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Japan's top court says gov't restrictions on transgender employee's use of restrooms illegal

92 Comments
By MARI YAMAGUCHI

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The judges said in a unanimous ruling that the Economy and Trade Ministry'

So that office that supposed in charge of Japan economy and trade for the future still stuck in the past culturally?

-21 ( +7 / -28 )

The funny thing is that Japan used to have all gender bathrooms in train stations. I remember going into a toilet in GaienMae station, Ginza line. It had urinals and cubicles. after using the urinal, I was surprised to see a girl washing her hands. So I checked the sign at the entrance of the bathroom. It was labeled for both men and women.

24 ( +32 / -8 )

Firstly, this isn't a boon for the rights of the LGB and Q in this acronym - in fact it appears to have nothing to do with them. It's a Trans issue, and somehow they all keep getting lumped in together. In fact, so much of this contemporary debate seems to be about Trans rights only, that I'm really starting to see why so many LGB folk would like to decouple from the acronym altogether.

Secondly, it appears that there are a fairly large number of women who are not comfortable having a biological male sharing their bathrooms, regardless of the circumstances, so I wonder how their rights are being positioned in this debate, and ruling in this case? Do they matter at all, or are their feelings completely irrelevant? Because we are talking about 50% of the population here.

Time for a 3rd bathroom classification perhaps?

Early morning coffee ruminations....

35 ( +47 / -12 )

Wow. Japan leaping into the 2020s, and I don't mean that to be snide: many countries are stuck in the 1920s or earlier.

-21 ( +14 / -35 )

From what I hear, it's women who object to non-women entering their space. Men probably couldn't care less. So why don't they just use the men's? They are men, after all, no matter what they are dressed up as.

29 ( +53 / -24 )

From what I hear, it's women who object to non-women entering their space.

From what I hear, it's mainly transphobes that object.

They are men, after all, no matter what they are dressed up as

Yeah, and how is that to be enforced? I think people should just mind their own business, and just let people be.

-27 ( +14 / -41 )

This ruling also implies that male bodied people should be permitted to use female area in the onsens.

Rulings don’t ‘imply’.

1 ( +12 / -11 )

wonder why this person doesn't want to show face.

-7 ( +18 / -25 )

if she's female, how did anyone even think that the (nearby) female toilet was inapproprite? or does she not look female. without a face foto, impossible to know what's going on really.

-10 ( +14 / -24 )

“the only member of the Group of Seven industrialized nations where same-sex marriage is not legal.”

Legalizing same-sex marriage has nothing to do with granting a 50-year-old trans access to female bathrooms. I’m afraid the Supreme Court’s ruling has opened the Pandora’s box.

13 ( +26 / -13 )

It seems they are trampling on the rights of biological woman who want to feel safe in their environment.

2020hindsights

“funny thing is that Japan used to have all gender bathrooms in train stations”

Yes they still have these but they are separate from the men’s and women’s toilets. These rooms have a door with a button you push to open it and close it? it’s also used by the handicapped. Again these toilets are not apart of the regular men’s and women’s.

4 ( +18 / -14 )

This ruling also implies that male bodied people should be permitted to use female area in the onsens.

Most women in Japan would likely not be comfortable in a hot spring with a naked unfamiliar transgender woman (born male).

24 ( +34 / -10 )

Seems to me that every public bathroom I have been in, one's in office buildings as well, ALL have private stalls for both men and women to use, so it's not like folks are showing off their private bits and making others feel embarrassed.

When ya' gotta go, ya' gotta go! I dont give two craps about the person next to me washing their hands, being a man or a woman.

Grow up! Seems to me like Japan has been growing a generation of ignorant prudes! The same prudes who are probably buying the plastic wrapped magazines from their local convenience store!

-17 ( +12 / -29 )

I’m afraid the Supreme Court’s ruling has opened the Pandora’s box.

A slippery slope? How quaint.

1 ( +13 / -12 )

I worry about trans women using the women's restroom. Your biological sex, your sexual identity, and your gender identity are different. You can be born a biological male, identify as a female (transgen), and be heterosexual, meaning you are attracted to women. So a trans-female can be attracted to women. Not good news in a woman's restroom, public bath (sento), or changing room at a swimming pool. Oh, and PS: I'm totally gay.

8 ( +22 / -14 )

This is beyond stupidity. First how does the is toilet issue effect gays, lesbians, and bi-sexual. It has nothing to do with this self imposed group (LBG). So it only concerns humans with gender recognition identification. It concerns mature humans having to relieve themself while in the public domain. If you can recognise that you have a gender problem your should be mature enough to realise that all genders need to receive themself at work or during travel and you being the person with gender recognition problem should be mature enough to allow such a use of gender made toilets. The construction of these two toilets have a difference. One of these two allows for people who have the ability to urinate standing in a hygienic manner but still have cubicles for both sitting and standing. So the issue is not the toilets. It the stupidity applied to use these toilets by certain self-centred peoples that is the problem.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

I’m afraid the Supreme Court’s ruling has opened the Pandora’s box.

A slippery slope? How quaint.

Yeah. The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy meant to shut down any action on a measure by stoking a fear that said action can only lead to some "inevitable" extreme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

There's a reason it's called a fallacy.

-5 ( +14 / -19 )

So a trans-female can be attracted to women. Not good news in a woman's restroom, public bath (sento), or changing room at a swimming pool

Have you never heard of lesbians?

-9 ( +15 / -24 )

if she's female, how did anyone even think that the (nearby) female toilet was inapproprite? or does she not lookfemale. without a face foto, impossible to know what's going on really.

I imagine his co-workers have worked with him from before his 'transition' - they know what he is.

8 ( +20 / -12 )

I imagine his co-workers have worked with him from before his 'transition' - they know what he is.

She. The correct pronoun is she.

-31 ( +10 / -41 )

 I worry about trans women using the women's restroom. Your biological sex, your sexual identity, and your gender identity are different. 

Why? Why do you "worry?" How does their sexuality affect you when you need to use the bathroom? You the voyeur type who looks down the shirts of women, or takes pictures up their skirts on escalators?

Use your brain, how they pee, standing up or sitting down, BEHIND a freaking CLOSED DOOR in a bathroom!

It's all on you! It's your insecurity, it's your "feelings" and it's just being immature and unwilling to accept differences in people!

-17 ( +9 / -26 )

John-SanToday 07:56 am JST

This is beyond stupidity. First how does the is toilet issue effect gays, lesbians, and bi-sexual.

Because Trans rights are human rights and everyone should support human rights.

Hope that answers your question.

-31 ( +14 / -45 )

Also, pretty sure the article should read "transgender woman," not transgender female. It's confusing sex and gender.

-3 ( +13 / -16 )

@girl_in_tokyo

All this does is pave the way to allowing people to use the correct bathroom for their gender.

I’m curious. In your opinion, should this also pave the way to allowing people to use the correct onsen for their gender?

13 ( +19 / -6 )

gokai_wo_manekuToday 07:53 am JST

I worry about trans women using the women's restroom.

I don't worry about it any more than I worry about lesbians using the women's restroom.

Your biological sex, your sexual identity, and your gender identity are different.

All sex is biological, so that term is redundant.

You can be born a biological male, identify as a female (transgen), and be heterosexual, meaning you are attracted to women. So a trans-female can be attracted to women. Not good news in a woman's restroom, public bath (sento), or changing room at a swimming pool.

Lesbians use these, as do bisexuals - and as bisexual woman who is attracted to women, I utterly resent the implication that I am somehow a danger to straight women.

Transwomen should not be treated as if they are inherently a danger, either.

-24 ( +11 / -35 )

She. The correct pronoun is she.

More than likely the "correct" pronoun that they use to identify themselves is "they"!

Thing is though, here in Japan, pronouns, while "available" in the Japanese language, are not used all that often, in fact using them, depending upon the situation, written or verbally, can be seen as being crude, and rude.

This choice of "pronouns" is really an American thing.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

I’m curious. In your opinion, should this also pave the way to allowing people to use the correct onsen for their gender?

This one is probably next on the "bucket" list of court decisions that the community wants dealt with.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Firstly, this isn't a boon for the rights of the LGB and Q in this acronym - in fact it appears to have nothing to do with them. It's a Trans issue, and somehow they all keep getting lumped in together. In fact, so much of this contemporary debate seems to be about Trans rights only, that I'm really starting to see why so many LGB folk would like to decouple from the acronym altogether.

Secondly, it appears that there are a fairly large number of women who are not comfortable having a biological male sharing their bathrooms, regardless of the circumstances, so I wonder how their rights are being positioned in this debate, and ruling in this case? Do they matter at all, or are their feelings completely irrelevant? Because we are talking about 50% of the population here.

Time for a 3rd bathroom classification perhaps?

Early morning coffee ruminations....

Hear Hear

2 ( +16 / -14 )

If they are born a male and have a penis please use the male toilet or disabled private one.

If women are uncomfortable with transexual males using their toilet then they should be listened to.

I am tired of all this pronoun politics gender specific nonsense.

34 ( +45 / -11 )

If the person is proud of what they are why not let the media publish their name?

14 ( +22 / -8 )

Japan should definitely move in the liberal direction but slowly in order to not upset society as has happened in other places.

-12 ( +3 / -15 )

Trans women use public female bathrooms everyday, we (as in society) just don’t notice. It’s only the ones who are totally not passable that get called out on it because some old lady with nothing better to do than complain.

-12 ( +8 / -20 )

This is a 'too hard' problem for everyone, so eventually everyone will pay the price for it. In Australia's last central government election there was a candidate in Sydney that sought to protect women sport, she was cancelled by the media and the left and fail to win a safe seat.

No body gained anything, and women sport is worse off because of it, but the ideologically inclined got their win. They put up rights of women in sport vs sexual identity, divided the community and gained nothing. You couldn't make this stuff up, other than to think it's a deceitful foreign interference play, but it's not it's domestic politics to divide.

16 ( +18 / -2 )

I have no objection in a transgender person using the cubical next to in the restroom.

I would object in the strongest possible terms if non transitioned individuals enter women and young girls only changing rooms.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Trans rights are not human rights. It's modern degeneracy and we should stop pandering to these weirdos.

16 ( +27 / -11 )

Why is it that it is usually men who are pushing for the rights of transwomen to act as they wish, and anyone who expresses a female point of view is promptly silenced and ridiculed? Women make up over 50% of the population, and are the ones who will directly affected, so their opinion shouldn't be simply ignored. But I guess women don't matter any more. Welcome to Misogyny version 2.0, the brand-new 21st century version!

15 ( +23 / -8 )

Men, Women and Other. Three toilets.

18 ( +19 / -1 )

Why is it that it is usually men who are pushing for the rights of transwomen to act as they wish, and anyone who expresses a female point of view is promptly silenced and ridiculed? Women make up over 50% of the population, and are the ones who will directly affected, so their opinion shouldn't be simply ignored. But I guess women don't matter any more. Welcome to Misogyny version 2.0, the brand-new 21st century version!

Right. The whole trans agenda is SO incredibly and blatantly disrespectful of actual women.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

All people should have the right to live their lives in society based on their own sexual identities,” the plaintiff said after the ruling. “The significance of that should not be reduced to the usage of toilets or public baths.”

 

And how are women going to feel when they see you- with a penis between your legs- sharing a public bath with them?

24 ( +27 / -3 )

Kishida insists that public views vary on same-sex marriage, and that its legal recognition would have a broad impact on society and therefore must be discussed carefully.

 

And it should be put to a vote and not determined by the courts. If the pro  LGBTQ+ people feel they have the votes, there should be no problem. But they know, they don’t have the votes.

18 ( +21 / -3 )

easy solution.make toilets unisex for both males and females.

problem solved.

no science no meeting no meaningless talk and discussion needed.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

Disabled toilets are used by all.

16 ( +19 / -3 )

Anicerainbow

And how are women going to feel when they see you- with a penis between your legs- sharing a public bath with them?

They don't have public baths in the toilets.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

A good compromise would be if they use the nowadays available third toilets, which just now should be called minority toilets so everyone out from a minority can use them, like the disabled, people with wheelchairs, mothers with toddlers or seniors fir changing diapers and like in this case transgender people of any direction. It’s just not pleasant or maybe even dangerous for women if they see male people with still their ‘thing’ and only slightly dressed as a woman, which might be an invitation fir rapers who only cover their intentions with wearing a skirt and putting some lipstick on. Of course after an operation, eg a real genitalia change, the transgender people can use the woman’s toilets like they surely use already now without any problems or anyone else even notices.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

A guy wearing a dress wants to use woman's room. The facts of the case. Absurd.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

People do not expose their body parts in female toilets.

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

They don't have public baths in the toilets.

Did you read the quote?

*All people should have the right to live their lives in society based on their own sexual identities,” the plaintiff said after the ruling. “The significance of that should not be reduced to the usage of toilets o*r public baths.”

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Gokai_wo_maneku :

You can be born a biological male, identify as a female (transgen), and be heterosexual, meaning you are attracted to women. So a trans-female can be attracted to women. Not good news in a woman's restroom, public bath (sento), or changing room at a swimming pool. 

A lot of straight men and boys also feel uncomfortable with gay men using public bathrooms, or sento, seeing as they are potentially attracted to - and hitting on - straight males using the facilities.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Trans rights are not human rights.

Of course they are. ‘Human’ includes everybody born.

Japanese ‘democracy’ is still new. US democracy is only 100 years old but things changed for the better. Japan will do so also.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

In Japan, transexuals have to be 20 years and older.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/05/25/japan-new-momentum-reform-transgender-law

2 ( +6 / -4 )

PharaohChromiumToday 09:29 am JST

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_characteristics#Humans

Look at the list under Secondary Sexual Characteristics and tell me you can identify a male based on more than that because all of that is manipulable with puberty blockers and hormone replacement.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Transgenders include male and female and also gender neutral. Not just transwomen.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Personally, as a man, I hate using public bathrooms in Japan unless I really really need to go. No dividers between the urinals like in the US. Walk in and guys are just peeing with their junk out in plain sight. I’d be more concerned about any gay man being able to walk in there and try to check me out lol. But I’m not that banal. Women bathrooms only have stalls, it’s not like you’re going to see anything. Grow up people.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

If women don’t care that biological men are in their restrooms and changing rooms then I don’t.

women need to step up and claim womanhood. Or not.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

I’d be more concerned about any gay man being able to walk in there and try to check me out lol.

I've had men check me out at the urinal in Japan, sometimes quite blatantly.

It bothered me not much, other than to be shocked at how audacious they were. "よく見れた?"

I also am fine with my junk hanging out at the onsen.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Birth Certificates and Toilets etc. should just use these descriptions

Born with Penis / Born with Vagina

6 ( +14 / -8 )

I've had men check me out at the urinal in Japan, sometimes quite blatantly.

It bothered me not much, other than to be shocked at how audacious they were. "よく見れた?"

I also am fine with my junk hanging out at the onsen.

As a man I've had the same experience. All men have. Not just in Japan, but very common overseas.

No major issue for me as an adult male, but certainly a different story if/when it happens to an 8 year old boy in that bathroom or onsen.

Gay guys can - potentially- be just as much a threat in male public facilities as transgender people using female facilities.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

I do find it rather interesting that it seems the progressive commentators on here are a tad bit hypocritical, they think Biological men who dress as women should be able to invade biological women’s spaces, but they get so upset when biological men take up skirt photos.

The Trans movement is so disrespectful to woman. It’s sad to see this happening to biological woman!

I seriously doubt some of these same progressive commentators would allow a trans woman who hasn’t fully transitioned to be in the same toilet or locker room as their own children especially their daughters.

Anyone who is paying attention to what this movement has done in the states knows it doesn’t end well for biological woman and girls.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

Well it will be fun! Next headline will be:

Man claiming to be transgender caught recording women in the women's toilet!

Read carefully I wrote "man claiming" not an actual transgender!

Because if we know one thing about these type, is they use any chance, take jobs, use tricks, etc... To do these things.

They are not beyond using Transgender right or access to further their obsession.

Sadly we all know this even if plenty here refuse to admit it, think how many times we read about a teacher placing a camera in the girls room, camera's placed in a shoe to record under women's skirts, etc..

If you think these type of guys will not jump at a new chance, then think again.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

I really don't see how this is a victory for gays, lesbians and bisexuals. It's a victory for males who identify themselves as females.

8 ( +14 / -6 )

Blacklabel

Today 09:38 am JST

If women don’t care that biological men are in their restrooms and changing rooms then I don’t.

> women need to step up and claim womanhood. Or not

They do and it was clear and they did step up.

The new building in ikebururo created unisex toilets.

It did not go over well and women refused to use them.

In the end a separation was created and full remodeling will be done creating men's and women's toilets

3 ( +11 / -8 )

Oh wow, let’s just push the blame onto the behavior of some hypothetical gay men instead.

That’s a winner in 2023! /s

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

I am tired of all this pronoun politics gender specific nonsense.

Being optimistic, this is the only LGBT-related article you'll find in the news today, and probably the whole week.

It's not like in the West where everyone is programmed by the mainstream media to be obsessed about gays and transgenderism causes, which is quite awkward... from ALL the issues so many different people face everyday (veterans, orphans, human trafficking victims, the disabled, etc.) but this seems to be the utmost priority for some reason....

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Roy,

Interesting point. I went to a very liberal arts university and there were more than a few trans students. Really wouldn’t have known had they not been so honest with everyone. I think the transphobes are confusing men in drag to transgender women who often go through hormone therapy from a young age. Two different things.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Roy Sophveason

Today 09:52 am JST

think how many times we read about a teacher placing a camera in the girls room, camera's placed in a shoe to record under women's skirts, etc..

> You're making the perfect case that sex offenders don't need to be transgender, and don't need the permission to enter women's bathrooms, to do their sex offending

Really?

How explain? A teacher uses his position to gain access.

As it stands if a man goes into the women's toilet, changing room, etc.. security/ police will be called.

But if you accept the view of many on gender identity, then no problem any man can say " I identify as a woman" and gain access.

I am pointing out we will be facilitating easier access.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Ummm, just use the handicapped bathrooms. No need to take this to court. Problem solved.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

I'm supportive of gender identity, pronouns, etc. However you wish to live your life is fine with me. But I'm afraid I lean on the side of using a multi-purpose restroom for now if necessary. There is no reason to make so many others feel uncomfortable in such a private setting.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

First off a phobia is fear, No one is afraid of a trans person their are upset that these individuals who claim to be trans are abusing this as a means of harming biological woman’s rights and in many cases just trying to be perverted in front of woman and children

-1 ( +8 / -9 )

But grown women are okay? You know female pedophiles exist, right? By all accounts probably more than transwomen pedophiles.

Anyone can claim to be transgender. Literally a free pass for pedos and pervs to enter womens toilets.

The only solution imo, is to make all toilets unisex with proper cubicles and a wide open area for handwashing.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Those that think certain men will not take advantage of this here is what is already happening elsewhere.

This guy (6-foot-2, 260-pound) openly admitted he (no not she) sits around the sorority and is ", aroused" by the other women living in what was previously all biological female.

https://nypost.com/2023/05/16/university-of-wyoming-sorority-sisters-say-they-live-in-fear-of-trans-member/amp/

1 ( +8 / -7 )

To all men here saying having a biological man in womens toilet is fine because there are individual cubicles.

90% of sexual assaults complaints happen in "unisex" facilities. UK statistics that you can find here: https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

This is why single sex spaces exist. This is to protect girls and women from voyeurs, assaults at a time when they are vulnerable.

Sure women are not naked in toilets, but they can be alone there are vulnerable: they might be having heavy period, cramps, miscarriage, or simply stain their clothes and try to wash it away.

Some women and girls also enter toilets to escape annoying men.

It is a safe space. At least it was until this ruling.

6 ( +14 / -8 )

The court decision and the article is about Japan with its strict transgender laws and not what happens in other countries.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

one_consciousness

Today 10:23 am JST

Transphobia consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence or anger towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations.

Strange haven't seen any of that here but the term has been tossed around a lot!

And then we have the LGBTQIA 2 etc. That officially say transphobia includes refusing to date a transgender. Or is that included in the

negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender

Is that what they mean, because I or some other heterosexual man wouldn't dare a transgender that consists " negative attitude" ?

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Apparently if a biological heterosexual man or woman outright refuses to consider dating a transgender, that is Transphobic.

If a gay man refuses to date a transgender man, that is transphobic.

If a lesbian refused to date a transgender woman that is transphobic.

None of this is transphobic.

I am not the one saying this, this is the official stance of the transgender community.

lol Really? Is this Official press release statement from the Transgender Community?

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Gender is a social construct,

Only in the minds of those that refuse to see facts and reality!

2 ( +11 / -9 )

Gender is a social construct,

The people that made this claim are sociologist, psychiatrists and psychologists.

And any factual look at the history of these 3 so-called professions one will notice they have on average a 99% failure rate on all their " theories" and treatments/solutions.

Yes I am not joking, 99% of treatments, theories, social projects have been complete failures.

They changed or come up with a new thing more often than they change their underwear.

As a child I had ADHD, ASD ( well still do) I was subjected to more "treatments" theories " than you can possibly imagine and those are just the ones my parents accepted to try the rest were so off the charts of reality they refused.

Today not a single one of the so-called treatments are even permitted as they caused more damage than doing nothing.

And I suspect in a decade or so the chickens will come home to roost and the damage being done now will be irreversible fur many especially the children that are being "treated" today.

1 ( +9 / -8 )

Gender is a social construct

An opinion you’re expressing as fact. How many genders do you think there are, to the nearest dozen?

3 ( +8 / -5 )

I simply struggle to accept what could be construed as provoking politically motivated belligerent intent to divide society when women have a legitimate social concern and grievance.

For a man a stranger dressed as a woman, his male genitalia, nature provided him at birth still fully intact waving in front of women and yes children in women only safe spaces should be acceptable when such a scenario causes such uncomfortable embarrassment is simply intolerable....

2 ( +7 / -5 )

“I am more than happy that a transgender person (male by birth) goes to the same public toilet as my daughter.”

You have the right to allow this for your own children but you don’t have a right to push this onto others children. Period!

I’m curious does this include if they haven’t fully transitioned and still have a penis?

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

@girl_in_tokyo

You eagerly jump to respond to other commenters, but avoid my simple question, repeated below.

Your comment: All this does is pave the way to allowing people to use the correct bathroom for their gender. 

My question: I’m curious. In your opinion, should this also pave the way to allowing people to use the correct onsen for their gender?

1 ( +9 / -8 )

For a man a stranger dressed as a woman, his male genitalia, nature provided him at birth still fully intact waving in front of women and yes children in women only safe spaces should be acceptable when such a scenario causes such uncomfortable embarrassment is simply intolerable....

I believe women’s toilets are cubicles. I don’t imagine there is much public ‘waving’ of anything.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Well, yeah, that's how science works

Obviously you don't know how science works.

No medical treatment is released until properly tested and approved.

No such thing exists in these 3 to be exact, the testing of their theories are done without and agency's approval needed.

In the case of transgenders children, no studies, no peer review, nothing, everything is completely theoretical by certain advocates and no debate is permitted.

Even suggesting a proper study before putting these ideas into practice it met by " you are transphobic" " you are killing them"!

Don't believe me, just watch a few of these people in interview, in Congressional hearings, you cannot even ask for facts they will do like many here call the person transphobic and make claims that are not based on scientific facts, peer review studies, longer term effects, etc..but in pure theory they like.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

Asiaman7Today  11:12 am JST

You eagerly jump to respond to other commenters, but avoid my simple question, repeated below.

You're right as it seems to be the prominant trend in that community! Some call it cherry picking! I call it "fact-phobia"!

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

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