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NZ joins Australia in court against Japanese whaling

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Disillusioned,

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Funny guy! If it is so legitimate why is there five tons of whale meat stock piled in freezers around the country?

Do you think ICJ will rule against Japan on such grounds, in view of international whaling agreement?

I expect ICJ will surely consider the actual whaling law. The whaling law does not say whale meat from the research may not be stock piled in freezers. So your point is not relevant.

I feel you have quite emotional position against the research. We should sit down when result of ICJ is announced, because one of us should be surprised by it. I think it is more likely you, than me. I hope you are brave to admit it, if it is you that has been wrong.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

The whaling industry is bankrupt and only survives will massive gov't grants and for an industry employing less than 1,000 people.

There is no whaling industry. Very little research ever makes a a profit. Research whaling can try and recoup some losses, but overall, considering how few permits are issued, there would not be any way for an industry to make a profit, unless their harvest expands to pre-moritorium levels.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

While fishing continues to enjoy almost universal acceptance as a means of food production, Western urban society has decided unilaterally to shut down whaling with complete disregard for any culture which still practises it. Beset with environmental challenges and yet respectful of cultural differences, the world community has thankfully embraced the principle of sustainable use of a natural resource. We have agreed that the use of renewable natural resources is acceptable provided rates of usage are within the resources' capacity for renewal. Yet the West's cultural imperialists would have whales exempted from the sustainable use principle - an exemption that would, quite simply, place them above and apart from the animal kingdom to which they obviously belong.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It is a cowardly lie to call whjat the Japanese government does in the Southern Ocean Sanctuary scientific research. It is commercial whaling pure and simple and if Japan choses to continue whaling and wants support: giving the finger to the world and harvesting from a designated sanctuary was the wrong approach.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

No one is calling the board of directors of the Japanese Ministry of Fisheries criminals, well I am certainly not.

But to say there is not a seriously organised criminal element involved in the re-sale and distribution of whale in Japan is either very naive or completely ignorant of the well known facts.

"I'm not saying (to their kids) the "embarrassing" "old men" are "professional criminals" (Even though I did just that)...I'm just saying that anyone who doesn't, is either very naive, or completely ignorant."

Yeah, again, you don't a very good handle on how to deal with pride as an obstacle.

The Japanese Ministry of Fisheries are either too stupid or too arrogant to see this. Another classic Japanese "It's all about face" situation.

And a classic Westerner approach of: "Who gives a damn about how their culture reacts to what I tell them to do? They need to just shut up and do it before I dominate them into submission."

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No article VIII is a requirement of IWC and I believe there was also a cluase stating that the by-product must not be wasted. The only way for by-product not to be wasted is to consume the meat. The income in selling the meat is put back into funding the research to lessen the government burden which makes much sense.

The biggest farce is IWC not lifting the ban on commercial whaling even with various scientific evidence that commercial whaling of some speicies is possible without jeprodizing the spiecies as a whole.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@ SamuraiBlueNOV. 25, 2012 - 12:56PM JST zichi

No it is a requirement.

Article VIII. 2 requires that research by-products (meat) be processed and dealt with in accordance with directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted.

The JP government requires to sell the meat to the open market so it is a requirement.

What a farce .... Good to see that they are now having to actively promote the sale of the meat as Japanese consumers simply no longer want it.

IE: Whale meat sales in JP have been declining every year .... even with last years limited catch, they still had to throw away huge amounts of unsold meat.

Its a dying business.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

zichi

No it is a requirement.

Article VIII. 2 requires that research by-products (meat) be processed and dealt with in accordance with directions issued by the Government by which the permit was granted.

The JP government requires to sell the meat to the open market so it is a requirement.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

IWC rules require sale and consumption of meat resulting from scientific catching. So it is sold. That is not proof of dishonesty. It is proof of Japan following the rules, and wilful ignorance of critics in trying to understand why there is a whale restaurant in Shibuya.

People ignore this fact because it makes good propaganda. Which is good for fundraising, but bad for a solution.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

@hassanhvistendahl Your argument is valid in the same way the Japanese whalers are conducting scientific research.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Wrong! Canada Canada quit commercial whaling in 1986 like ALMOST everyone else in the world:

all whaling is commercial. it´s like saying i do not like commercial music not being aware that all music in indeed commercial.

Harvested meat is sold through shops and supermarkets in northern communities where whale meat is a component of the traditional diet While Canada left the IWC in 1982,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling#Canada

Japan, Norway and others agreed to stop hunting whales due to stock estimates, they agreed to ban whaling until it was clear how many whales there were left. In 1993 it was more than obvious that some whales were far from endangered and could be hunted in a sustainable manner according to IWC scientific committee. Yet countries completely ignored this fact while knowingly signing and agreement that siad that they would work in the interest of whaling.

The whole reason behind IWC is to be able to hunt whales. It´s an organization for whaling. How can you be a part of an organization and work against it? If you want to play tennis you join a tennis club because you want to play tennis. If you don´t want to play tennis why join a tennis club? Especially when you sign a document which says I want to play tennis.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Canada did the right thing to stay out of IWC because they are free to hunt any whale they want off their shores.

Wrong! Canada Canada quit commercial whaling in 1986 like ALMOST everyone else in the world: because IWC allowed the Japanese to continue to kill whales Canada quit it because it is an obvious farce though Canadian scientists, biologists and individuals are still vitally involved. Here in Canada our natives are allowed to fish under international and national regulations on the basis of their indigenous rights: Canadian Inuit take one whale every two years from the Hudson Bay and one whale every 13 years from the Baffin Bay-Davis Strait.

Don't compare attempting to kill a thousand whales a year, some of them on the endangered species list, via some cowardly loophole abuse, with our treatment of cetaceans in Canada!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Janes- as you know, IWC rules require sale and consumption of scientific catch. The whole purpose of the IWC is to sustain the whaling businesses.

Yes, there is one restaurant in Shibuya that sells meat sold on scientific catches.

No one in Australia wants to think about why this is. They just point fingers and point out how superior they are.

You don't try to understand the other side, of COURSE they will dig in to spite you.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@ cabadajeNOV. 24, 2012 - 11:18PM JST - If you figured out the problem is pride, trying to "embarrass" the "old men" by calling them "organized criminals.

No one is calling the board of directors of the Japanese Ministry of Fisheries criminals, well I am certainly not.

But to say there is not a seriously organised criminal element involved in the re-sale and distribution of whale in Japan is either very naive or completely ignorant of the well known facts.

In my view, a compromised settlement would be to negotiate a limited AGREED SUSTAINABLE catch based on "Cultural Reasons". This whole continued "RESEARCH BS" is what has caused the issue to flair up in the first place.

This compromise would mean that it actually would come down to scientific research as to what is actually sustainable. What we have at the moment is an argument about the Japanese Ministry of Fisheries simply lying to the world while the world see's right through it. This is what annoys people the most. Do you need to see the restaurants in Shibuya specialising in "Whale Dishes"?

The Japanese Ministry of Fisheries are either too stupid or too arrogant to see this. Another classic Japanese "It's all about face" situation.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

I'm from both those countries, and they are very emotionally invested in beating up Japan over whaling, but they are wrong.

For one thing, it's true that Australians and New Zealanders feel a sense of entitlement and moral rights to exercise sovereignty over the international waters in the Southern Ocean. There is no legal basis for that - just the isolation of those countries and the sense of it being their "back yard", but legally it is baseless, and if a principle of extended sovereign rights over vast areas of international waters like the Southern Oceans, that is going to make any kind of marine activity impossible anywhere, and will exaccerbate territorial issues in more crowded oceans.

The movement to spread the moral value that whaling is wrong, to indigenous arctic peoples, Greenlanders, Icelanders, Scandinavians and Japanese, is a kind of 21st century reenactment of the spread of colonial missionaries in the preceding centuries, hoping to save and enlighten the inferior cultures of the world with Western religion and modernity. While that kind of religious colonialism has been discredited, secular countries take up this cause with the same logic, fervor, and good intentions of missonaries that spread around the Pacific wiping out local cultures a century ago.

This moral drive allows itself to use a lot of weak and emotional arguments to justify the science of its culturally imperialist position. Cries that the scientific whaling is a scam, not really intended to check whale resource levels. They claim it further endangers endangered species. A lot of people in NZ sincerely believe all whales are endangered.

The scientific whaling exception was left because the purpose of the moratorium was not to end the practice of whaling as morally wrong, but to allow whale stocks to recover, and to allow whaling nations to monitor that recovery. Of course it is also used to sustain the industry - and industry, that were it not for the inflammatory cultural imperialism of countries like Australia and NZ, and public support for groups like Sea Shepherd in those countries that make a living off antagonizing countries like Japan, might have actually died out here like it has elsewhere.

But I am glad that NZ and Australia are doing this through the international court process - I don't see how Japan can lose. And I believe it will result in some home truths needing to be stated clearly - Australia does not own the Southern Ocean, and whaling is not a universal moral wrong, just because Australians and Kiwis think it is.

Peace

0 ( +4 / -4 )

cabadaje

I agree IF commercial whaling(with of course strict fishing quotas and regulation) was allowed the JP government will pull out all subsidies which went into whaling and at the end if the industry is not able to make profit they will go out of business.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The two solutions.

And, of course, a third option:

Swallow your own pride, admit the old guard does indeed have the legal right to hunt whales, apologize for ordering them to stop doing it, and then, politely, point out that the industry just doesn't have the public support anymore, and sincerely request a noble departure on their own terms.

If you figured out the problem is pride, trying to "embarrass" the "old men" by calling them "organized criminals" (i.e. yakuza) to their kids is about as far away from a solution to pride as you can get.

I'm not even going to go into the nonsensical strategy of fighting 2 billion yen by donating 20 dollars to the Sea Shepard idiot.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@JanesBlonde

Clearly, I am

.

Now there's your irony!

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@JanesBlonde

Clearly, I am.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@ Stranger_in_a_Strange_LandNOV. 24, 2012 - 06:53PM JST

Clearly you are not sure how or when to use the word "irony".

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I am NOT anti-whaling.

I am...anti blatant lying.

Wow, talk about irony.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@ SamuraiBlueNOV. 24, 2012 - 06:34PM JST

I am NOT anti-whaling.

I am anti organised crime and anti blatant lying.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

JanesBlonde

That goes for the "Anti Whaling" party as well.

Money and Pride.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Two factors at play here. These two things combined are the driving force behind this idiotic "Whaling Research".

1: Money ... sorry that's DIRTY MONEY

2: Pride .... A bunch of "OLD BOYS" with the Mantra "No one tells us want to do".

The two solutions.

1: Fight dirty money with everything you have - ICJ, The Sea Shepard Crews, anything until it becomes "not worth the money". That's the only thing organise crime understands.

2: Educate the younger generations (Who do not actually eat or like whale) that these OLD MEN are an embarrassment to Japan. Also let then know about the health dangers of eating whale and in particular Dolphin meat.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

There are clearly enough minke whales in the southern ocean to support a sustainable harvest. The anti-whalers are extremists one and all, in that for them there is no limit low enough that whales, any species, could be taken, ever. Forever.

Last time I looked at the wiki article for sounthern minke whales it had their population estimate listed at around 500,000 with Japan taking 500-1,000 each year. Seems pretty sustainable to me. Now as I look, the population numbers have disappeared from the wiki article. Just more propaganda war from the extremist anti-whalers.

Japan will win, because the IWC does allow for whaling for scientific purposes. Until the rules are changed, Japan is obviously operating within them. If the anti-whaling extremists had any sense, they would throw Japan a bone and allow a small amount of whales to be taken commercially. The fact that they don't will only result in Japan leaving the IWC as they should have already done.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

One of the main reasons why japan still engages in this outdated practice is to kill off the competition. Whales eat fish so do people and the japanese have done bang up job of depleting the world's fish resources and clearly there is no sign of them stopping so being irresponsible as japan is when it comes to natural resources they kill off the competition. Everyone knows the scientific research thing is bogus but unfortunately it was a loophole that was left open and the japanese are exposing it to the hilt. The japanese have long tried to sell whaling in japan as a japanese cultural thing when it is not. Sure it's cultural for a few fishing/whaling villages along the coastline but as far as it being a national thing that is far from the truth. The extreme majority of japanese don't eat whale simply because it doesn't taste good. If anyone says it tastes good they ought to have their taste buds hauled into the taste bud garage for a massive overhaul. Don't be fooled by any of the noise. The japanese are just killing off the competition which is just yet more irresponsibility on the japanese side. Hmm, and the japanese try to sell themselves as preservers of nature. Ah, japanese hypocrisy has no limits.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Disillusioned: "Let's hope this action will have a positive result. However, I am concerned about Japan's reaction if the outcome is not in their favor."

So long as you're "concerned" and not wondering what would happen. You do of course realize that should any decision be in Japan's favor they would say it was well and just, and victory has triumphed; that it's proof Japan is correct and the rest of the world (save Norway and Iceland and the land-locked African countries Japan pays off to vote in its favor) is wrong. If it does NOT go in Japan's favor it is unjust, unfair, and an example of how the world likes to pick on Japan; it's proof that people are picking on the Japanese tradition of whaling and exerting Imperialism -- errr! that is, an attack on Japanese science... not culture... yeah!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I didn't know JPN was hunting whale and wastes since living away. I am against JPN's whaling for 'environment' reasons...

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Disillusioned

I a talking about the link provided by Wilke in which one of the judges was a Green Peace spokesperson. Any crtical thinker will take it as a kangaroo court whatever they say.

As for legitimacy this is also hard to swallow since when Japan requested the up lift of the ban for commercial whale hunting since the they had substatial evidence of the minke whale population can be sustained IWC rejected based on that there is no scientific research of the minke whale age population to support the population is fertile enough to sustain population thereby Japan started the leathal research in the first place. If you want to talk about loopholes I suggest stop using split hairs arguements to make a case in the first place.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Samurai Blue - Do you even know what a kangaroo court is? It is definitely not lodging a complaint with the international court! Australia and New Zealand have extremely legitimate cases and a truck load of facts to support it. That is not a kangaroo court case!

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Zichi 'why prop up a massive losing industry' ****Japanese pride that's all. They refuse to be told.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Well Australians are running a Kangaroo court....

Ha ha!

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Wilke has made one of the best comments here. I am anti whaling, but my problem with Japan is that they are using this BS research loophole to skirt international law. Virtually NONE of the very few legitimate research papers ever published in relationship to Japanese "research" whaling required killing the whales. Indeed, legitimate marine researchers go to great lengths not to harm or disrupt animals in any way while they gather data. The research clause is crap and should be disallowed.

If Japanese people actually want to eat whale meat, then why not start with the tons and tons of frozen meat that can not be sold due to lack of demand? Then, years from now, when that meat is finally gone and when there is legitimate demand, at least go about the whaling for what it is -- a brutal hunt; not research.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Japan has so much money invested in the IWC in terms of votes bought from impoverished countries it wouldn't make sense for them to leave for any reason but even if they did there wouldn't be any impact in terms of the amount of whales killed as the Japanese gov. disregards the findings, regulations and recomendations of the IWC's scientists anyway. They choose their own quotas, including 50 Fin whales this year which are on the endangered species list ?!, and make their own rules: the manipulation of the scientific research loophole is a perfect example. The problem with the IWC is that they have no way to enforce the rules and regulations they make and no country has been willing to use it's marine authority do so in international waters ... leaving it up to good faith. In the end it seems unlikely that the whaling industry can last many more years. Finacially crippled and relying on tax and relief fund dollars to survive, look for SSCS to deliver the final economical blow to the Japanese whaling industry this year. Icelandic whaling has almost drawn to a close and with a thriving whale watching industry and pulic opinion shifting dramatically toward anti whaling only Norway will be left in terms of commercial whaling: as Japan is Norways maket for whale meat sales the industry will peter out with the Japanese publics decreasing palat for cateceans.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Well Australians are running a Kangaroo court to criticise Japan so neither side are on the moral highgrounds.

Really, so this is somehow about "criticizing Japan" now?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The actual eating of whale I will concede may be somewhat of a culture difference in 2012, given that both NZ and Australia both have used whale meat and blubber in colonial times it would be somewhat arrogant of me or anyone to just suggest its out and out wrong , however my issues are the following;

There seems little evidence that what is currently going on has any scientific value, so continuing under that guise not only puts Japan in a bad light, it shows a lack of international co-opperation, if they want to hunt whale for whale meat make a proposal for legitimate catches, don't hide behind a "loophole".

There is strong evidence that certain species of whale are still very endangered, until those populations are replenished I think there is a strong case for severe restrictions which should be overseen by an International committee.

The southern ocean is not a traditional fishing ground for Japan, if some fishermen would like to travel to the southern ocean in traditional Japanese boats and try to catch whales in a traditional way I wish them luck....

Lastly, humankind has learn huge amounts about the other species we share this planet with over the last few hundred years, there well maybe a case that large brained wild mammals should be mostly left alone if we don't require them as a resource for any other reason than tradition.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Well Australians are running a Kangaroo court to criticise Japan so neither side are on the moral highgrounds.

Really, a green peace spokesperson as judge?

How can you really say with a straight face that it was not biased from the getgo?

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Not to mention supporting whaling from donations given to help disaster victims of 3/11. Completely disgraceful.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

While none of this is being reported in Japan, the financial crisis this whole whaling mission is undergoing is. Would predict this initiative to die out sooner or later for reasons unrelated to international laws, the environment, ethics or cultural values. Should be difficult for any political party to justify continued funding for this while tax is being raised and other unprofitable subsidies are being cut.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Six years ago, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's Catalyst TV programme (http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1657789.htm) had a look at the scientific output of JARPA 1 one year after it ended in 2005.

They found that, of the 6800 whales killed for scientific purposes in JARPA 1, only four scientific papers were produced that were relevant to the stated goals of JARPA 1, and that the same data could easily be obtained through research that is not fatal to whales.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

I do not think ICJ will draw any meaningful conclusion since in effect they will be pushing judgement the effectiveness of another international governing body, the IWC.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

...and argues it has a right to monitor the whales’ impact on its fishing industry.

So they just should whaling on its waters?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Nagoyafrog-what on earth has the White Australia Policy got to do with whaling? FYI Australia used to hunt whales too but ceased in the early 1970's.

The issue is about conservation of marine life and I would say the majority of Australians are against whaling, certainly in the way it is carried out by the Japanese. Our government is merely reflecting the views of the people.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Demonstration today (Sat Nov 24) to protest killing of dolphins and whales: We're going to meet at North side of Miyashita Park (Shibuya), beside the futsal ground "B" at 1:30. March starts at 2.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

They will probably continue to campaign against legitimate scientific research on whales in international waters,

Ha, ha, ha, ha! Funny guy! If it is so legitimate why is there five tons of whale meat stock piled in freezers around the country? Please explain to me why there is a need to kill a thousand whales EVERY YEAR (or attempt to) to support their so-called 'research'? Riddle me that Batman!

As for Japan dropping out of the IWC: If Japan does drop out of the IWC and starts whaling unrestricted it will open the doors for many other countries to start commercial whaling again. Therefore, you comment about eating whales forever is totally moot. Just as your statement about legitimate research is also moot. Japan is not special! They are in no way so special they can continue to BS the rest of the world and hunt whales commercially under a loophole, which they will openly admit. I give Sea Shepherd my twenty dollars every year and have done for nearly a decade. It's money well spent!

4 ( +7 / -3 )

I don't support whaling but it is kind of ironic that Australia is so anti-whaling. In the very early 20th century years, Japan protested against the racist White Australia Policy but to no avail. It was only 40 years ago when this disgusting practice was ended. So why the hell should Japan heed the Aussies now?Whales have rights that Asians do not perhaps?

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Japan kills far more whales than needed for study, sells some whale meat, and still throws most of it away. So why again is the Japanese government subsidizing it beyond the usual corruption? Neither scientific study, nor economics make sense as whale hunting is done now. Perhaps this is another Yakuza business interest.

9 ( +13 / -4 )

@ihope2eatwhalesNov. 24, 2012 - 09:29AM

This is an english language newspaper, so it is read mostly by foreigners who have already seen a bit more of the panet...

Maybe you send commentaries like that to a mahazione for japanese children?

And... honsetly? If your name is true, that you hope to eat whales, then do so with the best wishes of all of us herenad simply do NOT read YuriOtanis story, yes? Thank you.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Disillusioned, I am more concerned that Australia and New Zealand will not accept the outcome which is not in their favour. They will probably continue to campaign against legitimate scientific research on whales in international waters, and the problem may continue because of them, inspite of a clear legal ruling.

For your concern, anti-whalers already say Japan is avoiding restrictions by use of scientific research allowance. This is Australia's case at ICJ. So if Australia were right, then you have nothing to worry about if Japan quits the IWC and continues whaling. Japan's whaling is responsible now (it has to be if we are to use whales forever), there is no reason to think it would not be even without useless IWC.

-15 ( +2 / -17 )

Go for it! My neko came down with cancer from eating whale meat.

Yuri, thanks for the support, but...please don't.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Let's hope this action will have a positive result. However, I am concerned about Japan's reaction if the outcome is not in their favor. I fear if Australia and New Zealand are successful Japan will just quit the IWC and continue their farcicle whale hunt without any restrictions at all.

YuriOtani - that seems to be a somewhat hypocritical statement. If you are against whale hunting why were you feeding it to your cat?

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

Go for it! My neko came down with cancer from eating whale meat. Just think what this is doing to people. It is time this loophole gets closed for good! The killing has no scientific value and no economic value as well.

2 ( +14 / -12 )

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