6 Ospreys fly to Futenma base despite protests

Yuri-san,

An excellent suggestion. Moving the Ospreys and the US Marines to Senkaku is a great idea.

They can have fun taking pot shots at the Chinese and, you never know, maybe start another war or two!

Anyways, isn't there two Ospreys still awaiting parts in Iwakuni? Niiiiiice!

Moving the US Marines to Senkaku is even a better ideal. They can act as a peacekeeping force. Just make a heliport and some barracks and enforce General Order #1 (no drinking). Six months out there will teach them manners. Then when their Ospreys crash it will just be their base or goats. Let the US Marines use them as a base and stop a war.

And NO I wouldnt support him either, because while I may not be against the Osprey's being here in Okinawa I am against Futenma in it's current location.

I see. You are advocating the US plan in its entirety. I suspect that you are not against Futenma for the same reasons as the Okinawans. The new base will ensure that the Marines will remain on Okinawa for another 40 years, the projected lifespan of the base. Two more generations of future Okinawans will know the Marines first hand. Such a gift from someone who does not have to live with the results of your avocation.

Yubaru-san,

Sorry but that would defeat the purpose and mission of the air wing of the MC. One has to understand that to understand why they were sent here in the first place.

That's what I have a problem with.

OK to do this on one's own turf. But this isn't American turf.

It's Okinawa.

Anywhere but here!

Guam would be a GREAT choice!

Sorry but that would defeat the purpose and mission of the air wing of the MC. One has to understand that to understand why they were sent here in the first place.

Yubaru-san,

Amazingly, I totally agree with you!

Move Futenma and the Ospreys will go with them.

Exactly!

Anywhere but here!

Guam would be a GREAT choice!

Whatever you think of Nakaima, he has been steadfast on the promises he made. Your problem is that you don't like the side he is on. If he took your side, to be sure, you would support him.

No he hasn't, and it isn't just regarding the base issues either. And NO I wouldnt support him either, because while I may not be against the Osprey's being here in Okinawa I am against Futenma in it's current location.

The people protesting the deployment of the Osprey's have for quite a few months now quit their protesting about moving Futenma and have focused only on the Osprey's which is a bad move as I see it. They should have stayed with their push to get Futenma moved, by focusing on the Osprey's an issue that no one can really change, the have just pushed the Futenma issue to the back burner.

Move Futenma and the Ospreys will go with them.

Stay on topic please.

No one can say that these planes will never have an accident, but the same is true about JAL and ANA

And for Okinawa, JAL and ANA flights keep landing and departure patterns away from populated areas just in case.

Imagine if one of those crashed in Tokyo during a take-off from Haneda!

Yes..imagine that. It would be terrible. But that's Haneda, this is Okinawa.

And even after a fatal crash of an F18 that killed an entire family, except the father, and burned down a house in a residential neighborhood, they still fly the F18.

Is this relevent? F18 is not an Osprey, The U.S. is not Okinawa.

Yaburu, how many time more flights and hours has ANA and Japan Airlines done? Second part when was their last fatal accident? When was the last Osprey fatal accident? ANA has 937 flights per day and JAL has 900 daily flights, then add hours and passenger load and there is a very big difference. There are oh 110 Ospreys in the total fleet and they do not fly every day. There has been a fatal and an injury crash this year. What people have to understand is how few hours they fly per year.

They have been flying these in San Diego for years w/out an issue.

And even after a fatal crash of an F18 that killed an entire family, except the father, and burned down a house in a residential neighborhood, they still fly the F18.

Also, how many JAL and ANA planes have had issues? Should JAL and ANA be shut-down? Each plan holds at least 100 passengers not to mention all the fuel. Imagine if one of those crashed in Tokyo during a take-off from Haneda!

No one can say that these planes will never have an accident, but the same is true about JAL and ANA - The Plane is not the problem we should be focusing on... No base, no plane ;-)

Nakaima was 100% FOR the base move to Henoko ONLY until he realized that he needed to get more support from the anti-base folks to win the election.

Regardless, he has been faithful to the stance that got him elected. What more could you ask of your representative? That's pretty much the way representative government is supposed to work. And it's supposed to make it difficult for the government to act. Most elected officials these days think they are sent to office to pass a bunch of laws. They would better serve the nation if they spent their time repealing useless and restrictive laws instead of adding to society's burden.

Whatever you think of Nakaima, he has been steadfast on the promises he made. Your problem is that you don't like the side he is on. If he took your side, to be sure, you would support him.

I would like to see ALL US BASES out of Japan.

When that day comes you had better be able to speak Chinese.

plasticmonkey, yes but the USA negotiated with the National government and no thought of the Okinawan people who live by the base was given. Just follow orders from your government. Even the before airfield has some dense population around it. People who have been living there for generations long before the American base.

The United States should be the shining city on the hill and not full of hipcrosity. The American values are not given to others. Elections are a good thing unless it goes against our plans. Then they send in the CIA to do a coup just like when President Diem was brutally assassinated. Same with other countries policies, they are alright as long as it benefits the USA.

So once again the USA demands and the weak spine Japanese national government gives in to threat. After all go the Americans they will be in Okinawa, out of sight out of mind. Today that no longer holds true and if Americans want respect they need to give it first. These 12 aircraft are being tested and not much use to defense. The thing has to make one large target on any radar screen. Also it being "fast" is not fast at all as a Mig 15 can shoot it down with no troubles. How they arrived in Japan tells all. They do not have faith to fly them over the Pacific even though they can be refueled in midair. It would be like the F-15's being sent on a boat instead of being flown or C-130's. Something is still wrong with the Osprey. What is galling is the Americans demand they operate out of a base surrounded by city instead of one with free approach paths.

Yubaru-san,

If the US bases with their Ospreys were in Japan to defend it, whatever that means, Guruku thinks that the Ospreys and some of the bases should be spread evenly throughout Japan.

In other words other regions should help shoulder the burden of hosting US bases and weapons caches.

It sounds logical to me.

But that was Gurukun's opinion.

I understand it, but have a different one. An opinion which you are familiar with.

I would like to see ALL US BASES out of Japan.

There is no earthly reason for them to be here. At least there is no reason for them to be here that benefits this country. In fact they suppress potential economy by taking up space that could be developed as resorts, hotels, shopping centres and so on. Okinawa is a prime area for tourist development. The bases create a dangerous environment, drunks, fighting, rapes, etc., in the areas around the bases and, which is much more dangerous in the larger area of Okinawa by drawing the fire of any aggressor.

There was a plan to relocate them to Guam. This would make sense. It's US territory, isn't it?

Japan isn't US territory.

Okinawa very definitely isn't.

And Okinawa's spirit of cooperation is rapidly disappearing with the Osprey issue.

They feel that Washington has no regard for their lives by deploying aircraft with a poor safety record in a highly built up area. These aircraft could be based in Kadena, as YuriOtani suggests, and would present much less of a danger. Kadena could easily accommodate them. The area of Kadena base is DOUBLE the size of NARITA airport - the largest commercial airport in Japan.

But the problem will continue until there are NO BASES in Okinawa.

That's what's needed and wanted.

Yubaru, the people of Okinawa will continue to protest and there is NOTHING that an be done to stop it. Unlike the 60,s there is no way the MP's can break up a peaceful protest and claim they acted in self defense. What bothers me is the excuses and justifications some are valid. Still do not know why Okinawa. They should be tested in Hawaii or Guam first before a foreign country. Also this really is a test of how they operate in tropical conditions. They will have to pass over dense populations to enter and exit MCAS Futenma. They should be based at Kadena and fly over route 58 and out to the ocean. Again and again it is the arrogance of the USA that gets it in trouble, should be called Big Brother instead of Uncle Sam.

Logically you would think so, wouldn't you?

But imagine the furor if they tried to put them in any other part of Japan!

NO ONE wants them!

No it is TOTALLY illogical. Anyone who thinks the way you do here Bertie is TOTALLY unaware of the mission of the MC and the Ospreys. You only think of them as "airplanes", they are not, they work in conjunction with the ground based Marines and the mission of the Air Wing of the MC is to support the ground troops.

Basing the Osprey's away from their ground troops 100% defeats their purpose and mission. The ONLY reason they were first sent to Iwakuni is because of the concerns regarding safety issues that the Japanese Gov had. Note key word is HAD.

Try to learn about what you are commenting about first please!

Yuri

What Americans do not understand the deployment is being forced upon Okinawa.

I think informed Americans understand that. At the same time most of them understand why that is, historically, politically, and strategically. Okinawa is caught between forces that are bigger than itself-- everybody knows that. There was a long negotiation on the relocation of Futenma, which was essentially trashed by Ozawa/Hatoyama and Nakaima, who wanted to push the envelope for their own political gain. If it wasn't the dugongs, then it was the Osprey.

Nakaima has manipulated this situation to his advantage in the same way Ishihara manipulates the Senkaku issue. Both of them get popular support for their gut-level populism, but they both look like idiots on the world stage. This is foreign policy, and should not be left in the hands of children.

Remember, we're talking about deployment of the Osprey, which is a manufactured issue. Nobody really believes it's a safety hazard, including the bozos pumping their fists in the air shouting 'hantai' to everything.

Gurukun-san,

So when is it time for Japan to acknowlege its responsibilities for Okinawa being part of Japan? Okinawa is part of Japan....shouldn't the Osprey and some of the bases be spread across Mainland Japan evenly?

Logically you would think so, wouldn't you?

But imagine the furor if they tried to put them in any other part of Japan!

NO ONE wants them!

Judging by the election results that put Nakaima in office, you and the many others you cite are in the minority.

You have to understand Okinawan politics to understand as well that what you wrote here makes no difference what so ever. Nakaima is a chameleon and NEEDS to be put out to pasture.

The option to Nakaima was the former Mayor of Ginowan, which shows as well that you dont know what's going on here in Okinawa if you think the election results are purely based upon which side of the issue Nakaima takes.

Or is demagoguery your only weapon?

It's a great weapon if you stop and think about the FACT that's it's true. Nakaima was 100% FOR the base move to Henoko ONLY until he realized that he needed to get more support from the anti-base folks to win the election. His opponent would never had won the election either way and was a ONE issue candidate.

Your Gov is in Oklahoma, MY Gov is Nakaima and in a manner of speaking he is terrorizing the people of Okinawa by repeatedly refusing to acknowledge Okinawa's responsibilities in being a part of Japan. I and many others have to live with his fear-mongering, you don't.

Judging by the election results that put Nakaima in office, you and the many others you cite are in the minority. Based on that, it appears that Nakaima is fulfilling his responsibility to represent the electorate. As we have seen by US reaction to Middle East revolts, one man's terrorist is another man's patriot, depending on where one stands on the issue.

So far on this thread, Nakaima has been compared to Yassir Arafat and called a terrorist by US advocates. Is that really how you want to argue the issue? Is that likely to sway Okinawans to your point of view? Or is demagoguery your only weapon?

... by repeatedly refusing to acknowledge Okinawa's responsibilities in being a part of Japan.

So when is it time for Japan to acknowlege its responsibilities for Okinawa being part of Japan? Okinawa is part of Japan....shouldn't the Osprey and some of the bases be spread across Mainland Japan evenly?

Guru29, gee thanks well my husband says I look beautiful. Saying the American occupation was better than the Japanese is not saying much. The had really complete control over every aspect of Okinawa life. Next time I am home will be sure to give MP cars the finger.

What Americans do not understand the deployment is being forced upon Okinawa. They bully the central government to take them and expect our quiet obedient consent. The Americans did not need to do this it is their way to show they are boss.

Oh add a 2 to 3 year stay in a concentration camp for the older people. Lastly please to not compare our Governor to a terrorist.

Yuri, please don't include youself in calling Nakaima YOUR governor. Your Gov is in Oklahoma, MY Gov is Nakaima and in a manner of speaking he is terrorizing the people of Okinawa by repeatedly refusing to acknowledge Okinawa's responsibilities in being a part of Japan. I and many others have to live with his fear-mongering, you don't.

Robert DykesOCT. 02, 2012 - 01:18AM JST Just FYI the Boeing 737 is the most accident prone aircaft in the world right now. Their are thousands of helicopters and airplanes in Japan, all of which have had a model that has crashed at some point in time. think about it.

yeah, you think about it.. they don't fly "LOW" over residential areas and over elementary schoolS.

Okinawa people look with hatred at the Ospreys which now help to focus it all for them. Ospreys are a symbol of the frustration felt by people living in confined spaces underneath thunderous engine noises day in, day out. Who will listen to their voice, and who will share their sacrifice? Who can properly express their disillusion with the Tokyo government? Have they been conveniently forgotten? Is Okinawa just a remote dumping ground? When will a solution be found, and why do only they have to carry the whole burden of the military presence forever and forever?

There are many people in the world who look at the Osprey with love in their eyes, an ingenious machine to fulfill a new fighting role.

But not everyone sees them that way.

Okinawa has a pair, it wants the US military gone but no one listens, it only gets 4% of its income from the bases

Actually the number is closer to 10%, and taking into consideration how closely the bases are grouped together in the center of the island the communities that host those bases have a much higher percentage of their income based on what they get in revenues thanks to the bases.

That also does not include what the national government gives in direct funding to those communities.

If one takes that into consideration as well if and when those bases left those communites would be hit EXTREMELY hard and also would be hard pressed to get any income even close to cover what they lost and not to mention the couontless numbers of people that would lose jobs from direct or indirect compensation, or income derived from landholdings.

Yubaru are they blocking the gates? Which bases? What are the Japanese Police doing about it? Lastly the people of Ginowan did not want to lay their burden on their fellow Okinawa people.

It's only Futenma and the police are keeping the protesters in line but not doing much else.

YuriOtani, I didn't know you are that old. But I will say the Americans had treated the Okinawans much better than their former master, the Japanese.

So America does rule Okinawa. Someone probably should have made that public and bypassed Tokyo's sham involvement, including taxpayer funded hosting fees. One learns the most interesting things when listening to America's points of view.

let's be honest here. Japanese power plants have proven themselves to be the most dangerous in the world except for the Belarus ones.

Support that statement.

There is an emotional element, those of us who lived during the opressive US occupation have certain issues with the Americans on Okinawa.

YuriOtani, I didn't know you are that old. But I will say the Americans had treated the Okinawans much better than their former master, the Japanese.

For example, the Americans did not do to the Okinawans what the Japanese did to them such as these:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/world/asia/07okinawa.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

"There have been 150 737 hull-losses, including 4 hijackings/bombings and 7 ground accidents. This may sound high but remember that over 7000 737's have been built since 1967. This gives a 2.3% accident rate or approx 3 per year or one every 2.5 million flight hours. Furthermore, over 40% of occupants survive fatal 737 accidents."

http://www.b737.org.uk/accident_reports.htm

So lets see how many accident has the Osprey 2.85 per 100,000 hours. Tell me again how unsafe Boeing 737. The Osprey accident rate is 71 times that of the 737. You need to stop getting your news from Fox, AFN and Stars and Stripes.

I wouldn't want to live next to an airport of any type and I don't look for apartments near rail lines. It's the low rent district with all the noise alone, let alone the chance of something dropping on you. I'm not so sure the Osprey is any more dangerous than other military aircraft. But on Okinawa anything about the bases is bound to be protested. Just seems to come with the territory. I would point out that there were no riots.

You should be more worried about another earthquake cracking open a Chinese or Indian nuclear power plant

Or a Japanese power plant - let's be honest here. Japanese power plants have proven themselves to be the most dangerous in the world except for the Belarus ones. Let's not claim the Chinese and INdian ones are that bad - the Japanese plants are just awful and deadly dangerous.

Just FYI the Boeing 737 is the most accident prone aircaft in the world right now. Their are thousands of helicopters and airplanes in Japan, all of which have had a model that has crashed at some point in time. think about it. You should be more worried about another earthquake cracking open a Chinese or Indian nuclear power plant, a meteor hitting you on the head, or a car running a red light and hitting you while you are crossing the street.

Yubaru are they blocking the gates? Which bases? What are the Japanese Police doing about it? Lastly the people of Ginowan did not want to lay their burden on their fellow Okinawa people.

USNinJapan, The Governor of Okinawa represents the people of Okinawa not mainland Japan or America. If there was a binding vote today am sure the vast majority would vote to get rid of ALL American bases on Okinawa. So these aircraft represent the Japanese and American people pushing their will and interfering with our Prefecture. Oh also not fair since there are so many Okinawa only laws. There is an emotional element, those of us who lived during the opressive US occupation have certain issues with the Americans on Okinawa. You have no ideal what it does to people when the foreign military live so much better than the locals. Oh add a 2 to 3 year stay in a concentration camp for the older people. Lastly please to not compare our Governor to a terrorist.

So when you appeal on strategic grounds, jobs, blah blah, you are missing the point. Everything I wrote has to do with the opposition to the deployment of the Osprey to Okinawa.

Want to remind you that Osprey was sent to Okinawa for a purpose of deterrant against NK and China.

I must have missed the pictures of the Osprey flying over the Senkakus. And, shouldn't those Ospreys designed to protect against North Korea be better positioned in South Korea? I though the Marines were front line.

It's not short, but anyone interested in the Osprey/Okinawa problem should read this:

http://www.japanfocus.org/events/view/158

Want to remind you that Osprey was sent to Okinawa for a purpose of deterrant against NK and China. If you do not like it being there, then Japanese needs to abolish the US/Japan Security Accord and amend the article 9th of Japanese Constitution to defend yourself. Simple.

You are spot on. Nakaima is the Okinawan Arafat that does little more than perpetuate the problem.

Interesting....the US government gave billions to Arafat in support. Perhaps they wanted him to continue to perpetuate the problem in the ME, most likely to enhance US interests in the area. Of course, Nakaima is rightly more concerned about the interests of the Okinawans who elected him but, since this puts him at odds with the US, he IS the problem. George W. Bush puts America's foreign policy in the proper context, "You're either with us, or you're against us." Self determination for people who are unlucky enough to fall within the influence of US interests would seem to be viewed in the latter category.

plasticmonkey

And the media's symbiotic other, Governor Nakaima. Backed by an LDP that doesn't give a rats about the people of Okinawa other than votes that might come its way via central government handouts for public works projects. Nakaima is a man who publicly dismisses any substantive and incremental solutions to the base issue, a man who naysays in order to build political clout with the anti-base crowd.

You are spot on. Nakaima is the Okinawan Arafat that does little more than perpetuate the problem.

Justin-san,

Thank you for a voice of sanity:

Okinawa has a pair, it wants the US military gone but no one listens, it only gets 4% of its income from the bases (but yet they use 20% of the land area on the island). Unless Okinawa becomes its own country it will continue to be under American and Japanese thumbs. If Japan wants to be defended by Americans, it should step up and host the bases where nipponjin live, rather than hosting the bases in territories where the Americans are unwanted.

If Okinawa truly wanted to get rid of the US military it would grow a pair and wean itself from its dependency on (and antipathy toward) the central government and its American overlords. The current direction of this protest movement is pathetic.

Okinawa has a pair, it wants the US military gone but no one listens, it only gets 4% of its income from the bases (but yet they use 20% of the land area on the island). Unless Okinawa becomes its own country it will continue to be under American and Japanese thumbs. If Japan wants to be defended by Americans, it should step up and host the bases where nipponjin live, rather than hosting the bases in territories where the Americans are unwanted.

flew safely from Iwakuni

Amazing how the J-media has has helped to blow this 'safety' issue out of proportion. What with those whacky tilting rotors they make for visually titillating news. And boost ratings. Pretending to care.

And the media's symbiotic other, Governor Nakaima. Backed by an LDP that doesn't give a rats about the people of Okinawa other than votes that might come its way via central government handouts for public works projects. Nakaima is a man who publicly dismisses any substantive and incremental solutions to the base issue, a man who naysays in order to build political clout with the anti-base crowd. Hatoyama (on orders of master Ozawa) tried to crash that party and failed.

The dugong and the Osprey are both creatures woven into the mythology that is Okinawan politics. It's a tiring tale, told as to drone on indefinitely.

If Okinawa truly wanted to get rid of the US military it would grow a pair and wean itself from its dependency on (and antipathy toward) the central government and its American overlords. The current direction of this protest movement is pathetic.

Gov Nakaima said it's ridiculous that the "dangerous" Ospreys are deployed in such a populated area. Well, they could have been deployed at Heneko instead of Futenma if that deal had gone through as originally proposed.

Watch them land was so neat to see them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4YLmZZPA4s&feature=share

Why would Okinawans trust anything coming from the US? Or Tokyo for that matter?

In reality it doesn't matter. Tokyo can't trust Okinawan politicians either so I guess it goes both ways.

Beer makes everything better. See you in the next article.

cabadaje

Good debate. It would have been better over a beer. Thanks for keeping it civil. Until next time.

cabadaje Oct. 01, 2012 - 06:49PM JST

I was addressing two separate issues you brought up, the somewhat shaky Osprey safety record and the idea that only two pilot errors makes that a relative non-issue (how many does it take before people should be concerned?). Sorry that is was so confusing to you.

The fact is, pilot error was spread all over the news in Japan in order to make the vehicle seem safe mechanically. To downplay that is a deception.

So you are saying that the US spread the news all over Japan that pilot error was the cause of the Osprey reputation...and yet all of your posted sources are not actually about that...

I guess deception is about perspective.

How much does it cost per piece ? Why the US kept hard selling it to Japan ? ( deployment at the end of the day is paid by taxpayers )

Yubaru Oct. 01, 2012 - 05:58PM JST

U.S. padded cost, personnel for relocating Marines to Guam: WikiLeakshttp://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20110506a4.html

The United States has padded the expense for the planned relocation of Marine troops to Guam from Okinawa and the number of personnel affected, in an attempt to make Japan's financial burden ratio outwardly smaller, according to U.S. cables posted Wednesday on the whistleblower website WikiLeaks.

A diplomatic cable dated in December 2008, sent by the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo to the State Department, showed that $1 billion was included as road construction costs in the relocation expenses during the Japan-U.S. negotiations in April 2006.

..........

Prior to the deal, the two countries had intensified negotiations over the ratio of financial burden on the Marine relocation to Guam. The U.S. side is believed to have doctored the figure so that Tokyo would accept the deal easily.

As a result, the total relocation expense inflated by $1 billion to $10.2, and the ratio of Japan's burden fell below 60 percent, at least on the surface.

The United States has said about 8,000 Marine troops and 9,000 dependents are expected to be transferred to Guam from the Japanese island prefecture in a realignment plan.

But the cable said that "both the 8,000 and the 9,000 numbers were deliberately maximized to optimize political value in Japan."

"The two sides knew that these numbers differed significantly from actual Marines and dependents assigned to units in Okinawa," it added.

Why would Okinawans trust anything coming from the US? Or Tokyo for that matter?

cabadaje Oct. 01, 2012 - 05:56PM JST

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/18/us/8-marine-officers-are-charged-in-osprey-false-records-case.html?src=pm

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/06/v-22-commander-fired/

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/10/osprey-down/all/1

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/06/27/60minutes/main210157.shtml

The district of Republican Congressman Curt Weldon of Pennsylvania includes Ridley Township, where the Boeing company builds the Osprey's fuselage. He has flown on the Osprey nd maintains the aircraft, which brings 1,500 jobs to his district, is safe.

"We're pushing the envelope of technology," Weldon said. "When you push the envelope, there is risk associated that you have to attempt to deal with. Now, would we like to eliminate that totally? Absolutely. But, I am convinced that this aircraft does not have a technology problem."

Perhaps the military doesn't have the best record for stating the truth about the Osprey's record, what with political and commercial pressure to mass-produce it and get it into service. The fact is, pilot error was spread all over the news in Japan in order to make the vehicle seem safe mechanically. To downplay that is a deception. That risk everyone talks about should not have to be shared by the people in Okinawa.

That's a fallacy of false choices, extortion writ large. You can have your Futenma land back in exchange for another area when the Okinawans would like to reduce the size of the footprint altogether. Both governments have lied to the Japanese people about the size of the troop reduction, the cost of moving troops to Guam, the cost of building the Henoko base (mostly paid for by the Japanese) from the beginning. The US has lost honor among a great many people.

I do believe that you are unaware of the history behind the suggestion of Henoko. The US Military had originally planned way back in 67' or 68' to move Futenma to Henoko but the landfill project and move got scrapped because of funding problems.

You also are obviously unaware that the US military agreed to move something in the neighborhood of 10,000 Marines out of Okinawa if the local Governor would have agreed to the heliport at Henoko. The "footprint" would have been DRASTICALLY reduced.

The problem is the "local" government can't decide what it wants. It wants the national government's money to support the poorest prefecture in Japan but does not want any responsibility as a part of the country to play it's part in it's defense.

Oh, really?

Yes, really. Your overall comment that the US claims Osprey accidents are due to pilot error and not mechanical failure is incorrect Only two of the accidents have been traced to pilot error.

Here are two different internet sources, one from the US Armed Forces.

Thank you for supporting one of the two pilot errors I pointed out in my response.

So, would you like to retract your "wasn't due to pilot error" defense?

No, I would not. Incidentally, even assuming that you were correct, it would be you who was implying it wasn't due to pilot error, but rather mechanical failure.

You can't have it both ways...either the plane is not safe or it is too difficult to fly (and believe me, US military pilots are the best int he world.

Or you could actually read the article you posted and see "The Osprey — despite its troubled past to include production delays and crashed test flights – has proven effective since joining the Air Force and Marine Corps’ operational fleets. Marine leaders have often said it’s one of the safest aircraft in the Corps."

Both ways? What two ways are there? The Osprey is difficult to fly (and I agree about the pilots), mostly because the pilot needs experience in both fixed wing and rotor crafts. The plane also has the best safety record among all the rotor craft in the Marine arsenal, including the Seaknight, so apparently the pilots aren't having that much trouble with it.

For them to have problems means the plane is dangerous)

All aircraft are dangerous. The Osprey is less dangerous than the others. It's really a simple matter of numbers. Of the 8 accidents the Osprey has suffered, four of them were during testing, where one would expect accidents to happen to the very first tilt-rotor craft in existence. In actual combat, only one Osprey has ever been lost. And the two Osprey accidents, in Florida and the one in Morocco, are the only pilot error accidents. The Florida crash was a high speed landing that flipped the plane completely upside down, and yet 16 of the 20 aboard walked out. The Morocco crash killed two of the seven aboard. Unfortunately, the two crew chiefs had not been seated at the time, but rather tethered at the back (not uncommon, but they may well have survived if they had been strapped in, like the others). It is suspected that the pilot did not follow the procedure when transferring the tilt-rotor, and the plane stalled out due to a helicopter effect. (unfortunately, while the actual chances of an accident occurring to an Osprey is lower, the chances of recovery for those accidents is lower as well).

Simply put, since 2001, the Osprey has had two accidents, both attribute to pilot error. The Seaknight, to offer a comparison, has had 6 crashes since 2001.

The USS Bonhomme Richard (LHD-6) and the rest of CTF-76's amphibious readiness group will now get upgraded to Ospreys. Finally.

Akemi Mokoto

I guess we will have to wait for one of these things to crash land in a populated location...

Hope you're not holding your breath...

Serrano Oct. 01, 2012 - 03:21PM JST

Would that be the same one that would also have been saved just as easily by a Huey?

She needs to get with her government and ask them then why they didn't allow the base to be moved to Henoko, which in the long run is safer for everyone involved and could have been pretty much accomplished by now.

That's a fallacy of false choices, extortion writ large. You can have your Futenma land back in exchange for another area when the Okinawans would like to reduce the size of the footprint altogether. Both governments have lied to the Japanese people about the size of the troop reduction, the cost of moving troops to Guam, the cost of building the Henoko base (mostly paid for by the Japanese) from the beginning. The US has lost honor among a great many people.

however, she doesnn't understand why both governments would let these accident prone things fly over schools, and popolated areas. She told me that if one of those Osprey crashes, she wouldn't doesnt care if she died...but she cant bare to imagine her three baby kids dying due to an accident.

She needs to get with her government and ask them then why they didn't allow the base to be moved to Henoko, which in the long run is safer for everyone involved and could have been pretty much accomplished by now.

And no one please try to say that it's because of the dugong, no one cared one tiny bit about them, or even had any idea they were in the area until the, close to ancient by todays standards, proposed move was made.

cabadaje Oct. 01, 2012 - 02:35PM JST

Of course, the US claims that the downed Osprey were the result of pilot error and not mechanical failure.

The US claims no such thing. The record of the Osprey is available from several different sources on the internet. Only two crashes have been due to pilot error. Four were due to mechanical failure (the hydraulic system made the engines stall) and one is suspected that the steering and balance system failed (most systems which used to be hydraulic have been replaced with fly-by-wire technology).

Oh, really?

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/08/20/osprey-crash-blamed-on-co-pilot/

Marine Corps leaders announced Friday the April 2012 deadly crash of a MV-22 Osprey in Morocco was caused by pilot error.

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/okinawa/crew-blamed-for-air-force-osprey-crash-in-florida-1.187564

An Air Force investigation has blamed crew error for a recent Osprey crash in Florida.

Here are two different internet sources, one from the US Armed Forces. So, would you like to retract your "wasn't due to pilot error" defense? That's what was told to Okinawa as well. You can't have it both ways...either the plane is not safe or it is too difficult to fly (and believe me, US military pilots are the best int he world. For them to have problems means the plane is dangerous)

"All told, 12 of the MV-22 Osprey aircraft will be stationed at Futenma, which is surrounded by residential areas."

Why on earth is a US base surrounded by residential housing/buildings? Oh wait, that's right, they DEPEND on the bases they object to! The irony is of course if they were not so abject to the base being moved to another part of Okinawa the Ospreys would be out of their hair.

I hope the pilots were courteous enough to wave when they flew by... maybe drop some food to remind Grandpa why he built his house there, etc.

I can't wait until the first Japanese person's life is saved by an Osprey flight.

As long as Article 9 exists in Japans Constitution issues like this will continue to fester.

The moment Article 9 is cast out and Japan starts to build up it's forces then and only then will issues like this go away.

Article 9 was there for a while, but enough time has passed and it is time for it to be done away with.

Japan needs the ability to defend itself and it's people against it's aggressive and sometime violent neighbors.

Without a proper military to stem the tide of hate coming from it's neighbors Japan will always need the US to save it.

As the says goes, Might makes Right.

One woman that I spoke to said that she understands that the military needs to be here...however, she doesnn't understand why both governments would let these accident prone things fly over schools, and popolated areas.

That's what happens when people parrot other people instead of doing their own research. They end up scaring themselves.

People are simply too easily placated.

And too easily riled up.

I guess we will have to wait for one of these things to crash land in a populated location for the Japanese government to pull their head out of America's ass and keep these crash-prone airships away from Okinawa and any other populated part of Japan.

You'll be waiting for a while. The Osprey has the best safety record of all Marine rotor craft.

Of course, the US claims that the downed Osprey were the result of pilot error and not mechanical failure.

The US claims no such thing. The record of the Osprey is available from several different sources on the internet. Only two crashes have been due to pilot error. Four were due to mechanical failure (the hydraulic system made the engines stall) and one is suspected that the steering and balance system failed (most systems which used to be hydraulic have been replaced with fly-by-wire technology).

Please do not turn this thread into a pro/anti base one. From the people I spoke to at the gates, there are both people that take both stances. The only thing these poeple are protesting is the safety of the Ospreys. One woman that I spoke to said that she understands that the military needs to be here...however, she doesnn't understand why both governments would let these accident prone things fly over schools, and popolated areas. She told me that if one of those Osprey crashes, she wouldn't doesnt care if she died...but she cant bare to imagine her three baby kids dying due to an accident.

The protests will continue.

The Osprey is not a safe aircraft for a built up area like Ginowan:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/NG10Dh01.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/NF12Dh01.html

This goes out to all those doubters out here that have said that there haven't been any protests. There have more and more people everyday that are blocking the main gate at Futenma, even people parking their cars blocking the gates and people laying underneath the cars stopping any vehicle or personel from moving in and out of the base.

Hopefully they will stay at the pushing and shoving stages and not have it escalate into something more violent.

Akemi Mokoto Oct. 01, 2012 - 01:52PM JST

The sad irony is that Osprey flights are pilot training missions. Of course, the US claims that the downed Osprey were the result of pilot error and not mechanical failure. With such a hard to fly aircraft, one would hope that only fully trained pilots would fly these aircraft over a foreign, highly populated host nation.

Beware of student drivers.

I guess we will have to wait for one of these things to crash land in a populated location for the Japanese government to pull their head out of America's ass and keep these crash-prone airships away from Okinawa and any other populated part of Japan. Listen to the people. KEEP THESE THINGS ON THE GROUND!

Whether one is for or against the deployment, this is not a surprise.

Exactly. The fix was in as soon as the US made the decision. There was never any doubt. The rest was merely a dog and pony show for the hoi polloi.

Whether one is for or against the deployment, this is not a surprise.