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Japan urged to stop requiring transgender sterilization

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By Mari Yamaguchi

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though the court acknowledged that the practice restricts freedom and could become out of step with changing social values.

Meaning that there is no other reason for the requirement than the judges own "social" values and not based upon any law.

That is a problem,

3 ( +7 / -4 )

What happen when a Lesbian dates a transwoman.

Wouldn't they effectively be in a heterosexual relationship with the ability to bear children.

-4 ( +8 / -12 )

I doubt most lesbians would be interested in dating a trangender woman. Lesbians are attracted to physically female bodies. Similarly, I'm a heterosexual female and would not be attracted to a transgender man.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

@Yubaru,

Meaning that there is no other reason for the requirement than the judges own "social" values and not based upon any law.

Actually, I think you probably have this backwards. Not trying to criticize you, just wanted to point some things out.

The court actually acknowledged that the practice could be out of step with changing values. They themselves seem to recognize this.

However, their ruling was based on the law. As per the article:

A 2004 law states that people wishing to register a gender change must have their original reproductive organs removed and have a body that "appears to have parts that resemble the genital organs" of the gender they want to register.

So, because of the provisions of the law, there is not much the court can do. Unless they take the monumental step of declaring the underlying law unconstitutional under Japan's constitution. And I have never seen the Japan Supreme Court do this.

What I think the court / the judges were saying is that the law should be revisited.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

What happen when a Lesbian dates a transwoman.

Wouldn't they effectively be in a heterosexual relationship with the ability to bear children.

People are attracted to people, there's no set rules. What you may call a grey area. Or better still, a rainbow area.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

I'm confused. A "transgender woman" is really a bloke, right? And a "transgender man" is a woman. Surely those with male "naughty bits" are blokes, whatever they call themselves and those with female NB's are women. The law makes sense to me.

-6 ( +8 / -14 )

Surely those with male "naughty bits" are blokes, whatever they call themselves and those with female NB's are women. The law makes sense to me.

It's not as simple as that, so I can understand your confusion. This is a useful link for those who want to learn more about the subject.

https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

1 ( +6 / -5 )

I think the law as it stands today is fine. It should not be changed.

Gender is not a fashion accessory.

-5 ( +10 / -15 )

Gender is not a fashion accessory.

Why not? :)

And frankly, what business is it of anyone else how other people express their gender?

-3 ( +7 / -10 )

@BertieWooster

I agree with you despite having read all of the transgender arguments.

A women's rape crisis center in Vancouver, Canada has recently come under fire for not allowing transgender women to enter, which, to me, is ridiculous because despite what transgender women think, some real women who have been raped by men with the same equipment as these transgender women, don't want them anywhere near the center.

Another transgender woman Vancouver is suing a beautician for refusing to performing a Brazillian wax job because the transgender woman still looked like a man in the vital area.

These kinds of cases only highlight the ridiculous arguments going on, and underline how tenuous the idea is that merely thinking you're a woman/man makes you so.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

And frankly, what business is it of anyone else how other people express their gender?

It is when it infringes on the rights of others, like in the 2 cases I outlined above. As one who advocate for women's rights, surely you would understand this point.

This is a useful link for those who want to learn more about the subject.

It's a useful link for getting one side of the story, that's true.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

> > Burning BushToday 07:32 am JST

What happen when a Lesbian dates a transwoman.

Wouldn't they effectively be in a heterosexual relationship with the ability to bear children.

Yes, science has shown there is only two genders, male and female as in X & Y chromosomes. Therefore the trans spouse is just a man in women's clothing and make up, pretending to be a woman.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

japan needs to step up on this, its just plain wrong

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic... That people spend so much effort worrying about fringe topics like this while the world falls apart is just depressing. "What were you doing to stop the apocalypse, daddy?" "Er... I was working hard to ensure that men also had the right to use women's changing rooms."

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Yes, science has shown there is only two genders, male and female as in X & Y chromosomes.

Really? Then what about this?

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a rare chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex; for example, XX males or XY gonadal dysgenesis (see androgen insensitivity syndrome). Additionally, an abnormal number of sex chromosomes (aneuploidy) may be present, such as Turner's syndrome, in which a single X chromosome is present, and Klinefelter's syndrome, in which two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome are present, XYY syndrome and XXYY syndrome.[4] Other less common chromosomal arrangements include: triple X syndrome, 48, XXXX, and 49, XXXXX.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system#Humans

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Ban headlines that have 'urge' in them. Urging is not news.

This headline does not have 'urge' in it. And if the prime minister urges something, it is indeed news.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

As somebody who has been groped, sexually assaulted and raped in japan, this is horrifying. It would be extremely distressing to me if japan became like the west where men can put a bow in their hair and enter female only spaces we have fought so hard for. Japan has a huge problem with groping, upskirt photos, spycams, sexual harassment, assault, rape. We need to address that before we make it worse by letting men change their gender Willy nilly

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

I doubt most lesbians would be interested in dating a trangender woman. Lesbians are attracted to physically female bodies

Err... so that means that Lesbians don't consider transwomen to be real women then. Lesbians are denying transwomen their gender identity.

Humans, as well as some other organisms, can have a rare chromosomal arrangement that is contrary to their phenotypic sex;

Ok, in those extremely rare cases, let's have genetic experts provide documentation and accommodate these people.

But for everybody else, you're either a man or a woman, you can't "self declare" yourself to be otherwise anymore than you could "self declare" yourself to be a unicorn.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

One supposition that was almost definitely made without actually asking any lesbians what they think:

I doubt most lesbians would be interested in dating a trangender woman. Lesbians are attracted to physically female bodies

Followed by a ridiculous supposition based off the original supposition:

Err... so that means that Lesbians don't consider transwomen to be real women then. Lesbians are denying transwomen their gender identity.

The blind leading the blind.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I doubt most lesbians would be interested in dating a trangender woman. 

For what it's worth, I know exactly such as couple.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

As somebody who has been groped, sexually assaulted and raped in japan, this is horrifying.

I'm sorry to hear you have experienced these things - I wouldn't wish them on most people.

But I'm not seeing what relevance that has to this story.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Err... so that means that Lesbians don't consider transwomen to be real women then. Lesbians are denying transwomen their gender identity.

Stop it! You'll confuse them!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

These kinds of cases only highlight the ridiculous arguments going on, and underline how tenuous the idea is that merely thinking you're a woman/man makes you so.

Indeed. I wonder how many women would be happy to have a transgender man with all his kit still functional show up in their changing room t their fitness center?

I rather doubt that the "I identify as a female therefore I am a female even if I still have a my male kit and it is still functional" would be accepted by many women.

In Britain and some other countries there is a strong feminist movement that is adamantly anti-trans. Among other things it argues that there is much more to being a woman than wearing a dress and even if you get your plumbing reconfigured you are not a woman.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

 Among other things it argues that there is much more to being a woman than wearing a dress and even if you get your plumbing reconfigured you are not a woman.

This is just it. Transgender people tend to put the “identify as...” aspect above all else, when in fact it’s only one part of the equation. Unless they have the experience, body and identity of a woman, then they are really at most only 1/3 woman. And identifying as a woman is really the one aspect that can’t be proven or verified, yet they demand that society treats them as such no questions asked.

Furthmore, despite the rarity and psychological aspect of their condition, as well as the documented cases of people returning to their original gender after some time, as well as the existence of hysterical dysphoria, transgender activists demand that the rest of society take transgender people at their word and without question.

Finally, there is the argument put forth by the same activists that dysphoric children must be allowed physical treatment to allow them to transition despite not having physically or mentally matured, and despite evidence that many people grow out of their dysphoria.

All of this just defies any sense of rational and reasonable thinking.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Strange and completely unsurprising that the same individuals that excuse japans past atrocious acts, excuse even this. Can't imagine the train of thought if the afflicting nation was say north korea. Oh, no wait. I actually can.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

So now what characteristics define 'male' and 'female'?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

So now what characteristics define 'male' and 'female'?

As far as I understand it, there are no characteristics that are universal across everyone we would call male or female. There are only arbitrary points that we define to be male or female, and a person is attributed one of those based on which arbitrary marker they seem closer to than the other.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

sourpussToday 09:08 am JST

And frankly, what business is it of anyone else how other people express their gender?

It is when it infringes on the rights of others, like in the 2 cases I outlined above. As one who advocate for women's rights, surely you would understand this poi

If you were known for advocating for women's rights and supporting feminisim I would believe that you actually have women's welfare in mind, rather than just seeing this as an opportunity to trash transwomen.

But the case you present will have to be approached with nuance rather than a broad brush. Since the needs of cisgender rape victims are simply different from those of a transwoman, a rape crisis center catering to ciswomen may not be an appropriate place for a transwoman to get assistance. As society changes and we understand more about the needs of this particular community, we will be able to create spaces and devote resources towards those needs.

In other words, this is not the insurmountable problem you are attempting to make it out to be.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

sourpussToday 12:58 pm JST

This is just it. Transgender people tend to put the “identify as...” aspect above all else, when in fact it’s only one part of the equation. Unless they have the experience, body and identity of a woman, then they are really at most only 1/3 woman. And identifying as a woman is really the one aspect that can’t be proven or verified, yet they demand that society treats them as such no questions asked.

Furthmore, despite the rarity and psychological aspect of their condition, as well as the documented cases of people returning to their original gender after some time, as well as the existence of hysterical dysphoria, transgender activists demand that the rest of society take transgender people at their word and without question.

Finally, there is the argument put forth by the same activists that dysphoric children must be allowed physical treatment to allow them to transition despite not having physically or mentally matured, and despite evidence that many people grow out of their dysphoria.

All of this just defies any sense of rational and reasonable thinking.

Gender and biological sex are two different things. In addition, there are no strict definitions as to what exactly makes one biologically male or female since there are chromosomal anomalies that make it impossible to create them. For the sake of simplicity, laypeople use the dictionary definition, which is why "male" and "female" have become ordinary parlance. Biologists, however, do not define "male" or "female" in those strict terms. It's way more complicated than xx or xy, as I believe some people have already pointed out.

Gender falls into the realm of sociology and psychology. What is feminine and what is masculine is subjective. Can boys play with dolls? Should girls be able to wear pants? Can men wear skirts? Why not?

It seems obvious that we should take people at their word when they tell us how they feel about their gender. Their feelings may change over time, but that does not mean that what they feel at the moment is doubtful or a lie. Human beings are subject to all kinds of psychological pressures and processes. Just as it takes time for some gay, lesbian, or bisexual people to define their sexuality, it takes time for a transgender person to process their gender identity. Meanwhile, their journey should be respected - if for no other reason than it is the kind, ethical, and moral thing to do. Why would you disparage someone for no reason other than experimenting with different gender identities? What is a reasonable justification for discrimination or abuse of people who are undergoing what might be a traumatic and confusing life stage?

And of course, you fail to mention the people who are so certain about their gender identity that it never wavers. I am sure you are one of those people. If you think cisgender people can just snap their fingers and become transgender, I challenge you to prove it by giving it a try yourself. If you (or any of the other doubters here) put on a dress right now, you would indeed just be a man in a dress (which is fine!) while a transwoman would feel, think, and BE female.

There is a very good argument for allowing dysphoric children to undergo transition before the onset of puberty. It helps the transition process which eases symptoms of dysphoria, and helps them integrate into society more smoothly as they can "pass" as the gender they identify with. You have articulated the con argument quite well. It is definitely a concern, and you should have been honest enough to include the fact that trans activists, parents, and psychologists are well aware of the problems of early transition, do not ignore them, and are actively working towards a safe solution. It is not something people do lightly, as you seem to suggest.

I feel by your posts that you are either only peripherally aware of the issues and lack a depth of knowledge, or else you are purposely leaving things out so that your conclusions will support your clear bias against transpeople

That goes for everyone else here, too. My suggestion is to read more scientifically-sourced materials and to go out to talk to some actual transpeople.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Japan has a huge problem with groping, upskirt photos, spycams, sexual harassment, assault, rape. We need to address that before we make it worse by letting men change their gender Willy nilly

I'm not sure if the two are mutually exclusive. And I don't see larger how forcing ex-women to have their ovaries removed helps anyone in cases like this:

Fumino Sugiyama, a transgender man who has had a mastectomy but still has ovaries, said in a video released with the report that he is still female on official documents including his passport, and he and his girlfriend cannot register as a married couple.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Gender is not a fashion accessory.

I'm glad you realise that.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of people willing to equate trans people with rapists, in just the same way people do towards gay peoples equating them with paedophiles.

The hatred for trans folk is on the increase, so we should be wary of those who repeatedly dismiss trans peoples fears and concerns.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Jenna Mary Ellen KellyToday 11:21 am JST

As somebody who has been groped, sexually assaulted and raped in japan, this is horrifying. It would be extremely distressing to me if japan became like the west where men can put a bow in their hair and enter female only spaces we have fought so hard for. Japan has a huge problem with groping, upskirt photos, spycams, sexual harassment, assault, rape. We need to address that before we make it worse by letting men change their gender Willy nilly

Transwomen are not "men in a dress". They are women, identify as women, and should be accepted as women.

Your assertion tht "men can put a bow in his hair" and be considered a woman is not an accurate description of the transition process. If a man puts a bow in his hair, he is still a man. As I said earlier, if you think a cisgender person can become transgender just by dressing like the opposite gender, then I encourage you to try this yourself. I imagine you will feel pretty silly.

Your attempt to paint all transwomen as dangerous rapists is very distressing, as it clearly is based on a personal prejudice rather than fact. I think you should be careful about spreading such false narratives because as we have recently seen in NZ, people repeat these terrible rumors enough that people wind up believing them, which in turn has resulted in violence against those persons. Transpeople already experience elevated levels of harassment and violence and do not need their lives put even more at risk by such false assertions.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

your logic doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. If people can change their gender without surgery how exactly are we going to weed out the “real trans people” (which I don’t exist, but if we pretend they do) and the fake trans people? If you’re going to make laws to make it INCREDIBLY easy to “become a woman” then you can bet hordes of fake trans people will be signing up to attack women. 

Emotive and illogical response.

Nobody's forcing you to become trans. Live and let live - there will always be sexual predators - be they hetero/gay/trans etc - but the majority of people are decent, even if they are "different" to society's "norms".

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe and his conservative supporters have campaigned to restore a paternalistic society based on heterosexual marriage.

Talk about a lost cause! If they are serious, what they should really do is support those persons that voluntarily choose to have a heterosexual family and raise children. Many families who want more children stop at 1 or 2 due to the high costs of housing, education, etc.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

When you start off with utter nonsense that flies in the face of basic biology, people who aren't blindfolded by ideological rhetoric simply stop reading at that point.

You have made a number of posts to this effect in the past. It simply demonstrates that you do not understand the difference between sex and gender. Sex is a matter of biology. Gender is a matter of societal norms generally associated with a sex.

Is wearing a skirt feminine? What if you are Scottish and are wearing a kilt?

Is having long hair feminine? Does this mean that all women with short hair are masculine and vice versa?

I would be happy to call someone "she" if the individual identifies as female and lives their life as female. I do think that you would need surgical changes to the body to legally change sex.

Also, how to you feel about hermaphrodites and those people who a born with the body or a woman but the DNA of a man?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I feel by your posts that you are either only peripherally aware of the issues and lack a depth of knowledge, or else you are purposely leaving things out so that your conclusions will support your clear bias against transpeople

No, actually I used to be more supportive of the transgender issue. I teach my kids to respect others feelings including about this, but I started to have second thoughts about the whole thing when I began reading the logical acrobatics and bullying behavior that transgender ACTIVISTS have displayed in defense of the morally indefensible. I’m open minded except when reason is tossed out the window and replaced by intimidation. Harming children, stressing out rape victims, this kind of stuff goes on regularly and if you really read up on the issue, you’d see that the activists really have nobody’s best interests at heart except their own. You say that the Vancouver rape center problem will be resolved reasonably but it won’t. These activists are unreasonable. You say they are looking for a safe way for children to transition but they aren’t. They’re shouting down anyone who disagrees with their methods or ideas, including doctors who have the children’s safety in mind. They throw around the “transphobia” epithet willy-nilly because they know that’s their trump card. Of course transphobia exists but overuse of the word really helps nobody in the long run.

The fact of the matter is that the transgender issue is anything but settled. No doubt there are people who can truly be identified as gender dysphoric, but there are also others who are just psychologically troubled and need help. How do we know the difference? The answer is that we still don’t. If we took everyone at their word, there would be a bunch of people who had irreversible surgery and came to regret it. And I n fact the number of these people is indeed growing. Unfortunately, you won’t hear any acknowledgment about this from transgender activists. They’re too self-absorbed to actually look at the evidence and wonder if they’re putting their “noble cause” ahead of the well-being the individual and society.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Is that a fact or a feeling? It is what it is.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Strangerland

If what you say below is true, then the terms 'male' and 'female' have no meaning. Therefore no one, including trans people, can insist on being a certain gender because the terms have no clear definition. This is confusing.

As far as I understand it, there are no characteristics that are universal across everyone we would call male or female.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

You have made a number of posts to this effect in the past.

Funny. I have no similar fascination with you or your posts.

It simply demonstrates that you do not understand the difference between sex and gender. Sex is a matter of biology. Gender is a matter of societal norms generally associated with a sex.

You can redefine anything, I suppose, but that's not the definition of gender that I use.

Is wearing a skirt feminine? What if you are Scottish and are wearing a kilt?

You don't know? Okay, I'll tell you. Wearing a skirt is generally considered feminine, but is also worn as a joke, for fun, and is also worn by men in some cultures. But wearing a skirt doesn't change your gender. Nor does it necessarily make you feminine.

Is having long hair feminine? Does this mean that all women with short hair are masculine and vice versa?

Wow! You need a lot of explaining to, don't you! Length of hair has nothing to do with femininity. There are plenty of women with short hair who are quite feminine.

I would be happy to call someone "she" if the individual identifies as female and lives their life as female. I do think that you would need surgical changes to the body to legally change sex.

Looks like we agree on a couple of things.

Also, how to you feel about hermaphrodites and those people who a born with the body or a woman but the DNA of a man?

About the same as I feel about someone born with 11 fingers, an extra vertebrae (like myself), webbed toes, albinism, or any other anomaly. It's rare, and while people can generally make their way through life.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The group based its report on interviews with 48 transgender people and legal, medical and other experts in Japan. It said the country has fallen behind globally in recognizing transgender people's rights and still enforces "outdated, discriminatory and coercive policies."

48 cases should not a policy make.

I accuse the accusers of pushing a weird agenda.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Nothing weird about pushing against conservative restrictions and having your rights respected.

Luckily, those who object most won't be to do anything more than voice their disapproval here.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

sourpussMar. 21 10:02 pm JST

No, actually I used to be more supportive of the transgender issue. I teach my kids to respect others feelings including about this, but I started to have second thoughts about the whole thing when I began reading the logical acrobatics and bullying behavior that transgender ACTIVISTS have displayed in defense of the morally indefensible.

There is a small but vocal minority of trans activists who carry things too far, i.e., the transwoman who felt she had the right to get a Brazilian, or the transwoman who sued because she was refused at the rape crisis center. But just because these people exist doesn't mean you should withdraw ALL your support from the trans community, most especially from the people who are just trying to live their lives quietly. That includes people who don't want to be forcibly sterilized, people who want to marry, people who want to be called by their proper name, and people who are fired from jobs they are qualified to do because of hate and discrimination.

They’re shouting down anyone who disagrees with their methods or ideas, including doctors who have the children’s safety in mind. They throw around the “transphobia” epithet willy-nilly because they know that’s their trump card. Of course transphobia exists but overuse of the word really helps nobody in the long run.

Again, it sounds to me as though you aren't very educated on the issues. Doctors and psychologists do not prescribe hormone inhibitors or do surgery on small children. This is controversial even among trans activists and their supporters. It seems to me you are only reading news headlines and magazine stories, and not talking to actual transpeople, doctors, or psychologists, or reading studies that have been published on the topic.

I do agree that there are too many people being hyperbolic and shouting "TRANSPHOBIA" at anything even slightly resembling criticism. But again, that is not a reason to completely withdraw your support for the people who are in real need of it and who deserve it.

The fact of the matter is that the transgender issue is anything but settled. No doubt there are people who can truly be identified as gender dysphoric, but there are also others who are just psychologically troubled and need help. How do we know the difference? The answer is that we still don’t. If we took everyone at their word, there would be a bunch of people who had irreversible surgery and came to regret it. And I n fact the number of these people is indeed growing. Unfortunately, you won’t hear any acknowledgment about this from transgender activists. They’re too self-absorbed to actually look at the evidence and wonder if they’re putting their “noble cause” ahead of the well-being the individual and society.

No one is just "taken at their word" or given gender reassignment surgery upon a simple request. You seem unaware of the long and lengthy process people have to go though in order qualify to have gender reassignment surgery, and you also seem unaware that the majority of transpeople do not ever have gender reassignment surgery at all. These processes are in place to protect people and ensure their health and mental stability. These days it is actually very difficult to get gender reassignment surgery, and people don't make the decision without considerable thought. You need recommendations from two psychologists and medical doctors, as well as be healthy and able to afford it - it's incredibly expensive. A few people do slip through the cracks, but that is inevitable - it is not a perfect science, as you noted. But it would be unreasonable to deny everyone surgery just because a few people end up regretting it. Rather than completely banning gender reassignment surgery, more stopgaps get put into place as more is learned.

In addition, trans activists and advocates for intersex people are well aware of the problems and speak about them quite often, e.g., Janet Mock, Alice Dreger, and Buck Angel. Again, that you are unaware of the activists who recognize the problems and even write books about it shows that you are not aware of your own bias and only seem to take note of the things that reinforce them. There is no reasonable justification for dropping all support from people who need and deserve it just because you feel attacked by activists who take things too far. Yes, it's annoying; but withdrawing all support AND spreading half-truths is not the right response.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Dave Chappelle put it best i think.

"Just because (you’re trans) doesn’t make you right about every ---damn thing. You right about a lot of (expletive), but I mean ... just give these people their rights so I can say funny (expletive) again.”

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The word sterilization  does make it sound harsh, but if I'm reading it right. "I you want to be called a woman, you shouldn't have a penis" kinda makes sense to me.

Bugle Boy,

Gender is not a fashion accessory.

I agree and it is causing social problems too, sports, locker rooms and restrooms.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

It seems Japan bunches all transgender as transsxual. Some transgender just see different gender roles, some between, and some as transsxual. The terminology has become conflated in the west too.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Seems the intent is to dissuade people from becoming transgender by imposing a medical and economic obstacle so that the old guard can claim there are few transgendered Japanese.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Strangerland 

If what you say below is true, then the terms 'male' and 'female' have no meaning. 

Well they have meaning as markers on the male/male spectrum, but none of the properties we define as male or female apply to every person that we label as male/female.

no one, including trans people, can insist on being a certain gender because the terms have no clear definition. This is confusing.

Well, we’ve labeled people male and female even within this situation. So while it’s confusing and difficult, as humans we have the capacity to look at the nuances and work with the to come to nuanced perspectives.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Excellent article on this subject in the Daily Beast: It’s Not Just Japan. Many U.S. States Require Transgender People Get Sterilized

https://www.thedailybeast.com/its-not-just-japan-many-us-states-require-transgender-people-get-sterilized

The author has intimate and personal knowledge of this subject.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

These transgender activists what to have their cake and eat it too.

Not only are we being coerced into recognizing a fully transitioned person who has had complete reassignment surgery as the opposite sex to which they were born, we are now being coerced into recognizing someone as the opposite sex merely because they say so. The idea that a man can call himself a woman and vice versa is biologically impossible.

This is not a matter of hatred or transphobia etc. but of language that reflects biological and scientific facts.

We can respect transgender people and treat them as we do others, but that doesn't mean we can allow ourselves to be bullied into accepting this false science nor allow this to be taught to our children.

Strangerland 

If what you say below is true, then the terms 'male' and 'female' have no meaning. 

Well they have meaning as markers on the male/male spectrum, but none of the properties we define as male or female apply to every person that we label as male/female.

no one, including trans people, can insist on being a certain gender because the terms have no clear definition. This is confusing.

Well, we’ve labeled people male and female even within this situation. So while it’s confusing and difficult, as humans we have the capacity to look at the nuances and work with the to come to nuanced perspectives.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Weird - you quoted me but didn’t address that which you quoted.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Strangerland

Can you please define the terms 'male' and 'female'?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don’t know how to. I don’t know anything that would define one or the other that is universal across all members that we consider to be one or the other.

How about you - can you define male and female?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Strangerland

I'm not trying to disrespect you, but you're proving the point many people are making regarding the absurdity of the transgender claim.

You are claiming that transgenders are a specific sex and yet you cannot define the characteristics of that specific sex. With all due respect that doesn't make sense.

For the record, science defines human 'male' as a person that has X and Y chromosomes, the capability to produce sperm, and has a penis, among other indisputable male characteristics.

Transgender males do not possess these characteristics and thus cannot possibly be truly defined as 'male' The reverse is also true.

This doesn't mean we should disrespect transgender people in any way. It is simply acknowledging scientific and biological realities.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You are claiming that transgenders are a specific sex

No, I haven't made that claim.

and yet you cannot define the characteristics of that specific sex.

Apparently, neither can you.

For the record, science defines human 'male' as a person that has X and Y chromosomes, the capability to produce sperm, and has a penis, among other indisputable male characteristics.

Not all men can produce sperm: https://www.theturekclinic.com/azoospermic-azoospermia-no-sperm-count-causes-treatment-hope-success-stories-definition-semen-analysis-sperm-production-blockage/

Not all men have penises: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_agenesis_and_testicular_agenesis

And here is a girl with both X and Y chromosomes: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16934-girl-with-y-chromosome-sheds-light-on-maleness/

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among other indisputable male characteristics.

To which indisputable male characteristics do you refer? I couldn't come up with any myself.

Transgender males do not possess these characteristics and thus cannot possibly be truly defined as 'male' The reverse is also true.

Wait, before you can make either of these claims, you need to define what male is. You haven't even done that. We can't compare whether or not these people are male, if you haven't defined what is male yet.

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@Strangerland

I did quote the scientific description of 'male'. Please refer to any relevant scientific material or dictionary for corroboration.

Also the cases you described are exceedingly rare and abnormal and do not in any way alter the scientific definition of male.

you need to define what male is. You haven't even done that.

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I did quote the scientific description of 'male'. Please refer to any relevant scientific material or dictionary for corroboration.

I'm confused though, if a man can't produce sperm, he doesn't fit into your definition of male. Does that mean he's a female?

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@Strangerland

If the so called 'male' has XX chromosomes then obvious this person is female according to scientific definition.

I'm confused though, if a man can't produce sperm, he doesn't fit into your definition of male. Does that mean he's a female?

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If the so called 'male' has XX chromosomes then obvious this person is female according to scientific definition.

No, as you can see from the link I provided above, I'm referring to human swith XY chromosome, who cannot produce sperm.

Such people do not fit the definition of 'male' that you provided. Does that mean they are female?

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@Strangerland

Exceedingly rare cases like the one you referred to are abnormal and have no bearing whatsoever on the established scientific definition and normal characteristics of male and female.

No, as you can see from the link I provided above, I'm referring to human swith XY chromosome, who cannot produce sperm.

Such people do not fit the definition of 'male' that you provided. Does that mean they are female?

>

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@Strangerland

Please look up the established scientific and dictionary definitions of male and female and ask yourself if transgender people can fall into these categories. They do not.

I think we should be scientifically and intellectually honest here and give transgender people thier own unique category because that is what they are, unique.

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Exceedingly rare cases like the one you referred to are abnormal and have no bearing whatsoever on the established scientific definition and normal characteristics of male and female.

But this human being doesn't fit this supposed definition of what it means to be male.

So again I ask you, if this person does not fit the definition you are stating as male, then are they female? And if they are not female, then what are they?

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