China says many in Japan not ready to accept its rise

they are defenently right

What does "rise" mean? There can't by any good while China stays totalitarian!

Most of Japanese do not think that ‘China wants a peaceful, mutually beneficial relationship with Japan’. They repeatedly invade Japanese territorial waters. They poached red coral near Ogasawara archipelago, Tokyo. Japan's export and import dependence(exports or imports/nominal GDP) on China are less than 3% respectively. So for Japan, China is not an important country. On the contrary, China can not produce a lot of industrial products without materials made in Japan.

China wants a peaceful, mutually beneficial relationship with Japan, Foreign Minister Wang Yi told an academic forum.

China always say one thing, but does another. Just look at the South China seas dispute and realize that China cannot be trusted.

"Rise" or expansion? The two terms are quite different.

"China wants a peaceful, mutually beneficial relationship with Japan, Foreign Minister Wang Yi told an academic forum."

Japan is/was very happy with a China's economy continually expanding even as it surpassed Japan because of imports/exports. But China made a calculated decision to also be increasingly nationalistic, expand militarily and essentially bully neighboring countries. Can China "accept" that's what really troubles Japan and others in Asia?

No one is ready to accept their "rise" because of how they're doing it and what they're doing with it.

China says many in Japan not ready to accept its rise nor its aggressive behavior.

Thet's true , you can't deny it , China is doing great job for its' economy , both Japan and China helped each other is hard times and I hope each continue to do so , instead of hating over politics.

If the Chinese "rise" was peaceful and in cooperation with the neighbors the Japanese people would be happy to have them as part of the neighborhood. But China's words continue to be threats and the actions back that up. The Japanese know what happens when a country engages in expansionist nationalism - they are living proof. So they are right to be concerned.

Rise of china. Really nobody cant compete with china. Maybe we should just speed up the TPP

question is are we ok with usa control. look around the world how exausted ppl are. with middle east and south east europe being in conflict. and then there is eu strong states like germany and france who had enough of spying. this news should talk about how many countries are tired of leting usa do what it wants. and puting japan on that small majority like amerikan-anti china sentiment would make japan be another bad guy. let china do what it wants in south china sea. they didnt do anything wrong in south china sea as they followed orders by international peace keepers

Well, chickens coming home to roost and all that.

As far as China goes, they are a threat to all their neighbours, however the way Japan currently deals with China is about right. Backing down to China will only embolden the Chinese.

“China’s development has already given Japan very great benefits. But mentally, I don’t think the Japanese side is fully prepared for this. I think this is the root cause of many of the issues between China and Japan right now,” he said.

Agree completely. Based on my time in Japan, I believe most Japanese still think Japan is the center of power in the region, and have not fully come to grips with the reality of an economic and military super-power as its neighbor. As recently as 1995 -- just twenty years/less than a generation ago -- China ranked #8 in GDP in the world, at less than 1/3 the size of Japan. In 2015 they are #2, with an economy two-and-one-half times the size of Japan. And with the legendary inward-focus of Japan, this has largely gone unnoticed.

The entre world, not just the Japanese are not prepared to accept China's "rise". For decades while climbing the economic ladder they sold us the "peaceful rse" line, one which all of Asia now sees as the big lie. The Japanese in particular have a bad memory of an authoritarian goverment and out of control military power. China is the embodiment of their fears. If and when China evolves as a nation it's rise will be welcomed by the world. But unil then, it's nationalism and expasionism must be contained.

Japan is increasingly viewed by its neighbors as an irrelevant nation of has-beens. They arn't wrong. Its cultural, technological and diplomatic powers has all but vanished throughout the region. Japans future is increasingly dim.

To make matters worse, Abe and his moronically nationalistic cabinet are doing their utmost to sour relations with this growing giant: visits to yasukuni, war crime denial, and other hostile behavior. What a foolish move. They need to remove their head from the arse and establish a more mature form of diplomacy.

There is a nugget of truth in that statement based on the ancient history between the countries. Before the whole restoration period Japan did look to China in terms of development. After the Meiji restoration Japan then turned to the West and from that period that is where Japan has looked. With China's rise and taking its place in the world and essentially being the number 1 Asian economy there may well be a little bit of resentment by the Japanese.

If there is some resentment then it does need to disappear because the 2 countries need one another. Whether they like it or not they do a fair bit of business with one another which is to the benefit of both their populations.

Japan now is squeeze between two powerful nuclear capable powers this is more then enough to cause great discomfort fear and worry. But together with US the game is way more even.

I just think that their being No. 2 was an offshoot of the Lehman shock. Many workers were laid off here in Japan and the bulk of job orders were given to China , then. Hence, their income went up, pushing their present status. And to maintain that status, they're fighting tooth and nail. I maybe wrong, though.

jerseyboy

1995 is when Japan was at her lowest times due to the burst of the bubble in 1990. Japan at that time really didn't have the time to compare with other nations.

The defense budget was lowered at that year with the end of the cold war as well.

I'm hoping The Rise of the 3D-Printers will put China out of business, so depends on what you want I guess

jerseyboy

1995 is when Japan was at her lowest times due to the burst of the bubble in 1990. Japan at that time really didn't have the time to compare with other nations.

Triring -- so what? 1995 was also about the time when China was just beginning to open up its economy. Twenty years from #8 to #2 is pretty extraordinary, and your response is exactly in line with the point Wang is making. Japan wants to only look at its issues, and rationalize its short-comings, without looking outside and accepting that while it has been stuck in neutral for two decades, China has been thriving.

Twenty years from #8 to #2 is pretty extraordinary

I could be wrong, but China opening up was about all they had to do. Most of the rest was done by international corporations looking for well educated slave labor with a totalitarian government.

OssanAmerica: "The Japanese in particular have a bad memory of an authoritarian goverment and out of control military power."

So, why are you one of the leading posters in Japan's big push to go back in time to that authoritarian government? one that lies, denies, and again asserts authoritarian power on its people. Sure, now it's only controlling the media and making changes to laws and the constitution that NO ONE wants, but why else are you pushing so hard to be very much like the China you abhor? Seems kind of silly to be criticizing China's rise when Japan is doing EXACTLY the same thing but just believing it can paint a better picture of it.

It is not controlling the media. Like all players, the Japanese government does maneuver to put itself in a good light, and that's very much part of the game. As for the Constitutional changes, while I can see where the concerns are coming from, one has to be intellectually honest and admit that the proposed changes can be given a benign interpretation as no more than cleaning up the language.

It is also true that the balance between absolute freedom and security does sometimes need adjustment in times of crisis, and with China rising up, it may indeed be necessary to take a step or two in that direction. That's not the same as wanting to be the same as China.

Serrano: Whose fault is this?

< Is there fault, for not acquiring nuclear weapon stockpiles? >

"Rise" or expansion?** both take your pick, Japan has never really accepted having its place taken as #2 in the worlds largest economies. Im no fan of Chinas policies, but Japan needs to accept its best economic days are behind it and China and many other asian rivals now want in on the pie, and im an exporter of Japanese made goods the majority of which are superior to the chinese product

South China Sea is not meant of China's sovereignty over the sea as Indian Ocean is not belonging to India alone. China should give up the claim of Sprately and other Islets and adopt the policy of Live & let Live. Depending on these issues the mighty USA is not leaving the area. China should extend "Handshakes" to neighbouring Nations instead of showing "Fist" otherwise problems will take malignant shape day by day.

It's probably the vulgarity that most people, rightly find unacceptable.

Most of Japanese do not think that ‘China wants a peaceful, mutually beneficial relationship with Japan’. They repeatedly invade Japanese territorial waters. They poached red coral near Ogasawara archipelago, Tokyo. Japan's export and import dependence(exports or imports/nominal GDP) on China are less than 3% respectively. So for Japan, China is not an important country. On the contrary, China can not produce a lot of industrial products without materials made in Japan.

And have a war museum dedicated to encouraging young Chinese to shoot Japanese with guns. They are so peaceful. By "rise" they mean claim the rest of the world because there are Chinese people there. Chinese=China=Communist Party.

@ kiyoshiMukai

Very interesting point, kind of like a shortcut to thinking.

The lack of acceptance by many Japanese people of China’s rise is one of the root causes of the problems between the two countries, China’s foreign minister, a former ambassador to Tokyo, said on Saturday.

This is absolutely true, but is carefully worded in a way to make it almost meaningless. Yes, the fact that many (an unquantfiable number larger than "a few") Japanese people can't accept China's rise is one of the root causes of problems between the two countries. There are other root causes, and the fact that one root cause may be rooted in some form of bigotry does not de-legitimize the other root causes.

Kazuaki: "That's not the same as wanting to be the same as China."

It's the same as BEING China, despite most people not wanting it, and just trying to call it by a different name. As for your justifications of it, I have no doubt China makes the same arguments on "The Peoples'" behalf. You're sugarcoating, just as I said -- Japan just tries to make it look prettier. The current government is doing ANYTHING but 'cleaning up' benign or vague wording, my friend! Just look at the Secrecy Law and the intentionally vague wording they JUST implemented so that they can literally interpret it to do anything they want. And as for the media, this is not the first time they have gone above and beyond; don't forget they would not let certain people speak at NHK broadcasts because they had anti-Nuclear views when the government made it clear that they wanted the NPPs restarted.

"It is also true that the balance between absolute freedom and security does sometimes need adjustment in times of crisis, and with China rising up, it may indeed be necessary to take a step or two in that direction."

That's how it starts, my friend. Next, when you can no longer object because it would be 'an act against the state and security', there will be those that say your right to an opinion need to be given up as well. You still have a bit more power and freedom, but not for long the way Abe and Co. want things to go. So the people complaining about China's rise need to take a quick peek in the mirror.

Everything which rise also comes down.

If it's peaceful rise then everyone can accept it but if not, which is the case with China, then obviously many can't accept it.

Smithinjapan, wtfjapan, jerseyboy are right. The whole thing also boils down to Japan clinging to its "superiority complex", and it is fair to say Japan tends to find all sorts of excuses to maintain its tensions with China for the purpose of showing that Japan still is "relevant and is (barely) dominant." But Japan should just face the harsh reality quickly and accept that China is far more peaceful than other nations who are lecturing the world and initiating military interventions and unjust wars and that its rise has been truly benefit in not a small way to many many nations - in fact, China will be a very powerful presence that many in the world depend on to secure economic and other stable advantages. And lastly, Japan suffers from its own inability to understand why the people it tends to look down on (China) have now surpassed them (Japan) in everything, because the Japanese have this cult-like self-belief they are the best, purest, and most civilized and smartest in Asia (they probably conveniently forget how they acted in WWII). Japan has to realize, as some posters said above, that it is far from the purest, and its best days are fading so fast it amazes me all the time (no innnovation in Japan, archaic rules, no long-term vision, apathy, young people have no real identity, Japanese people tend to recently lose control very fast and resort to violence, pressures suppressing all age groups, and now Japan is showing signs of fascism by way of Abe's totalitairian methods, and thus people are losing their voice - not to say they had a strong one before), and they have to adjust their mentality to self-reflect and also accept that China has its own or more merits that are so beneficial to many other countries, including the USA , EU and Japan etc.

Nobody on this planet would mind a truly peaceful rise by China. But as to how they're "rising" now? Not a chance in hell is anyone going to accept it with the CCP.

China would need to set-up a system that has variables separate from a global capitalism if they are interested in having growth for a long time. 2008, 1980 and 1930 continually exposes the obvious weaknesses in the current system of bank failure and private ownership of vital resources and Fiat monetary systems that run amok and crash.

Fire PM Abe as the prime minister and Japan-China relation will most likely improve. Japan-China relation was better before he became prime minister. He is stepping on too many toes of other people including Japanese at once. He wants to revise the Constitution without the required approval of at least two-thirds majority in the House of Representatives and the House of Councillors, and the majority of voters in a referendum. He puts himself above the laws like a dictator. He denied former Japanese PM has shelved the Senkakus dispute with China until the government of United Kingdom released declassified documents confirming the shelving. His knowledge of Japanese history is pitiful as shown by his speeches in the Diet and elsewhere.

Too many contradictions here. If the world is not accepting the way China is rising, then why are they not stopping China but instead are cooperating with her in so many fronts? Makes no sense. The fact that there is no concrete action by anyone to stop China proves that the world doesn't feel China is rising in an unacceptable way. It's as simple and clear as that. Even the USA is trying to have deals with China. But the world has to accept the hypocrisy of Japan?, and the western nations who sanction, send militaries and start unjust wars? Nuff said.

A lot of people here "unaware" of history obviously!

China has always been big, Japan always "small".

"Small" Japan has never submitted to huge China. Not even during the brief Sinocentristic period in their history.

"Small" Japan has taken on bigger China many times; we all know the results for bigger China.

"Small" Japan is not about to submit to huge China authoritarianism.

Huge China will never dominate Asia, all because "little Japan lives there.

It's just business as usual.

Submit or not, Japan already losing ground and fading so fast. Japan can try to grasp at straws, but the reality she is step by step accepting (grudgingly) is the only one. Even Japanese experts have said China is unstoppable and Japan is being left in a trail of dust. Those who deny this reality live in a fantasy, like Abe. So, Japan, keep grasping at straws GAMBATTE and good luck. Even Obama and EU are far realistic in their setting their future with China.

what China means is we are taking over and stay out of our way.

zichi JUN. 28, 2015 - 10:40AM JST On the 70th anniversary of the end of the war all the regional countries need to make efforts to enter a new era of peace and cooperation.

However, in this case, it doesn't quite work, because while Japan, Australia, and the Philippines are to a large degree beholden to the U.S., India cannot join the containment web because it has a policy of hedging various great powers, because India is a member of BRICS, and because of its dependency on Russian military equipment. And India is the big player involved; the only state among the "middle powers" that has a long-term hope of containing and defeating China due to its own population potential.

And China knows what's going on. It is spending every effort possible to buy off or limit India as a potential containment partner against China, and with the reset in Modi's relations with China it looks as though for Modi, China will be the primary relationship and countries like Japan will just be forms of leverage to obtain an advantageous relationship with China.

BRICS is not any kind of official diplomatic pack furthermore India is purchasing various US as well as French military equipment as well.

India will join some kind of alliance with western nations or the "Necklace of pearls" would contain India with potential military ports being developed in Pakistan and Sri Lanka.

@ peeping tom

Interesting point, kind of like a short cut to thinking.

I would suggest the major hurdles towards mutually beneficial relations between the two are... 1) They both recognize that the problems that exist between China/Japan are created by both China/Japan. 2) China needs a villain to keep the populace in line. Japan fulfills that role. To a lesser extent, that's true in reverse too. 3) Japan needs to reconcile itself with it's history.

That's how it starts, my friend. Next, when you can no longer object because it would be 'an act against the state and security', there will be those that say your right to an opinion need to be given up as well. You still have a bit more power and freedom, but not for long the way Abe and Co. want things to go. So the people complaining about China's rise need to take a quick peek in the mirror.

That's stereotypical, slippery slope fallacy thinking, and it is intellectually lazy. The Secrecy Law is something that is long overdue for Japan, despite the screams of the liberals. So far, there have been no reports of abuse. While vigilance is required,, that's not the same as unconditional banning. In fact, unconditional banning is the very anti-thesis of vigilance.

As a Westerner, your time may be better spent on attacking the abues of power that is being undertaken by your own countries' intelligence agencies rather than equating potential threats with not taking any defence as the only solution.

Japan is increasingly viewed by its neighbors as an irrelevant nation of has-beens. They arn't wrong. Its cultural, technological and diplomatic powers has all but vanished throughout the region. Japans future is increasingly dim.

To make matters worse, Abe and his moronically nationalistic cabinet are doing their utmost to sour relations with this growing giant: visits to yasukuni, war crime denial, and other hostile behavior. What a foolish move. They need to remove their head from the arse and establish a more mature form of diplomacy.

Very colourfully put - and absolutely true

Eventually - All Empires Fall.

Usually by the their own corruption or by the wrath of their own people.

That's not my opinion - That's a Historical Fact.

The question will be: What side of History will Communist China stand on?

Anybody working in the tourist industry or retail in Japan already know China is in the middle of their bubble and have already accepted the fact the Chinese, though having opposite manners, are loaded with cash ready to spend. Oh and they aren't going to buy one item but 10 or more of the same item.

The similarity between the uneducated J-haters who can't think straight and the Japanese who have become so used to their "heiwa boke" is that they both have this psychotic notion that Japan today in rising to meet current necessary responsibilities is somehow returning to imperialism. If that were true these changes wouldn't be welcomed by the all of Asia excluding China and SKorea, the only nations that make harping on WWII and anti-Japan sentiment an official diplomatic policy. Japan's current changes are being welcomed by Asian nations that were over run by Imperial Japan during WWII but those nations are sensible enough to recognize that Japan has changed from 70 years ago, And certainly the US and Australia which backs Japan's current changes wouldn't be doing so if it were leading to "imperialism". China today is the recognized threat by all of Asia and the West. And every ridiculous comment coming out of the Chinese Foreign Ministry seems to strengthen this view rather than soften it.

The similarity between the uneducated J-haters who can't think straight and the Japanese who have become so used to their "heiwa boke" is that they both have this psychotic notion that Japan today in rising to meet current necessary responsibilities is somehow returning to imperialism. If that were true these changes wouldn't be welcomed by the all of Asia excluding China and SKorea, the only nations that make harping on WWII and anti-Japan sentiment an official diplomatic policy. Japan's current changes are being welcomed by Asian nations that were over run by Imperial Japan during WWII but those nations are sensible enough to recognize that Japan has changed from 70 years ago, And certainly the US and Australia which backs Japan's current changes wouldn't be doing so if it were leading to "imperialism". China today is the recognized threat by all of Asia and the West. And every ridiculous comment coming out of the Chinese Foreign Ministry seems to strengthen this view rather than soften it.

Japan has always been the only obstacle for China's overall mastery in Asia.

Japan will continue to be that stumbling block on China's path.

Some people commenting here should study just a little more, rather than coming to post disparaging and redundant opinions.

Every expert thought Japan was done when they took on Russia. Same story with the Beiyang fleet!

Not a lot has changed really.

Now JT "experts" claim Japan to be completely done for (just like experts of yesteryear).

They are in for a surprise, that's for sure.

Nothing better than a China challenge to bring the "finished off" Japan off their momentary turpor.

Most Japanese (bar the nationalists) don't give two hoots for China and wouldn't care either way how the relationship pans out.

The politicians on the other hand are the ones stirring this up.

WatchingStuffJun. 28, 2015 - 09:41AM JST Japan is increasingly viewed by its neighbors as an irrelevant nation of has-beens

Only by China and South Korea.

Usually by the their own corruption or by the wrath of their own people.

That's not my opinion - That's a Historical Fact.

The question will be: What side of History will Communist China stand on?

One could equally apply this to the US

Different words but the same rhetoric’s as always from China. "A Japanese friend... just happened to think exactly as I do"- Yeah sure, what is this, basics in rhetorics class? Consider what the implications of Japan accepting Chinas rise, the way China wants, would mean. Basically it could mean that Japan would have to bow down or stand on its knees in front of Chinas might. China should have the right to dictate who owns what for every other country in the region. Yes once upon a time China was a big regional power and that is probably the worst possible argument for trying to legitimate a similar position in modern times. When China starts showing some truly peaceful actions beneficial for all rather than landgrabbing and historically based war mongering, I will start listening.

The fact they cannot let go of what Japan did to them in WW2 suggests they may be seeking revenge down the line.

@ Cyrus Wu

The fact they cannot let go of what Japan did to them in WW2 suggests they may be seeking revenge down the line*

Japan met its waterloo at Hiroshima and Nagasaki after years of protracted shakedowns. Their demise came as a result of them going for the motherlode of all shakedowns against the powers. But, China had always been the cookie-jar for the Japanese since the 1592 Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion (" expedition", they call it ) of Korea which was then a Chinese Vassal state . He had to reckon with Korean Admiral Yi Sun Sin with his turtle boats . The 1870s was the first major shakedown of the then waning Qing dynasty by the Japanese, then came the 1894-5 War with China,the 1904-5 War with Russia where they fumed for NOT getting "enough" spoils which culminated in their GREEDY decision to Dislodge the Powers from Asia and gobble up everything themselves. Of course Chinese have every right to forgive completely,or forgive but not forget. As for Japan, It can only see the inevitable payback because, had they been in China's place that is what THEY would do. Still Karma has its funny ways of exacting its pound of flesh.

Didn't some Chinese dude just criticize America's human rights record? Saw an article about NK having a cure for MERS, Ebola and cancer as well... hmmm... one of them is taking lessons from the other aren't they?

Peeping_Tom

Japan was never an "obstacle for China's overall mastery in Asia", as you put it. If you actually study asian history, you would know that Japan was for the most part an irrelevant back water state that its neighbors ignored. Asian historical texts for the most part disparaged the country as primitive. It wasn't this advanced and militaristic far east power that you make it out to be. It was actually a poor, backwards, feudal state ruled by warlords.

Japan had two things that kept it safe. 1. Being an island far away from the mainland, 2. no natural resources. It wasn't because Japan was feared for its military prowess. On the contrary, historical texts from this period routinely mocked Japanese people as dwarves. Due to the lack of resources and distance from the mainland, no regional power had any interest in invading the islands.

Japan only became a threat to the region when they gained access to western weaponry, ships and factories. The battle of Tsushima which you mentioned, was won by the Japanese navy because of the funding they received from American, British, and Canadian banks. This money was used to build a modern navy. The Russian Empire on the other hand was broke and its navy using outdated ships and guns. The Japanese navy also outnumbered the Russian navy more than 2:1. Don't pretend it was won because of Japan's warrior spirit nonsense.

China’s development has already given Japan very great benefits.

This is very true. Japanese companies have benefitted greatly from Chinese markets. China has a great landscape and history, tourism could and should grow. Unfortunately, the rhetoric that comes from China's military growth is disconcerting for many countries, not just Japan.

Wang said a good Japanese friend had said to him that China was only returning to the position it once held historically, “so we Japanese should accept it completely”.

Excuse me? Imagine if Japan said the same!

I doubt if Japanese or anybody else do not accept China "rising" economically. I equally doubt if anybody wants to accept China's rising nationalism and bullying.

watchingstuff

I guess you "forgot" a man called Toyotomi who beat on the Chinese as if there was no tomorrow.

You also "forgot" the total anhilation that the Beiyang fleet suffered at Japan's hands; why you skipped this one is beyond me!

Too much inconvenience, enne?

You forgot the numerous times Japanese raided China's coasts, the Chinese/Mongol invasions, where China was defeated not only by the Winds but got actually beaten up once the Samurai boarded Chinese ships!

Let's not evern talk about the wars starting in the 19th Century where China was utterly humiliated, first by European states and then by Japan; not only but 3 times.

Yeah, it would appear you're in need to study a bit.

Heed your own advice.

Japan was well know for her gold in mideval times. Marco Polo was told stories in China of Zipangu the land of gold which eventually sparked imagination leading to the Age of Exploration. Even in the 18th and 19th century the exchange rate between gold and silver was skewed to global standards because of the abundance of gold in Japan.

What really bothers China more than anything is its sorry history of humiliations and defeats in the past; for a time it was known as "the sick man of Asia." Recently it has come up in the world and seems to think it is some kind of "great power" as it is so fond of reminding everyone constantly. Yet it moans and groans about its "tarnished image" and seems unable to fathom why it gets no respect. What China seems unable to realize is that you cannot demand respect or have it handed to you; you have to earn it by deeds and actions. When China does something that shows it deserves respect, then it will get it. Until then, forget it.

Christopher Glen

Even in China, Yuan dynasty is considered as a Chinese dynasty. They even named a sub class after it.

0 Good Bad Christopher GlenJUN. 30, 2015 - 12:27PM JST

I am not sure what you mean by "It's time to accept China as an important economic partner" - seeing how Japan is China's third largest trading partner (after the US and Hong Kong) and Japanese companies have invested billions in China and there are many Japanese owned factories in China that employ many thousands of Chinese workers, wouldn't that imply that China is accepted as "an important economic partner?" If not, what would it take?

“So I believe that given time, the China-Japan relationship will ultimately return to a normal stable track,” Foreign Minister Wang Yi

What other choice is there?

Everyone may need to vent their ghosts but, in the end, conflict is too wasteful with no potential benefit.

In fact, the acknowledged reality of destruction if conflict is sustained is unavoidable.

The world has nothing to lose by China's rise

therougou,

Let me tell you a secret.

I know much more history than you may think; you don't need to keep on extracting info from Wiki as I can assess it if I really want to.

I know very well the story about the 1905 war; certainly don't need your Wiki versions of it.

Keep them coming and you'll get a taste of what I also know.

Now I get it! Toyotomi was losing so badly that he brought back around 40 thousand ears, as well as hundreds of thousands of Korean and Chinese heads and noses. What a loss he must have had to put up with!

Considering Japan was irrelevant and only went on foreign wars after learning tactics and military technics from one M, Perry (as you masterly stated it) the Meiji must have happened in the 1400’s. After all Toyotomi was beating on both the Koreans and Chinese by the 1500’s.

And don’t pretend you’re not listening to my supplications.

I want one explanation for the Beiyang fleet’s total annihilation.

Hint: China had 4 fleets versus Japan’s one. The Beiyang alone was BIGGER THAN THE ENTIRE JAPANESE FLEET.

Answer the question, please!

Moderator: That won't be necessary since the discussion has gone off topic.

Now I get it! Toyotomi was losing so badly that he brought back around 40 thousand ears, as well as hundreds of thousands of Korean and Chinese heads and noses.

What a loss he must have had to put up with! Considering Japan was irrelevant and only went on foreign wars after learning tactics and military technics from one M, Perry (as you masterly stated it) the Meiji must have happened in the 1400’s. After all Toyotomi was beating on both the Koreans and Chinese by the

1500’s.

And don’t pretend you’re not listening to my supplications. I want one explanation for the Beiyang fleet’s total annihilation. Hint: China had 4 fleets versus Japan’s one. The Beiyang alone was BIGGER THAN THE ENTIRE JAPANESE FLEET. Answer the question, please!

Moderator: That won't be necessary since the discussion has gone off topic."

Off topic???

I thought you were supposed to be "impartial". With all due respect.

Moderator: We are. We're giving you the task of getting the discussion back on topic.

Tiring

Do you not know the difference between a single battle and a war? Battle of Imjin River was a single battle that occurred during the Imjin war(which consisted of several different battles). Japan lost the war and ended up losing 50-70% of its remaining fleet(and tens of thousands of soldiers) during the final battle of the war(Battle of Noryang).

Japan's success during the early battle of Imjin river had more to do with the army using European firearms(which Korea did not have due to decades of peace prior to the war) rather than actual military prowess. Just look at what happened to the samurai during the battle of Nagashino with only 3000 gunners. Hideyoshi brought 40,000-50,000 gunners during the early half of the Imjin war alone. He still lost.

"But mentally, I don’t think the Japanese side is fully prepared for this. I think this is the root cause of many of the issues between China and Japan right now,”

I think this is partially true. In two ways:

It is true for many in Japan. Particularly amongst conservatives. I have met quite a number of mid-level business and political leaders. Casual anti-Chinese bigotry is the norm. They just don't like Chinese, their habits, customs manners. More than a few are right little bigots, and you know this when they talk about about how much "those Chinese" stink.

Now, to be fair, getting along with many, particularly, northern Chinese, can be challenging. They tend to be blunt (which I like, actually), but that leads to a needlessly confrontational attitude towards, well, everthing. And, let's face it, they have trouble with equality. They either expect you kiss their @ss, or they kiss up to you. Its about power. And when in comes to cultural and racial bigotry, Chinese are second to none.

Which leads to my second point: Because of their zero-sum, winner take all domestic structure, and their great cultural pride, wounded all the more so by Western and Japanese imperial subjugation, Chinese leaders can be bullying, insufferable @ssholes.

Casual anti-Chinese bigotry is the norm.

@Iron man. It's the norm in common households too. That goes without saying here, "in Japan."