Japan considers expanding its air zone

Per WSJ article: Several countries have declared them unilaterally, including the U.S. and Japan. Many of those countries require foreign military aircraft to identify themselves and their flight plans on entering their ADIZ. They will often intercept and escort foreign military aircraft in their ADIZ but will usually not repel them or force them to land unless they consider them a threat.

Go ahead and take the American Pacific air zone as well. After all Japan almost defeated the Americans at Pearl Harbour anyway.

"Let me resolve your confusion"

Thanks for your efforts, but as long as you reside outside of Japan, you dont count.

smithinjapan,

Now, if Japan flies a plane or fighter into the air-space, I'll take it back.

Please read

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20131128-00000026-asahi-pol

JDA has already sent aircraft to fly in the zone. Oh, and China didn't react by scrambling any fighters either.

So take it all back.

A change in ownership of real estate from private to public hands has no bearing on a state's territorial sovereignty. China knows this. It used Ishihara's move to buy the islands, and the Japanese government's eventual purchase of them, as a convenient pretext to feign outrage, take further steps to bolster their claim to administrative control of the islands, and ratchet up tensions as a consequence. Anyone who can't see that China's long term strategy is to chip away at Japan's control and absorb the islands is blind. Time to draw the line.

People are blaming Ishihara for this, but it should be remembered that he made the announcement of his intention to 'purchase' the islands at the Heritage Foundation in the US. It is another example of Neocon influence.

If we can view Japanese designed air defence zone, it is exactly identical with PRC air map. Air zone is not like ground which can be put with barriers and walls. Besides that most passengers from Planes of commercial air routes were PRC citizens.

When Japan declared the exactly the same size of Air defense zone almost touching the PRC shore, no one has complained about it. When Japan declared ADIZ over Takeshima or Dodko, by expanding Japan's ADIZ over and beyond Takeshima or Dodko, right up near to Ullungdo,there was no noise. Bullying and intimidating to smaller neighbor with recklessness.

Pro Japan media and pro Japan posters have hypocrisy and double standard about Do as what Japan told you! Not as what Japan did it before.

chucky3176

One, that's not contained anywhere in this story so if you're going to suddenly throw it into the discussion you may want to provide a reference and say that you've read it elsewhere. Still... Two, it's also not reported anywhere else that I can find other than the Korea Times. That should tell you something. To the contrary: "The air defense identification zones are often set around territorial land and waters. However, Japan has not included the northern territories and the Takeshima islands in Shimane Prefecture in its ADIZ." http://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0000826330

USNinJapan2, this quote is from Korea Times today:

Prompted by China’s latest announcement of an Air Defense Identification Zone (CADIZ) that overlaps those of Korea and Japan, Tokyo is reportedly considering including Seoul’s easternmost islets of Dokdo in its airspace.

What's the point of these air zones if no one respect them? China doesn't care for Japan's air zones and US and Japan don't care for China's air zones. So what's the point with all this?

Its not like only certain nation can have these ADIZ. US, Japan both have ADIZ before China got in the game. The only thing China did was to include the air zone over disputed islands and overlapped with Japan's air zone. Its definitely a tit for tat move because Japan said it will shoot down China's aircrafts crossing into the area.

So will Japan shoots down China aircrafts in an air zone that China now is claiming as their own? That will determine who wins. If China continuously fly in the overlapped area and Japan won't do anything about it. Then its just as always, empty talks with no action. This is clearly a test by China against Japan on what Japan had declared to do just a week ago.

Like I said on another post, China is definitely copying what Japan had been doing. ITs trying to legitimize their claims by establishing the rule of law. Technically speaking, if one nation signs up and register with China on air routes, China wins. Looks like South Korea, Taiwan and Australia are already on board. It really doesn't matter if Japan and US don't give a damn. Its probably expected by the Chinese anyways. So long as there are other nations who recognize this ADIZ from China, China wins. Its a brilliant move by China.

Yes some important points.

China is aggressor here and making claims on territory not its own not only at the Senkakus but also with Korea, Vietnam, the Phlippines and other places.

Japan and China are very different nations and have very different ways of acting both at home and internationally.

Japan today is NOT the Japan of many years ago.

the Air control Zones are NOT territory but they involve claims of control by the nation that creates them. For China to extend its to this vast area is just absurd and a flagrant flaunting of the normal respect for international space and other nations rights.

The islands in question here ARE Japanese and will be Japanese. They are NOT Chinese and China is likely to look more and more foolish and inept if it continues on the path it is taking here.

Japan wants to take on China, and Korea at the same time. Korean papers this morning report Japan wants to challenge Korea's ADIZ over Takeshima, by expanding Japan's ADIZ over and beyond Takeshima, right up near to Ullungdo. If that happens, Korea's ADIZ which is much smaller than China's and Japan's, shrinks even further due to China's and Japan's tit for tat moves. The difference with Japan is that I think Japan is now trying to use China as an excuse to challenge Korea's claim on Dokdo - militarily and economically. Japanese papers are starting to print news stories about making Korea collapse by putting economic sanctions and other very provocative news articles on Korea, probably in preparations for a conflict with Korea. I'm not saying there will be a war over Dokdo, but if Japan does exert ADIZ, and there's an accidental air clash, it could lead to war between two US allies. Is that what the US want? If the US allows Japan's ADIZ to expand over to Korea's, that is going to be a very serious mistake.

I wonder if there is anyway we can get Google Maps to send their Panorama Camera Team to Uotsuri Jima (the largest if the Senkakku Chain) and take some panorama shots of this island and update The World on Google Maps?

I really want to what is so important on this island that China needs to bring Asia to the boiling point over before the start of the Holidays?

I mean to the boiling point that both Japan and China need to start expanding their ADIZ's by implementing "Danger Zones" (your welcome Kenny Loggins), deploying Warships, Launching Aircraft, Engaging Missile Lock Radar's, Megaphone-Saber Rattling, Ambassador Summoning, Name Calling, Making Frowny Faces on TV,, Sticking their toungs out at each other, Administering Head Noogies and Wet Willies, and worst of all - Shoulder Tapping Run Away!!!

Tell me, what is important about all this right now? Especially during the start of the Holidays? Most of the Sensible World (including Japan) is getting ready to celebrate the Holidays with Christmas Lights, Party's, and Holiday Stand Down for the USNFJ Fleet until Ebenezer China has to spoil everyone's Holiday Fun. I guess they don't have any Christmas Holidays in China eh?

BRAH HUMBUG!

Mike45Nov. 27, 2013 - 10:22PM JST Im confused on this though, because Ive heard nothing but negative things about China from Japanese, sometimes quite vile and racist. Chinese do the same? Dont know, never lived there.

Let me resolve your confusion. Chinese riots have destroyed Japanese stores, Japanese cars, damaged the Japanese Embassy in China. The same has not occurred in Japan against China or Chinese.

https://www.google.com/search?q=china+anti-japanese+protests&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=HA-WUoXcBdOAqgGDvoCwDQ&ved=0CEcQsAQ&biw=881&bih=434

In an effort to fight the Chinese, the Americans are growing another time bomb, just like how they supported teh Talibans and Al Qaeda in an effort to fight the Russians during the Cold War. Japan is changing, they will change, and they will come back to bite America's bum. History always repeats itself.

China japan is not going to be an non issue once right wingers here got their wishes. Their real intend is to use China as a pretext to not being a btch of US anymore and have their own war machine.

Stupid Obm does not see this right now. But download the road, it's going to be evident.

Yes, I did. It was a nice move and show of support by the US, and yes Japan would never have done that itself. None of that has changed. This whole 'considering' changing the air-space is what is tit-for-tat, but you guys seem entirely focused on blaming this entire thing on China instead of seeing it as two children (and a third, slightly bigger standing in front of one) going at it. Now, if Japan flies a plane or fighter into the air-space, I'll take it back.

Smith. You don't make sense at all. Are you seriously stating that if Japan had encroached on the newly defined China's ADIZ, you would consider that as being "nice move" by Japan while on other threads, you rant on how Japan has been just as guilty of "provoking" this conflict?

An ADIZ can be designated anywhere as long as it's not over another country's actual territorial claim.

That's exactly what i meant. Japan is considering the expansion of ADIZ, covering Dokdo/Takeshima, which is currently Korean ADIZ.

Do you understand what this is? Japan is going wild, because the US is letting them, for their own interests in Asia, to counter China.

What? What you have now isn't big enough territory for you?

For the last time. An ADIZ is NOT territorial air space. An ADIZ can be designated anywhere as long as it's not over another country's actual territorial claim. Japan can extend their ADIZ to half of the Western Pacific Ocean if they want just as long as it doesn't include anyone else's national air space. Japan is extending it's south eastern ADIZ to cover one of its own islands, the Ogasawara chain. This is really a non-story.

smithjapan:

" This whole 'considering' changing the air-space is what is tit-for-tat, but you guys seem entirely focused on blaming this entire thing on China instead of seeing it as two children (and a third, slightly bigger standing in front of one) going at it. "

No. There is no equivalence here. China has been behaving like a childish bully, and Japan has consistently shown restraint and behaved like the adult.

What? What you have now isn't big enough territory for you?

"Japan expanding its territory is a stupid idea. It would be seen as tit-for-tat and would put it on a par with China's ridiculous actions."

Japan only expanded its zone only after big bro flew up through it to challenge China. The China zone was never meant to challenge the U.S., it was meant to challenge Japan. They failed to respond, but big bro did.

My major concern is that this type of brinkmanship is NOT going to end well, especially the gigantic amount of air space China is claiming in the East China Sea. One misunderstanding and we could have a repeat of what happened in 1983 (and we all know what that was) with tragic results.

I need to correct my facts. It was June 2010 that Japan extended its ADIZ by 22 km.

USN, I think you fail to see that it takes two to tango. What's the point of an ADIZ if you're not prepared to defend your territory if an aircraft doesn't identify its self.

But we are talking about china here, they are not reasonable.

SushiSake3Nov. 27, 2013 - 03:45PM JST

Japan expanding its territory is a stupid idea. It would be seen as tit-for-tat and would put it on a par with China's ridiculous actions.

Absolutely. This is a bad strategy. I would like to see if international allied feel the same as well as we do. It is just STUPID.

@YongYang,

You do make a good post; We have a bully power...and a former bully power. I personally think Japan complicated the issue, but it can be argued that eventually it would of come to this anyway. Im confused on this though, because Ive heard nothing but negative things about China from Japanese, sometimes quite vile and racist. Chinese do the same? Dont know, never lived there. Before all of this, were we on the path to mutual understanding, maybe even peace? Seemed that way.

FizzBit

Just in case some might not know this, Japan extended its ADIZ this last May by 14 km. So, it's not JUST china in this pissing contest.

And? Unlike China, Japan DIDN'T announce, "If an aircraft doesn’t supply its flight plan, Japan’s armed forces will adopt emergency defensive measures in response...Japan's Ministry of National Defense has full administrative rights over the zone.” Did they? Of course not.

Sigh. Another on who fails to see the obvious difference between normal ADIZs and what China just announced.

We... Well... We are all dead.

This may bring about the end... China, go ahead and give your reigns to the USA...

You may obliterate Japan and all the folks living in it... But watch what happens ;)

Better start changing them textbooks :)

"China becomes the next US state" ;)

YongYang nice post.

If you have a bully you warn them, you react, or are made to suffer. China is pushing along so many lines it is quite something to observe in its entirety and at the moment it is Japan who has the military and economic might to push back. Japan must not yield but neither must Japan provoke, because for one Japan needs to set a marker for other South East Asian nations to follow and secondly Japan needs to be acutely aware of how the region observes the actions of a once Imperialist Power that brought so much misery. The forces of peace in China must prevail and as the article outlines the hardliners must not be allowed to gain the controls. It will bring calamity, war, waste in a place that needs a brighter future.

smithinjapanNov. 27, 2013 - 04:24PM JST Classic! Japan follows China yet again. So when Japan does this will there be the same international uproar? So >much for the high road and the high horse. Anyone who expressed outrage at China expanding their territory claims >MUST be outraged by this or they are complete hypocrites. Get ready for the back-pedalling.

"Japan is considering expanding its air defense identification zone in the Pacific Ocean"

It's on the Pacific side. China is nowhere near it.

Just in case some might not know this, Japan extended its ADIZ this last May by 14 km. So, it's not JUST china in this pissing contest.

smithinjapan,

I guess you missed the fact that this thread is about Japan expanding it's air-space.

This statement is entirely incorrect. By redefining it's ADIZ Japan is NOT expanding it's air space, which by anyone's definition (possibly other than yours), is the sky above a country's territory which it controls and administers. Either you simply don't know what an ADIZ entails or you're trying to fudge the definition in order to equate what Japan is considering doing to what China just did these past week. The subject Japanese ADIZ consists of international air space, and does NOT belong to Japan nor does Japan expect to control it in any way. This is in sharp contrast to China's newly revised ADIZ for which they do clearly stipulate that they expect to exert positive control over all flights in, out, and most importantly, through it, thereby effectively treating it not as an ADIZ but an extended area of its national airspace. Japan's timing is only incidental and spurred by China's recent actions. In essence the Chinese case is a classic example of their policy of territorial creep through the cabbage strategy. The circumstances surrounding the two ADIZs are completely different. I'm surprised you can't see/accept that.

Let's just all expand our hot air zones.

Better to join all the global forces to avoid any possibility of a global war coming from Asia. If a cancer is growing, we should prevent it to grow more stopping it's advance to affect the entire body. We can send antibodies, ensure order, cut their energy source or just a laser treatment to remove the problem.

nigelboy: "But didn't you just moments ago describe the U.S. B-52 operation as "Nice move" while at the same time ridiculing Japan for "not having the gall"?"

Yes, I did. It was a nice move and show of support by the US, and yes Japan would never have done that itself. None of that has changed. This whole 'considering' changing the air-space is what is tit-for-tat, but you guys seem entirely focused on blaming this entire thing on China instead of seeing it as two children (and a third, slightly bigger standing in front of one) going at it. Now, if Japan flies a plane or fighter into the air-space, I'll take it back.

delta: "You missed the point. ADIZ is not a someone's Air Space. Don't manipulate other people."

Actually, YOU missed the point. What is this in response to? Ah, yes, China's recent belligerence. Hence, tit-for-tat.

PS: Japan lost this war in 1945. No one better than China to know that. China just started moving, because they know that now is the best moment.

No first mover advantage..... Just because the US lacks respect for any other country it does not mean these countries don't have authority, it just shows the US as arrogant.

smithinjapanNov. 27, 2013 - 04:47PM JST I guess you missed the fact that this thread is about Japan expanding it's air-space.

You missed the point. ADIZ is not a someone's Air Space. Don't manipulate other people.

Control is measured in numbers, no longer in words these days. It is far behind when China overcame Japanese ability to control those islands. And the United States cannot afford a certain war with China. It is quite simple. Mathematical fact that you can do on a napkin. Japan has no military or economic control in the area. Don't waste your time and just accept that.

nigelboy

But didn't you just moments ago describe the U.S. B-52 operation as "Nice move" while at the same time ridiculing Japan for "not having the gall"?

smithinjapan Nov. 27, 2013 - 07:42AM JST: Gutsy. China will probably just ignore it -- they don't really have a choice. Nice move. Japan obviously doesn't have the gall.

Yup.

Agreed that the tiger was always a threat, but Ishihara knew this, and decided to "draw his sword" So he shares no blame?

Tensions were not at all the same until Ishihara said and did what he did, bottom line, and you know that full well. Until then, yes, there was the occasional trespassing fishing boat, same as Japanese boats trespassed into Russian waters and were caught, no? But it was never like things are now.

To be precise, in 2010, prior to the fishing trawler incident, there was 14 inspections done by the Coast Guard of Chinese ships due to encroachment in the territorial waters near Senkaku. In 2009, there was a grand total of ZERO.

In other words, you make no reference to what lead up to the owner's willingness to sell and how the central government ignored his plea. This is how Ishihara got involved because the central government was not doing anything.

China's reaction for the most part is as a result of what they do not tell to their own citizens which is for one, two of the islands are already nationalized. Second, the owner wanted to sell the land before the least expired. Hence, it was a matter of time the islands were going to sold to either Tokyo or the central government.

And smith you keep jumping around one minute blaming abe then blaming ishihara, are you sure you even know who to blame?

The blame with out doubt lies squarely at chinas door for todays current situation, Abe offered to have a sit down with them and they refused and amped up the rhetoric and BS, how you can sit there and continue with your one eyed view is beyond believe.

The door was opened, china turned her back and walked away talking utter rubbish just like her supporters on this forum.

What's juvenile is the number of posters refusing to see this tit-for-tat measure as being exactly that, and deflecting by focusing on China instead.

But didn't you just moments ago describe the U.S. B-52 operation as "Nice move" while at the same time ridiculing Japan for "not having the gall"?

In this part of the world, people work themselves into hissy fits over nothing. Anybody that has lived in Japan knows this, and I suspect the same goes on in China. In Japan, griefs can go on for decades, like some childish game. This stupidity will go back and forth, lets hope without incident, then some "cold war" will start between Japan/China until a new election in Japan. Chinas premeir is there for the long term, so dont expect much to change.

This is a war for resources under the guise of nationalism. Money and resource exploitation run governments. Don't think its about anything else.

USNinJapan: "Trying to shift the focus off of China in this case by pointing the finger at Japan for doing what they perfectly have the right to do is ridiculous and juvenile."

What's juvenile is the number of posters refusing to see this tit-for-tat measure as being exactly that, and deflecting by focusing on China instead.

StormR: Tensions were not at all the same until Ishihara said and did what he did, bottom line, and you know that full well. Until then, yes, there was the occasional trespassing fishing boat, same as Japanese boats trespassed into Russian waters and were caught, no? But it was never like things are now.

"I doubt more than a handle full of people in china even know where these island are let alone where the sea is, and I am sure the billions of peasants couldn't careless."

Well, interesting you should comment on people not knowing much, all the "billions" of them. How many people do you think there are on the planet? And I bet you're wrong -- I'm pretty sure the government is feeding the people a bunch of propaganda over this and focussing their attention on precisely where the islands are. Japanese news is doing the same, albeit not with the same kind of force.

This silly crap has gone on long enough, but like two brothers, it will go on for the long foreseeable future.

Goes back before ishihara made his dumb move, example - Chinese fishing boats regularly ramming japan coast guard boats in the area, the tension has been there for decades and for decades china did and said nothing until resources were discovered there, that's when china started making noises about wanting them and ratcheting up the tension and the rhetoric.

I doubt more than a handle full of people in china even know where these island are let alone where the sea is, and I am sure the billions of peasants couldn't careless.

smithinjapan

So when Japan does this will there be the same international uproar? So much for the high road and the high horse. Anyone who expressed outrage at China expanding their territory claims MUST be outraged by this or they are complete hypocrites. Get ready for the back-pedalling.

Oh please. Do you have any idea where the Ogasawara island chain is? It's in the middle of nowhere in the Pacific Ocean far from any neighboring country or their territory, EEZ, ADIZ, etc. and no one would care. Japan has the right, as any nation does, to extend their ADIZ out as far as they want as long as it doesn't encroach on anyone else's ADIZ or national airspace. The reason China is being lambasted for their recently announced ADIZ is because it includes territories (contested or not) that belong to other nations, Japan and South Korea in this case. You just can't do that because those countries have the right to do whatever they please above their territories. Also, China's policies concerning their new ADIZ requires all aircraft to check in with and follow the directions of the Chinese authorities or face a military response. This means that China is effectively exerting their authority over all flights, be they military or commercial, within the ADIZ (which I remind you isn't China's national airspace but is unrestricted international airspace) including flights that are merely in transit through the ADIZ without ever flying towards China with the intent to enter Chinese national airspace. China simply cannot be allowed to exert control over aircraft that isn't inbound (i.e. threatening) conducting innocent passage through international airspace. They're free to track and prepare to respond to any and all flights in whatever ADIZ they unilaterally designate, but it's another thing entirely to threaten force against innocent flights that don't comply with their unilateral demands. Trying to shift the focus off of China in this case by pointing the finger at Japan for doing what they perfectly have the right to do is ridiculous and juvenile. You should know better Smith.

StormR: "and that's right smack bang where the blame lies smith, you think ishihara started all this you must be on drugs !"

Until Ishihara made his declaration things were more or less at a stand-still, and Japan and China had agreed to develop the gas fields in the area jointly. Then Ishihara made his statements (including that he did not care if we went to war), and all hell broke loose and we have what we have now. So, yes, that is where current tensions started, and yes, both sides are now being extremely childish.

smithinjapan

"They are behaving like spoilt children, honestly."

They all are, agreed. Problem is, even with Japan making this announcement, people like you still want to blame it all on China.

and that's right smack bang where the blame lies smith, you think ishihara started all this you must be on drugs !

This all goes way back well before ishihara stepped into the fray.

frontandcentre: "Why doesn't China go the whole way and claim the Japanese main islands as well? China seems to think that the whole of east Asia belongs to it, despite already having a huge amount of territory and unlimited access to the sea."

I guess you missed the fact that this thread is about Japan expanding it's air-space.

"They are behaving like spoilt children, honestly."

They all are, agreed. Problem is, even with Japan making this announcement, people like you still want to blame it all on China.

Why doesn't China go the whole way and claim the Japanese main islands as well? China seems to think that the whole of east Asia belongs to it, despite already having a huge amount of territory and unlimited access to the sea.

They are behaving like spoilt children, honestly.

Classic! Japan follows China yet again. So when Japan does this will there be the same international uproar? So much for the high road and the high horse. Anyone who expressed outrage at China expanding their territory claims MUST be outraged by this or they are complete hypocrites. Get ready for the back-pedalling.

Laguna San that would seem to be a reasonable thought about all of this but sadly China has not been reasonable from the start about this issue, and therefore having a rational approach and allowing this travesty to continue without challenge only empowers it..it is like letting a termite hive continue to work on the interior of a house, you won't see the damage until the entire house collapses.

If we let China do as it pleases, then over time they would just do more and more outrageous things, and i must say this is simply in the realm of amazingly fantastic as it is....

Japan is the right party to set a line for it involves them directly and their sorverignty..if you do not defend sovereignty you lose it history shows.

Way to go, complete idiots! The best way to defeat the PRC's self-declared ADIZ is to ignore it: If all relevant countries act as if it didn't exist, Beijing would either have to put up or shut up. Expanding one's own ADIZ might as well serve as a giant neon sign saying, "Sure, you have an ADIZ, but ours is bigger" - exactly the wrong message you want to send.

Sheesh, can we get some people with even a smidgen of strategic capacity here?

Trade wars, currency wars, now air zone wars.

Japan expanding its territory is a stupid idea. It would be seen as tit-for-tat and would put it on a par with China's ridiculous actions.

The attempt by China to claim control does not make it de facto control indeed the recent flight of the US planes shows that they do NOT have defacto anything. The reality of the situation is that China is making wild claims and trying then to support them with further wild actions. None of this is substantial or supported by international consent, or even any sort of precedent other than the aggression of invaders. Let us hope that reasoned heads will prevail. Japan is in its rights to consider expanding its own zones of control, which are actually based on its own territory and not some claim a long distance from any real territory of its own as in this case ..rather bizarre trully, of China trying to re draw the map by fiat.