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Japan health experts urge gov't to speed up review of COVID measures

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I had it recently but didn’t register. I think their are many more just like me. My symptoms were similar to seasonal heat attack.

10 ( +22 / -12 )

Japan doesn’t really want to know how to speed things up!

There’s too much money changing hands with certain agencies on the Covid bandwagon in Japan.

11 ( +23 / -12 )

As usual the goverment takes its time in making reviews, slowly reacting to a changing situation. Every measure has its costs and benefits, vaccination and public cooperation has reduced the benefits of some of the measures but the costs remain the same so a proper evidence-based evaluation of the risks should be done to keep those measures that are still cost effective and change those that are no longer justified.

At this point the proposal seem appropriate, lets just hope the government act before the situation changes again and the new measures end up being obsolete before they are put in order.

4 ( +21 / -17 )

We all know how quick the government is going to be to make any changes.

@Rodney

How did you know you had it? Genuinely curious.

I might have got it earlier this year. I tested negative but it took me ages to get tested after spending extensive amounts of time with someone infected without being regarded a close contact. A couple of months later, I had almost no side effects after my third jab (my second was dreadful), which makes me think I may have had if at some point.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

Two years too late

9 ( +18 / -9 )

They should also quickly open up their border to all individual without the 72 hours PCR testing and visa application. Other countries already treated covid as normal flu , Japan as an advance country is still very far behind.

2 ( +16 / -14 )

including changing ways to collect infection numbers and allowing general medical institutions to treat patients.

Translation:

Adopt the "it's just the flu" model which many people have been advocating for over 2 years.

-2 ( +18 / -20 )

How did you know you had it? Genuinely curious.

because my partner tested positive, we both had the same symptoms, we sleep in the same bed, kiss, eat together don’t wear paper Face nappies. We decided it’s best to get it together and get it over with. It only took me two days to catch it and I recovered in 3-4 days, she took a week. Her job gave her 10 days off work, so we had a 3 day holiday at the end.

as I posted before, to get a test, I would have to wait outside the hospital for 4 hours in 32 degrees heat, when my body temperature was 37.7 about. No point, they would of just said go home and rest.

stay safe. Vegetables, fruit and lots of water, rest. Netflix. I had a sore throat for two days, I found mouthwash was useful.

-2 ( +14 / -16 )

I had it recently but didn’t register.

Same for me.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

@Rodney

I think a lot of people are coming to the same conclusion that the infection is an inevitability.

And once infected and recovered the ‘fear’ of the unknown quickly passes.

1 ( +12 / -11 )

Sore throat and slight fever. Over in a few days. Move on. Japan is stuck in 2021.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

Japan needs to close the border now!

-23 ( +3 / -26 )

Adopt the "it's just the flu" model which many people have been advocating for over 2 years.

The main reason why the risk is now reduced to levels comparable with the flu is because the irrational antiscientific minimizing of the risks of covid has been mostly ignored in Japan, countless unnecessary deaths being prevented and a very high level of protection of the population thanks to vaccines.

It is like a doctor telling a patient that he can finally end up his chemotherapy because the cancer is in remission just to have somebody else saying "see? you never needed it from the beginning"

-6 ( +15 / -21 )

Japan needs to close the border now!"

Yep... innocent foreign tourists need to be protected since the virus is rampant in Japan. So much for the success of the Japanese model in beating corona ey?

9 ( +15 / -6 )

"It is not appropriate under the current circumstances to wait until the resurgence has subsided."

Exactly! But, as Japanese politicians (and others) are quite famous for waiting until it is too late to do something, or until they no longer need to, I doubt it's about to change. They've been doing the "wait-and-pray" approach since the outbreak began -- except in terms of barring foreign travelers from coming... THAT they acted on very quickly!

But hey, Kishida is obviously a medical expert, unlike Shigeru, so why take the latter's word for anything?

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

in other words shipment of 4ths shot are coming and they need be used so need make people afraid and ready for new shot...as simple as is...

all of this covid thing is one big business makes very rich a few,poor a many and afraid a too many.same time there is control over the masses via media and gov decisions.

all of us have to understand that no vaccine can stop covid and no face masks can do as well.its like lottery once you get it just stay at home and will get well in day to some in a week.

covid will mutate and will not go away in one month or so.so just accept that fact.

all of you enjoy nice summer days,eat well,drink well and dont blindly believe all daily "news" massages...

-8 ( +8 / -16 )

It is just a Flu. Don't people get the Flu anymore ?

1 ( +15 / -14 )

Spot on. I will blindly believe Mr. Eastman instead of daily "news."

-11 ( +3 / -14 )

Thankfully Japan listened to its own globally recognized medical experts and took swift and effective measures when the pandemic first started by wearing masks.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/03/coronavirus-pandemic-japan-shows-masks-help-slow-spread-covid-19/

By ignoring the WHO's "advice" that masks were not necessary, Japan was able to limit damage by a more powerful strain.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html

The government should listen to Dr. Omi again.

Omi said at a press conference, "It is not appropriate under the current circumstances to wait until the resurgence has subsided."

-15 ( +5 / -20 )

Rodney Today 08:44 am JST

We decided it’s best to get it together and get it over with.

Now that we objectively know that an Omicron (especially the currently prevalent BA.5) infection does not lead to immunity even against itself, that people can and have been re-infected, some already for the 3rd time ... What exactly is the value of getting it on purpose?

I have said before that getting the infection to prevent the very same infection does not make sense. And given that it doesn't even prevent infection, that an infection does not "get it over with" ...

Please take this as nonconfrontional as possible (as far as that's possible in a forum on the internet). I'm genuinely, honestly trying to understand your train of thought.

3 ( +12 / -9 )

Thankfully Japan listened to its own globally recognized medical experts and took swift and effective measures when the pandemic first started by wearing masks.

Yes, 3 months after the beginning of the pandemic, which is the time where the evidence of benefit outside of hospitals and with symptomatic patients began to appear, Japan would not be any different than any other country at the time. Your own source clearly points out this is when the evidence began to appear. Every medical and scientific authority shared the same recommendations, because those are based on the available evidence, WHO would not be any different than the CDC, EMA, ECDC, etc.

Omi said at a press conference, "It is not appropriate under the current circumstances to wait until the resurgence has subsided."

So you agree that the government should reevaluate the measures and relax them as the experts are suggesting without waiting? that is the opposite of what you have argued for in the past.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Yes, 3 months after the beginning of the pandemic, which is the time where the evidence of benefit outside of hospitals and with symptomatic patients began to appear, Japan would not be any different than any other country at the time. Your own source clearly points out this is when the evidence began to appear. Every medical and scientific authority shared the same recommendations, because those are based on the available evidence, WHO would not be any different than the CDC, EMA, ECDC, etc.

Incorrect.

It was about 3 weeks, January 2020, when Japan started advocating mask use as anyone in Japan at that time would know, as opposed to the WHO's announcement March 31, 2021 that still advised against masks. So, relying purely on the western "experts" was following the wrong advice.

And obviously not every medical and scientific authority shared the WHO clearly wrong advice. Anyone in Japan, China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Singapore, Hong Kong, Korea knew the drill.

Korea for example. in February 2020 was in on the mask wearing:

Warning government signs are everywhere. They say: "Three ways to prevent further infection: wear a mask at all times; 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-51582186

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

It is just a Flu. Don't people get the Flu anymore ?

stop spreading BS misinformation, covid is not the flu, covid can and does have long term health effects and can damage your lungs, covid is far more contagious and fatal than the flu. ive had the flu a few times never had any long term effects. unless you have medical evidence to back your claims you should really just stfu

2 ( +14 / -12 )

They should include in the review the “Sudden Death Syndrome” among adults from 18 to 49 years old from 2021. What is it in 2021 that based on US military doctors data and from the US life insurance companies’ data that can be directly correlated with the sudden deaths? Not only sudden deaths but also a 400% increase in cases of blood clots, Bell’s palsy, cancer, and shrinking of the brain. This should be carefully considered by those reviewing the CoVid19 protocols.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Please take this as nonconfrontional as possible (as far as that's possible in a forum on the internet). I'm genuinely, honestly trying to understand your train of thought.

its very difficult to get non confrontational , when people will just submit misinformation and or lies because it fits their narrative. so sure your ideals are real show the scientific evidence to back your claims. This pandemic isnt going anywhere Japan will remain shut to the rest of the world until people take this seriously. if you or your family get seriously infected, good luck finding a hospital bed, people are dying at home as we speak in critical condition but cant get admitted to ICU

0 ( +9 / -9 )

Japan doesn’t really want to know how to speed things up!

There’s too much money changing hands with certain agencies on the Covid bandwagon in Japan.

Exactly! By the summer of 2020, they could have followed measures that were effective in other countries, where people were handed packages containing a combination of certain extremely cheap products, which are very effective when taken early. Unfortunately, these are not profitable for certain people so they were ignored and/or forbidden...

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

@vic

It is just a Flu. Don't people get the Flu anymore ?

I have just got out of my 10days I have trouble breathing and I have a constant cough that I just can't seem to shake. I have had the flu and I assure you this was not the flu more like having 2 or 3 flu's at the same time and mine apparently was mild.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

What exactly is the value of getting it on purpose?

herd immunity, coordinated healthcare preemptive action and waiting until there are long term peer-reviewed clinical trials that are effective maybe? Investment in healthcare for elderly and vulnerable?

as vaccines don’t work and by nature, viruses mutate, what is your magic solution? Put people infected in leper colonies?

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Where my bout of Covid was basically instantly forgettable…

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Incorrect.

To say this is incorrect you need a reference where scientific evidence was evident at that time, you have repeatedly said this was the case, but not provided such reference ever, not even once.

That means it is not incorrect, the evidence at the time was only about benefits from mask use on hospitals when dealing with symptomatic patients.

So can you provide the scientifi evidence requirede for all the medical authorities to justify the recommendation? or will you again be unable to do it?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

The current rate of infections is higher than the that at the start of the pandemic when the world went crazy with lockdowns and travel restrictions. Yet, you have the PM stating there is no need to reintroduce restrictions. Meanwhile, hospitals are bursting with patients and up to a third of the staff are isolating due to having covid. Carry on!

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Exactly! By the summer of 2020, they could have followed measures that were effective in other countries, where people were handed packages containing a combination of certain extremely cheap products,

There is no evidence of ivermectin nor HCQ being effective against covid anywhere in the world, this means there is no problem with not distributing things that gave no benefit at all while only exposing the patients to extra problems because of their well known toxic properties.

And no, studies have been done when people took both even from before they were exposed and it made no difference at all.

herd immunity, coordinated healthcare preemptive action and waiting until there are long term peer-reviewed clinical trials that are effective maybe? 

All these are reasons to get the vaccine, not the infection.

as vaccines don’t work and by nature, viruses mutate, what is your magic solution? 

Vaccines work, which is why they are the best option when compared with the infection, they reduce the risks and give people better chances against the infection, viruses mutating also make the immunity from the infection less effective, so you would get the risks of reinfection while getting also the risks from the previous infection as well, obviously the worse option.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Unfortunately, these are not profitable for certain people so they were ignored and/or forbidden...

unfortunately ingesting disinfectant ivermectin and UV products dont do anything to combact covid

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

2+ years into the pandemic and you'd think they would have sussed out a system or procedure that would run like a well oiled machine by now. However, the way they're going about things is exactly the same as when the pandemic first started. They really never learn, do they? 5 years from now, the world will have moved on from Covid while Japan will still be scratching its head wondering how to do so.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Now that we objectively know that an Omicron (especially the currently prevalent BA.5) infection does not lead to immunity even against itself, that people can and have been re-infected, some already for the 3rd time ... What exactly is the value of getting it on purpose?

The data indicates otherwise:

"The researchers found that infection with a pre-Omicron variant prevented reinfection with BA.4 or BA.5 with an effectiveness of 28.3%, and prevented symptomatic reinfection with either subvariant with an effectiveness of 15.1%. Prior infection with Omicron granted stronger protection: it was 79.7% effective at preventing BA.4 and BA.5 reinfection and 76.1% effective at preventing symptomatic reinfection."

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-01950-2

Infection provides protection against reinfection, vaccines do not. Vaccines are only effective at preventing symptoms, but only for a couple of months, while a prior infection provides protection for at least a year.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

I’ve got it at the moment even though I recently got my 4th Pfizer dose… our kids tested positive and my wife and I developed symptoms a couple of days later. It’s everywhere and there is no point self isolating anymore. Not at this stage.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Raw Beer Today 01:02 pm JST

Vaccines are only effective at preventing symptoms, but only for a couple of months, while a prior infection provides protection for at least a year.

Of course conveniently leaving out that a vaccination usually has none of the side effects of a full, uncontrolled infection of a virus-naïve person. And yes, yes, I know, antivaxers will now jump on the occasion to claim the vaccination is at least as harmful, causes turbocancer, vaccine-AIDS, thermonuclear war, and loss of pubic hair. But that is actually not the question I asked:

How can it be reasonable

to get infected on purpose

to prevent an infection?

Is it really, really so hard to see the flaw in that logic?

4 ( +8 / -4 )

It is like a doctor telling a patient that he can finally end up his chemotherapy because the cancer is in remission just to have somebody else saying "see? you never needed it from the beginning"

LOL.. except it's not at all like that...

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

There is no evidence of ivermectin nor HCQ being effective against covid anywhere in the world

Certainly not from the doctors that had their medical licences suspended and their records seized by authorities for doing something that wasn't sanctioned by the big pharma/WHO/CDC et al narrative. The medical community is clearly compromised...

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

LOL.. except it's not at all like that

Measures have allowed the situation to be relatively stable and the risk to be importantly reduced, so saying the measures were not necessary from the beginning make as much sense, which is none.

The data indicates otherwise:

No, it does not. 28 or 15% obviously mean most people are still at risk of a reinfection, and to get these low levels of protection they had to run the full risks of the infection in the first place, therefore the only logical conclusion is that vaccines are the much better option, because vaccinating/boosting do not requires people to assume as much risk as in the infection, and still provides protection against covid.

Infection provides protection against reinfection, vaccines do not.

Vaccines do provide protection against being infected, specially after boosting, your own reference had to control for vaccination in order to analyze the results.

while a prior infection provides protection for at least a year.

Again by making the infected people get the full risks first, also you have not provided any reference that proves being infected by omicron provides protection for a year, much less against other sub-variants.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Certainly not from the doctors that had their medical licences suspended and their records seized by authorities for doing something that wasn't sanctioned by the big pharma/WHO/CDC et al narrative

As it should be, their professional responsibility is to use the best treatment according to the current evidence, those that put their own personal beliefs above the consensus of the medical and scientific community are being incompetent and should be penalized for this reason, it is the same as doctors that do unnecessary surgeries or prescribe antibiotics against viral infections, it does not matter how sure they are they are correct, the evidence contradicts their beliefs and without providing their own evidence in a scientific manner they are simply acting wrong.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

The data indicates otherwise:

and the virologists that studied the data highlight its flaws

“It’s a good study,” says Kei Sato, a virologist at the University of Tokyo. But he points out that the length of time between first and second infections could have influenced the results. Earlier variants have been around longer than Omicron, which emerged only in late 2021. And several studies, including one by the same team in Qatar2, have shown that natural immunity against SARS-CoV-2 wanes over time.

Alex Sigal, a virologist at the Africa Health Research Institute in Durban, South Africa, agrees. “The time that [has] passed since your original infection is much shorter with Omicron, so it’s really not a fair comparison,” he says. Sigal adds that participants’ vaccination statuses are unclear from the results, as is information on whether primary infections took place before or after vaccination, which could be an important consideration.

Abu-Raddad says the study’s purpose was to investigate who is currently most prone to reinfection, rather than to attribute natural immunity to a particular viral strain. He says the study’s design controls for the effects of vaccination, and the team conducted a sensitivity analysis to adjust for vaccine status, the results of which were consistent with the overall conclusions.

“The immunity you’re getting from these Omicron infections actually protects you from other Omicron sub-lineages to some extent,” says Sigal. However, “COVID is everywhere,” Sato warns. “It can easily evolve into a new variant.”

2 ( +6 / -4 )

28 or 15% obviously mean most people are still at risk of a reinfection,

Yeah, that is the protection a pre-Omicron infection provides against reinfection with BA.4 or BA.5.

In the same time frame, the protection provided by vaccination is much lower, basically zero.

Prior infection with Omicron was 79.7% effective at preventing BA.4 and BA.5 reinfection, and 76.1% effective at preventing symptomatic reinfection. Infection provides mucousal immunity, vaccines do not; that is why infection protects against reinfection, not just symptoms...

and to get these low levels of protection they had to run the full risks of the infection in the first place,

If you are healthy, those risks are extremely low, and the protection is long lasting. Vaccination has its own risks, and the protection (from symptoms only) is short lived.

I don't recall when this Japanese stat was from or the exact age range, but at some point when there were 3 covid deaths among Japanese children, there were 5 vaccine deaths. For kids, the vaccines are more dangerous than the virus.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@Raw Beer

What "other countries"? Europe? America? then had millions of deaths like they did? haha

0 ( +5 / -5 )

JexanToday  09:13 am JST

Sore throat and slight fever. Over in a few days. Move on. Japan is stuck in 2021.

Over 10,000 died from a sore throat and slight fever this year ? I guess their funerals are over in a few days….

1 ( +8 / -7 )

So every time someone gets positive at work, they get two weeks off, My lady friend says she is working so hard to keep up with work with so many people being off, It's better to get it and get a two week holiday.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I had it recently but didn’t register. I think their are many more just like me. My symptoms were similar to seasonal heat attack.

I had it recently and was laid out with a fever, fatigue, joint pain, horrible cough, and congestions for six days. I'm still suffering with a horrible cough that causes horrible chest pain. I think there are many more just like me.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

To say this is incorrect you need a reference where scientific evidence was evident at that time, you have repeatedly said this was the case, but not provided such reference ever, not even once.

That means it is not incorrect, the evidence at the time was only about benefits from mask use on hospitals when dealing with symptomatic patients. 

So can you provide the scientifi evidence requirede for all the medical authorities to justify the recommendation? or will you again be unable to do it?

If you are saying masks are not effective for preventing Covid infections, then you agree with the WHO in March 31, 2020, when almost half the world took a different medical approach.

Otherwise, you agree with the experts in Asia's advice in 2020 pre-March 31, and the consensus advice of global experts today; unless you are denying the science again.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

In the same time frame, the protection provided by vaccination is much lower, basically zero.

No, it is not, a booster is recommended to the general population precisely to increase the protection against omicron, when you end up completely misrepresenting the actual situation just to defend the very limited protection that infection gives you make it completely evident you are not interested in what is actually better for people, just to present a distorted view as long as it makes vaccines worse than what they actually are.

Infection provides mucousal immunity, vaccines do not;

That can be the reason why the infection is so defective, mucosal immunity is shorter lasted and less effective than humoral immunity for covid.

And again, vaccines protect against the risks from the first infection, obviously getting the infection gives zero protection against it (because immunity do not travel in time to the past) so by any standard the natural infection is a worse protection.

If you are healthy, those risks are extremely low, and the protection is long lasting. Vaccination has its own risks, and the protection (from symptoms only) is short lived.

Do you know what is several orders of magnitude less risky than the infection? the vaccines. And no, you have not produced any evidence that infection with omicron gives any kind of long lasting protection against any other variant, so your affirmation is baseless.

I don't recall when this Japanese stat was from or the exact age range, but at some point when there were 3 covid deaths among Japanese children, there were 5 vaccine deaths. For kids, the vaccines are more dangerous than the virus.

You can't recall it because it does not exist. It is just an imaginary "fact" that has no basis on reality. Vaccines decrease the risk for every population for which they are indicated, the experts are in consensus about it, and this includes children.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

If you are saying masks are not effective for preventing Covid infections, then you agree with the WHO in March 31, 2020, when almost half the world took a different medical approach.

Again, you have presented zero references that point to the scientific evidence required for any scientific authority to make a recomendation.

Without that reference you have no argument, all scientific conclusions and recommendation require scientific evidence, so pretending all the institutions of medicine and science to make a recommendation not sustained by evidence only makes it clear you don't understand what it means to be a scientific authority.

So, can you present that evidence you said was available before the pandemic? or was it something false?

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Raw Beer Today 03:32 pm JST

the protection provided by vaccination is much lower, basically zero

And by "basically zero" you of course mean "77% after the 3rd shot":

"Among those infected with BA.5, booster vaccination was associated with 77% and 88% of reduction in risk of COVID-19 hospitalization and death, respectively (...) Although less effective compared with BA.2, COVID-19 booster vaccination still offers substantial protection against severe outcomes following BA.5 infection."

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.25.22277996v1

and the protection [from previous infection] is long lasting.

Even the not-peer-reviewed preprint you cite above came to the expressed conclusion that there is insufficient data to make any statement about how long protection from previous infection will last. Let alone the "one year" you claim (spoiler: we don't have data from one year of BA.5 yet).

Vaccination has its own risks

True, if miniscule. Are you arguing that the vaccine has equal or greater risk than the infection itself?

at some point when there were 3 covid deaths among Japanese children, there were 5 vaccine deaths

Sorry, but that is ridiculous, where do you get your data from? For context: 3 suspected cases were enough for the Moderna vaccine to be pulled entirely after the contamination incident. No way they would willfully overlook three child deaths, from any vaccine. Are you mixing in data from the 2011 incident with pneumonia vaccines (where 4 children died)?

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Again, you have presented zero references that point to the scientific evidence required for any scientific authority to make a recomendation.

I have.

So all the authorities in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan--they were making recommendations without scientific evidence, and their recommendations were wrong?

So let's see the scientific evidence that says masks are not effective against the spread COVID-19, the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that emerged in December 2019.

Without that reference you have no argument, all scientific conclusions and recommendation require scientific evidence, so pretending all the institutions of medicine and science to make a recommendation not sustained by evidence only makes it clear you don't understand what it means to be a scientific authority.

I have given the references you ignored. And I have the argument based on the fact masks were recommended to be used by experts in Asia. You are still pretending that did not occur? If you were in Japan at that time you would have seen the result of that advice.

So, can you present that evidence you said was available before the pandemic? or was it something false?

Show the evidence that says the masks didn't work against Covid--let's see the peer- reviewed scientific study that came out between December 2019 and March 31, 2020---since we are not medical professionals we have to rely on such studies.

Let's see the one you read, and which you claim you are relying on to make your argument.

Otherwise, you are trapped in trying to support advice given by the WHO that even the WHO today does not support.

It's like advocating for bloodletting when someone has a cough because that's what the barbers did in the 15th century.

Anytime you have that scientific reference.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Raw Beer Today 03:32 pm JST

the protection provided by vaccination is much lower, basically zero

And by "basically zero" you of course mean "77% after the 3rd shot":

Yeah, 77% after the 3rd shot. But this protection (against symptoms) only lasts for a few months. After that, it wanes rapidly and quickly turns into negative protection (less than zero).

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Raw BeerToday 04:44 pm JST

it wanes rapidly and quickly turns into negative protection (less than zero).

Negative protection? How do you come up with this hogwash? Who is pulling your leg?

5 ( +8 / -3 )

I have.

None that anybody can see.

So all the authorities in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Taiwan--they were making recommendations without scientific evidence, and their recommendations were wrong?

Your argument is that not making those recommendations is a mistake, for that you need to prove there is evidence available before the pandemic, since you keep commenting without presenting that evidence you are making it clear there is no such thing. Therefore there is no mistake, all the scientific authorities were perfectly fine recommending the only thing that the evidence proved, which is that masks should be prioritized for their use in hospitals for syntomatic patients.

I have given the references you ignored

No you have not, as clear as you are again unable to do it here, there is no such reference.

Show the evidence that says the masks didn't work against Covid

That is irrelevant, your argument completely depends on the opposite evidence being available, if you can't produce a reference of that evidence that still means your personal criticism (not made by any actual expert) do not apply, as long as there was no evidence of usefulness then there is no problem by not recommending their use.

Let's see the one you read, and which you claim you are relying on to make your argument.

My argument is that there is no evidence of benefit outside of their use in hospitals for syntomatic patients, as long as you can't produce that evidence before the pandemic that means my argument is still solid.

since we are not medical professionals

As usual, every time you run out of arguments you end up trying to guess what other people are or not. Baseless accusations are not arguments, unless you can prove what any other commenter is or not you can't assume it, much less make it an argument.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Yeah, 77% after the 3rd shot. But this protection (against symptoms) only lasts for a few months. After that, it wanes rapidly and quickly turns into negative protection (less than zero).

No it does not, that is a well debunked disinformation bit that comes from an article where the authors actually recommenda vaccination and boosting. People trying to use that supposed argument always try to hide the original source precisely because it actually says nothing of the sort.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

JexanToday  09:13 am JST

Sore throat and slight fever. Over in a few days. Move on. Japan is stuck in 2021.

Over 10,000 died from a sore throat and slight fever this year ? I guess their funerals are over in a few days….

Every death is sad but 1.3 million people die in Japan every year. This will likely increase as the population continues to have a higher percentage of older than 75. The 10k this year due to Covid complications is regrettable but does not warrant the negative psychological and economic damage of the other 125 million.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

it wanes rapidly and quickly turns into negative protection (less than zero).

Negative protection? How do you come up with this hogwash? Who is pulling your leg?

That "hogwash" comes from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30895-3

About the vaccine side effects in Japanese kids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8GkIwOGB4

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

As usual, every time you run out of arguments you end up trying to guess what other people are or not. Baseless accusations are not arguments, unless you can prove what any other commenter is or not you can't assume it, much less make it an argument.

You ask for evidence, I provide it, but in turn you produce ZERO evidence supporting your claim.

And you support NOT wearing masks outside of hospitals.

I have news for you; every scientific authority disagrees with you.

Here's one:

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

Go ahead---continue to deny science.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Infection provides mucousal immunity, vaccines do not;

That can be the reason why the infection is so defective, mucosal immunity is shorter lasted and less effective than humoral immunity for covid.

Mucosal immunity is what prevents infection; i.e., it's what we want if we want to block the spread and reach herd immunity, which the vaccines do not do. Vaccines only reduce the symptoms, for a couple of months....

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

You ask for evidence, I provide it, but in turn you produce ZERO evidence supporting your claim.

You provided exactly zero evidence.

My claim is that you have no evidence to prove your accusation. The lack of any evidence from your part is precisely what proves my point.

And you support NOT wearing masks outside of hospitals.

Where exactly, making up imaginary things just because you where proved wrong is not an argument.

First you imagine you know the occupation of other people commenting here, without any evidence to support it, then you imagine things nobody has said. It is difficult to make more clear how you have run out of arguments to defend something that you now understand to be mistaken.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

That "hogwash" comes from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30895-3

The conclusions from the authors in the references completely contradict what you misrepresent.

mRNA vaccines provide comparable, moderate, and short-lived protection against symptomatic BA.1 and BA.2 Omicron infections, but strong and durable protection against COVID-19 hospitalization and death.

About the vaccine side effects in Japanese kids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8GkIwOGB4

What is the video supposed to prove? the experts in it clearly says the vaccines (not even boosted) have a significant effect decreasing the infection from omicron, this completely contradicts your point. And in no point there is an argument that the vaccines caused any of the deaths on minors, only that they died after being vaccinated, It is even written on big red letters. This is in contrast with the infection, that can be correlated as a cause easily.

Mucosal immunity is what prevents infection;

Not when the immunity is much more short lasted and less effective, specially because it act only once instead of continously as humoral immunity. It has been proved scientifically.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.06.09.495422v1

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Mucosal immunity is what prevents infection;

Not when the immunity is much more short lasted and less effective, specially because it act only once instead of continously as humoral immunity. It has been proved scientifically.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.06.09.495422v1

You seem to be confusing the presence or amount of antibody with immunity. I know that you know that that is not right. The waning of antibodies is expected....

BTW, did you notice on the very first line of the paper you referenced:

"Secretory immunoglobulin A (IgA) plays a crucial role in the mucosal immunity for preventing the invasion of the exogenous antigens... "

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

You seem to be confusing the presence or amount of antibody with immunity. I know that you know that that is not right. The waning of antibodies is expected

Neutralizing antibody levels are well characterized surrogate of protection in the case of covid. There is no confusion. Antibody levels dropping is valid evidence of protection also dropping.

BTW, did you notice on the very first line of the paper you referenced:

Which does absolutely nothing to change the conclusions that for SARS-CoV-2 is a terribly poor replacement of humoral immunity. Which would indicate that the protection being conferred by the vaccines is much more important than what could be gained from mucosal immunity. This is not a rare case and help understanding why mucosal vaccine candidates have not been able to be as effective as injected vaccines for other infectious diseases as well.

Specially important is that in order to get that shorter, less effective immunity the person has to be exposed to the full risks he is trying to prevent, which obviously defeats the whole purpose of gaining immunity in the first place.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Raw BeerToday 05:03 pm JST

Negative protection?* How do you come up with this hogwash?

That "hogwash" comes from:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-30895-3

Ah, I thought so. To quote that very study:

"Negative estimated effectiveness likely reflects an effect of bias and not true negative biological effectiveness. (...) Bias due to depletion of the susceptible population may lead to underestimation of vaccine effectiveness."

Or in other words: This far in the pandemic we simply don't know how many people are still virus-naive, a comparison with an "unvaccinated" control group will always be biased against vaccine efficacy.

About the vaccine side effects in Japanese kids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8GkIwOGB4

Side effects: yes. Deaths: no. You did notice the footnote in the chart?

「因果関係は認められていない」

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

You seem to be confusing the presence or amount of antibody with immunity. I know that you know that that is not right. The waning of antibodies is expected

Neutralizing antibody levels are well characterized surrogate of protection in the case of covid. There is no confusion. Antibody levels dropping is valid evidence of protection also dropping.

OK, maybe you don't believe me, but do you believe yourself. You (virusrex) wrote the following:

July 15, 2020 : “The rest is the same, antibodies levels being reduced over time (wow, news from two months ago!), but without even one single case of reinfection, because the assumption that the levels are a perfect surrogate for infection is obviously mistaken.”

July 16, 2020: “The article (and the study) are wrong for one very important point. antibodies are not a perfect surrogate for immunity.”

July 17, 2020: “…looking exclusively to antibodies and saying "see, immunity disappear!" is simply wrong. Specially because even a postgraduate student or a resident on immunology knows that cellular immunity can fulfill that role without trouble, both the scientists and the media have a responsibility to include this in the discussion.”

But today, you say that because the serum IgA drop after 70 days, that must mean that immunity does too. The epidemiological studies from Qatar and elsewhere say otherwise....

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

OK, maybe you don't believe me, but do you believe yourself. You (virusrex) wrote the following:

Yes, antibodies are not a perfect surrogate, but if the the parameter you have to compare is levels of antibodies then something that produces lower levels and that decrease quicker obviously that means it is less protective. You could contradict this with better evidence of protection (like activation of cellular immunity on a higher degree) but you have presented no such thing.

So obviously the only logical conclusion is that the reason you want to push for infection to be more protective does nothing of the sort, the evidence points out to humoral immunity to be better, even if it is not perfect evidence.

But today, you say that because the serum IgA drop after 70 days, that must mean that immunity does too. The epidemiological studies from Qatar and elsewhere say otherwise....

No, that is again your strawman, what I am saying is that humoral immunity keeps higher levels for longer time, so it is a much better protection unless other evidence disproves it. That mucosal vaccines have failed to replace injectable vaccines is another piece of evidence that points to the same conclusion.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Side effects: yes. Deaths: no. You did notice the footnote in the chart?

「因果関係は認められていない」

Yeah, they did not yet confirm the 5 child deaths (last year) were caused by the vaccine, but they did not confirm the vaccines didn't cause the deaths.

They have not yet been certified as vaccine deaths, but clearly fewer kids died last year from covid than died soon after vaccination from something that could be vaccine related (i.e., not an accident).

In other words, for young healthy people, the vaccines are not worth the risk, especially now that the virus is milder and that almost everyone has already been infected (whether we felt it or not).

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I’m all for moving the goalposts to get the numbers down, because this is a really bad look for Japan. Who cares what the real numbers are, just dress it up to look good.

I’m getting tired of telling people from overseas that no, this is not plague island—it’s all pretty normal.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Thank god someone has the balls to mention the strain on the medical system and call out the government for their complacency. Their complacency make it feel unsafe to live in one of the safest supposed countries. Thank you sir. Also hopefully this will promote more funding in Japan for long Covid research

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yeah, they did not yet confirm the 5 child deaths (last year) were caused by the vaccine, but they did not confirm the vaccines didn't cause the deaths.

This is precisely the reason why your argument is invalid. What if 200 of the vaccinated children had a huge increase in grades? if they did not confirm it was because of the vaccines but neither they confirmed the vaccines were not the reason, would it be rational to conclude the vaccines must be related to it?

They have not yet been certified as vaccine deaths, but clearly fewer kids died last year from covid than died soon after vaccination from something that could be vaccine related (i.e., not an accident).

And what children do you think are being prioritized for vaccination? those at perfect health or those that are already at a very high risk of death (those suffering from cancer for example)?

In other words, for young healthy people, the vaccines are not worth the risk, 

Again baseless assumptions, prove the children that died were healthy, else you can't make that argument. You don't even need to prove the vaccines are the only possible cause, but you still have to prove this is a higher than expected number according to the characteristics of the vaccinated children.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Its all about money and staying foreigner free.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Time to lock down all of Japan and wait for pandemic to go away..

0 ( +1 / -1 )

All that pandemic demostrated was that international, US and UK health organisations have been compromised by those who profit from the major Pharmeceutical corporations and that they can no longer be relied upon. All health information should be analysed and reviewed internally and all judgements based upon internally audited evidence from all other sources and foreign conclusions need to be largely ignored.

Much like the USA banning marijuana globally and now making legal for recreational use, whilst the continue with the international ban. You really have to question their motivations and logic and clearly internal studies and extensive trials should be the only data to be relied upon.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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