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LGBT groups, educators call for diversity in school uniforms

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Why have uniforms in the first place?

The official explanation is that it promotes harmony and team spirit. Also, it reduces class discrimination, as it is difficult to determine ones wealth when all are wearing the same uniform. It also keeps students from engaging in delinquent activities, as they would be identified easily.

22 ( +28 / -6 )

A middle-aged bloke used to turn up regularly for years in the local Mr Donuts, resplendent in his girls’ school uniform.

The great thing was that absolutely nobody reacted in any way that might have made him uncomfortable. School kids, salarymen, mothers with little children, nobody mocked or gave much more than a second glance.

He’d likely have been physically attacked in many parts of England.

Made me happy to be in Japan.

20 ( +24 / -4 )

He’d likely have been physically attacked in many parts of England.

Made me happy to be in Japan.

In the US as well. I've seen people verbally mocked or physically assaulted by complete strangers because of they dress like a "fag," "punk," "gang-banger," "redneck," "nerd," and whatnot.

Thankfully Japan has mostly refrained from this nonsense.

19 ( +20 / -1 )

I hear tell that some of today's youth are even scorning appropriate items of millinery. Young gentlemen shamelessly bareheaded in the very street, utterly heedless of societal rules.

It makes one fear for our futures.

It makes me sick.

Weirdos.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

Me thinks some protest too much, perhaps the idea of freedom threatens their own sexuality too much

One thinks of the hypocrisy in Victorian times; when there was much tutting and endless tracts on "morality".

And yet, all that time, there were people engaging in same sex partnerships and activity. Cross dressing and so forth.

Live and let live.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

I wonder what those who get so worked up about the idea of flexibility in school uniform rules would do if they visit countries such as Bhutan or Scotland? Drop dead from fits when they realize even “manly” men can wear skirts?

I personally an am not interested at all in whether whatever is determined by genetics or whatever and how big are the percentages of whatever kind of people in the general population. I just think people should basically be allowed to wear what they want to wear.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

@Dan

A man/boy who prefers a skirt over trousers is by no means automatically gay... No need to “come out” in many cases.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

If the handful of individuals who want to use their school as their crossdressing playground are barred from doing so, the world won't end.

Conversely if those who want to dress up differently than others of their gender, the world won’t end

Let's just make it so everyone can dress as they feel comfortable.

Why all the hubbub and commotion?

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Because I think private schools have the right to do as they please, without other people forcing their views and beliefs on them.

This article is not about private schools.

And as far as being able to do as they please, is that without exception? Should they be able to incite violence against other races? Should they be able to have dog-fights and cock-fights on school grounds? How about pit fights between the kids?

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Because I think private schools have the right to do as they please, without other people forcing their views and beliefs on them.

Don't like a school's policy? Don't apply.

How about forcing a Buddhist school to put up a statue of Jesus because one of the kids might be Christian.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. Why push such a false narrative?

From the article:

"School uniforms could consist of blazers (for all students), with a choice between pants and skirts, ribbons and neckties," proposed the 33-year-old, who was born with female characteristics but does not clearly identify as male or female.

It's a choice. An option. A proposal.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Scientifically, all mammals have binary genders, either you're XX or XY.

Scientifically you have binary sex - XX or XY. Gender is the cultural concepts based upon your sex - what you have between your legs is a matter of science, but choosing whether to wear a skirt is a cultural concept.

8 ( +18 / -10 )

Both gender (a socio-cultural concept) and sex (a rather biological concept) are A LOT more than binary. Ask any biologist, any geneticist, or even any nurse, if you will. I learned about this issue in school, 30 years ago. For starters:

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html#XXX%20Females

8 ( +14 / -6 )

Everyone hates school. Suck it up, you can do what you want once youve done your time. 

Most perhaps but not everyone.

However, I agree with you entirely, kids go to school to be educated and there should be none of this nonsense allowed. After leaving school they can do whatever they choose but may possibly have grown out of it by adulthood.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

I like school uniforms. Why not just have a gender neutral uniform, or allow students to wear either the uniform skirt or trousers as they choose? It's not a big deal.

I don't see why people are upset by this - it doesn't harm you or impinge on your life in anyway if some students want to wear something different.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

I do beleive that at school all should be equal. This is reflected bya uniform uniform

On the contrary, what you are proposing is not equal. If it's equal, it means they are able to choose the same variations of uniform if that's what they want. You are saying that only some kids should be allowed to wear some uniforms - that's not equality.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

 We expressed our individuality with our shoes and socks, which were not regulated. 

So why not just let the kids express their individuality from head to toes?

The official explanation for that would be that schools would like to avoid "fashion wars" and the subsequent forming of factions and have the students concentrate on academic progress. Exotic fashion and hairstyling is also, unfortunately, seen as related to delinquency.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

I can't fathom the fear factor on this. Is this going to impact on any posters here? This option?

Is anyone's freedom being threatened by this call?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Me thinks some protest too much, perhaps the idea of freedom threatens their own sexuality too much. Freedom of choice, as we all should have, you can choose to condem those who use it, or accept it. It's your freedom of choice and their is a whole rainbow of choices because.....Freedom Of Choice. Remember if it's not hurting anyone except those who are jealous, who cares.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Why should the majority have to change to suit the minority?

Because the majority is trying to limit the freedom of the minority (aka oppression) even though the actions the minority want to take do not have any impact upon the lives of the majority.

Or to look at it another way, if the 'cross dressers' have the right to dress as they please, no one's freedoms are impacted. If the 'anti-cross-dressers' win, then they are limiting the freedoms of the 'cross dressers'. So why should the majority have to change? Because the majority are limiting the freedoms of the minority.

Are you anti-freedom?

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Burning BushToday  07:05 pm JST

And can anyone tell me my nudists are required to wear clothes in public and in school.

Nudism is a hobby, not an identity.

It's kind of sad that someone who spent this thread pretending his whole position was based on science is fundamentally misrepresenting the principles at work in this discussion. But then, that's always how these discussions go, isn't it. The person attacking everyone whose cisgender status or sexual orientation isn't the same as theirs first pretends their objection is based on science, then they denigrate the complexity of human sexuality by comparing another person's entire sexual identity to a passing interest. I suppose we should be grateful you didn't try to pretend it was equivalent to a fetish or mental disorder.

I look forward to moving on to stage three, where you claim "it just isn't natural" so we can get through this sad, pathetic ritual someone has to force on us every time there is a story even mentioning anyone showing the slightest respect or acceptance towards non-cis or LGBT people.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

Naked? Dear Mr Burning Bush, that's not on the cards. You obviously feel some deep fear of the recognition of others different than yourself. Although you probably laugh at the cross dressers on TV. They are not attacking YOU, just want to feel normal in their skin. As the Gods created them. Is it ok to be different from your norms?

7 ( +11 / -4 )

And if a child wanted to "choose" to walk naked in school, why not allow him? Why force social norms upon him?

Burning Bush seems to have an unhealthy obsession with nudism. Quite why he thinks that, say a girl opting to wear trousers equates to a child coming in nude is beyond me.

Nudism in public is clearly unacceptable in any context outside of nudist resorts. By contrast, wearing trousers or skirts is clearly acceptable and everyday.

What troubles Mr Bush is that people might do so not in accordance with their sex, but rather follow their gender.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Keep Japan as it is.

Except that many people in Japan want this to change. They want the country to move with the times, as the world is changing. I can't understand why so many people like yourself want Japan to be Texas 1950, when it's actually 2017.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Burning BushToday  08:11 am JST

The current system, which Japan has used for over a hundred years, of boys wearing pants and girls wearing skirts, is just fine.

Actually, many schools in Japan already allow girls to wear slacks instead of skirts, if they wish. You're engaging in hysterics over at best a minor evolution in the dress code.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Burning BushToday  08:11 am JST

“I'm advocating the Status Quo, .....The current system, which Japan has used for over a hundred years, of boys wearing pants and girls wearing skirts, is just fine.

Keep Japan as it is.”

Of course the status quo before that was boys wearing kimono, not trousers. So can we assume you would have been opposed to the switch to trousers? Or are you selective about when we must stick to the status quo?

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Burning Bush…. human beings are not ONLY a product of their genes… i think sexuality is a bit more complex than that...

6 ( +20 / -14 )

If you want diverse uniforms, you actually want multiforms.

Fortunately I never wore a school uniform in my childhood, and I don't think it scarred me, I will grant that much.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Western craziness is infiltrating Japan unfortunately - we wore school uniforms there were LG people at school they followed the rules at school and went their way after school was out.

6 ( +16 / -10 )

You should put us to work solving the national debt problem that you 98.4%ers caused. You sure can't solve it.

I very much fear that if you people are confused by something as simple as gender, economics just might be a little over your head.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

I don't see it as boys wearing skirts but rather ditching the breeks for kilts. Much more comfy in the summer lads.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

1- Trans kids becoming targets precisely because they choose the other uniform. But I guess it's a kind of darned-if-you-do/darned-if-you-don't decision.

Then it will be up to the kids which uniform they feel more comfortable in. Right now, they are not given that option. At the moment, they are told 'wear this', whether it works for them or not.

Kids have enough to deal with without adults shoving complex sexuality issues onto them.

These issues are not shoved upon them, they are issues that the kids are already facing themselves. It's adults like the posters in this thread who scream 'status quo' to deafen any comments made that would give good reason to do something other than the status quo that are shoving issues upon the kids.

I think each school has the right to choose it's own uniform policy. If they choose to allow girls to wear trousers, I think that's fine.

Conversely, if they wish to maintain a boys wear trousers and girls wear skirts policy than they should be allowed to do so.

So you would also agree that if a school wishes to allow both boys and girls choose the uniform they are comfortable with, that would be fine as well, right?

if boys are allowed to wear skirts, I can see no justification for barring male teachers from doing so as well.

Maybe, but that's neither here nor there, as teachers already have a different dress code (teachers are not wearing uniforms), so their own dress code is an entirely different topic of discussion from this one. The only reason that I can see for bringing up the teacher's dress code is to try to obfuscate the current issue. You wouldn't be doing that, would you? I'll assume you wouldn't obfuscate purposefully, so now that it's been pointed out to you, I'm sure we won't see any more comments doing so... right?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@BurningBush We LGBT are 1.6% of the population. How is letting 1.6% be themselves going to ruin your life? There are much bigger issues in life.

5 ( +18 / -13 )

Recently JT had an article about forcing left-handed people to use their right hand instead. Forcing people to do what you think is “right and proper” helps you sleep at night but causes the other person anxiety, a feeling of worthlessness.

The problem with LGBT people in Japan (and the world) is not with the LGBT people; it is with the others who refuse to accept that people can be different. Boys MUST wear X and play with Y and work to support the family; Girls MUST wear A and play with B and cook. Surprise, there are boys who want to cook and girls who want to play with Y.

Look at some countries - they kill LGBT people - I mean, state-sanctioned executions because the LGBT are NOT what the state wants boys and girls to be.

Learning to accept other people as they are is an important step in being an adult.

5 ( +18 / -13 )

When I was in school in the USA in the 60s many of us girls rebelled against the rule that we had to wear skirts. We successfully demanded the right to wear pants when we wished. (If it had been a bit later maybe some of the boys would have been brave enough to demand the right to wear skirts.) The world didn’t end and I doubt if it would here in Japan if the uniform rules were more flexible.

Had I gone to school in Japan I think I might also have campaigned for a choice of colors in the uniforms as wearing the typical dark colors every day probably would have killed my soul ;-) (I’ve been glad to see the wide range of colors now acailable in the school backpacks for elementary kids at least.)

5 ( +10 / -5 )

This has already been addressed, but...

Burning Bush…. human beings are not ONLY a product of their genes… i think sexuality is a bit more complex than that...

That's true. And uniforms aren't worn to advertise your sexuality.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

Burning Bush, please limit your American republican platform problems to the USA. I do not follow your "logic" at all which is typical of trump supporting Americans. Look Japan will do what is best for Japan and not the USA. If my grandson wants to be a girl and dress like a girl it not your concern.

5 ( +15 / -10 )

Katsu78,

Just to support your statement about gender and sex, here is a link about the level of prenatal testosterone as it effects gender and autism.

https://spectrumnews.org/opinion/linking-autism-sex-gender-and-prenatal-hormones/

5 ( +6 / -1 )

I think in this day with diversity and equal pay for equal work, there is no need for rules which categorize people by gender.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

are all homosexual suffering from a genetic fault or are many being reprogrammed to think its perfectly fine being a homosexual even if you dont actually suffer from the condition. 

None of the above. Homosexuality is perfectly normal and has been a part of both humanity and the animal kingdom since the dawn of time. It’s not a ‘condition’, and the only people suffering are those who are oppressed by those who would limit others freedoms simply because it makes them a little uncomfortable.

My question is how much is society making people suffer from this condition and how much is it purely genetic!?

It’s genetic. The science is long proven on that point.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

I just asked one of my students about this after reading the article together. He said (and I quote):

"it's not the uniform that I don't like. It's the principal's restriction that I don't like. I want to wear any shirt in my closet. And any pair of pants."

I then asked him about boys wearing skirts and he said that he thinks many boys would do it. When asked why, he replied that they would do it for fun, but would return to pants the next day.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Uniforms can be both good and bad.

As a kid who grew up in a difficult financial situation it can help that on top of everything else school isn't an expensive fashion show but even which shoes and bag you have becomes issue, so cheaply available uniforms I'm not against. In Japan like many other places though official uniforms have become expensive, suffering through winter because you can't afford the several hundred dollar blazer shouldn't be something you have to do.

The uniforms, though don't have to be so gender specific though, a polo or shirt and pants, skirt or shorts, a jumper for winter etc fine by me, tidy and non distracting, choose which ever combo you want seems totally acceptable to me.

The bad, well for Japan a bit of individualism throughout younger life may help in helping people be the kinds of thinkers and leaders that Japan needs to move forward.

And on gender.. if someone is brave enough to be public about the way they are at that time in their life they should be able to wear whatever they want, not everyone has to fit into other peoples idea of a two choice tick box.

It worries me that so much time is spent on this, not because I think everyone should fall in line or because people shouldn't be supported, but because all made to such a big deal and so massive and it really isn't, let people wear whatever, call themselves whatever they want and lets move on, in 50 years time no-one will care at all so lets just get on with solving some real issues with the economy and environment.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@Dan

Then lend me lots of money ; )

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Burning BushOct. 15  08:35 pm JST

The issue is whether they can express their proclivities in public, especially in schools.

Again, sexual identity is not a "proclivity". It's not a choice. Funny how the guy who spent half this thread pretending he was backed up by science has completely changed course without even acknowledging that he was completely wrong.

The mods deleted my previous comment that violated none of the board rules whatsoever, but it's worth repeating: the sad part about all of this is you have reactionaries acting like the mere existence of openly transgender people is somehow an inconvenience on cisgender people, completely unwilling to face the far greater imposition cisgender people make by demanding trans people conform to cis cultural constructs. "I have no problem with them, just so long as they completely pretend to be like me and never let me think that they exist," is the mindset we're dealing with.

The same demographic that constantly throws out insults about "delicate snowflakes" routinely falls to pieces at the mere mention of transgender people being taken seriously.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

I can't understand why so many people like yourself want Japan to be Texas 1950, when it's actually 2017.

Fear. It's a huge factor with this kind of narrative. It goes back to civil rights, suffragism any kind of equal rights that improves the freedoms and well-being of people.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

I'm advocating the Status Quo, in that schools should not be forced to change their policies to cater to a tiny minority.

Your logic here is that if something is already being done, and it doesn't affect that many people, it should be left in place regardless of the moralities of the matter.

I'm sure pretty much anyone can see the failure in logic there. But some people won't want to see that failure.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Learning to accept other people as they are is an important step in being an adult.

So when will the liberals start accepting the conservatives?

4 ( +16 / -12 )

Fukuoka Girls' Commercial High School from this school year beginning in April started letting students choose between skirts and pants regardless of gender identity. "We're careful that (the uniform) doesn't force our students to come out at school," the school's principal, Haruo Shibata, explained at the symposium.

You know, Mr. Shibata, once a boy starts wearing a skirt at school, it's going to be pretty hard not "to come out at school"

So are they concerned about students' "gender identity" or about their sexual preferences? It seems like a bunch of none-of-your-business, with a little has-nothing-to-do-with-school mixed in as well.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Burning BushToday  07:13 am JST

Scientifically, all mammals have binary genders, either you're XX or XY.

It's always cute when someone who doesn't understand science tries to use science to argue their prejudices, and in doing so proves they don't understand the science.

Your chromosomes determine your genetic sex, not your gender. They're two different things.

Your genetic sex is just one of the factors that could be used to determine your biological sex.

Your biological sex is often decided at birth by nothing more than exterior visual observation of your genitals. A genetic sex test is rarely conducted at all.

Gender is a social construct. It is not presently known if any component of it comes from genetics. Since we don't know where it comes from, we can't possibly assert it is decided by your X or Y chromosomes.

And most importantly, none of this has any bearing on whether or not schools should adapt their uniform policies to be more flexible.

Listen: sex is complicated, and it doesn't stop being complicated because you want it to be simple. Other people experience the world differently from how you do. Best to make peace with that fact, because denialism gets tedious.

4 ( +14 / -10 )

I think it sounds like a good idea. To me, it's always felt odd that girls were forced to wear skirts when it's so widely accepted that girls can wear pants too, and I can fully understand why some of them would feel uncomfortable showing that amount of skin. I also fully support boys wearing skirts if they feel like, even though I know that notion is not yet as accepted in society.

Another point, why is this issue being connected to sexuality? You cannot tell someone's sexuality from their clothes. Being transgender says absolutely nothing about your sexual preferences, just how you view your own gender. Besides that, I don't feel like a boy wearing a skirt MUST be transgender. Letting our gender decide what colors and shapes of fabric we can wear seems so outdated and ridiculous. Honestly, there's no rational reason for it.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Perhaps most LGBT activists think that 18 year old boys, who "identify" as girls, have every right to compete in Woman's Wrestling, Ice Hockey, Judo and Weightlifting.

This is about school uniform. Your straw men analogy doesn't fit in here, I'm afraid.

It's about choice. If a female student is uncomfortable wearing a skirt and would prefer to wear trousers, would you deny her the choice?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Personally, I find the prospect of a male teacher with makeup, blouse and skirt, somewhat unprofessional and inappropriate.

This is about choice in school uniform; it's not about the teachers. If and when that ever happens, that's a separate issue.

Your tactic here is one of pure obfuscation and goal shifting.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Burning Bush, you seem to be extremely concerned with private schools and their ability to choose their own dress codes.

I see NOTHING in this article that talks about a law that would affect private school dress codes. Do you?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Caterting to tiny minorities is not practical.

Ahh, the old 'oppression is ok as long as you just don't do it to too many people' argument.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Lots of private schools don't have uniforms. My schools did. It was to promote uniformity and not encourage difference (you know that nail that sticks out). We expressed our individuality with our shoes and socks, which were not regulated. Anyway, Japan modernized education based on the Prussian model, which included uniforms. Prussia no longer exists, but the Prussian education system lives on in Japan.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

 We expressed our individuality with our shoes and socks, which were not regulated. 

So why not just let the kids express their individuality from head to toes?

3 ( +11 / -8 )

In mammals, gender is purely, definitively and undeniably binary.

Incorrect. Sex is nearly binary, though there are 'hermaphrodites' and people who aren't neatly on one end of the spectrum or the other.

But gender has long been known to be fluid.

It's the difference between our hardware and our software. Sex is our genitals. Gender is our mind.

Your sexuality is your private business and doesn't concern the rest of us, why do all of us have to revamp all of society just to cater to the proclivities of a few people.

Because those 'few people' are people to, and have a right to be treated as human beings, same as the rest of us.

3 ( +17 / -14 )

Freedom of choice, isn't that what God, Gods, Bongo the clown gave us. Why are so many people against the right to use it? Could it be they are more comefortable with no freedom of choice except their ability to judge others. What a bizarre world.

Based on a Prussian model, just a tad outdated. Might be time to overhaul, actually long over due. Teachers training, buildings, structure of lessons, end goals and these silly uniforms particularly those demeaning "sailor" and "military" uniforms. There you go I can judge too.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Nothing complicated at all about sex and gender.

Burning Bush - well, in your previous posts you seem to display some confusion about the difference between sex and gender, so it must be a little bit complicated.

But as you say, societies tend to have clearly demarked roles and dress styles for men and women. You seem to be very happy to accept this status quo and unwilling to allow a minority to dress as they want. Why shouldn't they and what difference does it make to you?

Women were once unable to vote because of their sex. In many countries people of the same sex can now marry. Attitudes to sex and gender have always shifted and changed.

3 ( +10 / -7 )

Ex-Res.

No one needs to change that is the point, just more freedom of choice for people who are not comfortable with the current system/standard.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

This doesn't even have to be an LGBT thing. Yes it is an LGBT group that brought it up, but think of it in this simple way: Women like pants. Ties are cool. The Scottish were probably on to something with kilts.

None of this is a big deal. Just let students wear what's comfortable. Almost every school in the USA allows a choice between pants or skirts.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Why does it hurt to be tolerant and let people, no matter how small numbers we imagine there would be, have a choice? I do not think that my identity or culture will be ruined if a gay couple can marry and be legally recognized as a married couple, or a family. The same is with clothes, I do not see how allowing students to choose between pants and skirts would destroy anything.

As long as I can tell, nobody is suggesting forcing girls to wear pants or boys to wear skirts. It is actually now that they are forced to comply with what someone else picked for them as appropriate. As a female, I would personally always pick long pants over a skirt, in winter. Or ever. It is just more practical and easier to commute, in my opinion. Also, funny thing with sex/gender--how it is assigned! Have you thought about it? All it usually takes is a doctor (or maybe a midwife) in the delivery room. They take a loom at the baby's external genitalia and declare it a boy or a girl. That's it. If they think that the shape does not conform, there are surgeries to make "it" look as they think it should.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Also, it reduces class discrimination, as it is difficult to determine ones wealth when all are wearing the same uniform.

This was probably true 20 years ago, not so much today though. Wouldn't be surprised if today's rich kids have more expensive mobile phones, better tablets, stationery etc.

Plus from what I have seen in countries where uniforms are the norm (like a few on here, I have never had to wear a school uniform), the most exclusive & prestigious schools use uniforms to promote their elitist brand in/outside the school i.e not quite the 'we are all the same' mantra the pro-uniform brigade are trying to sell us.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

I’ve worked at four different high schools in Japan; only one of those schools required uniforms. The three public high schools I worked at in Osaka never required uniforms. A private high school I taught at was the only high school that required uniforms.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Well, I wear women's shorts because it's really hard to find shorts for men that are above the knee. Who ever decided that fashion trend needs a pie in the face. They look so stupid.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's the difference between our hardware and our software. Sex is our genitals. Gender is our mind. well our hardware is almost set in every person besides a small minority of defects, the software well thats an entirely different subject, are all homosexual suffering from a genetic fault or are many being reprogrammed to think its perfectly fine being a homosexual even if you dont actually suffer from the condition. Humans personalities arent just decided on their genetic makeup, society plays a big part in moulding that person into how they think/behave. My question is how much is society making people suffer from this condition and how much is it purely genetic!?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

We LGBT are 1.6% of the population

try 10% according to studies.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Sometimes, I tell cashiers that I identify as a 78-year old man, and that I would like a senior citizen discount.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Gokai: You should put us to work solving the national debt problem that you 98.4%ers caused. You sure can't solve it.

Landofexcuses: I very much fear that if you people are confused by something as simple as gender, economics just might be a little over your head.

Only that it is not the LGBT people who are confused about their gender. Rather it is the rest of the world, predominantly those who cannot accept LGBT people as they are because their gender-identification does not fit the old-fashioned gender norms and expectations set by (deeply religious) societies centuries ago.

BB: And can anyone tell me my nudists are required to wear clothes in public and in school.

You seem to be overly concerned with nudists but they have no bearing on the topic of gender and sexuality and, though you obviously don’t agree, on school uniforms.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Burning BushToday  09:56 am JST

Actually, many schools in Japan already allow girls to wear slacks instead of skirts

No problem with me.

It's obviously a problem for you because you keep posting deceitful comments here against it, jumping to completely different angles of attack every time you get conclusively rebutted. First you pretended to have a science-based objection, and when you were shown to not understand the science at all you switched pretending transgender identity was a hobby, and when that tactic was defeated you switched again. It obviously deeply troubles you that transgender people exist, and you really need to get over it.

Burning BushToday  10:30 am JST

I think each school has the right to choose it's own uniform policy.

Ah, the latest deceitful tactic: pretending the schools' right to choose their own uniform policy is somehow being put into question merely because people with experience being LGBT expressed an opinion about it.

Japanese schools already have the right to choose their policy. LGBT people, the most informed group about the needs of LGBT students, having thoughts and ideas on those policies and choosing to express those thoughts and ideas doesn't take control of those policies away from schools. Just how hateful does a person have to be to pretend LGBT people merely expressing opinions about how to better take care of LGBT students is an inherent threat to the independence of schools?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@koiwaicoffee I was just talking about the situation in the 80s an 90s when I was going through school.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Based on a Prussian model, just a tad outdated. Might be time to overhaul, actually long over due. Teachers training, buildings, structure of lessons, end goals and these silly uniforms particularly those demeaning "sailor" and "military" uniforms. There you go I can judge too.

Most schools in Japan now use British private school style blazer/sports coat style uniforms.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Well, all I can say is that if we, the 1.6%, can totally destroy your 98.4%'s culture, I guess we are a lot smarter than you are. You should put us to work solving the national debt problem that you 98.4%ers caused. You sure can't solve it.

1 ( +14 / -13 )

"It's hard to feel like you have to live up to some idea of 'masculinity' or 'femininity.' There are many students who would have an easier time going to school if they were free to dress as they like," Yoshioka said.

Abe's 12 arrow? Let the kids be kids and stop pushing this crap at them.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

This sounds okay to me. Hopefully we can transition to a society where all kinds of sexuality are accepted. One corollary would be that sexuality alone would not be something that annoying Z list celebrities could trade on for attention. If universal acceptance could be achieved, their sexuality would be no more interesting than anyone else's.

LGBT are very good at campaigning for their rights, and I think other minorities could learn from them. It is notable that LGBT choosing the uniforms they want has emerged as an issue in Japan before Japanese young women have rebelled against having to wear skirts. I'm from the UK and it happened there twenty five years ago. A girl from the comprehensive I attended myself took that school to the European Court for the right to wear trousers.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Lessons of history to be learned from another nation.

In a study published last year, Chinese academics have called for stronger “gender-difference education,” arguing that “the crisis of masculinity in effeminate men is considered a peril to the security of the nation because it reflects powerlessness, inferiority, feminised passivity, and social deterioration reminiscent of the colonial past when China was defeated by the colonising West.”

Chinese media has portrayed the “lack of manhood not only as a public menace and a threat to the family, but also as a metaphor for passive masculinity and national crisis,”. Distinctive gender roles and strong manhood were considered “crucial in safeguarding the security of the nation."

1 ( +7 / -6 )

How on earth do you "flout a tendency"?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

There seems to be a lot of imposing western values onto Japanese in these posts. Sex is a question of taste (趣味). I've been out since junior high and never had a problem and was a class leader. We have had nationally popular trans singers forever etc etc etc. We just don't look at things like that. If you've been living in Japan and still have not picked up on the cultural construction of sexuality, your connection with Japan has been very tangential.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@goodlucktoyou The studies I've seen while in grad school in the early 2000s said LGBT is pretty universally and stably 1.6%. 10%? I'm much more unique that that. That means that 1 in 10 people is gay, and that just does not match my experience. 1.6 in 100 is about right. Maybe 10% if you live in San Franscisco.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Wow, this thread has 83 comments (well, now 84). I know that is not a new record, but it is up there at the top I guess. Nice to see so much interest in the topic, even if some of the comments are depressing.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

I identify with a rich man. Please treat me accordingly.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Aye, there's a lot of confusion these days over whats what. This needs sorting out.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Never knew school uniforms in my country, they were dropped like sex segregated schools a long time ago.

School Uniforms aren't making life all that easier as each student needs multiple sets, plus repairs like worn cuffs, collars, etc aren't that easily and quickly fixed.

I am all for school uniforms being dropped. Archaic/outdated in my honest opinion.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

So when will the liberals start accepting the conservatives?

the day conservatives accept the fact that you hated obama just because of his race.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

BB.

XX and XY been disproven as being the sole deciding factor over many decades ago, or how do you explain women with XY and men with XX chromosomes, or the existence of XXY, etc.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

According to this web page: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

about 1 in 1,666 are not XY XX or XXY

about 1 in 1000 are XXY

Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female : 1 in 100 births

Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance : 1 or 2 in 1,000 births

0 ( +2 / -2 )

As long as they wear one of the school uniforms, I don't see what the big deal is.

I have two worries, though:

1- Trans kids becoming targets precisely because they choose the other uniform. But I guess it's a kind of darned-if-you-do/darned-if-you-don't decision.

2- Adult trans advocates who put kids' sexuality in the spotlight to advance their own agendas. Kids have enough to deal with without adults shoving complex sexuality issues onto them. Uniforms may be one thing, but if this is only the thin end of the wedge, I worry about recommendations of hormonal therapy and surgery, before the kids have even become full-grown adults. Growth means change, and since growing kids still may change more along the way, the potential for trauma caused by people who think they're doing the right thing is also substantial.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I understand the concept of uniform and I also like it myself. But in Japan uniforms are a way to get crazy amount of money with 50,000 blazer and 20,000 for a pair of pants.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Chugmagaga:

Just buy a solid colour blazer and pants online. ¥1000 pants and ¥7000 blazer, depending on colour. Get the school logo patch separate.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

While half of the world is discussing about same sex marriage or the freedom to choose dress which is supposed to be worn by another sex, I am trying all my best to convince my parents about intercaste marriage (Which they are strongly opposing), so that I (Boy) could get married with girl whom I love.

Guess, we all are fighting our own fights.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I understand the concept of uniform and I also like it myself. But in Japan uniforms are a way to get crazy amount of money with 50,000 blazer and 20,000 for a pair of pants.

It really is a ripoff when you think about it.

Caterting to tiny minorities is not practical.

I agree.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why have uniforms in the first place?

-1 ( +14 / -15 )

Everyone hates school. Suck it up, you can do what you want once youve done your time. This gender confusion and demanding people to question the simple fact that we are born either boy or a girl just makes everyone confused. These new LGBT rights informers have played havoc with the Australian school system and a lot of the stuff is coming to light only now. Be wary.

-1 ( +14 / -15 )

So if a student is "uncomfortable" wearing a tie, can they opt out of that too?

This is getting out of control.

Scientifically, all mammals have binary genders, either you're XX or XY.

There are two types and only two types, ask any geneticist.

No matter how hare you try, or how many operations you have, you can never "identify" yourself out of your DNA. Either you have XX or you have XY.

-2 ( +26 / -28 )

Because those 'few people' are people to, and have a right to be treated as human beings, same as the rest of us.

Crossdressers are human beings too, but in public, they have to conform to societal norms.

In private they may do as they please.

Don't expect 98.4% of society to adapt to your particular proclivities.

-2 ( +18 / -20 )

"There are many students who would have an easier time going to school if they were free to dress as they like."

So get rid of the uniforms!

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

I assume that the desire for respect, at least from peers, is a basic human trait. Acceptance or toleration are not respect. If alphabet people* and your everyday sort of cross-dresser want respect, that’ll have to be negotiated on a person-to-person basis. If it’s left to governments to guarantee respect they’ll do as good a job of that as they do with most things.

*LGBTQ+ (the list ever lengthens)

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Bertie…. there you have it…

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

 i think sexuality is a bit more complex than that...

Sure, but Gender isn't.

In mammals, gender is purely, definitively and undeniably binary.

There is no XZ or ZZ or LG or BT or whatever, only two exist XX and XY.

This has been proven without a doubt by science.

Your sexuality is your private business and doesn't concern the rest of us, why do all of us have to revamp all of society just to cater to the proclivities of a few people.

-3 ( +18 / -21 )

Listen: sex is complicated, and it doesn't stop being complicated because you want it to be simple. Other people experience the world differently from how you do. Best to make peace with that fact, because denialism gets tedious.

Nice point. But I would add that sex is not complicated for 96.2% of the Earthlings.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Nothing to get worked up about folks.

If the handful of individuals who want to use their school as their crossdressing playground are barred from doing so, the world won't end.

Let's just leave things as they are.

Why all the hubbub and commotion?

-3 ( +11 / -14 )

Why should the majority have to change to suit the minority?

-3 ( +10 / -13 )

Good conversation, I'm enjoying it.

I know that some people have brought in the LGBT factor here, but aren't they really only talking about the 'T' component of that here? In the US apparently 0.3% of the population is Transgender, so like, 3 kids in 1000. I really applaud the inclusive intent here, but you would think schools could use discretionary powers on a case by case basis to accommodate these people without having to change the whole system? Seems a bit more personalised and easy to do given the numbers in question.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

In recent years XX several girls and women have been banned from participating in the Olympics because their natural testosterone levels are "too high". Sadly this has resulted in some young girls being persuaded by their teams and coaches to have their genitals mutilated in an attempt to lower their testosterone in the hope they will be able to participate in the future.

What I'd like to know about people who think that

"XX people should dress and think like females (XY/males)"

is whether or not they think

"XX people should be able to participate in the Olympics as females"

?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@YuriOtani - This is a discussion forum. BurningBush was not speaking of American Republican platform problems. Your emotional response to his comments were just that - emotional - as in 'not based on facts'. Trump supporting Americans, like me, have a logic that prefers capitalism over socialism - not because it is perfect (it is not) but because it works better than socialism. Human rights are a very important thing, but not easily achieved. All people should be treated with compassion.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

Pacint

Fair enough point.

Strangerland

No, I am not anti freedom. What people are is their business. However I do beleive that at school all should be equal. This is reflected bya uniform uniform

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

A middle-aged bloke used to turn up regularly for years in the local Mr Donuts, resplendent in his girls’ school uniform.

And did he go to work dressed like that? After all, shouldn't his employer change their dress code to accommodate his proclivities?

Why does it hurt to be tolerant and let people, no matter how small numbers we imagine there would be, have a choice?

And if a child wanted to "choose" to walk naked in school, why not allow him? Why force social norms upon him?

-6 ( +12 / -18 )

Why shouldn't they and what difference does it make to you?

Because I think private schools have the right to do as they please, without other people forcing their views and beliefs on them.

Don't like a school's policy? Don't apply.

How about forcing a Buddhist school to put up a statue of Jesus because one of the kids might be Christian.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

I think each school has the right to choose it's own uniform policy. If they choose to allow girls to wear trousers, I think that's fine.

Conversely, if they wish to maintain a boys wear trousers and girls wear skirts policy than they should be allowed to do so.

And if boys are allowed to wear skirts, I can see no justification for barring male teachers from doing so as well. Why deny male teachers the right to express their “identity”?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Schools, especially private ones, are entitled to set their own dress codes and policies without outside interference. Don't like it, don't apply to the school.

And the dress codes apply to teachers as well. A crossdressing teacher can't demand the right to wear a skirt just because he wants to.

Nor can a nudist demand the right to show up to class naked.

Your sexual tendencies are your private business and not to be flouted and forced upon society as a whole.

-8 ( +10 / -18 )

Nothing complicated at all about sex and gender.

There are, and always have been two types, male and female.

Sure there are people with unusual proclivities, crossdressers who want to wear the clothes of the opposite gender, nudists who want to exhibit themselves in front of others, and a whole host of other varieties of confused people.

Those types have always existed in all societies.

But they wisely kept their proclivities to themselves and didn't flout their tendencies on to the vast majority of society that followed standard norms.

I have no problem with what people do in the private time in their private homes.

In public, and at work. There are social rules. You have to wear clothes (sorry nudists), male teachers can't wear miniskirts while teaching kids (sorry crossdressing weirdos).

Btw, I didn't vote for Trump, but that shouldn't matter in this thread.

-8 ( +8 / -16 )

In the meantime, please leave Japans school children alone.

I agree.

Yuri, did you read the article? Currently, boys (XY people) are not allowed to wear skirts in Japan. Therefore, "leave the children alone" would mean sticking with the status quo, thus not allowing a sexual free for all in schools.

"XX people should be able to participate in the Olympics as females"

Perhaps most LGBT activists think that 18 year old boys, who "identify" as girls, have every right to compete in Woman's Wrestling, Ice Hockey, Judo and Weightlifting.

The rest of society realizes that that would be a little unfair.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

I'm advocating the Status Quo, in that schools should not be forced to change their policies to cater to a tiny minority.

The current system, which Japan has used for over a hundred years, of boys wearing pants and girls wearing skirts, is just fine.

Keep Japan as it is.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Since we’re talking freedom, how about giving schools the freedom to set their own uniform policies, especially if they have been doing so for generations. What right does anyone have to tell them to change?

And can anyone tell me my nudists are required to wear clothes in public and in school. If they walk around naked they don’t infringe on anyone else’s rights so why force them to wear clothes that they don’t want to wear?

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

Actually, many schools in Japan already allow girls to wear slacks instead of skirts

No problem with me.

If boys are allowed to wear skirts, than by extension male teachers should be given the same option.

Personally, I find the prospect of a male teacher with makeup, blouse and skirt, somewhat unprofessional and inappropriate.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

I don’t mind what cross dressers and nudists do in their free time.

The issue is whether they can express their proclivities in public, especially in schools.

I say no.

There are endless varieties of sexual ahem, shall we say, deviations, I admit that. But we can’t let each and other one run amok in schools.

Let the schools set their own policies as they see fit.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

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