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Japan now scrambling jets against Chinese military aircraft taking off from Fujian

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Send in the F-22’s and 35’s at ‘em...if they wanna’ play, let’s PLAY.

11 ( +26 / -15 )

Good for Japan. The ASDF will never back down to the Communist forces, in their mission to protect Japans inalienable territory - the Senkakus.

If Communist China want to play with fire, theyll be burnt to ash.

14 ( +26 / -12 )

The CCP is playing a very dangerous game, one that soon they will overstep will possibly no way to walk back. Japan along with her allies better have their game plan ready, that time may soon be happening as China is fast crumbling down around the CCP. First the virus, then the flooding, now the destruction of new crops by flooding and mold found in stockpiles is going to lead to massive food shortages and the locusts are approaching from the west. Then there are those with no jobs because of the economy crashing due to the CCP virus and Chinese are panicking that Chinese banks are going to collapse so they are withdrawing as much cash as possible. Huawei is being blocked by most of the first world countries and the USA will be blocking CCP members and those with connection to the CCP and Human Rights Violations. CCP members will have no place to go and when the civil unrest begins in China, you know their heads will roll. Nothing scarier than a cornered animal that knows its gonna die and it has nuclear weapons.

28 ( +37 / -9 )

Japan along with her allies better have their game plan ready

Hi Knowbetter.

I notice that you use the plural; allies,

Would you mind filling us in on just who they might be?

gary

-20 ( +8 / -28 )

garymalmgren might be USA, Australia, NZ, UK, and anyone else with borders with China just to mention a few.

20 ( +26 / -6 )

Time to put an airfield on the Senkaku's and a base as well. Model it on the man made Chinese islands in the South China sea. This will give plenty of time to intercept the Chinese planes well away from Japanese airspace, and make Japan's ownership beyond China's ability to take them without attacking and invading. Such action would allow Japan to defend itself.

If China takes the islands while unmanned then it is not invasion, just theft.

31 ( +36 / -5 )

garymalmgren,

Apart from the Five-Eyes nations, all the democratic Southeast Asian nations currently victimized by China including Vietnam, India, etc. And France as well.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50336.htm

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/china-ladakh-indian-army-galwan-valley-need-to-be-close-to-our-friends-india-holds-naval-exercise-with-japan-amid-stand-off-with-china/story-clZK5EzU9TBfp1iVd7uJXN.html

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/07/14/national/politics-diplomacy/japan-france-sign-agreement-share-defense-supplies/

12 ( +18 / -6 )

CCP members will have no place to go and when the civil unrest begins in China, you know their heads will roll. 

I don't think you realize how many people are members of the CCP. It's quite a diverse group, and many people are members simply because it helps them get ahead in life. The are numerous factions within the CCP, some unhappy with Xi and his methods.

If heads roll, it may very well still be the CCP in charge afterwards, just with a different faction in power. In fact, I would say that's the most likely scenario.

22 ( +23 / -1 )

It amazes me with all the aggressive military actions, abe is still doing business with China.

He’s fast approaching legacy time, rather than being remembered for a mask no one wants to wear, man up and put distance between japan and China subtly, encourage companies to move factories away from China, start offering more tax breaks to companies to persuade them to set up in japan.

Don’t go back to courting Chinese tourists mr abe..

22 ( +24 / -2 )

The CCP could be collecting data as well. Remember the downing of the F-117A over Serbia? The Serbs couldn't target a stealth bomber so they observe, when, where planes would take off and how long it takes to reach certain waypoints etc. They monitored activities over months, finally, the missiles they fired were pure guesses based on months of observation.

IMHO, it's past time for being defensive with the Chinese and being predictable, it's time Japan makes them guess what Japan's next move is.

16 ( +18 / -2 )

Certainly need to put aerodrome nearer to the threat and build some sort of base, coast guard, lighthouse and small marine contingent possibly? Not overtly threatening but what is referred to as a glass screen, you break it and it’s a declaration of war, not just occupation of unoccupied land which they will scream is theirs anyway.

19 ( +19 / -0 )

Peter14 above has the right idea. Why waste a good 1/2 hr scrambling JASDF jets from Naha when the Japanese can just build airfields on Senkaku. If china can build their fake islands in Philipines waters, then Japan can build their bases on Senkaku.

18 ( +20 / -2 )

Certainly interesting times if you are in Asia.

Genuinely free Chinese are few and far between but that means jack when you have a compliant population of a billion I guess.

Culture is cool and all but in the end meaningless if you don't have freedom of both thought and movement (at the same time which is an important distinction).

11 ( +12 / -1 )

@WA4TKG

Send in the F-22’s and 35’s at ‘em

Japan doesn't have F-22. All Japan has to send is clunky old F-15.

@garymalmgren

Japan along with her allies better have their game plan ready

No other country recognize the Diaoyu Islands as Japanese territory.

@Peter14

Time to put an airfield on the Senkaku's and a base as well.

The Diaoyu Islands are off limit to Japanese civilian. Only a handful of Japanese government officials are allowed to land for survey purpose, but the islands are kept as off-limit to Japanese population to appease China.

@Wesley

Why waste a good 1/2 hr scrambling JASDF jets from Naha when the Japanese can just build airfields on Senkaku. 

The DIaoyu Islands are off-limit to Japanese population per Japanese government policy.

There isn't enough land to build a 2 km long airstrip necessary.
-13 ( +5 / -18 )

About the only thing our representative of the CCP on here got right is that there is no room to build a runway capable of handling modern fighter jets.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

This scrambling of jets by Japan and China are just for show.

It simply means the Senkaku/Diayu Islands are indeed disputed territories.

This is proven by the fact that neither parties dares to land their planes or helicopters or even parachute a single soldier to the isles.

So they just instead da-kine scramble their planes without ever accomplishing their

mission.

Meanwhile the true owner Taiwan is just cooly enjoying the show .

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Samit Basu

All Japan has to send is clunky old F-15.

The F15 is still very formidal, however Japan also has F35's.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

Everyone's claims to those uninhabited rocks is completely bogus. Therefore any war over them started by either side is completely bogus. They should be declared an unclaimable neutral zone ideally. But as there is no international norm for that, a second best solution is to hand them to Japanese ally Taiwan. Japan does not need them, and immediately Beijing will shut up as it considers Taiwan as part of China.

-13 ( +3 / -16 )

@Vanessa Carlisle

Everyone's claims to those uninhabited rocks is completely bogus.

The Diaoyu Islands formally belong to the Republic of China per terms of the Cairo/Potsdam declarations that Emperor Hirohito accepted to end the WW2. Hence it must be handed over to Taiwan.

@KORE NANI

however Japan also has F35's.

JASDF F-35 isn't deployed in Okinawa.

The F-35 is short-legged and is not suitable for intercept missions.
-11 ( +6 / -17 )

These Islands need to be developed on by Japan and Japan needs to take ownership.

11 ( +15 / -4 )

The Diaoyu Islands are off limit to Japanese civilian. Only a handful of Japanese government officials are allowed to land for survey purpose, but the islands are kept as off-limit to Japanese population to appease China.

The status of Japanese people landing on the Senkaku islands can be altered at any time by Japan.

You can bet that China already has detailed plans for construction and occupation of Senkaku Island, using the experience gained in the South China sea and the engineers who built those bases are now free and available. Japan may find itself waking up to news that the islands have been seized and occupied by Chinese troops and citizens constructing buildings and cementing their claim.

China is most likely waiting for relations to hit a low point with Japan before acting, or as a distraction to something else going on or about to go on.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

re Article: Japan is now immediately scrambling fighter jets against all Chinese military aircraft taking off from an air base in Fujian Province, as tensions continue between the two countries over the Senkaku Islands, government sources say.

The last 5 articles regarding the Senkakus, I posted why not build an outpost to prevent or take early measures against encroachment from a foreign country. My posts were constantly deleted as off topic by the mods though they were point blank in response to this very issue. Here we are again and the majority of the posts reflect what I and many other deleted posts referenced and recommended. Today there still isn't a plan and one can only add the expenses of jet upkeep, fuel costs and manning may have well come close to what is being spent currently. It was a great opportunity since Japan claims the Senkakus as theirs to administer, a tribunal came to a final ruling in favor of Japan and yet once again the Chinese do not adhere to rulings unless it is from the CCP, most recent HK. Now recently for about a month a Chinese research boat planted itself on an island that is well within Japanese waters and EEZ, yet no action to blow it out of the water by Japan as a defensive measure one of which they have every right since 1959. The current Abe administration has been too soft on China, makes me wonder what personal investments they have in backdoor deals. If I was a government official and the Senkakus are clearly Japans, then I would be building period after all China did despite all the grappling, the islands are there now and nothing can be done about it. So either Japan builds something starting by putting the national Japanese flag and assign a task force to it or China will just move in and Japan will do nothing, something that many are getting used to when it comes to China. This country only knows one thing, push push push. Political channels and more talking does nothing, historically they only know one thing: Force and they are not afraid to use it.

16 ( +16 / -0 )

F-15's are very capable fighters. They've shot down many Russian fighters piloted by other countries. Japanese pilots are good too. Go get 'em!

11 ( +14 / -3 )

The point of these activities surrounding the Senkaku’s is to force the US to show its hand. It is not meant to be a territorial fight and therefore it’ll never reach actual fighting. Will the US see this as an island dispute between China and Japan and not get involved or will it see this within the Anpo framework and respond to its call of duty to protect Japan? What good is having the Americans in Okinawa if the JSDF can take care of it on its own. China is attempting to mislead Japan into thinking it does not need the US and to rely on its own military which is what Abe and the conservatives desire. It is a move to allow Abe to legitimize amending the Constitution.

Even with the Anpo the US military is not going to act on island disputes such as the Takeshima island dispute with South Korea. It remains to be seen however in regards to the Senkakaku’s. It doesn’t matter who said what and what they’ll do. Now that they’re flying nearer and eventually over the islands it’ll reach a point where the US must show its stance and respond. And when that is shown, China will have reach its goal on verifying the US stance. That is all it is.

In a game of hearts, you keep playing spades to flush out the Queen of Spades. China is playing spades to see who has the Queen sort of speak and how Japan and the US will respond. The Queen doesn’t actually need to be forced out (war over the Senkaku’s) there’s a point in the game where it’ll be clear who has the Queen. This allows China to play future cards to continue to try and drive a wedge between Japan the US.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Vanessa Carlisle: Everyone's claims to those uninhabited rocks is completely bogus.

Nearly every war fought in the history of the world was based on "bogus" claims. It has never been a deterrent before, and it won't be this time.

As for the argument about Japan's ASDF having the capability to defend Japan, I don't think that's even a matter of consideration. The first Japanese fighter that gets shot down will have the US military backing the ASDF with everything they've got, which is substantial. (Well, a little less so now that the USS Bonhomme Richard is a burning hulk of scrap metal in San Diego harbor. Wouldn't be at all surprised to find out China had a hand in that little Naval fiasco).

12 ( +12 / -0 )

"There isn't enough land to build a 2 km long airstrip necessary."

1) Have you ever heard of the F-35B?

2) Land reclamation?

You must know about the second, at least; China's doing it consistently.

Japan doesn't need to place anything on the Senkakus.

All they've got to do is move their planes to Ishigaki; end of the story.

I know a Japanese naval officer who "whispered" into my ears an almost open "secret"; if China was to invade they would be met by Soryu subs, lurking all over the area.

China is not that stupid; they know extremely well that Japan's navy is not the Philippines.

There is no available land border crossing for China's millions.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

Abe should as Trump for a permission to build an airstrip on those islands..

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

China do not need, what is not theirs. what are JAPANESE politicians thinking???.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

The Diaoyu Islands formally belong to the Republic of China per terms of the Cairo/Potsdam declarations that Emperor Hirohito accepted to end the WW2.

Incorrect

There isn't enough land to build a 2 km long airstrip necessary.

Land reclamation and/or F-35B

The DIaoyu Islands are off-limit to Japanese population per Japanese government policy.

Like stated the islands are off limits to ordinary Japanese due it’s a government policy which can be changed anytime. On the other hand the islands are off limits to the Chinese because the are covered by the US defense treaty as part of Japanese territory which covers a foreign landing.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

"So either Japan builds something starting by putting the national Japanese flag"

There are already 2 lighthouses on the Senkakus.

They've been there for donkeys and are regularly maintained by the Japanese Coast Guard.

The Hinomaru is planted on the Senkakus too.

It's amazing that posters commenting think that the Islands are bereft of everything, except birds.

Why not do a little "research" first?

Japan is in control and will carry on as usual.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

@Samit Basu

Here is the problem with all the claims by China and Taiwan the USA retained those islands along with Okinawa until they were returned To Japan with Okinawa. If the treaty had given them to China the USA would have let Taiwan have them from the start

3 ( +4 / -1 )

When Biden becomes President, everything will be fine - the US will once again kiss the butt of China, and Japan will be subject to criticism for being aggressive within the region... everything will be back to normal.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Japan will be subject to criticism for being aggressive within the region...

This makes no sense at all.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

This is another reason why the US will always be here and never leave Japan.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

America will only be here has long as Japan and the Japanese wants it to be here.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

America can not demand to be here and also demand a greater payment from the country.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

China, Japan, Korea, and their allies (US) should work together to keep peace in the region.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

No use scrambling jets, PULL businesses away from China! Too bad most corporations prefer to go after the Chinese market carrot than their own nation's interests.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

America will only be here has long as Japan and the Japanese wants it to be here.

That is completely naive. The Japanese bureaucrats and "powers that be" may want them here, but the Okinawans and I believe most Japanese do not. But it doesn't matter. The U.S. neo-imperialist power brokers are only going to let go of Japan if and when Japan ceases to be of strategic importance, like the Philippines did.

Looking at a map one can clearly see that the closest, base-worthy part of Japan to China is Okinawa. Its obvious why that is where the U.S. power brokers concentrate the forces there.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

There we go again; deciding what Okinawans want for themselves

“but the Okinawans and I believe most Japanese do not”

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The blatant arrogance of the Chinese government and it’s provoking actions are simply outrageous.

Japan in this case did the right think in standing their ground to protect their own territories and rights.

Chinese madness should be put to an end.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's amazing that posters commenting think that the Islands are bereft of everything, except birds.

What is amazing is people thinking some token facilities truly count. Also amazing is that there is silence when Japan claims huge chunks of ocean building artificial islands (Okinotorishimal) but when China does its nothing but whine and complain.

None of the expansion that Japan did during and prior to WW2 was legitimate and that includes the Senakakus, which are more rightly called "Diaoyu". Face it, that name is older and coming up with a new name exposes the lie of the whole thing. Not that I am saying China has legitimate claim. Far from it. The rocks are not claimable by anyone. They just don't meet the criteria.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

kiboushaToday  09:29 pm JST

No use scrambling jets, PULL businesses away from China! Too bad most corporations prefer to go after the Chinese market carrot than their own nation's interests.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-18/japan-to-pay-at-least-536-million-for-companies-to-leave-china

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"America can not demand to be here and also demand a greater payment from the country." True @zichi but as soon as the orange bone spur is gone that will stop.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

JASDF F-35 isn't deployed in Okinawa.

The F-35 is short-legged and is not suitable for intercept missions.

... and doesn't work in the rain...

0 ( +1 / -1 )

1.) Seems like a waste of time to be arguing over these islands. The nations involved could agree that any resource exploration and development that might take place in the future can only take place with combined units, so that no one nation gets to own any future mineral rights.

2.) The F35 has a combat radius of 1100 km without external fuel tanks.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

This is an opportunity to hit 2 birds with one stone.

Because of this US base issue in Okinawa, which is causing infighting.

Why not just stick the base on one of the Senkaku islands?

If China attacks, the US and SDF will have no choice but to retaliate.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

America will only be here has long as Japan and the Japanese wants it to be here

And that will be for a very, very, very long time.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

America can not demand to be here and also demand a greater payment from the country

Japan could also change article 9 and it hasn’t and it won’t for the next foreseeable future, so the can put some.....persuading requests in if the Japanese want our protection. Again, not going to change in our lifetime probably.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Japan does not need to change Article 9 to terminate agreement with America on its presence here. America is here at the request of Japan.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Japan needs to think out of the box... Just reclaim land around Senkaku like the Chinese did in the Paracels, build a base and move the US Marines from Futenma there. The Japanese were able to build KIX in Osaka on reclaimed land. Kill two birds with one stone.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

China is dumb to try and bully ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE of its neighbours...

India, Vietnam, Taiwan, the Philippines and Japan plus the US and Australia together would absolutely smash China to pieces and the CCP knows it. The CCP plays these little games of antagonising each neighbour individually to keep it small scale but they're all starting to team up and put it back in its (overstretched) box. The only countries that are going to be able to help the CCP immediately are Russia, Pakistan and North Korea, who aren't exactly the most stellar of nations themselves. China's allies have their own legitimate grieves with other countries to a certain extent, but they aren't angels themselves either and can't really claim the moral high ground.

The only way to deal with this is to be more proactive on the borders, move production out of China, and show that values trump economics

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Japan does not need to change Article 9 to terminate agreement with America on its presence here. America is here at the request of Japan.

But they won’t, not now and not in the foreseeable future.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

China is dumb to try and bully ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE of its neighbours...

India, Vietnam, Taiwan, the Philippines and Japan plus the US and Australia together would absolutely smash China to pieces and the CCP knows it. The CCP plays these little games of antagonising each neighbour individually to keep it small scale but they're all starting to team up and put it back in its (overstretched) box. The only countries that are going to be able to help the CCP immediately are Russia, Pakistan and North Korea, who aren't exactly the most stellar of nations themselves. China's allies have their own legitimate grieves with other countries to a certain extent, but they aren't angels themselves either and can't really claim the moral high ground.

The only way to deal with this is to be more proactive on the borders, move production out of China, and show that values trump economics

I agree, well said.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"What is amazing is people thinking some token facilities truly count."

Well, they do.

It's even more amazing that you think that they don't because you think so.

A little delight for your eyes; Senkakus in 1910.

The old bonito factory is still there.

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands#/media/File:Senkaku_bonito.jpg"

China is attempting a "new normal" that's not working.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Next year Britain will send its new aircraft carrier into the China Sea on a mission with America, who will also be on board.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@ quercetumToday  07:48 pm JST

The point of these activities surrounding the Senkaku’s is to force the US to show its hand. It is not meant to be a territorial fight and therefore it’ll never reach actual fighting. Will the US see this as an island dispute between China and Japan and not get involved or will it see this within the Anpo framework and respond to its call of duty to protect Japan? What good is having the Americans in Okinawa if the JSDF can take care of it on its own. China is attempting to mislead Japan into thinking it does not need the US and to rely on its own military which is what Abe and the conservatives desire. It is a move to allow Abe to legitimize amending the Constitution.

What hand does the US need to show or prove that it already has done in other parts of the world, surely not military might it's ludicrous to even go there. I have to disagree concerning territorial fight else China never would have attempted the recent attack and build that occurred in India, kept the signed agreement with the UK concerning HK and of course Tibet, and many others. The US will protect Japan but we all know what happened in 311 when the great earthquake/tsunami, US forces were at the ready within 30 minutes to conduct life and rescue but the admin of Khan (anti US) instead did the latter and told the US to stand down. hmm. If the GOJ says you got the go, US will not hesitate and China and Russia know this very well. This is beyond territorial. JSDF does not the man power of 1940's to defend itself fully hence the US is an main ally. Your point about misleading is so far from reality and that is unfortunate considering that China is now at Japan's doorstep and it is knocking. There is no need for a change to the Constitution when it comes to defense in the best interests of Japan. The threat is very real diplomatically, economically and now militarily. Don't forget it has been China who has been the aggressor while everyone else keeps peace and only wants business. I have yet to hear Japan nor any other neighboring country venture into Chinese EEZ or claim gobs of land or water not theirs. I didn't see any air drops near Russia, SK, China, Phillipines, etc did you? Did anyone?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The F15 is still very formidal, however Japan also has F35's.

The F-15J isn't a match for the J-11. The J-11 has much longer range missiles, so the Japanese F-15s would be in the water 50 miles before they can launch against the J-11s.

An F-35 isn't an Air Superiority fighter. The J-11 is the 2nd-tier for Chinese AS fighters. They have J-20s too. Fortunately, the stealth for the J-20s isn't invisible to radar.

So basically, these first Japanese jets are there just to see how far China is willing to go. If China decides to start shooting, "splash 4" will be heard over the radio, but in Chinese, I'm afraid to say. Hopefully, the F-15 pilots would have launched their missiles just before being hit and the stand-alone capabilities are sufficient to fly true. I'm not convinced about that.

When that first Japanese plane goes down, then the American's in F-22s will be scrambled and more will be sent to Japan. Who will win between the F-22 and J-20? America has much more current combat experience and excellent training for all their fighter pilots. The F-22 probably has an advantage, but due to limited numbers available in the world, those advantages may not be sufficient if the events aren't limited.

Here's hoping that China doesn't want to start a shooting war over Senkaku. There would be much puckering on 2 continents and 1 island should that happen.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The old bonito factory is still there.

Yeah. Long empty and derelict. Going back to 1910? You have no leg to stand on.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

China took and built phantom islands in the SCS.

At will.

A question to all Chinese adepts:

Why are they not doing the same in the Senkakus then?

After all, many of you think that the place is just there, unguarded and Japan is at China's mercy.

That's the puzzle that not one of you want to clarify.

Japan's navy was built to deal with the Soviet navy. Even the Americans recognize their capability.

They would have China's for breakfast.

Again:

Why is China simply not landing and taking over the Senkakus, if it's that easy?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

America benefits from having forces in Japan as much as the Japanese do. It is a mutual defense deal. We are not doing the Japanese a favor by being here. If there is a fight with China we will fight together.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Just for perspective:

The Japanese navy is bigger and stronger than the combined forces of the British and French navies.

China shouldn't even think, let alone try it.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

There are F-22's in Japan and I believe they can be used to counter possible Chinese aggression. The Chinese try to bully their neighbors. This is what the article is all about... Japan sending fighters to intercept Chinese when they intrude into Japanese air space.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan really needs to look at more practical options, for example why not use drone tech? Turkey, Israel, and of course the U.S. offer some very good options. They could be used for these intercept mission quite easily, with more numbers, and less expensively, with no chance of loss of life. Japan could have the high ground easily, and there would be nothing China could do about it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"The F-35 is short-legged and is not suitable for intercept missions"

Not really. Combat range is stated to be 1400 km for air intercept missions using internal fuel and internal weapons only (6 AMRAAM with the "Sidekick" modification and two AIM-9X). If stealth is not a consideration the F-35 can carry external fuel tanks on the inboard wing stations and two more AMRAAMs on each outboard wing station. The VSTOL F-35B gives up fuel for the ability to take off and land vertically (and before someone says it I have seen F-35s take off vertically) allowing them to operate closer to the front lines than other versions. Combat range of the hoary old F-4 Phantom was only about 680km and you never heard anyone whining about the old "Flying Anvil", aka "the worlds largest distributor of MiG parts" or as the Luftwaffe called it "the Air Defense Diesel" being short legged. It was revered in its day and rightly so. Beginning in 2023 the next block of F-35s will have several improvements including more fuel. Regardless of range the F-35s low observable features should give allow it to get the first shot off without being detected.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Set up an air base on the rock identical to the one China is building in the south sea. That will force China to either put up or shut up. Cat and mouse game must end at some point.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"The Japanese navy is bigger and stronger than the combined forces of the British and French navies."

In some regards this may be true. Hull count favors the JMSDF and in terms of quality the JMSDF is better than any European navy and better than the PLAN. I have seen PLAN and JMSDF up close. The Japanens are pros in every way. The Chinese haven't fought a naval war in modern times and their last occasion against the Royal Navy centuries ago didn't turn out well for them. You can see the lack of experience in their equipment. However Japan has no true aircraft carriers so once beyond the range of JASDF F-15Js the JMSDF has no organic air cover and are thus very vulnerable to attack. Converting Izumo and Kaga to a VSTOL configuration only partially solves this problem. Their air wings are too small. One USN CVN has an air wing stronger than many nation's air force and would be increased in size during a war with reserve and Marine Corps squadrons. The JMSDF needs bigger ships closer in size to the two new Queen Elizabeth class CVFs in the Royal Navy. Japan also lacks the large multi-product replenishment ships other major navies have to keep their ships supplied and in combat for extended periods of time. Japan's replenishment ships are too small and too few. The JMSDF lacks long range anti-ship missiles and long range land attack missiles.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"Why are they not doing the same in the Senkakus then?"

China built it's man-made island bases on shallow spots in the South China Sea, primarily submerged reefs. They had an extended area of flat land just beneath the waves on which to build. The Senkakus are mostly right on the edge of steep canyons, really just mountain tops extending above the water. Second, the Chinese islands might not survive. Building on a living thing like a coral reef isn't stable. As the coral dies it collapses, undermining whatever is above. Another on-line publication, "Diplomacy" has reported sections of these Chinese islands have collapsed into the ocean already requiring emergency dredging and repairs. We'll see how long they last. One good typhoon might be all that is needed to tear one or more apart.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Just fly a lot of drones in the area where they fly over and watch the hilarity ensue

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"The F-15J isn't a match for the J-11. The J-11 has much longer range missiles, so the Japanese F-15s would be in the water 50 miles before they can launch against the J-11s."

It isn't that simple. The Indian Air Force brings their SU-30MKIs to Red Flag exercises at Nellis AFB every year. Their Flankers are arguably superior, on paper, to the J-11 and J-15. However at Red Flag they do not dominate USAF F-15s as you might suppose. At a certain point tactics and training become more important than the paper performance of particular fighter aircraft. US tactical jet pilots fly a lot more than their counterparts in other military's and most of their flying is tactical. That proficiency give them an edge in any aircraft. A lot of American allies fly notionally better versions of the F-15 than the USAF does but the US pilots don't get walked on at Red Flag or similar exercises.

Likewise don't always believe what you see written about Russian weapons. The US Navy back in the 1990s bought a big batch of Russian Kh-30 Krypton missiles converted for use as targets. They were called MA-30. They never were able to meet the performance numbers the Russians claimed. They could hit the top speed but only at 40,000 feet. The US already has something faster as a high altitude target, AQM-37. Down on the deck where the US Navy wanted them to fly to simulate supersonic sea skimming missiles they were slow. Their radar altimeters didn't work very well down low so they could not fly as low as the US Navy wanted them to. If they tried to fly as low as the US Navy needed they would hit the water. And at low altitude their range was only 11 nautical miles. The Russian missile racks were adapted to the F/A-18 but had to be removed. They were unsafe by US standards so a US launcher was modified for the Russian missile. The US Navy and Boeing had some ideas to increase the range and replace the Russian radar altimeter with a US model but those never went forward. They went with something else instead, modifying old Talos missles as MQM-8 Vandal targets (great big telephone pole of a missile but it could go Mach 2.5 at wave top heights) and eventually developing GQM-163 Coyote.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If someone could find the chinese Propaganda video of what they did on the sandbars out SW of Taiwan, it just may show these Arm Chair Generals what the “Agressors” have ALREADY DONE.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Why are they not doing the same in the Senkakus then?"

Meaning:

Why haven't they invaded the Senkakus then?

Everyone seems to think it's as easy as taking candy from a baby.

Then, why has China not done so?

My initial question has got nothing to do with land reclamation in shallow/deep waters.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

And finally, not so far into a conventional fight if it involved all the players, would come the nuclear exchange. That might throw a wrench into theories about which weapon and aircraft is superior. It also might be what gives everyone pause.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

theFu

Here's hoping that China doesn't want to start a shooting war over Senkaku. There would be much puckering on 2 continents and 1 island should that happen.

I do not see them interested in a shooting war. These constant airplane intrusions are just an annoyance tactic to wear down the Japanese. The CCP is doing the same with Taiwan.

What I realistically fear is that if the Japanese side does not pay attention, we will one day wake up with a Chinese military presence on the Senkakus, and then what?

Afaik, Japan should establish feet on the ground on the Senkakus first.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

In the meantime our Dear Leaser has wasted 7 years of being PM pushing for a constitutional change when he's doing now what is necessary to protect his nation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

We should all start boycotting Chinese firms in Japan like Huawei, Avepoint, ZTE.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

"I have yet to hear Japan nor any other neighboring country venture into Chinese EEZ or claim gobs of land or water not theirs. I didn't see any air drops near Russia, SK, China, Phillipines, etc did you? Did anyone"

Why just today the Chinese accused Japanese fishing boats operating off the Senkaku Islands of fishing in China's EEZ. I couldn't make that up. Back in June 2013 an Indian Navy landing ship a measly 45 nautical miles off the Vietnamese coast transiting from Nha Trang to Haiphong for courtesy visits was accosted by a Chinese combat ship and told to leave China's "territorial waters"

EEZs may be transited by any nation's ships. An EEZ only gives the coastal nation the right to control fishing, mineral extraction and other commercial activities off its coast within the boundaries of the EEZ. They are not territorial waters. Those end 12 nm from shore. The Chinese try to claim EEZs are territorial waters and make a big fuss whenever the US Navy sails through their EEZ, which the US does regularly as an exercise in freedom of navigation. If nations give in to China's ridiculous demands they become fait accompli.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"I do not see them interested in a shooting war. These constant airplane intrusions are just an annoyance tactic to wear down the Japanese. The CCP is doing the same with Taiwan."

They are looking at response times, tactics and probably trying to see if there are gaps in radar coverage to exploit. They are also probably recording all electronic emissions to determine the Japanese electronic order of battle. For the Japanese I'm sure it's a case of needing to respond but not giving away too much when they do. Save some surprises in case there is an exchange of fire. Oh, and they are studying the Chinese just as intently looking for weaknesses. The US too.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

"We should all start boycotting Chinese firms in Japan like Huawei, Avepoint, ZTE."

Everyone everywhere should boycott Chinese products. I do so already to the maximum extent possible. My wife however is less ardent. Sigh.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Dessert Tortoise: Probing E.O.B. of course. I enjoy your posts.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just for perspective:

The Japanese navy is bigger and stronger than the combined forces of the British and French navies.

The Japanese navy may be bigger than the combined British and French navies however it is not stronger. Both British and French navies have nuclear subs armed with sub launched nuclear ICBM's. The "strength" remains in favor of the British and French navies.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

The USA military will not allow this inclusion to continue. if China continues to make hostile maneuvers then the USA will eliminate that threat. EOS

0 ( +1 / -1 )

This is "Sports"! The daily sports between China and Japan! Because they were "Friendnemies"!

What do you want your airforce pilots doing at peacetime, do you want them sitting on a bench eating donuts? NO! Of course not! The airforce pilots were trained to carry out active engagement!  China is training the Japanese pilots doing their defensive duties and Japan is trained the Chinese pilots doing their offensive duties! This is a daily drill, maybe carrying out once a day or twice a day!  Russian pilots also do this over US or Nato countries! Very normal and very reasonable!

This is a good thing!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

For the sake of an argument, let's say China land on and formally occupy those Islands. Refuse to leave.

What happens next?

Go.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

China shouldn't even think, let alone try it.

People are underestimating China's military, they dont have many aircraft carriers but they do have very good missile technology, they also make up for the lack of carriers with smaller missile frigates, future naval battles will be found with naval surface to surface missiles. China can letterle launch 100s of missiles at Naval targets over the horizon. No military in the world can intercept and destroy that many targets coming in atsupersonic speed. would China win the next naval battle, maybe maybe not but itll sure inflict large damage to on any naval fleet that challenges them. If there was a future war between China USA it wouldnt be nuclear, that would be MAD, but just imaging the CCP mandating all factories manufacture weapons to fight that future war that's 500 million workers working 24/7 making bombs missiles ships. Think of the America military complex during WW2 x 10

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tamarama Today 03:38 pm JST

For the sake of an argument, let's say China land on and formally occupy those Islands. Refuse to leave.

What happens next?

Go.

I am afraid in that case the J government would complain but do nothing. Remember, this is how CCP China stole the Paracel islands from Vietnam and the Fiery Reef island from the Philippines. And that is what the CCP is doing in Ladakh on the Indian border. Which is why India, unlike Japan, keeps military feet on the ground in the area. Once established, it is big decision to forcefully remove such a presence.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

re: Why just today the Chinese accused Japanese fishing boats operating off the Senkaku Islands of fishing in China's EEZ.

Yes I read the article but seriously its' pretty hard to take any claims from China seriously as if they could the would just claim all of Asia and part of the rest of the world theirs. There have been comments from some inside the CCP claiming the America's themselves are Chinese lands.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

"People are underestimating China's military, they dont have many aircraft carriers but they do have very good missile technology, they also make up for the lack of carriers with smaller missile frigates, future naval battles will be found with naval surface to surface missiles. China can letterle launch 100s of missiles at Naval targets over the horizon. No military in the world can intercept and destroy that many targets coming in atsupersonic speed. would China win the next naval battle, maybe maybe not but itll sure inflict large damage to on any naval fleet that challenges them. If there was a future war between China USA it wouldnt be nuclear, that would be MAD, but just imaging the CCP mandating all factories manufacture weapons to fight that future war that's 500 million workers working 24/7 making bombs missiles ships. Think of the America military complex during WW2 x 10"

Something to ponder. The Chinese might launch 100 missiles at an opposing naval force but a lot of them will not find targets even if they are not shot at. The longer the range of the missile the more this is true. Ships move. Some of them move quite fast. You would be surprised I think how fast some big destroyers and aircraft carriers are. A missile's target will be some distance from where it was when the missile was launched. Missile flyout times can be as long as an hour for the really long range missiles and those need something that can see the enemy navy and provide the missiles with mid course guidance. Gyros precess. GPS or the Chinese equivalent can be jammed, reducing their accuracy. When the missile arrives close enough to where it thinks the enemy ship is and turns its sensors on, will it find anything? And surprisingly the faster missiles have a harder time finding a target because of their speed. That high speed looks impressive on paper, but it severely compresses the time the missiles seeker has to scan the target area, classify all the ships in front of it (because you don't want to waste missiles on neutral shipping in the crowded waters of the South China Sea or Straits of Malacca) , choose a target and maneuver to hit it. Regardless of how fast a missile is flying, the detection range of the best sensor is fixed. If a missile traveling at mach 0.8 has a certain number of seconds to perform these tasks (scan, classify, target, maneuver, hit target), a missile traveling at mach 2.4 has only 1/3 the time. Can that eye watering screamer reliably hit a target? Can it even find one when it has so little time to scan for a target? Not questions anyone can answer in an open forum but I think the fact that western navies have so far stuck to subsonic cruise missiles says something. For the subsonic missiles you have to fire a hundred because most will be shot down on the way in or the ships simply steamed out of range of their sensors and they never find anything to hit. With the supersonic screamers fewer will be shot down but more will miss the target. Either way you have to shoot 100 missiles but the supersonic screamers are much more expensive. A navy can afford more missiles (and bigger salvos) buying subsonic missiles. As for the ability of the US Navy to handle 100 incoming missiles? I don't know but I'm sure the US models that in war games. You don't have to shoot them all down. Electronic warfare can do amazing things. The little Israeli Navy had upwards of 45-50 Egyptian or Syrian missiles fired at groups of 6 Israeli patrol craft in two separate engagements during the 1973 war and none hit their target. All were spoofed by Israeli jamming and fell harmlessly in the sea. The US Navy similarly spoofed a number of Iranian missiles shot at US ships during Operation Praying Mantis. No CIWS were fired, all were defeated by jamming. Both navies had a lot of missiles in the air during that engagement. The best thing to do is sink or shoot down the missile platform before it can shoot its missiles. That solves a lot of problems. The longer range missiles will not find targets without mid course guidance from an aircraft, ship or maybe a satellite. Shoot that down or jam it electronically and they can't find you. That was the plan way back during the Cold War when I flew, get the Backfires and Blackjacks before they could launch at you, and I assume is still valid today. After the Cold War there was a brief time when the US could talk to the former Soviet military on more or less friendly terms (before Putin came to power) and the Russians said they considered attacking a US carrier battle group to be a suicide mission. Count how many VLS cells are in a typical carrier strike group and consider many VLS cells are quad packed with four ESSMs. Then assume ten AMRAAM per Super Hornet. Attacking a US carrier strike group isn't all that easy to do. It's a meat grinder for an enemy. Deliberately so.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The USA military will not allow this inclusion to continue. if China continues to make hostile maneuvers then the USA will eliminate that threat. EOS

There is no US support for a shooting war over islands with no population. I doubt any of the very limited F-22s in Japan will be scrambled to meet any Chinese repeated incursion.

At a Red Flag in 2004, the US F-15c lost 9:1 against the SU-30 flown by India. Ref: https://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/ There were a number of artificial limitations placed on both sides.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The CCP is probably dumping Covid-19 droplets. So send in the US military from Okinawa since they already have it. I mean, what else are they good for?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Most commenting here seem to "forget" that China's 2 million army will be powerless in any sea/air battle necessary to overtake Japan. Or is it they don't know that the Chinese infantry cannot swim all across the Pacific to the Senkakus?

China hasn't taken the Senkakus because they know what's expecting them.

"The main component of the MSDF are its fleet of forty-six destroyers and frigates—more than that those fielded by the United Kingdom and France combined. Organized into escort flotillas, Japan’s tin-can navy is designed to defend the country from invasion, help retake Japanese territory and keep the sea-lanes open."

"It is, ship for ship, the best navy in Asia."

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/does-japan-still-have-finest-navy-entire-pacific-118051

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Nobody needs a war, and certainly both sides could kills lots of people, but there is no advantage in doing so. The fight over islands is also a fight over control of waterways and shipping. A country can claim so many nautical miles out from an island it owns, so owning the right batch of water real estate allows it to legally control passage in and out of certain areas. Exerting influence over a waterway is not as good as owning it, but it helps, to the extent it can be done, so claiming islands, building things on them, etc. is the game plan. China is hoping to strongly annoy but not start a battle, I think. A real battle wouldn't be helpful for anyone. The US is annoying China, meanwhile, but not in a very productive way. Japan can't really depend on the US to have its back at this point, at least it doesn't seem that way to me. Still Japan can't let itself be pushed too far, so ... scrambling jets registers a protest, though iit uses a lot of gas.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

China is a bully. Period.

And with its one-child policy, it raised an entire generation of self-entitled "Little Emperors."

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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