Japan's whaling ship gets halal certification

Okay, now your stretching it a bit too much.

Er, why halal registration? They aren't hunting for meat, but for 'research'. The meat is just a byproduct. I think the whalers just threw away the last shred of pretence that they were doing research.

When are you people going to get it through your head that the meat from whales taken in the research program MUST BE CONSUMED in accordance with IWC Article VIII. It's a condition to conduct Research Whaling. So whether the Japanese eat it or not, does not prove anything as to the validity or invalidity of the research. Let the ICJ make that determination, and Japan's consumption of whale meat has not been presented by Australia as evidence of commercial whaling. At least they thought about it. As to Halal registration, are you people now going to attack the Islamic religion because "whale meat" can be Halal certified? Are we going to start arguing about whether Muslims have a "tradition" of eating whale meat or not? Honestly, who cares?

Veneer of respectability?

What next, recipes for Irish Stew?

When are you people going to get it through your head... blah blah blah

You probably do not realize this but your tone is getting progressively grumpier in your daily posts. Might want to change your name to GrumpyOssanAmerica.

the meat from whales taken in the research program MUST BE CONSUMED in accordance with IWC Article VIII.

That old chestnut again? Article VIII says NOTHING about the meat being consumed. It says 'Any whales taken under these special permits shall so far as practicable be processed and the proceeds shall be dealt with in accordance with directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted.' That's the whales, not just the meat from the whales, and it's to be 'processed' not just slapped on a plate. Yet literally tons of offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else are chucked overboard in the Antarctic, and only the tasty edible bits brought back to Japan. I asked this question before, and got no answer; why doesn't Japan process the whole whale, in accordance with Article VIII?

The halal thing puts the final nail in the coffin of Japan's claim to be conducting 'scientific research' (not that it needed any more)

According to the wiki article on halal, killing animals in Islam is permissible for two main reasons: To be eaten. To eliminate their danger, e.g., rabid dog.

Since the whales are not rabid and pose no danger to anyone, to gain halal certification the whales must be being killed specifically for their meat. Oh what a giveaway. In addition carnivorous animals are haraam, which should exclude whales.

The slaughter ritual to produce halal meat (slitting the throat and bleeding the animal out slowly after invoking the name of Allah - and it must be done by a Muslim) is not applicable to whales killed with an exploding harpoon. No doubt they get around that one by claiming whales are 'seafood' but marine animals without scales are haraam.

http://www.islamic-laws.com/fish.htm

Totally agree cleo,

I'm sick and tired of the lies and twisting truth around Article VIII. It's like those regurgitating that garbage haven't even read the article itself. The amount that is wasted is criminal as well under this article.

I support Japanese tradition but this is just stupid! It's just fuel for the fire. Come on if you are going to justify this hunt then there are better ways of doing it. This will just bring a whole wave of criticism! Unless that's the point and there are other political issues we should be paying attention to but are not.

Good for them, time to get Islamic allies to their side.

And, I wonder how many of these Japanese Muslims would actually eat whale meat? Japan has some of the strongest anti-Muslim laws in the world. It is nearly impossible for a Muslim to get permanent residency. This makes me wonder how much money was slipped under the table to gain this registration?

Whale meat is tasty and I like it. You people should know that there are whales that are endangered and there are whales that are not and in fact are beginning to turn in to overpopulation.

Had whale meat sashimi once in Tsukiji and it definitely is NOT like fish meat. I bit into it and spoonfuls of blood came out like eating raw human flesh, so I had to quickly go to the bathroom and couldn't keep it down.

Sooo... you have eaten human flesh? Also, for some meat (fish or mammal in this case) to be called "sashimi" there is a certain way of preparation/cutting, so as you say "a spoonfuls of blood"... that is hardly to be considered as sashimi... first you are using a spoon, second, there is blood(?!?!).

@Disillusioned

"Japan has some of the strongest anti-Muslim laws in the world."

You got me interested with that... Could you provide us all with an example of a Japanese "anti-Muslim law? I'm all ears....

That is just brilliant.... so it is certified that the whales are killed by bleeding out with their heads pointing toward Meccah while citing a muslim prayer?

And all this is relevant to scientific research how? I am eagerly waiting for the explanation from the scientific community.

@zichi

I take you have supporting data for your statements. Considering that the company (as if was just one) is loosing money for years, sure have other lines of production, that use other animal products... like those pour mammals that have a genetic code and metabolism so much alike humans (pigs you know).

And if we are talking of falling markets I think before the whale meat (to be honest a rarity in everywhere) the first meat that is going to be bought is going to be bovine....

Yes but is it kosher?

also,

Japan has some of the strongest anti-Muslim laws in the world. It is nearly impossible for a Muslim to get permanent residency.

What kind of nonsense is that? No questions ever asked by immigration about religion. They couldn't care less.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a clever stunt by Sea Shepherd or some other group intent on shutting down the whaling. They approach the whaling company with a suggestion that might expand the tiny, unprofitable market for whalemeat, all friendly-like, and the whalers with their tiny profit-oriented brains do not realise that by accepting halal certification, they have openly admitted that they are taking the whales for their meat, not for any other reason. Fell for it hook, line and sinker.

There is no way whalemeat can be halal.

Truly bizarre, gives an indication of the desperate mind-set of those in charge of Japan's whaling program.

I am glad to know that Muslims are more open minded than some of the whale fundamentalists.

OssanAmerica

Let the ICJ make that determination

Oh don't be ridiculous! Of course the commenters at JT know more than the ICJ judges ever could about the scientific merits of whatever it is that Japan does. They are just a bunch of dopes, who needs the ICJ and a legal system!

When it comes to whales, everyone knows who's good and who's evil.

:)

But it's a bemusing story. All those anti-whalers will have a field day with this. Just imagine it - "it is a sign of desperation! Not even the dogs want to eat whale meat so now they are trying to sell it to Muslims!" (Never mind that Muslims in Japan is probably not a huge market...)

When it comes to hunting, the Prophet himself has some strong views on what is or isn't halal. I hope the Japanese whalers pay attention.

1) All hunters must be Muslims Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian or Sabean. Shintoists or Aetheists not welcome.

2) A direct quote from the Prophet:"whoever kills a sparrow or anything bigger than that without a just caused Allah will hold him responsible on the day of judgement. The listeners asked, O Messenger of Allah, what is a just cause? He replied, That he kill it to eat....

3) The name of Allah must be invoked at the time of slaughter.

4) If the animal is not killed instantly by the first blow, the only permissible way to finish it off is to slit it's throat.

Good luck with that, boys....

I say it again...

I LIKE WHALE MEAT, and I eat it every time that I can!!!

It's hilarious how people still "defend" whaling, even though they have probably never eaten whale meat in their entire lives.

Lucabrasi - Try this link for information on Japan's discrimination against Muslims.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/the-land-without-muslims/2013/05/19/0/

CH3CHO I am glad to know that Muslims are more open minded than some of the whale fundamentalists.

Holy crap, how offensive is this? You do realize that the not all "Muslims" are crazy fundamentalists?

And what exactly is your logical, rational reason for defending whaling? Are you not simply defending whaling for the sake of deflecting criticism?

That's the whales, not just the meat from the whales, and it's to be 'processed' not just slapped on a plate. Yet literally tons of offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else are chucked overboard in the Antarctic, and only the tasty edible bits brought back to Japan. I asked this question before, and got no answer; why doesn't Japan process the whole whale, in accordance with Article VIII?

So unless every part of the whale is used, it doesn't count as processing the whale? By your definition, very few plants or animals could be described as processed, not even something like rice. It's an absurd definition.

cleo - That old chestnut again? Article VIII says NOTHING about the meat being consumed. It says 'Any whales taken under these special permits shall so far as practicable be processed and the proceeds shall be dealt with in accordance with directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted.' That's the whales, not just the meat from the whales, and it's to be 'processed' not just slapped on a plate. Yet literally tons of offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else are chucked overboard in the Antarctic, and only the tasty edible bits brought back to Japan. I asked this question before, and got no answer; why doesn't Japan process the whole whale, in accordance with Article VIII?

Yes, that same old chestnut that says -

.....SHALL SO FAR AS PRACTICABLE BE PROCESSED AND THE PROCEEDS SHALL BE DEALT WITH IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE DIRECTIONS ISSUED BY THE GOVERNMENT BY WHICH THE PERMIT WAS GRANTED.

The section stating "so far as practicable" doesn't mean the whole whale. It means that as much as possible should be used.

The section stating "shall be dealt with in accordance with the directions issued by the Government BY WHICH THE PERMIT WAS GRANTED" means the Japanese government, in this case, issues the directions.

The whalers are aware of this, the Japanese government is aware of this, the member nations of the IWC are aware of this, the lawyers involved in the various court cases are aware of this, and the International Court should now be aware of this.

Any concerns anyone has about changing the wording of Article VIII to include the term "must use the whole whale" will have to address the IWC.

Disillusioned

There is a rise of Indonesian tourist here in Japan and they are NOT going to the local Tonkotsu Ramen shop or CoCo Ichiban for a reason. Providing an alternative choice is always a good way of extending hospitality to people. A Halal certification for whale meat would be one of them.

The section stating "so far as practicable" doesn't mean the whole whale.

It also doesn't mean Just take the tasty bits and dump the rest. They could easily and economically turn the offal into fertiliser, for example.

in accordance with the directions issued by the Government BY WHICH THE PERMIT WAS GRANTED" means the Japanese government

And the Japanese government gives directions for only the tasty bits to be harvested sorry I mean processed and packed in frozen storage until they can offload it as meat for the table. A veritable fox in the henhouse situation. By giving those directions, the Japanese government merely underlines the fact that what is going on is commercial whaling for the purpose of taking the meat.

The whalers are aware of this, the Japanese government is aware of this, the member nations of the IWC are aware of this, the lawyers involved in the various court cases are aware of this, and the International Court should now be aware of this

We're all aware of this, which is why we cry foul.

By accepting halal certification - under which the animal must have been killed for the purpose of being eaten - the whalers are announcing publicly that they are whaling for meat. I hope the ICJ and the IWC are paying attention.

Some Japanese people defend whaling, even though they dont personally support it, because the pressure is "gaiatsu", coming from outside Japan. Its a matter of pride rather than principle to oppose western countries whenever pressure is applied. I put it down to a lack of critical thinking in the education system. Having said that, "gaiatsu" is probably the only way any significant change is going to come about

zichi

Believe it or not there is a hala certification for each muslim state and there are variations to them.

Do you really believe that Brazilian Chicken farms that export their products to the middle east has a muslim slit each single chicken?

zichi - According to Halal law, the person who does the slaughtering is an adult muslim (believing in there is no god but Allah, and the finality of Prophet-hood of Muhammad (Peace be upon him)).

According to the article, "special inspectors" have certified that they are satisfied with the procedures and processes onboard the Nisshin Maru. I assume that the "special inspectors" have a better understanding of what constitutes "halal certification" than most internet posters.

Japan’s whaling mothership has been awarded a halal certificate to prove the whales it takes from the Antarctic Ocean are slaughtered in accordance with Muslim law, a company spokesman said Wednesday.

The Nisshin Maru was certified last year before it headed off to the southern ocean for this season’s controversial hunt, a spokesman for ship owner Kyodo Senpaku, said.

“Special inspectors examined the ship when it was docked in Hiroshima last year,” he told AFP. “It was certified officially on November 24.”

@Cleo

It also doesn't mean Just take the tasty bits and dump the rest.

Returning them to the ocean to continue life-cycle. they then become food for sharks and other sea life. This is also what fishermen do with bycatch.

the Japanese government merely underlines the fact that what is going on is commercial whaling for the purpose of taking the meat.

Under a legal loophole from the IWC.

Having said that the ruling from the international court is coming up soon, should be interesting either way. If Australia loses then a precedent will be set. If japan loses they will have to STOP whaling as it will be deemed illegal. And Japanese are usually sticklers for the law so unless they find another loophole they should follow the ruling.

X

Eiji Takano I have never met any Japanese who have never eaten whale meat except strangers. And you are critisizing CH3CHO for something he didn't even say. Read carefully.

A person, a man or a woman, who slaughters an animal must be a Muslim.

How many Muslim harpoon operators are there in the Japanese whaling fleet?

The animal should be slaughtered with a weapon made of iron. However, if an implement made of iron is not available, it should be slaughtered with a sharp object like glass or stone

Are exploding harpoons made of iron? glass? stone?

If two persons jointly hunt an animal and if one of them fulfils the requisites while the other does not, like, if one of them utters the name of Allah whereas the other does not do so intentionally, that animal is not halal.

So all the crew of the harpoon ships are chanting 'Allah'??

If an animal is shot with an arrow and, if it falls into water and a person knows that the animal has died because of being shot with an arrow, and falling into water, it will not be halal. In fact, if he is not sure that the animal has died only because of being shot with an arrow, it is not halal.

Well the whales are already in the water, so I wonder how that works....maybe a whale counts as a fish, since it's in the water.....

If a fish with scales is caught alive from water, and it dies thereafter, it is Clean (tahir/pak) and it is halal to eat it, even if the scales are shed off later due to some reasons. And if it dies in the water, it is Clean (tahir/pak), but it is haraam to eat it. However, it is lawful to eat it if it dies in the net of the fisherman. A fish which has no scales is haraam even if it is brought alive from water and dies out of water.

No scales, so even if a whale is a fish, it's not halal. And since the icr claims their catch all die instantly from the exploding harpoon - in the water - it's not halal.

It is not necessary that a person catching a fish should be a Muslim or should utter the name of Allah while catching it. It is, however, necessary that a Muslim should have seen or ascertained that the fish was brought alive from the water, or that it died in the net in water.

So, are the whales killed instantly by the exploding harpoon (in which case it's not halal), or is it dragged from the water while still alive (thus exposing as big fat porkies all the icr claims of quick, humane killing - but we knew that, anyway). Either way, not halal.

http://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-al-uzma-sayyid-ali-al-husaini-seestani/slaughtering-and-hunting-animals

The more I read up on this, the more convinced I am that it's all a ruse to show the whalers up for the forked-tongue porkie vendors they are. I don't see how giving the factory ship a certificate does anything to make the slaughter in the Southern Ocean anywhere near compliant to Islamic dietary law. The slaughter methods are not halal, the animal itself whichever way you look at it, as a mammal or as seafood, is not halal. They may as well give a certificate to a pork butcher's back kitchen, it doesn't make the merchandise in his shop any more acceptable.

I don't think the Muslim community in Japan was waiting with bated breath for this.

Its basically a way of making the point that look, its just Western culture that has a problem with this, everyone else is normal. I suppose they've got a point, we're always having weird ideas.. human rights, democracy etc.

Guess its all about which are the bigger markets

No no no, zichi, it can't be that. They aren't killing the whales to put meat on the market, it's for 'research'.

:-)

cleo:

" No no no, zichi, it can't be that. They aren't killing the whales to put meat on the market, it's for 'research'. "

Maybe they have moved on from biological resarch to religious research now?

Brilliant. Next step hire some celeb chef to show us how to make interesting new dishes using whale meat.

Special investigators received the proper payment and endorsed a cleaning liquid company in return for a print out paper of some unknown origin.... Proper Halal certification is bloody hard to get generally,whats next Kosher permit ? Those can be readily bought too.

So those Japanese whalers are going to convert to Islam and then face Mecca and utter an incantation every time they kill a whale? I'll believe it when i see it.

They could have checked Wiki on halal to see how ridiculous this jape really is:

"Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of Allah") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck (while the animal is conscious), causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained."

@Wakarimasen

Ingredients:

250g meat 1onion sliced 2tblsp soy sauce 1tblsp mirin 1tsp sesame oil 1tsp sugar 1tsp roasted sesame seeds 1/2 tsp garlic water method: 1: Slice meat into thin pencil sized strips place in bowl and add all liquid ingredients and marinate overnight. 2: Separate liquid from meat and keep on the side. 3: In a smoking hot pan saute onion and meat for 2 minutes, turn heat down add garlic and saute further for 1 minute 4:Add marinate liquid and cook for 5 more minutes add a little water before pan gets dry (don't let pan get dry) 5: sprinkle sesame seeds on top and serve with rice.

Please enjoy this The previous 5 comments are sarcastic and so is this one.

x

"special inspectors" have certified that they are satisfied with the procedures and processes onboard the Nisshin Maru

The whales aren't killed on board the Nisshin Maru.

First, no muslims in japan? gonna have to inform that to the hundreds of fellas that go with me to the mosque in Saitama every friday.

Second and more important, just because is "halal" we are in no obligation to eat it, so no whale for me or my kids.

Er, why halal registration? They aren't hunting for meat, but for 'research'.

And the regulations require them to process the meat as far as practicable. By getting the halal certification they are going as far as practicable to process it. So it is following the 'research' regulations. It actually increases their claim.

I asked this question before, and got no answer; why doesn't Japan process the whole whale, in accordance with Article VIII?

No actually you were answered. You just ignored it, so here goes again. As you quote says "as far as practicable". The ships only have a finite amount of storage space, so unless you can show that it is practicable to store every single bit of the possible 850 Minke whales, your claim fails.

Oh what a giveaway.

Not really. The certification was by muslim officials. Their beliefs and decision say nothing about the whalers motives.

http://www.islamic-laws.com/fish.htm

And different sects read the requirements differently. So sorry but I will go with the muslim officials who made the determination rather than your internet cherry picking.

The whales aren't killed on board the Nisshin Maru.

And the comment you quote says nothing about where the whales are killed.

So it is following the 'research' regulations. It actually increases their claim.

But to be halal, the animal has to be killed for the purpose of taking its meat, not for the purpose of abiding by Article VIII. The whalers are thus stating that they are hunting for meat, not for research.

No actually you were answered. You just ignored it,

I went back to the thread where I originally asked the question, thinking I might have missed a nugget of enlightenment, but I hadn't. All I found was a post by Heda Madness saying 'So you're waiting for an explanation as to why the offal and innards aren't processed? Here's one. Because it was said by Bob Brown.' -seemingly suggesting that the offal and bits are processed, but SS is lying and telling us different. as for the 'explanations' on this thread, I cannot be accused of 'ignoring' posts that were written after I asked my question.

The ships only have a finite amount of storage space, so unless you can show that it is practicable to store every single bit of the possible 850 Minke whales, your claim fails.

They haven't taken anywhere close to 850 whales in many years (thank you SS). The mothership comes home riding high in the water. Wouldn't it be more practicable to process every part (as far as possible) of each whale as it is killed, so that as much as possible of what they did catch could be put to use, rather than just picking out the small amount of meat?

But they don't want the bits, they don't want to process any whales taken as far as is practicable, they just want the meat. It's all they're there for.

the comment you quote says nothing about where the whales are killed

If the whales aren't killed on board the halal-certified ship (which they aren't, supposedly), then the certification of the ship is meaningless. If they started butchering pigs on the Nisshin Maru, with its new improved alcohol-free hand cleanser, would the pork magically become halal? No.

But to be halal, the animal has to be killed for the purpose of taking its meat

According to you. But you are not qualified to certify things as halal or not.

thinking I might have missed a nugget of enlightenment, but I hadn't

Then it must have been removed. At least now there is a new chance for you to get an answer.

They haven't taken anywhere close to 850 whales in many years (thank you SS).

But when they configure the ship and when they leave Japan they don't know how many whales they will catch. So you point is pointless.

Wouldn't it be more practicable to process every part (as far as possible) of each whale as it is killed

Not necessarily. Processing and storing the offal and blood requires different equipment and storage locations than processing the meat. They can't redesign and rebuild the ship at sea.

If the whales aren't killed on board the halal-certified ship (which they aren't, supposedly), then the certification of the ship is meaningless.

According to you. I will still defer to the people qualified to give halal certification.

If they started butchering pigs on the Nisshin Maru, with its new improved alcohol-free hand cleanser, would the pork magically become halal? No.

I don't know and neither do you, as neither of us are qualified to issue halal ceritification.

so the Nisshin Maru could have carried every last piece of the whale.

Really? Where is you proof for this claim? You know, proof that they have the equipment to properly store offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else. It is not just an issue of having phusical space, it is an issue of having properly configured space.

According to you.

No, not according to me. According to the many people and organisations that have seen fit to put explanations of halal up on the Internet.

But when they configure the ship and when they leave Japan...

...they do so intending to take the meat, and only the meat. It's what the whole exercise is about.

Processing and storing the offal and blood requires different equipment and storage locations than processing the meat. They can't redesign and rebuild the ship at sea.

And if they intended in good faith to comply with Article VIII, they would make the necessary preparations before they left port. After all, they know in advance that they're going to be killing whole whales, not pulling prepacked lumps of meat out of the water.

I will still defer to the people qualified to give halal certification

Then maybe you should read up a bit on what halal is.

I don't know and neither do you, as neither of us are qualified to issue halal ceritification

Lol I know it's a religious thing, but it's not transubstantiation - no amount of certification is going to make pig meat fit for Muslims to eat.

It is not just an issue of having phusical space, it is an issue of having properly configured space.

Then they need to make sure that they have the properly configured space before they leave port, if they want to claim that they are following Article VIII.

Just why do they really continue to go Whaling ? Is it a "National" pride thing ... a case of "don't tell us what to do" ?

cleoJan. 23, 2014 - 08:51AM JST "the meat from whales taken in the research program MUST BE CONSUMED in accordance with IWC Article VIII.

That old chestnut again? Article VIII says NOTHING about the meat being consumed. It says 'Any whales taken under >these special permits shall so far as practicable be processed and the proceeds shall be dealt with in accordance with >directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted.' That's the whales, not just the meat from the >whales, and it's to be 'processed' not just slapped on a plate. Yet literally tons of offal, blood, innards, bones and who >knows what else are chucked overboard in the Antarctic, and only the tasty edible bits brought back to Japan. I asked >this question before, and got no answer; why doesn't Japan process the whole whale, in accordance with Article VIII?

What does "processed" mean to you cleo? Does the whale meat have to be CANNED in order to qualify? How else do you "process:" an animal? What Japan is doing with the whale meat fully complies with the IWC requirement no matter how to interpret it. Portions of an animal carcass that can not be viably utilized are discarded in any meat processing procedure, so claiming that Japan is not processing "the wales" because they don't utilize every single portion is ridiculous, although not unexpected. There is no animal (birds/mammals) that we "process" 100% with zero remaining waste. Even Australia did not attempt such an absurd argument in their ICJ claim. By your definition we are not "processing" slaughterhouse beef and pork because we aren't eating the fecal matter in the intestinal tract.

Ossan - Do you not see how centred on meat your argument is? I imagine you don't, because you buy into the 'commercial whaling is OK so long as we don't call it that' scam.

I'm not saying can the meat. I'm not saying eat faecal matter. What I'm saying is that the primary purpose of the Japanese 'scientific research' programme is to get the meat, and this is evident by the failure to even contemplate 'processing' any part of the animal that cannot be eaten. And you basically agree with this, as can be seen from your natural association and comparison with a slaughterhouse, where the primary purpose is - to produce meat.

By-products from the slaughterhouse include hides (for leather), bones (for fertiliser, animal feed), fat (for tallow, cosmetics, soap) and offal not for human consumption (animal feed, pharmaceuticals). And that's in a situation where the primary purpose is to obtain meat. In 'research' whaling the primary purpose is not to obtain meat (right?) and there is an obligation to process as much of the animal as possible; yet Japan takes only the meat. Does not compute.

@cleo

All scientific research on the whales is carried out by the science officers at sea, they check stomach content measure and weaigh the whales and then the research is complete. After that it's only nessecary to keep the meat as the rest is best placed back into the ocean as shark food (recycling)

The meat must not be wasted and is taken carefully back to Tokyo where it is sold in expensive department stores as premium product. Fulfilling the tearms of the loophole.

X

cleoJan. 24, 2014 - 12:09AM JST Ossan - Do you not see how centred on meat your argument is? I imagine you don't, because you buy into >the 'commercial whaling is OK so long as we don't call it that' scam.

Of course it's centered on the meat. It's the anti-whaling crowd that is in denial that the IWC regulations REQUIRE that the whales be processed and are constantly claiming that the eating of whale meat is somehow evidence that there is no research going on. Why those two must be mutually exclusive is beyond me. What I buy into is that large whales are nothing more than big cows of the sea, and if they are not endangered and some countries want to sustainably harvest them, then I really couldn't care less. And to be aware of the populations trends and whether a return to commercial whaling is even feasible, some research must be carried out. It is this process that is being obstructed by those who have an emotional attachment to whales and are against ever lifting the moratorium even if whales some species are found to be abundant.

I'm not saying can the meat. I'm not saying eat faecal matter. What I'm saying is that the primary purpose of the >Japanese 'scientific research' programme is to get the meat, and this is evident by the failure to even >contemplate 'processing' any part of the animal that cannot be eaten. And you basically agree with this, as can be >seen from your natural association and comparison with a slaughterhouse, where the primary purpose is - to produce >meat.

The answer to the issue you raise will be addressed by the ICJ this year. Try to be patient. Whale products as you know are banned from trade and for the most part have been replaced through modern substances like plastics. Attempting to argue that the "Whales are not being processed" because the by-products are not being used like from slaughterhouse cattle which are not legally restricted is absurd.

.

I don't think that's kosher, is it? :-)

Honestly, I don't know why this is news and I doubt that any Muslim is going to be any more interested in eating whale than the average Shinto adherent is going to be.

In other words, if Japan cut the subsidies to the whaling ships they just wouldn't bother doing it, there's no market for it.

cleo - No, not according to me. According to the many people and organisations that have seen fit to put explanations of halal up on the Internet.

Yes, according to you. The experts awarded halal. You object to that. I chose to believe the experts, the people whose job it is to understand what actually constitutes halal, to award halal as they so decide.

.....Then they need to make sure that they have the properly configured space before they leave port, if they want to claim that they are following Article VIII.

The whalers are following Article VIII. The whalers are ignoring your version of Article VIII.

Er, why halal registration? They aren't hunting for meat, but for 'research'. The meat is just a byproduct. I think the whalers just threw away the last shred of pretence that they were doing research.

The research is about what the whales are eating and the results are obtained by opening up the stomach and examining the contents. (Personally, it seems to me a baleen whale isn't going to have a very varied diet, but... whatever.) The rest of the whale is incidental. You can toss the carcass over the side or bring the meat back to port and sell it. They've obviously chose the latter.

@zichi

according to the link you provided,

I didn't provide any link.

So you are saying, eating whale flesh is Haraam not Halal

No, I am saying that I defer to the people who are actually qualified to make that determination.

@cleo

No, not according to me.

Yes according to you. You are the one who picked the sources you posted. Obviously an organization that is qualified to make the determination has done so and certified it halal. It is like any religion, there are many different sects and many different readings of the rules. Look at Christianity, some sects say priest must be single and celibate yet others say priest can be married. Some sects say only men can be priests other says anyone can be.

...they do so intending to take the meat, and only the meat. It's what the whole exercise is about.

They do so intending to catch over 850 whales and thus need to configure the ship for that.

And if they intended in good faith to comply with Article VIII

Article VIII says as far as practical. Preparing to save everything from over 850 whales may not be practical.

Then maybe you should read up a bit on what halal is.

Maybe I have no reason to. I will rely on people who are qualified to make the certification. Are you qualified to do the certification from your 'reading'?

Then they need to make sure that they have the properly configured space before they leave port, if they want to claim that they are following Article VIII.

And there you go ignoring the word practical again. Heck if they really wanted to they could claim dumping the offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else is processing. Just like a farmer plowing the stalks from last years crop into the soil to return nutrients, dumping the offal, blood, innards, bones and who knows what else feeds the local food chain helping sustain the environment from the bacteria up to the krill and small fish that the whales eat. So 'dumping' it could be considered 'processing'.

@Mike O'Brien

"But you are not qualified to certify things as halal or not."

In the use of such words as "qualified," "certify," etc., do you realize you're talking about a 1,500-year old spiritual ritual with absolutely no scientific basis?

"And different sects read the requirements differently."

Exactly. They make up the rules as they go along. Concepts such as "certification" thus become arbitrary, if not totally pointless.

different sects read the requirements differently.

....so, unless we know which sect's rules were used for determining the type of hand cleanser and thus the halal certification, our Muslim friends still can't/won't eat the meat because they have no idea of knowing if it is halal in accordance with the teachings/interpretation of their own particular sect?

So the whole brilliant idea of certifying the ship was a lost cause from the start? a useless undertaking? Yet more taxpayer money thrown into the sea by the whalers?

arrestpaul:

" The experts awarded halal. You object to that. I chose to believe the experts "

...and who are these experts? The article does not say. For that matter, I can declare myself to be an expert on halal, and so can you. One of the charactertistics of islam is that it does not have a church; the holy books are supposed to address the believers directly, so there can be all sorts of contradictory opinions out there, and in fact there are. Just read a fatwah collection to see for yourself.

The various halal certification around the world are often simply a profitable racket to earn a nice profit for this or that self-declared imam. And frankly, that is quite to be expected when you attempt to "certify" something on the basis of 7th century obsure Arab writings.

So please go easy on your laudable faith in these "halal inspectors".

I'm not against whaling per se, but it gets weird to use the research argument when even the killing method is altered fundamentally to appease a (minor) group of potential clients who aren't even (officially) the primary consumers of the product.

I'd like to point out that the halal authorities approved the ship, not the whales in it. I assume the cleanliness of the ship is what is being examined.

But what's the point? The whales are not being killed according to Muslim rules, no one is shouting Allah as they fire off the harpoons (surely....) and... wouldn't it be the harpoon ships that need to be halal?

According to the whalers themselves, the whales are not being killed for the express purpose of providing food which is apparently one of the two Muslim prerequisites for the killing of an animal (the other being that the animal presents a danger, such as a rabid dog).

So the Nisshin Maru could be sparkly clean with its non-alcohol hand cleanser and prayer mats hanging from the rigging, but it wouldn't make any difference to the whales.

I suggest Sea Shepherd start mixing lard in with the rancid butter.

WilliB - ....and who are these experts?

.....So please go easy on your laudable faith in these "halal inspectors".

As opposed to whom, some random internet posters who are neither Muslim or knowledgeable about what actually occurred last year? I still chose to believe the experts, the people whose job it is to understand what actually constitutes halal, to award halal as they so decide.

arrestpaul:

" I still chose to believe the experts, the people whose job it is to understand what actually constitutes halal, "

But you still have not provided any research or who these "experts" are. For all we know, it can be some pakistani kitchen helper in Taiji that they rounded up and paid handsomely for writing a "certificate" in urdu. I suspect the reality is quite close to that.

And anyway, as others have pointed out, this whole ideao of a "halal" certification for a whaling ship is absurd.

@JeffLee

In the use of such words as "qualified," "certify," etc., do you realize you're talking about a 1,500-year old spiritual ritual with absolutely no scientific basis?

Yes I do.

Exactly. They make up the rules as they go along. Concepts such as "certification" thus become arbitrary, if not totally pointless.

And your point? To millions of people that "certification" is important, even though it is arbitrary and has no scientific basis.

@cleo

....so, unless we know which sect's rules were used

I don't care what sects rules were used. I assume the people that do care about the concept of halal will verify the certification to their level of concern.

I suggest Sea Shepherd start mixing lard in with the rancid butter.

They don't use rancid butter.

@Magnus Roe

when even the killing method is altered fundamentally

How has the killing method been altered and where did you find this information?

you are also, apparently, happy to be disrespectful of people of other religions

Hang on a minute there. I am not being disrespectful of Islam. The ones being disrespectful are the people who think switching to non-alcohol handwash and getting a certificate for it will persuade people who care that animals shot with an exploding harpoon in the exact inhumane, horrible way they were before the new hand wash, will be in any way halal. It's as insincere and dishonest - and disrespectful - as carrying out commercial whaling and expecting people to believe you when you claim it's for 'research' because you tip the stomach contents into a bucket and take a picture of the half-digested krill.

Well, at least for Shia, the situation is pretty clear cut. Here is from Imam Sadiq`s website:

""A- Sea creatures. We are allowed to eat any fish as long as it has scales (see list here) . All other sea creatures such as whales, sharks, turtles, lobsters and crabs are Haraam. The only exception is for prawns and shrimps, which can be eaten. ""

Some sunni clerics seem to take a different position. So it seems to me that the Japanese whaling scientists have waded right into an inter-islamic dispute...

cleo - I suggest Sea Shepherd start mixing lard in with the rancid butter.

cleo, cleo, cleo. Now you're advocating for acts of violence against Muslims for being Muslim. The Nisshin Maru was awarded a halal certificate and there is nothing you can do about that. Throwing glass bottles of lard or acid at Muslims isn't going to change that.

Now you're advocating for acts of violence against Muslims for being Muslim. The Nisshin Maru was awarded a halal certificate and there is nothing you can do about that. Throwing glass bottles of lard or acid at Muslims isn't going to change that.

I'm not advocating acts of violence against anyone on account of their religion. I'm not advocating acts of violence against anyone, full stop.

The NM was awarded a halal certificate and there is nothing I can do about that, but a few splatters of lard on its flensing deck would instantly nullify any halal status the non-alcohol hand wash might have conferred on it.

As for throwing glass bottles 'at Muslims' - (1) The rancid butter (hopefully with added lard) is thrown to smash on the deck and make it smell horrible, not thrown at people. (2) Seriously, how many Muslim whalers do you think there are on the NM?

arrestpaul:

" Throwing glass bottles of lard or acid at Muslims isn't going to change that. "

You should before commenting. Cleo suggested throwing lard at the SHIP, which of course would instantly invalidate its fabled Halal status (which does not apply to Shia anyway, see my previous post).

(1) The rancid butter (hopefully with added lard) is thrown to smash on the deck and make it smell horrible, not thrown at people.

As you have already been told, they do not throw rancid butter. And sorry but throwing glass bottles at occupied vessels runs the risk of hitting people, especially when much of the time they can't see where the bottles land.

As you have already been told....

lol. I've also already been told that the ships are out there only to do research, that the whales die instantly, that it's important that hundreds of them die every year, and that it's because of IWC regulations that the meat and only the meat has to be brought back to Japan.

Didn't they teach you in school not to believe everything you're told?

@cleo

I suggest Sea Shepherd start mixing lard in with the rancid butter.

Suggesting violence against another nation which holds different beliefs than your own! Tisk tisk! Next you will be calling for war. Or searching for WMD .

TeacherX:

Nobody suggested "violence against a nation".

I've also already been told

Well I didn't tell you any of those things. So why not address what I wrote rather than what someone else wrote?

I've been told that whaling is illegal, that all whales are endangered, that whales are special, and that it's CITES regulations make it illegal to hunt any endangered animal.

But since I know not to believe everything I'm told, I actually looked into those topics myself. And I found that every one of them wasn't true.

The halal ship is now apparently 600 miles outside the whaling grounds, is surrounded by SS ships and has given up trying to outrun them.

Not that the wailers haven't already done a fair bit of dirty work - there are whale entrails floating in the water.

https://www.seashepherd.org.au/news-and-media/2014/01/25/japanese-whalers-running-out-of-steam-1562

is surrounded by SS ships and has given up trying to outrun them.

And 3 weeks ago when they were 'surrounded' it took them 2 days to gives the SSCS the slip and continue killing whales, while the SSCS ran away from the ships of the fleet that were chasing them.

Oh, well that makes everything okay then!

cleoJan. 25, 2014 - 12:01AM JST I'm not advocating acts of violence against anyone on account of their religion. I'm not advocating acts of violence >against anyone, full stop.

Anyone, regardless of their position on the whaling issue one way or the other, who supports Sea Shepherd is advocating violence.

"“You don’t need a peg leg or an eye patch. When you ram ships; hurl glass containers of acid; drag metal-reinforced ropes in the water to damage propellers and rudders; launch smoke bombs and flares with hooks; and point high-powered lasers at other ships, you are, without a doubt, a pirate, no matter how high-minded you believe your purpose to be,” wrote Chief Judge Alex Kozinski of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals."

I'm always shocked that people are so opposed to whaling. Democracy shouldn't be the tyranny of the majority. No one should hunt endangered animals. I'd be shocked if we're arguing about this for 50 years and people still pointed a finger at how bad Japan was for hunting something noone else in the world wanted to eat.

Inhumane but halal, what a laugh!

It's Halal precisely because it's not inhumane. At least the Muslim community has shown they are open minded enough to certify this meat. It seems odd to me that so many people who claim to be tolerant are unwilling to accept that the Japanese have their own culture and their own food. During my time in Japan I've eaten copious amounts of whale and it is delicious!

Sorry Cleo, but the law is the law, and what's caught must be eaten under the international agreements.

Wow! So they might sell an extra 5 kilos a year of that foul, fatty, fish-stinky stuff a year. Maybe.

This is NOT considered Halal in the Muslim world

Well obviously a Muslim qualified to issue the certification has deemed it halal. So at least in some parts of the Muslim world it IS considered Halal.

If I want a Mercury fix, I'll suckle on a thermometer. lol

Most thermometers no longer have mercury in them. LOL But you can get your desired dose from just about any seafood. Even many freshwater species would work.

SS reports that the Bob Barker has 'secured' the slipway of the halal ship, ensuring that no whale carcasses can be loaded for butchering. 'Research' has been stopped.

So far this 'research' season, the icr is very, very quiet. Not a single enraged 'they is harassing and terrorismizing our perfectly legal culinary/religous research' video, photo or press release so far.

Well done SS, keep up the good work.

http://www.seashepherd.org.au/news-and-media/2014/01/30/sea-shepherd-secures-the-slipway-of-the-nisshin-maru-whaling-halted-1564

SS reports that the Bob Barker has 'secured' the slipway of the halal ship, ensuring that no whale carcasses can be loaded for butchering. 'Research' has been stopped.

And we heard the same thing about 4 weeks ago. Then a few days later the SSCS ships were running from harpoon ships while the Nisshin Maru and at least one harpoon ship were free to get back to killing whales.

we heard the same thing about 4 weeks ago.

No. I think you're getting confused between 'securing the slipway' and 'confirming the location of the halal ship'.

For most of the time the location of the halal ship and one harpoon ship was unknown, the weather was bad enough to assume that no whales were being killed.

Now that the halal slipway is blocked, hopefully the wailers will give up and go home, as they have done before. Having a blocked slipway doesn't prevent the fleet doing the bona fide sighting surveys they're supposed to be doing in addition to their butchering activities, but it seems they aren't really interested in that - no meat involved.

No not confusing anything. About 4 weeks ago the SSCS claimed to be blocking the slipway and preventing any whaling. I mean since they sent photos of Minke whales on deck it is kind of hard to claim they didn't know where the Nisshin Maru was.

It was a few days later that they lost contact with the Nisshin Maru and one harpoon ship, while the SSCS was on the run.

Hmmm, the SSCS claims to be trying to force them out of the non-existent whale sanctuary. I believe that could easily cause problems with trying to follow their desired paths for sighting surveys.

About 4 weeks ago the SSCS claimed to be blocking the slipway

No. This is the first time this season that SS have claimed to be blocking the slipway - a very effective tactic that prevents any carcasses being loaded onto the factory ship.

I mean since they sent photos of Minke whales on deck it is kind of hard to claim they didn't know where the Nisshin Maru was.

Knowing where the halal ship is and being able to take photos of it from a helicopter, is not the same as blocking its slipway. Reports 'about 4 weeks ago' were that they had found the factory ship and taken photos of three dead whales and signs that another had already been butchered (7th Jan) and that the harpoon ship Yushin Maru 3 had stopped one mile outside the Australian EEZ (9th Jan). About 2 weeks ago (16th Jan) they reported that while they had lost sight of the halal ship and its harpoon buddies, the weather was so bad and visibility so poor that it was extremely unlikely that any whales were being killed.

https://www.seashepherd.org.au/

Can you provide a link to where you think SS were claiming to be blocking the slipway 4 weeks ago?