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IWC meeting abuzz over Japan vote-buying accusations

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This isn't news, vote buying was started by the anti-whaling faction which is how the 1982 "moratorium" was put into place. Since then both sides have been buying votes. The Sunday Times, and recently even AP has recently shown a strong bias towards supporting the anti-whaling faction by resorting to yellow journalism by depicting this story as if it something new in order to villify Japan. Germany went so far as to Blackmail Iceland over the IWC vote. The anti-whaling faction has shown itself to be on a level with religeous fanaticism with their unscientific beliefs, emotional response over reasoning and the lowest methods used to get their way. Here in the US we'd much rather see a moratorium on offshore oil drilling rather than a moratorium on whales.

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The thing is, this isn't being widely reported in Japan as it is worldwide. I think Japan is trying to cover this up to the pubic. People SHOULD be questioning this and asking why their tax money is going to something like this when it should be going to health care and education - or paying off the country's debt!!

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let me guess - this falls under the heading of 'culture' - another time honoured japanese tradition

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People SHOULD be questioning this and asking why their tax money is going to something like this when it should be going to health care and education - or paying off the country's debt!!

if people were to question...country's internal debt will be Zero. Shouga nai !

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Ossan: "The Sunday Times, and recently even AP has recently shown a strong bias towards supporting the anti-whaling faction by resorting to yellow journalism by depicting this story as if it something new in order to villify Japan."

Japan is doing a good enough job of villifying itself; it clearly doesn't need help.

" The anti-whaling faction has shown itself to be on a level with religeous fanaticism with their unscientific beliefs, emotional response over reasoning and the lowest methods used to get their way."

That's a laugh! So we demand real science and you say it's religIOUS fanaticism; Japan uses bribery and prostitutes to get their way and somehow that makes anti-whalers 'low'. Interesting attempt at twisting the facts and the blame, my friend. Clearly this bribery scandal has hit home.

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I feel this is more to do with lifestyle. Remember the African bushmen? Last hunters on earth they were referred to. Due to the Europeans moving into places like Africa and trying to create lego-land, forced everybody to give up their nomadic ways. As if the status quo for lego-land is any better? It also forced the hunting by law to be illegal. Now they have public enclosures for the over bred wildlife. The Japanese are trying to make a very important point about hunting, and buying the votes is their god-given right. Why you might ask. Because of the money they have earned. If you have the money to deny that then go ahead. Personally im so much more nomadic than lego. When the food is walking around in front of you and your starving and you people who can take a bite vote you who are starving cant, there has got to be something wrong.

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The "This isn't news" posters wish this wasn't in the news.

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smithinjapan at 07:58 AM JST - 23rd June Japan is doing a good enough job of villifying itself; it clearly >doesn't need help.

Blind to the media assault huh? Just wait till South Korea chooses to resume whaling. Or worse, the west starts targeting canine consumption

" The anti-whaling faction has shown itself to be on a level with religeous fanaticism with their unscientific beliefs, emotional response over reasoning and the lowest methods used to get their way."

That's a laugh! So we demand real science

We?? THe IWC SCientific Committee considers it "real science". That's not enough for you?

and you say it's religIOUS fanaticism;

Yes it is, because sinnce the 1970s the "save the whales" mantra has been used by conservationist groups to advocate an environmentalist agenda, and in doing so has so elevated the positrion of whales above all other living things that they might as well as worship them. All based on both psudo and trans-science.

Japan uses bribery and prostitutes to get their way and somehow that >makes anti-whalers 'low'.

Nope. If you read what I wrote, wht makes them low is hiding the fact that bribing for votes was an invention of the anti-whalers, while reporting it as though it's only he Japanese doing it.

Interesting attempt at twisting the facts and the blame, my friend. >Clearly this bribery scandal has hit home.

In your dreams my friend. It hasn't hit home, it's exposed the extent of this silly whale madness. I'm tempted to say that South Korea only wants the right to whale because it may end up that only Japan, Norway and Icelamd can. But then, they've been illegally smuggling whalemeat into Skorea from Japanm haen't they?

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illsayit - I'm sure you had a point to make somewhere in there, but somewhere between "lego land" and referring to yourself as a nomadic hunter, you became very lost.. OssanAmerica - with every damning piece of news about Japan's sordid actions this week (and there have been many), your only defence is "this isn't news". Has Japan set the bar so low for you that it isn't even worth a discussion?

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OssanAmerica- it doesn't really matter which side invented vote-buying in this. It shouldn't be done by any country. You say whaling should be argued on the merits of real science, but the issue here is exactly that it's not. It's being argued with bribes rather than with science. That should concern you.

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Airion - You say whaling should be argued on the merits of real science, but the issue here is exactly that it's not. It's being argued with bribes rather than with science. That should concern you.

The IWC's Scientific Committee accepts the scientific reseach that it receives from the whalers. The anti-whalers refuse to even acknowledge that the IWC has received scientific research.

The issue of who bribed who and when is a secondary but still important issue.

Doesn't it make sense to you that a "whaling commission" would require data on the health and numbers of whales for it's membership to make informed decisions concerning whaling?

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hoserfella you better get your hands a little more dirty, it seems you think it is easy to get brekky on the table. Why do you think Japan works so hard on protecting it's agriculture? And the status quo there isnt very good at this point either. Mind Japan, again, would be good at turning the tides if that picked up. And if people would quit playing with their words and just do, it would be better. Anti-canine yet?

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OssanAmerica - Yes it is, because sinnce the 1970s the "save the whales" mantra has been used by conservationist groups to advocate an environmentalist agenda, and in doing so has so elevated the positrion of whales above all other living things that they might as well as worship them. All based on both psudo and trans-science.

Wow! What a great imaginary perception you have. Do you write children's books too? I guess the fact that nearly all whale species were hunted to near extinction, which lead to the formation of the IWC, has nothing to do with it. It's just tree hugging hippy rants, right?

The documentary 'The Cove' has a very condemning section about the Japanese' vote buying for the IWC. It also shows one of the fish processing plants built by the Japanese to buy their vote, which is now used as a chicken coop. No wonder they want the movie banned.
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arrestpaul,

There's a debate to be had about whether the research Japan brings in is worthwhile (worth the cost of hundreds of whales, whether it's really motivated by science, etc). The point here is that Japan shouldn't fight against legitimate concerns with bribes. (You say it's secondary, but it's primary in regard to this article and discussion.)

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It's food for those countries seeking legal action against Japan in international courts. Be interesting to see how these bribe allegations stack up in the international court...

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It would be interesting to know how much the Japanese government spends on vote-buying and subsidies for the whaling industry. I'd hazard a guess most Japanese taxpayers would likely be more than a little concerned if they saw the figure.

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Airion - There's a debate to be had about whether the research Japan brings in is worthwhile (worth the cost of hundreds of whales, whether it's really motivated by science, etc). The point here is that Japan shouldn't fight against legitimate concerns with bribes. (You say it's secondary, but it's primary in regard to this article and discussion.)

The IWC accepts the research as research and the "alleged" bribes are just that, "alleged", until actual evidence is produced. Where is this "alleged" video? Have you seen it?

The WWF has admitted "influencing" nations for decades and even supplied WWF members to nations to act as their delegates at the IWC. Complaints that one side is unfair because they are doing the same things as the other side is bizarre.

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arrestpaul-

Do you really think Japan did nothing? I think there's sufficient evidence here that Japan is bribing in one way or another (in several ways, probably).

Also, I'm not making the argument that one side can bribe and the other can't. Not sure where you got that.

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Good bit of ambush journalism on the part of the Sunday Times. However, I don't know whether the timing of article was the best?

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arrestpaul - Where is this "alleged" video? Have you seen it?

I've seen it! It's called, The Cove. There are three countries in the documentary admitting to taking to bribes for their IWC vote in favor of Japan and, one of them doesn't even have an ocean. But, it's just propaganda, right?

Moderator: "The Cove" is not relevant to this discussion.

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Airion - Do you really think Japan did nothing? I think there's sufficient evidence here that Japan is bribing in one way or another (in several ways, probably).

Also, I'm not making the argument that one side can bribe and the other can't. Not sure where you got that.

I don't know what Japan has done in this reqard. I am specifically asking to see evidence of wrong doing. Hearsay isn't good enough. On the other hand, the WWF has admitted influencing IWC members.

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Japan's house of cards is failing woohoo!

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But it is culture. (Fingers in ears) Lalalalalalalallalalalalala Ican't hear you lalalalalalalala. It is culture.

That concludes this week's seminar in Japanese debating skills.

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Ossan -- Glad to see you came out with your predictable response -- "Oh, the other side does it too, so don't get upset at poor little Japan". Which, of course, is a total crock. For one thing, it is very logical to assume that tax money is somehow finding its way into these illicit Japanese activities. And, in case you are not aware, supplying hookers and paying bribes are criminal activities. As a Japanese taxpayer, which you are NOT, I want the folks behind this uncovered and prosecuted.

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Moderator: the Cove is relevant because it also exposes Japan's bribery to gain IWC votes. I guess you haven't seen it either.

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Hey, if the anti-whaling countries can bribe people with their people's tax money, why can't the pro-whaling countries?

If it comes out of the budget for whaling then I don't see the problem.

Do anti-whaling countries have money set aside for anti-whaling causes?? Do the donations paid to Greenpeace and the WWF get used as bribes?? Surely these questions should be asked.

If you're asking questions and raising points about how tax money is used- which I think are very valid points- you should also look at the other side, since BOTH sides do this. Just because you agree with one side doesn't make what the other does bad if they're both doing exactly the same thing.

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OssanAmerica at 07:10 AM JST - 23rd June This isn't news

That is absolute complete and utter BS! Bribery is a crime in Japan... both giving and receiving. It's also our tax money being used to bribe. THIS IS NEWS!

Why is it Ossan that you consistantly tout yourself as a law and order guy but think that certain crimes are ok???

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illsayit- I count 6 catch phrases and/or cliches in that last jumble. Are you talking about whaling?

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This whaling thing is going on for too long. Yes, soon we will have the anti-canine also.When some people realise that they need to make money and fin something to do, the anti-canine non-profit will start and there will be very zealous type like Bethune to wok for them. Bribery, prostitution, you name it, that will all repeat.

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MrDog - Do anti-whaling countries have money set aside for anti-whaling causes?? Do the donations paid to Greenpeace and the WWF get used as bribes?? Surely these questions should be asked.

Yes, the donations that are received by the WWF are being used to undermine the democratic voting process of the IWC. Shocking, is't it.

My guess is that's why the IWC is presently having closed door meetings to discuss whaling WITHOUT the subversive NGO's like the WWF.

The IWC also needs to do an internal investigation to find out who's doing what for whom. (and maybe ban the WWF as they did to Watson's Sea Shepards but that's only my opinion.)

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psssssst its whaling

and following the above id say about now-thats why Kan is in and raising taxes, the monies are aiming to split amongst the people more

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can you get money for this? i mean like instead of bribing every other hook and cranny, there will get to be new people-shufu

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oops meant womanforwomen

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The anti-whaling faction has shown itself to be on a level with religeous fanaticism

(For Japan) buying the votes is their god-given right

Doesn't it smack a little of religious fanaticism to suggest that Japan (a godless but highly superstitious country) has a god-given anything?

When the food is walking around in front of you and your starving and you people who can take a bite vote you who are starving cant, there has got to be something wrong.

The whales in Antarctica aren't walking around in front of the Japanese, the Japanese aren't starving, and there is so little demand for whalemeat for the table in Japan that they're trying to find excuses to use it in pharmaceuticals and cosmetics.

It's also our tax money being used to bribe.

This is what makes it news, and what makes it wrong.

the donations that are received by the WWF are being used to undermine the democratic voting process of the IWC.

Organisations use the donations freely given by members and supporters to follow the agenda they openly claim as their own. I do not pay my taxes freely and I do not expect them to be used for the purpose of killing whales (especially when they're talking about raising taxes further to cover a deficit), nor was this a topic openly debated in the election thus allowing the government to claim they have a mandate to bribe the IWC.

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Cleo

But if it's money allocated for whaling by the Japanese government, then it's not as bad as the anti-whaling countries who I doubt have a section in their budget each year for "anti-whaling measures" using their taxpayers money? They're BOTH illeagal, surely, but which is worse?

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ararara hooers

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MrDog -

If governments are using taxpayers' money, then it's surely wrong whichever side of the divide they're on. What makes it especially bad for Japan to use taxpayers' money to pay bribes is that they're MY taxes.

The Japanese government has no mandate to allocate taxes for whaling, especially in the present economic climate where they're talking about raising taxes. Leave tax levels where they are, and cut the whaling bribes and subsidies as well as all the other unnecessary and indefensible expenditures.

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MrDog - Countries that are significantly anti-whaling get enough donations to anti-whaling groups from concerned citizens to fund 'anti-whaling measures' on their own. I highly doubt taxes are involved, at least to the extent that Japanese taxes are.

I really hope this bribery scandal gets international attention - that might clean the whole process up and force Japan to admit that they were doing something illegal.

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Vote buying has been around for at least 2000 years.

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Cleo:

they're MY taxes

you sure are on this TAX kick of late. Hope you're not losing sleep over this because this govt (pick a govt) will be wasting tax-payers' money until hell freezes over

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Hope you're not losing sleep over this because this govt (pick a govt) will be wasting tax-payers' money until hell freezes over

Of course they will. But hopefully not on illegal things like buying votes via bribery. I can rant at some of the programs I paid taxes to when I lived in America (fish hatcheries, asparagus research), but at least I was pretty certain my money wasn't going towards buying prostitutes for IWC members. With Japan, however...

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I think I'm going to go and look for a list of IWC member countries and see when they joined. Was there a surge of land-locked, non-whaling countries joining just prior to the morotorium? Followed by surge in non-whaling countries who recieve ODA from Japan?

I'd be more upset if the bribes weren't doing things like building schools and hospitals and supporting local industry development in poor countries. I'm very OK with some of my paycheck going to that. The fact tht Japan expects something in return is a bit more problematic, but I'm still rather ambivalent about it. At least we're not demanding that they buy their military supplies from us, in return for the Aid. Or insisting that they vote with us in the UN security council or something. (Although that sort of thing may well go on, as well.)

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you sure are on this TAX kick of late.

Well, it is that time of the year... got another tax-bill brown envelope in the post this week, grr.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

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Cleo

If governments are using taxpayers' money, then it's surely wrong whichever side of the divide they're on. What makes it especially bad for Japan to use taxpayers' money to pay bribes is that they're MY taxes.

So what you're basicly saying, is that you don't really care if it's wrong or not, you just don't want them to use your taxes for it?

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Busby said those aid-recipient nations consistently vote in support of Japan.

“It makes it all meaningless. There’s no point to debate the issues because positions are predetermined,” she said in an interview.

Isn't this always the way? Meetings I attend here rarely involve debate or discussion. Surprises are not welcome, and debate might mean some surprises.

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Paying off anyone for anything is wrong, it's not culture to pay off people...

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sorry gogogo. in Japan it is culture...

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illsayit and Taj, I think we are thinking on the same line. Boring isn't it.

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If you start to consider giving aid to a country for its vote, or such then every country in the world is at fault. All countries trade this for that to get what they want. Japan doesnt do anything different then other countries.

As far as the goverment using tax money to win over the favor of another country, they have been doing it before any of you decided to come live here, it wasnt hidden nor was it covert. If you dont like it move back to your own country and you wont have to use your tax money on whales. But then you will have to pay taxes for what your country decides it wants.... Nothing changes your tax money will be wasted on something you dont like.

You can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you cant please all the people all the time..

also most charities get tax breaks because they are a charity, therefore your taxes are being used by those NGO too..... you cant get around it the money spent to change a persons vote or a countries vote is supported or paid by your taxes...

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MrDog,

So what you're basicly(sic) saying, is that you don't really care if it's wrong or not, you just don't want them to use your taxes for it?

And you're just saying it's not wrong. Bribing nations with aid is not wrong, an interesting argument.

It is illegal, it is wrong, and tying desperately needed aid to voting in the IWC completely immoral.

No Japanese taxpayer has given permission for this to occur, the whaling industry cannot sustain itself without millions and millions more of taxpayers cash. I wonder what the total cost to the Japanese taxpayer is for this ridiculous exercise in futility?

I also wonder how supportive people like ossan and mrdog would be if the money and bribes paid were going to the anti-whaling side. After the shrill hysteria at the actions of Pete Bethune, with posters here advocating anything up to capital punishment, where are the calls for the government officials to be punished? Instead, we only get puerile justifications. There is ample evidence of corruption and bribery throughout the industry, and the apologists deny the facts because the evidence hasn't actually been personally delivered to them.

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nonews, thanks for spelling it out clearly. We have very little or no control over how our tax money is being utilised. it works the same way by both the govt. and charity orgs. Some person on the top decides and then justifies the use.

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While tying foreign aid to voting in the IWC is certainly immoral (and lets not forget illegal in Japan) we aren't only talking about aid here... these bribes also went to paying for prostitutes!!!! and lining the pockets of delegates during all expenses paid tours of Japan!

Is there a single person out there who wouldn't be upset if their tax money went to paying for prostitutes in the form of bribes?? C'mon, lets see some raised hands...

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When trying to get a deal together sometimes one most give something in return for another. Like when you get a bonus at work for working hard and going above the norm. That is a bribe, someone offering you more money to accomplish something above the normal routine it is also an incentive. Depending on how you want to look at the situation will determine if you feel its a bribe ir not.

One of the worst analogies I've read in a long time... are you saying that getting a salary from a company is also bribery? Get real! These bribes are intended to sway opinion... to get someone to do something that they wouldn't otherwise do! Nothing like getting a bonus for working hard for your company!

And how exactly do prostitutes fit into your little analogy???

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it works the same way by both the govt. and charity orgs.

Oh, so I can freely decide to give money to the government (taxes) in the same way I can freely decide to give money to charity? Nah... if I don't pay my taxes I go to jail.

If pro-whalers feel so strongly about their cause then go ahead and start your own charitable organizations like WWF and feel free to use your own money to pay for prostitutes to get votes... don't steal from me to do it!

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can anyone of the 'the anti-whaling nations are bribing in the same way' fraction please give us substantial evidence (like the one put forward by the Times against Japan) that supports their statement?

I know of anti-whaling nations lobbying for their cause, but I haven't heard of similar bribing attempts (that surely wouldn't be ignored by the media) and until I get any verifiable evidence I doubt that there have been any.

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I'm sure the Japanese will argue that bribery is as much a part of their culture as whaling in the Antarctic.

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Wow... people alway get so heated over whales. What's wrong with eating them?

If god didn't want us to eat whales he wouldn't have made them out of food!

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And how exactly do prostitutes fit into your little analogy???

I think it goes along the line of "Did you say your name was Candy?" "Yeah, ok. Sandy, I had a great time. Here, this money is for the great company you were during pre-coital dinner."

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Prostitutes, bribery, trading ,help, aid ...blah blah, who care? . So how many whales are still in the oceans of this planet? what is the level of sustainable whaling? I think this is IWC main job ,isn't it?

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So the proof of this vote buying is some under-cover reporter offering bribes to some officials and then recording said officials trying to up the offers, right?

If company A were to make me a job offer and I countered with, "well, you'd have to make a pretty sweet deal to beat company B" is that evidence that company B is actually making an offer or could it be just a negotiation tactic on my part?

And if "Company A" is actually just some bloke in a hotel bar who says he's the HR SVP of Apple and in a position to make me Steve Job's brief case carrier, would you be surprised if I came back and said I've an offer for a million a year to polish Bill Gate's shoes, so he'd better be ready to at least beat that? (Point being, I wouldn't be taking it very seriously and would say anything for a lark.)

I don't see this as proof of anything.

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Now that said, ... Japan does give ODA to a lot of countries. And no doubt, it expects something in return. Access to mineral rights, opportunities for Japanese countries to get the contracts to build the bridges and hospitals that Japan is paying for, support in international negotiations. No surprise there.

If anyone could show me a country that give development aid for PURELY ultruistic reasons, well THAT would be news!!

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IronBeard Thank you!! These threads could use a bit more humour!

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Correction: "...Japanese countries" => "Japanese construction companies"

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Oh by the way, if the bribing was videoed by someone, mmmm someone else also got bribed right? Was it some hotel manager, or the housekeeping staff...

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“It is national policy to support developing countries,” said Hideki Moronuki, of the Japanese ministry for agriculture, forestry and fisheries. “Do you think that kind of massage treatment is some kind of bribe? I don’t think so.”

Um.

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taj - I think I'm going to go and look for a list of IWC member countries and see when they joined.

You can find the members and their "Adherence" date here -

http://www.iwcoffice.org/commission/members.htm

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funkymofo

I didn't say it wasn't wrong. What I said was this:

If you're asking questions and raising points about how tax money is used- which I think are very valid points- you should also look at the other side, since BOTH sides do this. Just because you agree with one side doesn't make what the other does bad if they're both doing exactly the same thing.

The anti-whalers are saying that what Japan are the bad guys, but they say nothing about what they did/are doing which is exactly the same thing.

Again, Just because you agree with one side doesn't make what the other does bad if they're both doing exactly the same thing.

Thats just hypocrisy.

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My Japanese wife rolled her eyes at this one. Quite pathetic, and sadly unsurprising. Let's take a vote, shall we? How many Japanese actually want to continue hunting whales? From the talks I've had, I'd venture to say less than 5%.

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...well then obviously that 5% mean more than the rest.

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Isn't it time to cancel the expensive and inefficient IWC?

Protecting the whales could be handled by a number of other international institutes, for example the convention for bio diversity (CBD), convention of moving species (CMS) or Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (Cites).

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Kyoken.

But the IWC is NOT about protecting the species as the Anti-whalers want, the IWC's goal is to ensure that the Whale-species is healthy and numerous enough to ALLOW whaling.

The IWC is very unlikely to ever enforce a total whaling Ban as Australia, SSCS want as this would also mean the Inuits, etc wouldn't be allowed to whale ether.

To be honest not sure why Australia,etc is even going to the IWC to try to get a total whaling ban enforced as it would put the IWC out of its business.

Very different interests, IMO.

The current IWC proposal about resuming commercial whaling with reduced numbers for Japan, etc is in everybodies best interest.

Japan has expressed interest in it, yet Australia will fight it tooth and nail as they want NO whales killed.

Will wait and see what comes out of the current conference.

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How many Japanese actually want to continue hunting whales? From the talks I've had, I'd venture to say less than 5%

It is not the number of Japanese, but who in Japan wants to continue whaling. Currently there are only about 4 cities that are involved in active whaling.

The real scandal is in subventions that are necessary to keep Japans whaling going and the number of government officials and amakudari that control these subventions and personally profit heavily. These powerful men are the real reason why there will be no end not even reduction in whale hunting.

Furthermore, these people do not want profitable commercialized whaling as the tax money they control and profit from would dry out. To stop this, we would all have to eat, and eat much more whale meat to make it a profitable business bringing in corporations, hence ending this form of modern bribery.

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Well thundercat

Lets start by taking the whole statment and not a part you want to sound bite of. Charity gets money from goverment, goverment gets its money from Taxes. Therefore charity is spending your tax money just like the goverment. Charity also gets tax breaks and that also comes out of your tax money so yes its the same no matter how you try to spin it. As far as can you freely decide to give taxes to Japan??? Yes your not Japanese and you can move back home... See its that simple.

If you get paid 50k a year as pay and your compnay gives you a bonus to sell more then required you are getting an incentive (see thats not your normal pay) an incentive is for all practical pupose a bribe..

Please show me the law in Japan that says a goverment office can not offer incentives to another goverment to get something they want. Japanese or English will do...

Also no one has shown that the Japanese have bought whores for anyone. All they have is someone stating they got a massage at the hotel the goverment provided. Depending on the hotel you can get such service without an extra charge... So please show details of the proof that they bought ladies of the night...

By the way I could careless if Japan kills, eats, or mates with whales.Im not pro or anti whaling at all. Hate to tell ya but not everything is black and white in the real world.

Personaly I think its a shame goverments and companies have to buy a vote, but only a moron would think it isnt happening every where in every country...

Now see it wasnt too hard now was it...

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Nonews,

First of all, I don't have to give money to a charity but I do have to pay taxes so this comparison you are trying to flesh out makes no sense at all. If I decide to support a charity that spends my donations in ways I don't approve of I will stop giving them donations. Do you understand the difference between donations and taxes? One being voluntary and the other forced.

Secondly, I am Japanese and Japan is my home.

Third, bribes and incentives are totally different things. That you don't understand that point is mind boggling! You try to use the euphemism 'incentives' to hide the fact that bribes are being doled out. Bribes are illegal in Japan. That is an indisputable fact.

Fourth, an earlier article stated that prostitutes were used to convince officials to vote for Japan. Just check google. And while you are at it please show proof that they weren't ladies of the night (yeah, this stupid 'show me proof' game works both ways!)

Like you, I'm neither pro nor anti whaling... but I am dead set against my government using my taxes for totally nefarious purposes. Are you ok with your taxes being used to pay for bribes (if you even live in Japan to begin with)?

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Well all the bribes were for nothing anyway, as once again the IWC rejects returning to commercial whaling.

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"Fourth, an earlier article stated that prostitutes were used to convince officials to vote for Japan"

An earlier article reported allegations that prostitutes were used to convince officials to vote for Japan.

Seriously? How good would that sex worker have to be to convince you to change your nations vote one way or the other?

Ser

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"Well all the bribes were for nothing anyway, as once again the IWC rejects returning to commercial whaling."

Or maybe, all the bribes cancelled each other out?

Stalemate. Status quo.

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****Nonews,

First of all, I don't have to give money to a charity but I do have to pay taxes so this comparison you are trying to flesh out makes no sense at all. If I decide to support a charity that spends my donations in ways I don't approve of I will stop giving them donations. Do you understand the difference between donations and taxes? One being voluntary and the other forced.

Wow I really didnt think its hard to understand you GIVE money to charity every time you pay taxes. The goverment gives your TAX money to them, or doesnt charge them for their share of TAXES so you are giving them money. If you choose to give them more then what the goverment gives them or doesnt charge them then thats a donation. You should research goverment involvment in Charity...

Secondly, I am Japanese and Japan is my home.

Its the internet you can be whoever you want to be but it doesnt mean I have to believe it

Third, bribes and incentives are totally different things. That you don't understand that point is mind boggling! You try to use the euphemism 'incentives' to hide the fact that bribes are being doled out. Bribes are illegal in Japan. That is an indisputable fact.

Use the dictonary and look up bribe or incentive. They are linked together because they are basically the same thing, it all depends on who is determining what it is.. The goverment doesnt think trading aid for a base as a Bribe they think its an incentive, you know scratch my back and I scratch yours.Dont take my word for it use Websters.. Im still waiting for your fact that its illegal in Japan, since your Japanese please show me a link to it on a Japanese goverment site so I can be convinced. you would have to prove that its not, according to the two parties involved, just an incentive

Fourth, an earlier article stated that prostitutes were used to convince officials to vote for Japan. Just check google. And while you are at it please show proof that they weren't ladies of the night (yeah, this stupid 'show me proof' game works both ways!)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article7149091.ece One person said that call girls where available at the hotel. Not the Japanese goverment offered them for a vote. Still no real proof. Another who got caught trying to get money from a fake antiwhaling guy said good girls where at the hotel. Still no proof. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10358046.stm The whistle blower doesnt even mention whores.. Strange..

Like you, I'm neither pro nor anti whaling... but I am dead set against my government using my taxes for totally nefarious purposes. Are you ok with your taxes being used to pay for bribes (if you even live in Japan to begin with)?

Like I said I cant control where my taxes go here in Japan, I dont even get to vote. Im not going to try to say "Im Japanese" while spending my time on a gajin site using queens English like some try to do, but I am a PR holder and have been involved in Japan for the last 20 years so I got a feel for the place. If Japans taxes bothered me enough that I would rant and rave about how they spend them I would leave as I do not have the ability to control it (since I can not elect a govement into office).

All goverment is guilty of using its power, military, money, or resources to influence other countries. Do you complain that Japan uses tax money for people to buy a hybrid car? Or that they give tax breaks to companies to build in their area? Its all the same its a bribe.

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Edit.. you are Japanese.... not your Japanese and Its all the same according to you.. Not its all the same.

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kyoken - Isn't it time to cancel the expensive and inefficient IWC?

Protecting the whales could be handled by a number of other international institutes, for example the convention for bio diversity (CBD), convention of moving species (CMS) or Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (Cites).

Membership in the IWC is voluntary. Actual "whaling" nations created the commission and agreed to abide by its rules and regulations.

Which nations are going to give the same authority to any of the groups you've listed?

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The goverment gives your TAX money to them, or doesnt charge them for their share of TAXES so you are giving them money

Huh?

Its the internet you can be whoever you want to be but it doesnt mean I have to believe it

I'm a naturalized citizen who has lived here longer than I've lived anywhere else. In fact, I've raised a family here.

They are linked together because they are basically the same thing, it all depends on who is determining what it is..

Again, huh? And I'll state once again that I'm talking about buying prostitutes and giving cash to visiting IWC delegates. Quit trying to change the subject.

Im still waiting for your fact that its illegal in Japan,

What? Bribery? I'm not going to waste my time finding links for you. If you don't think thats a crime here I'll let you keep living in your dream world. You'll be much happier...

Like I said I cant control where my taxes go here in Japan, I dont even get to vote.

Shoganai ne! I guess you'd be fine with however your taxes are spent then. Including prostitutes?

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Zenny, I think religious group in an country is exempt from taxes. No?

thundercat, what was all that tax talk about? basically the tax payers have very little or no control over how the govt. spends the money. The charity the govt. makes from tax money is called ODA. Am I wrong? When officials go to evaluate the situation before giving the ODA, they get a lot of presents fom the country receiving the ODA. So this "buying the prostitutes" thing happens all over the world to get a lot of things done. And there are lot of people prostituting themselves (not necessarily in the literal sense) to get what they want.

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I am with wfw "Prostitution" don't have to involve sex.

Same way if you offer a lady Dinner/Movie/Luxury-Goods in exchange for Sex, it is also prostitution as you are compensating her for the Sex-offer.

In the end we all got our "price" and it can come in many different forms and values.

HTH.

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As for being offered "massages" ...

Guess we all know the different types of massages that are offered out there. And how easy it is to get offered a "Happy End".

HTH.

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It's funny to see irrational, recalcitrant behavior of some posters who seem to be driven by blubber mouths and gossips rather than the facts and investigation. No wonder the IWC meeting is a representative of a free market economic rhetoric--rather than environmental symposium.

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I'm not figuratively talking about buying prostitutes for delegates... I'm talking about the fact that they actually sent "good girls" (actual words of the delegate) to his hotel room for massages. Just do a search of "Japan bribery iwc with prostitutes" if you want some links to articles on the issue.

No, I'm not ok with this... this is not some shoganai situation... we do have a say in this.

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I'm not figuratively talking about buying prostitutes for delegates... I'm talking about the fact that they actually sent "good girls" (actual words of the delegate) to his hotel room for massages. Just do a search of "Japan bribery iwc with prostitutes" if you want some links to articles on the issue.

No, I'm not ok with this... this is not some shoganai situation... we do have a say in this

Shoganai or not doesnt matter. It is not illegal for a goverment to offer other goverments items or aid to secure votes. The whole giving them girls is a mute point since no one has actually proven the Japanese goverment hired whores for anyone. They only have a delegate stating he was offered them at a hotel paid for by the goverment. I know it happens in every country in the world, sex sells things nothing else can. But until they actually prove the goverment did buy whores we have to go with "innocent until proven guilty" .

Since you cant understand about grants and tax breaks for charities I wont waste time explaining it anymore...

Your whole arguement about the whores is based off of a delegate from a third world country who in your words "took a bribe" and when approached by another person who tried to bribe him again he stated Japan bribed us and offered good girls? even though he didnt say Japan offered him good girls he said "The IWC commissioner for Tanzania said “good girls” were made available at the hotels for ministers and senior fisheries civil servants during all-expenses paid trips to Japan. ". Ive had that happen in a lot of countries I have been to. In fact I had been to China for my work (work paid for the hotel) and the hotel offered me a hooker. Does that mean China was trying to bribe me? Maybe my work was?

Your either trying to hard to prove something that isnt there or your trolling...

I guess in the end all I can say about your logic on this is muchakucha ne!!

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The top fisheries official for Guinea said Japan usually gave his minister a “minimum” of $1,000 a day spending money in cash during IWC and other fisheries meetings.

The Sunday Times filmed officials from pro-whaling governments admitting:

They voted with the whalers because of the large amounts of aid from Japan. One said he was not sure if his country had any whales in its territorial waters. Others are landlocked. — They receive cash payments in envelopes at IWC meetings from Japanese officials who pay their travel and hotel bills. One disclosed that call girls were offered when fisheries ministers and civil servants visited Japan for meetings.

Similar stories were also reported by CBS news, Business Insider, ABC news just to name a few...

Delegate from Tanzania, Mr. Nanyaro, who was offered prostitutes comments:

Reporter: So you think the other countries’ representatives are set up with prostitutes from Japan? Nanyaro: Yes, you know, yeah ... It starts by saying: do you want massaging? ... It’s going to be free massaging. Are you not lonely? You don’t want any comfort?”

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Cash in envelopes and prostitutes... what kind of aid is that?

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thundercat at 10:59 PM JST - 24th June Similar stories were also reported by CBS news, Business Insider, ABC >news just to name a few...

They all emanated from the same sunday Times story.

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It also revived doubts about the effectiveness and future of the IWC. The agency was created after WWII to oversee the hunting of tens of thousands of whales a year. However, IWC needs to make drastic changes in next few years or it may become very serious because they already lost credibility with all other nations. IWC has to function, however, they are currently in need of complete evaluation.

Japanese officials and environmentalists are extemely stubborn people. Japan, which kills the majority of whales, insists its hunt is for scientific research, which everybody knows that these whale meat and whale products end up in Japanese restaurants than in laboratories.

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Hrm?

Japanese officials and environmentalists are extemely stubborn people.

Did you read the Whaling Commissioner(New Zealand) praising Japan for being flexible and willing to talk, etc.

Right now I think the most stubborn people in the IWC are those that demand that ALL whaling ends.

Japan offered to reduce their whale-catches, etc , personally I don't think that as stubborn.

Just my view.

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They all emanated from the same sunday Times story.

If the story didn't have legs no other news publication would have picked it up. Almost every story ever worth reading is first published from one source.

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thundercat at 02:15 PM JST - 25th June

If the story didn't have legs no other news publication would have picked it up. Almost every story ever worth reading is first published from one source.

And yet again it doesnt say the goverment of Japan bought whores for anyone. It states a massage girl, or any other name they want to use for whore, was available at the hotel...

You must not have travelled much outside of the internet, most hotels in Japan have the ability to bring love you long time girls to the room. When, no let me say that the right way, IF you can show the goverment of Japan has bought and delivered a call girl to any of the IWC delegates then you can say so, until then your holding crap in one had and nothing in the other but saying its the smoking gun of proof.

A story doesnt have to be truthful nor right to have legs, in fact the more out there it is the better it sells...

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Nonews, I thought your original argument was that it didn't matter that the government wastes tax money buying prostitutes for IWC diplomats because there is nothing we can do about it... then it was personal attacks against me... and now its a denial that the event even took place...

As far as not knowing who exactly paid for the call girls... well, I'll guarantee that it wasn't just some freebie for patronizing the hotel. It doesn't really matter though does it? Unless you have video evidence in your hands you'll never believe a word of it... ignorance is bliss, eh?

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Thundercat..

Read dont think and you wont go so far from the statements other write.

Never said its ok to buy a whore. I said the whole way through you cant make the goverment not use the tax money to give incentives to countries to get them on their side. Its not illegal at all.

I also said since we have no real proof about the goverment buying whores we should not jump so fast to the balame Japan crap that you seem to want to do.

You can look through the post and copy paste where I said they can buy whores with tax money, and also where I said any of the other stuff you say.. Of course you cant because like the article you didnt read you created and have made a new story from what was posted.

I also never personally attacked you at all, I dont know you. I said this beint the internet you can be who ever you say you are... I just hold the opinion that most people talk so much smack about who they are I tend no to believe it. Only way it was personal is if you are the internet troll who tries to be who he isnt.....

And yes ignorance is bliss in a democratic court system. In order to be guilty it has to be beyond a doubt and right now you have nothing to proof such... Nice try but your not going to win in a public forum nor a court with I feel this and I feel that...

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thundercat - Similar stories were also reported by CBS news, Business Insider, ABC news just to name a few...

Hahahaha - Copy and Paste journalism at it's finest. You have a single story, which has been denied by the victims of the story and an "alleged" video. Why hasn't this video surfaced? What possible reason do they have for not publishing it?

thundercat - If the story didn't have legs no other news publication would have picked it up. Almost every story ever worth reading is first published from one source.

HAHAHAHA - Other media outlets could have verified the story or had their own reporters interview the parties involved. Repeating the exact same story over and over again isn't journalism, it's parroting.

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Zenny11,"Did you read the Whaling Commissioner(New Zealand) praising Japan for being flexible and willing to talk, etc."

Oh did you read New Zealand is now considering joining Australia's claim in the ICJ? Or did you read the deal? Japan was not willing to give up its hunts in Antarctic waters, & it wanted to be allowed coastal whaling, so therefore continue with the status quoe, & then be allowed more concessions, + overturn a moratorium that has been in place & the rest of the world bar 3 has abided by for 25yrs? A moratorium that has been clled the most successful international conservation act ever! Yet Japan for its own personal reasons believes it should be overturned just for it?

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KeikoTokyo - Japan was not willing to give up its hunts in Antarctic waters, it wanted to be allowed coastal whaling, so therefore continue with the status quoe, then be allowed more concessions, overturn a moratorium that has been in place the rest of the world bar 3 has abided by for 25yrs?

What!?!? Japan wants coastal whaling? Are you saying that Japan hasn't been allowed to take whales off their own coast and have been whaling in international waters because of the unreasonable, uncompromising attitudes of the NGO's and anti-whaling zealots? Apparently, they HAVE been abiding by the IWC decisions.

Japan plus the U.S. and other more reasonable IWC members were willing to accept a compromise agreement that would have reduce the numbers of whales taken annually but the animal-rights, anti-whaling zealots refuse to accept that. The WWF has been bribing IWC members for 30 years and they seem to under the impression that they are close to their goal of ending whaling thru the IWC. What seems to go over their head is the fact that without the IWC, every nation is free to set their own limits.

You can bend a branch only so far before it breaks. just sayin'.

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arrestpaul;"You can bend a branch only so far before it breaks. just sayin'."

Oh so you are saying any nation/NGO can go out & bribe to do as it wishes? Or maybe you are saying the rest of the world is the branch that has bent, so therefore it is about to snap at a country embaressing itself, hunting in a designated sanctuary, so if they continue to do so... well as you said;"SNAP", & on a global level...

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KeikoTokyo at 02:49 AM JST - 27th June Oh so you are saying any nation/NGO can go out & bribe to do as it >wishes?

They already do. That's how thw the Moratorium got voted in.

Or maybe you are saying the rest of the world is the branch that has >bent, so therefore it is about to snap at a country embaressing itself, >hunting in a designated sanctuary, so if they continue to do so... well >as you said;"SNAP", & on a global level...

Can we put this "hunting in a designated sanctuary" crap on he bsck burner by now? Even you know by now that the IWC regulations permit any member to conduct Scientific Research Whaling and exempts them from recognizing Moratoriums and Sanctuaries. At the Agadir conference the IWC , moderate anti-whaling nations, Japan, even the WWF, Greempeace, PEG, all supported a proposal that would have ended that. Yet the hardcore anti-whaling fanatics did not allow this to happen. So why are you even talking about it now? Australia, Argentina, the non-compromising nations, the Whales & Dolphins Conservation Society, with their stubborn behavior ensured that Scientific Research Whaling can and will continue.

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Never said its ok to buy a whore.

I never tried to put those words in your mouth. You said it didn't matter what the government spent our taxes on because we have no control over it. I said it does matter.

I also never personally attacked you at all

You said I had no right to complain because I wasn't Japanese (which I am) and that I should go back to where ever it was I came from if I had a problem about how my taxes were being spent. Sure sounds like a personal attack to me.

So, I provided the sources I was citing in my argument. Its your turn. Show me an article that proves that Japanese officials didn't bribe IWC delegates.

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KeikoTokyo at 01:17 AM JST - 27th June Zenny11,"Did you read the Whaling Commissioner(New Zealand) praising >Japan for being flexible and willing to talk, etc." Oh did you read New Zealand is now considering joining Australia's claim >in the ICJ?

Give it up. New Zealamd is NOT going to join Australia's didiculous ICJ claim. If it had merit New Zealand would have done so at the outset. Furthermore New Zealand wouldn't be backing giving the IWC abother year to resolve the issue if their intent was to join Australia. THey made the statement, or rather simply repeated the same one from months ago to pre-empt the ant-whaling faction dometically.

Or did you read the deal? Japan was not willing to give up its hunts in >Antarctic waters, & it wanted to be allowed coastal whaling, so >therefore continue with the status quoe,

No that's wrong. Japan doesn't conduct coatal whaling operations now so that's not a status quo.

& then be allowed more concessions,

What "more concessions" Name them.

overturn a moratorium that has been in place & the rest of the world >bar 3 has abided by for 25yrs? A moratorium that has been clled the most >successful international conservation act ever! Yet Japan for its own >personal reasons believes it should be overturned just for it?

You need to be corrected gain. "Overturning he moratorium" is not a demand made by Japan. It's a propsal made by the IWC originating from the Chairman. THe IWC considered allowing limited commercial whaling while closing the "loopholes" would sabe more whales. They were correct, and the vast mahority of the moderate anti-whaling nations understood and agreed with this. Only the stubborn anti-whaling zealot nations destroyed the chance of the proposal being accepted, thereby keeping all current "loopholes" open and killing more whales.

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KeikoTokyo at 02:49 AM JST - 27th June

arrestpaul;"You can bend a branch only so far before it breaks. just sayin'."

Oh so you are saying any nation/NGO can go out bribe to do as it wishes? Or maybe you are saying the rest of the world is the branch that has bent, so therefore it is about to snap at a country embaressing itself, hunting in a designated sanctuary, so if they continue to do so... well as you said;"SNAP", on a global level...

I'm saying that your side, the anti-whaling side, has been undermining the democratic process of the only internationally recognized whaling conservation organization for 30 years. Whaling nations voluntarily ceeded their national authority concerning whaling to the IWC. They can all withdraw at any time.

The current hardline stance of the anti-whalers has brought negotiations to a stand still. They seem to be under the impression that the IWC exists to prevent ALL whaling and will be able to prevent ALL whaling in the future. They're wrong.

It's getting to the point where the IWC may not exist a year from now. SNAP. All nations will then create their own rules, regulations and limits.

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Sorry but your point isnt valid and wont be, until you can prove the goverment bought whores with tax money your claims are BS. You have the burden of proof in this matter, I didnt accuse them of doing anything.

Sorry you take offence to the fact that just because you post something on the internet doesnt mean I have to believe it. I have lived with the strugles to get NC for the last 20 years with my wives family. I know how hard it is to get and I also know most dont get it. But maybe you did better then some who have been here for generations and read, write, and speak native... Maybe,but I still dont think so. Thats not a insult to anyone that just the hard cold fact that Japan doesnt give NC very easy.I also think people who come to this country tend to forget their original countries are doing the same crap, but they like to whine about Japan because????? I guess they just like to whine, or maybe they think they need to type English somewhere, or maybe noone listens to them when they speak so they go to the internet to voice up... My point is simple, if you dont like the way Japan runs things and your not from here originally, then go home and see its the same there..... Dont fall into the grass is always greener on the other side BS...

On a side note, you should look at the forest once and awhile instead of focusing on one tree. You would see that maybe the guys making the claims did so because they got caught trying to bribe someone for more money? Or maybe it happened the way they say? The information given in this story and in the original story do not have enough evidence to say it actually happened. No article or information has been secured that says the Japanese goverment bought hookers to bribe anyone. No matter how much some want the article to say such it just doesnt. It may lead you to think that but it doesnt state it... Sorry it just isnt the smoking gun..

Im done responding to you as I truely dont want to go on and on with this. You see it as something, I see it different. I told you before I dont care if Japan whales or not. You can look at my post and see I dont post on whaling one way or another, can you say the same for yourself? I do care that people dont bypass the legal system and convict someone or a country without having the actual proof to do so.. That is why I posted on this... Not because of whales

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I have to laugh at many of these posts!

Aww, just because its in the pepers dosent make it true!

Your so right, but that along with the other evidence over the last 20 years, which would stack wall to ceiling...proves it is so.

Japan blatently continues to brutally slaughter thousands of whales and dolphins in the most horrific manner possible EVERY year, including the fact they go 2,000 miles into a protected area to kill whales that was set aside to assist the whale population to recover from the decimation by greed, of which japan was one of the main perpetrators, not so long ago. That is arrogence and a discusting display of total ignorance by the government of japan.

Stop skirting around the truth here... Whales and dolphins eat fish, Japan will NOT and NEVER will be prepared to compromise it's multi billion dollar fishing industy, nor it's love affair with fish for whales and dolphins.

They see whales and dolphins as stealing the fish from their plates and have set about wiping as many as they can from the oceans, and forever lobby to get more.

It is not a "scientific" program, it is an "eradication" program.

When I see the whales swim by my town on their yearly migration, i am in awe, the japanese government reminds me how low humans can actually go!

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