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Japanese art on atomic bombings exhibited in Washington

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By MATTHEW PENNINGTON

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I guess the question is, would Japan be open to putting an exhibit like this up? One that shows what the IJA did...

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Would an exhibit on IJA atrocities be shown in Japan? Probably not. Japan loves to play the victim but can't put itself in other peoples' shoes

2 ( +11 / -9 )

@Aizo: Write what IJA is in Japanese and English to let us know we can suggest to any museum or organizations. Otherwise Japanese will ignore your comments.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Aizo. Why not? Just that they cant add words like "please say sorry and give me more money:

0 ( +1 / -1 )

At a time of intensifying focus on Japan’s reluctance face up to its militaristic past, the exhibition provides a different perspective on the end of the conflict — one in which Japanese were the victims.

Victims were not limited to any race or nationality.

For example, these two children. http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/japanese-boy-standing-attention-brought-dead-younger-brother-cremation-pyre-1945

And this baby https://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/shanghai-baby

But the press on all sides was censored to make things look black or white. It's stories like the above that remind us that victims were all individuals, their common ground was their suffering.

I guess the question is, would Japan be open to putting an exhibit like this up? One that shows what the IJA did...

Who would be open? Museums? Some have already been doing it for years.

Horse Manure: Most Japanese are completely unaware of IJA atrocities.

Fact: Those who point fingers shouldn't gloss over their own. Especially folk from countries that committed atrocities well after WW2 ended.

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

RB

In the 2plus decades here I have seen several exhibitions on what Japan did during WWII get canceled, its is a VERY COMMON occurrence here, the norm if you will.

But you sure as heck can find exhibitions on what the Nazi's did!!! Gee I wonder why?????

2 ( +6 / -4 )

No surprise that America tried to censor evidence of their atrocities at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. American experimentation on the Guatemalan people remained hidden for nearly 70 years. Nuclear tests are simply harder to hide.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

Especially folk from countries that committed atrocities well after WW2 ended.

Yes, but.............those atrocities are generally acknowledged and open for the public to learn about. How many Japanese can say they know what happened in WW2?

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Actually the US bombing campaign had Japan at it's knees already, all ports were closed, all major cities save 2 were firebombed. the US saved those two for the Nukes. There were people in government who wanted to continue - regardless of surrender- but of course the other 8 bombs would not be ready for another month.

the US does not really teach what happened in Japan with the bombs and post war period. just like we don't mention our internment camps.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

In the 2plus decades here I have seen several exhibitions on what Japan did during WWII get canceled, its is a VERY COMMON occurrence here, the norm if you will.

Several? Ignoring you exaggeration, there's no law stopping any museum or any other institution from holding a display.

I'd say "nice try at deflection" but that would be too kind.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

the US does not really teach what happened in Japan with the bombs and post war period. just like we don't mention our internment camps.

Supporting links please. Oh and while I'm at it http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jun/13/local/me-59411 I never said the atom bombs were a good thing - I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But neither was the Nanking massacre, Unit 731, the sex slaves, forced labour of POWs. Japan has to acknowledge that while it was a victim of atom bombs - it is not a victim of WW2. Those atom bombs would never have fallen (on Japan anyway) if Japanese bombs had not fallen on Pearl Harbour.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

@Christopher Glen

I wonder why you ask for links when it comes down US's not teaching what the US governments did but never ask for links when somebody like GW says that several exhibitions on what IJA did have been canceled? Being picky?

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Those atom bombs would never have fallen (on Japan anyway) if Japanese bombs had not fallen on Pearl Harbour.

Those atom bombs would never have fallen (on Japan anyway) if the American government didn't meddle with Japan's affairs in the first place.

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

there's no law stopping any museum or any other institution from holding a display.

No, but right wingers have been known to threaten violence, resulting in the canceling of events/displays/etc that show Japan in a bad light.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

I wonder why you ask for links when it comes down US's not teaching what the US governments did but never ask for links when somebody like GW says that several exhibitions on what IJA did have been canceled? Being picky?

Nope. Show me the proof that the US government isn't teaching their history correctly. Or the UK for that matter. Because I could probably put up a dozen links that show Japan isn't teaching history correctly.

Those atom bombs would never have fallen (on Japan anyway) if the American government didn't meddle with Japan's affairs in the first place.

Ah, you mean you're tracing the dropping of the atom bombs all the way back to Perry's gunships in 1853? Amibtious of you. (But that can be partly laid at the feet of the Tokugawa shoguns for isolating their country for 214 years) I think Japan's expansion into China and Indo-China (as well as the Nanking massacre) had something to do with the oil embargo it was subsequently subject to.

No, but right wingers have been known to threaten violence, resulting in the canceling of events/displays/etc that show Japan in a bad light.

I'm with Strangerland on this one. Japan was not a victim

0 ( +6 / -6 )

No, but right wingers have been known to threaten violence, resulting in the canceling of events/displays/etc that show Japan in a bad light.

BINGO BINGO, we have a winner!!

Anyone who has been in Japan for a while should be able to remember these cancelations usually the reason cited is all the "confusion" that the events would cause resulted in them being pulled from museums, hotels, RBasher, there indeed have been more than a few cases of right wingers causing a rucus, the usual nasty phone calls

Its standard operating procedure & most time the events DO NOT happen!

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Anyone who has been in Japan for a while should be able to remember these cancelations usually the reason cited is all the "confusion" that the events would cause resulted in them being pulled from museums, hotels, RBasher, there indeed have been more than a few cases of right wingers causing a rucus, the usual nasty phone calls

Ah, yes. Screenings of "the cove" were severely disrupted. As were attempts to show the documentary about Yasukuni shrine. Moreover there don't seem to be any plans at all to show the film "Unbroken" in Japan. The right-wingers insist on their right to exercise their "freedom of speech" - which is stopping the rest of us from exercising our freedom of speech. Japan is very selective when it comes to exhibitions

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

I believe Japan and South Korea should cut it out with showing their "I'm a victim: displays and statues on US soil. I consider all the things that happened in that war a sad thing but no point in still trying to debate blame or if it was right or wrong to do.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

The title of the exhibitions should be "Higaisha Ishiki on display".

Yes, of course the atomic bombs victims deserve sympathy. But so do all victims of war violence, on all sides.

Who got to decide that these are the only victims who should be remember over and over again?

4 ( +9 / -5 )

just like we don't mention our internment camps.

You forgot to mention that the US government, under Reagan paid back those Japanese who had their lives upended by being sent to interment camps. And also, many of the members of the famed 442nd Infantry who were made up of Niesei and decendents of Japanese extolled themselves on the battlefield in Europe.

So yes the US did some heavy handed things in WW2, but it has been open with facing them. Japan has done some things just as bad or worse, and yet we get the "shuffle along" treatment when one tries to bring it up, but the full support of the government when they get the chance to play the victim to the atom bombs.

It is sad that they had to be dropped, but it happened, and thankfully the rest of the world saw the destruction that they can cause, and no country has used them since then. If anything, I think that makes the sacrifices made by those who have suffered that act worth it. Their images and memories have kept cooler heads at the controls and not led us into a world wear in every conflict since then nukes have been dropped.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

It is sad that they had to be dropped, but it happened, and thankfully the rest of the world saw the destruction that they can cause, and no country has used them since then. If anything, I think that makes the sacrifices made by those who have suffered that act worth it. Their images and memories have kept cooler heads at the controls and not led us into a world wear in every conflict since then nukes have been dropped.

Exactly

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Christopher Glen: No, but right wingers have been known to threaten violence, resulting in the canceling of events/displays/etc that show Japan in a bad light. ...I am with strangerland on this one. Japan was not a victim.

You may be with him and that is ok with me but I wonder where in the above statement he said Japan was not a victim?

And, once again, guess what? Quite a few people who were raised and educated in other parts of the world (out of the USA) do not buy the US governments’ propaganda about the hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki deserving to be assassinated in order to save other people’s lives.

@Psyops: I consider all the things that happened in that war a sad thing but no point in still trying to debate blame or if it was right or wrong to do.

Agreed. What I find disturbing though is that despite commemorating the victims of the A-bomb, the Japanese have never pointed fingers at the US for dropping them in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and have never asked for an apology. Every year, the message is that the bombings should be remembered so that such things never happen again. Yet, some American posters here keep asserting the righteousness of bombing innocents, debating blame, or in short, implying that bombing innocent civilians was ok and that the babies, children, women and the elderly deserved what they got. I find that while some Americans exhibit an unwillingness to accept that their government/country did something wrong, they do like to blame Japan for commemorating its innocent people killed in the war.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

RB perhaps you can explain why a movie like Unbroken isn't released in Japan?

Same kind of thing!

And I remember the book Rape of Nanking WAS going to be released in Japanese, but then it was pulled by the publisher............apparently Japanese aren't allowed to make up their own minds on things

This kind of selectivity happens ALL the time here. Heck right now Japan wants those historic Meiji era factories to be listed but gee isn't it convenient they say its only up to 1910 that counts, seems Japan is all too often only interested in SELECT portions of history, how sad!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

All readers back on topic please. Posts that do not focus on the art exhibition will be removed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Knowing what we do about the capacity Japanese have for cruelty, does anyone think they'd have any compunction at all in using THE bombs against the allies ? God forbid, were the days of colonies to come back, I will do all in my power to implore my country men to run very fast to the Brits despite their own atrocities against us, for they completely pale in comparison to the Japanese. And to think they , the Japanese, are going all out to seek sympathy from their victims makes me ask myself, haven't these people got any modicum of shame at all ?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

And, once again, guess what? Quite a few people who were raised and educated in other parts of the world (out of the USA) do not buy the US governments’ propaganda about the hundreds of thousands of civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki deserving to be assassinated in order to save other people’s lives.

What do you know? I'm somewhat sceptical myself. As I said, Japan was a victim of the atom bombs. But you also have to take account it was treated extremely leniently after the war. Excessively so. Japan could at least return the favour for the very generous treatment it received - and be honest about its history. This exhibition is all well and good, but history is something that should be taught from all angles.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The precise death tolls from the bombings are unknown, but it is believed about 200,000 people were killed.

How many have died from the effects of the bombs since then ?

How many misscarraiges ?

How many deformed babies ?

The bombs were droped , the damage done. Nothing can change that.

All we can do now, is to make the horrors and suferings from those bombs not be forgotten or repeated.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

“Not only are we portraying the Japanese as victims, we’re also portraying the Japanese as victimizers.That in no way mitigates the American responsibility for using atomic bombs but it does complicate the narrative a little bit,” said Kuznick.

This WAS a war of capable adversaries,what did people expect of it especially when the gloves had long come off. That somebody came out of it with a black eye is a surprise to anybody? Could have gone either way,but the Japanese lost, period.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@JaneM "Quite a few people who were rised and educated in other parts of the world (out the USA) do not buy the US governments' propaganda"

Good point.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Some people made excellent arts work. Hope they make copy of this arts and sebd to Pikadon babies who must be about 70 now in pikaron hospital in Nagasaki so that they can image how wqs whaile they were in their mothers' embryo/ Ambss Kennedy visited there but they were forgotten in Ja[an for all these years/

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Christopher Glen: But you also have to take account it was treated extremely leniently after the war. Excessively so. Japan could at least return the favour for the very generous treatment it received - and be honest about its history.

What do you know? What defines leniency? How much is enough? And how much more strictly were the other losing parties treated? It seems that what Japan did after the war is never enough and will continue to be singled out as the most evil of all countries that lost the war. Modern Japan is a different country and if you have ever made an effort to learn why it was treated leniently and even further to try to understand the historical and cultural reasons for the mindset of the present day Japanese your being "somewhat sceptical" may eventually get you to the point where you will be free of the preconceptions and rationalizations fed by the A. governments.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

JaneM,

OK, but cant Japan at MINIMUM at least acknowledge what in did in WWII, I mean REALLY no body is asking very much of Japan & yet 70yrs & counting Japan STILL CANT deal with its past, sorry the rest of the world isn't going to give Japan a pass on this & Japan continues to dig its own grave & FOR WHAT!

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

The exhibition is about the wrongs of the atomic bombs. So America killed hundreds of thousands of civilians to shield their military. Yes Americans the people of Japan know about the wrongs of the Pacific war but do not like to focus on them. Anyhow the exhibition is an attempt to show what happens when atomic weapons are used. Perhaps one day American cities will be destroyed by a foe. They will use the same excuses. Then again perhaps the US will use them again. Again and again this exhibition is about educating people about the ills of using atomic bombs. Try and understand this is more than just the two Japanese cities. The exhibition is about trying to prevent atomic bombs from being used again.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

AlphaapeJun. 15, 2015 - 03:21PM JST

You forgot to mention that the US government, under Reagan paid back those Japanese who had their lives upended by being sent to interment camps.

No. They are not "those Japanese", but are American citizens of Japanese ancestry. The US government paid compensation because it was discrimination against American citizens. It is sad to see that they are not recognized as Americans even today.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

War is hell. However, never in history was the death and devastation of so many innocent men, women and children dealt so swiftly and then applauded. Its never been apologized for by the US government. Such unconventional warfare was never before and has never again been used. Pearl Harbor was a military target. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian cities. War is hell. America cheated. Every American should see the results of those bombs. There is no justification- only rhetoric and rationalization.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@CptKichigai

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian cities, eh? Full of civilians engaging in civil disobedience against the Japanese military's atrocities, right? Another "civilian" city, Tokyo, was firebombed into devastation in March of 1945, and 5 months later the Japanese government still hadn't surrendered. Everyone should see the results of the Japanese rampage through Korea, China, the Philippines, etc.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Yes civilian cities subservient to an Imperial State, ..hundreds of thousands...As I said- rhetoric and rationalization.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

"hundreds of thousands" ( killed in Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo )

How about the millions killed by the Japanese in China, Korea, the Philippines andother countries?

Didn't the Japanese have to be stopped?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yep Serrano Japan HAD to be stopped & thankfully they were, a brutal savage killing machine Japan was! Japanese of today aren't to blame, but they shud at least acknowledge THEIR history but they continue to ignore, lie, etc etc.

I have NO PROBLEM with this exhibition, the world does need reminding what nukes can do, BUT Japan doesn't have the cred to be delivering the message with all the millions as you correctly say killed & still all we get is messages of regret(for what is seldom said!) & of course the suffering.............sorry but killing MILLIONS is a lot more than suffering!

Japan just doesn't have the right to shout about nukes & remain silent about the millions killed & the MANY millions more who survived the onslaught of the IJA!

Japan acknowledge your history & THEN you will have some credibility, just sayin

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@SerranoJUN. 16, 2015 - 09:51PM JST @CptKichigai Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian cities, eh? Full of civilians engaging in civil disobedience against the Japanese military's atrocities, right? Another "civilian" city, Tokyo, was firebombed into devastation in March of 1945, and 5 months later the Japanese government still hadn't surrendered. Everyone should see the results of the Japanese rampage through Korea, China, the Philippines, etc.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Good ideq you have. How about make artistic pictured of these scenes by yourself.nd museum space and show. I am sure some countries will appreciate your art/

1 ( +3 / -2 )

How about the millions killed by the Americans in the Philippines, Korea, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, China and other countries? Didn`t the Americans have to be stopped?

The United States needs to acknowledge its history rather than remain silent about the millions it has killed globally. Americans today aren`t to blame for the atrocities of their forefathers, but they continue to ignore and lie about their past. Once America acknowledges its brutality and savagery they will get some credibility.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Japan was warned not less than 3 times, as usual, obstinacy is king with them. I'd have a little common sense to know someone who's been routing me from 1000km away surely would do the same at my doorstep. Apparently, the higher-ups thought it was a bluff. Show the artworks and tell the truth.

-4 ( +1 / -4 )

CptKichigai JUN. 16, 2015 - 09:34PM JST Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian cities. War is hell. America cheated. Every American should see the results of those bombs. There is no justification- only rhetoric and rationalization.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries had two plants along the coast of Hiroshima City. One of them is in Ebaokimachi, part of Naka Ward, and was called “Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Hiroshima Shipyard” during the war. According to a report on the A-bomb damage in Hiroshima, the number of people working at the two plants, at the time of the bombing, was approximately 9,200. About 3,200 of them were mobilized students, while the others were young women and Korean workers. In 1944, the Hiroshima Shipyard completed its first ship, the Hisakawamaru, which then set sail. From April 1945, the plant began producing one-man torpedoes that made suicide attacks on U.S. ships.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

These supposedly knowledgeable people talking about how the atomic bombs hastened the end of the war are ignoring the elephant in the room. The attack on Hiroshima was made on August 6 and... nothing happened in Tokyo. the attack on Nagasaki was made on August 9 and... nothing happened in Tokyo. On the same day as the Nagasaki attack, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and proceeded to sweep the Japanese Kwantung Army out of China, Manchuria, Korea, and the Sakhalin Islands. By August 15 and with the Soviet troops threatening Hokkaido, NOW Tokyo did something. From Wiki:

Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has led him to conclude that the atomic bombings were not the principal reason for Japan's capitulation. He argues that Japan's leaders were impacted more by the swift and devastating Soviet victories on the mainland in the week following Joseph Stalin's August 8 declaration of war because the Japanese strategy to protect the home islands was designed to fend off a US invasion from the South, and left virtually no spare troops to counter a Soviet threat from the North. This, according to Hasegawa, amounted to a "strategic bankruptcy" for the Japanese and forced their message of surrender on August 15, 1945.[21][22] Others with similar views include The "Battlefield" series documentary,[2] Drea,[17] Hayashi,[18] and numerous others, though all, including Hasegawa, state that the surrender was not due to any single factor or single event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War_%281945%29#Importance_and_consequences

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This art exhibition is about the atomic bombings, plain and simple; not about what Japan did to other countries. The lack of right-wing J-government ability to face up to the war time atrocities committed by the IJA is a separate topic. Let it go people, and take it for what it is.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@GW

That would be the ideal outcome for all parties concerned. Yet, for a myriad of geopolitical, historical and cultural reasons such thing is unlikely to happen in the next several years. Instead of taking any opportunity to do what seems like bashing Japan for not meeting your expectations, it might be a good idea to learn more about the country and try to find a different approach. Pointing fingers helps nothing and nobody and only builds defiance and denial in those who are criticized.

One more point. The Japanese are neither blind not dumb and they know full well that they are criticized by countries which themselves do not have perfect records of telling history objectively (but then which country does?) We live in a world where everything is relative and I do not think that anybody can expect Japan (or any other country for that matter) to get over itself and be the perfect history teller of all times. With this said, I still stand by what I have said before: most Japanese do know about the deeds of IJA. They may not know all the details but many of the native people I have talked with have told me that Japan has inflicted pain and suffering to other Asian nations during WWII.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

SerranoJun. 16, 2015 - 09:51PM JST

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilian cities, eh? Full of civilians engaging in civil disobedience against the Japanese military's atrocities, right? Another "civilian" city, Tokyo, was firebombed into devastation in March of 1945, and 5 months later the Japanese government still hadn't surrendered.

sfjp330Jun. 17, 2015 - 03:18AM JST

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries had two plants along the coast of Hiroshima City.

You have to know the ABCs of Law of Armed Conflict. Soldiers may kill enemy soldiers, but cannot kill enemy civilians. If you kill a civilian intentionally, you are a war criminal. See page 12-1 slide 22 and slide 23 of this Red Cross document. https://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/other/law1_final.pdf

Combatants may of course be attacked unless they are out of action, i.e. they are hors de combat. Civilians are protected from attack but lose that protection whenever they take a direct part in hostilities for the time of their participation.

When military objectives are attacked, civilians and civilian objects must be spared from incidental or collateral damage to the maximum extent possible.

Killing 100,000 civilians for destroying a factory or two is way overkill.

SerranoJun. 16, 2015 - 09:51PM JST

Everyone should see the results of the Japanese rampage through Korea, China, the Philippines, etc.

Korea?! Korea was Japanese ally during WW2. There was no battle in Korea during WW2. China and the Philippines, yes. But Korea, no. I find it very annoying that Koreans think they had fought against Japan during WW2 as a member of the Allies. They really need to learn the history.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The Mitusbishi Heavy Industries factories were so far away from the Hiroshima target that of the 9,200 working at the factories, there were only 3 deaths. The actual target of the Hiroshima nuclear strike was a crowded residential district full of children. Honkawa Elementary School was so close to the epicenter of the nuke strike that all 400 elementary school children were killed. A kill ratio of 100%. This conclusively proves that Hiroshima and Nagasaki had little value other than as an opportunity for the US military to mass murder the maximum number of women and children and conduct live human experiments on civilians.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The civilians killed by the Japanese Imperial Army? Mass killings and massacre. Human experimentation and biological warfare. Torture and killings of POW's. Forced labor. Cannibalism.

From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

American Bombing probably caused about 500,000 to 1,000,000 Japanese civilians. Wars like those during the last century were pure evil killing more than 100 million. One million for every year.

The fire bombing of cities including Dresden were wrong as was the atomic bombings.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The civilians killed by the American military? Mass killings and massacre. Human experimentation and chemical warfare. Torture and killings of POWs. Forced labour. Cannibalism.

The American military has murdered approximately 60,000,000 people including Vietnamese, Cambodians, Koreans, Laotians, Guatemalans, Iraqis, among others, including Asian prisoners of war.

http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/O/bo21631854.html

The murder of civilians, whether they are American, Chinese or Japanese is an atrocity.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

What do you know? What defines leniency? How much is enough?

Japan was allowed to keep its emperor. We can be sure that if Hitler had been taken alive, he wouldn't have remained in power. Most of Japan's convicted war criminals were pardoned. Nobusuke Kishi for example, went on to become PM. His grandson is the current PM, Shinzo Abe. A like-minded person. Not one of the perpetrators of Unit 731 - one of the worst crimes in history - ever spent a day behind bars. They handed over their research to a grateful US, were pardoned, and went on to work in the pharmaceutical industry. Japan was exempted from reparation demands from China (which had just gone communist) at the San Francisco treaty of 1951) Japan did pay blood money to China in 1972 - but another story. Now to be fair, Germany was treated with much the same generosity. The reason I say it was over-generous in Japan's case is due to these pardoned war crminals Japan has imbued itself with an unrepentant view of its history. Most people do not know the half of what they did in WW2. That is why I say all angles of history should be covered - when exhibitions like this are presented

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

zichiJun. 17, 2015 - 10:31AM JST

From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Koreans again? From your link.

Information on Korean deaths under Japanese occupation is difficult to uncover

Koreans were better treated than were laborers from other countries, but still their work hours, food and medical care were such that large numbers died (even Japanese coolies forced to work in other countries were so maltreated that many died). This is clear from the 60,000 Korean laborers that died in Japan out of the near 670,000 that were brought there in the years 1939 to 1945 (line 119a).

If I understand correctly, most of the 60,000 Korean deaths resulted from Allied bombing.

my reading of Korean history for this period suggests a possible range in the Korean death rate of 5 to 15 percent

Garbage in garbage out.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

CH3CHO

Koreans again? From your link.

Does not change the fact that more civilians were killed by the Imperial forces, 3 million to 10 millions than by the American forces.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB3.1.GIF

Even at these low rates, however, the forced labor toll for Korea comes to 270,000 to 810,000 dead in seven years.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Had Japan not started the war, those millions would not have been killed.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

zichiJun. 17, 2015 - 02:13PM JST

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/05/07/southkorea-japan-idUKL4N0XY1O420150507

S.Korea opposes Japan's bid for heritage status of industrial sites

South Korea's foreign ministry said seven of the 23 sites were run as forced labour camps, employing about 57,900 Koreans during Japan's colonisation of Korea, and 94 workers died there.

At the World Heritage candidate sites which were spared Allied bombing, the death rate was 94/57900=0.16%. The ratio was much less than 5.00% to 15.00% he used for his garbage in garbage out estimation.

Had Japan not started the war, those millions would not have been killed.

Nice thing to say to civilians killed by Allied bombing against prohibition of targeting civilians.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Nice thing to say to civilians killed by Allied bombing against prohibition of targeting civilians.

How about the victims of Japan's bombing in China, or Australia for that matter? Would you like to address your concerns to the residents of Darwin - which was flattened by Japan's bombing? Sorry, your "but they did it too" argument won't work here.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

CH3CHO

The ratio was much less than 5.00% to 15.00% he used for his garbage in garbage out estimation.

Is that your best uneducated statement? You make no comment about the millions killed by the JIF?

R.J. Rummel

RUDOLPH J. RUMMEL, b, 1932, BA and MA from the University of Hawaii (1959, 1961); Ph.D. in Political Science (Northwestern University, 1963); Phi Beta Kappa, Phi Kappa Phi, Omicron Delta Kappa. Taught at Indiana University (1963), Yale (1964-66), University of Hawaii (1966-1995); now Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Hawaii. Received numerous grants from NSF, ARPA, and the United States Peace Research Institute. Frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize (see here). Received the Susan Strange Award of the International Studies Association for having intellectually most challenged the field in 1999; the Lifetime Achievement Award 2003 from the Conflict Processes Section, American Political Science Association; and the 2007 The International Association of Genocide Scholars' Award for Distinguished Lifetime Contribution to the Field of Genocide and Democide Studies and Prevention.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/PERSONAL.HTM

3 ( +6 / -3 )

zichiJun. 17, 2015 - 03:22PM JST

He wrote.

We do know that 5,400,000 Koreans were conscripted for labor

my reading of Korean history for this period suggests a possible range in the Korean death rate of 5 to 15 percent

Even at these low rates, however, the forced labor toll for Korea comes to 270,000 to 810,000 dead

It is 4th grader math. 5,400,000 5%=270,000 and 5,400,000 15%= 810,000 One does not need to be a PhD to understand it. But since 5% and 15% are just his guessing, 270,000 and 810,000 are just his guessing as well.

You make no comment about the millions killed by the JIF?

I know. But I am talking about Koreans.

I think it is unfair to count Koreans killed in Allied bombing as people killed by Japan.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I think it is unfair to count Koreans killed in Allied bombing as people killed by Japan.

Untimately irrelevant, in the greater scope of Japan's wartime atrocities.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

CH3CHO

In my opening comment, I quoted

From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

Your reaction was no Koreans were killed by Japanese Imperialist Forces which isn't correct. Not sure why you always focus only on the Korean aspect? Guess it's one of your pet hates.

You still refuse to say the Imperialist Military killed more civilians than those killed by the American bombing, which I have also stated I thought was wrong but somehow you just can't admit the fact that's its true.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a heinous war crime. The Americans responsible went unpunished. Harry Truman and Paul Tibbets were allowed to remain in positions of power. Tibbets' grandson is the current commender of America's nuclear stealth bomber fleet. Obviously a like minded person.

The American perpetrators of the Guatemala Syphilis Experiment - one of the most hideous crimes in human history - never spent a day behind bars. They handed over their research to a grateful US, were rewarded and went on to work in the medical industry and academia.

America has imbued itself with an unrepentant view of its history despite the 60,000,000 deaths their military has caused. Most people do not know the half what they did in WWII. That is why I say all angles of history should be covered. The Americans' "they did it too argument" won't work here.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

CH3CHO

Civilians killed by the Japanese Imperialist troops in WWII.

India 1.5-2.5 million. Dutch East Indies 3.0-4.0 million. China 4.0-6.0 million. French Indochina 1.0-2.2 million. Philippines 1.0-2.0 million.

Japanese civilians killed, 500,000 and a further 500,000 died from hunger and disease. About 100,000 were killed by the Tokyo firebombing Mar.9-10 1945. The atomic bombings killed 90,000-160,000 in Hiroshima and 39,000-80,000 in Nagasaki.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

zichiJun. 17, 2015 - 04:57PM JST

Your reaction was no Koreans were killed by Japanese Imperialist Forces which isn't correct.

Why is not it correct?

You still refuse to say the Imperialist Military killed more civilians than those killed by the American bombing,

I found "important note" to R.J. Rummel's work in his page. https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

IMPORTANT NOTE:

Among all the democide estimates appearing on in this book, some have been revised upward.

I have changed that for Mao's famine, 1958-1962, from zero to 38,000,000.

And thus I have had to change the overall democide for the PRC (1928-1987) from 38,702,000 to 76,702,000.

I have changed my estimate for colonial democide from 870,000 to an additional 50,000,000.

I think I need to consult sources other than Rummel's before answering your question.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

CH3CHO

You continue to run around the bush when there are numerous sources for the figures of the numbers of people, both military and civilian by all sides, killed during the Pacific War, just like the ones quoted in my previous comment so are you denying those too?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Most people do not know the half what they did in WWII. That is why I say all angles of history should be covered. The Americans' "they did it too argument" won't work here.

Supporting links please. We are talking about Japan's total failure to come to terms with WW2, as one of its perpetrators. We are not talking about America's postwar record (which admittedly has a lot of secrets) Americans at least know they dropped atom bombs - which caused considerable loss of life. How many Japanese people know what happened in Nanking, or Unit 731? The attitude of many Japanese politicians is to point to alleged wrongdoing committed by other countries in an effort to excuse themselves. It's called "shifting blame", and doesn't wash. The atom bombs didn't get dropped for no reason - and this exhibition should reflect that

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Japanese art on atomic bombings exhibited in Washington

Why is it necessary to call it "Japanese art"?

"Art on atomic bombings exhibited in Washington" would be better.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

That would be the ideal outcome for all parties concerned. Yet, for a myriad of geopolitical, historical and cultural reasons such thing is unlikely to happen in the next several years. Instead of taking any opportunity to do what seems like bashing Japan for not meeting your expectations, it might be a good idea to learn more about the country and try to find a different approach. Pointing fingers helps nothing and nobody and only builds defiance and denial in those who are criticized.

JaneM,

I hate that lame term Japan bashing, I prefer, telling it like it was/is. Sorry but after over 2+ decades & counting I have seen how Japan works if you will............. Japan has had plenty of time to get its ducks in a row but frankly its obvious most just want to pretend its dealt with & be silent & the rest of the world will go away. ITS NOT WORKING, in fact its working so badly Japan sadly continues to go backwards & downwards most of the time. I don't like criticizing Japan on this WWII stuff but it refuses to honestly deal with real issues.

I hate to point out the old but look at Germany, however its entirely appropriate , just recently in Russia Merkel-san did what Germany can be VERY PROUD of, meanwhile in Japan we have abe scheming to make a watered down lame speech this coming August.......

One more point. The Japanese are neither blind not dumb and they know full well that they are criticized by countries which themselves do not have perfect records of telling history objectively (but then which country does?) We live in a world where everything is relative and I do not think that anybody can expect Japan (or any other country for that matter) to get over itself and be the perfect history teller of all times. With this said, I still stand by what I have said before: most Japanese do know about the deeds of IJA. They may not know all the details but many of the native people I have talked with have told me that Japan has inflicted pain and suffering to other Asian nations during WWII.

JaneM,

Your last line sums it up for most in Japan, ..."" that Japan has inflicted pain and suffering to other Asian nations during WWII"" ...... That is such an understatement for what Japan did during WWII first of the JUST the pain & suffering was MASSIVE in scale over a huge geographical area, AND the J-govt & IJA also treated Japanese themselves HORRIBLY!!

And we haven't even touched on atrocities & the 20-30million killed, sorry most Japanese don't have much of a grasp on what went down. And when you toss in all the denial etc which is till common in govt & the media in Japan, well Japan is just digging itself in deeper most of the time.

And the sad thing is its ALL utterly unnecessary!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Supporting links:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/02/johns-hopkins-lawsuit-deliberate-std-infections-guatemala

America hid these atrocities for nearly 70 years. We are talking about Americas total failure to come to terms with its actions in WWII as a perpetrator of atrocities. We are not talking about Japans pre-war record (which, like America, is atrocious as well). How many Americans know what happened in Tokyo, or Guatemala? The attitude of many American politicians is to point to the alleged wrongdoing committed by other countries in an effort to excuse themselves. Its called "shifting the blame", and it doesnt wash. The atom bombs didn`t get dropped for no reason - they were dropped as a live human experiment to test the effects of radiation on women and children. This exhibition should reflect that.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

This is the creation by artists' imagination. I think the artists want to emphasize that schools with chileren were vuctims with Atomic Bomb by painting a girl;s lunch box. All schools in Japan was closed until Aug 31 in Japan and residents in surrounding prefecture were warned not to go out of home because America invented some kind of bomb that affect eyes etc.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

America hid these atrocities for nearly 70 years.

Perhaps they did - but now people more or less admit them. When was the last time a Japanese politcian admitted Unit 731 or the Nanking massacre? So again, exhibitions should portray all perspectives

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Perhaps they did - but now people more or less admit them.

The American government actively lobbied to deny compensation to the victims of the Guatemala Syphilis Experiment. When was the last time any American politician offered compensation to the victims of the Nagasaki nuclear massacre or the Guatemala Syphilis Experiment? Exhibitions should certainly portray all perspectives.

Most of Japan's convicted war criminals were pardoned. Nobusuke Kishi for example, went on to become PM.

Demonstrably false. There was no such conviction or even an indictment regarding Kishi. Supporting links regarding your allegations please. In fact, Nobusuke Kishi was awarded the United Nations Peace Medal.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@asdfgtr is right/ There was no one the military Govt could recruit for Minister of Business and Technology ( ShoKo Daijin) So Kishi was appointed by Military Govt. After War, Russia was eager to conqueir Japan by Japan Communist Party with charismatic Sanzo Nosaka and there was no one who could stop that. So, GHQ released Kiahi from Augamo War Prisaon and ordered him to do something to stop Rusasian, etc. That worked, Then hwe went to visit Ike and invited Ike to Japan. Then at the airport, Japanese Conservative tried to assassinate Kishi but he survived. ////////////Ultra Conservative already assassinated. Socialist Party chair Asanuma, Japan is different now but at that time only organization that made Uktra Right was Yakuzas in Japan. So there were Welcome Ike offices all over in Ja[an. But wisely, Ike did not come. Kishi worked hard to chase away Russian influence in Japan. If it were not Kishi's effort, Japan now soucl be a communist country. So UN awarded Peace Prize. He was not convicted. His Brother;s father in law Matsukoka was not convicted and died with TB before trial. His brother received Nobel Peace Prize for preaching no more A Bomb all over in the world.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

There was no such conviction or even an indictment regarding Kishi. Supporting links regarding your allegations please. In fact, Nobusuke Kishi was awarded the United Nations Peace Medal.

Sure thing, here you go http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/USWarCrime_Coverup.html <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Military_Tribunal_for_the_Far_East

We aren't talking about US crimes here, but Japan's. The exhibition relates to the US atom bombs. As we know, Japan committed numerous atrocities leading up to this event - which it refuses to acknowledge, while at the same time playing the "victim" card over the atom bombs. What the US did in Guatemala is really for a separate thread.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Glen.

And of course the USA had proof all the crimesNanjing, Unit 731, etc that Japan committed before dropping the Bombs. They were shocked about the Concentration Camps they found in Germany, when people living close by knew nothing. Do a bit more research.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Sure thing, here you go

Your links provide no support for your contention that Kishi was convicted or even indicted on war crimes. Supporting links for your allegation that Kishi was convicted please.

We are talking about US crimes here, not Japan`s. The exhibition relates to the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As we know, the US committed numerous atrocities leading up to the event - for which it refuses to apologize or acknowledge, while at the same time playing the "victim" card. What Japan did elsewhere is really for a separate thread.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Japanese art on atomic bombings exhibited in Washington

What Japan did elsewhere is really for a separate thread.

How so? Japan started the war. Your rephrasing of my words shows you can't come up with any original ideas of your own. Good to know

-1 ( +2 / -2 )

Your factual errors and inability to back up your viewpoints with evidence speaks volumes. We still await links supporting your allegation that Nobusuke Kishi was convicted or even indicted.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Your factual errors and inability to back up your viewpoints with evidence speaks volumes. We still await links supporting your allegation that Nobusuke Kishi was convicted or even indicted.

Read the two links I posted, and be enlightened. Nobusuke was convicted - but later pardoned. A mistake in my opinion - which has led to Japan's current historical amnesia

0 ( +2 / -1 )

The big take away here is the strong will survive and the weak will fall by the wayside. The victor in any war will write history as he sees fit.

0 ( +1 / -2 )

The victor in any war will write history as he sees fit.

Nonetheless - overwhelming evidence from Asia, and western countries - points to significant atrocities on the part of Japan. That can't be written away or ignored.

-2 ( +1 / -2 )

Read the two links I posted, and be enlightened. Nobusuke was convicted

Laughably false. Your links provide no support for your contention. Here is a quote from Wikipedia's Nobusuke Kishi page:

"Kishi ...was never indicted or tried by the International Military Tribunal For The Far East."

Consider yourself myth-busted.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

There is Atomic Testing Museum in Nevada. Nevada Test Site Historical Foundation NTSHF operates. My two daughters in my neighborhood brought me and visiting another daughter there some years ago. I slept in car while going. So when director welcomed us to hear opinions of Against and support, I kept my mouth shut but there were tourists visiting. So it is not true American ignore A bomb. There was Ground Zero Theater and have narration and simulation, etc and people were going there. It is on somewhere on E Flamingo Road. They teach history of A bomb testing, too/

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So it is not true American ignore A bomb.

Indeed. The atomic bombings and their aftermath will be covered in any 20th Cent. American History textbook. Korematsu and the internment camps as well. Sadako and her paper cranes are well known to many middle/high school students.

How many Americans know what happened in Tokyo, or Guatemala?

A lot more than you think, I'd wager.

The United States of America has done some terrible things over the years, but it's generally pretty good about owning up to them a decade or two after the fact. Slavery, Trail of Tears, My Lai, the Tuskegee Experiment... all of these were in my high school textbook. The Guatemala experiment is news to me, but I'm not sure that really makes a difference to the over-all point, which is we do talk about these things and acknowledge past failings to a much greater degree than many other countries do.

I wish the Japanese right wing would come to understand that there is no shame in acknowledging and coming to grips with the misdeeds of the past, only in continuing to deny them.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Would an exhibit on IJA atrocities be shown in Japan? Probably not.

Would an exhibit of the atrocities the US Army committed in Vietnam be shown in the US? Probably not. Is that the pot calling the kettle black again?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Would an exhibit on IJA atrocities be shown in Japan? Probably not.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

You can show atrocity of war by any country. Just recruit creative artists in the world and pay very good money. Then contact museums or universities in the world. Make sure the victim countrues will approve your plan.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Would an exhibit of the atrocities the US Army committed in Vietnam be shown in the US? Probably not. Is that the pot calling the kettle black again?

What makes you think a My Lai exhibition wouldn't get shown?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Yoshiko Hayakawa, who has brought the Hiroshima Panels from the Maruki Gallery outside Tokyo, said it had been difficult to find a gallery or museum willing or able to display them in the United States. They were last shown here in 1995, in Minnesota, and she had spent more than four years trying to bring them again to America.

“I really want the American people to see the panels. They go right to the heart of people who wish for long-lasting peace and for a ban on nuclear weapons,” she said.

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I suggest her to bring to western states that has more population and foreign tourists.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Unlike Japan, countries like the US don't deny atrocities took place. There are two words Japan is struggling with here: truth and denial

-3 ( +0 / -2 )

Japanese American Society in :Las Vegas may help Ms Hayakawa's effort to exhibit Hiroshima Panel in Vegas area, Just send a letter to them and they usually pretty good to get help from MGM. I am not involved but I know they will help to have exhibition here. A majority of tourists are not gamblers. Instead of learning ABC of gambling games they prefer shows and museums.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Atomic bombing is the worst war crime against humanity in human history.No one can deny it. It is obvious that US carried out genocide against Japanese citizens on the pretext of ending the war.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It is obvious that US carried out genocide against Japanese citizens on the pretext of ending the war.

What happened in Nanking then? Or at Unit 731? Kindergarten classes?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

What happened in Nanking then? Or at Unit 731? Kindergarten classes?

There's no excuse for that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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