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Nanjing seeks UNESCO listing for massacre documents

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One of those 'two can play at that game' moments!

The Chiran Peace Museum

Sometimes when there's the word 'peace' in the title of a Japanese museum, I have to wonder. I've been there and you might as well call it the Chiran 'damn, we lost the war and we were victims ourselves but let's not talk about how much pain we inflicted on foreigners' Museum.

7 ( +17 / -10 )

Oh boy, here we go.....

1 ( +8 / -7 )

I honestly hope this goes through and makes it harder for JP right-wing nationalists to deny the massacre.

10 ( +22 / -13 )

Pukey: "One of those 'two can play at that game' moments!"

In a way, yes, but these documents getting UN WHstatus seems pretty valid to me, since keeping and protecting files and documents on the massacre and with comfort women is in the best interests of historians and keeping the records straight. Beautifying soldiers who willingly flew to their deaths and killed others, with many in Japan considering kamikaze heroes, is not quite the same thing.

There can be no doubt China brought this up when they did as a kind of 'response' to Japan trying to register the final letters of kamikaze pilots. But saying that, keep in mind it's the third time China has tried to recognize the documents, which obviously means they tried twice before (and before the kamikaze letters).

2 ( +11 / -9 )

This is far better than the letters of the kamikaze pilots.

4 ( +17 / -13 )

Such things should not be silenced or forgotten. This is horrible reminder for humanity about how bloodthirsty human can be. And let those politics and CEOs be forever cursed for they decided to exchange suffering of thousands of people for few percents of profit!

12 ( +17 / -5 )

According to the Shanghai-based Oriental Morning Post, it is the third time that Nanjing has submitted the documents for inclusion in UNESCO's Memory of the World Register...

Meanwhile, the Chinese government denies committing genocide in Tibet and continues to harbor fugitives charged with genocide.

High Court Judge Ismael Moreno asked Interpol to issue orders for the detention of former President Jiang Zemin, ex-premier Li Peng and three other officials for questioning on charges brought by Tibetan rights groups in Spain.

China submits documents relating to genocide in the past while committing genocide in the present. What sort of lesson are we suppose to glean from all this?

0 ( +13 / -14 )

Meanwhile, some nationalist points out some other irrelevant things to excuse the Japanese war atrocities...

3 ( +16 / -13 )

I wish both sides would stop it already. This is getting so tiring, and the eternal blame game does not help anybody.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Japan, please grow balls and say Sorry!

-3 ( +11 / -14 )

Both the Kamikaze letters as well as the Nanjing documents are historical evidence. Let both countries' governments apply for UNESCO accreditation and let the international community scrutiny the documents.

Most of the positions here are either trying to silence one point of view or set of historical evidence when actually the combination of both gives posterity a better appreciation of the complexities of war.

4 ( +9 / -6 )

Nanjing Seeks UNESCO Listing For Massacre Documents...and so they should. And what's more, UNESCO should list them, along with the thousands of eyewitness Japanese soldiers' accounts of atrocities still left untranslated and discounted in this here country.

However, having been to the Nanjing Memorial site, I can say with confidence that the Chinese Communist Party has definitely applied its own heavily revisionist hand to the historical displays and translations. My favorite is the noticeable absence of mention about any other participant in WWII other than Japan and the "glorious People's Liberation Army, who under the unswerving leadership of Chairman Mao Zedong, brought the Chinese people to a complete victory against the imperialist Japanese aggressors..."

The picture that accompanies this quote, oddly enough, is of the surrender ceremonies ending the War in the Pacific...which of course took place aboard an American ship and led by Americans! (Now how did THAT happen??)

Still, it's not as if it's any worse than the tripe they try to pass off as "history" over there at the Yasukuni Museum!

1 ( +10 / -9 )

Love the move by the Chinese right back in Honest-Abe's face..these documents should definitely be approved in my own opinion.. What really surprises me though as an American is that the US hasn't spoken out against the kamikaze letters.. Which by no means should be approved nothing heroic about suicide bombers!!

2 ( +12 / -10 )

Oh, some serious documents! They dig out tons of them every year yet no one knows what happened there :)

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

Well, I kind of agree with China, again. The documents relating to the Nanjin massacre and the use of comfort women are fit for UNESCO protection, but I don't think the kamikaze letters are. The kamikaze came about at the end of the war when Japan had no more resources to make bombs, so they deliberately ordered men to their deaths. Those that refused were beheaded in front of the rest of the pilots. They are not heroes at all! They are victims of Japan's aggression. Why would Japan want to glorify this act? It's disgusting!

0 ( +10 / -10 )

sure why not? This needs to be documented as well.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

If the Nanjing Massacre application is for a listing, then the Unit 731 atrocities need their own list!

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Yes, both sets of documents (Japan's and China's) should be registered. The Nanking documents should go in because the atrocities caused there need to be remembered. Even if modern Japan is less than enthusiastic about owning up to its past, the rest of the world should make an effort to record such a tragic event.

The kamikaze letters should also go in. But there should be a concerted effort to seize them from those folks who pine for the good old days of the Great Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. I say this because a lot of the young chaps piloting those planes were yanked from university and their lives thrown away in outdated aircraft by a nation state who was willing to throw away 100 million lives in defence of Honshu (thank god they never got the chance). To put it in other way, the kids flying those planes were sacrificed for a morally corrupt, despotic cabal of loonies who systematically raped and pillaged throughout Asia. As such, they were also victims of the war.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Which country's papers will UNESCO accept? The aggressor which is Japan or the aggrieved which is China? Which country has been trying to cover up its war crimes using all kinds of excuses and dirty tactics and which is trying to remind the people around the world of what actually happened that was documented not only by the aggrieved but also by other nationalities who witnessed and recorded the atrocities committed? Based on this and fairness and, without political influence, UNESCO should be able to decide which country's papers to accept and which to reject.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Chiran Peace Museum was established to commemorate the kamikaze pilots' "patriotic efforts for peace". This absurd statement speaks volumes.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

HongoTAFEinmate, History is always being used for propaganda and I'm sure there are propagandistic elements with whatever Nanjing historical evidence is presented, as well.

In this game Japan is not the only propagandistic party. Just include all available documents and let historiographers weigh the all the evidence, both pro and con.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Chinese government obviously incompetent on this and just about every other matter - it's about time the Chinese people rose up and got rid of that ridiculous regime.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

@Disillusioned, the objective of UNESCO accreditation is not necessarily to determine who are real "heroes". If anything, UNESCO accreditation should help posterity have a much more complete understanding of the complexities of war. Obviously, complexity will not mean one-sided, only one version is true and everything else is false.

1 ( +3 / -3 )

The Chiran Peace Museum was established to commemorate the kamikaze pilots' "patriotic efforts for peace". This absurd statement speaks volumes.

They're not even trying to hide the fact that it's for glorifying the kamikaze pilots. Actually, what's scarier is that they're probably not even aware of it and think the world will agree and praise them for it. In their view, Japan is good and did a good thing, protecting Japan from... the evil Western imperialists?

1 ( +8 / -7 )

The documents are written in blood.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If authenticity can be determined beyond a reasonable doubt (ie no commie "fact checkers") then I don't see why these documents shouldn't be included.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

To deny that there were war crimes is wrong and they were committed against Kuomintang, but as it is with all wars atrocities are committed.

Dresden Bombings, Tokyo fire bombings, Blitzkrieg attacks against Poland, Katyn massacre etc etc etc....

For the Communist to claim it as if it were their own troops that were defeated and attacked and killed is at face value disingenuous and a clear sign that they are using propaganda to push their underlying agenda.

Communist China wasn't even a state at the end of WWII and had no legal standing to push this issue other than it's Confucius Institute State Controlled propaganda to promote.

Nanjing/Nanking death tool is still a number held in dispute. Be it 30,000 soldiers and 12,000 civilians by the ever quoted Miner Searle Bates or the overestimated 400,000 overall by the zealot Sun Zhaiwei. The real numbers will never be known until the Communist Chinese Controlled media is allowed to see the real numbers and report it.

Yes, Nanking/Nanjing had a pre 1936 population of 200,000, but after the swarms of people that passed through the area swelled that number. But, really, if an army that hated you was heading your way would you stay there or would you leave?

Propaganda and reality never meet in the middle when one group is trying to get a leg up on another. They will add a whole lot to make themselves out to be the victims. When in fact they were not victims but part of the problem.

Victims never cry out because they are victims.

Want to know the real numbers? Well. that is easy, ask the PRC Central Committee to release those numbers without censorship.. But, sadly they will not. If they did that they would also have to release how many they have killed in the last 60 years and that is a state secret.

So, we are back to the beginning.....what to do?

Easy answer, move on see the past and accept that we as a species need to do a better job....

But really, if you are hoping to make yourself look squeaky clean would you open Pandora's box of reality?

Hell no, you would promote your fantasy in colleges and Universities 24/7......

Anyone ever heard of the Confucius Institute, well if you haven't please do and see what they are up to.

BTW they are sponsored by the ever so Free thinking Central Communist Party of China.

1 ( +8 / -8 )

A good perspective on why China / Japan relations have soured in recent years.

http://tinyurl.com/lnvys9r

1 ( +1 / -1 )

How about Tibetan refugees' letters receiving UN WH status? Or letters from Tiananmen Square or Mao's re-education camps? Japan and China should just stop this juvenile tit-for-tat. It's pathetic gesture politics and serves no one's real interests.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

@Hatsoff, actually, all this attention does serve someone's interest.

The Chinese Communist Party want people to continually talk about how many the Japanese killed in Nanjing so that no one will have any more time and energy to ask about the 45 Million Chinese that Mao Zedong killed during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Alejandro S. ArashiFeb. 15, 2014 - 09:05PM JST JoeBigs you write perfect sense to me. Any other place I can see your writing?

Reality.

Or the future.....

See you there......

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Let's not pull a Hashimoto and say that everyone was wrong so no one is right. Predictably this turns into "China did bad things too! (So that justifies Japanese war atrocities)".

JoeBigs, nice attempt to justify the Nanking massacre to make it seem not as bad. But tell me, why do you only try to justify Japanese atrocities?

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Hope UNESCO will list Nanjing massacre documents along with Chiran pilots letters. Let world know what the war produces.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Eiji TakanoFeb. 15, 2014 - 09:44PM JST Let's not pull a Hashimoto and say that everyone was wrong so no one is right.

I really could not care what he thinks or thought, his beliefs are based on a belief that have nothing to do with what I believe. Why would I concern myself or my beliefs with something I care nothing about?

"Predictably this turns into "China did bad things too! (So that justifies Japanese war atrocities)"."

No, that is silly, Communist China did do bad, so did Imperial Japan and so did Nationalist China the true difference is that Imperial Japan is no more. but Communist China is still around. Nationalist China, well that is no more either.... Man I love their RAM.

So, who is still doing wrong, Imperial Japan or Communist China? The devil that is no more or the devil that is still around?

Logic keeps knocking at your door, but you just wont answer it because....

JoeBigs, nice attempt to justify the Nanking massacre to make it seem not as bad. But tell me, why do you only try to justify Japanese atrocities?

I am not justifying what happened in Nanking, nor do I claim to know. My point is very simple, if the CCP wants folks to know the truth they would not try and keep the story a state secret.

Nanjing/Nanking will only be fully understood when the Communist Party of China wants it to be understood and known. Or when it collapses and the world gets the full story.

But that is some time in the future......Funny, I said the same thing about the Soviet Union back in 86' when a friend in my group asked for my opinion on the subject....I exclaimed back then that I gave the CCCP another 20 years before it fell because of it's corruption, boy was I wrong.

Will Communist China fall anytime soon? If it does, I hope the world is ready for it. Because if the world isn't ready, the world shall fall into darkness.

Can we say three kingdoms part two or is that part 3?!!

Just my silly opinion, but at least my opinion is silly. Or is it??

Maybe in 10 years folks will claim that I was a profit.......Oh wait, did I spell that wrong........You do the math.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

This is important that those documents from Nanjing massacre be successfully registered at UNESCO, in the face of a blitzrieg campaign by Japan to whitewash the entire memory of WWII in the world stages. Japan maybe able to get away with this in Japan, but it's important for the world to let Japan know that their behavior isn't acceptable.

1 ( +9 / -8 )

We don't need the kamikaze pilots letters because we all know that their "patriot efforts for peace" is nonsense.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Both the Kamikaze letters as well as the Nanjing documents are historical evidence. Let both countries' governments apply for UNESCO accreditation and let the international community scrutiny the documents.

Most of the positions here are either trying to silence one point of view or set of historical evidence when actually the combination of both gives posterity a better appreciation of the complexities of war.

Completely agree.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

There's something when we even pretend to think that the kamikaze pilots had anything to do with patriotism or peace.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Yes, both sets of documents (Japan's and China's) should be registered.

Nonsense. Neither of these sets of documents comes close to the standard of such things as the diary of Anne Frank, or the Magna Carta -- although my guess is that many folks posting here don't even know what those two are. Both of these are simply self-serving groups of un-related documents aimed at making political points.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Neither of these sets of documents comes close to the standard of such things as the diary of Anne Frank, or the Magna Carta.

I do see your point jersey, and would that the UNESCO "Memory of the World Registered Heritage" had your exacting standards. Sadly, like anything related to the UN it is just a big exercise in money wasting and political correctness.

For a list of some of the other "stunning" documents either already accepted, or under consideration for the registry, see their website. See things like "Archangel Gospel of 1092", "Archives of Saemaul Undong", and my personal favorite from the first (of nine) page "Babad Diponegoro or Autobiographical Chronicle of Prince Diponegoro (1785-1855). A Javanese nobleman, Indonesian national hero and pan-Islamist".

So yeah, Magna Carta might be setting your sights a bit high here.

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/communication-and-information/flagship-project-activities/memory-of-the-world/register/full-list-of-registered-heritage/registered-heritage-page-1/

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The things listed there are pretty cool. There's no way that those stupid kamikaze pilots letters would ever be accepted to be listed on the world heritage.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Both the Kamikaze letters as well as the Nanjing documents are historical evidence. Let both countries' governments apply for UNESCO accreditation and let the international community scrutiny the documents. Most of the positions here are either trying to silence one point of view or set of historical evidence when actually the combination of both gives posterity a better appreciation of the complexities of war.

I agree. History is history. nankin gyakusatsu, was the words Japanese magazines used to describe that. They did not hide. Eiji: These letters were not stupid. Letters o his familly knowing they will die.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

I hope UNESCO approves the Nanjing massacre documents this time as there is a shame they "rejected" twice without giving valid reasons here.

The Kamikaze pilot suicide letter should be rejected outright as otherwise guess who will come forth, all the Taliban suicide bombers wannabe will all get register.

Nanjing is the incident the world should remember, not the "trigger happy" kamikaze pilots that caused suffering to others. UNESCO please play your just role!!!!

0 ( +4 / -4 )

War sucks.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Japans atrocities during war time should not be forgotten as that is part of history. However to be fair, I think we need to record all the atrocities committed by all the countries in that war, including those down by the United States Britain, Germany, and Italy. Nor should any of the atrocities in the past be forgotten. Too many people have died and suffered during those atrocities and nearly all countries are guilty of atrocities. We can not just write off and forget the victims because the story is so gruesome. So the only way to see the true horror is to record all of them. The evil in history has shaped our world very bit as much as the good has. Time to see how many of the present problems are due to things we would prefer to forget.

4 ( +4 / -1 )

Eiji TakanoFeb. 15, 2014 - 09:44PM JST

Let's not pull a Hashimoto and say that everyone was wrong so no one is right. Predictably this turns into "China did bad things too! (So that justifies Japanese war atrocities)".

No mate, let's not. And while you're at it, why don't you stop being so one-sided too. It's China's refusal to acknowledge its own dark past (and present, as it happens) which makes people puke. Something about hypocrisy or black kettles or...well I'm sure you can work it out. If they were a bit more honest about their own stuff, people might be more tolerant of their lectures.

2 ( +3 / -2 )

PRC should include their Dear Leader Mao for not doing anything, for crime against humanity. Hypocrites while they presently eliminate and commit genocide of the people of Tibet.

The World Supports the rearming of Japan. Mao Tse Tsung killed Millions of their own People compared to the imperial army of Japan. Great Leap of Destruction with his Little red book, even the Russians don't trust Prc.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@hidingout, thanks for looking into documents already accepted as UNESCO "Memory of the World Registered Heritage". It seems like a letdown as I was expecting a higher level of historiography. However, maybe including both sets of evidence (Nanking and Kamikaze) is the way to increase the profile and improve the standards of that list.

@evian1, Letters from the Taliban would hold greater historical significance compared with "Babad Diponegoro or Autobiographical Chronicle of Prince Diponegoro (1785-1855)" so your slippery slope argument does not hold. Also, rather than just hoping that the Nanjing Massacre papers are accepted third time around, a more reasonable person would first ask why were they not accepted twice already.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

There is nothing "peaceful" about the Chiran Museum after I visited there with the wife. I felt disgusted thinking about the unnecessary sacrifice these teenagers made in order to prolong an unwinnable war. Reading the pilot's letters and looking at their personal items was powerful. However, I was extremely disgusted listening to presentations of the so-called "experts" at the museum. These oyaji blowhards like to play the victim card, making presentations about the war with no balance.

I hope to visit the Nanjing Museum someday. I hope that the Chinese don't follow the Japanese in not telling the whole true about the massacre.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@evian1 Unfortanetly that's how it works here in Japan !! Say something negative about Japan and many if not most Japanese will come back with "but so and so person or country did this or that".. Always deflecting blame and using counter attacks that are usually completely of topic..

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

You can assume Chinese strategy is scceccessed by the coments here. How terrible.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Hatsoff

No mate, let's not. And while you're at it, why don't you stop being so one-sided too. It's China's refusal to acknowledge its own dark past (and present, as it happens) which makes people puke. Something about hypocrisy or black kettles or...well I'm sure you can work it out. If they were a bit more honest about their own stuff, people might be more tolerant of their lectures.

I'm sorry, but was anyone, at least on here, denying the Chinese atrocities? No. Get things on a perspective bit, won't you? Frankly I'm sick of the Japanese denials that I have to encounter on a daily basis. It's about justice, not about choosing sides like many East Asians unfortunately tend to do.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

I hope Nanjing succeeds.

Meanwhile, we must rub Japan's war crimes in the faces of Japan's right wing.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

It's interesting China keeps quiet on the international arrest warrant for genocide issued by Spain for Li Peng and Jiang Zeming.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA1911W20140210?irpc=932

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Coming on the heals of the bid to include kamikaze letters, this is pretty funny. Japan just got stomped in the PR department!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Then maybe you should prove it instead of saying that it's a communist lie.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

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