Japan scrambles jets to intercept plane believed to be Russian

Japan’s foreign ministry has lodged a protest with Russia, Jiji said.

Because we know how seriously Putin and Russia take such protests.

I know, it is required from a diplomatic standpoint, but it is meaningless. Russia, and China for that matter, will do what they are going to do knowing that Japan (and its ally, the U.S.) is all talk and no action these days.

after analysing its vapor trail

Neither good optics nor radar data for identification ?

And a few weeks ago the RAF had to scramble their Typhoon jets to intercept a Russian supersonic bomber that was very close to UK airspace...

This is just a game by Putin to test their neighbours response times to such incidents.

"Russian military jets have not entered Japanese airspace for more than two years,"

The TU-95 is not a jet.

Not an accidental intrusion ... a deliberate probe of Japan's radar capabilities.

@kamejima47 "Not an accidental intrusion...a deliberate probe"

They are even unable to make a clear identification of the intruder. It reminds me a panic in Europe last year when naval forces of Sweden were searching for nonexistent Russian submarine.

zones2surfSEP. 16, 2015 - 07:47AM JSTI know, it is required from a diplomatic standpoint, but it is meaningless. Russia, and China for that matter, will do what they are going to do knowing that Japan (and its ally, the U.S.) is all talk and no action these days.

Yes, because we all know the best response would be to shoot it down, right?

During the Cold War, the U.S. and Soviets used to slip in and out of each other's air space all the time, playing chicken, if you will. And of course there's Gary Powers having his U2 shot down over the Soviet Union. Boy, that was embarrassing.

None of this is quite the same, however, as the Soviets shooting down KAL007. Japan lost a national treasure on that flight. That was mass murder by any standards, as was their shooting down Malaysian Airlines 17. And no, it's not the same as what happen during the Iran-Iraq War.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zpOc9n7dlI

@Jeff Huffman,

Yes, because we all know the best response would be to shoot it down, right?

OK, was I suggesting that they shoot it down? No. My only point was that Russia and China will do this stuff if they want to, to demonstrate they can, knowing that Japan will do nothing other than protest. And those protests will be meaningless and won't change Russia and China's behaviour.

And here I was thinking of the "backfire bombers." The Tu-95 is just as much a relic as the B-52.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-95

Who needs the vapor trail? They are so loud you can probably hear them before you see them.

"And no, it's not the same as what happen during the Iran-Iraq War."

I beg to differ, but is was positively the same. The Russians believed KAL007 was an RC-135 reconnaissance plane. It was a case of mistaken identity combined with cold-war jitters. The Americans mistook an Iranian Airbus A300 as an Iranian F4 Phantom AND US ship Vincennes that shot it down was in Iranian waters at the time. Seriously smh at the white-washing of US history

@Jeff Huffman "Gary Powers having his U2 shot down" It was a spy flight over Soviet territory. By the way, during Cold War Soviets did not send spy planes to fly over US territory.

"Soviets shooting down KAL007"

KAL007 deliberately entered Soviet airspace without permission and the crew did not respond on requests of Soviet air space controllers. I read a book of American authors about that tragedy. According to them, the flight of Korean Boeing was monitored by RC-135 spy plane and synchronized with flight of Ferret-D spy satellite. So, it was a brutal provocation of Americans and poor passengers became victims of dirty politicians.

"mass murder by any standards, as was their shooting down Malaysian Airlines 17".

Soviets did not shoot down MA17 Flight.

When Americans deliberately shot down Iran Air Flight 655, it was really mass murder by any standards.

Kenny IyekawaSEP. 16, 2015 - 09:44AM JST I beg to differ, but is was positively the same. The Russians believed KAL007 was an RC-135 reconnaissance plane.

Hardly. The two planes look nothing alike. They paralleled the flight closely for quite a while even identifying it as a civilian aircraft before breaking off and shooting it down. Furthermore, the Soviets were monitoring voice communications between the plane and Tokyo. Then tried denying that they'd done it.

The Americans mistook an Iranian Airbus A300 as an Iranian F4 Phantom AND US ship Vincennes that shot it down was in Iranian waters at the time. Seriously smh at the white-washing of US history

Yes. It was a mistake, but it was also a war zone with the U.S. Navy there to assure that oil shipments continued through the Gulf.

Russia and China will do this stuff if they want to, to demonstrate they can, knowing that Japan will do nothing other than protest

@zones2surf Well if your statement of "nothing other than protest" does not mean "shoot it down", then what the heck are you suggesting Japan do that you think others are doing??

yamashiSEP. 16, 2015 - 09:59AM JST @Jeff Huffman "Gary Powers having his U2 shot down" It was a spy flight over Soviet territory. By the way, during Cold War Soviets did not send spy planes to fly over US territory.

No they did not because they didn't have any that could fly that high and fast.

I won't even address your comments about the conspiracy theory concerning KAL007. Silly nonsense not documented by either the U.S. or the then Soviet Union.

Soviets did not shoot down MA17 Flight.

Correct. Russian did.

When Americans deliberately shot down Iran Air Flight 655, it was really mass murder by any standards.

Agreed.

No they did not because they didn't have any that could fly that high and fast.

@Jeff Huffman Well that begs the question, "Why didn't they?". I don't think the answer lies in a lack of engineering skill.

@Jeff Huffman "Silly nonsense not documented" The fact that RC-135 recon airplane was in air and flew on parallel course with KAL007 under international waters was well documented. The fact that the departure of KAL007 from Anchorage was delayed on 40 minutes to synchronize a new flight path with an orbital plane of Ferret-D recon satellite was well-documented too. South Korean pilots were pawns in dirty hands of CIA and NSA. And the goal of that KAL007 flight was to get electronic signatures of Soviet radars along the whole flight path of the intruder. KAL007 flew over regions with classified systems of Soviet anti aircraft defence. And Soviet radars were core elements of that anti aircraft system. In 1979 similar civil Boeing, also with South Koreans in cockpit was intercepted and shot down over Russian Far North, also in restricted zone for civil flights. The pilots managed to land jet on frozen lake and passengers survived. Generally speaking, during Cold War times Soviets collected many events when American planes, both military and civil, played roles of test balls for Soviet anti aircraft and anti ballistic systems.

"Russians did".

This is not a pure nonsense only but a poor attempt to blame Russians instead of real murderers. Were Russians guilty, all western media sources would scream hysterically 24/7 without rest time. Why the investigation was classified since a very beginning? Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers diverted flight path of the civil jet right into dangerous zone of local civil war? Perhaps, under strict instructions of American masters-owners?

Back on topic please.

The Russian message is : DO NOT try to touch the Kuriles, its mine!

Back on topic : how they managed to know it was a Russian intruder "after analysing its vapor trail"? Perhaps, spectrum analysis of vapor showed traces of burned vodka ?

yamashiSEP. 16, 2015 - 12:23PM JST

Back on topic : how they managed to know it was a Russian intruder "after analysing its vapor trail"? Perhaps, spectrum analysis of vapor showed traces of burned vodka ?

It is technically possible to analyze the combustion products to take some guesses. Russians and Americans don't use the same fuel. Further, some engines do smoke more than others and that's due to differences in the way (completeness ...etc) the fuel was burnt. In principle, all this can be analyzed.

But that would require me to assume the interceptor had some kind of scoop to collect the gas for later analysis. It may have been a lot less scientific - such as counting the number of vapor trails or even "See vapor trail. No authorized flights. Hokkaido. It must be Russian."

Looks like Japan and the US should also plan a conflict with Russia now, on top of China and North Korea. Abe can draft those protesters against him and then send them to the Kurils.

Paranoia of both sides

"Analysing its vapor trail" could mean 'we saw the contrails tracked out of and back into Russian airspace.' Because who else is out there?

UFO?

Welcome to the Party Japan. My NATO friends have been playing "I'm not touching you" in the air with the Russians for about a decade now. Russia violates other countries airspace on a daily basis.

motytrahSep. 16, 2015 - 01:36PM JST

Europe got it easy. Japan has two nations we have to keep our eyes on.

@motytrah

Russia violates other countries airspace on a daily basis

. Really? DAILY?? Please give details. I'm intrigued.

You must have mistook Russians for Americans. US and allies violate Syrian air space almost daily, bombing whatever they want without approval from Syrian government. Saudi Arabian / UAE aircraft almost daily bomb Yemen territory from March, killing several thousands civilians in the process. Yes, that's almost daily occurence.

"Japan’s foreign ministry has lodged a protest with Russia, Jiji said."

Without even confirming the jet was Russian? Just goes to show you how idiotic and clueless the foreign ministry is. If Russia chooses, they can now use this as further fuel to avoid talks with government officials here on the islands and other issues... not that they need any more reasons.

yamashi: "KAL007 deliberately entered Soviet airspace without permission and the crew did not respond on requests of Soviet air space controllers. I read a book of American authors about that tragedy. According to them, the flight of Korean Boeing was monitored by RC-135 spy plane and synchronized with flight of Ferret-D spy satellite. So, it was a brutal provocation of Americans and poor passengers became victims of dirty politicians."

Ridiculous nonsense! 'brutal provocation of Americans'??

And yes, the Russians (you said 'Soviets' -- haha! what era do you think this is?) helped in the downing of the Malaysian flight, and the media WAS all over it.

Japan scrambled four fighter jets to intercept a foreign aircraft—believed to have been Russian

May be yes may be no...

Japan should know better...

@Peace Out,

@zones2surf Well if your statement of "nothing other than protest" does not mean "shoot it down", then what the heck are you suggesting Japan do that you think others are doing??

Well, the real point I was trying to make was that Japan's protests will not have any impact on what Russia does or does not do. They are going to do what they are going to do, confident that Japan will do nothing more than protest.

However, I was also trying to say that there is no real appetite to do anything other than issue protests, particularly when it comes to countries like Russia and China.

Of course, your question is basically this: theoretically what could they do apart from shooting down the planes. Well, I am not the expert, but there are two that comes to mind immediately. Since this all appears to be about sending messages.

First, they could institute continuous air patrols in Hokkaido to send the message that Japan will increase resources devoted to defending its airspace. Second, and much more aggressive, Japan could engage in a tit-for-tat flight, sending a pair of Japanese fighters into Russian airspace for exactly 16 seconds.

The idea being to respond to strength with strength. To send a message. However, in the current environment I was making the point that it is unlikely that Japan or the U.S. would do anything like this, something I think Russia believes as well.

Russian Air Forces - very professional and disciplined.

So I really doubt that they can enter national air space of Japan.

May be it's a result of different views on national borders ?

It's just showing Russia's discontent and aggravationof their present economic situation and unwillingness of Japan's to in helping out. Winter is coming soon and they may require to import some food in which case they would have to make plea to the US like the Soviets did in the 70's.

Triring: It's just showing Russia's discontent and aggravationof their present economic situation and unwillingness of Japan's to in helping out. Winter is coming soon and they may require to import some food in which case they would have to make plea to the US like the Soviets did in the 70's.

Why WOULD Japan help Russia? What would they get from it?

@Osaka_Doug

Russians are doing this regularly worldwide

Wow, that's even more intriguing. Now not only regularly, but also WORLDWIDE? May I ask you where? North America? Latin America? Africa? Middle East? Australia? Where "worldwide"? And how "regularly"?

@smithinjapan

Russians helped in the downing of the Malaysian flight, and the media WAS all over it.

Yes, it was huge hysteria in the Western media that quickly died down when it turned out that there were no solid proof of Russian / Donetsk rebels' involvement. Netherlands authorities, officially investigating the MH17 tragedy, promised to publish their conclusion in October. May be it's better to wait for the report then try to revive now the false story?

@Triring

Winter is coming soon and they may require to import some food in which case they would have to make plea

It's Russia, not North Korea. Russia now is among top grain exporters.

They've also been buzzing the UK and Northern Europe a lot lately... most recent was when a couple of Typhoons intercepted a Blackjack supersonic bomber. If it IS a Sov... Russian aircraft intercepted by the JASDF then they're getting bolder in the East too.

zone2surf: "Second, and much more aggressive, Japan could engage in a tit-for-tat flight, sending a pair of Japanese fighters into Russian airspace for exactly 16 seconds."

That certainly would be more aggressive, and as you mentioned at the end of your post it's unlikely Japan and the US would do anything more than protest. Russia would have ZERO qualms about shooting down any fighter that entered its airspace -- hell, they do it with COMMERCIAL airlines, so they would definitely do it with fighters. We see this on the sea as well. Where Japanese boats chase off invaders or at worst catch them, haul in the captains, and then deport them again and send back their ships, Russia has in the past fired across the bows of Japanese ships, caught the crew and held them for extended times before sending them back, sans boats.

In short, IF Japan did anything more, they would invite disproportionate retaliation. Best to just let it go and moan and groan a little.... if it was even Russia to begin with.

Jay Wilson Why WOULD Japan help Russia? What would they get from it?

So Russia ask Japan for some help? Officially?

Triring It's just showing Russia's discontent and aggravationof their present economic situation and unwillingness of Japan's to in helping out. Winter is coming soon and they may require to import some food

Some food and some fuel badly need Ukraine this winter. So Japan can help.

Yes. It was a mistake, but it was also a war zone with the U.S. Navy there to assure that oil shipments continued through the Gulf.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you The Reveal!

Back on topic: There's a lot of scrambling. By hawks to feather their nests.

@smithinjapan,

In short, IF Japan did anything more, they would invite disproportionate retaliation. Best to just let it go and moan and groan a little.... if it was even Russia to begin with.

Or, as the old saying in the U.S. goes, "if you can't run with the big dogs, you better stay on the porch." Right?

I don't know. If Japan takes this approach, I am afraid that China and Russia may eat Japan's lunch over time. They are prepared to do things and go places where Japan won't. Restraint in the face of aggression only begets more aggression when dealing with tyrants and bullies. In my opinion.

I sort of liked Sean Connery's line from "The Untouchables". "

They pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Chicago way!

But, in the short run, the U.S. won't have Japan's back on this, even if Japan wanted to be more aggressive. And my guess is that Japan won't go down this path without U.S. agreement/support.

And, in the case of this particular incident, it really doesn't amount to much, other than Russia making a point that they can do it and Japan won't do anything in response other than issue diplomatic protests.

@Thunderbird2

They've also been buzzing the UK and Northern Europe a lot lately... most recent was when a couple of Typhoons intercepted a Blackjack supersonic bomber.

There is a big difference between "buzzing" / fly-by and violation of air space. This Blackjack did not violate UK air space, right? Flights along borders are normal practice since Cold War. Russians do not make fuss when buzzed by NATO planes, simply because it's a routine exercise.

@smithinjapan

they do it with COMMERCIAL airlines

It happened once, in 1983. It was height of Cold war, and KAL007 intruded into military area closed for all passenger air traffic, not responding to any contact. What would happen to a Soviet passenger jet in 1983, if it did the same over, let's say, a base of USN nuclear subs? Soviets blundered in 1983, Americans blundered in 1988 in the Gulf. In no way you can say that shooting down of passenger jets is Soviet / Russian national habit.

This is typical Russian strategy like what the former USSR did to test defenses of NATO. Russian aircraft also entered British airspace this year & had to be chased away the the RAF. Expect more blatant intrusions. Putin wants to test and cause problems for the US & Western countries in Europe & ME, and Japan in East Asia led by their Chinese friends. Look what Putin is doing now in Syria. They are supporting President Abbas who is supported by Iran & possibly Iraq & Egypt. The Russian wants to be influential/control the ME & later Europe. The EU is now weakening with the flood of immigrants - could it be a strategy for Syrian immigrants to "flood" EU, and eventually control it? Very complicating indeed. Japan must remain strong with its allies led by a decisive USA (we hope) in the Far East against adversaries. Better for the Japanese peaceniks be realistic & know what is happening to Europe & of course Far East.

wipeout Well here they list a number of actual violations in 2014 of other countries' airspace - 8 into Estonia, once into Norway and once into Poland:

NATO come to Russian borders without invitation.

Estonia has a common border with Russia.

So it will be constant problems around Estonia. Russia will constantly show to NATO - you come to far on East!

Russian Navy, Army and Air Forces will constantly show its presence NEAR Estonian borders.

NATO come to Russian borders as a threat and Russia should not and will not ignore it.

In Black Sea and in Baltic such conflicts will be quite normal in future.

Some sort of new cold war. The politicians who took decision to expand NATO to east should have think better.

And there was a (very) near miss last year in international airspace between a Russian military aircraft and an SAS jet shortly after its takeoff from Copenhagen. That was caused by the Russian habit of turning transponders off during these flights,

NATO military aircrafts also turning transponders out near Russian borders.

So business as usual

You loosely can identify the type of engine used in a jet plane based upon the contrail that it leaves behind as long as you also have temperature reading and altitude of the surrounding atmosphere at the time. I imagine that Russian jet engines operate at different parameters, heat and efficiencies than US or European ones so that in some conditions a Russian engine would leave a contrail while a US or European one would not and it is possible that by difference in thrust power, one Russian engine would leave a contrail of kind that perhaps another Russian engine wouldn't.

China is testing the Japanese readiness and air defenses.

The flight tracks tell the story. If it came from Russia and returned to Russia it must be Russian! Even if it is not Russian they are responsible because it went through their airspace. As for testing all countries do it except Japan.

@YuriOtani"The flight tracks tell the story".

There is a practice for many years to make photographs of intruder. Everyone could see flag and hull number. In this particular case there are nothing except rumours. An Unindetified Flying Object believed to have been Russian, possibly violated Japanese airspace for 16 seconds. Lordly.

wipeout We're talking about actual violations of airspace, not going to borders, but you're spinning off into another question entirely, and practically disowning your first argument.

Uninvited guest receives a "warm welcome" - it's quite normal. Russian Navy&Air Forces don't need to intrude in foreign territory. They just passed NEAR the border - for example Estonian border.

After Baltic states join NATO alliance Russia put more and more military pressure on these little countries.

Imagine - little Estonia surrounded by Russian tanks, jets and frigates from three sides..

Really dangerous situation for new-born democracy !!!

I question their professionalism when:

2014 The incident occurred on April 23 in the airspace over international waters off the Eastern coast of Russia. American radar reconnaissance aircraft RC-135U, carrying out planned job and was intercepted by a Russian su-27 fighter. He flew about 30 metres in front of the nose of the U.S. aircraft

2015 On 11 April. In the sky over the Baltic sea reconnaissance plane of the U.S. RC-135 was "dangerous and unprofessional intercepted" the su-27. While the article notes that the Russian aircraft approached an American at a distance of only 6 meters.

2015.On 12 June. Russian fighter flew within a few metres from an American reconnaissance plane in international airspace over the Black sea

Coming closer and closer....

Professionals...

Don't the Russian know that that Japan is peaceful...just look at the protesters. When might and power make right, only naive people think that they can avoid fighting. Japan! Wake up!

Most of the incursions of airspace are never reported in the media unless civilian controllers are involved. Although sometimes there's some political gain to be made by making hay about stuff. It happens on both sides.

Short term Russia is going back to the USSR playbook because they have new found petro money to support these childish games. Long term it's stupid because the rest of the world is racing towards alternative energy. When petro prices crash what will Russia have?

@motytrah"to support this childish games"

Combat patrols of interceptors alongside state borderline or routine flights of strategic bombers over international waters aren't childish games. If you live in small, weak country you will never realize it.

wipeoutSEP. 18, 2015 - 08:09PM JST I see that you have trouble understanding the difference. There are hundreds of incidents in the last couple of years where the Russians passed near the borders of other countries.

Yes NEAR the borders - and this is not incidents.

These are not what I'm referring to, and they are not what is meant when an incident is classed as a "violation" of airspace

As I explained : Russian pilots too professional and disciplined to enter foreign air space without order. And Russian politicians are not crazy to give such order.

And it doesn't cancel out the Russian willingness to intrude into the airspace of its neighbours

To what purpose ? As a rule it is no concrete evidence - so you can declare everything. And you need not to prove anything. Just declare.

To show airforce - it's enough to fly NEAR the border.. to intrude ? why ? For Russian it's very strange idea.

All this blather you offer about American aircraft

It's not blather - it's real facts - USAF coming to Russian borders - so Russia responds. The goal of Russian interceptors are not civil planes but USAF near Russian borders - it's quite normal

does not cancel out the incidents where Russian military planes, transponders off, put civilian airliners in serious danger, and then just pissed off and hid behind a wall of official denial.

Baltic sea area is not so big and very actively used by civil aviation so all this military games US vs RF is very dangerous. But it was start not by Russia.

Baltic air space now - actively used by NATO... and by Russian at the same time - yeh - it's dangerous.

From the start of NATO expanding Russia prevent - that this is very bad decision. Now we see that this is truth.

don't see how your followup posts, which chiefly display a well-developed sense of nationalistic resentment and insecurity, do anything but undermine that first claim.

Sorry when you can't give an adecuate military answer - so you have a feeling of recentment. But if you can...

Today Russian Army&Navy&Air Forces are ready to give a such an answer. So today Russian constantly reminds Europians about destiny of united Europe under Bonapart or Hitler... Conflicts in Georgia and Ukraine shows that West stand before a red line in East Europe and that is not possible to move further without BIG WAR.

on what Russia thinks it gains by having its pilots enter someone else's airspace for a few seconds,

This is declared only to have legitimate reason to express outrage. Few seconds ? 0,02 ? 0,035 ? 1,03 ?

One more time - with modern supersonic interceptors Baltic sea for example is TOO small for military games. But to invite Estonia&Latvia&Lituania in NATO it meant - to start such games.

Yes and when Russian military planes passed near their borders -they really pissed off, and Russian do it every day and every night.

Border between Japan & Russia - as you know Japan have some claims - so situation is also dubious.

I don't see the big deal. Israeli pilots cross into Syria and Lebanon and attacks targets. I don't remember seeing that news story on JT?

If you're not too lazy, you could track down each of the individual incidents and the duration will be mentioned, as it was in this story. Read it, and you'll see that it says 16 seconds

At a speed of 1 000 kilometers it's about 5 kilometers - how you can precise where the plane at a such speed exactly where this plane really fly ?

It is always some little mistake in any radar data.

So NATO member (and NOT little neutral state) declare that Russian plane enter to national air space - it's only a declaration. They should prove it with exact data.

and the duration will be mentioned

They should prove it , not mentioned. Data of NATO member ?? Yes of course... I trust ...

Of course they did not like Russian military plane day and night patrolling their borders. They thought that NATO will provide their security - here they have "security" . Of course their nervous - every little country will be nervous in such situation.

But they can't do anything... so they crying - Russian planes come to our space !! - it's a hysteria..

If it would be so - they can have direct contacts to Russian military authorities and regulate this problem. It's easy.

If it was some mistake - Russian planes will flight 5 km further... But stil will fly

But the problem is not that Russian military planes come to foreign space - problem that they actively patrolling at all. Near the border.

And they will continue...

wipeout Irrelevant again. When a Russian aircraft flying incommunicado causes a civilian airliner and ATC to go into emergency mode

Sorry - one more time - there two sides who fly with transponders switched of.. If NATO planes not play this game - it will be stupid for Russian to fly without active transponders..

it takes two to tango..

And this dangerous game took place in one of the most active civile aviation area..

But - there are two sides, not crazy Russian pilots attacking jumbo-jets...

By the way from today :

German fighters - Eurofighter "for the first time since the conflict began in Ukraine" patrol the airspace of the Baltic countries with full ammunition...The Inspector of the Air Force (Inspekteur der Luftwaffe) Lieutenant General Karl Müllner

So who making dangerous steps ??

Imagine : civil airliners and Luftwaffe (by the way created by Nazi ) - ready to fire...

It's a right of any country to probe the airspace of another country - it keeps them on their toes. Russia is always probing European airspace, it's just what you do when you're a bully of a country.

16 seconds in Japanese airspace and Japan sends up four fighte jets....slight overkill?

The Japanese jets should of been there to prevent the Russians from entering our airspace. The Russians are testing air defense in preparation for an attack on Japan.