Japan wants anti-whalers barred from Australian, NZ and Chile ports

How about barring the whalers instead?

So much wailing from the whaling fraternity.

No matter what twist they put on it, whaling under it's current guise will never be acceptable to most.

The wailers cry "not fair" at every opportunity, even to the point of seeking exclusion of a boat to a port of call for imagined terrorist activities. If the assertive protesters were terrorists they'd blown the wailers long ago. Agitation and rotten butter throwing is hardly terrorism and such insinuations are in fact a slight on those in the world who suffer terribly at the hands of real terrorists.

While being decidely annoying, it hardly warrants for the protestors to be crucified.

Simple fact - the whaling circle have few real friends in the international community and most countries esp the southern nations will not be waxing with them.

Same old stuff regurgitated by the pro whalers whining because Sea Shepherd doesnt listen to their bleating. Now witness the whalers desperate claims of terrorism fall on the deaf ears of governments not keen to defend the indefensible.

Cleo

You do not realized that Whales are fighting each other too. Why did whales come closer to the costal area like beaches. One is chasing the comfortable temperature. One is fleeing away from their competitors. One is loneliness without the partner. When Wharles are chasing their mate, they produced whale whisper. They said "please do more reserach for us. We needs some scrafices for science".

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. Your comments should focus on what is in the story.

Zenpun -

Whales, Pandas, salt water crocodiles belongs to this category. There are some human intervention for those species. Such as relocation of whales from beaches.

I think you misunderstand the question, or perhaps the meaning of 'extinction'. Dragging a handful of beached whales out to sea might help those individuals, but it does not save a species from extinction when the reasons for the drop in population remain unresolved. And the single sole factor bringing some species of whales to the brink of extinction has been overhunting by Man - which is why there's now a moratorium on commercial whaling. Navy sonar, another threat of human origin, is said to be causing havoc with whales' navigation systems.

david -

Hey go look at the anti-whalers. They are the ones that want people to stop eating whales

It's all about you, isn't it? You and your gastric desires. Personally I don't care what kind of corpse you eat. I just want the cruelty and suffering to stop. Show me that whales are killed humanely and painlessly and you'll find me making a lot less noise about whaling. But you're not going to show me that, because it simply isn't possible.

It isn't about you. It's about the whales.

OssanAmerica: I am talking about Japan not you. Blimey do you think everythink i write is directed at you?

Strewth, the Sea Shepherd will be welcome at any ports in those countries, it would be the blooming Japanese who wouldn't be allowed to refuel innit! Nobody likes them whalers, well, except for a very small and i think, strang minority.

alfgarnett/meanringo- A nation does not need jurisdiction to request port actions. And who and how many have you polled to determine who despises me and my attitude?

Alfgarnet- You are a forum troll who repeatedly insults and offends other posters personally. Under the foruim rules your posts should be removed.

AlfGarnett at 02:25 AM JST - 8th January OssanAmerica comes back with handbag swinging frantically like. You is getting despised more by the day for your attitude, anyone with >somethink up there can see that!

Japan has no jurisdiction over other nations ports, so should shut their gobs. You is getting despised more by the day for your attitude, anyone with somethink up there can see that!

Them whalers and the Japanese government is hated worldwide almost as >much as Israel at thye moment, and i bet Ossan supports both innit!

Nonsense. 99% of the world couldn't care less one way or the other about whales. Israel is irrelevent to the topic.

The protesters have rights to, and they aint terrorists, they are >stoppping barbaric Japanese hunters.

Protesters who do so in a lawful manner have rights. SS are eco-terrorists, a threat to the safety of life at sea and should be prosecuted on a global basis. Even Greenpeace won't have anything to do with these lunatics. Disregard for law and human life, and supporting it, is what's "barbaric"

notimpressed,

Antarctic territory claims are frozen under the Antarctic treaty system.

Japan does have permission to conduct it's activities in the Antarctic, see ICRW Article VIII.

but rather there is no solid law yet to ban them from such activities, so they just do it out of spite and beligerance.

There is a international agreement that explicitly states that they can do what they are doing... You can't say it is not "solid" just because you don't like it. That's total disrespect for international agreements.

You are trumpeting a cause against a landslide of disapproval

A bunch of morons being numerous in number is no reason to change one's sound opinion.

Why do you want them to whale in the southern oceans?

To realise the sustainable utilisation of the tasty marine resources that baleen whale stocks represent.

I fear you are one of those people in an argument for the sheer joy of being a total...

Hey go look at the anti-whalers. They are the ones that want people to stop eating whales even though sustainable whaling doesn't negatively effect them materially one little bit. The only reason they do it is because it makes them feel good about themselves in a twisted way. Or because they are animal rights nutcases. I guess you fall into the former category?

I sincerely doubt you care about these issues in any way unless it is to gain personal financial benefit.

Backwards. I pay money for whale meat (and my taxes) and support Japan's programmes. You have obviously never eaten whale, or do not recognise the importance of sustainable utilisation of tasty marine resources.

zurcronium,

Baleen whales contain very little mercury, especially those that feed in the Antarctic.

Whaling has cross-party support in Japan. It's not just the LDP that back it. And the research isn't "fake". They are quite serious, as are the foreign scientists who are also requesting and obtaining access to ICR data for their own studies.

Airion,

Your logic is inside out. Back in the day there was lots of whale meat. More than 200,000 tonnes at it's peak. Today there is miniscule supply in comparison. 4,000 tons is the "worst" figure that Greenpeace quotes in 2009 (two years ago they were quoting 6,000 tons when supply was higher). And so you complain that no one eats whale. Where are 126 million people supposed to get whale from now that supply is equivalent to a single slice of sashimi per person per year?

there's hardly any demand.

There's hardly any supply. At the high prices whale sells for, if there were no demand, no one would buy it. And if no one were buying it, no shops would be selling it. So it's now up to you to explain why I can buy whale in restaurants, my local supermarket, and even the airport on my way back to Tokyo the other day (and buy it I did).

That said, where is your proof that if supply were twice as much each year that twice as much would not be consumed by whale lovers? I for one would definitely eat whale more if it were more plentiful and cheaper.

Whaling is not only for commercial purpose. More understanding about their habits, movement, life expectancy & fertility.

"Name one species that humans have saved from Nature that wasn't/isn't threatened by human action in the first place (over-hunting, pollution, urban development, global warming, etc)"

More than one for that! Whales, Pandas, salt water crocodiles belongs to this category. There are some human intervention for those species. Such as relocation of whales from beaches.

Some species will extinct whether human save them or not. For Whales, water temperature, polluted sea & competition for territory for each whales are major factors. More scientific research required for sustaining this particular marine species.

David

Have a look at the recognised territories of antarctica too on a map, Japan has no recognised claim, even though they try to claim one. why not recognised?~ because it is ridiculous for them to have territory there.

Why do they have a base? It is allowed for non-whale-related scientific research on another countries territory by that countries permission. They do not have permission to be whaling in the area, but rather there is no solid law yet to ban them from such activities, so they just do it out of spite and beligerance.

You are trumpeting a cause against a landslide of disapproval for what may I ask? Why do you want them to whale in the southern oceans?

As for not considering the antarctic to be our backyard, NZ has a few small islands very close to the continent under our durisdiction, we are very close to the area, and it is indeed our backyard. NZ has a long history of research and exploration in the area. Japan has no history with that area other than the recent one of poaching whales, and their land based research by permission of other countries.

Get a different soapbox and a different battle to fight. I fear you are one of those people in an argument for the sheer joy of being a total... I sincerely doubt you care about these issues in any way unless it is to gain personal financial benefit. Otherwise, why in your right mind do you champion yourself to the cause of Japan killing whales on the other side of the world, in your ( alleged) own countries backyard. Yes it is our back yard, if it isnt yours, then too bad, stay out of the argument then, because you also have no right to hunt whales there, if you could even heft a harpoon that is ;0 Now theres an idea, if Japanese want to hunt whale so bad, make it a sport and put yourself face to face with these huge and majestic animals. Study about how intelligent and altruistic they can be, then look one close in the eye, and take it out yourself.

zurcronium - Thanks. I mean whether eating whale meat or not is not matter. In future sooner or later many coutries will decide to hunt (maybe cull) some number out of large population of whale if whale population increased too much, because too large whale population will decrease fishery resources.

davidattokyo:

Whether or not more people were eating whale back in the day is irrelevant. What matters is now, and there's hardly any demand. So to argue that the whaling is justified in order to satisfy this traditional demand, as the Japan Whaling Association says on it's website, is silly, as there is no longer such a demand. Supply doesn't create demand.

kwatt,

what is the daily minimum requirement for mercury. I am sure one whale mcnugget exceeds that easily. Yum!

davidattokyo, right. Lots of fake research that could be carried out by not killing whales in order to keep the rightwing nutties of the LDP happy. Its all about their idea to take Japan back to the good old days of the 1930s. But these guys pay good money for flaks, I am sure you know about that well.

And hey, where are all the "commercial whaling in disguise" drones now? Busy reading through all those studies based on JARPA data that I linked to above?

Airion, whale was more common before the unneccessary commercial whaling moratorium. Back in the day everyone was eating it.

Survival of the fittest and all that. More species have gone extinct from Natural Selection then will ever become extinct because of man.

Read Darwin. Survival of the fittest has nothing to do with species going extinct, it's about species changing and adapting through individual genetic mutation. Do you understand what 'evolution' means?

we are now fighting against Nature in order to preserve fish and other species that would have gone extinct.

Name one species that humans have saved from Nature that wasn't/isn't threatened by human action in the first place (over-hunting, pollution, urban development, global warming, etc)

More research is needed for finding alternative protien source.

There is plenty of vegetable protein available, no need at all to find 'alternative' sources. Most people in rich countries have far too much protein in their diet anyway. Excess protein in the diet can lead to liver and kidney disease, kidney stones and osteoporosis. Animal protein is also high in fat and cholesterol, which can increase the risk of obesity, heart disease, stroke and other health problems. A diet weighted towards animal protein also tends to be lacking in the benefits of whole grains, fruits and vegetables. The idea that we need to eat huge amounts of animal protein in order to grow big and strong is a fallacy.

I think responsible whaling for food is perfectly justifiable. Better than overfishing, and perhaps ecologically better than raising domesticated animals for food.

But whaling for all that meat is no good if it doesn't get eaten. I like how the Japan Whaling Association, on their website, compares whale meat in Japan to hamburgers in America or fish and chips in England. To anyone living in Japan (including Japanese), this argument is plainly ridiculous. I know there's a few specialty restaurants serving whale, but really, who eats whale? If Japan's whaling was more justifiable on legal/research grounds, they wouldn't need to manufacture all these other justifications.

Cleo

Whaling has been existed for centuries. For Norway & Iceland it was their heritage. Vikings like whale meats. You said..

There's also a market for whalemeat, horsemeat, dogmeat, catmeat and fois gras. Your point being...? Remember if I ruled the world there'd be no market for any kind of meat.

For God forbid, if happened pls happen after my expiry date. I like meats.

Papawhale...

Your name makes me hungry because it is fishy. You said..

You need to find other protein sources, folks, and good luck with that...

The only alternative is human meat instead of fish at the moment.

Japan has no natural resources & not much fertile lands. In the ancient time, over 70 yrs old people from remote area will leave their villages in the winter. The meaning was they will scarafice their life under snows. The result was their off springs & new generation will enjoy more food. It was a history now.

Science can create the genetically modified vegetables & fruits now. I am not sure whether we can create the GMW. More research is needed for finding alternative protien source.

Maintain whale stocks??? Uhh...I believe there's a thing called "nature" that handles that. Humans tend to "F" up everything they deal with when it comes to "managing" wild life.

Actually that thing called Nature tends to drive things to extinction. Survival of the fittest and all that. More species have gone extinct from Natural Selection then will ever become extinct because of man. And by managing stocks, by being careful stewards, by hunting selectively, fewer species will go extinct. Oddly enough, we are now fighting against Nature in order to preserve fish and other species that would have gone extinct.

Whale scientific reserch on what whales eat biologically is necessary in wide sea areas. In future large whale poplulation will affect many fishery resources. the IWC rule is still important to avoid extinction of whale. Other countries will go hunt in future if whale popolation is too large.

No, really. 1000 whales may seem like a lot, but when there are populations of over 100,000, taking 1000 in a single year won't endanger the species in any way. Going down to the Antarctic, hunting in INTERNATIONAL waters, is quite simply the best way to ensure whale stocks are maintained.

Maintain whale stocks??? Uhh...I believe there's a thing called "nature" that handles that. Humans tend to "F" up everything they deal with when it comes to "managing" wild life.

what you all need is some baby whale steak to calm yourselves down

OssanAmerica: I can't do unto what you do because i wood have to write rubbish Hahahah.

Them whalers and the Japanese government is hated worldwide almost as much as Israel at thye moment, and i bet Ossan supports both innit!

The protesters have rights to, and they aint terrorists, they are stoppping barbaric Japanese hunters.

Whales are food. Just like all the other countless creatures that you consume every day. I love dogs but I don't waste my time harping on cultures that eat them. Do unto others....

I find it as unlikely that the Aussies will ban the Steve Irwin from port any more than I expect them to try to enforce their whale sanctuary. As long as the Steve Irwin is not convicted of criminal activity they have a riparian right to port access. Nobody outside of Japan will convict them. So that pretty much wraps that up.

Of course the idea that the Japanese are doing something "illegal" is about on par with denying the Steve Irwin port access. This whole game is getting rather stupid.

The IWC gave Japan permission to research whales and not to hunt them to supply a dwindling whale meat market.

This was the criteria was it? Have a look at the IWC website and show me the link. Japan IS entitled to hunt minke whales under the IWC rules as long as they carry out research AND all of the meat ends up being used.

I can't believe there are so many blind people supporting the whalers.

I can't believe there are so many intelligent people who don't actually understand what they are arguing about.

Athletes says--Whaling is a part of marine conservation. It is also part of marine biological research for updating species data. There is something imbalanced in the cruel & injustice nature. Whaling can be decrisbed as devine intervention for getting balance and order in the Oceans." Wow, I can't believe this kind of thinking is around in the 21st century. Man is the one making the ocean s imbalanced, polluted and Over-fished, Athletes. And Japan is one of the worst culprits at over-fishing everywhere. I was witness to this in Hawaii where Japanese trawlers and fish factories ruined the local tuna fishery, with the help of the Russians in the '80's. Thanks, Japan, for raping the oceans! You need to find other protein sources, folks, and good luck with that...

If Sea Shepherd were to arrive here in Dunedin, they would be treated as heroes. The new government would be committing political suicide if it tried to ban them.

Heda_Madness The Japanese are adhering to IWC guidelines. They also had their research published in a very prestigious magazine towards the end of last year. They're facts. Simple.

I'm wrong? Really? The IWC gave Japan permission to research whales and not to hunt them to supply a dwindling whale meat market. The only thing they are researching is the sustainability of hunting whales as a resource, which nearly drove all whales to extinction 40 odd years ago and will not happen again. Japan has a reputation for falsifying catch quotas of tuna and bonito and now, some people want to give them free rein to hunt whales? I can't believe there are so many blind people supporting the whalers.

Whales from their own waters, yadda, yadda, yadda. Totally off topic here, but what the hell. Japan is going after species that are not endangered. No, really. 1000 whales may seem like a lot, but when there are populations of over 100,000, taking 1000 in a single year won't endanger the species in any way. Going down to the Antarctic, hunting in INTERNATIONAL waters, is quite simply the best way to ensure whale stocks are maintained.

However that really doesn't matter does it. To you, and people like you, there is no valid justification for whaling. Distance and location are just one of the many hammers you use to try to force your point across on people who quite simply don't share your point of view.

Disillusioned, though there is so much wrong with your post that I don't know where to begin so I'll just comment on this:

The lethal 'research' is unnecessary and is a blatant fraud of the IWC guidelines. There are many other groups all over the world conducting non-lethal research on whales. Why do the Japanese have to kill them? - Because they want to eat them, not research them.

The Japanese are adhering to IWC guidelines. They also had their research published in a very prestigious magazine towards the end of last year. They're facts. Simple.

yes, disillusioned, you hit the nail on the head.

davidattokyo, Japanese whaling in the southern oceans is wrong and that is all there is to it. It is in disagreement of an international law, which Japan chooses to ignore and takes place in an international whale sanctuary, which Japan also chooses to ignore. If Japan is so deadset on hunting whales they should be hunting them in their own waters around Japan in which their own data shows ample whales to sustain a fishery. The lethal 'research' is unnecessary and is a blatant fraud of the IWC guidelines. There are many other groups all over the world conducting non-lethal research on whales. Why do the Japanese have to kill them? - Because they want to eat them, not research them. As for the Steve Irwin's antics: Their tactics are blunt and straight to the point. The danger of their activities is all media hype. The only people in danger of being hurt are the activists themselves. They are doing the job of the governments in the southern oceans to deter the Japanese pirates from hunting whales in the southern oceans.

Japanese "food culture" has already destroyed the waters around Japan.

They abuse the waters so much that the only things being fished out are huge jellyfish...can't eat those. Then, go into international waters to where they can cut off the whales, before the whales can bypass Japans depeleted waters.

Duh! According to the Japanese governments data, the seas around Japan ARE resource rich in whale.

The data don't suggest the waters around Japan are so rich in whales that this could meet Japan's animal protein consumption levels.

in the face of opposition from EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY in that region?

The Antarctic waters are international waters, there are no countries located in that region by definition. Otherwise they wouldn't be international waters.

Don't be ridiculous... this isn't what you meant at all.

Yes, it is. First you tell me my views are not those of a New Zealander, now you claim to know what I think! Ridiculous. Only I know what I think, and you can't argue with me about that.

I know you now regret what you wrote

The only regret is that you don't understand "backyard" the way it's defined in the English dictionary.

So I'm sorry, but you can't claim that others have changed what they said just because you didn't interpret plain English correctly. You've learned the meaning of backyard now, so move along and get over it. I'm sure the moderators are about to agree!

I don't know which nation you hail from but as a New Zealander I can tell you that you're wrong. I've never considered the Antarctic to be my back yard.

Unfortunately nobody thinks your views are representative of Kiwis.

And as some one else pointed out, anyone who needs to travel several hours by airplane get to the Antarctic could hardly consider it their backyard.

It takes several hours by plane to get to Okinotorishima. A tiny speck of coral around which Japan has controversially claimed a huge EEZ that Japan considers to be a part of their backyard.

Why does Japan need beef from Australia? Honestly, duh, every one knows that Japan is not a resource rich nation, it imports lots of food so it goes without saying that it will take food from international waters as well.

Duh! According to the Japanese governments data, the seas around Japan ARE resource rich in whale. Why does Japan need extra whales from the Antarctic?

Whale food culture requires whale meat.

How important is Japan's "food culture", to the extent that it requires a mammoth expedition to the furthest reaches of the globe, endangering a pristine wilderness environment and in the face of opposition from EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY in that region?

Can't the Japanese see that their Victorian-era style expeditions to the opposite side of the world are making a laughing stock of Japanese "food culture"?

The whalers and non-whalers can "agree to disagree" by agreeing that whaling should not be conducted in the backyard of anti-whaling nations. All that is required for this is for anti-whaling nations to ban whaling in their waters.

Don't be ridiculous... this isn't what you meant at all. I know you now regret what you wrote, but I'm sorry, you can't just change it because it doesn't suit you any more.

Of course these countries consider it to be their neck of the woods.

I don't know which nation you hail from but as a New Zealander I can tell you that you're wrong. I've never considered the Antarctic to be my back yard.

And as some one else pointed out, anyone who needs to travel several hours by airplane get to the Antarctic could hardly consider it their backyard.

By the way, does your logic tell you that Japan has no right having Showa base in the Antarctic?

why does Japan need extra whales from the Antarctic?

Honestly, duh, every one knows that Japan is not a resource rich nation, it imports lots of food so it goes without saying that it will take food from international waters as well.

could you explain how Japan's food culture stretches to include the Antarctic?

Culture doesn't "stretch". Whale food culture requires whale meat. Whether it's from Norway or Japan or the Antarctic, whale meat is whale meat.

could explain exactly what you meant by:

Sure, although I've done it numerous times already:

The whalers and non-whalers can "agree to disagree" by agreeing that whaling should not be conducted in the backyard of anti-whaling nations. All that is required for this is for anti-whaling nations to ban whaling in their waters. But anti-whaling nations can't expect to deny the rights of citizens of other nations in international waters or the waters of their home nation. Your confusion has stemmed from your thinking that I believe the Antarctic is the backyard of Australia and New Zealand. I don't believe such a ridiculous thing - it should have been needless to say, but I said it for you.

bakabaka, the foreign ministry of any country - even lame Japan - will request other nations to help rein in dangerous renegades.

I can look at a globe, look directly at China and see Japan, amongst other nations. By your logic China therefore belongs to Japan (and other nations)?

Could you tell me of any countries closer to the Antarctic than South Africa, Argentina, Chile, Australia and New Zealand?

These are the 5 countries nearest to this unique and precious environment. Of course these countries consider it to be their neck of the woods.

AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS OPPOSED TO WHALING!

Also, could you tell me how far Japan is from the Antarctic?

Also, could you tell me, if there are an abundance of whales in the seas around Japan (according to Japan's own data), why does Japan need extra whales from the Antarctic?

And given how Japan constantly brings up its very important whale "food culture" in relation to this topic, could you explain how Japan's food culture stretches to include the Antarctic?

And could you explain how Japan can consider a huge and controversially claimed EEZ around a tiny speck of coral called Okinotorishima to be a part of their neck of the woods?

Also, while you are at it, could explain exactly what you meant by:

I personally think some mid-point will need to be found, so that whalers and non-whalers can "agree to disagree". "Not in our backyard" seems to be a likely winner to my mind.

The foreign ministry official is simply posturing for the domestic media, who will continue to spout whatever the government wants them to spout so that the Japanese people will not have to think about or do any research on the issue. As can be seen by the arguments put out by the obviously japanese posters on this thread.

okapake, Japan plans to get whales from where ever it can in accordance with international agreements such as UNCLOS and the ICRW.

Hey, why aren't the Japanese whalers getting the whales in their own waters? Lots of news releases about whale watching tours in southern Okinawa. Whales aplentiful! But will the Japanese take the whales from their own waters first? "NO, let's take everyone ele's first!"

Oh and folks, note the authors of some of these papers based on the JARPA data:

http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/JA-J05-JR19.pdf http://www.icrwhale.org/eng/JA-J05-JR18.pdf (South Africa based scientists)

borscht,

Yes, the JARPN review is related to the whales in the international waters of the Western-North Pacific (and Japan's EEZ when they venture there too).

Look at the link to the JARPA review papers for stuff on whales in the Antarctic.

Oh, and I'd like to see a report on how much whale meat is dumped in the garbage by elementary schools because in my own informal survey, I found that about 5% of the kids eat it.

That's strange, your informal survey seems to say the exact opposite of numerous news articles posted about kids in schools chomping it down, much to the annoyance of the foreign anti-whaling folks who see a new generation of kiddies getting raised with the experience of eating it.

Darn. All those reports in davidattokyo's link are password protected. Rats.

It is obvious that if there is no more whaling, we do not require the any whaling assosiations. Whales are bully boys of the Oceans & eat a lot of smaller helpless fish. If there are too many whales, some species will be extinct. If there are excessive whalings, whales will be extinct too. Losing all of them will be unthinkable. Balanced judgement is required for this debate.

Whaling is a part of marine conservation. It is also part of marine biological research for updating species data. There is something imbalanced in the cruel & injustice nature. Whaling can be decrisbed as devine intervention for getting balance and order in the Oceans.

Take a globe in your hands, look directly at the Antarctic and tell me, which countries do you see?

I can look at a globe, look directly at China and see Japan, amongst other nations. By your logic China therefore belongs to Japan (and other nations)?

Now where is Japan? Oh! On the other side of the globe!!

I can look at the same side of the globe and see both Japan and the Antarctic. Just depends which angle I look at the globe from.

See? Your justifications are ridiculous.

I notice a lot of the titles of the reports listed in davidattokyo's link refer to whales off the coast of Japan and not those in coastal Antarctic waters. I shall read further to see how the research is paying off. Oh, and I'd like to see a report on how much whale meat is dumped in the garbage by elementary schools because in my own informal survey, I found that about 5% of the kids eat it.

thedeath,

Yes, they are password protected. I presume that's because the review is taking place later this month, and the IWC doesn't want some mad anti-whaling "scientist" pre-judging the papers before the review takes place. I was lucky enough to see some of these before the password was added and I'm certain that the anti-whaling folks won't be happy with what they see. That's not important though.

You can find some non-password protected papers from a prior review of the JARPA programme at the ICR site: http://www.icrwhale.org/JARPAReview2.htm

everyone can password their data an say this is a real useful data too.

Would you actually know "useful data" if you saw it?

they much have a lot more useful data than this.

The fleet is out there collecting data, what's at these links are papers containing studies based on the data.

If you want the actual data you'll have to do what international scientists from Australia, South Africa, Germany, the UK and USA did, and request access to it via standard IWC protocols: http://www.iwcoffice.org/_documents/sci_com/DataAvailability/DAAntarcticMinke.pdf

The Antarctic Ocean is the "neck of the woods" of WHICH of those nations?

I guess geography wasn't your strong point.

Take a globe in your hands, look directly at the Antarctic and tell me, which countries do you see?

You will see South Africa, Argentina, Chile, Australia and New Zealand.

These are the countries nearest to the beautiful and pristine Antarctic wilderness. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM OPPOSED TO WHALING.

Now where is Japan? Oh! On the other side of the globe!! So far away in fact that these Victorian-era style expeditions have covered the equivalent distance to the moon and back over the past few years.

How clever of Japan in terms of international relations to ignore the opinions of every single one of the countries in that neck of the woods.

Furthermore, consider the fact that (according to Japan's own data) there are an abundance of whales in the seas around Japan! More than enough to supply whale otsumami for ojisans in izakayas.

Also consider Japan's controversial claim to a huge EEZ around a tiny speck of coral called Okinotorishima. I guess the Japanese consider all of that controversially claimed EEZ to be their neck of the woods. Imagine Ozzie and Kiwi fishermen steaming up to grab sea creatures for their "barbecue culture" from the seas around Okinotorishima. How do you think Japan would react? I think we all know how Japan would react... and perhaps Japan would do well to think about that before sending this huge and dangerous fleet to the unique Antarctic environment.

davidattokyo i kinda sick of reading some expert claiming about scientific data already. i really want to see the real data. now i am really try to spend time to understand the other side of the argument, so give me all the useful links you have and refer to. i will read it myself.

For the record, whale counts are expensive to perform and the IWC doesn't do them every year. But for stocks targeted under commercial whaling operations, any population for which the previous count is more than 5 years ago, the commercial catch limits are rapidly reduced to zero thereafter, precisely because it is possible that drastic changes in population size might come about.

The good thing about this is that whaling nations have an incentive to conduct research into whale numbers frequently, or else they get no whale.

i just checked the link you gave, most of them need password, and those doesn't request password are only a list of people name or some useless lists.

everyone can password their data an say this is a real useful data too.

anymore useful link please, your gov spend a lot of taxes money on this program. including part of my taxes money too. they much have a lot more useful data than this.

cleo,

There's also a market for horsemeat, dogmeat, catmeat and fois gras. Your point being...?

I seem to recall a "cleo" person suggesting in the past that there was no demand / market for whale meat. If I misunderstood, that's fine and I'll accept the blame for misunderstanding. The important thing is that both you and I recognise that there is a market for whale meat.

Then let them pay their way instead of being funded from my taxes.

Japan is a democracy. They'll be tax payer funded as long as the democracy of Japan decides to keep it that way.

And let the pollies whose incomes also come from my taxes stop making seriously stupid demands like the one in this article.

The person in question sounds like a MOFA official, not a politician, but I take it that you are a low-tax, small government kind of person. Interesting.

Whale populations left to their own devices aren't going to alter that drastically from one year to the next. There's nothing wrong with counting them every five, ten or twenty years.

Why don't you let the people who find utility in the biological samples decide what frequency of data collection is required? They are the ones who actually want to use the data, afterall.

And there's no need at all to kill a whale to count it.

Whale counting is performed by sightings surveys, not biological sampling via whaling.

thedeath,

The "japan whaling association" is not a scientific organization, it is a pro-whaling lobby group.

somebody point me to the right direction please!!!

Later this month in Tokyo there's going to be an IWC workshop to review results of the JARPN II programme. You can see a list of papers produced by ICR scientists in relation to this review here: http://www.iwcoffice.org/sci_com/workshops/JARPNIIworkshop.htm

Any more proof of the nature of the research activity required?!

imacat,

The Antarctic Ocean is the "neck of the woods" of WHICH of those nations? Since when!?

daivdattokyo: Why does you think the majority of the world is against Japans slaughter of whales, oh, in tyhe name of science of course (Giggle).

They don't have to be done every year. Long term investigations are not doen aon a yearly basis to be found accurate, alright!!

Many global warming studies is done every 10 years, to see how fings have changed over that period. Sorry son your love of eating whales is blinding your judgement.

The throwing of rancid butter is nuffink compared to the whalers kidnapping 2 demonstrators, tying them up and slapping them abaht a bit. Nothing but yobbos them whalers, an dthey is ignorant. I saw a coupl interviewed on the bo, they thought killing whales is same as killing fish, didn'T even know whales is mammals, bloody thickos.

I agree with Cleo and strongly disagree with davidattokyo.

Zenpun -

They jumped into the ship like pirates & try to harm the crew.

You really weren't paying attention to the TV footage, were you? They jumped into the ship like a couple of students in rag week. How exactly did they try to 'harm the crew'? They did no such thing.

david -

I note you thus admit the existence of the market for whale meat

There's also a market for horsemeat, dogmeat, catmeat and fois gras. Your point being...? Remember if I ruled the world there'd be no market for any kind of meat.

what you need is samples and to get them you need funding.

Then let them pay their way instead of being funded from my taxes. And let the pollies whose incomes also come from my taxes stop making seriously stupid demands like the one in this article.

Alf -

Right on the money me old lad. Whale populations left to their own devices aren't going to alter that drastically from one year to the next. There's nothing wrong with counting them every five, ten or twenty years. And there's no need at all to kill a whale to count it.

AlfGarnett,

then do ever 5 years or summink. Don't have to be every year,

On the contrary, unless the samples are collected every year you'll end up with huge holes in your data set. Inaccurate results may be enough for people like cleo who couldn't give a stuff about whale population dynamics, but for those who aren't interested in stuff just for the hell of it, it will never cut the mustard.

Also what is wrong wiv Sea Shepherd

Apparently they hurled glass bottles containing high concentrations of acids on board another vessel on the high seas and circled around the ship and even came so close as to cause a slight collision. This isn't the first time, and Australia now has to decide whether it wants to be regarded as a serious member of the international community or not.

imacat,

As you've been told time and time again, Australia and New Zealand's backyards are their respective EEZs, not any old international waters thousands of miles away that they care to make claim for.

Japan has absolutely no business in the Antarctic

The existence of a International Whaling Commission is evidence enough that that line of thought it "out of this world".

i don't think i went to the right place! i just went to the "japan whaling association" site hope to find some real scientist data since they do some pretty extensive research every year as we know.

but i can not find anything there! they spent so much of their site defending the whaling itself rather than show any real data they has been correcting.

somebody point me to the right direction please!!!

Alternative headline - Australia, New Zealand and Chile want the Japanese whalers banned from the southern oceans!

Add Argentina and South Africa to that list. Every single country in that neck of the woods is against whaling. EVERY SINGLE ONE! How arrogant of Japan to ignore the lot of them.

Alternative headline -

Australia, New Zealand and Chile want the Japanese whalers banned from the southern oceans!

Data needs to be collected each year, otherwise they would only have data for 1988, which isn't much good if you are trying to understand the state of whale populations in the 21st century.

davidattokyo, you've already stated that you believe Japan should give up its Antarctic whaling as part of a "not in my backyard" solution, so why are you still going on about this silly data?

If you have made a u-turn on what you previously said then that's ok, otherwise please give us a break.

Japan has absolutely no business in the Antarctic... according to its own data it has an abundance of whales in the seas around Japan, more than enough for this tiny niche market.

Here young fella, you is shooting yourself in the foot wiv all your daft comments. Strewth, if it was true (It aint), that killing was needed for research, then do ever 5 years or summink. Don't have to be every year, unless your motives is omewhat different or sinister doest it eh?

Also what is wrong wiv Sea Shepherd , they aint going round with machine guns and missiles on their boats.

Learn the facts not teh propaganda guvnor.

cleo,

Yeah, convenient innit.

It is convenient for whale consumers (and I note you thus admit the existence of the market for whale meat) but as far as research goes what you need is samples and to get them you need funding. That's all.

You only 'need' biological samples from whales if you're doing 'scientific research' into how many whales you can kill for the table without making them extinct.

Exactly. Therefore, the International Whaling Commission needs biological samples. What would an International Whaling Commission be without them!

AlfGarnett,

I said they aint got no right to ask port sto stop protesters

Protestors? This is about whether a dangerous ship be allowed by the international community to freely use ports as a base for it's dangerous activities. And here's what Paul Watson says: "We are not a protest organization". Get it?

nuffink about taking crappy "samples" which is a pretext to real whaling

Samples are taken by both non-lethal as well as lethal methods, eg whaling. But the fact is you can't take all biological samples by non-lethal methods, and substitutes for the ones that can only be obtained by whaling do not exist.

You'D have thought they would have gathered the data they need by now.

Data needs to be collected each year, otherwise they would only have data for 1988, which isn't much good if you are trying to understand the state of whale populations in the 21st century. Your statement is like saying "we can figure out how popular the Prime Minister is today just with the results of an opinion survey from 3 decades ago". Doesn't make sense, right? This is why you should consider actually trying to understand that which you are criticising before you actually do so.

That's if they had any brains and it wasn't really commercial whaling in disguise.

They are the ones with brains, and to anyone with some its obviously not commercial whaling in disguise.

Activist of terror Vs Liar fake scientist,

i say it is a good match, but it isn't that fair since the activist run by a lot less donation money but the fake scientist using a national tax money!

Cleo

Sea Shephard men do not look like sensible people. They jumped into the ship like pirates & try to harm the crew. Otherwise, crew will not capture them. If they are real conservationists, they have to sustain all of the rare marine species. Not only this particular stock.

It was just a stunt for five mininutes fame. Besides that Japan is not only whaling nation. If Norway, Demark & Iceland are keep whaling, what is the point for Japan to please those genius people. In the reality, there will be more restrictions for fishery stocks. However I do not think no one or something can stamp out the whaling. It has been exsited for centuries before we were born.

For some readers, please do not confuse Greenpeace with these nuts in the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society. Greenpeace does not condone or support terrorist activity.

japanese gov better-off spend time and money help the domestic unemployment, the real poor who need real help, or whatever better and more creative program to the country and to the world rather than helping the sinking whaling industry to cover their a-s-s and destroy the country reputation.

shame on those support the whaling industry in this country.

Fact is, if you need biological samples from whales, you are going to end up with a load of whale meat as well.

Yeah, convenient innit.

You only 'need' biological samples from whales if you're doing 'scientific research' into how many whales you can kill for the table without making them extinct. Pure research into whale populations etc can be done without killing the subject. Accept that whales don't belong on tables and you no longer need the 'scientific research' and the whole load of whale meat stays in the ocean on the whale, where it belongs.

Such a simple solution, I'm surprised it hasn't hit you yet. But then from your point of view it isn't very convenient, is it.

davidattokyo: Don't you read other opions and all that?

I said they aint got no right to ask port sto stop protesters, nuffink about taking crappy "samples" which is a pretext to real whaling. Who's doing the research, a bunch of half wits in a nut house? You'D have thought they would have gathered the data they need by now. That's if they had any brains and it wasn't really commercial whaling in disguise.

AlfGarnett,

And what can you tell us about studies of whale population dynamics and the collection of biological samples upon which they are based?

Fact is, if you need biological samples from whales, you are going to end up with a load of whale meat as well.

Sure, you could gather your samples and toss the meat. But if you were rational (like the people who decided this), you'd sell the meat to offset the costs of your operations.

Zenpun -

I have watched the TV footage before. Green Peace Protesters threw the acid bottles into the whaling ship. A few of them even went inside the ship. It was not a peaceful protest. It was a confrontation using the force.

Then maybe you should pay more attention next time you watch TV footage. Greenpeace does not use rotten butter stink bombs; you're confusing them with Sea Shepherd. The two who boarded the whaling ship to deliver a letter to the captain were also from Sea Shepherd, not Greenpeace. I didn't see them exerting any force, yet the whalers tied them up on deck. Forcefully, if you like. I'm sure the protesters did not ask to be tied up, and it made great anti-whaler footage.

You are correct, though, that sensible people (the ones you call 'conservationists') will not pay any attention to Japan's bleating in this case. Nor should they.

Zenpun - "It was a confrontation using the force"? Nobody told me Darth Vader was involved in the protests!

Yeah, and I want a million dollars. Good luck Aso and Tsuruoka.

What kind of pillock is going to travel thousands of miles and kill big fat whales for grub and pretend it is for research, bloody nutters.

Aint nothing to do with Japan what foreign ports do, if they don't want to be prostested about, then bugger off back to Japan and leave them whales alone.

It is just a diplomatic gesture. Conservationist will not care. It will be fruitless.

"It is the whalers who are using violence."

I have watched the TV footage before. Green Peace Protesters threw the acid bottles into the whaling ship. A few of them even went inside the ship. It was not a peaceful protest. It was a confrontation using the force.

SushiSaki3- sure and i don't entirely disagree with you, other than that that the majority of these animals travel the same route between feeding ground and birthing ground each year. Rarely will they alter, unless habitat in either location changes. They are creatures of habit and what they know. Look it up if you will.

Japan should be careful of what it requests. Closing the ports for refueling sounds nearly like a declaration of war to me. Each ship has an equal right to the waters and except for the butter, it is the whalers who are using violence.

eternityforme - "As much as Australia, New Zealand and Chile want the whalers to stop travelling half way around the world to take the southern hemisphere's whales"

sorry to be pedantic, but a whale being caught in the southern hemisphere doesn't necessarily make it a southern hemisphere whale.

Whales migrate across the equator every year.

They are democratic nations. I do not think Government can ban the anti whaling movement. Japan, Norway & Iceland are whaling nations. They have to find the alternative way for chasing whales.

They are democratic nations therefore I do not think government can ban the Green peace & anti whaling movement. More effective way is whaling nations like Japan, Norway & Iceland can boycott their exports & not visiting there.

nice way to change the topic from the screw up pf another lost Nipponjin. what a bunch of blowhard oyajis. Blowhards must include the two new zealanders from wellington paid to spread the pro whalers message.

plans to ask Australia and possibly New Zealand and Chile to ban an anti-whaling protest ship from using their ports to refuel,

Ban them. Then, when a sailor falls off a ship and needs assistance, don't ask us for help. Or, like 2007 when a whale ship needed to dock in Melbourne so a sick sailor could be taken to hospital for an operation, we allowed it then, but not in the future.

Yep... We do want them to stop taking whales from the southern ocean. Why do they have to come along the way from the north to take the various species? Surely the alarm bells must ring in one's mind when they have to travel so far from home, when according to tradition, they should be able to carry out the hunting ( er.. sorry, "research") right on their very own doorstep?! What does it tell you? That the species are depleted in the northern waters and that the so called management of those animals is failing. I understand the cultural background and I don't expect Japan, Iceland or Norway to stop what is ingrained into each culture. What i ask is that they stop coming to the southern waters and take away what we love. Of course there was a time when Australia too was doing the same, but we decided that these animals are to precious to lose. I respect japanese culture, but i don't think that is reciprocated when they have to traverse half way around the globe to take what we want to protect.

Actually is a pretty good idea. Commerce between nations, as well as amicability would require a response. And accusing the ship of actions tantamount to piracy are a pretty good reason to deny it entry.

bar Japanese whalers more like. Why else are Japanese trawlers travelling further and further away... no fish, they've vacummed it all. The tuna is from the Med sea. Weird. Has anyone told Japanese that they're running out of fish? What else will feed people? Or maybe like the rest of the economy, just ignore it.

Australia NZ and Chile want Japanese whalers barred from southern seas.

Haha, good luck with that. They have the support of the public in those countries and tacit approval from the government.

As much as Australia, New Zealand and Chile want the whalers to stop travelling half way around the world to take the southern hemisphere's whales because the northern hemisphere's stocks are dreadfully under threat. If they run out, don't take ours.