China relentlessly harries Japan in island dispute

I wonder what is lurking underwater in that area from both sides.

I also heard that PLAN war ships although not within the continous waters are still close in vicinity of the immediate area. As for Japan, Marine patrol planes armed with torpedos are flying constantly and will be a major joint war game, dubbed Keen Sword held north of Okinawa between Japan and US Navy where 31,000 personnel from the JMSDF and 10,000 from the US will be participating.

" Earlier this year, Beijing managed to nudge the Philippines out of a disputed shoal by entering a lengthy but nonviolent maritime standoff. "

Yep, and they are attempting to do the same with Japan. Politics is on their side, as a communist government has all the ressources and all the patience in the world, why a democratic government needs to permanently justify itself to the press and to the voters.

Send in the Ospreys. That will do it.

The US won't be so stupid to involve himself siding with someone, he could try to act as arbitrator role so as to take top strategical point and get most benefit from all sides.

100% quit importing Chinese crap into Japan and watch China STFU and leave those islands.

Do what?

Screw China. The US should say something since they've made the pledge to militarily back Japan if it gets to that point. Staying silent now will only lead to more provocation by this annoying neighbor.

But bosun-san,

The US won't be so stupid to involve himself siding with someone, he could try to act as arbitrator role so as to take top strategical point and get most benefit from all sides.

But the full force of 40,000 US military AND their dependents AND an almost unlimited supply of bombs and weapons are in Japan TO PROTECT US, are they not?

So, we don't need to worry.

The U.S.A. has already taken sides.

The U.S.A will defend Japan if the need arises. To all that agree with what I just stated... Good on you!

To all that disagree... Your badly mistaken and need to go back to school.

BertieWoosterNov. 06, 2012 - 01:45PM JST

But the full force of 40,000 US military AND their dependents AND an almost unlimited supply of bombs and weapons are in Japan TO PROTECT US, are they not?

Nope, not at all. They are there to defend US interests in the region. One of those interests is Japan, but they could care less about some dinky islands only okinawa cares about. And the more okinawa makes noise to demoralize the military forces there, the less the armies will want to care about useless land, and instead focus more attention on army matters.

At present point Japan can just plug their ears and sing "lalilaila~ there is no dispute concerning Senkaku~" and ignore any and all talks with PRC and PRC will have no way to deal with Japan diplomatically.

PLA is pondering if the US military would intervene or not.

Tactically they have two options trying to land on Senkaku without touching Okinawa in which case they will be praying that the US is bluffing and will not intervene in which case it would be a showdown between the PLAN vs the JMSDF which will give PLAN better odds but if the US Navy steps in PLAN will have no choice but to accept defeat and back down. The other choice would be to confront the US Navy from the start placing a blockade at Okinawa while landing on Senkaku developing a fortrified base on Senkaku then quickly negotiate peace with the US and Japan soon after forticfication is in place. In this case Japan would have to accept that there is a dispute between PRC and Japan towards these islands and negotiate on how to proceed based on that there is a dispute.

Either case it's a gambit with lives.

only okinawa cares about.

Huh?

This whole issue is just unbelievable.

Four Chinese craft typically push to within hailing distance of Japan’s ships. They flash illuminated signs in Japanese to press Beijing’s argument that it has ancient claims to a set of tiny East China Sea islands now controlled by Tokyo. China says its craft have tried to chase the Japanese away at least once, although Japan denies any of its ships fled.

Is this really the behaviour of mature people?

Maturity doesn't enter into it.

It's all Chinese hegemony and (is)land-grabbing, the latest round of gunboat diplomacy throughout the seas off China.

They find something in an old book, pick on a nation seen as weak or pacifist, and one by one play the school-yard bully till they get what they want. End of.

Notice how quiet Japan's "partner", the US is . . Hillary is nowhere to be seen. . . .. so much for Anericnancommitment to Japan's safety.

AKBfan;

" Is this really the behaviour of mature people? "

This has nothing to do with maturity. China is behaving exactly as you would expect a Communist regime with imperalistic ambitions and new-found strength would expect to behave.

Unless and until someone pushed back, the Chinese regime will keep making demands on its neighbours. Ask the Vietnamese, who lost the Paracel islands to China.

Either Japan stands up to the aggression, or you will have Chinese personnel on those rock in no time. And it is not just about the rocks; it is also about maritime borders and huge amounts of ressources underneath. Japan has them, China wants them.

semperfi:

" Hillary is nowhere to be seen. "

Hillary is busy assuring everybody that the embassy murders in Bengazi were not "terrorism", but a popular protest against some Youtube video.

Don´t expect Hillary or her boss to even raise a finger against China... they need Chinese money for their spending plans. Those two will stay meek and quiet towards Peking.

Do the math(s). Take those islands and you get another what, 200 x 200 = 40,000 sq km? worth of seas around them...

somepody is gonna get da hurt leal baaaad...

100% quit importing Chinese crap into Japan Are you serious? It would hurt Japan more than China. Many of the components used in Japanese products are manufactured in China. Japan also imports a lot of food stuffs and resources from China. If Japan was to cut trade ties with China the country would be broke, dark and starving very quickly.

This could very easily get nasty. The best thing for Japan is to retreat if the chinese vessels get beligerent because if there is a collision, regardless of whose fault it may be, i think it might kick off. China are looking for any excuse to have a scrap and the Japanese should avoid any attempt by china to start one. It will end in tears.

Japan will be supported by the U.S if it comes under threat from China. I live near a large base myself. If China attacks any place in Japan using military force it will be also classed as attacking the U.S. The U.S will not stand by and be attacked. So in closing to people that don't agree, I hope you will agree when you read my comment.

The U.S does not have to defend if Japan attacks first...this will break their agreement. But Japan will not attack first, they are not so foolish.

I hope that there is no war, as a war between two super powers would mean the end of our life as we know it....crazy price rises for normal food etc... Lets just wait and see with our fingers crossed.

But control of sea lanes and potentially rich undersea minerals are also at play, along with China’s burning desire for respect as a world power.

Hahahaha! Yeah, like this situation has shown that...

If China wants international respect, (and she has been given such respect on and off over the years), she needs to study harder how to really earn it.

Sometimes those natural instincts get the opposite result and create hatred and enmity.

In the modern world nations have to learn how to override those instant base desires, develop mutual respect and play a longer game. No-one does it perfectly.

I wish China well, and I hope to see her surrounded by friendly and supportive nations.

Chinese is out to start a confrontation with Japan. Plain and simple. Japan did some horrendous things to Chinese and in China, lies about it and denies some (all?), and doesn't teach any of it in it's textbooks, and then the general population is wondering why China is upset with Japan. Well, it's obvious, like a school-yard bully, all they want to do is do something physical about past events. How sad. I'd love for the 7th fleet to park down there for a bit and see how China then responds.

The US should just invade and take over the islands and create a wedge between China and Japan.

The US will not support Japan on this one. Besides Japan needs to show the world how they handle problems in their own backyard and neighbors. I would leave them to sort it out because Japan provokes the Chinese all the time with centuries old unjustified hatred and denial of their ancestry heritage. The US will abandon Jap I am sure just like they did Nam. This one is too dangerous to take on. Good on you japan for not being able to communicate reasonably with the rest of the world as per usual

nandakandamandaNov. 06, 2012 - 03:53PM JST

I wish China well, and I hope to see her surrounded by friendly and supportive nations.

Last time Japan lost an island to a "communist" oligarchy a Korean aircraft carrying 62 US (including a member of the House) and 28 Japanese passengers was shot down. I can't see china being any better, and obvious nobody wants to be supportive. It's like having a neighbor that starts dumping their junk in your lawn, then claiming it was their property to begin with because 300 years ago it used to be empty but next to the lawn of the person who they got their land from. (don't bother making sense of that, it's exactly what china claims)

basroil,

Nope, not at all. They are there to defend US interests in the region.

So, we don't need to put up with them any longer!

And if they are here to defend their own interests, we don't need to subsidise them to the tune of 4 billion bucks a year, do we?

You put my mind at rest.

Do close the door on your way out, there's a good lad!

America says nothing?? So does nothing mean like the huge drills by both US Marines and JASDF on taking back Okinawa?? Etc...My guess China sees this drills and kind of gets a messege too.

Our apartment overlooks Kobe Port and the MHI shipyards. We now see increased activity with Japanese submarines going in and out the port at least every other day. I would assume that they are on patrol around the islands now.

WilliB-san,

As to why Hillary says nothing about the Chinese ships around the Senkakus, it's probably got something to do with the fact that the U.S.A. owes China a rather embarrassingly LARGE sum of money.

Which is probably why the "Land of the Free" said precisely nothing about the atrocities in Tibet and the fact tat Tibetans were not allowed to compete in the Beijing olympics.

If the US makes any moves, it'd be warmongering, and people don't like that.

@BertieWooster; The US has treaty with JP for JP’s “ security”! It’s like when a bodyguard to protect someone, he’ll definitely watch safety threat from outside, but he won’t care about that someone and his neighbors throw stones/ shoot water to each other for a tiny disputed property.

Yes, this matter is childish, but why don’t you complain to Ishihara and Noda who opened “Pandora's box” which was closed last 40 yrs? I believe we Taiwanese are quite friendly to Japanese, but even we are pretty ‘childishly’ unhappy about this time how JP handle this matter!

Ok, Japan might get their islands back probably, but at what cost? The millions of cars the Chinese will not buy anymore, (last 2 months 40% down in sales already), the Chinese tourists who will stop coming to Japan ( hotels complaining they are empty and restaurants closing because foreigners are not coming) the many Japanese companies operating in China because labor is cheap are experiencing threats and forced to move out..uhmm Over what? All the Chinese wanted to do was to sit down and talk about a DISPUTE! The Japanese refuse to even acknowledge a dispute exists. Well, Japan is not in a position to act like a big daddy for Asia, if anything with all the recent troubles that plagued Japan, they should swallow up their pride and listen to the international community who is trying and helping them.

Yosun-san,

I understand what you're saying.

I've thought and read and thought some more, trying to make sense out of all this.

But it's like trying to find the value of X with a formula like this:

X = A + B divided by the square root of C minus D to the power 9.

There are too many unknowns.

I'd be willing to bet that there are some VERY important facts conveniently omitted from the information we have been given on this issue.

The U.S.A. has already taken sides

The U.S. is certainly pursuing back-channel communications with both parties. It's wisely waiting to play its trump card of public delaration. It's a diplomatic dance and all three parties know what they're doing.

flipper2

''The US will not support Japan on this one''.

How do you know? What do you know? If this is your opinion, I would like to see 'I think '' first. So that I could take it as your own point of view. I can respect that. You are not a decision maker. The 2 of Senkaku islands were used as a shooting training ground of the US. When they were returned to Japan, the islands were the part of article#5 in US. Japan treaty. I know it is not automatically USA gets involved. But for the sake of the deterrent power for any war situation. This kind of comment without ''I think''sounds as if it were a statement that is irresponsible to the readers who could spread it.

Strategically,the area is so important to maintain the order to protect Taiwan, Okinawa, Japan itself,Philippine Islands...etc. to protect other Asia from the country which has a colossal but opaque military budget expansion last decade especially for the navy expansion with provoking acts. One example, showing off its submarine to surfaces 6 miles behind of a US air carrier and the middle of 4 US escort ships.This is a big one but I know so many aggressive activities of China for the last decade.

Why China said nothing when US was ruling the islands? I admit that there is some grey zone exist of the issue that I must do my study more but one thing it became clear is this is not China. I am sure this was not just my idea but that was the concept of the world. Otherwise, the US would have had no way to take over the islands. If that had been China, the history gets new fact that is till 1972, USA occupied the 5 Chinese islands! That is why you said''

''The Japanese refuse to even acknowledge a dispute exists''.

Because for that reason,it has been the official point of view. But if China sue Japan to ICJ, I am not sure how Japan would do. Because Japan has a Takeshima case, Japan could go for it. If China has a real evidence, I would rather China sue Japan instead of sending a military. Because in 21 century,a war could solve nothing.

All the Chinese wanted to do was to sit down and talk about a DISPUTE!

This is LOL! Not true!!! Till the potential oil was found China said nothing then 1978, over 100 fish-man boats with machine guns came to Senkaku. That how the most Japanese started to know the issue. Until then, after US A returned the islands, almost none of civilians knew the issue. Then 1992, China promulgated a unilateral domestic law to control the islands.

Japan provokes the Chinese all the time with centuries old unjustified hatred and denial of their ancestry heritage.

What really do you know for sure?If you are a historian who has devoted to find the fact even if the fact does not make a good situation to Japan. I will be willing to accept it. Do not take amiss. I am not saying Japan is innocent. I wish I knew just the fact so that Japan could take its responsibility more conspicuously. But China is using a history as a weapon under the direction of The Jiang Zemin Administration. Also the facts they say have kept changing.

japan for not being able to communicate reasonably with the rest of the world as per usual

Regrettably, I must agree with you for this. Yes, you are right, indeed.

flipper2

Ok, Japan might get their islands back probably,

It will not get back. Japan has not lost yet.

Respons to Flipper 2. The only one in this dispute that shows historic hatred and imperialist agression is Chinas government. Japans governemnt is behaving perfectly civilized and friendly. Of course most of the world will support Japan if a conflict breaks out. The situation could not be more clear.

The islands belong to China. Even the Lyukyu islands were under Chinese control until some japanese nut head came down from mainland japan with expansionist purposes. Negotiations were under way between China and japan for an administration of the Lyukyu islands. But as we know japanese always want everything in their favor, they pulled out of the negotiations and started the first Sino-japanese war so they could force China to unfavorable terms. Since we can express different opinions, and knowing the true facts of real ownership, I say, let China continue to pursue the claim to what it belongs to China. Even if they have to increase their presence to the point that japanese will have no rest going back and forth, and will make japan spend its budget in defense outlays, until it will find itself in a dead end street. Did not we do that with the Soviets during the Reagan era and the 700 ship fleet. The Soviets gave up.

Chinese ships have also sought to cut sonar cables and otherwise harass ships of the U.S. Navy? And what's the Navy doing about it?

@avigator

You really need to re-read the history books to even start an argument.

First of all it's Ryukyu not Lyukyu.

Second the possession of Ryukyu was not the reason for the start of the first Japan -Sino war since there is about 200 years between Satsuma invasion of Ryukyu and the first Japan-Sino war

Last it's PRC that is cornered in a dead end concerning the Senkaku isles issue and the only way to break through is for PRC to do something drastic, a thrift landing onto the isles and construction a fortified base before either UN or USA can react.(Basically PLAN will probably require to finish it's campaign within 96 hours.)

Here's some information on China's relationship with the Ryukyu kingdom.

It's a good read, I recommend it:

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Koji-TAIRA/2119

History is written by the victors. Question is, who will be the victors?

I am going to try to tackle this in two parts. Firstly the thing I would like to know. What is the real reason either are pushing so hard for the islands? Is it mealy nationalistic sediment or something more? Personally I believe the islands belong to Japan at least on paper. There was an official letter from a Chinese consul in Nagasaki dated May 20, 1920 that listed the islands as Japanese territory. Neither Beijing nor Taipei disputed that the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands, along with the entire island of Taiwan were formally under Japanese occupation at the time. However, per post-WW II arrangements, Japan was required to surrender territories obtained from aggression and revert them to their pre-1895 legal status. The second piece evidence is a Chinese map from 1958 that excludes the Senkaku Islands from Chinese territory. Although these boundaries was based prior to the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945).

This still leads me to wonder why China all of a sudden has had a change of heart lol. The only logical explanation is what the islands might hold in potential resources as the reason more then not. The second part of this argument is why hasn't their been any surveys done to prove one way or the other? There may not be enough there to be worth the effort. Not to mention it's not like Japan really needs that anyways. The Bakken Oil fields discovery in Western US (Montana and Northern Dakota's) is the largest in US history. This is one of several sites which may rival the middle east reserves. If this proves to be the case then our dependence of middle eastern oil will be reduced quite significantly. We could easily ship whatever Japan needed. I know this because I have a friend that works the oil fields. He also knows that Montana is seeing the largest export of coal in more then 20 years.

They have by far the largest coal reserves in the country which are already seeing an uptick in exports. So the point being is that whatever those worthless islands might have is probably peanuts in comparison and hardly worth anyone's time. Is it really worth starting a potential war over? Japan US could easily build a pipeline which would create thousands of jobs for both countries and cut China out of the picture entirely. As far as I am concerned Japan is the only ally I really care about of which we can trust. I would rather give jobs to the Japanese then that piranha of a county we call China!! In closing you can bet the US will come to Japan's aid. Our economies are more connected then many people are led to believe. So it is in our best interest despite what the naysayers say.

<>Why China said nothing when US was ruling the islands? Hey chamkun, thats a lot of interest in my comments there but missed the point of it. The damage to Japan has only just started and it doesnt take a scientist to see how bad this will turn out for Japan short term and long term. And by the way the US took over many islands during the war to stop the Japanese island hopping using them as permanent Airbases to invade. Of course the Chinese welcomed the US to put a barrier between Japan and the Asian continent. However the US never had plans to colonize or mine the Islands. The point I am making is all parties have to sacrifice in order to save. Japan is in enough trouble as it is, it doesnt need any more. and as far as being a historian is concerned, it doesnt make my point more or less valid if I am or not. History repeats itself. Fact: Japan invaded China and committed mass murders. Fact: Japan doesnt recognize this as fact. Can anyone in China forgive? Europeans forgave the Germans because of the evident remorse of both, the Gov and the people. These Islands are not the problem but it is the arrogance of the politicians who refuse to apologize for their mistakes and buying these Islands from their owners was one of them.

The Japanese coast guard should just stop motors and drop anchors the moment the Chinese ships start pulling any nonsense. No-one can say that an anchored ship tried to start anything, and it will entirely be the fault of the Chinese ships. Sometimes the wisest maxim is just to ignore an obvious provocation. By remaining static you force your opponent to come to you, and thus they lose even the shadow of a chance of claiming that it was an accident or manoevering error.

The coast guard need to just ignore these idiots, and the moment they have video footage of them doing something illegal in Japanese waters then swoop in and arrest them (nice and legally), and then put turbans on them and tell the U.S. that they've captured some terrorists for Guantanemo (a tragic misunderstanding!!).

Cortes ElijahNOV. 06, 2012 - 03:30PM JST I hope that there is no war, as a war between two super powers would mean the end of our life as we know it....crazy price rises for normal food etc...

Or the of our life, period.

Cortes ElijahNOV. 06, 2012 - 03:30PM JST I hope that there is no war, as a war between two super powers would mean the end of our life as we know it....crazy price rises for normal food etc...

Or the end of our life, period.

"Chinese outrage stems partly from lingering resentment over Japan’s brutal World War II occupation of much of China, feelings that are constantly stoked by China’s education system and state-controlled media. But control of sea lanes and potentially rich undersea minerals are also at play, along with China’s burning desire for respect as a world power."

“Chinese law enforcement vessels have a foothold in the waters around Diaoyu and are expanding their activities to safeguard Chinese sovereignty,” China’s stridently nationalistic Communist Party tabloid Global Times said last Wednesday. It called that a warning to the Philippines, Vietnam and other neighbors to “think twice before they provoke China.”

Seriously, is there anyone here who can continue to apologize for the conduct of this greedy and utterly corrupt behemoth? Its only a matter of time before governments around the world decide that cheap labor can be found elsewhere with far fewer headaches. Can't wait to see what the communists do then.

It is good to finally see China stand up to Japan; just like South Korea with Dokdo and Russia with Kuril Islands. [FACT: No Chinese president have visited Diaoyu Island, but SK and Russian President have visted Dokdo and Kuril, respectively]

China thought it can solve this dispute with the Japanese peacefully but the Japanese took that as a weakness and unilaterally nationalize the islands instead. [FACT: No Chinese coast guard ships have went near Diaoyu Islands till Japan nationalized the islands]

Until Japan reverse the mistake it have done, then China should continue to do what is needed to reaffirm its sovereignty. [FACT: As seen from these current events, Chinese coast guards will continue to go and patrol around Diaoyu Island]

China’s Foreign Ministry said the exercises were “not conducive to mutual trust in regional security,” and urged the parties to “do more that helps regional peace and stability.”

Yes, and sending quasi-military vessels helps regional peace and stability? Reminds me of the old adage 'only the dead rest in peace'... basically what they're saying is: "Give up those islands, let us walk all over you and there will be peace in the region", or at least until China starts making land grabs somewhere else.

And if they are here to defend their own interests, we don't need to subsidise them to the tune of 4 billion bucks a year, do we?

and then the US shouldn't stop Japan from building up their military since the US will not protect them anyway...

@flipper2

These Islands are not the problem but it is the arrogance of the politicians who refuse to apologize for their mistakes and buying these Islands from their owners was one of them.

so if your neighbors dad had a fight with your dad and they (neighbors dad) never apologized for the fight, you then have the right to claim a room in your neighbors house because you're entitled to it? - I don't think so....

@SamuraiBlue & hidingout

avigator & iWorld are probably some of those guys China hires to troll forums like this.

regarding US involvement, or lack of it because of owing money to China. I can see that as a compelling reason why they would be involved if the confrontation intensifies. I can imagine a few scenarios: 1) The US will side with Japan and when China loses one of the terms of surrender will be erasing all or part of the US debt. However China now holds a lot of US reserves and could economically squeeze the US while thi hypothetical 'war' is happening which is probably why the US would be hesitant to get involved. 2) The US will side with China with a promise of reduction of their debt to China, but that will cost the US its image of dependability not only in Japan but in other parts of the world so I do not see the US agreeing to this. 3) The US will stay out of the confrontation with secret promises that China will forgive part of the US debt, but they will 'honour' the promise of mutual protection if China attacks inhabited land. I think this is most likely, its less risky for the US they stand to lose a little 'face' but not too much.

@XianDC, I agree with most of your post but not the analysis of the significance of the US debt. A shooting incident with China OR the US defaulting on it debt would cause serious economic consequences for the whole world, including China. I just hope the Chinese communist party gets over their meetings before there is an incident. And I hope the "new" Chinese leadership quietly calms things down. But the Chinese asserting outrageous claims on territory well away from their coast (the Spratly islands) or areas where treaties were worked out years ago (Sennkaku) is nothing short of acting like a schoolyard bully. In the long run this is going to backfire for China as businesses decide there is too much risk involved in having businesses there.

Sadly, this is looking like the run-up to WWII but with China as the aggressor. The question is, if Japan thinks the US isn't going to support them will Japan go nuclear so it has a MAD threat against China? Does China even believe in MAD? Or have they forgotten so much history that they are going to risk war?

With the China problem, Japan should become increasingly open to expanding economic ties with Russia despite the territorial dispute, removing another incentive for Russia to make major concessions. Russians can challenge Japan aggressively regarding the islands and still secure considerable Japanese investment and commerce. In the long term, one would expect the Japanese to make the most concessions, since China's continuing rise presents a greater threat to Japan's interests. In addition, better ties between Russia and Japan might prove to be important for near future geopolitical realignment that sees Russia adopt a more guarded approach to China. Until such a softening occurs on the Japanese side, Russia has little incentive to change its approach to the island dispute, and many reasons to maintain its tougher stance.

The Chinese are nothing but bullies . Stand up to them and Japan will find it has more allies in the region than it thinks . Nobody likes the Chinese !

avigatorNOV. 06, 2012 - 08:34PM JST The islands belong to China. Even the Lyukyu islands were under Chinese control until some japanese nut head came down

????? Are you joking?In 1871 after Miyako jima incident happened, 69 JPN people got Taiwan with a wrecked boat and landed on a beach there. 54 people were killed and beheaded. JPN government complained to China(Shincho). Their reply was they never governed the area beyond the east cost line.Since China did not make any action so JPN gov. had a military action in 1874 that I do not subscribe to it but the time and place is different, so I should not judge with today's measure.

Any way, I do not know even if China had exactly located the islands without latitude and longitude then. There are so many rocks in the area.It could be something else. China has no way to prove what China is saying in their fairy tale at once upon a time kind of story. The islands were recognized as TERRA NULLIUS by the international law. China recently started to say '' Japan stole the islands'' at UN. LOL!!! This is one of the examples of notorious Chinese tactful deception that they have been good at for a ages. If the claim of China based on an ancient time story becomes legitimate today, the order of the world would be gone. Therefore in order to keep the order of the world, there is the international law exists.

The judicial precedent in an international law. Island of Pal mas Case.

1)The title by geographical approachability does not have a meaning in the international law.

2) Discovery itself is immature origin of rights to obtain a sovereignty in international law which is inchoate title.

3) When a foreign country begins to use realistic sovereignty and a discovery country does not protest, the title which uses sovereignty is only larger than the title of discovery.

Based on this, China is out.

I believe that with some circumstantial evidence I see now from Taiwan makes some sense but not Chinese deception, Japan should start to talk to Taiwan.In fact Japan has already started to talk about fishing deal with Taiwan in civilized manner with respectable Taiwan goverment. I think Japan will be willing to settle this issue with Taiwan but not with China.

The US will side with China with a promise of reduction of their debt to China, but that will cost the US its image of dependability not only in Japan but in other parts of the world so I do not see the US agreeing to this. 3) The US will stay out of the confrontation with secret promises that China will forgive part of the US debt, but they will 'honor' the promise of mutual protection if China attacks inhabited land.

Well XianDC the US does have a trump card which very few people seem to know about. China owes US a ton of money as well which it never payed back. So I say turns rounds fair play if they want to play this game. The Chinese government doesn't like to talk about it and the U.S. government doesn't want to raise it. Decades ago, Beijing defaulted on debt owed to Americans, as well as investors and governments around the world. Tens of thousands of American investors own this debt. The U.S. government may also own Chinese war debt unpaid since World War II. In 1913 the Chinese government began issuing bonds to foreign investors and governments for infrastructure work to modernize the country. As China fell into civil war in 1927, paying these debts became difficult and the government fell into default.

In April 1938, the Nationalist government of China began to issue U.S.-dollar denominated bonds to finance its war against Japan. The government issued these bonds and the U.S. government further provided over half a trillion dollars of credit to China in March 1942. China hasn't repaid this debt either, according to State Department records. When the new communist government took over in 1949, refused to pay any of these claims. In 1979, as part of normalizing relations, Washington appears to have dropped the matter of the war debt entirely. However, it is one thing for government decision-makers to let go of government debt. Yet it is another thing for individual citizens to press their claims. Some U.S. investors tried to sue the Chinese government in the 80's & 90's.

Although unfortunately the Foreign Sovereign immunities Act prevents this. The law generally says U.S. courts do not have jurisdiction in this matter. Currently The People's Republic of China owes a debt of over $850 billion to American citizens who are holding these full faith and credit sovereign bonds (many of them denominated in gold.) Worldwide, the debt China owes to all bondholders is estimated to be several trillion dollars. That is in addition to what it owes the US government on top of that. The U.S. government could dollar for dollar offset bond interest owed to China with interest, principal and penalties China owes the US. They could easily bring this up of which the Chinese certainly don't want ever to see the light of day. Just something I thought people should know about. :)

gelendestrasse if Japan thinks the US isn't going to support them will Japan go nuclear so it has a MAD threat against China?

Because this is not a mere small rock issue for Japan. Without US back up. Japan will never back up for this issue with China. Japan is not going to have a war. Even if it take 100 years. Japan never say YES to China for this issue. The realty has not been changed by JPN Gov. bought the islands from some Japanese private owner. This is one of domestic real estate transactions. Do you think China even has ever sent a real estate tax to the owner in Japan. That is a clear evidence that China has not been governing for over 100 years.

Chamkun Nov. 07, 2012 - 06:14AM JST The islands were recognized as TERRA NULLIUS by the international law. China recently started to say '' Japan stole the islands'' at UN. LOL!!! This is one of the examples of notorious Chinese tactful deception that they have been good at for a ages.

There was no such name as Senkaku in 1895. Since the Japanese name of Senkaku was originated in 1900, what name did the Japanese use in 1895? Japan used the Chinese name Diaoyu and claimed the islands as terra nullius. If it was terra nullius in 1895, why did Japanese needed to used the ancient Chinese name until 1900? No wonder Okinawa goverment refused to lease Daioyu to Noda prior to 1895, because they knew that the Diaoyu islands belong to China.

Chamkun Nov. 07, 2012 - 06:22AM JST The realty has not been changed by JPN Gov. bought the islands from some Japanese private owner. This is one of domestic real estate transactions. Do you think China even has ever sent a real estate tax to the owner in Japan.

Problem is that after Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972, in U.S-Japan agreement, Japan agree to adminster Senkaku Islands. To make it clear, Japan does not have sovereignty to Senkaku, but only adminstering rights. Japan Goverment is not the owner, but just the General Manager. Japan acts like they have sovereignty to do whatever they want with Senkaku, but if you have only adminstering rights, you cannot purchase. So, if this the case, U.S. needs to define what is "Japan's adminstering rights".

sfjp330Nov. 07, 2012 - 07:04AM JST

To make it clear, Japan does not have sovereignty to Senkaku, but only adminstering rights. Japan Goverment is not the owner, but just the General Manager.

It is interesting and well balanced post. I have a question about the US-Japan agreement. Does US have right to withdraw the administration for Japan. Another meaning is US will become the administrator of disputed territory until the legally peaceful settlement has reached. I hope that Taiwan and PRC will accept the US as trustee for calming down the tension. Trustee has no conflict for self interest for grabbing territory.

Share holders can sack the CEO who is incompetent and unaccoutable. According your post, General Manager has failed proper duties. If that agreement permit, it is time to go.

@sentiments Respons to Flipper 2. The only one in this dispute that shows historic hatred and imperialist agression is Chinas government'' What??? who invaded China exactly?? Imperial aggressors are Japanese, always have been. Japanize the world was the ideology. The Islands are just one more excuse to remind the Chinese of that. Go China!

JadeDragon-san,

Very interesting.

It looks like you are right:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/23/why-china-s-debt-problems-are-worse-than-america-s.html

Yup beginning of an end of another Chinese daynasty which will splinter the nation into five or more states racing yet again for hegemony which have been done again and again through out their history starting with the first emperor of China.

Why is China getting right up Japan's nose here? Why is China harrying Japan? Why is China relentless in its harrying, as in the title of this article?

I believe Avigator fed us the answer above: "I say, let China continue to pursue the claim to what it (sic) belongs to China. Even if they have to increase their presence to the point that japanese (sic) will have no rest going back and forth, and will make japan (sic) spend its budget in defense outlays, until it will find itself in a dead end street. Did not we do that with the Soviets during the Reagan era and the 700 ship fleet. The Soviets gave up."

Maybe China is still reliving WWII and vividly educating its people about the past, but Japan today is very different.

If the Chinese government continues along this path they will risk awaking something long-forgotten deep within the Japanese psyche. "Beware the fury of a patient man"... John Dryden

Why cant the Asians just Europeanise themselves a bit, and live and let live -same to Argentina btw- People laugh at the old European notions of them being a further developed civilisation/people yet here is Asia echoing the actions of Europe in bygone centuries. Japan shows great restraint to Chinese behaviour I must say. Its this kind of stuff that makes me want a new world order.

but if war breaks out a lot of innocent people will die over the stupidity and negligence of some politicians, it's really sad.

Really, China? You consider these little islands sacred? Sacred?

If what your Communist Party says is true, that the Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands are yours by right of sovereignty, then why have you allowed the US Navy to have the right to bombard one of these islands for the last 50 years? The US would not allow China to bombard one of our Hawaiian islands for one minute...without heavy retaliation. So, really, China, just how sacred are these islands to you?

By claiming sovereignty under these conditions, you have embarrassed yourselves, saying that you have tolerated this expression of foreign militarism against sovereign Chinese soil for 50 years. Japan gave us permission to do this, not China. Every time we hear of your surveillance or fishing fleets entering the 12-mile limit of these islands, we are embarrassed for you, since you forget your recent history with these islands. In the eyes of the world, China, you have lost face by being so clumsy and maladroit.