need a strong gov, i tend to agree that gov of china needs to loosen up more, but if u look at history themain reason the old u.s.s.r. fell because gorbachev was weak and he was pushing for perestroika etc too fast. his ppl perceived his gov as weak and they started to break away. even small countries such as the old yugo was held in 1 piece by a strong man tito, and once he was gone the country broke apart.

Japan does not want to jump into the pig pen with China, and is struggling to deal with this in a civilized manner. Unlike the uncivilized neighbors Korea and China. Japan is going to get muddy if they step down to these levels.

there is always limitations to freedom. in the uk, ppl's movements are watched/recorded by thousands of cameras, and in the usa cameras are now installed in more and more places. ppl in china now travel to many countries and learn about other countries's cultures and systems and return home to improve their lives; the china gov knows that and encourages them to travel more.

btw, u r diverting the issue of Limiting economic growth. who said anything about war btw china and japan?? u were saying the usa can limit china's economic growth. tell me how it will do that. give me some concrete ways. u havent shown them yet.

mano2012

if the japan gov cant reign in own one of your governors, i.e. ishihara, then there is something structurally wrong with it, and thats why noda will fall, for it found the wrong solutions in the first place.

Maybe in mainland china but in free democratic nation the local government is give certain freedom where the federal government cannot intervene.

Japan does not want to jump into the pig pen with China, and is struggling to deal with this in a civilized manner. Unlike the uncivilized neighbors Korea and China. Japan is going to get muddy if they step down to these levels.

lol. the chinese ppl have their valid points to demonstrate and some of them went overboard, u cant control everybody. in japan there are verbal abuses against minorities such as korean and chinese. verbal abuse is a Form of violence. same difference.

It's beginning to look like 1936 all over again, but this time the results may be different.

Maybe in mainland china but in free democratic nation the local government is give certain freedom where the federal government cannot intervene.

the japan gov, i.e. noda did not find the right solutions in the first place. u mean a gov (tokyo gov) has more jurisdictions over the "Federal" gov?? lol oh yeah. in the usa, the governor would have been called to visit the whitehouse in order to have a nice little chat ;)

that was the point.

Sinking a couple of cargo ships coming out of Chinese ports would pretty much shut all of China down!

China will definitely financially destroy Japan. Thanks Ishihara.

behold other distinguished countries. China is a bully.

Someone should tell me why is Japan positioning their plants and factories in China. Is it because of cheap labor or nearness to raw material? If its any of the above, there are many options. 1: Malaysia 2: Africa 3: other Asia countries that loves Japan more than china Why building a house near an enemy? I just don't get it.

Someone should clarify me please

mano2012

the japan gov, i.e. noda did not find the right solutions in the first place. u mean a gov (tokyo gov) has more jurisdictions over the "Federal" gov?? lol oh yeah. in the usa, the governor would have been called to visit the whitehouse in order to have a nice little chat ;)

I guess you are not that bright on how local/federal governments work. Let me explain. The Tokyo municipal government is allowed buy any property when the owner is willing to sell. There are many examples where US state government had set up office here in Japan to promote their state to Japanese companies. The federal government has no oversite to those actions and the best they can do is to chat with the governor which Nod did with Ishihara, Noda cannot force Ishihara from purchasing the land if he did it is "MISUSE of POWER" something I guess PRC citizens do not understand the concept.

Japanese companies shut China factories

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/cecf3b7e-00be-11e2-8197-00144feabdc0.html#axzz26mvy8uVd

There are many weblinks like this are now circulating in all over the world. The world leaders are reading this and have a second thoughts about China. That's not good at all for China.

u misunderstood my point. apparently u dont understand how the u.s. gov works. i was not talking about technicalities, rather about how a strong gov should handle its policies and priorities. in the usa, the said governor would have understood his superior's (wh/president) agenda and authority in the interest of the whole country. apparently noda failed to do that. i bet many ppl in many countries do not appreciate's ishihara's behavior either.

it's not looking good http://www.petapixel.com/2012/09/17/japanese-camera-factories-may-be-at-risk-amidst-chinese-protests

as i said, u would now see many camera companies from china, germany/eu to start grabbing the markets in whatever countries they could get into.

The Chinese government thinks they could survive a trade war with Japan? Both countries lose....the only difference is that angry, out of work Japanese won't burn their government down. The Chinese will. The Communists should be more careful....in the end it will be their head on a platter.

mano2012

You have no idea how US governors work do you. Bloomberg will gladly give the middle finger salute to Obama if it did not fit with the local government''s interest. So did the Arazona governor who passed a law against the federal government's demand which is now being handled at the supreme court.

but i do. over the decades i have seen many cases come and gone, btw states and fed gov in the u.s. the case of az and wh is not the same thing as the one ishihara is causing not only a big headache but a possible conflicts that have military implication btw japan and china. u r comparing apples and oranges.

SamuraiBlue

I guess you are not that bright on how local/federal governments work. Let me explain. The Tokyo municipal government is allowed buy any property when the owner is willing to sell.

It was incredibly stupid of Ishihara to just go ahead and purchase the islands without granting the permission from the central government as well as from the people.

Ishihara went ahead and did it anyway without any actual planning whatsoever, without considering the risks of what he's doing, and now thanks to Ishihara Japan is in this whole mess now.

Well said....... ref :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19620114 Analysts said that China, which was known for being a low-cost manufacturing base, has seen a steady rise in labour costs in recent times, negating a big advantage it had on other countries in the region.

They said that the protests could result in some Japanese firms starting to look beyond China for further expansion.

"They might want to consider expanding manufacturing operations in Thailand or in other nations that are more welcoming towards Japanese investment," said Shaun Rein of China Market Research Group.

He warned that such moves might have an impact on China's economic growth and also on the overall trade ties between Asia's two biggest economies.

"The trade relations are going to be damaged by the continuing protests, for sure."

Japan certainly would suffer more than China, think it over and you will know it. Japan will more and more rely on US and become a de facto colony of US, a road far from being a normal country.

suffer for what? The market is huge for Japan...Please Japan look elsewhere...station your plants and manufacturing solution in thailand, malaysia africa and others

Import and export is only 5% of GDP for Japan. Not trading with China does not hurt the Japanese economy as a whole. Japanese multinationals can go elsewhere to survive without China or they can do whatever they please. Japan should focus on trading with other more stable countries and consider developing domestic economy, which LDP is talking more about recently.

It seems that some people think the economy is very good in Japan now.

Trade threats? Japan will ALWAYS make better products than China!

Don't live in the good old days, Japanese products is no longer competitive.

I am so sad that the many Japanese do not understand that Kimigayo can not be prosperous and strong in the future centuries without the help of the Chinese Dragon. US' minister Panetta is now 'promising to cooperate' with the Chinese Military, because he knows that the US Military can not beat their Chinese counterpart if it comes to an armed conflict on the Senkaku islands (with many Asian nations like Taiwan and Korea - and overseas Chinese people chosing the Chinese side and making 'communist' China look like a fighter for Asian justice !). I know that in the long run Japan should make its own strong military force (like before...), but it can only do that if it gets the permission of their Asian neighbours... More than ever Japan needs an East-Asian Union, like Germany needs the European Union to become strong and prosperous !

tomokiSep. 18, 2012 - 01:24PM JST

Import and export is only 5% of GDP for Japan. Not trading with China does not hurt the Japanese economy as a whole. Japanese multinationals can go elsewhere to survive without China or they can do whatever they please. Japan should focus on trading with other more stable countries and consider developing domestic economy, which LDP is talking more about recently.

It is obvious that poster do not understand about the inter dependence of trade. Japan has more than 100 millions of mouth to feed. It has very limited fertile land for farming and seafood stock is declining. Nuclear radiation and Tsunami concern had badly effected Japanese food stocks supply. To be honest, Japanese consumers prefer to eat the food from oversea instead of locally produced. For example eating Japanese fish is not very safe comparing with Canadian or Russian fish. It is also true for Rice which come from Thai or Australia. I will sacrifice the qualify over concern of safety.

Japan is a matured market and high input cost for running business. It has been recession since 1991 and it has never fully recovered. There are very little hopes for more growth. As a current economic climate, China needs Japan technology and Japan needs China market for feeding more than 100 millions mouth. If there is no market, there is no profit and economic growth. China has 1.3 billion consumers and vast land. It is also a back yard neighbor of Japan. Even we combine all emerging markets such as Russia, Brazil and south east Asia, the market is still smaller than China. There is no other explosive market like China in this world except India. However India infrastructure, efficiency and productivity are still far away behind than China.

Whether they like it or not, both Japan and China are economically intertwined and both will pay the heavy price if the trade sanction occurs from both side. Japan will suffer more than China because of lack of natural resources, lack of huge growing market, lack of supply chain for manufacturing raw materials and components.

Both side has to compromise something for win win situation, After all ancient Japanese and Chinese share the , same feature, written language, culture, art and craft, architecture and philosophy. Why not they share the natural resources of that inhabited Islands? They have to heal the old wounds like Norman and Saxon of ancient England. It is the right moment for swallowing the national pride of both sides.

China-Japan Dispute Over Islands Risks $340 Billion Trade

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-17/china-japan-dispute-over-islands-risks-340-billion-trade.html

I wonder if fighting over those islands were worth $340 billion.

For once business leaders can play a positive role in a social perspective. These guys should be urging their respective governments to cool down and look at the possible economic downfall of confrontation.

China pushes Japan with sea claims, trade threats

I think ultimately, China is pushing Japan to comply with the Japanese Instrument of Surrender and the Potsdam Agreement which says:

"The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine."

Japan used to comply with the Japanese Instrument of Surrender and ceded the Diaoyu islands and Ryukyu islands after 1945. That is the reason why Japanese who visited Ryukyu must have their passport stamped at the Ryukyu immigration between 1945 to 1971.

And that is the reason why the Diaoyu islands and Ryukyu islands can't even be found in any map of Japan either published in Japan or other nations in the world between 1945 to 1971 such as this one:

http://retromaps.tumblr.com/image/30107477891

@Guru. However those islands were returned to Japan by the Americans. The Senkaku Islands and Ryukyu Islands fall under Okinawa and Kagoshima prefectures which is a part of Japan.

Why not they share the natural resources of that inhabited Islands?

Actually Hu Jintao proposed not only to share that inhabited Islands but also the oil/ gas fields in the East China sea with Japan. However, the case is now closed after the Maehara-Noda clique in DPJ took over power and tried to change the status quo instead of shelfing the dispute like what the LDP did.

However those islands were returned to Japan by the Americans.

According to the Americans, the return is only administration but not sovereignty.

Trade war hurst both sides but will hurt japan more because japan at the moment ralays on Chinese trade more. China is largest trade partner to Japan but japan is probably fourth or fifth largest to China. China can give more business to USA and European or even Korean. Japan will not only loss the trade war but will loss the island as well for sure because China is so resolved to get it back this time because there is no excuse to get it back. Military war with China? You better do not think about it. Japan will not go to far.

Trade war hurts both sides but will hurt japan more because japan at the moment relys on Chinese trade more. China is largest trade partner to Japan but japan is probably fourth or fifth largest to China. China can give more business to USA and European or even Korean. Japan will not only loss the trade war but will loss the island as well for sure because China is so resolved to get it back this time because there is no excuse to get it back before. Military war with China? You better do not think about it. Japan will not go too far.

Guru, so you also think Okinawa island chains (including Senkaku) should be reverted to the great motherland as the Ryukyu Autonomous Region of China ? (Koreans have a much longer, uninterrupted history as a much more faithful tributary vassal of China, aren't they? So, more qualified to be the Autonomous Region of China ?)

Expect a Trade war Japan! The Chinese won't lose face.

All of todays problems with Japan stem from the attrocities of the past committed by Japan on the Chinese people.There exsist an overwhelming need by the Chinese people to give Japan payback.China wants payment in blood and believe me that ,at some point, they will find a way to get it,rightly so !!

Marco LaGrot:"..stem from the attrocities of the past committed................wants payment in blood ..."

ironic that so many of the anti-japanese demonstrators love to wave the Thoughts of Chairman Mao

Korean products is gaining more market share now to replace the Japanese goods.

Korean products is gaining more market share now to replace the Japanese goods.

Japan absolutely can not compete with Korea as China shuts out Japanese businesses in China. We're witnessing the end of Japan as we speak. Maybe the only winner out of this was Korea.

"We're witnessing the end of Japan as we speak. "

Something to do with the fact that Chinese share prices fell sharply this week while Tokyo's Topix index rose ?

Mary M.--------In Nanking(1937) Japanese soldiers used Chinese women as comfort women raping and killing them,tore the eyes out of children,use Chinese women and children in their labs instead of rats experimenting with new technics.More than 200 thousand Chinese were killed and you render judgement on me making reference to anti-japanese and thoughts of chairman Mao,really !! View for yourself on youtube the attrocities and be informed.

Marco, the killing methods described by you sound more like traditional chinese methods than japanese.

Very good way for China to be booted from the WTO and massive sanctions be placed. We could see Japan benefiting from all of it rather than losing out, but only if mining companies are smart and re-open the rare earths mines.

Very good way for China to be booted from the WTO and massive sanctions be placed.

on what basis?

All the Korean companies will fill out the gaps made by the lack of Japanese businesses in China. If they don't calm this whole thing down then Japan will come out as a big loser. China may lose a little but Japan's losses will be unimaginably big. This is a lose-lose situation for Japan. Korea must be laughing out loud at the whole thing. Japan thinks it can expand to south-east Asia, India, etc, but all of those markets are already taken by Korea.

GOOD LUCK JAPAN, you're going to need it.

As of today, Japan is the largest foreign direct investor in China, they are in it for the market rather than the cheap labor. China is the largest market for Japanese exports, while Japan is the fourth-largest market for Chinese exports.

Ok Fellas can argue until you turn blue in the faces as to the question of who needs who more , but they all need each other like some co-dependent dysfunctional family

Take a look at this very interesting chart ;) This conflict does not bode well for Japan.

http://i.imgur.com/p6YzA.jpg

Thomas Anderson

That is all good and all but the SK supply chain is deeply relies on Japanese components to manufacture most of SK electronics.

Sk also does not have carbon fiber technology nor water purification technology. Various super sensitive coreless electric motors can only be supplied by Japan and Japan holds a monopoly on quartz time pieces and miniture CCD cameras.

As I had posted earlier that why SK runs a vast trade defecit against Japan and it becomes larger as SK exports more goods.

Chinas actions look like they took the ideas from "Blitzkrieg".

some interesting data:

"In 2011, China was the largest market for Japanese exports, while Japan was the fourth-largest market for Chinese exports. China’s shipments to Japan totaled $148.3 billion last year while it imported $194.6 billion of Japanese goods, according to Chinese customs data. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-17/china-japan-dispute-over-islands-risks-340-billion-trade.html

some interesting data:

Unlike China or Korea, Japan is not an export dependent country much like U.S.

http://www.iti.or.jp/stat/2-008.pdf

^here is more info for you, nigelboy ;)

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/japans-wtf-chart

Well, cut off trade with Japan will not only hurt to Japan but China as well. Also Communist China will be biggest loser too. Japanese Companies employ Chinese peoples and Japanese peoples buy Communist Chinese goods. I hope more Japanese peoples were patriotic than now they are. If someone in Japan has start campaign for stop buying Made in China products and then Communist China will correct their mistake soon. Peaceful demonstration is not against the law. Wake up Nippon Jin.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/politics-pushes-japan-toward-fiscal-cliff#comment_1386751

Discussed ad nauseum mano2012.

Click on

http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-is-never-going-to-default-2012-5

provided by JeffLee

Go ahead nigelboy, you want another Lost Decade for japan? ;)

kobuta: If someone in Japan has start campaign for stop buying Made in China products and then Communist China will correct their mistake soon.

Go ahead. Didnt u read the data i posted earlier? Japan is China's 4th largest export market, whereas China is Japan's largest export market. China will just divert its loss of sales from Japan to Africa. Africa is now China's 4th largest trading partner (import-export). There are still huge huge un-opened markets in Africa. The official statement from China was correct: Japan will lose much more economically. Thats the reality that is hard to be accepted by the Japanese ppl.

@mary, I had read that article/statement, and thats why I repeated it for nigelboy. As I said earlier and often, both sides will lose, this is a lose-lose situation as of now unless they find a middle-of-the-road solution, however, Japan will lose much much more. Even if this conflict is resolved, Japan has now lost the goodwill among its Chinese customers!

The threats are going to cause western businesses to think twice about business in China and also speed up moves to elsewhere. China may think it hold all the cards but that's not true, there are options. For example, rare earths mining in the USA is being re-started in response to the high prices caused by controls in China. US businesses are bringing jobs back to the US or to other countries for a lot of reasons, but wage costs and the cost of transportation are two. The lack of patent protection and the lack of the rule of law in China are others. If China starts a trade war over the islands things will get difficult for a while but I think, in the long run, it would be better for Japan and the US if companies pulled out of China. It seems that the Chinese government wants to help expedite that decision. Good!

In the meantime it's better to stand up to bullies from the beginning. If the US had stood up to Japan in the 1930s the Pacific war might never have started. Lesson learned.

Gee mano2012

Why would Japan be worried about an lost exports to China which accounts merely 2.5% of Japan's GDP?

As other have stated, the bulk of the exports are high end parts and materials used by Japanese subsidiary manufacturers and or other high tech firms for their finished products. China is an assembler but her status as a "factory of the world" is fading due to increase in wages where it's no longer attractive as it use to be.

Secondly, China's domestic consumption as a percentage of GDP are around 30 percentile which is pitiful. In essence, China's rise in GDP are capital expenditures, real estate and government spending hence you have literally hundreds of high rise condos with minimal occupancy (Gordon Chang's report).

Lastly, you got millions of unemployed disgruntled youths who can't afford Japanese products destroying stores and factories that employ thousands of Chinese and you have the nerve to think that other country's firms will "pick up the slack"? If you are a marketing consultant, how do you manage to pull that off?

"This use to be a Panasonic factory that shut down last year. Don't worry. We'll fix the broken glass and remove the ashes before you decide to move in."

@gelendestrasse Ishihara and the current dilemma is actually good for China. As I said earlier, the most important impact is it will Accelerate innovation in China! It is actually good the some/many manufacturing are now repatriated to the US as labor costs in China is going up +10% yearly. This is the exact route that is part of the next levels of China's growth, which is more high value-added products/services and innovation-based technologies. Thus, if Japan pulls out (which is more likely in the medium/long-term) the implications for China will actually be Great! China's (current) companies and new companies will create new products to fill any vacuum left by Japanese companies.

Trust me, you will see that this current dilemma will be resolved.

@nigelboy. Your calculation is slightly wrong, Japan's exports to China is about $200B or approx 4% of Japan's GDP. It works both ways you know. China's exports to Japan is $150B or about 2.5% of its GDP,

you said: Secondly, China's domestic consumption as a percentage of GDP are around 30 percentile which is pitiful.

Im not sure that 30% is correct, nevetheless your logic is flawed, because the internal economy/consumption is going up rapidly, and it will keep going up.

you said:

Lastly, you got millions of unemployed disgruntled youths who can't afford Japanese products destroying stores and factories that employ thousands of Chinese and you have the nerve to think that other country's firms will "pick up the slack"? If you are a marketing consultant, how do you manage to pull that off?

your logic and assumption is again flawed. How did u arrive at that conclusion that those who destroyed the stores could not Afford to buy japanese products? lol Yeah, there are huge markets all over the world, as I said, Africa is a huge market and is now China's 4th largest trading partner (import-export) and is expanding rapidly.

in the end, Japan will lose that huge 1.3 billion ppl. any businessman will be a fool to ignore that.

One point I need to add: The reason the US gov rescued the GM, Chrysler etc in the 2008 financial crash is because for every job in those industries there are many more that are affected because the suppliers get their raw materials and parts from other smaller companies.

The above data: Japan's 4% (of its GDP) export to China will actually be perhaps upto 10-15% of its GDP because the products produced in Japan are connected to other industries which provide the parts and services to make the final products exported to China.

Similarly that 2.5% (of China's GDP) exports to Japan may also be up to 5-10% of China;s GDP on similar logic.

Both will lose, both Japan due to its Lost decade will suffer more and further severe consequences cannot be ignored.

Your calculation is slightly wrong, Japan's exports to China is about $200B or approx 4% of Japan's GDP. It works both ways you know. China's exports to Japan is $150B or about 2.5% of its GDP

To be precice, $194.5 billion to $5867 billion which is roughly 3.3% in 2011

http://www.jetro.go.jp/world/gtir/2012/pdf/2012-cn.pdf http://www.tradingeconomics.com/japan/gdp

Im not sure that 30% is correct, nevetheless your logic is flawed, because the internal economy/consumption is going up rapidly, and it will keep going up.

I stated 30 percentile. And it's going down.

http://www.boj.or.jp/research/wps_rev/rev_2011/data/rev11j10.pdf

your logic and assumption is again flawed. How did u arrive at that conclusion that those who destroyed the stores could not Afford to buy japanese products? lol Yeah, there are huge markets all over the world, as I said, Africa is a huge market and is now China's 4th largest trading partner (import-export) and is expanding rapidly.

If they are unemployed, I'm quite certain that they can't afford some of the products/cars they destroyed. Secondly, the household income to GDP ratio has been declining for almost a decade now.

Like I stated, your country is not only trade based, it's heavy on capital investments by building ghost towns.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/12/china-property-electricity-asia-opinions-columnists-gordon-g-chang.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2096345,00.html?xid=newsletter-weekly

The country is rich but the people aren't hence the vast number of turnouts in this government sponsored riots that we seen lately.

I stated 30 percentile. And it's going down. http://www.boj.or.jp/research/wps_rev/rev_2011/data/rev11j10.pdf

I cant read Japanese. Show me some data in English that China's internal consumption is going down. lol I want to see that data. The fact is: it is going up!

If they are unemployed, I'm quite certain that they can't afford some of the products/cars they destroyed. What kind of logic is that?

Secondly, the household income to GDP ratio has been declining for almost a decade now. The fact is China's GDP/capita has kept increasing over the years.

The other links, you gave one from Gordon Chang lol who has an agenda since he has written books about the coming crash of china, he gave the year, it didnt happen! Then he has revised that it will happen at the end of this 2012. lol. He is like the Harold Camping the false prophet who said the world would end in May last year, it didnt happen, then Camping revised it to Oct. 2011 didnt happen,either lol

The fact is China must create tens of New cities to accomodate ppl who will migrate from inner china to the cities. Those ghost cities are part of its long-range plans.

If they are unemployed, I'm quite certain that they can't afford some of the products/cars they destroyed.

what kind of logic is that. lol

Secondly, the household income to GDP ratio has been declining for almost a decade now.

The fact is China's GDP/capita has kept increasing over the years.

btw, if you want to exact too, my 2.5% calculation is based on a round # of $6 Trillions China GDP. But the# is actually higher than that, so that 2.5% is more like 2.x% where x is less than 5.

repost for new readers:

One point I need to add: The reason the US gov rescued the GM, Chrysler etc in the 2008 financial crash is because for every job in those industries there are many more that are affected because the suppliers get their raw materials and parts from other smaller companies.

The above data: Japan's 4% (of its GDP) export to China will actually be perhaps upto 10-15% of its GDP because the products produced in Japan are connected to other industries which provide the parts and services to make the final products exported to China.

Similarly that 2.5% (of China's GDP) exports to Japan may also be up to 5-10% of China;s GDP on similar logic.

Both will lose, but Japan due to its Lost decade will suffer more and further severe consequences cannot be ignored.

correction: based on the link nigelboy provided http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp china's gdp in 2011 was $7.3 trillions.

Therefore that $150B exports to japan is just about 2.05, lets round it down it 2.0 %

I cant read Japanese. Show me some data in English that China's internal consumption is going down. lol I want to see that data. The fact is: it is going up!

Page 2. The dotted red line.

The other links, you gave one from Gordon Chang lol who has an agenda since he has written books about the coming crash of china, he gave the year, it didnt happen! Then he has revised that it will happen at the end of this 2012. lol. He is like the Harold Camping the false prophet who said the world would end in May last year, it didnt happen, then Camping revised it to Oct. 2011 didnt happen,either lol

I think it has crashed.

The fact is China must create tens of New cities to accomodate ppl who will migrate from inner china to the cities. Those ghost cities are part of its long-range plans.

Of course, that's the reason why the developers are slashing prices. Nice planning.

what kind of logic is that. lol

Simple logic.

The fact is China's GDP/capita has kept increasing over the years.

Like I said, rich country, poor people. Please concentrate.

Page 2. The dotted red line. Show me data to show China's internal consumption has decreased over the years.lol When in fact KFC, Yum brands, McDonalds are expanding rapidly in China, when middle class ppl are buying cars left and right and investing in buying their own homes and apartments. oh yeah.

I think it has crashed. Based on your psychic medium reading? ;)

Of course, that's the reason why the developers are slashing prices. Nice planning. Have u actualy been a member of any urban planning in any city or a state/province or a whole country?

Simple logic. How can u conclude the demonstrators are unemployed? and secondly how did u arrive to a conclusion that they cannt afford to buy things just by watching a clip on tv? u r a gonius ;)

Like I said, rich country, poor people. Please concentrate. You can flip any data to whatever u please just like that gordon chang. The fact is: China's GDP/capita has kept increasing, human development index as measured by the United Nations show the qualities of life has improved year by year. People living on the eastern coast of China provinces have a purchasing power parity of gdp/capita comparable to many eu countries. Granted there are many poor ppl living in the country sides, but the gov has improved their lives, lifted millions of out poverty.

Page 2. The dotted red line.

Show me data to show China's internal consumption has decreased over the years.lol When in fact KFC, Yum brands, McDonalds are expanding rapidly in China, when middle class ppl are buying cars left and right and investing in buying their own homes and apartments. oh yeah.

I think it has crashed.

Based on your psychic medium reading? ;)

Of course, that's the reason why the developers are slashing prices. Nice planning.

Have u actualy been a member of any urban planning in any city or a state/province or a whole country?

Simple logic.

How can u conclude the demonstrators are unemployed? and secondly how did u arrive to a conclusion that they cannt afford to buy things just by watching a clip on tv? u r a gonius ;)

Like I said, rich country, poor people. Please concentrate.

You can flip any data to whatever u please just like that gordon chang. The fact is: China's GDP/capita has kept increasing, human development index as measured by the United Nations show the qualities of life has improved year by year. People living on the eastern coast of China provinces have a purchasing power parity of gdp/capita comparable to many eu countries. Granted there are many poor ppl living in the country sides, but the gov has improved their lives, lifted millions of out poverty.

Diaoyu belongs to China as documented by this Japanese history Professor:

http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/diaohist.html

Show me data to show China's internal consumption has decreased over the years.lol When in fact KFC, Yum brands, McDonalds are expanding rapidly in China, when middle class ppl are buying cars left and right and investing in buying their own homes and apartments. oh yeah.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I stated "China's domestic consumption as a percentage of GDP are around 30 percentile" which is indicated on page 2 on the link I provided. In other words, the increase in domestic consumption has NOT KEPT PACE with the GDP other than domestic consumption. jeez.

Have u actualy been a member of any urban planning in any city or a state/province or a whole country?

I think most development projects have a price in mind with the actual demand. I have yet to witness real estate developments and vacancy units that equals a good size metropolitan population for years and years. If it's urban planning, it's surely is a POOR one.

You can flip any data to whatever u please just like that gordon chang. The fact is: China's GDP/capita has kept increasing, human development index as measured by the United Nations show the qualities of life has improved year by year. People living on the eastern coast of China provinces have a purchasing power parity of gdp/capita comparable to many eu countries. Granted there are many poor ppl living in the country sides, but the gov has improved their lives, lifted millions of out poverty.

Thank you. And when Chinese stop illegally immigrating another country in masses, then you can talk about comparing yourselves to developed nations.

We can keep arguing for hours on end till the cows come home, but still you have not provided facts to Refute my arguments that:

should there be a trade war Japan will suffer much muce more especially due to its Lost decade that will trickle down farther.

As I mentioned: it is possible up to 15% of Japan's economy could be affected should there be a trade war with China. Any sane japanese businessman will go bonkers.

should there be a trade war Japan will suffer much muce more especially due to its Lost decade that will trickle down farther.

What does the "lost decade" have to do with today? That's like saying China will suffer more especially due to Great Leap Forward. It doesn't make any sense.

As I mentioned: it is possible up to 15% of Japan's economy could be affected should there be a trade war with China

I didn't bother refuting some figure that came out of your behind with absolutely no credibility whatsoever.

talk about today: which japan is facing its lost decade and downturn!

Your logic is gonius:

they are unemployed lol they cant afford to buy things vast number of ppl turns out and Thus they are not happy with the gov. lol what kind of logic is that? eh whatz the popn of china?

refute my 15% when u r ready ;)

"“The auto industry supports one of every 10 jobs in the United States,” Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm of Michigan wrote in a CNN.com plea for a bailout of Detroit’s Big Three. The day before, she told “The Early Show” on CBS that “this industry supports one in 10 jobs in the country,” adding, “If this industry is allowed to fail, there will be a ripple effect throughout the nation.”

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/17/how-many-jobs-depend-on-the-big-three/

One can do your own research as to how many ppl work for the big three, DEFINITELY not 10% of the US workforce.

What the article points out: due to the interconnections of suppliers, parts and services that come into contacts with those big 3 represents 10% of the US workforce.

it is often mentioned that for every job loss in the big three, there are about 5-6 other ppl in the connected industries that will lose their jobs.

--

As I pointed out, any trade war btw japan and china will result in approx 15% loss of Japan's economy.

"The Center, she said, estimates some 350,000 people in the United States are directly employed by automakers, both foreign and domestic, and that 2.1 million jobs are indirectly connected to the industry including suppliers.

That 2.1 million jobs figure is in line with what most economists estimate to be the number of people supported by vehicle manufacturing, according to economist Richard Block a professor at Michigan State University's School of Labor and Industrial Relations."

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6491455&page=1#.UFjGarJlTz0

As I pointed out, any trade war btw japan and china will result in approx 15% loss of Japan's economy.

Why would there be a vacuum though? Your simple assumption is that the parts that were earmarked for factories or assemblies in China has no other alternative market to be utilized when it's basically well known fact that China is a mere assembler.

"More than a third of U.S.-based manufacturing executives at companies with sales greater than $1 billion are planning to bring back production to the United States from China or are considering it, according to a new survey by The Boston Consulting Group (BCG).

Decision makers at 106 companies across a broad range of industries responded to the survey, which BCG conducted in late February. Thirty-seven percent said they plan to reshore manufacturing operations or are “actively considering” it. That response rate rose to 48 percent among executives at companies with $10 billion or more in revenues—a third of the sample.

The top factors cited as driving future decisions on production locations: labor costs (57 percent), product quality (41 percent), ease of doing business (29 percent), and proximity to customers (28 percent). In addition, 92 percent said they believe that labor costs in China “will continue to escalate,” and 70 percent agreed that “sourcing in China is more costly than it looks on paper.”

"Beijing, 29 May 2012 -- China is becoming an increasingly important strategic market for European companies, but a significant proportion may shift investments away from China’s increasingly costly marketplace to other countries due to increased market pressures and missed opportunities caused by market access and regulatory barriers, according to the Business Confidence Survey 2012 released today by the European Union Chamber of Commerce in China and Roland Berger Strategy Consultants........

This maturing marketplace is, however, not mirrored by corresponding developments in the regulatory environment, which continues to be perceived as being discriminatory against foreign companies. Due to market access and regulatory barriers, 48% of European companies report missing out on business opportunities, with 64% of these estimating the value of these missed opportunities to represent 10-50% of revenue. 22% of respondents admitted that they are considering shifting investment from China to other markets....."

BEIJING, Aug 16 (Reuters) - China drew $ 66.7 billion in foreign direct investment (FDI) in the first seven months of 2012, d own 3.6 p ercent from the same period in 2011, the country's Commerce Ministry said on Thursday. In July alone, China attracted $ 7.6 billion in FDI, down 8.7 percent from a year ago, the ministry said.

It's already pointed out that the domestic consumption in China is more hype than reality so perhaps the recent riots most definitly quickened the inevitability in China.

@nigelboy It is good to know that u are starting to use your brain, afterall a teacher cannot teach everything, the students have do their own homework. ;)

The 15% is the upper limit, and once the economists break down on each particular industry and details, then the appropriate level is adjusted.

For example, the Japanese car companies have approx 50-50 joint venture with their Chinese counterparts. All these cars are sold in the local Chinese markets. Thus, should the chinese ppl decide to buy from other excellent car companies (eg. Geely etc) the japanese companies will lose the sales and reduce the workforce who will then Jump ship to the other chinese companies... in other words, the loss here approx 100% in an ideal case, but in reality that might be about 80%?

"Sales of Japanese-branded passenger cars fell last month in China, compared with gains of more than 10 percent

for German, American and South Korean vehicles according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers.

China is the world’s largest car market. "

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-17/china-japan-dispute-over-islands-risks-340-billion-trade.html

China's good car companies are now producing $7,000 cars that are good enough to pass quality tests and standards, and their R&D and methods and manufacturing are rather innovative:

http://bottomline.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/17/13921640-how-china-can-build-a-7000-good-enough-car?lite

Those other japanese industries/enterprises that sell most of their products to the local chinese markets will see their sales drop tremendously and immediately be replaced by chinese companies followed by korean or german companies.

those enterprises that manufacture products to be sold overseas will likely be shut down and moved to other countries by their japanese parent companies. HOWever, it takes time to shift gears and china and korean and eu companies will take advantage of that and will try to grab overseas markets not fully filled by the weakened japanese companies.

The medium and long terms effects are much more damaging, as you will see existing and new chinese companies increase their R&D and innovative manufacturing to produce new products which will compete with existing japanese companies products worldwide -- this impact will be big.

All in all the impact is huge to japan, and their economists are calculating the possible impacts nervously.

In my previous posts above, I had emphasized that the reduced of foreign manufacturing companies back to the US, for example, will be really Good for China! It will accelerate China's innovation. As I mentioned, the gov of metro Shenzhen discouraged thousands of companies in the low-level manufacturing togo out of business! As a result new breed of higher and much-higher level of innovative companies are now flourishing in Shenzhen.

It is part of the evolution, and in 10 yrs the landscape in China will be quite different from today.

For example, the Japanese car companies have approx 50-50 joint venture with their Chinese counterparts

Thanks. So China loses domestically as well.

As I mentioned, the gov of metro Shenzhen discouraged thousands of companies in the low-level manufacturing togo out of business! As a result new breed of higher and much-higher level of innovative companies are now flourishing in Shenzhen.

If the government "discouraged" companies with low level manufacturing to go out of business, how does that result in "new breed of higher innovative companies flourishing? Seems like a status quo to me.

Thanks. So China loses domestically as well. No. The Dongfeng Motor Group Co., which partners with Nissan and Honda will, for example, see their sales go down by say 1,000 cars and Geely will sell 1,000 more cars. Dongfeng will lay off 500 workers who will then apply to Geely who happens to be hiring 500 new workers ;)

If the government "discouraged" companies with low level manufacturing to go out of business, how does that result in "new breed of higher innovative companies flourishing? Seems like a status quo to me.

You can google for some stories about that, or go to wikipedia for Shenzhen which have links to the Shenzhen gov, and u can contact them to ask specific questions. Their programs worked! Thousands of low-level manufacturing companies went out of business!! and new companies producing hi-tech and high value-added products emerged.

Thanks. So China loses domestically as well.

No. The Dongfeng Motor Group Co., which partners with Nissan and Honda will, for example, see their sales go down by say 1,000 cars and Geely will sell 1,000 more cars. Dongfeng will lay off 500 workers who will then apply to Geely who happens to be hiring 500 new workers ;)

If the government "discouraged" companies with low level manufacturing to go out of business, how does that result in "new breed of higher innovative companies flourishing? Seems like a status quo to me.

You can google for some stories about that, or go to wikipedia for Shenzhen which have links to the Shenzhen gov, and u can contact them to ask specific questions. Their programs worked! Thousands of low-level manufacturing companies went out of business!! and new companies producing hi-tech and high value-added products emerged.

I believed the Shenzhen gov mehtod was through tax incentives.

No. The Dongfeng Motor Group Co., which partners with Nissan and Honda will, for example, see their sales go down by say 1,000 cars and Geely will sell 1,000 more cars. Dongfeng will lay off 500 workers who will then apply to Geely who happens to be hiring 500 new workers ;)

Net/sum zero calculation is great but what about the investments made by Donfeng? $hit cars for low income population is fine for the short term but I just don't see the "high value added" incentive derived from this concept.

You can google for some stories about that, or go to wikipedia for Shenzhen which have links to the Shenzhen gov, and u can contact them to ask specific questions. Their programs worked! Thousands of low-level manufacturing companies went out of business!! and new companies producing hi-tech and high value-added products emerged.

Now I get it. The government is "encouraging" to get out of "low level manufacturing" through tax incentives.

@ tokyokawasaki NOW WE'RE TALKING! GO JAPAN! <3 STAND TALL

but really, this is sad china, over some islands LOL! sheesh!

@chessGM The Taiwanese people not supporting China in a war against Japan on the Senkaku islands? Are you kidding? They already flag burning, no matter what their government does (= kowtowing officially to US government)...

Shall we all sit here fold our arms and watch chinese do more harm to japanese companies in china? Dont we have chinese companies here too in Japan? the clock is tickling indeed

things are heating up,

Jin Baisong from the Chinese Academy of International Trade – a branch of the commerce ministry – said China should use its power as Japan’s biggest creditor with $230bn (£141bn) of bonds to “impose sanctions on Japan in the most effective manner” and bring Tokyo’s festering fiscal crisis to a head.

Writing in the Communist Party newspaper China Daily, Mr Jin called on China to invoke the “security exception” rule under the World Trade Organisation to punish Japan, rejecting arguments that a trade war between the two Pacific giants would be mutually destructive.

Separately, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reported that China is drawing up plans to cut off Japan’s supplies of rare earth metals needed for hi-tech industry ...

Fitch Ratings threatened to downgrade a clutch of Japanese exporters if the clash drags on. It warned that Nissan is heavily at risk with 26p of its global car sales in China, followed by Honda with 20pc. Sharp and Panasonic both have major exposure. Japan’s exports to China were $74bn in the first half of this year. Bilateral trade reached $345bn last year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/china-business/9551727/Beijing-hints-at-bond-attack-on-Japan.html

****I would like to inform everyone .Japan lost WW2. unconditional surrender. the army invaded Korea and China. Anything they got during our War times from 1880 to today goes back to the ones we took it from. That is it period. WE lost we did not win. The other problem is we are an occupied country and under the terms we are still occupied and we do not have any foreign policy according to the Americans. That is what the Genearl in Korea said to ther P.M. when he made a peace deal with North Korea. So we have to kiss the you know where on the Americans until they leave. we are not a FREE country period. AKIO

mano2012Sep. 19, 2012 - 11:51AM JST "things are heating up,...........................""

something to do with the fact that Japan's Topix index continued to rise today ? how about the chinese stock market this week (especially on Monday) ?

If Mr Noda could settle the islets dispute with China in a 'gentlemen's way' instead of 'nationalrizing the islets' unilaterally! History could have changed if Japan paying more respect and consultancy to neighbouring countries! Mr Noda is playing the Russian shilloutte dangerously!

****I would like to inform everyone .Japan lost WW2. unconditional surrender. the army invaded Korea and China. Anything they got during our War times from 1880 to today goes back to the ones we took it from. That is it period. WE lost we did not win. The other problem is we are an occupied country and under the terms we are still occupied and we do not have any foreign policy according to the Americans. That is what the Genearl in Korea said to ther P.M. when he made a peace deal with North Korea. So we have to kiss the you know where on the Americans until they leave. we are not a FREE country period. AKIO

You are absolutely right! That is the CAUSE of this whole mess. Noda/Japan is trying to deny that surrender conditions. Unfortunately the world can see it this dirty trick that Japan is doing. It shows Japan arrogant ww2 attitude, sorry to say that but it is the truth.

mary: something to do with the fact that Japan's Topix index continued to rise today ? how about the chinese stock market this week (especially on Monday) ?

I do not see things in terms of 1 day or 1 week or even 1 month. I see how things will evolve over the period of 1 year, 2 years and longer. May I remind you of this quote from that article: "Fitch Ratings threatened to downgrade a clutch of Japanese exporters if the clash drags on. It warned that Nissan is heavily at risk with 26p of its global car sales in China, followed by Honda with 20pc. Sharp and Panasonic both have major exposure. Japan’s exports to China were $74bn in the first half of this year. Bilateral trade reached $345bn last year."

Tell me if that is good for Japan in the long term.

Shun Maruyama, chief Japan equity strategist at BNP Paribas SA, said transportation is the Japanese industry most reliant on China. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. estimates China accounts for 30 percent of profit at Nissan, 17 percent at Toyota and 15 percent at Honda.

http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-boycott-hurts-japan-2012-9

Jin Baisong from the Chinese Academy of International Trade – a branch of the commerce ministry – said China should use its power as Japan’s biggest creditor with $230bn (£141bn) of bonds to “impose sanctions on Japan in the most effective manner” and bring Tokyo’s festering fiscal crisis to a head.

Over 95% of the soverign bonds are owned by Japanese and Japanese entities. NEXT.

Writing in the Communist Party newspaper China Daily, Mr Jin called on China to invoke the “security exception” rule under the World Trade Organisation to punish Japan, rejecting arguments that a trade war between the two Pacific giants would be mutually destructive.

More huffing and puffing from "Community Party" newspaper. They also claim they were going to use force to take back the islands. Like I said, appease the brainwashed masses. NEXT.

Separately, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reported that China is drawing up plans to cut off Japan’s supplies of rare earth metals needed for hi-tech industry ...

Tried it couple years ago and FAILED,.

Toshiba, instead of using China's dysprosium, they invented motors that function on samarium from Australia and U.S. Shinetsu, instead of relying on China, are buying from Kazahfstan and Australia for their supplies. The price of rare earth went down. Japan's import from China is less than 50% now. NEXT

Nissan, Honda, blah blah blah

Your cited article states

....While the tensions will almost certainly hurt sales in the short term, over time Japanese cars will likely find buyers, said Zhou Jincheng, an analyst at researcher Fourin Inc.

“Chinese consumers understand that Japanese products are good quality,” Zhou said. “So Japanese carmakers shouldn’t have to worry about the products themselves, but they may need to review their business plans in the country with regard to the nation’s political situation.”......

I guess Geely isn't enough of a choice to the affluent population.

And let's face it mano2012. You only see the brand names on the finished product sold in China when the economy consists of much much more like domestic spending in which your country is REALLY PITIFUL.

For example, what counts in the GDP figure is net exports. (exports minus imports). Japan net exports to China roughly $22 billion which is about 0.38% of Japan's GDP. Negligible considering the fact that Japan had experienced those numbers during the current deflationary periods.

Second, the FDI Japan has to China is $83 billion which is only a third of what Japan has in the U.S. In addition, the combined ASEAN4 and Asia NIES is $150 billion and growing. Hence, China really has not that much impact as you hope you do.

But here's the thing. Your country's FDI has been decreasing for it is no longer an attractive option for many firms. With the recent riots, you can be certain that those companies who were contemplating on investing have decided to quit and or seek alternative destinations.

These PRC officials actually believe their own propaganda, they have never heard of India of the rest of Southeast Asia.

If Japan leaves China and relocates it's busnisses there in 5 years they are back up to normal production levels.

But China is left with more unemployed, uneducated farmers who will be hungry to feed their families because they followed the PRC line.

Such simple people these Chinese and their politicians are.

I see that the Chinese "internet water army" is hard at work spinning the PRC line here.

Too bad that they are so uninformed to think that the rest of the world believes their propaganda.

Too bad that they are so uninformed to think that the rest of the world believes their propaganda.

I really do think this is a bigger part of the problem than people give it credit for. China truly, sincerely, believes that the rest of the world cannot get along with it.

It's a classic TV sitcom cliche; one member gets fed up with the cast and strikes out on their own, and only then realizes how uncomfortable life is when you burn all your bridges.

Where are the mobs? It was very amusing to watch rioters making their dirty polluted country even more dirty. We where enjoying the show. Please come back!!

Besides being good at making cheap plastic novelties, poisonous dog food, melamine tainted milk, and fake handbags, we know that Chinese are also very entertaining rioters. Thank you for the show.

One wonders, and I'm no fan China and think that they are wrong in this, what the US is thinking being that Japan has given them the finger when it comes to the hunting of whales.

The finger? The Japanese are hunting a non-endangered species of whales, and are doing so following the guidelines agreed to by a meeting of the people involved. In other words, they met, they stated their points, they agreed to conditions, and they came to an understanding. That's how a civil, rational, and reasonable exchange occurs. And then you get the idiots who's idea of reasoned exchange is tossing bottles full of chemicals at Japanese workers.

...they met, they stated their points, they agreed to conditions, and they came to an understanding. That's how a civil, rational, and reasonable exchange occurs.

Sounds like the Nazis and the Soviet Union's agreement to divide Poland between them. Lucky for the Poles that the Brits were around to toss their bottles full of chemicals.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people peacefully discussing a problem, coming to an agreement, and carrying out that agreement. Expressing your disagreement by taking violent action, on the other hand, particularly when there was no violent action to begin with, there is plenty wrong with that.

Japanese corporations need to start moving their factories to civilized nations.

China will continue using their childish tactics whenever they want to extort something from the Japanese.

The Corporations need to think about India or Southeast Asia as a new place to move all their factories.

The workers in those nations are just as skilled as their Chinese counterparts and they are not controlled by the state.

It would only takes days to train them to do the same jobs the Chinese laborers do.

In all, if Japanese Corporations begin the move within the next 6 month they would be in full operations within the next a year.

Don't be scared of China's threats. They can't afford to break trade with Japan. The number 1 reason? It's because 47% of the male population do NOT have jobs! Japan should threaten to close down factories and manufacturing in China. China will suffer more.

Also if China actually does sell off all of their Japanese bonds, Japan would just sell U.S. bonds to pay for that. That would destroy the U.S. economy. So whose side do you think the U.S. will be on if China actually does anything?

The U.S. military is already moving their forces closer to Asia - even though they say they aren't containing China or taking sides, they are preparing for the worse.

If China does start something, it will mark the beginning of World War III.

If China start's a war with Japan, they also start a war with United State's of America. Who, love's War, Money and Power. We have used our nuclear arsonal before, we perhap's would use it again if provoked or attacked. Then we would build base's in China, as garrison's and liberate the Chinese people...If this was to become an "Atomic War", China would be forever destroyed, with radiation and nuclear fallout. America is in the "War Business" People! Obama has pulled the trigger personaly on these "Drone Attack's". Don't get him thinking about you China...Bullying is Terrorism!

i think if china and japan start the war,they would hurt each other,but the USA would laugh, the USA like to bring the war in each place of the world,he wants other countries forever under control and could not go front, the USA only want to utilize other country but not real help

@peaceful world..... I thought I was the only one thinking of that. There is no need for China blubbing, threatening, and destroying anything Japanese in China and vis a vis for Chinese in Japan.This are all initiated by a powerful FORCE that you and I knows who. I am sure no countries wanted to deal with another world war cause it will be the end of mankind with all those nukes flying and exploding around us. It's a no win solution for human kind just for some litlle islands they are fighting for. I am still wondering why until now the assigned world organiztaion who handles territorial disputes like this are muted and toothless to help settled this issues. Where are these amoebas. I am sure Japan can handle any threats or attacks by China as they have proven by almost conquering Asia during WWII. And I know China knows that too. IMO this conflicts are just intrigues made by that FORCE you and I know for their business gains and profits. Japan is now equipping their military with new Radars and planes. What for? My guess is good as yours. just a piece of advice to the Chinese Officials, please stop your activists in harassing innocent Japanese businessmen in China that is just doing business with your chinese bcounterpart. Remember , Japan is full of Chinese having businesses in Japan too. Japanese activists might retaliate. Just a reminder. BTW, IMO, stop threatening. If you really got the balls to start another world war and put an end to planet earth, do so.

a trade war would benefit the US and probably Oz as well while the EU sinks a little deeper still for the rest of the year (most likely). Doesn't anyone think it's very convenient this stuff starts when both governments face a new cycle? Averting attention of both peoples from ones own government to the other by making it the common enemy would be a real sound strategy but it's just very possible this heralds the beginning of the global war on limited resources and this is just a start

Doesn't anyone think it's very convenient this stuff starts when both governments face a new cycle?

Not really. It's pretty easy to make the "Wag the dog" claim. There's always something happening in the world.

Wow... so many participants! It took some time for me to read your entries.

The news article opens up many issues, but news is what 'happened" today, now. The 1) rhetoric and 2) the actions taken by Chinese people and the Chinese government are the key to defining the issues at hand. They involve A) economics and B) politics, nationally and internationally for China, Japan and even S. Korea and Taiwan.

Based on what happened in the article and not historically or presumptively forecasting the future possibility... or morally, ethically or otherwise... what does it point to????? View it in the current international political and economic picture.

Could anyone comment on what the rhetoric really mean and indicate? politically and economically

Could anyone comment on what the actions really mean and indicate? politically and economically

For China...

For Japan...

What can we expect here in Japan?

Then we can discuss what action can WE take....

For the next part of the discussion....

WHICH WOULD YOU CHOOSE, THE RHETORICAL ANALYSIS OR THE ANALYSIS OF ACTIONS ?