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Japan's hunt for minke whales resume in coastal areas off Hokkaido

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So I guess we will be seeing more whale meat in the local supermarket shortly?

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Disgusting. So hellbent on getting approval from overseas via their shameless UNESCO grabs and yet completely ignore the overseas outcries about this abhorrent act? Outrageous

8 ( +24 / -16 )

Since restarting commercial whaling in July for the first time in 31 years, the government has set a quota of 53 minke whales through late December to prevent overhunting, with 33 of them allocated for coastal whaling.

Only 53 whales? So, please tell me why they had a quota of 1,000 whales for their BS research in the southern ocean? This really boils my blood! They can sustain a commercial hunt and feed the small market for the meat with less than a hundred whales per year. Yet, they cried victim when SS interfered with their goal to kill 1,000 whales for research every year. They are just a bunch of two-faced scumbags! Seriously!

5 ( +20 / -15 )

Only 53 whales? So, please tell me why they had a quota of 1,000 whales for their BS research in the southern ocean? This really boils my blood! 

How many did they actually kill for “research?” That was the quota but did they reach it? Just asking for information.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

It's said that Japan catches about 3000 tons of whales per year, of which it consumes about 5%. The sixty four million dollars question would be What do they do with the surplus? They don't export any, at least not that I'm aware of. And year on year , they must be having a massive amount of this whale meat, blubber and all .

-2 ( +11 / -13 )

the catch of Bryde's whales reached the initial quota of 150 in late August, and the Fisheries Agency added 37 whales to the quota.

I wonder why the initial quota wasn't 187 instead of 150.

 So, please tell me why they had a quota of 1,000 whales for their BS research in the southern ocean? 

Whales in the Southern Ocean don't have anything to do with whales in the western-north Pacific. They are completely different populations, and a catch quota should certainly be set based on local characteristics, not the characteristics of the hyper-abundant Southern Ocean whales. Thankfully the Japanese Fishieries Agency didn't go setting 1,000 as the quota, based on such thinking.

It's said that Japan catches about 3000 tons of whales per year, 

That really depends on how many whales they catch, and this year they resumed commercial whaling while stopping Southern Ocean research catches.

Besides the whales they catch themselves, the Icelanders ship some catch to Japan, too.

of which it consumes about 5%. 

That's about 150 tons consumed then. Hmm, wonder why the Icelanders alone have shipped more of that to Japan then. Something smells like blubber about that.

What do they do with the surplus? 

Where is this mysterious surplus. Does it actually exist, or is it just nonsense propaganda?

-8 ( +7 / -15 )

There is so much wrong with this picture I don't even know where to start.

Such a magnificent animal killed for no good reason at all, shame on you Japane government for allowing this to happen.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

To all those against eating whales: Do you eat other animals?

0 ( +16 / -16 )

So I guess we will be seeing more whale meat in the local supermarket shortly?

Nope. It's bound for the tens of tons which has been stored under deep freeze for years because nobody eats whale anymore.

-4 ( +8 / -12 )

We used to have a professional baseball team in Japan called "Taiyo Whales" (1952-1977).  Today the team is DeNA Yokohama. The ball team was owned by Taiyo Gyogyo. It was a big and rich company at that time. Their main business was catching whales in the antarctic sea. The president of  the company and owner of the ball team boasted getting a star player is an easy thing. The player is only worth one whale they catch in the antarctic sea. As the anti-whaling movement became strong in the world, the company business became difficult and today the company is known as "MARUHA.

1 ( +11 / -10 )

Nope. It's bound for the tens of tons which has been stored under deep freeze for years because nobody eats whale anymore.

Tens of tons? What is that, like four whales?

I ask again, where is this "surplus" of whale? In reality, is it not the case that this is a very rare delicacy type of food?

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Whale hunting in general is a double-edged sword. As a leading industrial nation, I would like to see Japan to stop the whale hunting. It draws a bad light and apparently has not much of a use since whale meat is not really popular.

Then on the other hand there is always the alibi of tradition. Like Spain has their corrida/bullfights, certain countries use halal/shehitah slaughtering without any anesthesia, other island nations like Iceland or expecially the Faroe Islands also do whale hunting in an unbelievable cruel manner, recently having seen pictures of red colored bays, ripped open bodies with babys coming out and those slaughtered, too.

So it's not only Japan doing this but it's a weak point Japan can easily be blamed upon and as mentioned above as an industrial leader it will be under much strikter observation and blame than the other countries. In my opinion it is not the big ships seen here in this article that draw big attention, it's the beach slaughtering (of dolphins) which became famous by the blaming activists movie The Cove.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

I think the world is moving into a new phase.

Forests are being razed to the ground so cattle etc can be farmed.

Personally, I'd rather eat free whales from the oceans that are hunted in a sustainable fashion, than eat beef that has been farmed on lands that had forests cleared from them.

So ocean resources can, and from an environmental perspective, absolutely should be harvested on a sustainable basis, to the extent possible. If Japan has people that are happy to eat the whales, then that's a plus for the earth as a whole. If Japan is not eating all the whales that could be eaten, it would actually be ideal if there were others willing to feed themselves this way (or by eating insects etc), than by razing forests to the ground to farm meat.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

As whaling has a long tradition in Japan, surely it is only fair that the whales are also caught by traditional methods, namely, people in a row/sail boat without an engine using hand held harpoons to catch them. That would even things up a bit.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

The planet's dying, the Amazon is burning and the polar ice caps are melting.

Now the Japanese government shows how much it cares by doing its part. Sad.

Jacques Cousteau once said a long time ago that if the whales ever go extinct, then the oceans would die too. The whales are extremely important for the oceans' ecosystem.

2 ( +10 / -8 )

don't they also use it for animal feed?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Japans culture, Japans tradition, Japans right to hunt whatever they choose, that is perfectly legal.

No-one has the right to criticize anything that another nations people choose to eat.

-19 ( +4 / -23 )

serendipitous1Today  05:34 pm JST

As whaling has a long tradition in Japan, surely it is only fair that the whales are also caught by traditional methods, namely, people in a row/sail boat without an engine using hand held harpoons to catch them. That would even things up a bit.

It is the whaling that is a long tradition. Even the Inuit who are are exempt from the IWC commercial whaling moratorium for "subsistence whaling" use motorboats with engines and high powered rifles. Then they carry the whale meat to to the village supermarket for sale. So even they aren't using seal skin kayaks and bone tipped harpoons.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Don't get me wrong. I am not supporting whaling in Japan. I just wanted to give dear readers information of old days. There was a shortage of protein food in poor Japan in the past. There still are many poor countries in the world but they do not try to catch whales and eat. Why? Maybe they are too big to catch or they do not fit to their taste. For many years Japanese hated to eat four footed animals and they thought whales in the sea were fish. It was unfortunate for whales they did not have feet.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

If Japan is 'Truly' doing scientific research on whales, then shouldn't they be continuing the trend to hunt whales outside of territorial waters for research purposes when they resumed commercial whaling? Otherwise, they would then ''really'' be in violation since the hunts were for commercial purposes anyway.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Future generations will look back in horror at how animals, reptiles, birds and sea life, both domesticated and wild, were treated by humans, especially since they will inherit a world sadly diminished in biodiversity. They will wonder why we treated such wondrous forms of life that share the planet with us, fellow travelers spinning through space on this small speck of dirt we call home, with callous disregard and contempt.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@ Gambare Japan

Japans culture, Japans tradition, Japans right to hunt whatever they choose, that is perfectly legal.

No-one has the right to criticize anything that another nations people choose to eat.

Quite a legitimate observation. Personally, it's the rapaciousness with which Japan goes at it that's unsettling (?). Who are they commercially competing with? why so much when there is so little domestic uptake? And why faced with rules does it divorce itself from the world's common objectives ? Is Japan pre stocking rations in case of a war ?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

it's the rapaciousness with which Japan goes at it

What is rapacious about a modest catch within the bounds of sustainability?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Japans right to hunt whatever they choose

Would you include endangered species in this? Would you enforce that 'right' until the point of extinction?

No-one has the right to criticize anything that another nations people choose to eat.

Says who? Is this some kind of law? I'll criticize whatever I want thank you. It's up to you how you take that criticism.

That said, it is pleasing that Japan is slaughtering much less than during their 'research' period. Maybe that 'research' taught them that nobody is eating whale anymore.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

So, please tell me why they had a quota of 1,000 whales for their BS research in the southern ocean?

Because the well understood science of statistical sampling allows you to calculate how many samples you need to achieve a mathematically significant result. It was all spelled out in their research plan with the math clearly explained.

It's said that Japan catches about 3000 tons of whales per year, of which it consumes about 5%.

Where is it said and by whom?

Forests are being razed to the ground so cattle etc can be farmed.

The amount of forest world wide is increasing and has been for decades.

As whaling has a long tradition in Japan, surely it is only fair that the whales are also caught by traditional methods, namely, people in a row/sail boat without an engine using hand held harpoons to catch them. That would even things up a bit.

Humans are traditionally hunter/gathers, surely it is only fair that you subsist on food you yourself gather in the wilds.

if the whales ever go extinct, then the oceans would die too. The whales are extremely important for the oceans' ecosystem.

Then I guess it is a good thing that most whale populations are stable or increasing.

If Japan is 'Truly' doing scientific research on whales, then shouldn't they be continuing the trend to hunt whales outside of territorial waters for research purposes when they resumed commercial whaling? Otherwise, they would then ''really'' be in violation since the hunts were for commercial purposes anyway.

The main aim of the research was to provide the data to support resuming commercial whaling. Now that commercial whaling has resumed there is no longer a need for that research.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

Whale meat decreases brain IQ because all this heavy metals accumulation so why not

develop artificial whale meat with taste and look like the real thing..

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Minke whales: Species of "least concern" vis-a-vis endangered species.

Coastal Hokkaido: Japanese waters.

Everyone else can go pound sand.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@Ganbare Japan!

Japans culture, Japans tradition, Japans right 

The thing is, that historically speaking it's not actually not "Japan's culture, Japan's tradition". It was never a national culture. It's only been re-made as a national culture post WWII when the Americans revived Norwegian style whaling in order to palm the waste product from their whale oil demands onto the Japanese people.

The US got the whale oil, the Japanese were fed the waste. The meat.

Up until the 70s, and beyond, the US was using the oil in automatic transmissions, extreme military and space applications.

The "protein myth" is precisely that, another US import. Japan can adequately supply sufficient protein from plant based sources, not even having to augment it by the small amounts local fish, eggs, game etc that is national food tradition.

Since the 1970s, the whaling division of the fisheries ministry has been propaganizing the issue in a nationalistic manner, and indoctrinating children by force feeding via schools' programs, in order to protect their income and continued existence.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" and all that.

That right wing foreigners engage in the debate based solely on their hate of so called liberals or environmentalist in their own nations, as in the "arrest Paul" types who were enraged by the Sea Shephard types they saw on their TV, is beyond reasonableness.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

I'd like an updates on the economics off it all. The industry is not economical and is living off government welfare.

Better that money was spent in re-training workers in sustainable, profitable industries.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Better that money was spent in re-training workers in sustainable, profitable industries.

Yes because Japan is renowned for its ability to retrain and allow workers to seamlessly move from one industry to another!

A lot of these whalers are 3rd or 4th generation and have grown up around the industry all their lives, with the vast majority having done the basics at school and left to work on the fleets. The idea that they can simply be "retrained" and moved into another industry is a fanciful pipedream!

Companies engaged in the sustainability industry tend to hire skilled and pre trained workers with university level qualifications, the cost involved in taking someone with no qualifications and getting them to the level needed in time would be too large for any company to bear, let alone a Japanese one!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Their country, their culture, their right.

No one has a right to judge another country on how they hunt or what meat they eat.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

@joyridingonthetitanic

The idea that they can simply be "retrained" and moved into another industry is a fanciful pipedream!

Seriously?

Tell us precisely what they do that is so unique and makes them so untrainable?

They are sailors. They are marine engineers. They are navigators. They are cooks and cleaners. They are dockside workers, from stevedores to welders etc. They are butchers. They are refridgerator engineers. They are quartermasters.

In short, they all already have all the other skills to be re-deployed.

Except, perhaps, the guy with his finger on the trigger?

However, I am sure the SDF can give him a job as a gunner, and employ the people who handle the munitions. In fact, they can get even bigger guns to play with.

Whale and conservation would be the obvious re-deployments, where they can put their skills to good use. Early retirement in other cases.

I meant "sustainable" in economic terms, which the whaling industry is not. It can only stay afloat due to government subsidies.

However, for an example, how to you think the university trained engineers get out to their windfarms in sea or tidal generators? That's right, they need about 90% of the above to do so.

It's also very well paid work. Better than fishing.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

No one has a right to judge another country on how they hunt or what meat they eat.

Yes they do every country has the right to criticize Japan for their extremely cruel and unnecessary whale hunting practices as does Japan has the right to criticize similar practices committed by other countries.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@pacificwest

You are forgetting one thing in this utopian vision of yours, whether those involved in the industry want to move into these new industries you are talking about. Many of these men are deeply traditional and will not simply want to abandon their roots to take part in the very services that destroyed their way of life. Its all very well saying on a place like this about what is the "right thing to do" and taking the moral high ground from a position or complete detachment form those working on those ships, but unless those individuals and crews are willing to move, your plan is a non starter! Sorry!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@ fxgai

The BBC this morning reported Japan whaling at 3000 tons per year. Still no answers as to what they do with the huge surplus of whale meat. Why are they hoarding it ? Even primitive tribes do no such thing !!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Japan has NEVER had a commercial whaling industry on the historic scale of Western countries; the sifting whales out of the ocean to melt 'em down by the hundreds of thousands to light streetlamps and whatnot.

Those operations are responsible for the depleted stocks of dozens of whale species we see today in the world's oceans.

So essentially we have a bunch of 'woke' white people from Western countries--whose ancestral predecessors are responsible the unsustainable whale harvest--now trying to scold and browbeat people of color for a sustainable food hunt.

But tell us all more about how 'whitesplaining' is bad.

Pick one.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Many of these men are deeply traditional and will not simply want to abandon their roots to take part in the very services that destroyed their way of life.

True, and fishing communities are often as tight-knit and traditional as they come. But does whaling really have a long-term future in Japan? Demand has fallen off a cliff, they have to give their catch to school kids, and they can't survive without enormous subsidies (a staggering $46 million this year). At some point someone in high office is going to decide that there are better ways to spend this money. Then what?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@ClippetyClop

Demand has fallen off a cliff, they have to give their catch to school kids, and they can't survive without enormous subsidies (a staggering $46 million this year)

Yes, I was going to answer CaptDingleheimer with just that.

The fact is, the industry is economically sustainable, nor environmentally sustainable.

Indeed, there's a lot of chat in Japan that what is really going on with this retreat to national waters, is a running down of the industry as the entire fleet would need to be remade to meet polar safety and environment standards and no government would afford that.

What disgusts me the most about the JWA/Fisheries people is the insultingly poor rationales they creating to propagandize. This "whaling as a sustainable food" being a perfect example. It's a perversion of language and a corruption of logic that is typical of their indoctrinational strategies.

Ask them to prove the mathematics, eg equate the calorific and nutritional rewards with the quantity of fuel oil consumed and pollution created - and that's without including the construction and maintenance of the vessels where the most pollution happens - and they disappear in poof of whale fart.

At the end of the day, if it is about the calorific and nutritional rewards (which it is not), far greater reward for far less energy consumption and pollution creation can be had elsewhere.

There is only one true justification for the whaling industry and it is not spoken about.

That is to say, it is still about the whale oil and its value to the military.

It is really about keeping an industry alive in case it needs to be produced to be used in a future war.

But with synthetics and stockpiles, even that is a weak one.

Re-frame the whaling industry is part of the military-industrial complex, as it is, and you'd probably raise support to shut it down

Which is why they are so desparate to make it about "food" and "culture" and "patriotism" and all the other bogus memes they pump out.

Ganbare Japan!

And no one is able to challenge it.

Of course they can. BTW, are you Japanese or just projecting your own chauvinism onto Japan?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

cull the whales there are so much of them. They eat tons of fish and swallow them like peanuts. I eat fish but my fish is being eaten by the sea pest whales. I hate whales.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

 But does whaling really have a long-term future in Japan?

No, in the long term it does not, but my point is that you would be better off letting the industry die a death in manner that respects its traditions instead of forcing change upon a group of highly proud and conservative people who will such actions as a threat to their way of life!

In situations such as this, it is sometimes better to deal with it in a slow respectful way instead of hammer blow of change with out thinking through the repercussions. Its hard to swallow but, the practice of Whaling, is in decline, the evidence is there and demand is at practically zero for the meat. But, in the long term it is probably better for it to die gradually and gracefully than stop it at once and risk unregulated whaling taking its place as a form of protest. If you want to spend money on anything, target the next generation and provide funding for education programmes there, but in a balanced way that says 'yes this was a part of our history and it did happen, but also reflects the changed attitudes towards it and the modern thinking behind why it has changed. This way a balance is maintained and will not infuriate one side or the other.

But lets be honest, in this day an age, a balanced view of the world is about as rare as a forum post going "hey you know what, I was wrong you are right!"

3 ( +4 / -1 )

One of their memes, recycled here, depends on false, racial or nationalistic groupings.

It is not "Westerners versus Japanese", it is "Whaling industries versus the rest of the ecosphere."

It was the whaling industries who slaughtered all the whales, not 99.999% of Westerners, just as99.999% of Japanese never had anything to do with it either. The Japanese whaling industry being part of that grouping.

Whalers are whalers wherever they are.

@Ganbare Japan!

The fairest rational challenge to the industry is that

a) oceans are not divided like landmasses are,

b) we really do not know enough about how they work and whales place within (it is often said we know more about outer space than deep oceans), and

c) they are clearly in multiple state of crises and require remedial work.

What we do know about the role of whales is that they act as large ruminant mammals on landmasses did (eg whale and bovine species), transporting food for other species, and fertilizing as they go. Many of those species are small species that are then food for what humans take. The whale, in brief, are recycling food matter from great depth and transporting it great lengths small species cannot.

All the so called science produced by the JWA and their cronies is about justifying the recommencement of slaughter now.

A more reasonable and rational starting would be to say that populations should be allowed to increase right back to pre-whaling levels, eg C16th before there is any thought at all of doing so.

Let's put the oceans back into the state they were before we started destroying them.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

what a disturbing picture that is. it just doesn,t feel right at all. that,s all i,m gonna say.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@joyriding

Maybe you have the solution there. Let the industry wind down whilst at the same time spending some of that $500 million in the next decade on preparing for something else.

They should send some of these whalers to the shipyards of Scotland or car factories of Detroit .The people there might have some valuable advice about how you need to start to move on before it all ends.

Let's put the oceans back into the state they were before we started destroying them.

Amen to that. If only we could, I fear we are way past that point though

1 ( +2 / -1 )

thunderbird

please define intelligence

justifying killing animals because they are dumb and saving whales because they are intelligent? crap

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Personally, I think we should all live on sunlight and air. Nevertheless, minke whales are neither endangered nor threatened. They are protected.

Their status is irrelevant. They shouldn't be hunted even if there were millions of them.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Nevertheless, minke whales are neither endangered nor threatened.

I wasn't talking about just minke whales. I was referring to @Ganbare's post that stated Japan has the right to hunt & eat whatever it wants with impunity. I wanted to know if this 'right' applied to endeangered species such as Sei whales, Fin whales, ocelots or Mauritian kestrels

They are protected.

Protected from what?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I do not understand the logic of spending money (subsidies) to keep whales in deep freezers instead of keeping them fresh in the sea.

If some people like it just pay for it and no need for subsidised over catching.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Still no answers as to what they do with the huge surplus of whale meat.

What surplus?

a staggering $46 million this year

Which is a staggering 0.005% of the Japanese government's annual budget. Not saying the money couldn't be used elsewhere but it is so small that it would get lost by simply rounding off to the nearest 0.01%. If someone makes $40,000 a year, it is like $2. Half a Starbucks coffee per year.

nor environmentally sustainable.

The industry has continued with no negative effects on whale populations for over 30 years at HIGHER levels of hunting. Sure looks like it is environmentally sustainable.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Farmboy

neither will the killing methods are cruel idea.

Honest question, why not? Do you think people lack empathy?

The lack of compassion is strange for a country with avowedly "Buddhist" foundations.

What the Whaling lobby has done assiduously is indoctrinate successive generations at childhood, through the school dinner program, usually with lots of deep fried or curry products that children love.

That mental foundation and associate - the first cut being the deepest etc - is what is hard to overcome.

The logic they use is cult-like in its dishonesty and illogical nature while at the same time they accuse anti-whaling lobbies of the same, eg start with the lie it is a "Japanese" tradition.

It never was. It was only ever a highly localized tradition.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Living being slaughter is barbaric and becomes a stronger stain on the people's conscience with every passing day. As simple as that.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I saw somewhere on TV that some schools are using whale meat for their school lunches such as whale meat curried rice etc. In this way, they are trying to get children used to eating whale meat. This is terrible and wicked. Unfortunately nobody raises voices against the attempt.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Can't speak for other countries, but this move is massively hurting Japan's image in Australia. Saw many a protest against whale and dolphin hunting get coverage on the news.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Japan is a real shame, and they are called theirselves civilized, here in Latin America, whales are an attraction ,to see them swimming in the sea, is another reason of love for the Mother Nature, Japan has no environmental conscience , what a shame of you Japanese .

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Unfortunately nobody raises voices against the attempt.

I have seen voices raised against it for well over a decade.

but this move is massively hurting Japan's image in Australia

Yet trade between the two countries continues to grow unabated. Political ties continue to be strengthened. And Australian tourist visits to Japan are increasing.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Ganbare Japan!

No-one has the right to criticize anything that another nations people choose to eat.

Ah, the cultural relativism absolutist's defense. Maybe your mind will change (into succulent morsels) when you discover that your neighbor is a cannibal.

If we were bound by your imagined non-rights, we couldn't criticize anything. Where's the fun in that?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Top 4 intelligent Non Human but they're actually more humane than humans.

Chimpanzee

Dolphin

Pigs

Dogs

Whale doesn't come even in Top 20.

Most of the people who are against Anti Whale Japan eat No. 3 every week. Why? The answer is the same as one who hunts and eat whale.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Greed! Boycott Japanese products. The oceans are threatened at every level and whales are essential to a balanced ecosystem. There are better, more sustainable ways to build a strong food system for all. Raise the cry and boycott Japanese products. Divestment is next.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

My J-wife informed me last night after seeing this on the news TV she hasn't eaten whale since they were forced to for school lunch more than 60 years ago and hates the taste of it.

And my J-friend informed me they eat whale once or twice a month and enjoy the taste of it. Different people like different things. The fact that one doesn't like something is meaningless.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

can someone please remind me WHY exactly do we need to eat whale(!)(?)(!) ? -_-

(trick question. answer - we actually don,t need it......... at all)

2 ( +3 / -1 )

can someone please remind me WHY exactly do we need to eat whale(!)(?)(!) ? -_-

(trick question. answer - we actually don,t need it......... at all)

Just like we don't need thousands of other foods. Lack of need for a specific one is hardly a reason to get rid of it.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Whaling? What are you Japanese in the 18th century, whales have enough to worry about plastics pollution, and your radioactive water. Leave them alone, civilized countries on the planet gave this up a hundred years ago.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

civilized countries on the planet gave this up a hundred years ago.

So the USA, Britain, Australia, Canada, etc. are not civilized?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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