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Japan's defeat in WWII not only due to atomic bombs, says China

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An ambassador needs to learn the history a bit more to deliver a speech at a famous US university.

No one in Japan thinks Japan was forced to surrender in 1945 solely because of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Japan was defeated in the Second World War not just by two atomic bombs dropped by the US but by all the peace-loving, anti-fascist countries and people—the peoples of the United Nations—including China and the United States

It was nationalist lead Republic of China that was a member of UN. Communists lead Peoples Republic of China was not a member of UN.

I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that

I have no idea what he means by this. Is he trying to say that the world was conquered by China and US, so the rest of the world must obey the two winner nations? He is just wrong, but recent behavior of Chinese communists looks they really mean it.

14 ( +29 / -15 )

Japan surrendered because Russia invaded. Had nothing to do with the bombs being dropped or the so called peace loving people of the world. And definitely had nothing to do with China.

-14 ( +17 / -31 )

Bore us all to death, why don't you.

11 ( +18 / -7 )

Japan getting bogged down in China did have much to do with their defeat; at the same time, events in the 1930s and 40s have scant to do with today.

17 ( +22 / -5 )

Jeez, so tired of hearing about WW11 it was over 70 years ago for goodness sake. Will it never end. Just drop it and move on Asia.

16 ( +24 / -8 )

There are so many things that made Japan surrender. Great Tokyo Air Raids, not a few air raids to other cities, Russian invasion, atomic bombs, ...... I don't think any Japanese believe that we surrendered only due to atomic bombs. Of course not by Chinese Communist Party or Mao.

Japan has contirbuted to the world peace for nearly seventy years after the war. If not, why we could receive such tremendous helps and assistance from all over the world at the time of the Great East Japan Earthquake and Tsunami, even from Afganistan, which really really touched our heartstrings. And we could be sure the way we took after the war was not wrong. I'm sure Japan is a key member of the post WWII international order.

There is no room for China to make something out of it.

15 ( +22 / -7 )

Classy comment. Why these people can't stop living in the past and making all these ridiculous statements is beyond me.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

China says to not challenge the post-WWII order? Never mind that China tries to undermine Bretton-Woods and the Petrodollar at every available opportunity, while attempting to achieve both militaristic and economic hegemonic power. Yeah, China, keep suppressing the rights of your people, throwing innocent people in jail to rot with no trials, censoring the internet, and continuing your illegal occupation of Tibet. Get the log out of your eye before you aim for the splinter in someone else's.

20 ( +23 / -3 )

Jeez, so tired of hearing about WW11 it was over 70 years ago for goodness sake. Will it never end. Just drop it and move on Asia.

@pumpkin31526--If your grandpa did horrible things to my grandpa, but you denied it, even tried to tell people he was just trying to help my grandpa, I would not drop it. Nobody would. Japan does not need to do anything collectively really except stop denying the past and stop trying to put it in a good light. When Japan does that, the rest of the world can start taking them seriously and they might get that security council seat.

Not only China, but also the U.S.A. has recently and officially taken Japan to task for trying to pretend the history did not happen. How can anyone trust such a country? You may purchase their goods, but trust them you do not.

-4 ( +16 / -20 )

Amazing such nuthead can be an ambassador. Oh wait, it's China.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

The British and Indians soundly defeated them in Burma, ending their ambitions on continental SE Asia. Yeah, they were getting pummeled militarily from many sides.

However, the a-bombs delivered the final death blow to an evil regime that was willing sacrifice nearly the entire population for the sake of one man: the emperor.

6 ( +14 / -8 )

This quote from article is interesting: "Japan, officially pacifist since the war, has been seeking a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, "

Why use the word 'officially'?

By name and by nature Japan has been pacifist since WWII, in fact so pacifist that Korea and China seem to have taken repeated delight in baiting her for her neutrality. If Japan does eventually turn warlike I will know exactly who to blame.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Due to his job, he should be aware that, while China has been a mess during 4 decades after the war, Japan was not defeated. The Japanese just took the opportunity to change of strategy and joined the side and the US. And now they both stand together to contain his beloved China and his regime's chronically aggressive behavior.

this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

Say that to yourself, Mr Cui. What you can change is your attitude. It's not necessary that you to revive old feuds.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

A sure waste of breath. The Japanese neither see or hear what they are told. They only believe in the stories they cook up.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

for the sake of one man: the emperor.

The emperor was never the reason for fighting. Can you learn a little more history about the events prior to Dec 1941?

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

“I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

Time china realised this post WW11 international order and stop claiming things as theirs.

Japan has apologized for causing “tremendous damage and suffering” in the 20th century, leading some officials in Tokyo to accuse Beijing and Seoul of intentionally keeping tensions on a simmer.

Correct time for these morons to drop this dead horse flogging idea they have and move forward.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

“I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

So he is talking about a very serious issue- Japan's violation of the whole series of WWII peace treaties/ agreements in a diplomatic way.

Japan has violated at least the following peace treaties/ agreements:

Potsdam Declaration (terms of surrender for Japan):

"The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we ( US, UK, China and Russia) determine."

Japanese Instrument of Surrender (agreement to the terms of surrender):

"We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers."

Imperial Rescript of Emperor Hirohito

"Our Empire accepts the provisions of their Joint Declaration (i.e. the Potsdam Declaration)..."

Emperor Hirohito's Radio Broadcast

"We have ordered our Government to communicate to the Governments of the United States, Great Britain, China and the Soviet Union that our empire accepts the provisions of their joint declaration."

San Francisco Peace Treaty

Article 2 (c)

Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905.

Article 3

Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29 deg north latitude (that's the island chain between Kyushu and the Diaoyu islands)...

And this is the origin of Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty as described by a disclosed US document:

"During a private dinner with the Chiangs on the evening of November 23, President Roosevelt asked Chiang China's intentions regarding the Ryukyu Islands. According to the memorandum written by the Chinese side (Roosevelt's special assistant Harry Hopkins was present but did not apparently take notes), "The President referred to the question of the Ryukyu Islands and enquired more than once whether China would want the Ryukyus." To this, Chiang reportedly replied that "China would be agreeable to joint occupation of the Ryukyus by China and the United States and, eventually, joint administration by the two countries under the trusteeship of an international organization (UN trusteeship for decolonization as described in the San Francisco Peace Treaty)""

China-Japan Joint Communique of 1972

"The Government of Japan fully understands and respects this stand of the Government of the People's Republic of China, and it firmly maintains its stand under Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation."

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

So is this pratt trying to say that China should bow down before China and that Germany should cower before the might of the Allies still? Come off it! What happened 70 years ago should have no bearing on the way people live and conduct their lives. China is arrogant, bullying and petty in the extreme.

A country that kills protesters with tanks and other armoured vehicles has no right to tell other countries how to behave. Shut up China, and look into your own dark heart!

5 ( +9 / -4 )

China trying to provoke Japan with a strong tone is a manifestation of the crisis in their country.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

So is this pratt trying to say that China should bow down before China and that Germany should cower before the might of the Allies still?

Should read:

So is this pratt trying to say that Japan should bow down before China and that Germany should cower before the might of the Allies still?

Can we have an edit post function please?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Blah blah blah. God China makes some of the most annoying noise in the world.

Who else things that China should be thrown out of the security council and replaced with Japan?

2 ( +12 / -10 )

Im not taking sides with China, but most of you are missing the point. The point is :

“very wrong and dangerous” a view by “a few politicians” in Japan that their country was forced to surrender in 1945 solely because of the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

He isnt making this up. Many japanese politicians like Ishihara have been hell bent on changing history. Many Japanese have no idea what really happened in WW2 and are easily manipulated into thinking they were the victims. I often wonder what all those japanese are reading while on the train. I wouldnt be suprised if its some propaganda whitewash of history. You can see plenty of it on TV. . As Guru stated: hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers."

Those were brutal times, created by Japan. You cannot rewrite history; it is what it is. A new world order was created and a defeated Japan wasnt part of the deal until the U.S. wanted to use Japan to shut down communism in Asia. Japan is partly to blame for the rise of China as well as other Asian countries. The Japanese occupation was so brutal that it sparked a new self determination and nationalism in the region. China as a "growing threat to the region" is exactly what the Japanese rightist want, but its not what Japan needs.

6 ( +12 / -6 )

Guru29Oct. 09, 2013 - 05:35PM JST

You keep pasting the same lengthy comment, but you fail to show what act of Japan is in violation of the treaties you list and why. I hope you answer in a concise manner.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Japan isnt in any violation of treaties; the point is Japan is a johnny come lately to a world order already established after WW2.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Mike45

It seems that the Chinese Ambassador and you really think the world was conquered by China and US and that the rest of the world must obey them.

The real challenge the world faces now is whether the rest of the world can make China recognize the international laws and put China under the rule of international law.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

True, but China is only acting like a 1940 Japan; ignoring the world and throwing its weight around. Japan wants to do the same, but times have changed and its occupied by another country and being used by it for its purposes.

Japan could get out from under all this by using the initial nationalism momentum created by Abe and team to get a real economic recovery Once they are in the safety zone start engaging China and sending the Emperor on a state visit to China with an official apology and transparency about all attrocities that happened in WW2. Stop the visits to Yasukuni and all the other nonsense. Once this is documented, then there would be no excuse for China to bash Japan. As of now, they have every reason too. If Japan made a real effort, then the international community would stand behind them.

Prolonged nationalism by Japan serves no real purpose. It isolates them from trade and makes China more beligerant. They will always be a Japan that cant say no until they make real reforms.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

I do notice an interesting trend here. When a Japanese politician says something outrageous or provocative, it's that politician who is criticised. When a Chinese or Korean politician does the same, the whole country is ridiculed. Why is that? I don't support what the Chinese ambassador said, but just an observation.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

ANY one who understands BASIC WW2 history knows full and well they did not lose BECAUSE of the A-bombs. They lost LONG before that. Their navy and air force was gone, destroyed, decimated. They went from controlling nearly 30% of the world (air space and sea) to controlling nothing but the main land Japanese islands. Surrendering and loosing are two VERY differnt things. Japan lost. They just wouldn't surrender. The A-bomb was dropped to save Japanese lives and Allied lives (BTW The Kyushu invasion would have cost the Japanese FAR more lives and made iwajima and D-day pale in comparison... sorry I am an avid proponent for dropping the bombs. If you studied at all the size of the invasion the Allies were preparing, the size of the defense the Japanese had ready, and the brutal horrible things the Japanese government would have done at all costs to protect Kyushu, like training little children with bamboo and old men with homemade clay grenades. I mean... you go to the peace museams and they point out all the schools blown up. What they dont point out is those schools were not teaching math, they were teaching CHILDREN how to kill and would have forced children on the front line all across the country. D-day largest invasion ever in mankinds history. Operation Downfall was nearly TWICE the size of the D-day) two bombs ver an estimated 500,000 DEAD Allied troops and even TWICE that in Japanese).

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Japanese people had been brainwashed then. "Ichioku Gyokusai" was slogan. The population of Japan was used to be said Ichioku. To prepare for Gyokusai ( To be destroyed as beads), we had kechappu ( Tomato Ketchup) with us. Teachers instructed to put ketchup on breast of our school uniform (se-iiler-fuku) when American soldiers came. However, Pikadon (A-bomb) in Hiioshima came and Nagasaki ( noted for its Christina City with many people are kakure-kirishitan- hiding Christian), and Emperor's chokugo told us Japan surrendering, we did not have to use ketchup. Later TB epidemic came but American supplied penicilllin. Maybe rumore then, but we heard that Emperor decide3d to surrender because of pikadons.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

sky is blue, water is wet, China complains about Japan in some fashion.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

However, the a-bombs delivered the final death blow to an evil regime that was willing sacrifice nearly the entire population for the sake of one man: the emperor.

@JeffLee--You have posited two things here: One is that the regime was willing to sacrifice the population and the other that is that when two bombs killed a bunch of the population, they decided to quit. Its quite a mismatch.

In fact, the firebombing of Tokyo, several months before, killed more people than either bomb. So if mass death could stop them, why didn't it then? If mass death could not stop them, then why did Hiroshima and Nagasaki stop them? It does not jibe.

The Chinese did indeed rally to beat the Japanese back in Manchuria. Denying that is just a cold war propaganda ploy to not give the communists their due. Cold war is over. Can we just tell the truth now? That said though, the Chinese part was only a small part in that play.

I should think the invasion by the Soviets was the real death knell. Simple reason is that the Japanese knew the Soviets would not preserve the emperor but probably just kill him. To save the emperor from the Soviets, the Japanese surrendered to the Americans. It was a risk to be sure, but it was better than what the Soviets offered clearly.

Anyone who can put their nationalism aside for a second can see these things.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I think its comedy watching Japanese nationalist. Ishihara wants a Japan that cant say no, but all I see when he and other start with the China bashing are more alliances dependance and security treaties with the U.S. military and the occasional verbal spanking for making stupid remarks.

PM Noda was right when he said Ishihara was playing with the tail of tiger China and pissed it off. He should of left it alone and used logic and diplomacy. There are other ways to get what you want. Unfortuanetly, China is the new bully in the region and Japan is not in a position to contain it by its military.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

An ambassador needs to learn the history a bit more

It seems many of the readers of Japan Today need to learn a bit more history.

And definitely had nothing to do with China.

So wrong it's astounding. Just as about 80% of Germany's men and material were bogged down in the Soviet Union, about 75% of the Imperial Japanese Army was committed to defeating China. That meant the Allies only had to tackle about 1/4 of Japan's army (the Navy notwithstanding). China lost over 20 million people in the war. Their contribution to defeating Japan was immense, and it's a complete insult to say otherwise.

Of course not by Chinese Communist Party or Mao.

Again, completely wrong. Mao and the Chinese communist did in fact do the bulk of the fighting in Northern China and were much more effective against the Japanese that the Nationalist (the KMT). To quote Edwin Moise, in Modern China: A History...

"The Americans were favorably impressed. The CPC seemed less corrupt, more unified, and more vigorous in its resistance to Japan than the KMT. United States fliers shot down over North China ... confirmed to their superiors that the CPC was both strong and popular over a broad area."

The KMT were completely corrupt and ineffectual and spent more energy trying to fight the communists than the Japanese, despite a huge amount of aid from the US. When they were finally driven from China to Taiwan they massacred more 20,000 Taiwanese citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident ) something CNN doesn't commemorate annually.

The US and it's allies soundly defeated the Imperial Japanese Military and by the time of the Atomic Bombings Japan was on it's knees. But to forget or deny China's role in swallowing up hundreds of divisions of the Japanese Army in China, at the cost of millions, both military and civilian, is just simply wrong.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Even if the 21st century will come, there are Japanese people and many people who do not know East Asia.

Even if GHQ and a communist look down,The Emperor is still Japanese God also ancient times. It’s not brainwash. Many Japanese choose "it fights with an enemy and dies" from "surrender" from a "prisoner of war" spontaneously, A communist is excluded.

Japanese people can bear, even if 100 million Japanese people are killed in war. Although Imperial Japan was beaten by WWII, the war objectives "Independence of the Asia colony" attained.

A foreign country will not bear 100 million people's sacrifice. The Korean War, the Vietnam War, China-Vietnam War,Middle East War, war on Iraq, Afghan War, etc.

Probably, communist China and Korea fears Japan's re-armaments most. WWII is excepted,Chinese Empire has not defeated Imperial Japan once at 2600years. Korea was only a slave of Chinese Empire.

Communist China itself knows best. In order to stop rage of Japanese, there are only "a nuclear bomb" or ”the Emperor's order."

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@ Controlfreak

"Can we just tell the truth now?"

An excellent question, and that would surely solve allot of issues. For some reason this logic cannot be applied in japan. Ive searched in many books for the answer, and some authors have made an effort, but I have never been able to nail it. "In fact, the firebombing of Tokyo, several months before, killed more people than either bomb. So if mass death could stop them, why didn't it then? If mass death could not stop them, then why did Hiroshima and Nagasaki stop them? It does not jibe." Mass death for a hopeless cause....Another puzzeling question. Actually hiroshima and nagasaki did not stop them, it was hirohitos speech that did but I see your point. Truman latter used this man gods power to reconstruct Japan as he recongnized his role as a manipulator. The question of mass death for a single man, but then overnight, once the victors arrived, everything was ok. This boggles the mind as well.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

“I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

This Cui Tiankai is clearly saying that Japan needs to bow down to China... as clear as day. From the article he appears to believe that America and China (forgetting the Commonwealth forces of course) are the world's overlords, and that any country who fought as an Axis power in WW2 has no right to a military or even an international voice, despite the fact that the war ended in 1945 and Japan is no longer the country it was under its military rulers.

The world has moved on... former enemies are allies, former allies are enemies. The sooner China and S Korea can accept that the better it'll be for the entire region.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

When a Japanese politician says something outrageous or provocative, it's that politician who is criticised.

That's false and you know it. I've never seen so much extrapolating of blame as what goes on at JT anytime a j-pol opens his mouth about a controversial topic.

I think its comedy watching Japanese nationalist

Why are you talking about "Japanese nationalist" Mike when the article is clearly about a speech made by a mouthpiece for the CPC? I agree with the comedy bit though .... the funniest part is, a communist like this Cui fellow is probably so brainwashed he doesn't realize how ridiculous he and his ilk seem to the rest of the world.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Well the ambassador and his staff is not stupid. In the same article he managed to achieve positioning and branding of China as a leader in the international community (creating "we") and excluding Japan (the other, bad guy) by referring to some Japanese politicians and the ww2. If he could have avoided some of the clumsiness maybe it would have been a very interesting conversation. Basically strategic political warfare with the aim to politically push japan down on its knees. The systematic Chinese governmental aggression seem to be about the same strength as before but with different means.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

why not he learn Chinese history from 1930 ? and see his clothing looks like he just came from Philippines Cebu Provincial Detention and Rehabilitation Center (CPDRC).

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Masaki Miyamoto,

I would like to thank you for your most magnificant post. It indirectly supports many of the points I have made. Not to hate, but I was reading about where Japan now leads in math and reading. I guess they left out creative writing, philosophy, debate, speech and other essential skills required in order to present our ideas in a logical and coherrent manner. I guess all that gets squashed because participation in a group is more important.....

Trying to make sense of it- "Even if GHQ and a communist look down,The Emperor is still Japanese God also ancient times. It’s not brainwash. Many Japanese choose "it fights with an enemy and dies" from "surrender" from a "prisoner of war" spontaneously, A communist is excluded"

Did you know that McAurhur was actually acting as the emperor in his capacity during the occupation? many in the U.S. wanted the emperor prosecuted, but Truman saw how the Japanese people were easily manipulated by him so used him for a quick transistion. But my question is, if the Emperor is/was a god, why couldnt he just wave his tophat and say GHQ..begone! If you believe such an individual has divine powers, why would such a god allow for so much death and suffering? Is death and suffering part of the logic I am missing? You say many Japanese choose it fights and dies with an enemy, I guess it means better to die than surrender? But you surrendered on the USS Missouri and your now occupied by the former enemy? Im sorry i dont follow the reasoning. Its better to surrender and be occupied and suffer than to.....?

"Japanese people can bear, even if 100 million Japanese people are killed in war. Although Imperial Japan was beaten by WWII, the war objectives "Independence of the Asia colony" attained. "

I guess it means that the Western Caucasin powers were driven out. Were they? McAuthur seemed to look Western and Caucasin to me. I dont get the logic. Not only were you defeated, you were occupied by the very people you were seeking to drive out..according to your objectives. You succeeded in creating a new enemy, China and alienating both Koreas.....?

"A foreign country will not bear 100 million people's sacrifice. The Korean War, the Vietnam War, China-Vietnam War,Middle East War, war on Iraq, Afghan War, etc."

refering to the U.S. and its involvement...somewhat agreed but didnt you do the same thing? how many millions sacrificed in WW2 for what purpose? Love to hear the logic on this one.

'Communist China itself knows best. In order to stop rage of Japanese, there are only "a nuclear bomb" or ”the Emperor's order. '

I think you got that one backwards. Japan is fearing China. Whats with the whole emperor thing...didnt you copy the same system from ancient China?

Geez.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Let number speaks for itself:

Japanese casualties during WW2:

In China : 1-2 millions; against Soviet: 83,000; US atomic bomb at Hiroshima : 90-160,000; US atomic bomb at Nagasaki: 80,000.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Japan spends 46% of all their revenue to pay interest on their public debt. They dont have the money to challenge China militarily. Japan is a has been country. They will be second tier because of their spending habits over the past 50 years. China is booming economically and they will dominate - that is fact, not desire.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Cui Tiankai should reflect on the policies of Communist China, including their occupation of Tibet and aggressive demands on other countries, before pontificating about the policies of Japan at an American university. Talk about being misguided.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Can we have an edit post function please?

You do. It's called PREVIEW. Use it, read it, correct it, and then hit SUBMIT,

4 ( +4 / -0 )

And we're bringing this up again for which reason?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

pumpkin: "Jeez, so tired of hearing about WW11 it was over 70 years ago for goodness sake. Will it never end. Just drop it and move on Asia"

So, yeah, let's just stop those atomic bombings commemoration ceremonies now! That was such a long time ago! Forget it already, right? Or wait... are you one of those people that think we should forget all of Japan's wrong doings but strictly adhere to anniversaries where they were the 'victims'?

The man makes some valid points in his speech, and deserves to be heard, not shut down because it happened "70 years ago for goodness sake" while you're off on your way to commemorate the bombing of Hiroshima.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

@Qamar

"And we're bringing this up again for which reason?"

Misinformation is recipe for misadventure.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Japan surrendered because Russia invaded. Had nothing to do with the bombs being dropped or the so called peace loving people of the world. And definitely had nothing to do with China.

Decision to actually surrender was in fact, Soviet's entry and their declaration to engage war against Japan. The atomic bombings itself had very little to do with it but the previous air raids as well as invasion of Okinawa contributed to the decision.

As for China, I agree with you. They were soundly defeated and posed no threat to ever set foot in Japan.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Mitch Cohen

I do notice an interesting trend here. When a Japanese politician says something outrageous or provocative, it's that politician who is criticised [sic]. When a Chinese or Korean politician does the same, the whole country is ridiculed.

You're slightly off there. It's actually: When a Japanese politician says something outrageous or provocative, hordes of Chinese citizens protest, start violent riots, boycott Japanese products, destroy Japanese businesses (even ones owned and operated by their fellow countrymen), and damage the Japanese Embassy and consulates. When a Chinese or Korean politician does the same, the Japanese they.... wait, you hear those crickets? Yup, there's hardly a reaction except for measured comments by politicians and the press. How do you like that trend?

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

You're absolutely right! Please set an example first by apologizing to the Tibetans. Perhaps then you'll get an apology from the Japanese. Talk is cheap Mr. Cui!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

USNinJapan2:

you have missed the point. The Japanese say things to provoke the Chinese or Koreans, who are ultra sensitive due to their occupation by a brutal oppressor; Japan.

The Japanese look down on Chinese and Koreans (read Miyamotos post) thus dont care what the Chinese or Koreans do/think as many Japanese consider them primitive

As Japans image begins to diminish in Asia, the roles might start to reverse. It is in japans best interest to gets its act together.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

@USNinJapan2 and @nigelboy

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Japan's invasion of China was strategic miscalculation. Japan only scored tactic victories. At the beginning of the war, The Kwantung Army (Japanese: 関東軍), the largest and most prestigious army group of the Imperial Japanese Army, was victorious. But after so many years fighting in China, at the end of war, when Soviet army attacked, it only took less than one month to be wiped out.

We are talking about 1 million strong Kwantung army. That was no small feat.

In fact, at the end of war, before the atomic bombs dropped, before the Soviet army attacked, Japan army was on the way to be defeated.

" They were soundly defeated and posed no threat to ever set foot in Japan" shows how little you know about the truth. 1-2 million Japanese army were cleared on Chinese land by Chinese. That wasn't a threat, that was 40% of Japanese casualty.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

It's surprising that so many readers are unaware of the history in China during the years they were occupied by Japan, since war on China sapped Japan's strength to the point that the Allies were able to fight their way from the South and Central Pacific to the Marianas.

This allowed the US to expand on bombing the Japanese mainland exponentially. Until the Marianas, bombing runs had to be conducted from China. Tinian, of course, is where Enola Gay took off from.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

mulan

Why is your last post addressed to me? You've obviously mistaken me for another poster.

" They were soundly defeated and posed no threat to ever set foot in Japan"

This is a true assessment. China did not have a Navy capable of transporting an Army invasion force across the East China Sea and the Sea of Japan. They indeed defeated the IJA on mainland China in the closing months of WWII, but there was no way for them to have gone beyond their shores to ever threaten Japan proper. Surprised you didn't possess that little piece of knowledge.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Putting aside the Chinese ambassador's motivation for saying something like this, it is clear that this topic unnerves a lot of people. Why is it so difficult for some Japanese to accept the fact that Chinese soldiers and civilians did play an integral role in defeating Japan during World War II? Japanese even go so far as to label the conflict "The Pacific War" as if what was happening in mainland China was a sideshow. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Furthermore, this idea that Chinese ever intended to invade Japan is ludicrous. Most Chinese wished to evict the Japanese from their home territory and nothing more. To bring up that matter as proof that China was militarily impotent is like saying that Vietnamese communists never posed a threat to the American mainland during the Vietnam War, so obviously that means American armed forces were never truly defeated in Vietnam. In both America and Japan, many are still in deep denial about how soundly their country's armed forces were defeated at the hands of guerrilla partisans on the Asian mainland. The recent passing of General Vo Nguyen Giap revealed this tendency again in the USA, with many commenters insisting that Giap never actually defeated the Americans in battle.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@USNinJapan2

why did I address you ? because "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

First you understanding of China is wrong and dangerous. Chinese is not against Japanese and their business. Tell me which countries that Japanese want to do business with the most ? There were some criminal activities against Japan's interests in China. But that was an expression of anger triggered by Japan's unjustified actions against Chinese interests. But, those crimes are not condoned by Chinese people. The criminals were arrested and send to jail. Most business are safe and profit and Japaneses are safe.

Second, you don't understand Chinese. Even China had capability of crossing the sea, China still would not invade Japan. That is China, weak or strong. In fact, Chinese people let Japanese soldiers go home after they surrendered, safely. China even pardoned Japanese war criminals at the end of war.

I feel sorry for Japanese people for their educational system, pitiful.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Can somebody please explain to me why the Chinese are so sensitive to the occupation by the Japanese? Didn't the British occupy China (Hong Kong) during the Opium War? They don't seem to careless about that part of history and is rarely mentioned.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

DURING & IMMEDIATLY after the war, a lot of land had been confiscated from Japan & the Isle of Okinawa. Much of that land is not in control o Japan.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Digging into old wounds China is not helping to heal them but make them worse.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Well Ambassador Tiankai is not exactly off the mark.

After we dropped the bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki the Japanese still vowed to fight on.

It was the point in the War where The U.S. declared if Emperor Hirohito did not surrender, then he would be declared a War Criminal and Hanged by the neck if captured by the U.S. Forces.

It was after that declaration by The U.S. that the Emperor signaled an unconditional surrender he signed onboard the USS MISSOURI in Tokyo Bay.

That brought an end to all hostilities between The United States and the former Empire of Japan.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Mulan- by that I meant that it is really time to stop bringing up the past at every opportunity. As long as people focus on differences, they will never ever unite.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This Cui Tiankai is clearly saying that Japan needs to bow down to China...

He was merely advising the Japanese to respect and comply with the various WWII peace treaties/ agreements that Japan entered into with the international community that enabled the ending of WWII. These include at least the Potsdam Agreement, Japanese Instrument of Surrender, San Francisco Peace Treaty and etc.

You keep pasting the same lengthy comment, but you fail to show what act of Japan is in violation of the treaties you list and why. I hope you answer in a concise manner.

Reclaiming of territories that Japan lost to the Allies according to the various WWII peace treaties/ agreements is no violation to you? Japan received two nukes from the Americans for incompliance to the Potsdam Declaration, how many nukes do you want Japan to receive this round?

In fact, at the end of war, before the atomic bombs dropped, before the Soviet army attacked, Japan army was on the way to be defeated.

Yes, Japan started to lose its war in China by the early 1940s simply because it was overstretched.

Emperor Hirohito actually believed Japan would need only 3 months to conquer the whole of China. However, after 50 years of invasion (1894-1945), Japan only managed to control the coastal region or eastern part of China. That's only because China didn't have a navy whereas Japan had one of the strongest navy in the world with around 10 aircraft carriers.

On land, the Japanese soldiers actually didn't have much advantage against the Chinese soldiers who were poorly trained, poorly equipped, and constituted of mainly newly recruited semi-literate peasants who had little knowledge of modern warfare.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The pacific war is over, most of the troops are dead, most of the people affected as well. History was supposed to teach us not to fall into the same mistakes as before.

However in the USA our people forget the Nisei were interned and their lands/goods confiscated - never to be returned. where the German Americans were allowed to remain in the country free

In Asia- countries easily forget their actions and complicity with Japan- in way similar to the French do in Europe with the Nazi's, blaming everything on the enemy.

The Past is the Past, the sins of the Grandfather cannot be passed to the Grandson - nor can it be expected that the generations following will automatically follow the path of a country that followed a different ideal than today

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Japan's decision to surrender was only partially motivated by the atomic weapons. The bigger cause was that the Soviet Union was entering the fray in the Pacific on the 15th. Japan had already heard what Soviet troops had done to the German troops and civilians in their push to Berlin, and Japan could not withstand a similar push into Hokkaido and points South. It would have been another massacre with Japan on the receiving end. China... wasn't a consideration.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@JeffLee

The British and Indians soundly defeated them in Burma, ending their ambitions on continental SE Asia.

You conveniently forget Gen Joseph Stilwell and Gen. Claire Chennault, and the fact that the Indians under the advisement of Ghandi refused to enter the war unless the British granted them independence.

@Shawnth

Japan surrendered because Russia invaded. Had nothing to do with the bombs being dropped or the so called peace loving people of the world. And definitely had nothing to do with China

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan on August 9th (after the bombing of Nagasaki). After that date the Japanese were still trying to use the Soviets as mediators to a negotiated settlement.

The Emperor's concession speech specifically mentioned "new terrible weapons possessed by the enemy" nothing about Russia.

Get your facts straight.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

nandakandamanda says: "By name and by nature Japan has been pacifist since WWII, in fact so pacifist that Korea and China seem to have taken repeated delight in baiting her for her neutrality. If Japan does eventually turn warlike I will know exactly who to blame".

How ridiculoous. And transparent. Trying to laying the groundworks for future aggression already, eh? If my neighbor punches me during an argument, my neighbor is to blame for turning violent. Know that no one is fooled. If Japan turns warlike, the world will blame Japan.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

How misinformed Japan and the world.

Japan never conquered China and Chinese people. Japan miscalculated the war and when it found it that it needed much more military and resources to fight in China, her economy went down miserably.

During the war, 80% of Japanese army was in China. Japan wanted to turn Manchuria to an economic power base, she never succeeded. The reason ? resistance of Chinese people.

Japan had grabbed some Chinese lands, that was all she could do. That wasn't a victory in any sense because Japanese army were constantly harassed and fought.

Japanese economy simply couldn't afford a war with China.That was why she failed in the end.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Yes, Japan is "pacifist"... even though it actually has a very large and capable military. Its "pacifism" is an illusion, mostly caused by the naive and blind left, which followed after the US occupation under MacArther.

Can somebody please explain to me why the Chinese are so sensitive to the occupation by the Japanese? Didn't the British occupy China (Hong Kong) during the Opium War? They don't seem to careless about that part of history and is rarely mentioned.

Sorry but the Chinese will bring up the Opium war when Westerners criticize them...

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

However in the USA our people forget the Nisei were interned and their lands/goods confiscated - never to be returned. where the German Americans were allowed to remain in the country free. In Asia- countries easily forget their actions and complicity with Japan- in way similar to the French do in Europe with the Nazi's, blaming everything on the enemy.

Its an excellent point praack.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

China and Japan are being pushed to extremes because they are approaching major shifts in the power holders of their governments. In Japan the right is beating the nationalism and China is increasing national pride but also distracting the public from China’s domestic problems. The mutual economic gains that these two large trading partners get from one another will keep them from seeing relations get worse or even breaking out in open conflict. In the end money is the name of the game for the China and Japan. Once the shifts in power settles down for both countries, rationality will prevail on both sides and the economic prosperity that these countries provide for one another will not be so easily thrown to the wind as their politicians would have one currently believe.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

“I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

The irony is strong in this one.

Rising powers challenges the international order. Japan is a status quo power. China is an emerging/rising power.

To wit: I think politicians in China have to realize this is the pos-WWII international order. You can challenge that, if you want to fight the US.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

During the war, Japan looted and damaged Chinese property $400 billions, by war time money, 50 times of Japan's gdp.

Japan never was capable to fight China, all she did was brutality and crudity to Chinese people.

How much money of 1937 is worth today ?

Japan owes China big.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Mulan

You bring up an interesting point. Some (like Ian Baruma) have speculated that Japan's War loot played an important part in the initial capitalization of Japanese firms in the late 1940s.

Unfortunately, no way to know. As no records are forthcoming. Funny that.

Regardless, back on topic....

1 ( +4 / -3 )

mulanOct. 10, 2013 - 05:32AM JST During the war, Japan looted and damaged Chinese property $400 billions, by war time money, 50 times of Japan's gdp.

But why didn't the Chinese goverment protect their own people after the war? Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when China was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years; the worldwide death toll of the Second World War was 55 million.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@JTDanMan

Thanks. You know war has cost, people should know that. I wish Japan and China good.

@sfjp330

I doubt your information 100%. The population at the time was 400 million. If 45 million died because of killing or lack of protection, that was 10%. The average death rate of today is 10%.

You simply didn't do any calculation.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Why do we all have to care about the comments of one uneducated Chinese? Only because he made it to ambassador? Why do we have to care about that uneducated nation? I have been there twice, and I have never seen a less civilized and uneducated country before(and I have visited enough this world countries for sure). China might be a strong economy if we are to believe the propaganda, but are still ventured behind the civilization in Japan.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

The KMT were completely corrupt and ineffectual and spent more energy trying to fight the communists than the Japanese, despite a huge amount of aid from the US. When they were finally driven from China to Taiwan they massacred more 20,000 Taiwanese citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/228_Incident ) something CNN doesn't commemorate annually.

Mind telling me how many the Communists killed during the Cultural Revolution / Great Leap Forward??

3 ( +3 / -0 )

What a bizarre and sad example of the ongoing propaganda attempts of the current Facist Regime of China to try to re write history and to take power over others by putting them down and belittling them in history. What a sad example he has no business being an ambassador to anywhere.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Putting aside the Chinese ambassador's motivation for saying something like this, it is clear that this topic unnerves a lot of people. Why is it so difficult for some Japanese to accept the fact that Chinese soldiers and civilians did play an integral role in defeating Japan during World War II? Japanese even go so far as to label the conflict "The Pacific War" as if what was happening in mainland China was a sideshow. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I guess you and I differ in terms of the definition "intergral role" considering that fact that Japanese death was estimated at around 455,700 while KMT 中華民國行政賠償委員會在第四屆國民參政會第三次大會上的報告. reports 1,328,501. Japan pretty much conquered the capital as well as strategic air base up until April of 1945 when the assistance of U.S. kicked in around while at the same time, best IJA units were diverted towards the efforts in the Pacific.

Hence, when you look at the overall picture, Japan was defeated in the Pacific war and not the Sino-Japan war. But since both fall under World War II, and KMT happens to be part of the Allieds, I guess the current PRC mouthpiece can state those things. At least it's not "reaching" as Koreans claiming that they were part of the Allieds.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

The Emperor's concession speech specifically mentioned "new terrible weapons possessed by the enemy" nothing about Russia.

@techall--That speech was a speech from a politician to the people. You put way too much stock in it. Try to remember that the emperor was in the process of saving his own neck. Also, spoke about saving millions of his subjects. You don't believe that do you? Come on, that was just for the ears of the people, designed to keep them on his side.

Here is a bit from wiki:

With the support of Minister of War Anami, they (the army) started preparing to impose martial law on the nation, to stop anyone attempting to make peace.[80] Hirohito told Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us."[81]

Gross over-emphasis of the importance of the nukes in the decision is either nationalism or novelty factor. It was the Soviet entry in the war that truly put the emperor's neck in a noose, not the bombs. And saving the emperor took precedence over everything else, particularly to the emperor himself!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Nigelboy, you have some strange ideas about war. Numbers of battle deaths don't determine who is victorious and who is defeated. According to your weird logic, Germany wasn't actually defeated by the USSR in World War II because the latter suffered far greater casualties. Huh?

And are Japanese soldiers just cannon fodder to you? Japan suffers more than 450,000 battle deaths in China and you just brush that off as insignificant and not integral to the combined war effort that wore down Japan?

You sound exactly like an anti-communist American who is in denial about the Vietnam War. Sure there was no decisive battle, nothing like Stalingrad, in which Chinese forces defeated Japanese forces--but guerrilla war is never meant to be waged in that manner. And it's hilarious how you imply that the Pacific war and the Sino-Japan war were totally unrelated--I mean, the former was initiated by Japan in 1941 because it could NOT prevail in the latter conflict.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

nigelboy... still has right-wing logic.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Japan has apologized for causing “tremendous damage and suffering” in the 20th century, leading some officials in Tokyo to accuse Beijing and Seoul of intentionally keeping tensions on a simmer.

There is no question they do that - it's almost a daily occurrence. Obviously there is plenty of political currency in maintaining a strong nationalist stance in those two countries.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

China doesn't ask Japan to apologize for the war repeatedly. What China does is to object the repeated visit of Yasukuni Shrine by Japanese PM. I think many Japanese object it too.

As for the WWII, Japan's defeat is combination of US, Russia and China. But without US and Russia, Japan would be defeated, may take longer time.

Just look at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, it isn't difficult to imagine what would be the situation in China-Japan war.

By the spring of 1938 Japan realized that it was an indefinite war. Twenty new army divisions were being created and 2.5 billion yen had been appropriated.

"Chinese were hostile to the Japanese as evidenced by widespread guerrilla activity against Japanese military and economic targets. This activity forced Japan to station a large number of troops in the rear of China to protect railroads, bridges and other important economic assets. The sheer size of China meant these troops could only ever be spread thinly and therefore they were deployed either in the cities or to put down the numerous flare ups in resistance. Japan could benefit economically from its position in China only through the use of its military, a military insufficient in size for the job."

"The mere attempt paralyzed Japan's export sector as resources were diverted to military production that ultimately decreased its ability to import needed materials. In 1938 the vital railway and ship building industries were forced to decrease steel use by twenty five and fifteen percent respectively. Heavy restrictions were also placed on luxury goods imports as the foreign currency saved was required to pay for strategic materials. This caused living standards to decline and conditions in Japan's farming and fishing villages thus remained miserable throughout the 1930s. "

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Nigelboy, you have some strange ideas about war. Numbers of battle deaths don't determine who is victorious and who is defeated. According to your weird logic, Germany wasn't actually defeated by the USSR in World War II because the latter suffered far greater casualties. Huh?

I'm not just going by the casualty numbers alone. I'm talking about the IJA continued conquest of capitol cities (it seems KMT kept changing their capitol) and air bases. Operation Ichigo basically proved the inability of Chiang Kai Shek's ability to where the other Allied members lost faith in him as well as change the strategy to defeat Japan.

And it's hilarious how you imply that the Pacific war and the Sino-Japan war were totally unrelated--I mean, the former was initiated by Japan in 1941 because it could NOT prevail in the latter conflict.

Who said they were unrelated? It was so bad to a point where in 1944, Chiang kai Shek used Miao Pin as a mediator for immediate cease fire and to broker the IJA forces to joint them in the fight against Communist.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

"I'm talking about the IJA continued conquest of capitol cities (it seems KMT kept changing their capitol) and air bases"

Once again, so what? You don't prevail in a long, drawn-out guerrilla war by capturing major cities and air bases. Any American military commander during the Vietnam War would have told you that. But keep prattling on, I know you can't accept the idea of China's role in defeating Japan (by contrast, you appear almost desperate to push the idea of the USSR's decisive role in defeating Japan at the war's end, in order to dismiss the impact of the US atomic bombings).

0 ( +2 / -2 )

ControlFreakOct. 09, 2013 - 03:42PM JST Not only China, but also the U.S.A. has recently and officially taken Japan to task for trying to pretend the history did >not happen. How can anyone trust such a country? You may purchase their goods, but trust them you do not.

Only a few politicians eager for Korean-American votes or on Chinese payroll. Rest assured we trust Japan FAR MORE than Communist China.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

@Ossan

Obama invited Xi to US for a private 2 day meeting, never happened in history. Did he invite Abe ? In fact, Obama refused to see Abe several times.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Once again, so what? You don't prevail in a long, drawn-out guerrilla war by capturing major cities and air bases. Any American military commander during the Vietnam War would have told you that. But keep prattling on, I know you can't accept the idea of China's role in defeating Japan (by contrast, you appear almost desperate to push the idea of the USSR's decisive role in defeating Japan at the war's end, in order to dismiss the impact of the US atomic bombings).

Wow. Even Chiang Kai Shek wanted to pull out but FDR demanded that his forces fight for U.S. wanted only "unconditional surrender". For some unknown reason, you pull a Vietnam War analogy from another era, completely different foreign policy which limits the use of armed forces, as well as more media coverage and transparency where the actual necessity in the involvement in Vietnam split the country. As to the Soviet impact, this was already discussed in a different article couple years ago. The decision to surrender was pretty much finalized as a result of the Imperial Conference of August 9th prior to the official Navy/Army Joint report of Hiroshima bombings. Heck. U.S. didn't think it would end because the air raids continued until August 15th.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

“Japan was defeated in the Second World War not just by two atomic bombs dropped by the U.S. but by all the peace-loving, anti-fascist countries and people—the peoples of the United Nations—including China and the United States, of course,” Cui said."

Must be position appointment time, got to keep on Xi's good side or you too may become part of the new purge.

He seems to have forgotten that in 1945 the PRC wasn't even a nation. From 1912 to 1946 China was a pishposh mix of Republic controlled states and petty warlords controlling different region.

He should have said that if it wasn't for fascist Chiang Kai-shek helping the allies during WWII the war wouldn't gone the way it did.

But, if he would have said that the next thing that would have happened to him was a phone call, trail and prompt execution.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Guru29Oct. 10, 2013 - 02:40AM JST

Reclaiming of territories that Japan lost to the Allies according to the various WWII peace treaties/ agreements is no violation to you?

You have not proven that Japan lost Senkakus. As I have shown number of times here, the 49 countries that signed San Francisco Peace Treaty are of the understanding that Senkaus are included in "such minor islands as we determine" and that Japan maintained Senkakus. That is why the US returned Senkakus to Japan in 1972. If you respect laws, you should show why Japan lost Senkakus in spite of SFPT.

In addition, China must show its effective control of Senkakus before 1895, or claiming Senkakus would be in violation of Cairo Declaration. If it could, Japan will concede Senkakus to China.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

"For some unknown reason, you pull a Vietnam War analogy from another era"

Hardly unknown. China 1937-45 was Japan's own Vietnam, except worse. As the USA got bogged down in Vietnam in the 1960s, Japanese politicians like Ohira Masayoshi (foreign minister and later prime minister) made this comparison and thought about expressing their concerns to the USA but did not.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Hardly unknown. China 1937-45 was Japan's own Vietnam, except worse. As the USA got bogged down in Vietnam in the 1960s, Japanese politicians like Ohira Masayoshi (foreign minister and later prime minister) made this comparison and thought about expressing their concerns to the USA but did not.

You haven't stated anything relevant to support your poor analogy. Bringing up a prior PM won't help either.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@CH3CHO

China and Taiwan didn't take part in San Francisco Peace Treaty therefore they both didn't recognize it. It is a known fact.

Which law says that you have to show effective control before 1895 to claim Senkakus/DiaoYu ? You keep spread misinformation here and again. All you need is to show that it was discovered by China first and under China's administrative management, aka claimed. Both have been done. Now tell Abe to concede.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

"You haven't stated anything relevant to support your poor analogy. Bringing up a prior PM won't help either"

Oh come on, as if you of all people have an objective, unbiased perspective here. And why doesn't bringing up former PM Ohira help? Unlike you (I'm guessing), he actually lived through the World War II period and saw uncomfortable parallels between US intervention in Vietnam in the 1960s and Japan's own disastrous intervention in China.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Oh come on, as if you of all people have an objective, unbiased perspective here. And why doesn't bringing up former PM Ohira help? Unlike you (I'm guessing), he actually lived through the World War II period and saw uncomfortable parallels between US intervention in Vietnam in the 1960s and Japan's own disastrous intervention in China.

There were and are hundred of thousands of Japanese that fit that criteria. May I suggest posting exactly what he said for perhaps he may have explained it little better which lead up to this comment. Certainly better than you repeating the same thing without any support.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

mulanOct. 10, 2013 - 09:46AM JST

China and Taiwan didn't take part in San Francisco Peace Treaty therefore they both didn't recognize it. It is a known fact.

Right. But Taiwan signed Treaty of Taipei in1952, in which Taiwan did not claim Senkakus. As I have written here number of times, Peoples Republic of China signed China Japan Joint Communique in 1972, in which China did not claim Senkakus while Senkakus were under Japanese occupation. By failing to claim Senkakus, PRC and RoC consented to the disposal of Senkakus by Sanfrancisco Peace Treaty and state of war between China and Japan were all resolved.

Which law says that you have to show effective control before 1895 to claim Senkakus/DiaoYu ? You keep spread misinformation here and again. All you need is to show that it was discovered by China first and under China's administrative management, aka claimed. Both have been done. Now tell Abe to concede.

Showing the islands were under China's administrative management before 1895 is same as showing the islands were under effective control of China before 1895. Go ahead and show it.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

'You point a finger back far enough, and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two.'

It's interesting that people seem more interested in arguing about the he-did-this-she-did-that than 1.) Understanding it's all manipulation by politicians to distract people and 2.) Focusing on reconciliation and mutual understanding.

What's more important, saving face or ensuring man's survival?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@CH3CHO

If you are interested in Senkaku?DiaoYu issue, you should study more of it and US, China and Japan views, not only your personal Abe view.

When US decide to transfer the administrative right to Japan, Taiwan and China protested. Diplomatic protest is a way of claim. Thus, US takes no position on the sovereignty.

When Japan and China signed treaty in 1972, Tanaka tried to ask Zhou enlai about the issue, zhou told Tanaka that if he wanted to talk about it, the treaty would have to be delayed. Tanaka understand it and said that is enough. This is the way that showed that both Japan and China have wisdom to find a way to put aside the dispute. Since then, both sides kept promise between the two men until Noda "purchased" them.

In case you don't know history, Tanaka and Zhou were PM of Japan and China at that time, respectively.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Masswipe: "Nigelboy, you have some strange ideas about war."

They're not limited to just war, unfortunately.

nigelboy: Saying they surrendered because of the Russian invasion is too simple. It was not the only factor, but a big one -- they much prefered the option of American treatment after surrender than the prospect of working in the gulags and being forevermore Russia. Still, they were already on the verge of surrender, largely because the war of attrition was not working (hence, though white-washed from your textbooks, the forced suicides in Okinawa) and Japan was afraid of a full-scale invasion by the US as well. AND the atomic bombings.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

They are correct in a way, but the contributions of China were minor compared to the United States Marines, Navy, and Air Corps, the Australians, Brits, Nepalese, Indians etc. I and I am sure many other westerners living in Japan wish that China would go back to hiding under a rock. The rest of the world would be a better place.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Sorry I forgot Canada!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Pretty poor English for an Ambassador.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

mulanOct. 10, 2013 - 11:10AM JST

When Japan and China signed treaty in 1972, Tanaka tried to ask Zhou enlai about the issue, zhou told Tanaka that if he wanted to talk about it, the treaty would have to be delayed. Tanaka understand it and said that is enough.

So, you admit that nothing about Senkakus is written in China Japan Joint Communique, even though Japanese Prime Minister offered to compromise on Senkakus. You admit that Zhou could not get any deal on Senkakus from Tanaka by refusing to talk about it. There was no deal , there was no promise, there was not even any protest from China, and China remained silent on Senkakus during the Joint Communique talks. That is about it. China lost Senkakus. Silence on the side of China cannot be translated as an agreement between China and Japan that Senkakus are disputed.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Mulan

What is your proof that China 'owned' the Senkaku Islands before 1895?

I'd really like to see it.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Um, duh? They took on the world with a tiny number of resources, and lost big. They believed their own B.S. about the glory of their arms, and didn't realize it was all about logistics, resources, etc. which America as 25x of compared to Japan (going by land area).

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Peter:

it wasnt only about resources; Japan made many tatical errors. Japan had sourced most of its needs from surrounding countries it occupied. They didnt think it neccessary to provide escorts for the returning supply ships so they were easy pickings for U.S. submarines. Pearl Harbor is another puzzeling tatical error, as it accomplished little. The fuel storage tanks were left untouched and the carrier fleet was out on the day of attack. There were numerous other mistakes they made in the phillipines, midway, but none were because of lack of supplies during their glory years of the war. Japan had the best navy and carrier force in the world, best trained pilots, and by many accounts should of won the war. The battleship Yamamoto was the largest battleship with the longest range of any ship. If japan would of been able to hold what it had occupied, then they would of won.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

If you try and use civil logic on the PRC's internet water army you will face the impossible wall of paid ignorance.

Please remember, if they agree with you then they will face the wrath of Mao Zedong part two, better known as Emperor Xi.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

nigelboy: Saying they surrendered because of the Russian invasion is too simple. It was not the only factor, but a big one -- they much prefered the option of American treatment after surrender than the prospect of working in the gulags and being forevermore Russia. Still, they were already on the verge of surrender, largely because the war of attrition was not working (hence, though white-washed from your textbooks, the forced suicides in Okinawa) and Japan was afraid of a full-scale invasion by the US as well. AND the atomic bombings.

Smith. I suggest you read my first post on this article. Secondly, you are in no position to talk about textbooks when you have yet to prove that you'd read one. For instance, your statement that Japan had some sort of knowledge how U.S. would of treated Japan a lot better that of the Soviets are based on hindsight. The mere fact that you ignore or completely oblivious to the fact that U.S. conducted air raids to over 200 cities in Japan as well as Battle of Okinawa where U.S.fired close to 3 million rounds of amunition (Typhoon of Steel) with no regard for civilian safety, I seriously doubt Japan even contemplated on which nation was going to "treat" them better at that time.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Japan, officially pacifist since the war, has been seeking a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council, whose makeup reflects power dynamics in 1945. China, now the only Asian nation with veto power, has adamantly opposed Japan’s bid.

Somehow it feels strange the PRC with an administration that cannot control corruption and human rights violations, that does not have a shred of democracy, appoints a 'diplomat' with the audacity of dictating what Japan should realize. Does this man actually know what's going on in his own country? And of course his platform is outside Japan. Wonder what is going on in that brain.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

For instance, your statement that Japan had some sort of knowledge how U.S. would of treated Japan a lot better that of the Soviets are based on hindsight.

@Nigelboy--Indeed it is. Its the hindsight about how differently the western allies and the Soviets treated the Germans in both war and surrender, the Germans having surrendered back in early May 1945. Imperial Japan had quite a clear picture of where they were most likely to receive favorable treatment and where they were more likely to turned into a slave nation and have the emperor's head on a pike.

I seriously doubt Japan even contemplated on which nation was going to "treat" them better at that time.

You have got to be joking. For so many Japanese, including those in the leadership, it was all about the emperor. If they did not think of themselves, they certainly thought of him when contemplating surrender.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Well I for one am wondering why these statements were released at a visit to the forum. I haven’t heard that a few politicians actually say so but I would certainly expect it to happen in a democracy. Is he referring to Abe? If not, since when are such ignorant statements dangerous? Something smells very weird about this. This is why I think there is something else behind these headlines. What would be a possible effect if he and all others with similar messages manage to plant this kind of information in media and convince people that they make sense? Stay on your feet’s Japan.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Regardless, the bombs certainly did end it.

Or was the timing of the surrender, uh, just a coincidence....?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Nigelboy--Indeed it is. Its the hindsight about how differently the western allies and the Soviets treated the Germans in both war and surrender, the Germans having surrendered back in early May 1945. Imperial Japan had quite a clear picture of where they were most likely to receive favorable treatment and where they were more likely to turned into a slave nation and have the emperor's head on a pike.

Where do you get this? Can you cite me a telegram where the conditions of German POW were relayed to the Japanese government?  Heck. Even the Japanese government wasn't aware until NOVEMBER of 1945 that the IJA units were sent to Siberia. In fact, only after the U.S. intervention as a mediator in December of 1946 were they were able to allow ONE Socialist lawmaker who had ties with the Soviets, to inspect one of the labor camps.

You have got to be joking. For so many Japanese, including those in the leadership, it was all about the emperor. If they did not think of themselves, they certainly thought of him when contemplating surrender.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course the heads of Japanese government were worried about the status of the emperor. And since U.S. was the forefront of Potsdam Declaration, Japan's goal was to accept them on the condition that the Emperor status remains. During which time, the Japanese government was still working towards convincing Soviets to act as a mediator to the rest of the Allieds for Peace agreement. (Until August 8, 1945 5 pm when the Soviet Foreign Minister informed the Japanse Ambassador of their intent to declare war on Japan)

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@JTDanMan--Hiroshima was Aug 6. Nagasaki and the entry of the Soviets into the war were both on Aug 9. The emperor called for surrender on Aug 15 but that was an instant surrender. The last air combat between Japanese fighters and American bombers was on Aug 18. Fighting with the Soviets continued until September.

So no, the timing of the bombs and surrender was not coincidence. The bombs are just another piece of the puzzle that led to surrender. But acting like the bombs were the the one and only thing that gave us surrender is nothing more than western cold war propaganda designed to emphasize American might while downplaying the contribution of the communists, ie, the communist Chinese (later PRC) and the Soviets.

The entry of the Soviets into the war played a huge part, quite possibly more than the bombs. Failure to understand that is just cold war indoctrination speaking. I know, because it took me a while to see it myself. And I know why it took time despite how reasonable the explanation is.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Control Freak

I didn't write the bombs were the one and only thing that forced Japan to surrender.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Can you cite me a telegram where the conditions of German POW were relayed to the Japanese government?

From an age of world-wide shortwave radio, you insist on a telegram to prove that Japan was not in the dark about events of the world at the time???

Even if that were somehow true, Japan had an ambassador in Germany communicating with Japan until at least April 1945. How could they not know the difference between the treatment of POWS by the western allies and the Soviets? This stuff is obvious, and your demand of proof on paper is tantamount to insisting Julius Caesar did not exist because you never saw a photo of him! Get real man!

Of course the heads of Japanese government were worried about the status of the emperor. And since U.S. was the forefront of Potsdam Declaration, Japan's goal was to accept them on the condition that the Emperor status remains.

And if they could have gotten better conditions out of the Soviets, and believed the Soviets could keep the western allies out of Japan, there is no doubt they would have surrendered to the Soviets.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

From an age of world-wide shortwave radio, you insist on a telegram to prove that Japan was not in the dark about events of the world at the time???

In other words, you "assume". That's what I thought.

Even if that were somehow true, Japan had an ambassador in Germany communicating with Japan until at least April 1945. How could they not know the difference between the treatment of POWS by the western allies and the Soviets? This stuff is obvious, and your demand of proof on paper is tantamount to insisting Julius Caesar did not exist because you never saw a photo of him! Get real man!

Thank you. It's simple. An ambassador in Germany was in fact captured in April by the Allieds. Pretty hard for him to send info while he's captured.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

In fact, most people know that Japan intended to move to China and abandon Japan mainland to continue the war. Why was it not put into action ?

Let assume that Russians didn't come to the war and Japan didn't attack US, the war still would be ended soon. Remember through out the war, 80% IJA was in mainland China. When European war ended, large quantity of weapons would be transferred to China. When that happened, Japan would have no any advantages anymore and the IJA would be surrounded and destroyed in large scale never happened to them before, just like what happened in the civil war later.

Simply capture land and city is not victory.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I didn't write the bombs were the one and only thing that forced Japan to surrender.

@JTDanMan--if there some way to interpret your post, I don't know what it is.

In other words, you "assume". That's what I thought.

@Nigelboy--Yeah. I assume that. Just like I assume we are not all part of some giant's dream, that you are a real person, and that the sun will rise tomorrow! Now, could you provide me with a telegram to prove you are real? LOL

Thank you. It's simple. An ambassador in Germany was in fact captured in April by the Allieds. Pretty hard for him to send info while he's captured.

Which is why I said he was in communication until April and not May. Hello?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Which is why I said he was in communication until April and not May. Hello?

In other words, the Ambassador knew in April how the Soviets would treat the captured in Germany during May. I get it.

Thanks for the clarification.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

While this does reek of 'Go China! We the best!' he does make some valid arguments. Japanese nationalism is starting to look like it will become a big problem. (Specifically, it will mean politicians making more and more stupid choices that are hurting international relations.) The war with Japan was much more complicated than 'we won only because of the bomb.' Yes, that IS why the Allies won, but if the bomb had never been dropped (and even before it had) the war was going very very badly for Japan. It was going badly for the Allies too, yes, but even without the bomb, Japan almost certainly would have lost. So for some of these Japanese nationalists to be painting the war as a 'Japan was doing so well!' (not the majority of them are saying this, thank god) is a blatant misrepresentation of history. Nationalism needs to be tempered by realism, and a need for good relations with your fellow countries. So while China is being childish as usual, they did get one thing right: We live in a global society and Japan's politicians need to stop trying to antagonize the world so they can 'win' some imaginary contest of 'how big is my dick.' There is nothing to be won in this situation, but a lot to be lost.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

ControlFreakOct. 11, 2013 - 01:46AM JST The entry of the Soviets into the war played a huge part, quite possibly more than the bombs.

Why did Russians sign the neutrality treaty with Japan in 1941? The treaty called for the two nations to observe neutrality when any one of the two signing nations was invaded by a third nation. Japan honestly did not attack Russia when Hitler's troops were near Moscow, allowing Stalin to redeploy fresh troops from the Far East. And Japan did not attack Russia in 1942, when Nazi troops were near the Volga and the Caucasus. Nonetheless, Russia attacked Japan in August 1945 and captured their islands. This has nothing to do with exchange in military technologies with Germany because it did not apply of this treaty. If Russia is so right, In the 1956 Declaration, why did Russia agreed to return to Japan two of four Kurile Islands? So what kind of allies can Russia look like after all that? Any treaty with Russia is no good.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@NeonFraction

I like your comment.

In fact, Japan tried to improve her economy during the war by immigrating half million Japanese to China. It didn't end up successfully.

War needs money and China is just too big for Japan's stomach.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

China didn't have a single central government at the time, but showed relatively impressive ability to hold up a superior force in much the same manner as the Soviet Union. There was no way for Japan to realistically control that much territory with that much opposition from all sides. Japan's conduct of the war in China was driven by the generals in the field and not by the Imperial General Headquarters, so there there were more planning done tactically than strategically. It seems that its overall structure of the war suffered from this as well, and Japan didn't have a strong central driving force for it's actions.

China had been in a slow, simmering civil war for a long, long time. That is part of the reason that Japan was able to conquer such large tracts of land so easily. It's also the reason they couldn't actually conquer anything at all, in the sense of taking over governmental function and running the country. Most of the Chinese army was controlled by local warlords, some good generals, some bad. It turned out Japan couldn't really take over China the way they took over small places like Korea. Japan isn't the first or last military to make the mistake of trying to conquer a place with no central authority.

Chiang Kai-shek did pretty much everything in his power to not engage with the Japanese army when at all possible. That went for the areas and troops he controlled or was loosely allied with. Chiang could not risk any more all-out offensive campaigns given the poorly-trained, under-equipped, and disorganized state of his armies and opposition to his leadership. He had lost a substantial portion of his best trained and equipped men in the Battle of Shanghai.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

What an idiotic statement, and this guy is an ambassador?

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Mulan

search "Senkaku" dispute you will find a map and related information. There is even a 1785 Japanese map showed that DiaoYu being part of China.

Oh, OK, so your sole case for Chinese ownership is a single map from 1785 - a Japanese map that is considered controversial, according to 'Senkaku dispute' I searched on your recommendation.

It's interesting you reference that map, because on October the 8th, you wrote this:

Since when a single map can determine territory ? Each year and every year, there are million map printed for variety reasons. Some for tourists, some for navigation and some for territorial purposes.

Where does that leave your argument for 'proof'?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Tamarama Oct. 11, 2013 - 07:30AM JST Oh, OK, so your sole case for Chinese ownership is a single map from 1785 - a Japanese map that is considered controversial, according to 'Senkaku dispute' I searched on your recommendation.

I casts doubt on Japan's claim. There were many Meiji period goverment documents from 1885-95 and these documents demonstrate that the Meiji government acknowledged Chinese ownership.

In 1885, the Japanese foreign minister wrote, "Chinese newspapers have been reporting rumors of our intention of occupying islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan.… At this time, if we were to publicly place national markers, this must necessarily invite China's suspicion.…" He then ordered that the matter should "await a more appropriate time" and "should not be made public."

In 1892, the Okinawa governor wrote, "the opportunity to survey the islands again has not yet arrived," thereby requesting the Navy to dispatch navy ship Kaimon." However, miscommunication and bad weather prevented the survey.

In 1894, the Home Ministry wrote, "Ever since the islands were investigated by persons dispatched by police agencies of Okinawa back in 1885, there have been no subsequent field surveys conducted." This was the final relevant correspondence prior to the Sino-Japanese War on Aug. 1894.

In December 1894, after China had suffered some devastating defeats in the war, a secret document from Japan's Home Ministry stated, "the situation today has changed significantly since back then." The Meiji government accordingly incorporated the islands based on a Cabinet decision on Jan. 1895, while the war was still underway. This was never made public and remained unknown to China.

In 1896, Koga Tatsushiro became the first Japanese native to lease the islands. In his biography, he attributed Japan's possession of the islands to "the gallant military victory of our Imperial forces."

These documents clearly show that the islands were Chinese territory obtained as spoils of war. The Chinese do not dispute that the islands, along with Taiwan, were part of Japan from 1895 to 1945. But with the conclusion of World War II, the islands should have been restored to their pre-1895 legal status.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Joebigs "Please remember, if they agree with you then they will face the wrath of Mao Zedong part two, better known as Emperor Xi."

Both countries love their emperor and share the same cultural habits, as shown in Miyamotos post. The emperor as a god and benevolent leader while the rest of us content in our own determined roles in society, however miserable or grand they might be, is a common underlying belief to both Japan, Korea and China. Its the reasoning for Abe wanting to change the constitution as McAuthur according to Abe and the nationalist, could not understand Japanese culture. Actually McAuthur as an admiinistrator could understand this and had the Japanese commitee rewrite their hijacked version of the constitution in order to fit McAuthurs vision of equal rights for women, Article 9 etc. There seems to be silence coming from Washingtion on this issue; perhaps its just more politcal manuvering in order to use japan as a buffer. There is some commentary on TV about it, but I hear very little from japanese people, except the usual parroting from what the government tells them.

"However in the USA our people forget the Nisei were interned and their lands/goods confiscated - never to be returned. where the German Americans were allowed to remain in the country free. In Asia- countries easily forget their actions and complicity with Japan- in way similar to the French do in Europe with the Nazi's, blaming everything on the enemy."

Actually thats not true. Reagan compensated the Nissie for the persecution by the U.S. government. Japan captured U.S. pows, used them for slave labor, then beheaded them before they surrended. The powers that be at that time thought it neccessary to contain the internal subversion and espionage that was rampant coming from Japan. The black dragon society was operating in the U.S. and given the nature of Japanese strong ties towards group conformity and national identity, it was understandably difficult to tell who was who. Were they an immigrant coming to the U.S. just to work, escape discimination back home, or did they want to sever all ties to the motherland and assimilate in the foriegn culture of the U.S.? For the Nissie who loved their new country or country of birth, it was a great injustice. However, having resided in Japan, it can readily be observed that Japanese have an almost compulsive need to associate with a group and national identity. In the U.S., as in any country, national interest take priority. I see little written about the foriengers who were in Japan during the war. many of them were also rounded up; did the Japanese government compensate any of them?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

sfjp330

Yes, Wikipedia has all of that information, I've read that as well.

I guess I'm looking for the compelling reasons why the Chinese consider these islands theirs. I'd like to see their case, because I'm not really convinced that just because certain Japanese people thought they MIGHT be Chinese islands, it makes the case water tight. I'm happy to be proven wrong - as I said in an earlier post, I'm impartial here. I just haven't seen much of a case, to be honest.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Tamarama

I am glad you follow up the link. The key point is, as sfjp30 correctly pointed out, that Japan's claim isn't credible. As for more evidences, there are quite many of them in Chinese documents. As for my previous posting, no contradiction. Not all maps are equal. The first one matters. Here we disprove things, single case is sufficient. But when you prove things, single case isn't sufficient. Hopefully you follow my thoughts. Thank you.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Mitch Cohen

I do notice an interesting trend here. When a Japanese politician says something outrageous or provocative, it's that politician who is criticised. When a Chinese or Korean politician does the same, the whole country is ridiculed. Why is that?

Because Japan is a democracy with free speech for individuals. China has one-party rule. Disagree publicly and you get jailed or worse, including execution.

I also notice that some people who post here use blanket statements to criticize all of Japan. Life must be hell for those people living here. As soon as they step out the door, Japanese everywhere do nothing but stuff to annoy, antagonize or oppress them. Probably communicate by walkie talkies that you're coming down the street. And they're all conspiring to do something worse to you next time. It's called paranoia.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The Chinese government just keeps ratcheting up the rhetoric. They seem to have very nicely forgotten the history from the time Mao took over right through the early 1990s China had no place on the world stage. The communist party had pretty well botched everything it had done, millions dead of famine, no freedom of anything, a miserable economy. If the US and Russia hadn't tossed the Japanese out of China they might still be there.

Now China wants to bully the neighbors and act like they can dictate to Japan. That's not a new world order anybody is going to put up with.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Mulan

The key point is, as sfjp30 correctly pointed out, that Japan's claim isn't credible.

That is just your opinion. I want you to show why not.

As for more evidences, there are quite many of them in Chinese documents.

That's fine. Where are they?

As for my previous posting, no contradiction. Not all maps are equal.

Ha ha! Now you are starting to sound like the Pigs from 'Animal Farm', which is a delicious irony. First you say maps don't determine sovereignty (your words), then you say they do. That is completely contradictory my friend and compromises the quality of your argument quite considerably because of the double standard.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan did make many mistakes and has LEARNED from most of their terrible mistakes and is trying very hard to be a PEACE LOVING NATION. CHINA?? Ok, time to stop the cry baby attitude about Japan being the yellow Nazis etc...sure, it was but now?? My guess, CHINA needs to realize, they have many, many INTERNAL, DOMESTIC problems of their very own and BEIJING needs to wake up and start treating their own people better, and this is not even mentioning the problems with TIBET, with the Muslim western part of China etc..so what does BEIJING DO?? Every time they want to DIVERT attention from BEIJING and the CORRUPTION etc..going on in BEIJING, they use the good old, never fail, WE HATE JAPAN card, right?? Sorry China, but most of the world can see right through this stupid game being played by those in power in BEIJING!

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Tamarama

Why do you push me so hard ? Follow the link to rad evidence: http://news.xinhuanet.com/2012-09/25/c_113202698.htm

be warned, it is Chinese site.

I consistently said that the first map matters, I still say that. I also said not all maps are the same, I still say that. I said single map can't be an evidence for claim, I still say that.

Look at the evidences, how many maps you can find, by Chinese and Europeans as well. All published openly, all published before 1895.

Chinese not only had first maps, they also had first book, first name, first detailed description and first defense plan, first fishing ground.

A lot of firsts, and you are not the first one to learn the evidences from me.

Thank you.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

mulan

Why do you push me so hard ?

Well, because you joined the discussion voicing strong opinions, and I want to see the substance behind such opinions. It's the way we debate in English - proof is important in substantiating claims.

be warned, it is Chinese site.

Yes, not only that, but it is a State run news organisation that reports to the Communist Party's Propaganda and Public Information Department. That 'compromises' the quality of the information it contains - because it brings it's independence into question I'm afraid. The mouthpiece for the Chinese Communist Party probably isn't the most reliable of sources here.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Japan had no weapon and no food to fight, only bamboo spears.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@The Article

Well, I won't blame Cui too much. He has a job to do and he needs to use whatever cards he has. He does so.

@ControlFreak Oct. 09, 2013 - 03:42PM JST

Much as I understand your sentiment, your analogy is inaccurate. Not even a Japanese rightwinger would deny that some eggs were broken as the Japanese "advanced" (not invaded) through China. A better analogy is that the Chinese are saying you are breaking the eggs, and the Japanese rightwing is saying "Well, we were trying to make an Omelette - we don't deny we broke a few eggs along the way but you guys ate some omelette too."

@Guru29 Oct. 09, 2013 - 05:35PM JST

"The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we ( US, UK, China and Russia) determine."

Precisely - we. Not "China alone". Not "the lowest common denominator."

Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of 5 September 1905.

OK, I'll agree Japan should really stop filing any claims or pretending South Kuriles is not Kuriles. But then, this is also the (retconned) opinion of the US.

Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29 deg north latitude (that's the island chain between Kyushu and the Diaoyu islands)...

But the trusteeship never started.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

mulanOct. 11, 2013 - 10:57AM JST http://news.xinhuanet.com/2012-09/25/c_113202698.htm

Shun feng xiang song is an old Chinese navigation guild that list a lot ports and islands from Nagasaki, Okinawa islands, islands of the Philippines, islands of Indonesia, ports of Vietnam, ports of Thailand, ports of Malaysia, to Singapore. The places listed on Shun feng xiang song are not necessarily Chinese territory. It only shows that China knew those places. It does not mean Chinese discovered or actually went to those places, for they could write the book based on stories heard from foreign sailors.

Then your link talk about navigation records of Chinese delegates to Ryukyu kingdom, which is Okinawa pref of Japan today. The records are more of the evidence that Senkakus belong to Ryukyu kingdom. None of those records says Senkakus belong to China.

For a long time Taiwan was not part of China. It was 1683 that Qing dynasty China first put Taiwan under its control. Your link says that Ming Dynasty China put Senkakus under control in 1561. But that is quite unbelievable, due to the situation in Taiwan.

Your link says Ryukyu kingdom failed to claim Senkakus. Even if it is true, it does not make Senkakus Chinese territory.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

The Senkaku/Diaoyu islands were simply assumed by the Chinese Imperial rulers to be a part of their realm, but they were not actively administered as Chinese territory and essentially neglected; no one lived there and they were really only used as navigational aids. Then China woke up one day to find that Japan had taken them over and they (China) were powerless to stop them because China at that time (the early 20th century) was essentially a failed state with more urgent problems. Since then they have been Japanese territory in both the legal and physical occupation senses of the word. The only way for China to get them back is through "facts on the ground", and while those rocks are hardly worth the cost in lives and money that such an action would cost, there is a risk that foolish pride or miscalculation on either side will turn into a larger conflict. Let's hope that cool heads prevail so that both countries can stay focused on more important issues (pollution, the economy, etc.) than settling old scores or maintaining their rep. Peace.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

All readers back on topic please. Please focus your comments on Ambassador Cui's remarks.

The past is the past.. Japan has done a lot in the face of ultimate horror and disgrace... since end of WWII to be a citizen of the world and contribute its energy and mind and hard work to create things that are good for not only Japan but the world.. no one ever wants to credit where credit is due.. it is easy to just hate and talk big when like China and Korea now is a time when you live in cities of gold with streets of silver.. What has China done.. ever to help the world? The only thing they are doing now is stealing intellectual property.. acting like a bully and polluting the air, land and sea..

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Much as I understand your sentiment, your analogy is inaccurate. Not even a Japanese rightwinger would deny that some eggs were broken as the Japanese "advanced" (not invaded) through China. A better analogy is that the Chinese are saying you are breaking the eggs, and the Japanese rightwing is saying "Well, we were trying to make an Omelette - we don't deny we broke a few eggs along the way but you guys ate some omelette too."

@Kazuaki Shimazaki--All those Chinese civilians who had their arms and legs amputated during Unit 731's human experiments did not become omlettes. They became "maruta".

I am always amazed at how the Cold War turned even the most simple and basic things on their head and people cannot see the switch. Everyone pounces on this ambassador for pointing out how the communist Chinese fought tooth and nail to turn the Japanese back in China. And who knows how many communists helped the airmen from Doolittle's raid get home?

But the Cold War hits and suddenly every little thing a communist did was either evil or worthless. And suddenly the Japanese were "not so bad", and wonton slaughter of civilians is okay because its perceived as ending a war that was already won. It would all be laughable if it were not so painfully pathetic a comment on the human race's propensity to prefer convenient lies to the truth.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

China is a slave for America, Making Iphone and buying it on the price of $1000.00 USD :P

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Kimokekahuna Hawaii

"Japan has done a lot in the face of ultimate horror and disgrace... since end of WWII to be a citizen of the world and contribute its energy and mind and hard work to create things that are good for not only Japan but the world.. no one ever wants to credit where credit is due"

Thats a very kind and sweet analysis of Japan. Have you ever lived in Japan for a long time? Japan does for Japan, not for anybody else. When they bombed Pearl Harbor, it was for Japan. When they establish companies across the U.S., but wont allow but a handfew in Japan, its for Japan. True, Japan wants to be a citizen of the world, but its still primitive amoung the advanced nations when it comes to social progress. Acting as if Japan is this sweet innocent victim in all this empowers nationalism in Japan. Japan is where China will be in 50 years; they are only doing what the Japanese did, that is copying and reinventing products made abroad. This was rampant in Japan 50 years ago. There is still little innovation in Japan; they copy/change and call it uniquely Japanese. I see little difference between both countries, except one is more primitive than the other and both are primitive when compared to the rest of the developed world.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Anyone who studies history Japan had already given up weeks before the bomb was dropped. The bomb was dropped as a warning to Russia and to give the US the upper-hand in surrender negotiations with the Japanese.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"May I suggest posting exactly what he said for perhaps he may have explained it little better which lead up to this comment. Certainly better than you repeating the same thing without any support."

Look it up yourself, Nigelboy. I don't play these copy-and-paste games on Japan Today since this forum is not as important to me as it is to you. Besides, you never fail to point out how awesome your Japanese language skills are compared to everybody else's relative illiteracy. So use them. Look up Ohira's comparison of America in Vietnam to Japan in China.

But I stand by what I wrote originally. There is no doubt that some people just can't accept the fact that Chinese soldiers and civilians (both communist and non-communist) played an important role in defeating Japan during World War II. You are clearly a case in point.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Look it up yourself, Nigelboy. I don't play these copy-and-paste games on Japan Today since this forum is not as important to me as it is to you. Besides, you never fail to point out how awesome your Japanese language skills are compared to everybody else's relative illiteracy. So use them. Look up Ohira's comparison of America in Vietnam to Japan in China.

MASSWIPE. I tried. I couldn't find it. Please post them for me. I'm not doubting the existence. Thanks.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

So, focusing on Cui's remarks:

“Japan was defeated in the Second World War not just by two atomic bombs dropped by the U.S. but by all the peace-loving, anti-fascist countries and people—the peoples of the United Nations—including China and the United States, of course,” Cui said.

The above statement is true. However, this claim:

“I think politicians in Japan have to realize this is the post-World War II international order. You cannot challenge that,” he said.

This is merely a self-interested assertion. Many countries would like to change the post-WWII international order, including a rising China. What Cui alluding to is Japan's desire for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council (and China's opposition thereto). There are good reasons for not adding more permanent members to the Security Council, increased vetoes and gridlock chief among them, but reform of the Council is needed. The proposal by many middle size states to do away with permanent members and hold regular votes for a fixed number of seats (the "Uniting for Consensus" proposal) is the best way forward.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

I can't see how these words spoken by Cui at John Hopkins expounding the necessity for China to keep up old grudges against Japan could be in any way advantageous for China's "rise". Or was he just trying to cover his back from criticism by nationalists at home?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"“Japan was defeated in the Second World War not just by two atomic bombs dropped by the U.S. but by all the peace-loving, anti-fascist countries and people—the peoples of the United Nations—including China and the United States, of course,” Cui said."

Well first of all he is wrong in stating that the Japanese think the A-bombs are the only reason they were defeated. Second, the China that was a WWII ally was the Republic of China. Which the communists ousted to form the PRC. So I don't know where China (PRC) gets the cojones to talk like they played a big role. Thirdly, while the fascist countries of WWII, Germany, Japan and Italy all became democracies, China (PRC) today is the closest thing to a fascist state in the 21st century. So where does the ambassador get off making this kind of statement?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Yes! here is a democracy for sure :) but Chineses are educated to see Japan as it was 70 years ago! By the way, many people there likes Japan.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

If Mao had followed Stalin's plan, quit the Civil War until after WWII, then maybe the war would have ended before the atom bomb was completed

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

**Japan is a great country, hard working, diligent and motivated society ! The country has repeatedly voiced regret and apologies over it's WW@ atrocities so China, Korea and others should stop hounding Tokyo because today's generation had NOTHING to do with it !I live in Tokyo, my Sons are married to Japanese, my grandchildren are half Japanese so I do understand something about the place. History aside China and it's lacky North KOrea are MUCH bigger threats in many ways to the region than Japan is today !

0 ( +1 / -1 )

An ambassador's job is to promote good relations between countries, in other words, be a DIPLOMAT, this man needs to be removed as ambassador if China wants to be represented in a friendly diplomatic way! WW 2 has been over for almost a century, learn from it so that we don't repeat it!

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The PRC has been rewriting history wholesale for a while now. They are Sinicizing early Korean history and making it their own, they pretty much have expunged any idea that the old CCP has blood on its hands for the nincompoopery known as the Cultural Revolution and its offspring of ill conceived economic reform.

But this is the ambassador from the PRC. He has to let his masters know that he likes the taste of his koolaid so he can stay in the US.

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My ex Chinese girlfriends grandmother was raped by Japanese soldiers. The Chinese and Koreans needed that apology and also needed Japan to be like Germany after WW2. Germany looked into itself, Japan still hasn't. This BBC article is a good read about how Japanese are not taught their own history.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21226068 'Japanese people often fail to understand why neighbouring countries harbour a grudge over events that happened in the 1930s and 40s. The reason, in many cases, is that they barely learned any 20th Century history. I myself only got a full picture when I left Japan and went to school in Australia"

I understand the anger from the Asian countries. My girlfriend is Japanese and trying to get her to read anything negative about Japan's past is almost impossible and yet she still doesn't understand why Korea and China hate Japan. It's like "if i don't talk about it or see it then it didn't happen". That's why WW2 is still important 70 years on.

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@Ashley CowanOct. 16, 2013 - 09:13AM JST

That's really nonsense. Plenty of German women were raped by the Soviet Red Army but Germany doesn't make hating Russia a political tool or official diplomatic policy. Japan has surrendered in WWII, went through the Tokyo War Crimes Trials, and signed treaties with South Korea in 1965 and China in 1972 apologizing for the past and putting all WWII matters to rest. The "anger from the Asian countries" is only China and SKorea (nobody cares about Nkorea). All other Asian nations have moved on as the west has.

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