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Japan denies its jets were provocative in Chinese encounter

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By MARI YAMAGUCHI and DIDI TANG

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He said, she said.....now go take your toys home if you can't learn to play together!

2 ( +7 / -5 )

How much does it cost for the jet fuel to scramble F-15's 200 times?? These pilots must be the best practiced at scrambling on the face of the planet!

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Did!

Didn't!

Did!

Didn't!

DId, did, double did!

4 ( +10 / -6 )

China is toying with Japan, enticing Japan to take the first strike, at which point China will feel justified to retaliate with overwhelming force.

The saddest part of this whole fiasco, Abe is playing right into the hands of the PLA.

The scariest part of that: the CCP knew all along that Abe would fall for it.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Anyone familiar with the JSDF knows that their don't light up anything without orders. Anyone who is familiar with the PLA Air Force knows that some of their pilots are crazy. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/02/world/us-plane-in-china-after-it-collides-with-chinese-jet.html?pagewanted=all

2 ( +13 / -11 )

Poor old Japan. Ever the victim in every single encounter for the last 200 years...

4 ( +14 / -10 )

“There is absolutely no evidence of provocative actions against the Chinese military aircraft by the Japanese side as in the Chinese defense ministry announcement,” he said. “There is no evidence whatsoever that fire-control radar was locked on.”

Anyone who's familiar with the Japanese knows this is double-speak for "guilty, but you can't prove it!" Notice how he says "We never did that" and just "you have no proof!"?

-3 ( +8 / -12 )

japan needn't say anything at all, the whole world knows it's China who is being provocative and assertive in the region.

10 ( +17 / -6 )

@Spanki

Everyone except 95% of JapanToday commentators lol. Japan is guilty of any and all charges, so pile em on.

-14 ( +7 / -20 )

I completely blame that former JASDF general Orita for this.

The Chinese pilot did entirely the right thing (as far as his country's interests and stated positions are concerned). When intercepted over a place that his country considers his, he rightfully refused to be a lamb and took charge of the situation with his fighter (which he can do because it is more maneuverable than the F-15) and eventually the F-15 backed off. He goes home, reports his small win in the game of brinksmanship to his regimental commander, and nobody even thought that was supposed to be news.

The Japanese government sees it also as something to not get heated about, and also probably a point they don't have too much legitimacy over.

Orita screams. Eventually the Chinese government feels compelled to respond. Then the Japanese government also feels compelled to respond.

-11 ( +3 / -14 )

If you keep lying to yourself, you start believing.

The flip side is, the more falsehoods you issue, the less value your words hold.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

routine patrol in the air ?! what they looking for up there ? I heard university campus patrol .. Shopping center patrol .. But his one I have never heard of it .

0 ( +4 / -4 )

the f-15 does not need to "lock" onto a fighter to get perfect radar returns, f-15 radar has a track while scan (TWS) mode that merely makes a lock on an extremely provocative gesture, politically speaking, and risks a defensive missile launch as a response.

there is precedent for these kinds of incidents starting wars or resulting in shoot downs.

these guys need to stop the sabre rattling before someone gets killed or someone stars a war.

maneuverability has nothing to do with it, at all. they were not dogfighting and the f-15 radar can see much farther than the su-30's can. su-30's don't stand a chance against a pair of f-15 launching a dozen aim-120's at them, but you can bet china has lots more su-27's and 30's and other stuff to keep the pressure on.

but before abe was here nobody cared about these islands and everyone was content to let them just sit in peace, contested but untouched by all.

all this started with abe and ishihara for the sole purpose of stirring the pot.

1 ( +7 / -7 )

Everyone except 95% of JapanToday commentators lol. Japan is guilty of any and all charges, so pile em on.

Which makes me wonder why these commentators even come on this site, are their lives really that dull?

Commenters:

Lets be honest, China is the instigator in the south and east China Sea with their constant incursions into other nations territorial waters with armed vessels and blatant disregard for internationally recognized laws and territories. It's about time someone steps up the pressure against the Chinese. Just because the name China was placed on the body of water does not make it theirs.

I walk into your house un-invited, you and everyone else in the world recognize it as your house but I do not so I keep coming back. The next time I walk into your house would you not chase me out with a baseball bat?

8 ( +13 / -4 )

Put it all into perspective...

Rhetoric is important for the Chinese... it hides their true intentions and is often a cover for some hidden action somewhere. Over the ocean and in waters where Chinese subs as well as ships and boats (both military and supposedly civilian) dominate, there was an intentional action followed by this particular rhetoric.

It is often used as a signal to warn not just Japan but other nations of their intentions and threats, appealing to the international community that they are morally and ethically and legally in the right, to take what ever action necessary (which may be military) and "justify" such action in the eyes of the world. So far as history has proven, Chinese rhetoric is designed to justify their one-sided view and actions which is detrimental to the other parties. Their final concept is "might is right" regardless of the consequences to others.

Their actions come just in the heat of Brexit, Ramadan and Islamic ISIS related terror killings all over, Iran threatening Israel, and US elections with Clinton getting away with ? actions, where world attention is being held elsewhere. Be it instigated (baiting) by China or using N. Korea, China is definitely taking some action which definitely needs and will need "cover". For them "distraction" is heir most convenient cover.

Clinton getting the OK from DJ, relieves Obama of complicity, and by that the dealings between China with Clinton and with Islam such as Saudi Arabia and Iran by Obama now is "hidden" from review. The entire world is much too excited with other things. Whatever information that may have been "allowed" to be leaked intentionally or unintentionally which benefited China and the Islamic nations are at least for now hidden from view and the supporter of both Clinton and Obama are now free to push their agendas.

China right on 4th of July when the only real threat USA was too busy, got caught by Japan.

China still has the Olympics and US Elections to "hide" behind to do their covert activities, now at least by their word and statement, may be justifiable, because Japan did it first or Japan provoked it. Or may be even Philippines or Myanmar. For them it really does not matter. They just need an excuse to start something. Taiwan's misfire of their rocket certainly did not help.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

if you turn on "fire-control radar" how would the other person know if you are locking or looking?

But it's a game of putting finger in face and saying "look I'm not touching you"

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I wonder what is behind the Japanese government's self-imposed restraint regarding provocative actions by China. One possibility is US pressure on Abe.

The last thing the US wants is an armed conflict between Japan and China. As a Japan's ally, the US could be forced into a war with China. If it turned out that the US were unable or unwilling to help its ally, it would lose its superpower status and nobody would ever listen to the US again.

-4 ( +2 / -5 )

China is the instigator....but Japan is the thief sitting calmly sitting on stolen goods. And we have no clear rules to resolves such issues except for one: the rule of war.

-10 ( +0 / -11 )

Chinese accusations that the incident could pose a threat to regional stability.

There is no denial that the biggest and only threat to regional security is China's actions in the region. Well, China will deny it, of course, but that is China.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Just look how much Yen Abe have wasted for this expensive and dangerous sightseeing! The more Abe provoke China with his Collective Defense by sending JSDF to the South China Sea, the more the Chinese fly and sail around Diaoyu/Senkaku.

J pilot hit below the belt by lighting up Chinese jet. This is not professional behavior. J pilot flying past Chinese jet multiple passes. Since the Chinese jet did not light up the Japanese jet, it means the Chinese pilot is more daring than the J pilot who is so fearful for his life he have to depend on electronic measure to 'search' the incoming Chinese jet. Further, he dropped an infrared decoy, fearing the Chinese pilot will shoot. He must be really fearful for his life. Score Chinese pilot 1 J pilot 0

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

The Senkakus were not worth stealing over 100 years ago and they are certainly not worth keeping now. Japan should give them (back) to Taiwan. Does anyone here actually think they are worth any sort of risk?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

China's action are reckless and selfish. Just ask the other countries that China is trying to bully out of the South China Sea. Id own agree with the islands going to either country but China is just going to push and push until it gets what it wants. These flights are going to be more and more common as we go along, and soon enough more and more Chinese vessels will be going there as well, and eventually they will set up shop the first chance they get, just ask the Phillipines

While Japan may not be the correct owner of the islands(I am not to say), its actions are not provocative. It is just protecting what it has held onto for a long time now. China and will continue to destabilise the region and I seriously doubt they care.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The Senkakus were not worth stealing over 100 years ago and they are certainly not worth keeping now. Japan should give them (back) to Taiwan. Does anyone here actually think they are worth any sort of risk?

As far as I know, they sit in some oil-rich seas. Otherwise no one would care.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Jack and the Beanstalk

Senkaku became worth stealing in 1969 when the United Nations Economic Commission for Asia and the Far East (ECAFE) identified potential oil and gas reserves in the vicinity of the Senkaku Islands. Taiwan and China only started claiming ownership of the islands afterwards.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

two Chinese Su-30 jets were conducting a routine patrol when two Japanese F-15 fighters approached

Chinese "routine patrol" in Japanese Air Defense Identification Zone is provocation in itself.

China will start "routine patrol" over Hawaii soon, for China does not recognize US sovereignty of Hawaii.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/10/china-threatens-arm-hawaii-separatists-who-want-ki/

HONOLULU — China has suggested arming Hawaii’s independence activists in retaliation for U.S. arms sales to Taiwan and recently threatened to challenge American sovereignty by making legal claims to the Pacific islands as its territory.

Another indicator of Chinese interest in fomenting unrest in Hawaii surfaced in 2012 when Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton revealed that Beijing threatened to assert legal, territorial claims over Hawaii.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Fre Okin. Seriously?

Just look how much Yen Abe have wasted for this expensive and dangerous sightseeing!

How about China's dangerous actions of encroaching on and taking over places that do not belong to it in the South China sea?

Abe provoke China with his Collective Defense by sending JSDF to the South China Sea, the more the Chinese fly and sail around Diaoyu/Senkaku.

You have it completely backwards. The sending of JSDF is in response to the provocative and dangerous actions committed by the Chinese. They are the ones who keep entering the area that are not controlled by them. Japan controls the islands for now, therefore it has every right to send in the JSDF to ensure their control over them.

J pilot hit below the belt by lighting up Chinese jet.

Um, no! The Chinese jet should not have been there in the first place. Don't want to get lit up? Then don't make provocative flights that make the other country scrambles its jets to get your silly self out of an area that you don't control or should be in. You waste the other country's tax payer dollars with this nonsense and that is below the belt because you should be behaving like a good neighbour and not an unwanted guest who is trying to bully his your way into someone's house in order to stay permanently.

J pilot flying past Chinese jet multiple passes

I did not see THAT part of the story here. Could your information becoming from the Chinese government that lacks freedom of the press? I would bet my money on it.

Since the Chinese jet did not light up the Japanese jet

Don't you mean COULDN'T???

the Chinese pilot is more daring than the J pilot

Not even close! Foolish, yes.

J pilot who is so fearful for his life he have to depend on electronic measure to 'search' the incoming Chinese jet. Further, he dropped an infrared decoy, fearing the Chinese pilot will shoot. He must be really fearful for his life.

He did what he should do. He probably was fearful for his life because the Chinese actions were aggressive and encroaching on territory that the Chinese do not possess while also knowing that China is just looking for any opportunity to take over the islands because the Chinese government does not care a single thing for anyone's lives.

Score Chinese pilot 1 J pilot 0

No, once again incorrect.

Provocative and dangerous Chinese Pilot 1 JAPANESE pilot 0 You can not even be respectful by typing in the full word, "Japanese". This shows how little respect you have for the Japanese, which means emotion might be taking over for rationale. You typed China or Chinese 9 times. Japan or Japanese 0.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The Senkakus were not worth stealing over 100 years ago and they are certainly not worth keeping now. Japan should give them (back) to Taiwan. Does anyone here actually think they are worth any sort of risk?

Stolen from who? You can't steal something that didn't belong to anyone. They were terra nullius (owned by no one) prior to the 1890's before being legally acquired by Japan. Just because China named it on a map in the 16th Century does not make it China's, because if we followed the mindset the British and the Dutch also marked it on maps giving them equal claim. That being said, the islands were incorporated with the Ryukyu Archipelago and returned in 1972 with the Okinawa Reversion deal. So lay off it, you're argument has no ground to stand on, hopefully there will be no ground to stand on in China's illegal man made islands one day too.

And, anyone familiar with this venue knows that it is a magnet for Japan bashers who can get away making statements about the Japanese that they could not get away with making about any other national or ethnic group without being called out as racists.

You hit the nail on the head, its amazing what people are able to get away with because of things that happened in a past that most Japanese were not involved in or alive for. Some of the discriminatory policies San Francisco has taken up against the Japanese is just disgusting.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

What amazes me about all this is that it is not OTHER countries that are chased out of areas that have been controlled by the CHINESE for a long time. It is the CHINESE who are constantly barging into and trying to control areas that OTHER countries have long since held on to.

It is the CHINESE who are destabilising the region by acting like unwanted guests trying to move people out.

If they were not constantly doing these very things, we would not be talking about this.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

1..2..3..4..I declare a thumb war! This would be preferable

0 ( +1 / -1 )

china should establish a missile base on the senkakus. then no need to scramble.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

You have it completely backwards. The sending of JSDF is in response to the provocative and dangerous actions committed by the Chinese. They are the ones who keep entering the area that are not controlled by them. Japan controls the islands for now, therefore it has every right to send in the JSDF to ensure their control over them.

You must remember that said islands are unoccupied.

I think we need to separate two issues here that people are intermixing. First, the validity of China's claim. Personally, I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on there. Japan played by modern international rules when it incorporated the islands, and that was about that. However, there is sufficient literature (and not by Chinese, Western) to say that at least China's claim is not a priori invalid in the eyes of the world. Certainly, there are many JapanToday commentators calling on Japan to "recognize" the dispute and whatever, so it is not a "dead on arrival" view here.

Second, whether the Chinese are being particularly provocative. And other cases notwithstanding, this time, I don't think so. If we accept the idea that a) China's claim has some validity and b) sending fighters to said island is worth points in establishing sovereignty (and certainly both sides seem to think so), then a ruling that says one side in the dispute is banned from sending fighters would clearly be unfair.

Third, even reading the Japanese sources, it seems clear that the Japanese were the ones that threw the first "punch" here. It seems they were hoping the Chinese will stay still while they came in from the back, sidled up to the side and fired warning shots. Such moronic expectations are a big cause of what happens today.

@James BurkeJUL. 06, 2016 - 09:43AM JST

the f-15 does not need to "lock" onto a fighter to get perfect radar returns, f-15 radar has a track while scan (TWS) mode that merely makes a lock on an extremely provocative gesture, politically speaking, and risks a defensive missile launch as a response.

The TWS mode basically means the system sweeps the target every few seconds and interpolates the course and speed for the seconds target is not being actively illuminated. The solution thus produced is adequate for a missile with self-homing capabilty, but is inadequate for a semi-active missile and may not be adequate for close-in work - dogfighting combat modes are often single-locks.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiJUL. 06, 2016 - 02:27PM JST

You must remember that said islands are unoccupied.

It has been occupied by Japan. No one lives there, but Japan has uninterrupted control of the island since 1972.

In 2012, when Chinese activists illegally landed on the Senkakus, Japanese police on the island arrested them.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2012/08/16/national/chinese-activists-land-on-senkaku-islet-japan-arrests-14/#.V3ydG9KLTDd

The seven activists who landed on the islet of Uotsuri at 5:31 p.m. were met by about 30 Japan Coast Guardsmen, police and immigration authorities who had arrived beforehand. Two of the seven returned to their vessel while the other five were interrogated by immigration officers and arrested on suspicion of illegal entry, Okinawa police said, adding that nobody was injured on either side.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-19264633

Officials told the BBC that two activists returned to the boat, while the other five were arrested on land.

Kazuaki ShimazakiJUL. 06, 2016 - 02:27PM JST

Second, whether the Chinese are being particularly provocative.

They are provocative, because they entered into Japanese ADIZ.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

They could release data from the plane's system to prove it if they really felt like it.

I don't trust China. They provoke all along their coastline and beyond.

Their words means absolutely nothing.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

It has been occupied by Japan.

Yes, before WWII.

No one lives there, but Japan has uninterrupted control of the island since 1972.

Here's the problem with your basic strategy: You have justified Japan's sovereignty in terms of acts of control. That would seem to be a common international perspective, so you aren't wrong there. However, if you use acts of control as the measure, you are in a very weak position to deny the other contestant the right to some acts of control of his own, certainly to the extent no interests arguably more important (such as lives) were actually harmed.

They are provocative, because they entered into Japanese ADIZ.

ADIZ is something without basis in international law. In effect, it is nothing more than a declaration of a policy to check out aircraft flying in a certain area. It does not confer the Japanese fighters the right to, for example, act like they are "boss".

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@Kazuaaki - Forgive me but, nonsense. The islands are controlled by Japan, not China. Wether the islands belong to China or Japan is right now, irrelevant. Japan controls them and has done so for decades and decades. And China's is trying to wrestle control of them by bullying and encroachment.

These actions are dangerous and are only escalating tensions in the region and between the two. There has to be diplomacy first and foremost between the two, not the actions that China is guilty of.

Have you ever noticed that it is always CHINA doing these things and NEVER anybody else? When was the last time in past half a century or so that Japan harassed its neighbours by entering the area that was controlled by them? Never? Now, can you count the number of times that China has done that to all of its neighbours? Hundreds of times. Just ask around.

China is trying to bully all of its neighbours and ASEAN should stand up against it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@sandiegoluvJUL. 06, 2016 - 05:08PM JST

Forgive me but, nonsense. The islands are controlled by Japan, not China. Wether the islands belong to China or Japan is right now, irrelevant. Japan controls them and has done so for decades and decades. And China's is trying to wrestle control of them by bullying and encroachment.

Stop, stop stop. They sent about TWO fighters, and Japan got bullied?

If anything, based on what Japanese bleaters have inadvertently admitted so far, on this particular case, Japan acted and thought like a bully that's dominant for so long he's gone complacent. You know that kind of bully that thinks your existence is at his tolerance and you had better not even growl at his excesses. They were shocked when China bit back.

There has to be diplomacy first and foremost between the two, not the actions that China is guilty of.

Diplomacy doesn't really work when it comes to sovereignty, because that's a 1:0 deal. Even bleats like "joint development" can't get away from sovereignty because the sovereign will determine on what terms such joint development will take place.

China is trying to bully all of its neighbours and ASEAN should stand up against it.

I actually agree with this sentiment, and usually in these cases I'm not on China's side (check my record). However, such general sentiments should not stop us from looking at each incident as an individual case (at least with the limited info we can obtain), and if every so often China's case is better than its opposition, we should be willing to openly say so.

We who are not interested parties are supposed to be the fair brokers.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiJUL. 06, 2016 - 05:43PM JST

Diplomacy doesn't really work when it comes to sovereignty, because that's a 1:0 deal.

So? Are you advocating a war?

This is why we need to teach China and likes of you a lesson.

UN Charter

http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/un-charter-full-text/index.html

Article 2

The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.

All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.

All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.

The world community has moved from the age of wars to the age of peaceful diplomatic relations. China is way behind in this regard, and certainly not worthy of permanent seat in the Security Council.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@CH3CHOJUL. 06, 2016 - 06:48PM JST

If you are watching close, CH3, you might notice that this formula kind of goes out the window even in theory when a territorial dispute is involved because from the viewpoint of the "have-not" side, their territorial integrity is already damaged, which would actually entitle them to self-defense measures under Article 51!

I might also point out that the Chinese were being pretty peaceful this time. They sent two fighters to assert their rights. Things got unpeaceful when the ASDF decided to intercept them with force and moved into a threatening position.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@Kazuaki

Stop, stop stop. They sent about TWO fighters, and Japan got bullied?

Should you not be telling China to stop, stop, stop? I think so. Chinese military planes about 200 times in April, May, and June, up more than 80 from last year in the same period. Yes,that is a form of bullying. If someone harass another person 200 times in one year, it is bullying and harassment. Why were those jets scrambled? Because Japan was entering into accepted and long held Chinese waters and territory? No, of course not. China was doing that to Japan. That is a sense of bullying just like it has done throughout the whole of the South China sea.

Japan acted and thought like a bully that's dominant for so long he's gone complacent. You know that kind of bully that thinks your existence is at his tolerance and you had better not even growl at his excesses. They were shocked when China bit back.

Are you actually listening to yourself? Seriously? The bully that thinks the others existence is at his tolerance is China. Um, China did not bite back. You guys are whinning about a Japanese pilot biting back! You got things seriously backwards.

Diplomacy doesn't really work when it comes to sovereignty

You are so right there. It does not work because China refuses to work through diplomacy but uses harassment and occupation to take over what it wants. It will never follow what the Hague said.

"China will not accept "tainted" arbitration on the South China Sea issue as a ruling by The Hague on a complaint lodged by the Philippines is going to be announced later this year, Foreign Minister Wang Yi said on Tuesday."

China does not believe in diplomacy unless it gets what it wants and if it doesn't it resorts to these types of actions.

i actually agree with this sentiment, and usually in these cases I'm not on China's side (check my record). However, such general sentiments should not stop us from looking at each incident as an individual case (at least with the limited info we can obtain), and if every so often China's case is better than its opposition, we should be willing to openly say so.

That is all fine and good but the reality is that we have to look at the actions taken by China, 200 this year alone to be exact. These are dangerous actions that should not take place. The ones causing a hazard here are the encroachers, not the tenants. I believe in being open minded on the issue but you have to recognise that this is the Chinese way. It is business as usual for them. Once someone violates another's controlled area 200 times in less than 6 months, one can assume that they are in the wrong. And frankly, duh? They were wrong. And wether you like it or not, once again, we would not be talking about this if China was not doing these things. Diplomacy that makes both parties happy is the only solution. Japan should never ever allow Chinese aircraft or ships in their area until the situation is worked out.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I might also point out that the Chinese were being pretty peaceful this time. They sent two fighters to assert their rights.

Sending fighters to an area that is controlled by another nation is not peaceful. There are a lot more peaceful as well as effective ways to make assertion like filing a claim at ICJ which Japan is more then happy to accept.

No sending a fighter is basically sending thugs to make unfounded claim to land where there is a legally accepted owner.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@sandiegoluv JUL. 06, 2016 - 08:10PM JST

Chinese military planes about 200 times in April, May, and June, up more than 80 from last year in the same period.

You must understand, sandie, that this is not a legitimate complaint. They have every right to be there. Japan chose to send fighters up to look at them. That's fair enough, but they are not at fault as long as they don't actually enter territorial airspace. If anything, you can argue that the intercepts are harassment against Chinese aircraft that might just be on a training mission.

Um, China did not bite back.

Did you even read the Japanese bleat account? In essence, the Japanese admitted to preparing for shooting in what was either 1) international airspace or 2) disputed airspace - it is not clear exactly which minute of latitude and longitude they were on.

It will never follow what the Hague said.

Don't change topics. I don't agree with their choice there.

Once someone violates another's controlled area 200 times in less than 6 months, one can assume that they are in the wrong.

Even the Japanese are not saying that they have intruded into territorial airspace "200 times" you know. They were just flying East and if you fly East from China eventually you'll get close to Japan. The Japanese chose to send fighters up to take a look. You can imagine if no fighters came up they'll intrude, but that's ultimately imagination and not reality.

@TriringJUL. 06, 2016 - 08:50PM JST

There are a lot more peaceful as well as effective ways to make assertion like filing a claim at ICJ which Japan is more then happy to accept.

They hadn't even admitted there is a dispute yet, the last time I checked.

Further, even if one decides to file a lawsuit, it is not wrong to take actions that will improve your odds before doing so. Since both sides seem to tacitly agree examples of effective control will help their case, it is entirely reasonable for China to try and establish these cases before ever taking it to court.

unfounded claim to land where there is a legally accepted owner.

Read my 2:27 JST to see what I think of the Chinese claim. Ironically, however, the world does not act at all like China's claim is unfounded. They tend to make meaningless bleats for restraint while claiming neutrality on the sovereignty issue that's at the very core.

Under these circumstances, since the validity of the Chinese claim is not broken, by logic they can press on.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

They hadn't even admitted there is a dispute yet, the last time I checked.

Japan does not recognize it as a dispute, it's just another nation rambling about their ambition or something. Until Japan is notified by a third party that they has been a formal request for them to mediate two party's claim in which PRC filed the claim there is no dispute. In other words Japan will only recognize a dispute if and when PRC files that claim to ICJ. Until then it just a rowdy neighboring nation that is trying to make assertion through force to a legally owned sovereign territory that had been recognized by the world.

So no to Japan's eyes PRC has no right to enter those area and Japan will use all means necessary to remove those forceful intrusions.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

As far as I know, they sit in some oil-rich seas. Otherwise no one would care.

And who has gotten oil out them so far? I don't think they were worth stealing and I don't think they are worth a war either. But then, I am not a fat cat standing to profit from them or war. Is it worth it to the people of Japan? I don't think so.

They were terra nullius (owned by no one) prior to the 1890's before being legally acquired by Japan.

Japan unilaterally declaring them to be terra nullius does not make it a fact. In fact, Japan put off trying to claim the islands for ten years knowing perfectly well China would protest. Then Japan "claimed" the islands in the middle of their first war with China, and the reason is obvious; because diplomacy was no longer a bar to their thieving ambitions. They could just take what they wanted. People like you always like shout "terra nullius" as if it happened in peace time and China just sat there and said nothing. It was literally in the middle of a war when Japan grabbed the islands from China, and there was no U.N. to complain to at the time. They also took Taiwan, the Pescadores islands and Korea. Their claim on them still valid too?

Some of you seriously need to wake up and realize that not liking China on your part does not mean they have no valid claims. And liking Japan does not make Japan golden and legit. Japan stole those islands at the exact same time they stole Korea and stole the rest of Taiwan during the First Sino-Japanese War. It was a period of time when all the Japanese did was steal, and the Senkakus are no exception. Heck, they even called the islands by their Chinese names at the time! The name Senkaku had to be invented later!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Japan unilaterally declaring them to be terra nullius does not make it a fact. In fact, Japan put off trying to claim the islands for ten years knowing perfectly well China would protest. Then Japan "claimed" the islands in the middle of their first war with China, and the reason is obvious; because diplomacy was no longer a bar to their thieving ambitions. They could just take what they wanted. People like you always like shout "terra nullius" as if it happened in peace time and China just sat there and said nothing.

Bro, grab a history book. They were recognized as terra nullius well before the First Sino War, even when European cartographers were marking the locations on maps; to the British they were the Pinnacle Islands. The Chinese literally never even set foot on the islands and only used them for maritime navigation check points. You can't unilaterally declare something if the rest of the world agrees. Now China's current actions up and down the East & South Asia are unilateral. You can't fight it, the islands were never yours to begin with, so give it a rest. The islands are Japanese.

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@sandiegoluv

FYI "Citing unnamed government sources, the Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun said last week that the Chinese aircraft refused to retreat despite being warned and that jets from both sides flew at each other several times."

J pilot acted unprofessionally by lighting up the Chinese jet, much like a driver turn on headlight to warn off opposite driver to avoid a collision. J pilot want the Chinese pilot to veer off to avoid a collision. J pilot should fight like a man, be willing to have a head on collision with the Chinese pilot, but apparently he chickened out and resort to electronic warfare. Score Chinese pilot 1, J pilot 0 for Bravery.

US is the granddaddy of Freedom of Navigation. China merely follow what US do, be it, in South China Sea or East China Sea in places that are in dispute. So nothing wrong for the Chinese to express FON around Diaoyu/Senkaku, sailing, flying within 12 NM.

Abe should stop sending ASDF into harm's way. He is deceiving the Japanese people, hyping the China Danger where there is virtually none. He try to distract the Japanese people from his failed Abenomics and his attempt to revise Article 9 J Constitution. If China actually occupy Diaoyu/Senkaku, then he got a case, but right now, all these scramblings of fighter jets are a political scheme to hype the Chinese threat to divert attention from his other agenda and woes aforementioned.

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Bro, grab a history book.

Comments like this are freaking hilarious. As if these tiny islands are discussed in such details in common history books! And when they are, its all unbiased! But anyway, if any Europeans of the 1700s had believed them to be truly terra nullius, they would have claimed them, just like they claimed and still hold tiny islands all over the world. I mean, dude, obviously. But they and the Japanese and Ryukyuans too, called them by their Chinese names, as a group and individually. And they would not have dared tried to claim them until fully militarized so as to just take them, just as the Japanese did. The Japanese waited ten years and war to make the move, because they knew full well they were stealing.

And why would the Chinese be fairly subject to European laws and concepts of the time? There were no treaties with China about such things. Why should they be required to fulfill somebody else's ideas of control and ownership, half a world away? The idea of terra nullius comes from Roman law. After the Romans it was used to steal non-Christian lands in the middle ages. Its nothing to do with China, and China was never consulted.

As for this claim that China did not care and did not press a claim until gas and oil were discovered, do you know what year the PRC was finally admitted to the U.N.? 1971. They made ownership claims to the U.N. in 1972. They could not do that before. It was not possible as a non-member of the U.N.

And I am not even saying China has the best claim. All I am saying is that China has a pretty decent claim all told, and Japan's claim is much flimsier than pro-Japan pundits want to believe. Even if Japan can be said to have a better claim, it was arrived at so scummily and by means so against today's constitution, they should simply renounce the claim and give the islands to Taiwan. Or just keep being scummy.

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@Jack and the Beanstalk JUL. 06, 2016 - 11:38PM JST

Japan unilaterally declaring them to be terra nullius does not make it a fact. In fact, Japan put off trying to claim the islands for ten years knowing perfectly well China would protest.

The Foreign Minister thought China would protest, but that's not the same as thinking it is in any way Chinese territory. If there's this little island that I barely even know about and someone claims it bringing it onto my radar, I'll consider competing for the claim too, if only to stop THEM from claiming it. Back then, people actually fight wars over islands so they are more cautious before making claims on little rocks.

Ironically, the whole "world community has moved from the age of wars to the age of peaceful diplomatic relations" bit meant that it has become pretty cheap to maintain claims on meaningless little rocks, meaning that such problems never get solved.

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If there's this little island that I barely even know about and someone claims it bringing it onto my radar, I'll consider competing for the claim too

All that indicates to me is a complete lack of confidence in the claim of terra nullius. If one had full confidence, that would give no concern. It never stopped any of the European powers claiming islands. Britain didn't pass up a chance because France might be alerted and try to claim the same. Either one has an honest claim and makes it, or one doesn't have an honest claim, knows it, and buries it until it can be forced. Japan was clearly in the latter camp. This is further seen in the incongruity of Japan simultaneously claiming terra nullius but also claiming the islands are an integral part of Japan/Ryukyu dating back to ancient times. And this despite the fact the islands didn't have Ryukyuan names. Japan is just piling lie on top of lie.

Also, it seems to me that everyone in medieval/ Renaissance times had a policy of regarding these islands as a buffer zone, like the neutral zone in Star Trek. Sure, it was not formal, but it was respected. But then Japan decided to unilaterally adopt the European style rules, not only in claiming terra nullius, but also in colonization, rules of ownership and land grabs. It was totally just not right or fair. If China did not make a claim to the islands, they did not see the need according to the precedents already set. The islands had Chinese names and even the Japanese maps reflected them. If anyone asked who the islands belonged to, everyone would have agreed it was China. Its much like going to some uninhabited mountain top in the middle of China that no one bothers with and claiming it as your own. Why not? What is the effective difference?

Ironically, the whole "world community has moved from the age of wars to the age of peaceful diplomatic relations" bit meant that it has become pretty cheap to maintain claims on meaningless little rocks, meaning that such problems never get solved.

That might be about to change. China is not going to take the short end of the stick any more, and sadly cannot even see how it is dealing the short of the stick to Taiwan and Tibet. In my world, truly, EVERY country sucks.

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Did those Chinese fighters fly within 12nm within the disputed islands? If not, why is Japan even wasting money to intercept? Its call freedom of passage. Something US does all the time and I"m sure Japan has that right as well. Whether or not Japan chooses to exercise that right is another matter for discussion.

But if China and US are doing this, and it is legal to do so, why bother? Why waste all that money, time, stress and at the same time giving away vital strategic and military information?

This seems a bit paranoid to me. If this is all about pride, then its not very practical especially in a economic recession along with the failure of abenomics.

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Because when you start scramble launch after they pass the 12nm line the intruding plane will be at populated area by the time the intercepting JASDF plane reaches them.

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@Kazuaki

You must understand, sandie, that this is not a legitimate complaint. They have every right to be there. Japan chose to send fighters up to look at them. That's fair enough, but they are not at fault as long as they don't actually enter territorial airspace. If anything, you can argue that the intercepts are harassment against Chinese aircraft that might just be on a training mission.

Nonsense. The actions are provocative and are meant to harass .Such actions will get a response from any other country that it happens to as well. You fly in the direction of ANY country's airspace with out requesting permission, it will scramble jets. China is playing the child's game. "My hand is in your face, but I am not touching you." China is purposefully trying to get Japan to react so that it can act as the victim. It has done the same thing throughout the south china sea. It slowly encroaches on other's lands little by little and then takes over. Japan has every right to do what it has done. Don't want to be lit up? Don't enter property that is controlled by someone else. It really is quite simple and all of your excuses will never convince anyone.

it is not clear exactly which minute of latitude and longitude they were on.

Exactly. But it was too close for comfort and Japan did what any nation on the planet with a military does. It is in an unwelcome intrusion. How much of a respectful neighbour do you have if he says the land that you live on is his and continues coming on the property and hoovering around it? Not acceptable.

Even the Japanese are not saying that they have intruded into territorial airspace "200 times" you know. They were just flying East and if you fly East from China eventually you'll get close to Japan. The Japanese chose to send fighters up to take a look.

Nonsense again. The fact is that China is purposefully conducting these actions to get a response. Japan is not doing that. It is for the most part being a good neighbour. China is doing this with very ill intentions in mind. You know and so does every one else. We would not be having this conversation if China was a respectful neighbour to all of its neighbours. It is not just Japan. Just ask Vietnam, the Philippines and everyone else that China is muscling out of its way. Shame. Shame. Shame.

@J Fre Okin

pilot acted unprofessionally by lighting up the Chinese jet

No, C jets should not have been there in the first place. That is unprofessional. And lets count the times again, 200!!! Dont like it? Don't go into someone's area or act like you are. If you come into my area and I have the ability to stop you by lighting you up, you will be.

pilot should fight like a man, be willing to have a head on collision with the Chinese pilot, but apparently he chickened out and resort to electronic warfare. Score Chinese pilot 1, J pilot 0 for Bravery.

Comments like these are at best ridiculous. False bravado from someone who is not even a pilot. You have no respect for either man's life and should not be making such terrible comments. Shame of you for that. C pilot wants to have a head on collision with JAPANESE PILOT so both men can leave their families without them and start an East Asian war that could cost the lives of thousands and thousands? Preposterous and selfish to say the least. Think about what you are saying. If that pilot wanted to do that, then it is he who is the most unprofessional. Thank god the JAPANESE pilot had the sense NOT to. SMH. Stupidity and irresponsible. C Pilot 1 - Japanese pilot 0

US is the granddaddy of Freedom of Navigation. China merely follow what US do, be it, in South China Sea or East China Sea in places that are in dispute.

No, no, no, no. The US does not encroach on other's countries land without direct permission unless it is a war that it is fighting in. You have it completely wrong. Only Russia and China constantly do that. the USA scrambles jets all the time because Russia does the same thing to it that China is doing to Japan.

Abe should stop sending ASDF into harm's way. He is deceiving the Japanese people, hyping the China Danger where there is virtually none. He try to distract the Japanese people from his failed Abenomics and his attempt to revise Article 9 J Constitution. If China actually occupy Diaoyu/Senkaku, then he got a case, but right now, all these scramblings of fighter jets are a political scheme to hype the Chinese threat to divert attention from his other agenda and woes aforementioned.

You gotta be kidding me here. The C danger is real. Ask the Philippines that had their island taken over. Do you think that none of us see the actions that are taking place in the South China Sea? Seriously? There is a danger and that is C. It is trying to take over the South China Sea. It has arbitrarily made a nine dash line that covers 90% of it. C's intention is to control the whole thing. This would be dangerous and can only benefit C.

http://time.com/4244301/china-philippines-jackson-atoll-south-china-sea/

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