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Tokyo Medical University confirms altering scores to limit women

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By Mari Yamaguchi

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I say that the school can atone by not being allowed to accept tuition from ANY student, nor receive ANY government funds, for the next 2 years.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

The school said the manipulation should not have occurred and would not in the future. It said it would consider retroactively admitting those who otherwise would have passed the exams, although it did not explain how it would do so.

Should not have occurred, but has been happening, according to your own admittance, for over 12 years?

Just whom is everyone supposed to believe here? You have been lying to people for so long that you think that if you tell more lies that they will somehow become the truth?

Right, someone who passed 12 years ago, but you deducted their points so they couldn't enter? You OWE them more than just admittance. How about paying for their tuition and fees and housing for as long as they are in school?

8 ( +12 / -4 )

Yukioka said women were not treated differently once they were accepted, but acknowledged that some people believe women were not allowed to become surgeons.

The reason why is perfectly laid out here.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2532461/Why-having-women-doctors-hurting-NHS-A-provovcative-powerful-argument-leading-surgeon.html

The above should be reprinted in Sankei or Yomiuri.

-15 ( +2 / -17 )

Retroactively, allow admittance.....

They also need to prorate the fees for all students affected. Only the students denied this year needs to pay full tuition. If you were denied 12 years ago then it should be free. If it was 11 years ago then tuition should be extremely low and so on.

P.S. Well all know that there is a high probability that this has been going for much longer than 12 years. A private institution with a long tradition just doesn't all of sudden become sexists. Luckily for them, 12 years is probably all that can be proven against them.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Only the students denied this year needs to pay full tuition. If you were denied 12 years ago then it should be free. If it was 11 years ago then tuition should be extremely low and so on.

It costs a hell of a lot of money and time preparing for and applying for entrance to these schools. They should be compensated somehow!

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Well, now that explains a lot. (referring to quality of treatment at hospitals.)

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Why is media not asking to check all other medical universities right now? I suspect they'd find similar results.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

This is fraud, straight up! They bozo have affected the lives of countless people not being accepted when they should have. Something needs to be done.... but this is Japan.... nothing will... makes me so angry that anyone with any money can get away with anything in this country!

5 ( +7 / -2 )

While obviously unfair to the female candidates - worse that less-than-qualified males became doctors. Japan needs the best in medicine, not the marginally acceptable.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

@Yubaru

It costs a hell of a lot of money and time preparing for and applying for entrance to these schools. They should be compensated somehow!

This is true, but that is true for anyone sending out multiple applications. When a student is accepted to multiple schools, do they get an application refund for the schools that they decline? The answer is no. I would say the students who are affected this year by the scandal should be refunded their application fee if they decline the schools offer of admittance with a serious apology, but they should pay full amount if they accept the schools offer to be admitted. They are still getting the opportunity to fulfill dream. The amount of time passed is not that long. Anyone accepted this year was most likely prepared to pay tuition to attend. The school needs to operate, and we don't know the financial situation of the school.

I am more inclined to compensate the students from previous because we don't know to what extent this has affected their lives over the past 12 lives. Some people's lives could have been totally different. Those people should be offered as much assistance as possible for a second chance at following their dream.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The plight of the female in East Asia is appalling.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Yukioka said women were not treated differently once they were accepted, but acknowledged that some people believe women were not allowed to become surgeons.

This I have a lot of trouble believing. The same people who actively participated in sexist discrimination suddenly switched off their “sexist” buttons the rest of the time? Sounds very unlikely to me, a full investigation of discrimination at the University not limited to falsifying entrance exam results is warranted if they want to rebuild public trust.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Why it is good (for male doctors, too) to have more female doctors: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/08/women-more-likely-to-survive-heart-attacks-if-treated-by-female-doctors/566837/

The article is not just someone's opinion or pure speculation but based on data and multiple studies.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

People keep flinging about like confetti a link to four-year-old article by the daily mail (spits onto floor, for it is a despicable rag of a publication) which claims to lay out reasons why having female doctors is not as good as having male doctors. However, if you actually read the dm article (spits again) you'll see that the fault lies not with the women being less able, or even less willing, but in fact being forced to prepare for having a full-time job as well as being a full-time parent. If parenting and household responsibilities, and childcare facilities, were better, this would not be an issue.

Why aren't male doctors factoring in their present/future parenting roles when they select their speciality? There are just as many fathers as there are mothers, after all.

Answer - Because they assume the woman will bear that load. Fix what is at fault, not the efforts - overwhelmingly made by women - to handle the faults.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Class action case. Japanese women have to be all compensated financially since 2006 to teach the govt a lesson.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Class action case. Japanese women have to be all compensated financially since 2006 to teach the govt a lesson.

The women who reasonably would have been admitted and had their futures altered due to flagrant discrimination should be compensated - unquestionably. Women who would have had no chance at admittance have no more right to compensation than those men denied entry during the same period. In fact their are men that took the entrance exam multiple times that were also denied entry who were also discriminated against. These men should be compensated. Justice isn’t a money grab for people who were not actually harmed.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@Akie

Class action case. Japanese women have to be all compensated financially since 2006 to teach the govt a lesson.

Not realistic! Japanese law doesn't allow for such types of cases. Prosecutors don't know how to build such case, and judges don't want to precide over this kind of case because they will be pressured by connected people who don't want their schools to lose face in Japan. Remember they have already said that they want to wrap it up quick!

The talk of a class action lawsuit would just mean that the court will allow the school to investigate themselves as an alternative to going to trial. That will just make it easier to sweep it under the rug. No one wants this to be spread to other private schools which will make the government look bad too.

That at is why I think my suggestion would be more practical for everyone involved. At least for this school. Unfortunately, it won't help the entire society.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

So, who is going to resign; who is going to go to prison, and how much compensation is the school going to pay to each and every woman it cheated out of a career?

8 ( +9 / -1 )

A generalized assumption; but i can just imagine that if this is happening in an institution of higher learning in Japan, and with the suspiciously fixed 30% population of female doctors across the country - then this form of discrimination must be happening elsewhere other than schools. Oh my.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Management should be fired and all the ladies should be compensated!!!

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Back in May the Times reported that six women claimed that Tyndall, who retired after working at USC for nearly 30 years, had "sexually victimized them under the pretext of medical care

This is horrible. But it doesn't have any bearing on the deep-rooted profound sexism highlighted in the article.

Unfortunately, sexism seems to be endemic in Japan and needs to be addressed.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Imagine you learn you failed the exam because you were a woman and would have passed otherwise! Hopefully they'll let people see the details of their exams and based on how badly they were robbed of their chance they will be eligible for reparations. Hopefully this can be the beginning of something bigger. Also I hope they are able to interview some current or former female students and have them share their opinions if the sexism was not an issue while studying like the school claims.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

IS AMERICA ANY BETTER ON THE ISSUE???????????????????????????????????????????

I sincerely doubt it but I'm wondering what bearing it has on the treatment of women here in Japan?

Friends of mine are routinely hassled and propositioned when on their own, on their way home often in broad daylight here in Japan. So, it's not just in schools and colleges. It's widespread and is a real stain on this great country's reputation.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

"I suspect that there was a lack of sensitivity to the rules of modern society, in which women should not be treated differently because of their gender," he said.

You reckon? Have to admit, always have a good chuckle when I read/hear these dinosaurs talk about our 'modern society' and its 'new' norms. Like it just happened overnight.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Nothing new here, really and nor surprise at all. More than 30 years ago I taught at one of the top medical universities in Kyoto and was first asked, then unceremoniously commanded to alter the test results of a student who never attended classes (except for the first lesson and the test) and failed a real simple exam. I refused and my contract was terminated. I am very sure the matter was handled internally and the student passed. They can't really upset rich parents who make 'contributions' and many parents working in the medical establishment themselves.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

They are still getting the opportunity to fulfill dream. The amount of time passed is not that long. Anyone accepted this year was most likely prepared to pay tuition to attend. The school needs to operate, and we don't know the financial situation of the school.

Wow, you are willing to give the school a pass on their actions based upon this?

I almost get the impression, based upon your replies here that somehow you are involved with or have more knowledge about the school than you are letting on here.

This is true, but that is true for anyone sending out multiple applications. When a student is accepted to multiple schools, do they get an application refund for the schools that they decline? 

So what? How can you justify the actions of the school, based upon this? It's flimsy at best, and I am not willing to write what's the worst because it would be deleted here.

It's none of the business of the school how many places a student applies for, are you going to penalize me for shopping around and me checking my options? It's a ludicrous argument.

You also assume that these students applied elsewhere, based upon what knowledge I have no idea, yet probably just an assumption on your part, yet maybe they didn't, what are you going to assume then?

Why do you care about the financial situation of the school? What's your angle? The school could shut down and so what if it did, there are other medical schools that could cover the needs.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Someone needs to go to jail (for a long time), Japan needs to send out a message that this will not be tolerated. If nothing happens, Japan government is sending out the message this type of behavior is tolerated.

The women in Japan need to have some sort of womens revolution.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

@Yubaru

Wow, you are willing to give the school a pass on their actions based upon this? 

I almost get the impression, based upon your replies here that somehow you are involved with or have more knowledge about the school than you are letting on here.

You seem to be off the mark and grasping at straws. Who said I am giving anybody a pass? You are either not reading carefully or willfully ignoring what others are saying because you think that you are morally right. People with common sense knows that there are layers to this. Not all applicants can possibly be treated equally in this situation because their situations are not all the same. It isn't an all or nothing situation.

So what? How can you justify the actions of the school, based upon this? It's flimsy at best, and I am not willing to write what's the worst because it would be deleted here.

It's none of the business of the school how many places a student applies for, are you going to penalize me for shopping around and me checking my options? It's a ludicrous argument.

You also assume that these students applied elsewhere, based upon what knowledge I have no idea, yet probably just an assumption on your part, yet maybe they didn't, what are you going to assume then?

Why do you care about the financial situation of the school? What's your angle? The school could shut down and so what if it did, there are other medical schools that could cover the needs.

Not only are you proving my point above about being off the mark, but you being overly emotional and not making logical sense in your argument. You are now claiming others are making illogical assumptions with straw an arguments by making illogical assumptions yourself. Your examples don't make sense and are irrelevant to the point that you are trying to make.

I wonder how many lawyers won their trials by saying, "Yeah, that's true. So, what?" Lol!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

NHS data from that dailymail article: """GMC’s 2013 report is illuminating. It lists the number of female doctors by speciality for 2012, and shows how many are attracted to general practice rather than other areas of medicine: general practice 29,272; anaesthesia 3,118; paediatrics 2,477; psychiatry 1,778; general medicine 1,054; general surgery 467; trauma and orthopaedics 191.

Compare this with the number of male doctors by speciality, and you can see the huge difference in general surgery as well as trauma and orthopaedics — both of which involve the complex, antisocial hours that deter so many women: general practice 31,711; anaesthesia 6,940; paediatrics 2,578; psychiatry 3,302; general medicine 3,737; general surgery 3,779; trauma and orthopaedics 3,629. """

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

TrevorPeace

@mu-da, if that's true, I hope you documented the experience and can put it forward to the appropriate authorities, otherwise, it's useless commentary. Walk the talk.

It was 30 years ago and I actually did report it to the authorities who put me into that teaching position. Reaction? "Moshi wakenai". Have you ever reported corruption or collusion in Japan yourself? Experience? Results? What happens to foreigners rocking the boat was best illustrated at Olympus.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Crush someones dreams. Bow. Move on.

So Japanese.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@Yubaru

Why do you care about the financial situation of the school? What's your angle? The school could shut down and so what if it did, there are other medical schools that could cover the needs.

So, the students with no connection to this scandal in their second, third, or fourth year of medical school should just forfeit all of their time, grades, and opportunities to start over because students this year who have been unconvenienced for a few months regardless if they truly passed the exam or not (wolfpack's point above) won't receive the same amount of compensation as people who were also truly wronged 12 years ago or even longer.

See how selfish and ridiculous that is?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Not all applicants can possibly be treated equally in this situation because their situations are not all the same. It isn't an all or nothing situation.

Ah, you side step the point by trying to obfuscate and deflect the issue. I never stated it was "all or nothing" beyond stating that the students denied entry must be compensated.

You are either not reading carefully or willfully ignoring what others are saying because you think that you are morally right.

I am not replying to "others" I am reply solely to you and what you wrote. Nice try though

>  but you being overly emotional and not making logical sense in your argument.

Really now? Seems to me that you are taking things personally here but that's neither here nor there to me. Now just who is replying "emotionally"?

What is your stake in this University? Maybe a graduate defending his alma mater perhaps?

BTW, my argument IS "morally right" your's well......

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Readers, please refrain from sniping at each other. Please focus your comments on the story and not at each other.

Just to add some more stats and other relevant info as it seems that the argument is not about unfair treatment and lies but it has spread to the argument about women as surgeons. 

In the U.S., 18 % of women are surgeons. Many occupy top leading positions. 

I suspect that percentages are higher in some European countries (such as Latvia, Spain, Finland, Poland, Portugal, ...) because the % of female physicians in some European countries is over 50%.

How having women surgeons is actually beneficial, not MDs only in general for patients' health outcomes:

http://time.com/4975232/women-surgeon-surgery/

Another beneficial aspect on surgical teams' cooperation and women's contribution:

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/yelling-cursing-less-likely-break-out-operating-rooms-when-female-surgeons-are-present

All the while women physicians are still being underpaid, expected to do more housework and childcare (not only in Japan).

This morning, on TBS and Asahi TV, female Japanese surgeons (外科医) reported that once women do get a position as a (young) surgeon, senior male surgeons still give preference to (young) male surgeons. That means that senior men mentor younger men, invite them to watch and assist in surgeries (立ち会わせ) to gain experience, and provide more training opportunities to them.

No wonder women might be inclined to leave such work environment. Discrimination continues even after you get into medical school. But perhaps instead of reducing the number of women in medical schools and in medicine (there is a lack of doctors in Japan), maybe work conditions should be improved? That would benefit the men, too.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Edit: 18% of surgeons are women**

1 ( +1 / -0 )

This is only one school. Fiddling of test grades are SOP in Japanese schools from junior high upwards although, it's usually done to pass students, not fail them. This is done to keep averages high, so Japan Inc. can boast about high score averages on the international education scale, which of course is just more smoke and mirrors BS from Japan Inc.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Everyone knows "Woman" make better Doctors than Men!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

For the students who applied for the first time this year, all the people who actually passed should be allowed entry at the school if they still want to go. Most students have a plan BCD..... It is the normal routine. If they don't want to attend then refund their application fee. For the people who applied several times, refund all the application fees from the time they originally passed and maybe tutoring fees. For the people who actually passed from years ago, if they want to go to school, then make it free or give a really really good discount. It should be like seniority thing. If they don't want to go then refund the application fee.

All parties involved have choices, opportunities and some kind of compensation.

If they never really passed then they should not be refunded.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Good thing its coming out! It’s the only to stop the rot.

$100 says a bow and a crocodile tear will male this go away.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

And now for a radical opinion.

I understand the general thinking of people who say that women often opt out of careers.

Its simply true.

There really are huge numbers of female university graduates who WILLINGLY drop out of careers for years and decades. There are still women who went to good universities in order to marry “well” who had no intention of working till retirement.

And yes, female doctors more than men, might take years off and some will later just work part-time.

Having said that ....

what the university did is just inexcusable and a total disgrace. If I were a woman who failed and didn’t get to be a doctor - I’d be either depressed livid or both.

Sue them!

absolute disgrace.

And I’ll be choosing female doctors from this day on.

After all, they made it even with being handicapped so they must be smarter on average than the men.

Come to think of it, I’ve come across some really dumb male doctors here.

i even think a prison sentence is in order for those who were involved in this.

But it nothing surprises me in Japan really.

Been here too long.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Sarcasm alert

I know we should just limit women in all educational fields in colleges, as it would just be a waste of time. Heck why start at university level, little girls should not go to school at all, they should just stay at home and learn how to be doting wives/mother.

*Now back to your regularly scheduled program

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Its definitely a case of fraud BUT I can see what the University is saying female graduates are highly likely to leave the profession to become mothers, so the school is looking at the bigger picture and trying to keep doctors in the system for the greater good.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

All of those scandals publicly disclosed in Japan means that it confirms altering to better or to normalized method? It's no good the things have to be changed because of scandals, things should be changed with people who have spirit of courage and responsibility, or it will happen again other time when "tricky guys" will rule from the top. In this Tokyo medical school to conclude the problems is only to have some women at the top and many dirty things will be cleaned up.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The school said the manipulation should not have occurred and would not in the future. So, why did they allow it to occur? They’ll stop only because they were caught.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

PSandozToday  08:43 am JST

So, who is going to resign; who is going to go to prison, and how much compensation is the school going to pay to each and every woman it cheated out of a career?

What I don't understand is if staff are going to resign, such as this incident, will they leave the school/organization for good, or just get reassigned to another job in the university? It's a big gray cloud of misunderstanding. If it were my daughter applying and they (the school) admits to fixing test scores, a simple bow and apology will not do for me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Time for some reverse discrimintion against males until the last 40 yrs has been made up for ... I'm guessing that will take about ... er ... 40 yrs.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

SHAME on a culture that would allow this to happen

0 ( +0 / -0 )

More than 30 years ago I taught at one of the top medical universities in Kyoto and was first asked, then unceremoniously commanded to alter the test results of a student who never attended classes (except for the first lesson and the test) and failed a real simple exam. I refused and my contract was terminated.

That's awful and a newsworthy story in itself. You should talk to journalists covering this.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Yubaru

For the students who applied for the first time this year, all the people who actually passed should be allowed entry at the school if they still want to go. Most students have a plan BCD..... It is the normal routine. If they don't want to attend then refund their application fee. For the people who applied several times, refund all the application fees from the time they originally passed and maybe tutoring fees. For the people who actually passed from years ago, if they want to go to school, then make it free or give a really really good discount. It should be like seniority thing. If they don't want to go then refund the application fee.

All parties involved have choices, opportunities and some kind of compensation.

If they never really passed then they should not be refunded.

Finally, someone with common sense gets it!

Really now? Seems to me that you are taking things personally here but that's neither here nor there to me. Now just who is replying "emotionally"?

What is your stake in this University? Maybe a graduate defending his alma mater perhaps?

A list of ridiculous conspiracy theories to change the focus of your illogical argument with me. Yes, I am being paid by the J-Medical industry to cause confusion on JT by using common sense and critical thinking skills in my posts.

BTW, my argument IS "morally right" your's well......

Religious zealots blowing up schools with children in them also think that they are morally right. Like Yubaru said, "So, What?"

3 ( +3 / -0 )

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