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Japan protests to France over military sales to China

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Oh dear, will they (the Japanese) be renaming French toast ,' Freedom toast' and pouring French wine into the gutter ?

0 ( +10 / -10 )

Leave it to the French to sell military equipment to the country that has declared 'it's intent to replace the US Navy as the dominant strategic power in the Pacific.

4 ( +16 / -12 )

Sounds like a nice business deal to me... at least for the French.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Leave it to the French to sell military equipment to the country that has declared 'it's intent to replace the US Navy as the dominant strategic power in the Pacific.

Explain to me why it's any more right or desirable that the US is the dominant strategic power than China.

-5 ( +8 / -13 )

OH, JP has a fewd with China, world please stop trading with China. Right. Then, JP stop selling Toyotas to Africa because Terrorists use them as military vehicles. Non-sense.

-1 ( +9 / -10 )

Fugacis... Is the US an aggressor in the Pacific? Has it ever been? Can you give the same answer regarding China?

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Does anyone really expect any ethics to military sales of any kind?

3 ( +7 / -4 )

The US has pursued a policy of imperialism and neo-colonialism since at least the turn of the 20th Century. It colonised the Philippines and Panama, it attacked the Soviet Union, it interfered in Vietnam, and it bombed Laos and Cambodia, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Elsewhere in the world, it invaded Iraq with no provocation whatsoever, and has needlessly prolonged the warfare there; it has used drone strikes in northern Pakistan that have killed upwards of 2000 civilians; it has used assassinations and targeted killing in violation of international law; and it has facilitated Israel's aggressive land grabs against Palestinians.

It has propped up dictatorships in lieu of democratically elected governments, as in Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Chile; it has used foreign countries as proxy battlefields with the Soviet Union; and it has oppressed the economies of many countries in South America with monopolistic corporations such as the United Fruit Company.

This is to say nothing of its brandishing of nuclear weapons and generally obscenely aggressive foreign policy.

In comparison, China has been belligerent over a handful of disputed slivers of land, most of which aren't even populated. Now do you see why I roll my eyes whenever people like Ossan give me their Cold War-esque hysteria, hypocrisy and American exceptionalism?

-4 ( +11 / -15 )

The Japanese complain about French arms sales at the same time as the LDP are trying to lift Japan's ban on arms exports.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Strange assumption here, that China does not already have similar technologies? Stranger assumption: That the West has intellectual superiority? That the vast Asian intelligentsia, now well financed, and moving at computer speeds, and ever growing in size, and larger by many magnitudes than Western intelligentsia, is not working very hard in many directions to resolve world problems, Asian problems, and Chinese problems? Intelligence, genius, creativity, belong to humanity - not whites alone, not French not Americans, Canadians, however, have a health care edge, and the world's best schools, but share this with the world. Japan can so build new Thorium reactors, safer, cleaner cheaper! Japan can so co-operate within the Global Village and hold her own intellectually, and otherwise. With a failing America a falling American dollar, and a rising Pan Eurasian Empire, Japan can be well placed or a distant "long supply line" away, friend of only America?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Does China always protest to USA for over military sales to Japan?

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Weak Japan.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Too late. They will make 10000 copies of these equipments now.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

The French have every right to sale to whoever they want to. Merci!

2 ( +10 / -8 )

Fugais, in contrast, China has imprisoned and shot people speaking freely, rolled tanks over peaceful protesters, and invaded Tibet and called it home, among others. China has a long history of taking things from others by force. The U.S. has not, or we would have states all around the world where we have helped to fight off the invaders of other countries.

The U.S. doesn't colonize countries. My understanding is that the Philippians and Panama were colonized by the Spanish. Yes, we kept Guam after WWII, but that is the only territory, outside of American Indians (of which I am one), where the U.S. had taken territory from another country or people. In Guam's case, the people want the U.S. there because we bring jobs. If Guam wanted the U.S. out, they could easily kick us out. However, they chose to be a U.S. territory.

Iraq invaded an ally, Kuwait, to steal their oil and increase purchases of Chinese arms to threaten its neighbors. The second Iraq war was stupid, but the invasion was, although based on false intelligence provided by Curveball (Chaliabi), to stop weapons of mass destruction that the security council stated Iraq could not be in possession of because Iraq used them against their own people and were a danger to its neighbors. Iraq played a game to make it seem like they had weapons of mass destruction to make themselves appear stronger than they were. It backfired on everyone.

Vietnam and Korea were really proxy wars between China and the U.S. with both sides trying to stop countries becoming democratic or communist.

The U.S. has never attacked Russia. American's brandish nuclear weapons because of communist countries like Russia and China that do not answer to their citizens and have a history of conquest.

The drone strikes in North Waziristan have not killed 2,000 civilians. In fact, the drone's saved the U.S. from the alternative, marching U.S. troops into the territory to combat terrorists who are bent on attacking the U.S. Newflash, the U.S. has been at war with countryless jihadis who are intent on killing westerners. Their justifications for attacking the U.S. differs from day to day and range from the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia (because SA was afraid of Iraq and Iran) and U.S. support for Israel. However, what they really have problems with is U.S. culture not being their strict Sharia law. Oh, and McDonalds and other things that are very popular in the West that show non-Islamic people (i.e., godless people) as having more power than them.

The U.S. has propped up dictatorships in otherwise democratic countries, and it is a bad history. However, I feel that type of American involvement is slowly fading as information becomes easier to get because of the internet.

At least in the U.S., we can hear about these things because of the freedom of the press and freedom of speech and make more informed decisions as voters to change those policies. Without these freedoms, a country can do what ever it wants to others and its people, e.g., China, and will never have to answer to anyone.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Japan itself is selling equipment to China which can be used (or modified) as weapon ... An acquaintance of mine is working in one of those companies. But I guess we won't hear about those Japanese companies...

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Giving China advanced weapons of any kind is just like giving a pack of monkeys matches and dynamite to play with.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

"MoonrakerMar. 19, 2013 - 09:25AM JST

Does anyone really expect any ethics to military sales of any kind?"

Well, yes. Because France, as a member of the EU, agreed not to sell advanced weapons to China.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Can't have your cake and eat it too, Japan. You want to bolster your defense, expect others to do the same.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

I think you missed the point, A Realist. Selling arms is about dealing in death no matter how it is dressed up, whether to friend or as deterrent or as keeping agreement with a group of similar hypocrites. It cannot be ethical.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Japan has to shut up for France export business. If Japan sell military hardware to Australia, France will not complain about it. As a pacifist nation before, Japan was not interested in exporting military tech. Now Japan is ready for competing world wide military markets gradually.

PRC market is irresistible. They are not only buying military goods but also french wine, cheese, cosmetic and Air Bus. Recovering from economic woes needed the large export market like China.

Japan is the land of setting Sun. China is the land of making money.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

And the problem is what? A French businesss sales helicopter landing equipment to a customer. Maybe not the 'right' thing to do, but business is business.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I wonder what the French would do? "Sorry, we'll cancel those contracts right away, pls keep buying our wine". I think the French will give the same responce as the Americans when China protest about US selling arms to Taiwan. "Take no notice"

viking68: I think you might be taking the extreme perception, if you replace China with the word America in your comment, it still applies. Only that the America regime does this to people in other countries.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

The equipment is a large, perforated steel plate that gives purchase to a grappling hook sent out by the helicopter, which can then use the guideline to draw itself down to the deck.

sounds like hi tech stuff

2 ( +3 / -1 )

OMG, J government expressed opinions !!!! How dare they ?

They should never say anything to any other country ever, otherwise you will get a bunch of condescending posts on JapanToday LOL

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Tiger, I know many things apply to both China and America, like each country creating boogie men of the other country to justify a nuclear arms race.

Still, America does not roll tanks over its own citizens and has not (since early America with Indians) taken other's land.

Tibet is too recent history to ignore and there are signs that China is moving all over the Asia Pacific to claim land by force and intimidation, rather than by rule of law. Modern America (the last 150+ years) has not done this.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

To protest means to set an enemy of China. What about the will of good relationship that Abe claimed?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Seems more than a few posters on this thred would rather communist China be the ruling hegemon. Yes, the same China that killed more Chinese citizens than the Japanese imperial troops did...far more.

It's only natural that these same posters would not understand why a democracy would protest another democracy selling military gear to communist China.

Just imagine, you Chinese sympathizers, how good your lives would be under Chinese communism.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

^ Ah employing argumentum ad hominem I see. Also sensing that a slippery slope fallacy is in motion...So France allows China to buy a few helicopter landing pads, and you expect that the rest of the world will soon be under China's rule?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

to jpn...cry??

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The western world were never unified in front of the 'Chinese market temptations'! and if Japan believes her democracy allies might come up and help, here is what is real!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"China's underdeveloped helicopter landing technology"

Maybe if the Chinese would spend less time trying to duplicate Apple products, and concentrate on developing their helicopter landing technology...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I am more interested in why PRC did not develop their own version of a "Bear Trap" which is rudimentary in design. It's basically a powered wench so to pull in a helicopter in bad weather.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Helicopters are not particularly warfare, they are vehicles. Those used to rescue people from disasters also need platforms to land. OK, Chinese army may use them. They may also use Japanese cars as Humanrights says.

The U.S. doesn't colonize countries.

What were they doing in China before WWII ? In 1858 in Japan ? You mean they don't colonize whole countries but only the parts they need ? True.

My understanding is that the Philippians and Panama were colonized by the Spanish. Yes, we kept Guam after WWII, but that is the only territory,

Okinawa ? Hawaii ? Well, Okinawa was given back. And you think Hawaii will get its independence again soon ?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

MoonrakerMar. 19, 2013 - 12:11PM JST

I think you missed the point, A Realist. Selling arms is about dealing in death no matter how it is dressed up, whether to friend or as deterrent or as keeping agreement with a group of similar hypocrites. It cannot be ethical.

What do you mean, I missed the point? Of course selling arms is not ethical. After the Tiananmen Square incident in 1989 when the Chinese government slaughtered pro-democracy protesters, Western countries, including France, agreed not to sell advanced weapons to China. Ever since China has protested that is "unfair." Now apparently the socialist government in France has violated that agreement by selling China advanced (military) helicopter technology. Japan has every right to protest, because why do you suppose China wants that kind of military capability?.

By the way, you might note that in today's news China has moved up to #5 in countries that export arms, beind the US, Russia, Germany and France. You will note that Germany, the country that started two world wars and is universally loved by all the Japan bashers because they have supposedly atoned for their past, is the #3 arms exporter in the world. China is moving up fast, it was #8 last year.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The US has pursued a policy of imperialism and neo-colonialism since at least the turn of the 20th Century. It colonised the Philippines and Panama, it attacked the Soviet Union, it interfered in Vietnam, and it bombed Laos and Cambodia, killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Elsewhere in the world, it invaded Iraq with no provocation whatsoever, and has needlessly prolonged the warfare there; it has used drone strikes in northern Pakistan that have killed upwards of 2000 civilians; it has used assassinations and targeted killing in violation of international law; and it has facilitated Israel's aggressive land grabs against Palestinians.

It has propped up dictatorships in lieu of democratically elected governments, as in Iran, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Chile; it has used foreign countries as proxy battlefields with the Soviet Union; and it has oppressed the economies of many countries in South America with monopolistic corporations such as the United Fruit Company.

This is to say nothing of its brandishing of nuclear weapons and generally obscenely aggressive foreign policy.

Now there's an OFF TOPIC post if I ever saw one.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"Now apparently the socialist government in France has violated that agreement "

The EU agreement is respected by the French , those equipments are not on the list of banned equipment in the said agreement and secondly these are not offensive equipments

Besides , the term "socialist" has not the same meaning in France (social-democrats ) than in Japan or the US (where it is generally a pejorative term associated with Stalinist and Maoist regimes ) and it has nothing to do with the business decision that was taken

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I agree that Japan has no business in telling other countries what to do with their legitimate exports. By the look of it Japan seems to be more and more provoking, and trying to suppress China in whichever way it can. But whether it be containing, defaming, bashing, or crying wolf, it doesn’t seem to work with China because people of the world can see through Japan’s intention and ulterior motives.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Too late. They will make 10000 copies of these equipments now."

Like Japan did a few decades ago? The thing is... this is not the problem. The problem is because China has other motives. As in.. using military might to intimidate other countries instead of self defense.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Another 'Made In Japan' complain. Remember this does not break the military sales embargo to China, so Japan should not even make a fuss over legal transactions.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

EastAsiaForeigner, I can tell you what China’s motives are. First, you have to understand the ideas of self-preservation and self-defense. History has taught China that being weak is being bullied. There are countries which like to interfere in China’s internal affairs and cause political unrest. Any abrupt change in China, whether it be political or social, will cause violence, chaos and misery for its people. As you probably know China has adhered to a slow and peaceful rise policy. Since its adoption of the “peaceful rise” policy, it has never been in a war ever since. During that period it had lifted over 500 million people out of poverty which the West called it a “miracle”. When you said, “using military might to intimidate other countries instead of self defense,” on the surface you probably don’t see it as a self-defense. But looking at it closely you will see that China is defending its own territories which were taken from China when it was weak. In fact, China has many territorial disputes with surrounding neighbors and most of them peaceful, but only three countries (Japan, Philippines, and Vietnam) seem to be at China’s throat. Remember that these disputes have existed for years and years before, even during the rapid rise of China’s military might, still the disputes were subdue. The disputes with those three countries seemed to intensify right after the US announcement of “pivot to Asia” policy. All of sudden we hear a lot about China bashing, defaming, and containment. Every bitty tiny news from Japan, such as China not attending ceremony, buoys, radar locking, and helicopter landing equipment, seems to pop up every other day as though trying to keep the issues alive. China seems to be at the receiving end and under constant attack by provoking and abusing words from Japan. Creating the idea of “China Threat”, saying China is “aggressive,” yet China only uses patrol boats and non-military planes in asserting its sovereignty in contrast to Japan which uses aggressive actions and full military means, such as fighter jets. China has been keeping its words all along despite of others breaking them, such as keeping a lid on sovereignty issue with Japan for 40 years based solely on the words of the two former leaders, and negotiating with Philippines based on the prior bilateral agreement. Simply put, we cannot see any hostile actions or behaviour on the part of China. But, China is being blamed for everything, which is unfair and groundless. China is on the path to become No. 1 economy in the world as such certain countries will try to prevent that from happening by using various means as possible. There are two sides to every story, so don’t be blinded by your own presumption. You see, China just wants to dictate its own destiny without any outside influence or interference in order to pursue its ultimate goal that is fulfilling “China Dream”.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

How much is China telling you the truth or are they propanganda. For China the interntional opinions are becoming much more important, and they like to see their country portray as responsible member of the international community. The CCTV was telling the world that what Japan was complaining of radar locking was just a "machine gun", as reported by many of their newcaster. We now have better idea on what took place. There is a history of problems with accuracy of Chinese news since there is no checks and balance system. There is no independent Chinese news that reports against the goverment. The Chinese goverment does not have accurate checks and balance system, which result in continue corruption.

How do explain the $126 millions in damages to the Japanese businesses operating inside China after the fisherman's incident in Senkaku/Daioyu? We all know that Chinese goverment could've stop the demonstrators any time, but they didn't. If this was important Chinese building, the police would've arrested everybody quickly, but it was Japanese business so they wanted to send a message. It tells you that China could destroy any foreign business at their decretion, and foreign companies operating inside China is well aware that Chinese goverment might not protect them if there is a conflict with their own goverment.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Sfjp330, what you were describing are internal matters of China. Remember that China just came out of the shell only forty years ago. Every developing country in the world has gone through the same path but at least China has acknowledged its problems and tried to solve them. Wait until China becomes a developed country then you can try to evaluate China again. And, about the demonstration you seem to think that China did not stop the demonstration quickly enough, how fast should it be to be enough? Didn’t the police arrest some people then? You were thinking that what happened to Japanese businesses could also happen to other foreign companies, which is unlikely. You have to look at the root of the problems in each case and I don’t want to get into the perception and image of Japan among the Chinese people there. There are always risks when you are operating a business in a foreign soil and political risk is a factor. But considering the rewards which are far outweigh the risks, I don’t think any forward-thinking companies would pack up and leave China.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@flowers

Thank you flowers for your lucid explanations. People who paint China as the bad guy either don't understand, make judgements based on mirage/deceit or were manipulated by politicians/US neocons, industrial milltary complex. USA need jobs! This toxic perfect storm makes it easy to pile on China. If not for opium and war aggressions during the last 200 odd years China will have ruled the world easily and not by military means per Cheng Ho peaceful voyage example.

I had being saying China negotiate hard and is patient, her 'bully' stance is actually just a peaceful negotiation tactic, leaning hard on the opponent, so never fear her military as she will NOT use it per Sun Tzu, Art of War!

Anyway, Japan had embarassed herself for complaining a legal transaction. Japan could have done some 'ju jjitsu' financial moves by paying off the French and dump the parts into the sea and China won't have it, just like buying off Burma writing off billions (rich Japan!) to have a beach head in Burma even at a loss to try to unseat China. Astounding Japan!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Not worse than the Obama administration arming the radical Muslim Brotherhood regimes in the Middle East. For France too, business comes first and responsible policy comes second.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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