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© KYODOJapan drops to 104th in gender disparity rank in World Bank survey
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David Brent
The OLs at my company earn 150,000 yen per month before taxes; that's for M-F, 8:30am - 5:30pm.
I sat in on an interview recently and I honestly wanted the ground to swallow me up when the salary was mentioned. Absolutely disgusting.
Spitfire
So much for 'womenomics.'
Absolutely shameful.
Those geriatric conservatives 'leading' this country are taking down the toilet.
Mr Kipling
Don't worry, they will all be replaced with AI in the near future so they can stay home and look after the kids, sorry I mean elderly relatives.
M3M3M3
I can't help but notice that the article fails to provide even a single example of a right granted to Japanese men but denied to women.
I'm not against granting special rights to women (such as counting pregnancy and child rearing years into pension calculations and so on) but let's be honest about what we're actually advocating for.
Jay
Have the people crunching the numbers on this for one iota considered that women in Japan are more attracted to jobs that generally pay less than jobs that attract men (ie preschool teachers vs engineers)?
Or that women in Japan are generally more agreeable than men and therefore do not negotiate as aggressively, leading to lower paying wages for similar jobs, if there are companies that are actually skirting the law, that is?
I'm not saying the gender pay gap here doesn’t exist, buy I am saying it doesn’t exist because of gender.
smithinjapan
M3M3M3: "I can't help but notice that the article fails to provide even a single example of a right granted to Japanese men but denied to women."
Becoming Emperor, setting foot in a sumo ring (even if a person is dying), setting foot on a certain Shinto island, just to quickly name three.
Spitfire
@Jay,
Take a good luck around.
There are tons of women who would love to climb up the social ladder but they aren't able to simply because they weren't born with a you know what.
104th in the world truly embarrassing.
John-San
If a Japanese company refuse a position to a women who has the ability they would face legal action. They have the same legal framework like most western counties. Japanese women don't want these position simple.
smithinjapan
And anyway, M3M3M3, it's not just about being denied certain things, it's cultural expectations, which in turn more or less require women to stay home and care for the kids (true, men can get up to two to six weeks off now in some major companies). There are glass ceilings all over the place, very, very few women hold the rank of CEO or very high positions in government, and ask a Japanese person this riddle:
"A man and his son are driving down the expressway and have a terrible accident. The man is killed instantly, and his son is critically injured. He is carried to a nearby hospital by ambulance and upon entering the operating room the surgeon looks at the young man and says, 'I cannot operate on him... he's my son!' Who is the surgeon?"
Not a single person I have asked in Japan has provided the correct answer, and have come up with the craziest answers you could imagine instead.
wolfshine
Unsurprisingly, the actual World Bank survey is difficult to locate online, and none of the various Japanese media outlets (Kyodo, Japan Times, NHK, JT) provide a link to the actual rankings. Couldn't find it after a Google search, either.
I believe that the reason for this is that the results are actually a lot more controversial than we would be led to believe. To expect Japan to be behind maybe twenty or thirty other developed nations is within the realm of predictability. But to be at 104th, hmmm... no, sorry. Even with many of the women's issues that still exist in Japan today, such a statement is farcical. At the end of the day, the World Bank is just another globalist entity pulling more devious globalist shenanigans.
M3M3M3
@smithinjapan
This is an entirely different discussion where we probably agree, but I'm interested in the article's claim that women do not have the same rights as men.
Unless your career goal is to become an Empress, none of these points seem particularly relevant to the economic opportunities of most women. There are no laws forbidding women from entering a sumo ring or a Shinto island. These are simply requests from certain private property owners. There are female sumo wrestling associations.
John-San
Smithinjapan. They will get if you say Our son. I get annoy when people say me children like the other parent don't exits. It take two people to produce a child or children therefore the correct English is "our child or our children"
wallace
Equal opportunities should exist by law for everyone.
garypen
I'm shocked, SHOCKED! Well, not really that shocked.
wolfshine
While I still can't find this specific World Bank study, I was able to find other surveys from other organizations. Not sure if there are correlations in the data.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gender-equality-by-country
Problems immediately begin to arise when you look at the country rankings. Citing the study from above, I see Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Kyrgyzstan, Myanmar, China, Liberia, Venezuela, Russia, Kazakhstan, El Salvador, Cuba, and many other bright and beautiful places being listed as higher in terms of gender equality. Judging by Japan's place in this survey, I can't imagine the World Bank one would be much different.
Although, strange as it may seem, I just don't think there are that many Japanese women fleeing the nightmare that is their homeland to seek great economic opportunities in those other countries I mentioned.
You know what is reducing wealth and destroying economic opportunity for everyone? Central banking and the unlimited printing of money.
nakanoguy01
Aren't women to blame for the "dire" situation they find themselves in? If you don't exercise your right to vote, or you are voting for the same party, or you don't demand equal pay for equal work, then nothing will ever change. Black people weren't just given equal rights in America, they had to fight tooth and nail for civil rights legislation to pass.
Meiyouwenti
Japan didn’t ask the World Bank to make the country ranking of gender equality. The report was obviously written by representative from high-scoring countries.
FizzBit
In other news, the Gender Equality commission is forecasting record inflation for 2024.
John-San
In certain areas in Japan women are give exclusive fishing right over man. They are the Ami divers. They are free diver non assisted. They dive for shell fish and over invertebrates. They are licensed diver and when retiring that licence will go to only a women not a man.
wallace
John-San
That is not right. Women are Ami divers solely because they breathe in a different way than men. They are able to reach the bottom for their catches.
William77
Japan in many aspects is still a developing country.
Randy Johnson
David BrentToday 04:51 pm JST
The OLs at my company earn 150,000 yen per month before taxes; that's for M-F, 8:30am - 5:30pm.
I sat in on an interview recently and I honestly wanted the ground to swallow me up when the salary was mentioned. Absolutely disgusting.
2( +11 / -9 )
That type of position is not a long-term position and everyone knows it, plus any serious career-minded woman would never consider that type of job.
Truth be told, that position is for young women who have no career ambition, rather they are biding time to seek out a husband.
If one thinks about it, the companies are doing society a favor by employing these types of women to get them mingling in society to fullfil their needs and wants.
itsonlyrocknroll
A while back, at our Friday izakaya giggle juice night colleagues asked me why I a women, behaved, sound and act at work like a man.
To be honest I was stunned and a tad hurt.
This could be the culture, J girls and women demeanour should be acquiescent, women should never kick the chairs, and verbally harangue failure.
In London as a quant you had to stake your claim, regardless of gender. Women in Japan could be a tad more upfront and ambitious.
rcch
“ Among other G7 members, Canada, Germany and France each scored 100 on the index, which means that women are on an equal legal standing with men in all of the areas measured. “
Germany**, France and Canada…; three great nations with a future…; keep up the good work. Japan… an amazing** (and complex/complicated) country…; unfortunately, when it comes to gender equality, Japan still has a long way to go.
Randy Johnson
Let's be honest. Seriously. Be honest.
A large percentage of japanese women have little to no career ambition. Seriously. Come on, be honest.
In saying that, I FULLY back any individual who want to further themself in their life.
John-San
Wallace do your research, They are licence and the licence can only be passed onto a female. Yes there better at diving but man can not get a licence to dive in those areas revered for Ami diver only.
Brian Wheway
@garypen, do you mean slightly suprised?
Moonraker
I don't wanna hear it. As won't many others.
Mark
This goes Hand In Hand with the drop in Birth Rates too, think about that for a while.
divinda
@itsonlyrocknroll
+1
Good for you.
garypen
It just goes to show you the antiquated culture here in regards to how gender roles are viewed.
It's most definitely the culture.
BTW, what is "kick the chairs"? Is that a euphemism, or is it literally the act of kicking chairs? If the latter, why are people kicking chairs?
Sanjinosebleed
With bands like AKB 48 and terminology like Christmas cake what the hell do people expect?! Japan is about 50 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to women’s rights!
Jtsnose
Hopefully, Japan will do better in years to come . . . . many of the Japanese women I have met, and Japanese women seem to be happy there . . . .hopefully, Japan can pinpoint what is holding equality back and do better for the future . . . .
ThonTaddeo
@M3M3M3 and Wolfshine - I've actually read the full text of the report in past years. The headline "gender gap" is a little deceptive, as the study only measures how far women are behind men in each area, and if women are ahead, there is no penalty. So countries where women outlive men, go to college more often, and the like get perfect scores in those areas, no matter how big the gap is. Indeed, a country that banned boys from being educated entirely would still get a perfect score, which is nonsense if you're measuring gaps but could at least be understandable if the title were "women's equality index".
Many of the countries outscoring Japan are places where both sexes are treated badly, but their men are treated worse than their women so their scores end up looking good.
If they just called this study the "Women's Empowerment Index", it would be fine. It almost makes the cynic and conspiracy theorist in me wonder if they intentionally did it this way so that people would read the methodology, dismiss the study as a deception, and ignore the aspects of Japanese society where women really are mistreated.
Moonraker
It's the unique culture.
Jtsnose
What many do not understand . . . when it comes to pay - People come first, those persons who have responsibilities at home - supporting children & spouse - require greater pay . . . . whoever does the job better, has to be based on proven results . . . . Japan should also look to where they are best directing their funds. For example, during the recent pandemic Japan was unable to come up with an internationally acceptable vaccine and had to resort to buying US vaccines - perhaps Japan should direct more funding for medical research, to mention one - the list goes on . . . .
wolfshine
@ThonTaddeo my thoughts exactly.
If you take a country like Venezuela for example, due to the extreme poverty, one could look at the situation and easily come to the conclusion, "Well... both sexes are equally poor... so I guess it counts as economic equality!!"... When in reality, since no wealth is being produced at all, there is no way to even accurately determine the level of women's empowerment. If wealth were being produced, would women even have equal access to economic opportunity? There's actually no way to know for sure, which is why these ranking systems are so terrible. Putting that point aside, especially in South and Central America, some of the crimes that have been committed against women are absolutely barbaric and appalling.
Of course, without question, Japan is a better country for women to live in than Venezuela, and many others. Sure, the situation is not entirely fair across the board; but at least women do have real economic opportunity here, economic opportunity that those in the third world would sacrifice just about everything except their life for.
Regarding the World Bank, they are just another cog in the machine that is the global elite cabal. "You vill eat the bugs, you vill own nothing, you vill be happy"; just more of that garbage.
The Original Wing
A few years ago I discussed this very topic with a Japanese woman (married, mother of two), who also was currently working at a pretty impressive job - she's an intelligent and accomplished woman. I asked her why she thought there was such inequality between men and women in this country. And she responded, "Because we're not equal." And she went on to explain that men are in fact superior in a variety of ways, and that the woman's role is just different, and not to be compared to her husband's role. And all of society's talk about inequality is just missing the point completely.
I was taken aback.
Randy Johnson
The Original WingToday 09:51 pm JST
A few years ago I discussed this very topic with a Japanese woman (married, mother of two), who also was currently working at a pretty impressive job - she's an intelligent and accomplished woman. I asked her why she thought there was such inequality between men and women in this country. And she responded, "Because we're not equal." And she went on to explain that men are in fact superior in a variety of ways, and that the woman's role is just different, and not to be compared to her husband's role. And all of society's talk about inequality is just missing the point completely.
I was taken aback
Men do men things and women do women things.
It's the hard cold fact that a certain political mindset absolutely refuse to understand.
By all means if women want to do all those brutal, dirty, dangerous, hard jobs that men do, then have at it.
smithinjapan
M3M3M3: "Unless your career goal is to become an Empress, none of these points seem particularly relevant to the economic opportunities of most women."
Just playing devil's advocate by giving some specific examples. :) Obviously, no one besides Aiko would even have the possibility at present to ascend to the throne if she could, but my point that she is a woman and therefore cannot means that a woman cannot achieve what a man can, by law, in this nation. You cannot say that is not the case. ;)
kaimycahl
@nakanoguy01 True the exact same rights everyone else get except for those who fought for it.
*Aren't women to blame for the "dire" situation they find themselves in? If you don't exercise your right to vote, or you are voting for the same party, or you don't demand equal pay for equal work, then nothing will ever change. *Black people weren't just given equal rights in America, they had to fight tooth and nail for civil rights legislation to pass.
enmaai
The OLs at my company earn 150,000 yen per month before taxes; that's for M-F, 8:30am - 5:30pm.
wow you work at that company, it's 250.000 per month, under that is called slavery.
Samit Basu
Actual report available here. https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/39462/9781464819445.pdf
Samit Basu
@Sanjinosebleed
Try 150 years, not 50 years.
ReasonandWisdomNippon
Samit
Korea should not talk on women issues. Your resume on women problems and issues speak for themselves. Your 1 problem away from a gender War.
deanzaZZR
Good find. The title of the report is Women, Business and the Law 2023 so the datasets have that focus.
Kokegawa
As usual, a whole bunch of people will blame everyone else (it's the evil feminists!, it's the woke drag queens! it's the Westerners!) before ever considering that it might be their own views which are harmful and wrong.
These are the same people who inevitably whine any time anyone dares upset the established way of things, and they love to poison any legitimate grievance by tying it up with a good moral panic. Back in the day it was panic about giving women the vote, now it's panic about men having to actually respect women as co-equal human beings in the home and workplace.
It's so boring.
Kokegawa
So the hell what?
Do you also complain when a Western-based report details the conditions of poverty in Africa, or is this simply a way to mask your annoyance because the report reaches a conclusion you don't like? I suspect it's the latter.
socrateos
(1) SCIENCE magazine reports that happiness is associated with longer life. Happier people tend to live longer.
https://www.science.org/content/article/happiness-associated-longer-life#:~:text=Happy%20people%20don't%20just,to%20ask%20them%20about%20it.
(2) And it is well known that life expectancy of Japanese people, especially women, is longer than any other countries for many years now.
https://www.populationu.com/gen/life-expectancy#:~:text=Japan%20has%20the%20highest%20life,years%2C%20Israel%20with%2082.58%20years.
(3) A logical conclusion is that Japanese women's lives are happier in comparison to those in other countries.
Are we missing something important in the "WOMEN, BUSINESS AND THE LAW" report?
Samit Basu
@wolfshine
It's about ranking of legal protections that women enjoy relative to men, not the absolute legal protection level.
This is why countries like Uganda rank higher than Japan, because while the legal protection level of both men and women suck in Uganda, the gap isn't as wide as it is in Japan.
In terms of gender equality, Japan does rank at the bottom of the developed world, and comparable to many 3rd world countries. The problem is that Japanese citizens are too obedient to authority figures, do not dare to challenge when they see social wrongs.
This is in comparison to countries like Taiwan and Korea where citizens don't just watch social wrongs, they rise up and demand changes. This is how they are now fully democratic countries while Japan is not.
Strangerland
Been in Japan for 22 years, still haven’t seen the rampant misogyny here that foreigners like to bawl about constantly
It's not as cut and dry as many foreigners like to think, but anyone who thinks women in the workforce in Japan are being given an equal footing to men, haven't worked in a Japanese workforce.
I can't recall ever having a male bring me tea at a business meeting.
falseflagsteve
Stranger
Well, I’ve always been self employed since I reside in Japan, so as for that aspect I cannot make a comment.
socrateos
(1) According to scientific studies, happiness is associated with longer life. Happier people tend to live longer.
(2) The life expectancy of Japanese people, especially women, is longer than any other countries.
(3) A logical conclusion is that Japanese womens are happier in comparison to those in other countries.
So what's wrong with the picture painted by the "WOMEN, BUSINESS AND THE LAW" report?
Here are some of the fundamental flaws of the report:
First, its biggest flaw is a failure to recognize domestic labors as legitimate works. Secondly, because of that, it fails to recognize a classic division of labors: man works outside while woman works inside home. Thirdly, it fails to recognize a division of power that makes up a Japanese family: man controls income while woman controls spending.
For thousands of years in our homo-sapience history, male went out with spears to hunt wild animals while female took care of their homes. Japan, in a way, perfected this form of living.
And the report completely ignored it.
Strangerland
(3) A logical conclusion is that Japanese womens are happier in comparison to those in other countries.
You apparently don't know the difference between a conclusion and a hypothesis, because that is not logical conclusion. It's a hypothesis.
Anytime someone tries to boil a real world complex issue down to: 'it's simple, we can boil it down to this single metric', they clearly aren't speaking of the real world.
socrateos
Strangerland:
No. It is a logical conclusion.
Let sentence A = "X is happier than Y"
Let sentence B = "X lives longer than Y"
Assumption (1) "If A is true, then B is true"
Assumption: (2) "B is true"
Then: "A is true" (Logical conclusion from assumptions 1 and 2)
socrateos
I take it back. My logic is broken. Even if B is true, A is not necessarily true because there can be other reasons that makes B true.
John-San
Love Japan; If ever one is going bring up females in Japan the time is ripe now and into next decade. The fact are there. majority of Japanese women want to be stay home mums, run a small online business on the side. Which is very popular, I person know of a woman who work 25 years in local government reaching position of department head. Her family own and run a Ringo farm in Iwate. This women ditch her high paying high position to construct an add-on online business to compliment the Family farm business. She start producing pouches of apple jelly and juice. She also converted the Kura into Air B&B accommodation, Now her add-on business contribute to 30% rise of profits of the Ringo Farm.
itsonlyrocknroll
Hi garypen, yes to kick the chairs is a euphemism, a turn of phase,
When customer requirements are tight, and we all have to up the level, that's went chairs have to kicked.
It is not a aggressive as it sounds though.
wallace
With the falling size of the workforce, women need to be encouraged to take professional jobs and the building trades.
itsonlyrocknroll
I have a J family, my Father is English, Mother Japanese, a large family.
I have at present a successful business, I enjoy J life, yet I am mystified by the culture. I have never understood, or in many respects been confident to grasp J unique set of gender values that traditions within the family impress the importance on social harmony.
I am aware of my foreignness, my accent, my demeanor at work in the office.
I appreciate the skill and loyalty of the staff.
Never have my neighbours, the community, business etc ever made me feel unwelcome, quite the opposite.
Yet I stick out like a sore thumb, not visually/on sight, when my mouth opens and closes.
I feel outside, looking in. Much so at work.
John-San
Ok Lovejapan. You must be a School teacher and have never work in a Japanese company setting. Where the first rules is The Company come first, the second rules is the company come first. Japanese are program to think of the company first and family last. Japan women don't think that way. To them Family come first and that how it should be. But trying tell that to an office fill with males who have been brain wash into company come first manta. and change that atitude is impossible. The law is there for women to advance along as they are Company first women. For you to state women are oppress is a ridicious statement because the same go for the males also.
Redtail Swift
Japanese women have life pretty easy here. I wouldn't worry about those numbers. Statistics and real-life are completely different.
Just take a walk. Look who's driving those BMWs, Mercedes Benz. Go out around lunchtime and see the restaurants and cafes replete with female customers. Louis-Vuitton bags, Italian high heels, anything they want.
Japanese women are winning.
Zizi
Japanese women are one of the rare truly great things about Japan. .
The men, not so much. Hopefully the younger generation improves.
falseflagsteve
LoveJapan
What do you really think most people want, up at 7am to work back at 7 or 8pm? Let’s have both in. Marriage or relationship work like that and the kids in daycare. It’s bad enough many kids hardly knowing their fathers, mothers too?
There’s plenty of scaffolding, refuse collecting and building jobs around where I live and they pay better than many office jobs. Might see the arre instance of a women doing one of these jobs, wonder why?
John-San
I went away and had a good think about this equality for women.
Those who have female children today and think equality for women is a good thing, are living in a dreamland. Women equality has allowed female to choose a career over family. Women over the last 30 years who have fought for equality for women in pay, in position, in politic, in power, actual think this is a good thing for females and for female of the future. All This as lead to the depopulation of the west. This means less man to choose from for women. This will place man in a better position, knowing of the history of the last 50 year of women action, this will allow him to bargain with women in such elements like marriage, she as to be rich, as to ,fit and healthy and stay that way. Willing to sign over her wealth. sign over the care for the children if she decide to leave and who the children stay with. All these element are demanded by women of today equality status but. women forgot one thing when chasing equality. That women unlike man have a use by date 35 years, this will lead to their own demise. This will be the future for females that you can not change but female of today can change the future of female in 50 years time by teaching there female children don't chase equality chase a early marriage to man you can nail down, earlier the better, dont worry about his status his looks or wealth or you will end up a bargaining a chip.
John-San
Women who achieve independence end will only choosing man they deem in the top 10% Their target group is Men who are rich, good heath ,good looks and under 40 very, small select group These women end up " Hitting the wall" then complaining that no men want to date them and have a relationship. I wonder why? It because man don't want a relationship with a women who has independence and have reached the age of 35 and can not bear children. A rich fit man under 40 don't want to date or a relationship with 35 + women. Their target group is 18 to early 20,s. This has led to depopulation in the west and in the future these independent women while have a smaller target group to choose from. Japanese women have seen the the result and have reacted to this modern change in western society and choose not to go down the road of the independent modern women. This the reason behind the world bank ranking of 104. Being a male I don't see that as a minus for Japan but a bonus.
Strangerland
Yes, women are one dimensional and all think the same way right? And they never prioritize someone who makes them happy over wealth and looks, right?
...right?
Khuniri
Men and women are profoundly the same in their humanity and profoundly different in so many specifics, whatever contemporary ideologies may claim. Most of the commentators here seem to presuppose that Japan should become an American clone—or forever live in shame. No! Japanese women are neither weak nor stupid. If the silly people who “rank” countries in their Alice-in-Wonderland way place Japan next time at #105, hurray!
Strangerland
No, you took a single metric - Japanese people live longer - and made a conclusion - therefore they are happy. But the evidence - that Japanese people live longer - is not enough to come to any logical conclusion. This is why you have a hypothesis, not a conclusion. You think maybe Japanese people are happier, based on their longer lives, but without any investigation into that, you cannot logically conclude it, you can only hypothesize, or make an assumption based on the evidence, but there is no logical conclusion there.
Which is why I started with:
Kokegawa
@socrateos
Do you not understand that just because living longer might lead to more happiness, other factors can lead to a decrease in happiness - and that means Japanese women could still be unhappier overall?
You're taking a single factor in isolation, and pretending it's the only determinant of the level of happiness... which is sloppy reasoning.
Kokegawa
This is wrong on so many levels.
First of all, the idea of the housewife who specializes in family-oriented domestic labor is a recent development in human history. For the vast majority of our time on this planet, we've lived as hunter-gatherers or by subsistence agriculture, which necessitated that both genders work their butts off so as to not starve to death.
The thing is, because modern society is not based on subsistence agriculture (where you grow most of what you need by yourself), paid labor is necessary to have any degree of autonomy. Now women are wanting part of that cake, and you'd deny to them out of some misguided attempt at protecting "tradition". The thing is, the game has changed.
The reason "society is collapsing" is because the gender revolution has stalled, and dumb, rigid structures persist in making life suck for working families. The birth rates in Japan and other such patriarchal societies are surpassed by those societies with much greater gender equality in such things as housework and parental leave. Because, funnily enough, when women are not treated like garbage, they'll actually feel like raising a family.
Kokegawa
Listen, pal, just because women are the ones who go around pregnant for 9 months, that doesn't mean you can't change a diaper or go the the playground and watch over the kids having some fun.
Pacificpilot
Japan is facing a declining population while having an increase in elderly care. To reverse that trend Japan must achieve gender parity in wages and remove the glass ceiling which prevents women from upward mobility in their jobs. Unfortunately, Japan is run by old men with ancient views and they do not see the direct relationship between gender equality and increasing the likelihood of population growth in Japan