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Gov't ordered to pay damages over transgender toilet ban

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By Jung Yeon-Je

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This was on last nights news, and I am glad that she won! When I first came here it was relatively common to see men and women using the same bathrooms in public areas, and it really shouldnt be an issue!

-7 ( +18 / -25 )

Why is this an issue if I can use a public urinal while the cleaning lady is working on the one next to me?

18 ( +23 / -5 )

Does it also require surgery to remove the offending organ?

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Does it also require surgery to remove the offending organ?

The nuance to which I was referring.

Honest question:

How exactly does someone who is born a biological male know what it feels like to be a woman? I’ve never been addicted to crack, so there is no way I can know what it feels like to be a crackhead.

5 ( +19 / -14 )

Transitioning is a long and very arduous process, which includes a psychological diagnosis of gender dysphoria, a long and difficult transition period, ending in officially changing their family registry. This isn't something done on a whim.

So you agree that a person who is still legally considered a man should not be allowed into a woman’s private space despite his “identity” as a woman.

0 ( +11 / -11 )

So you agree that a person who is still legally considered a man should not be allowed into a woman’s private space despite his “identity” as a woman.

A legitimate question.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

It seems like there’s something really wrong with the Japanese judiciary system these days. But not to worry. The government will probably appeal the district court’s decision and it will be overturned at an appeal’s court.

-1 ( +9 / -10 )

But, there was a case of a man who dressed as a woman so he could get his kicks using the woman’s toilet. This is what makes the whole transgender thing a dangerous mix.

7 ( +22 / -15 )

Goid thing in japan ita probably safe to let transgenders go to female bathrooms. In countries like the Philippines, its very dangerous and a woman can get raped by a man pretending to be a transgender. There was a proposal to allow this last year but the filipinos opposed it for safety reasons.

2 ( +11 / -9 )

The plaintiff, in her 50s, joined the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry as a man and now lives as a woman.

Well, when did he replace his DNA and has now XX? This should be decided on an individual basis and not with a court decision.

It is sad to see that this transgender madness is now appearing in Japan.

There have always been transvestites. But the idea that they are actually biologlical females just because they FEEL female is recent, and is a Western thing. I.e. Thailand has a long history of its ladyboys. They are well acknowledge and accepted in society, but no Thai would claim that they are actually women. They have show up for armee conscriptment (of course) and if they compete in Thai boxing matches, they compete in the male division (again, of course).

Since when does FEELING trump reality?

6 ( +20 / -14 )

sensei:

Why is this an issue if I can use a public urinal while the cleaning lady is working on the one next to me?

She is working there. And have you ever noticed that genders are not the same? When is the last time you saw a male cleaner go in the womens section?

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

When is the last time you saw a male cleaner go in the womens section?

When was the last time you saw a male cleaner?

10 ( +18 / -8 )

Thailand has a long history of its ladyboys. They are well acknowledge and accepted in society, but no Thai would claim that they are actually women.

They're actually called the third gender in Thailand, and are allowed to use the ladies restrooms.

11 ( +15 / -4 )

Glad to hear that this person won their case. It's not about using the bathroom, I think it's more about the harassment this person endured.

The judge also said that a comment by the official's boss suggesting she should revert to a male gender identity "exceeds the limit allowed by the law."

The above comment is the real reason they lost the case. Management went too far.

When it comes to bathroom usage, transgender individuals are fighting an uphill battle.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

Funny how people are suddenly so concerned about girls' and women's safety in toilets and bathrooms that they insist on proper security, after decades of just muttering and innuendos when hearing of peeping toms, secret camera installation, and molestation by cis-men. Where was the outrage before this - when it was men who were definitely committing crimes, rather than transgender women who have not?

0 ( +13 / -13 )

How exactly does someone who is born a biological male know what it feels like to be a woman?

And vice versa. This is actually a good question. I postulate it is because, for some, "male" and "female" are abstract concepts.

Unfortunately, things tend to break down when abstract concepts meet concrete reality.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Look, if they are going to do this, let's just do away with male and female toilets altogether. Just one toilet for all genders.

16 ( +19 / -3 )

But, there was a case of a man who dressed as a woman so he could get his kicks using the woman’s toilet. This is what makes the whole transgender thing a dangerous mix.

There will always be an exception to the rule that people will point to as justification for being against this!

Just like the folks who say "Japan is always safe!"

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Japan already has a SERIOUS problem with stalkers, and it often ends with the woman being killed or raped. Allowing men into women's toilets because they "feel" like it is dangerous. It removes one of the few safe spaces women have to get away from men.

I see people trying to defend transgender people by saying that there have been more rapes by non-transgender people. Have they considered that's because we haven't been allowing transgender people to enter the biologically incorrect bathroom? Do we have to wait for the rapes to skyrocket, or can we be logical and prevent them?

Bathrooms are designed for your sex, not your gender. You can wear what you like and believe you're any gender, but that is irrelevant to which bathroom you need to use.

Any transgender woman who values using a certain toilet over the safety of women, has the exact mindset of the people we're afraid of having in our toilets.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

"When was the last time you saw a male cleaner?"

We have male cleaners in our building. I just met the one who handles our floor this morning.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

There are many letters to the alphabet we get that, there are bascially male and female devices and the occasional person born with both devices or neither or some of each, how you feel or what you think is not what you are. There are also some people confused about nature and various things who need some counseling, then those who want the rest of the world to normalize how a minority feel or think or want to act.

If you do not have dangley things to urinate with then you are most likey female if you have dangley bits to urinate then most likely male so therefore use the corresponding bathroom until you have had the corresponding operation.

If you do not like or agree with this than you must also understand there are those who do not like or agree with how you expect the rest of the world to embarce your idea of what you perceive yourself to be.

If you are offended that is your choice, please feel free to be that, but please also feel free to let others have a view and opinion and express that.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@Maria

Where was the outrage before this

People did actually speak out against it, but were not "outraged" because everybody knew it was wrong. Nobody was actually publicly supporting the perverts' rights to invade women's bathrooms.

Part of the "outrage" comes from the outrageous expectations by some that their claims go unquestioned, and that the very questioning of said claims is in itself a violation of their human rights. Used to be that transgender people believed they were the opposite sex. Now we're told that* everyone must *believe... or else.

Lol. Tell me that's not going to cause a few people to raise their eyebrows.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

I wonder how his female colleagues feel about this.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

This male/female/Transgender and using of ablution facilities or public spaces is really a hypocrite of a scenario in Japan. Just as one person pointed out already, the cleaning ladies standing directly behind me in the public toilets waiting to clean or the ladies working at onsens who frequently enter the man's bathing space to change soap/ shampoo/ checking water temperature. Some ladies in the onsens do have lengthy conversations with customers who are stark naked in front of them, and life still continues, and no one really cares about it. Does it make it right/ wrong/ politically acceptable?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Burning BushToday 07:31 am JST

Transitioning is a long and very arduous process, which includes a psychological diagnosis of gender dysphoria, a long and difficult transition period, ending in officially changing their family registry. This isn't something done on a whim.

So you agree that a person who is still legally considered a man should not be allowed into a woman’s private space despite his “identity” as a woman

This is a question separate from from the comment I made, since this case pertains to someone who has fully transitioned.

But since you have asked my personal view on people who have not legally changed their gender identity, I will say that I am perfectly fine with any transgender person who wants to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

I will say that I am perfectly fine with any transgender person who wants to use the bathroom that matches their gender identity.

Quite so, and I would also say that unless people have been made aware ahead of time, the odds of anyone knowing that a "man" who identifies themselves as a "woman" is actually such, particularly when using a women's bathroom.

It's not like they are using a wide open room with a slit trench in the floor, where everyone around them can "check them out"

Unless of course they jump into the same stall!

It's a non-issue!

I'll bet the folks who are complaining about this the loudest, mainly men it seems, probably stare at the guy next to them while they are urinating to check out if they are better endowed than themselves.

THOSE dudes are truly "queer"!

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The government reportedly argued that it limited the official's use of the women's toilet because it "could not set aside concerns she could harm female staff."

Not pertinent, women do hurt/harm other women, too. I don't think 'genuine' transsexuals pose a significant threat to other women in bathrooms; predatory men posing as transgender W do but that's a completely different issue altogether.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

[...] women's toilets[...] one of the few safe spaces women have to get away from men.

We are talking about toilets there not some kind of bunker. If you are pursued by some men and you feel unsafe aim for a police box or a place with lot of people not some women toilet.

there have been more rapes by non-transgender people. Have they considered that's because we haven't been allowing transgender people to enter the biologically incorrect bathroom

Are you by any chance implying that if there is so many rape by non transgender people it is because they are allowed to enter the biologically incorrect bathroom ?

Since when are people free to enter the biologically incorrect bathroom without being frowned upon at best (except for cleaning staff, and for the people asking I saw cleaning men getting out of women bathroom and/or the board saying there is a man in the bathroom several times, but not a lot either) ?

Are women toilet including some special feature making it the best place to rape in the world ? If they are so not safe, you should just allow all men in them, this way rapist will be too afraid to face a big dude to attempt anything.

Any transgender woman who values using a certain toilet over the safety of women, has the exact mindset of the people we're afraid of having in our toilets.

How does having transgender women using women toilet make women not safe ? You will prefer to have transgender men using women toilet ? If men toilet are so safe for transgender women how about you use them saying you are transgender and let the transgender women in the women toilet where they feel safer. The other women will be free to make their choice according to want they prefer : being around women thought some were perhaps in the past seen as men, thought some could perhaps be lusting about them, thought some would not hesitate to help them if needed ... or being around men thought some were perhaps in the past seen as women, thought some could perhaps be lusting about them, thought some would not hesitate to help them if needed, ...

And who is "we" ? Transgender-phobics ?

I guess the best solution is to just have one toilet for all and prosecute people acting badly. They can start by updating the law about rape.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Hate to see this happen to Japan but this judicial ruling just opened Pandora's box. A darn shame.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

I'm really not sure I see the problem here. Personally I have no problem with a transgender man using the same toilet as me. I don't care what it says on his birth certificate, I would feel no more or less apprehensive or threatened than any man who was born with male genitals.

As to the idea of violence and sexual assault occurring, I'm still not sure of the problem. Violence and sexual assault already occurs in toilets, whether it's male/male, female/male or any variation thereof. A predatory homosexual of either gender could assault someone of the same gender in a toilet- are people proposing that homosexuals should be barred from public toilets? I've been physically assaulted by other men in toilets; clearly you'd have a problem finding someone to ban there, unless it's the whole concept of public toilets. After all, they're private, unsupervised places where it's easy to commit crime!

Ultimately laws should not be rejected simply on the basis that some people may break them or use them to break other laws. It is wrong to stigmatize the law-abiding majority of transitioned individuals and force them to behave in a fashion they may find distressing and uncomfortable simply because some of them may behave in a criminal manner. It is note a rule applied to other groups and thus should not be applied to minorities.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I do know what a transgender is! Geez! Nazi much?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The judges ruling is Ridiculous. What about the Rights & Safety of real women who are using the bathroom when the transgender enters the bathroom ??? Refusing her access to the ladies bathroom makes sense, She is still a He.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

It's interesting to note that no one is expressing any concern (or even mentioning) at the possibility that transitioned women may be verbally or physically abused or sexually assaulted when they are forced to use the men's restroom. Is it more acceptable that an "abnormal" minority suffer abuse? Judging from the responses, the concept of their safety has not even occurred to most people.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

There is only one logical solution to this dilemma. Tear down the "male/female" signs on ALL bathrooms and let anyone use any toilet they like. Many convenience stores already do this- they have unisex booths and a common sink area. It's the 21st century people- we share toilets at home, why can't we share them in the outside world?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

There's a lot of ignorance in this article. You can LEGALLY change your sex in Japan. I'm assuming (although the article doesn't seem to say so explicitly) that the person in question has done so. If that person is legally considered a woman, it makes sense that they have to be treated the same as any other woman and this was legally a case of discrimination.

Furthermore, to legally change one's gender in Japan, one has to undergo surgical sterilization. It's a court-affirmed requirement. Anyone like the person in the article will have done so before being granted a change of gender. It's quite unlikely that someone is going to go through that just to be able to peek in the bathrooms.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

In this case, I wonder what the female employees at the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry thought of this transgender woman using their bathroom?

The government cited "concerns." Whose concerns? Did someone/s complain? Were the complainants female? If so, were their rights to privacy considered?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Interesting, we have people here that ignore facts. 3 people have brought up the point that male cleaning staff are NEVER seen cleaning women’s toilets during store operations hours. Women will NEVER feel comfortable with a man in the ladies room. FACT!

Yet for some reason, you think we are okay with women in the men’s room while we are physically exposed standing up. All the hypocrisy.

Now you are upset, that a transgender now has the right to use the ladies room. Just because “he” feels different. He feels like a woman. Ladies deal with that. Not my problem. When that female cleaning staff stops coming into the men’s room, you’ll have 1 more person supporting your cause.

Personally, I don’t think transgenders are dangerous people at all. The chances of any of us ever coming into contact with a transgender are almost slim to none. I’ll win the lottery before a transgender ( F to M ) stands next to me in the men’s room.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Gotta agree with Doel Harry , rights of others need to be taken into account too, girl in tokyo (probably trans ) how is the right s of others bigotry or slurs ?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The judges ruling is Ridiculous. What about the Rights & Safety of real women who are using the bathroom when the transgender enters the bathroom ??? Refusing her access to the ladies bathroom makes sense, She is still a He.

And if she were standing right next to you odds are you would have no idea in the world that she started life as a he!

Not to mention that there is absolutely no way you would know about anyone else, unless they told you or showed you!

What scares you so much that a human being can't use the same damn bathroom as you do?

Everybody's got to poop!

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Man, this is a tough one. In one hand, we can't leave our LGBT comrades to discrimination but at the same time we also must be concerned of the welfare and safety of our heterosexual demographic. Its essentially safety vs discrimination but where do we draw the line? I really want to know how Japan will handle this issue. From what I've heard from trans people in my country, they use the separate restroom reserved for persons with disability if nobody is using it since it allows both sexes to use it.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Surprised this would be an issue, Japanese women walk around the mens bathing areas at Onsens, Japanese women were in the mens toilets cleaning them while men were using them, one of the suburban train stations in Fukuoka had unisex toilets - so why whats the catch with this.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Man, this is a tough one. In one hand, we can't leave our LGBT comrades to discrimination but at the same time we also must be concerned of the welfare and safety of our heterosexual demographic. Its essentially safety vs discrimination but where do we draw the line?

What is really scary is that people use the argument that "safety" is an issue. This is based upon what facts?

None really, it's based upon fear and phobia only, as the assumption here is that somehow allowing a transgendered male or female to use the bathroom that they associate with will be a physical threat to the opposite sex, in particular "men" who use a "women's" bathroom.

People are assuming that transgendered people are a physical threat......how much more ludicrous can the discussion get?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@Toshihiro

Man, this is a tough one. In one hand, we can't leave our LGBT comrades to discrimination but at the same time we also must be concerned of the welfare and safety of our heterosexual demographic. Its essentially safety vs discrimination but where do we draw the line?

Well said that the rights of everyone concerned should be considered in this matter.

In my opinion, the rights of the vast majority ought to prevail.

From what I've heard from trans people in my country, they use the separate restroom reserved for persons with disability if nobody is using it since it allows both sexes to use it.

Sounds like a good solution.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Quite so, and I would also say that unless people have been made aware ahead of time, the odds of anyone knowing that a "man" who identifies themselves as a "woman" is actually such, particularly when using a women's bathroom.

To add to what @Yubaru said: In Japan, you are not allowed to legally identify as a gender other than what you are born as until you have had gender reassignment surgery. So with that being known, I can't see why the company would make things so difficult for the plaintiff. The boss needs to get over his insecurities.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The entitlement of the few is being prioritized over the safety of the Majority. Hahaha.

Let the people vote on it. The filipinos voted against it. Citing safety concerns for women and children who can easily be targets for males who "feel" female.

Really dumb pointing out women cleaners in the male bathroom. Women can't physically overpower men to rape them.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

MSR JapanToday 03:13 pm JST

Gotta agree with Doel Harry , rights of others need to be taken into account too, girl in tokyo (probably trans ) how is the right s of others bigotry or slurs ?

You think that just because someone stands up for trans rights, that must mean they are trans? By the same logic, do you also think that if someone stands up for children's rights they must be a child? Or if they stand for same-sex marriage rights they must be a same-sex couple?

how is the right s of others bigotry or slurs ?

By definition, a slur is a derogatory or insulting term applied to particular group of people. In this case, using the male pronoun "he" as a way to demean a transwoman is a slur. Asking someone not to use slurs is not a violation of their rights.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

@Jen Garci

Let the people vote on it.

I agree. Japan is a democracy.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Jen GarciToday 04:03 pm JST

The entitlement of the few is being prioritized over the safety of the Majority. Hahaha.

The phrase is "the tyranny of the majority". It is invoked in scenarios where a majority make decisions that place their interest above those of an individual or minority group, resulting in the oppression of that group.

Let the people vote on it. The filipinos voted against it. Citing safety concerns for women and children who can easily be targets for males who "feel" female.

Again, transwomen don't "feel female". They are female. They are not a danger to anyone; they are normal people who just happen to have gender dysphoria. Which by the way, is a condition recognized by every major psychological association. You might try having some empathy.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

It is so easy to declare yourself as feeling woman today.

I do wonder why there aren't that many women who feel like men who are desperate to go to the mens bathroom. Hahaha

This is why male trans are also outcasts from the lgbt community. They feel super entitled and the other faction of the lgbt don't like them.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Easy solution we all follow at home. One bathroom for all. You want to use it you line up and wait.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I'm willing to bet that most women would feel vulnerable in a presence of a man, whether or not he poses a threat or not, in a small enclosed space with only one exit where they're supposed to feel safe enough to expose themselves in private to do their business. Whereas men do not feel that vulnerability. Take away that barrier of only letting biological women into the women's restroom based on feelings opens the doors, yes, to genuine trans people but also sexual predators which all they need is a wig and makeup to gain access without question if laws do change. Women may never feel the safety they feel now in restrooms again. Let's get rid of women-only train carriages, women-only gyms, women-only change rooms, etc, while you're getting rid of women-only restrooms as well if you think there are absolutely no repercussions

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Female is for female toilet not to any special gender.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Why don't we remove the 'Male and Female' signs from the toilet, and replace them with 'Penis and Vagina' or an icon or symbol at least. That way it doesn't matter what you were born with. What you have right now between your legs will determine what toilet to use? But, get busted for using the wrong toilet and expect to be suitably punished (by the police / courts)...

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The solution is the same as at your home. Everyone uses one crapper privately.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Are people seriously claiming transgenders go through gender reassignment in order to peek into the women restroom? How ignorant does one have to be to make such a claim.

Did anybody think transgender women aren’t for the most part even attracted to women?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

If the person identifies as something other than their biological self, it does not change what sex they really are.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

I bet no one thought of asking the women who work there if they were OK with it.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

If the person identifies as something other than their biological self, it does not change what sex they really are.

The closest they could come would be post-op.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@girl_in_tokyo

*transwomen don't "feel female". They arefemale...*

They have xy chromosomes and male physical traits. Ergo, male.

who just happen to have gender dysphoria. Which by the way, is a condition recognized by every major psychological association

They have a mental quirk by which they think they are the opposite sex.

In other words, transwomen are men who think they are women.

Saying they are female because they think it doesn’t change the reality that most of the world abides by.

And my writing this does not mean I hate or fear trans people, it just means I don’t believe a mental condition constitutes a physical reality.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Just change it to two rooms.

Universal

Women only

This is already applied to trains and it works fine. The same system can be applied to changing rooms and onsens and the like.

Men generally don't mind other genders seeing them naked, but women do, the above system would accommodate everybody.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

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