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New fission suspected at Fukushima nuclear plant

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"...the detection of the gas was not believed to indicate a major problem. "

That's certainly true. Detection is no problem. Fission might possibly be a problem, though.

7 ( +9 / -1 )

And where does the gas go ? Out into the atmosphere ?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

It's been all quiet on the Dai Ichi front. I am still hoping that that was a good sign that things are progressing to a place of safety!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Xenon is created when there is nuclear fission. The gas management system has been operating since October 28 in Reactor 2 to suck out the gas from the Containment Vessel and filter out radioactive materials. TEPCO has been analyzing the gas to identify the nuclides and density. The analysis done on November 1 found xenon-133 and xenon-135, which are created when uranium-235 undergoes nuclear fission.

Xenon-133's half life is 5 days. TEPCO says it could not rule out the possibility of nuclear chain reaction happening again, so the company poured water with boric acid into the reactor to suppress the nuclear chain reaction for one hour starting 3AM

4 ( +5 / -1 )

radioactive gas associated with fission = criticality or re-criticality, makes the cold shutdown of damaged nuclear reactors a far flung dream

3 ( +7 / -3 )

Time to revise the decommission time frame again?

7 ( +9 / -1 )

This new problem is in #2. There are still hot fuel rods lying around in the rubble of #3, according to zichi's infra red shots. I wonder what quantities they have now detected and whether this gas could be drifting through from next door?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The gas was detected from inside No2 reactor containment vessel. When there was the fuel rod meltdowns its possible part of the rods survived.They are about 12 feet in length.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Well, at least it's not Radon, which decays by alpha emission. Xenon 133 decays by beta emission, which is much less damaging internally.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

cold shutdown right? hahahhaha

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Not believed to indicate a major problem. Ha! Just like there was little possibility of meltdown, little chance that radiation would travel very far. Yes. We all believe you TEPCO.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Very much NOT unexpected, has from the beginning very much been a possibilty and here it is. One of the Corium masses is in a state of fission. Stay safe workers. Keep an eye on it everyone.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The injection points of boric acid must be indicative of where TEPCO thinks the melted fuel is located - a stab in the dark or they know more than what they're reporting. TEPCO reports are really far from enlightening and pose more questions rather than easing the public's minds!!

6 ( +7 / -1 )

The injection points of boric acid must be indicative of where TEPCO thinks the melted fuel is located - a stab in the dark or they know more than what they're reporting.

The article is a translation of the report and it's not a very detailed article - I imagine there is a lot more known and it's probably reported, just not here.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

No surprise. Although the heavy unwritten implication by authorities and many regular folk is non-criticality. This is evidence to the contrary. There is still melting going on.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The majority of Japanese no longer seem to support atomic power. People living near atomic power plants, like the one at Tokai, are calling for their shut down even if it means they'll lose their jobs since most work at the plant.

It will take between 30 and 70 years for the disaster to be ended and that does not take into account the 10,000+ years needed for the storage of atomic waste.

The final cost will probably be ¥1 trillion to ¥1.5 trillion for every year it goes on.

Thats's between ¥30 trillion to over ¥100 trillion if it does take 70 years, which was a figure put out by TEPCO.

Now much renewable energy technology could be developed for ¥30 trillion?

12 ( +12 / -0 )

Umm, what's the last sentence suppose to say? "This poses no health risk......."

8 ( +9 / -1 )

The final cost will probably be ¥1 trillion to ¥1.5 trillion for every year it goes on.... Now much renewable energy technology could be developed for ¥30 trillion?

Comment of the day. There really needs to be a (for lack of a more appropriate phrase) a Manhattan Project for renewable energy. Deep pockets, the best minds, all working on nothing but finding clean, renewable, usable energy solutions. Someone needs to take the lead.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

"...said the detection of the gas was not believed to indicate a major problem."

Yeah, clearly no problems whatsoever.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

"radioactive Xenon, which could be the byproduct of unexpected nuclear fission." And if it isn't the byproduct of unexpected nuclear fission, what is it? Did the Romulans squirt it in there when we weren't looking?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@Paw: The technology is already here, has been for over half a centyury, Thorium reactors. Other kinds of reactors too, using much safer, for example, coolants and reactions that shut down safely, they are buildable,but the thing is at the time, the governments who used nuclear power wanted bombs. They used uranium so they'd get The Bomb. India is buidling a thorium reactor, should be online within a decade. Much safer. Nuclear reactors as hey are are like the poor VHS pipping the better quality Beta Max because one was already established. Plenty of safer reactors could be built, yesterday.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@YongYang,

While Thorium reactors are certainly attractive in many ways. I think the point zichi and pawatan was trying to make was to develop something renewable. Not another technology that can still be misused (although more difficult) for production of nuclear arms, depending on a fuel that will once again be used as a tool to control the international politics arena. I for one, would really prefer a solution where we shake our nuclear habit completely.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Here is a diagram of where they think fission might have occurred. See the black arrows with the question mark, showing either inside the reactor vessel or on the floor of the containment vessel where the corium may have melted down into. Notice the temperature readings given for the used fuel rod pool and the bottom of the reactor vessel, but no temp reading is given for the bottom of the containment vessel. Hmmm... http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20111102-00000035-mai-soci.view-000

Since radiactive Iodine has not been detected, which you would also expect in a fissive reaction, they say there remains the possibility of false Xenon readings and thus no fission after all.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

PS On the right of the diagram is the gas extraction and measuring facility. Above the reactor vessel is where they indicate the boric acid water is being poured. Presumably the water will hit the first heap of corium and then leak through to land on the second pile of corium either of which is where the criticality may have occurred.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I for one, would really prefer a solution where we shake our nuclear habit completely.

And I would agree with that completely.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Fukushima has a new meibutsu: fission' chips.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

How far has this melted radioactive morass sunk down into the earth?

What next is to be released?

Not to worry -we will find out next month as hot spots appear all over again..........

4 ( +5 / -1 )

nandakanamanda,

thank you for the diagram.

This a link to a good article on Thorium

"Thorium, Not The Nuclear Savior Claimed"

http://houseoffoust.com/group/?p=3101

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Good read zichi. Many thanks. I have now changed my position to totally anti-nuclear, whether uranium or thorium.

Just too many proofs that no system is perfect, and nuclear really needs to be perfect.

The results of any accident are too expensive and too depressing for the future of this planet.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Hey zichi, I guess you did not bother to read the comments on that thorium page.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

cactusJack, thanks for the pointer. A good lesson in how we should see things from all sides.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

As I have been saying all along, this is FAR from over and I bet they know full well. It is just like how in the very early days they lied and said a meltdown was "impossible" and low and behold triple meltdown. They will never tell us how bad things really are. These people all need to be put in prison.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

nandakandamanda, welcome to the non atomic power club. I wasn't really against nuclear energy until the Fukushima disaster.

I think 20 million people could turn the tide in this country, and would also be a powerful voting block in a general election.

cactusjack, I read all the comments too. Like I said in my comment, it was "a good link" so people can read the for and against. I don't think its the answer personally believing that renewables is the right direction.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

The Chinese are currently building Thorium reactors.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@whiskeysour "And where does the gas go ? Out into the atmosphere ?" I am not really sure why you got so many thumbs up for a sentence that is nothing but FEAR MONGERING! any high-school kid can tell you xenon gas is MUCH denser than "air." I dont know about you but radioacive xenon gas rising into the atmposhe is like rock floating in water!!! The only way the gas woudd esacpe is if there was a fire or exlposion to propell the heavy gas up and out! i did not read anything about a fire or an explosion... did you?

Is nuclear energy unsafe? you bet it is!!!! do we need it? you bet!!! Is driving a car unsafe? YOU BET IT IS. It is the SINGLE MOST DANGEROUS THING YOU WILL EVER DO IN YOUR LIFE! what do we do with technology that we NEED but needs improvement? learn from our mistakes and make it better. Just wandering.... how many people died in car wreck last year in the USA??? how many of radiation sickness in Japan.... yappari!

just saying there are probably better things to creat fear mongering for... and of all those car wrecks in the USA how many were becuase of drunk drivers? so do you not think that all the time and anxiety wasted on fukushima would be better spent trying to stop car wrecks or at least drunk driving which is a problem all over the world.

or

the slave trade! did you know there are more slaves in the world today than ANY time in history!!! sorry but it is sad and a FACT. look it up.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

@Robert Dykes - this does not mean that we shouldn't be doing something about it. there are degrees of what is acceptably unsafe and Tokyo and Japan from Tohoku to Shizuoka is heavily polluted now and it's not something that denial or ignore can dismiss away. Point is - it was avoidable and now we shouldn't go into apathy over it by accepting the status quo and reverting back to a an energy source that has no place on an unstable environment!

4 ( +6 / -2 )

The greatest reason for not having nuclear reactors of any kind, in Japan is because its a powerful earthquake country and prone to mega tsunamis.

If power companies had to build reactors with the state-of-the-art safety standards, like the one being built in Finland, and only had a life of 30-years, they wouldn't build them because there wouldn't be enough profit in it for them.

TEPCO was requested in 2006 by NISA, to carry out earthquake improvements on 600 essential pieces of equipment. It didn't do that, but had done so then probably there would not have been a nuclear disaster.

In 2008, there was discussion about earthquakes and tsunamis and the likely affect on nuclear power plants. The Tokai atomic power plant sea wall was increased in height because of those discussions, but Fukushima wasn't.

The Hamaoka atomic power plant is built on the intersection of two tectonic plates and near to the likely epicenter of the overdue Tokai Earthquake.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

ssway

It is just like how in the very early days they lied and said a meltdown was "impossible" and low and behold triple meltdown.

Nobody ever said that. Sounds like you are spinning the lies here!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Hold onto your hats folks! It is not over yet! If this is true it could lead to a far worse disaster than the original on march 11. how long would it take to evacuate Tokyo and where would they go?

0 ( +4 / -4 )

from the EX-SKF blog

Xenon was detected in the order of 10^-5 (ten to the power of minus 5) per cubic centimeter, says TEPCO's Matsumoto, it is significant enough to conclude it is not from March.

Matsumoto does think a localized, small-scale, and/or temporary nuclear fission may have occurred in Reactor 2. But not a large, sustained re-criticality, judging by the parameters (temperature, pressure, etc.).

It would be difficult to deny that the same thing is not happening in Reactors 1 and 3, says Matsumoto.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

This is fine, there's nothing to worry about.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

"There is a possibility that criticality, a self-sustaining nuclear chain reaction, occurred temporarily, Matsumoto said, but added it would not have been long enough to pose any risk."

Now, how did I know this wasn't going to 'pose any risk'? Ah, that's right... it's TEPCO's newest slogan.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I believe the government has provided full disclosure, cough, gasp...

1 ( +2 / -1 )

When the operators use words like feared, possibility, then follow up with, "no fresh danger at the plant" what are we to believe? So far ,as I am not a nuclear phisisist, or what ever this field of science proclaims its self to be, I am becoming increasingly relient on certain posters on this site to impart their knowledge of the situation. I would like therefor to ask Zichi a direct question, is the current situation in your estimation under safe control and do you think the truth is being told in regards to the cold shutdown any time soon?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Well, I think anyone can answer the first question immediately. No, it is not under safe control. The whole clean-up operation is being played by ear, day by day and week by week. No-one has ever attempted to deal with such a scenario before. The best we can say is that they are trying to monitor everything and hope to be able to deal with any unexpected situation which arises. So far, so good...

In the meantime they have set various aims and goals to work towards to give everyone a sense of security. Naturally there will be wobbles along the way, and constant buffeting by aftershocks, but the thing for which we have to be most thankful is that it appears that the govt and the power company are determined to see this thing through, at whatever the cost.

Zichi will doubtless be here in a minute to answer more fully, but their goal of January 2012 has been moved back to the end of 2011. Look at that schedule closely and you will notice a one day difference!!!

As long as you are aware that 'cold' means not cold to the touch but 'under 100 degrees' and therefore it is not absolute or stable but something that has to be steered and controlled day by day, then you will be on the right track, IMHO.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Squid: Yeah. I agree. My point was --not very well expressed-- that we shouldn't even be in this situation where we can suffer the consequences of uranium and its isotopes. Thorium and other types of reactors --proven much safer-- should have been used to bridge the gap from fossil to renewable but once the US got a reactor in a sub all they did was upscale that in SIZE and well, the rest is history...

1 ( +4 / -3 )

As long as you are aware that 'cold' means not cold to the touch but 'under 100 degrees' and therefore it is not absolute or stable but something that has to be steered and controlled day by day, then you will be on the right track, IMHO.

'Under 100 degrees' sounds fine, but what does it really mean? Where and how do they measure it? I haven't seen any report that confirms that TEPCO has finally managed to measure the temperatures inside the reactor vessels or at the bottom of the containments in a reliable way (or at all).

4 ( +4 / -0 )

crickets...flaming radioactive crickets....

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Oh well... It's not just Japanese who blame the car for a car accident instead of the driver.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Thorium and other types of reactors --proven much safer

YongYang, how in the world has Thorium been proven much safer if it's never been implemented? Why not try to develop other technologies that may have much fewer risks, like renewable energy sources? Why spend the trillions and trillions on this technology when we can spend it on the next, cleaner, safer, more sustainable one?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Christina O'Neill,

I'm not any kind of expert with atomic energy or nuclear power plants. I have never claimed to be, on this forum or anywhere else. Prior to 3/11 I knew very little about this. I'm an ex electrical engineer with wide experience, mainly in the heavy chemical industry. I have some power generation experience but no nuclear power plants.

These days and for many days since before, I'm an artist, who is now sort of semi-retired.

Since 3/11, I've been on a massive learning curve. I realised early on that TEPCO and the government weren't telling the truth so the only way I could know they weren't was by getting into those massive reports written to the IAEA, and try and get some understanding about atomic power. On this forum, there are more qualified people than I could ever be.

I've tried to make my comments on this topic honest, backed up by data and somewhere still in the realm of reason. I read all the TEPCO reports and several blogs including ones which are pro nuclear energy. I avoid the conspiracy blogs because I don't totally trust the info they give.

I think, after 3/11, TEPCO was in denial such a disaster could even happen and the government was also having to deal with three mega disasters. A tough situation for just about any government.

TEPCO actually thought somehow it could save the plant, or even rebuild and open the plant again, one day.

Since about May, the shame and guilt kicked in, and all those working for TEPCO realised they were basically responsible for the disaster. In the last couple of months, TEPCO have been more honest and more open about what they know.

But there's much TEPCO just does not know. There's no previous disaster to draw data from.

The plant is still pouring out very high levels of radiation into the atmosphere. The reactor buildings 1-3 are very much no go areas for workers. TEPCO is relying on robots and they lost one the other day. The plant structure was badly damaged by 3/11, the strength of the structures weakened.

I would say the plant is stable as would be expected at this stage. I don't think there will be any further explosions. The melted fuel temperature is below the boiling point of water, so highly radioactive steam is not being produced. There will be times when the temperature of the fuel may again increase in short bursts.

While spent fuel remains in their open cooling pools there will be some kind of danger. Until the melted fuel is removed which could take 10-20 years, there will be some kind of danger.

No3 reactor building is the most critical part of the plant because it was the most destroyed by the explosions.

Until the plant is decommissioned and dismantled 30-70 years, there will be some kind of danger.

In the last couple of months I have become more trusting of the info released by TEPCO.

Christina, I'm not sure I've answered your questions or addressed your concerns. Just keep reading this forum.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Zichi, Very nice informative post...thank you. I am new here and I'm trying to read all I can on the subject of Fukushima. You say you read blogs, but not the conspiracy ones. Boy, I can agree with that. There are some crazy people and theories out there. Would you mind (and is it allowed) to mention the blogs you read that you consider legitimate and credible on his subject? Thanks!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Like Zichi, I also have learned much since 3/11 and what has surprised me the most is the way in which TEPCO can control the flow of information that affects the entire Country of Japan and the rest of the World! Everyone that has been following the meltdowns, melt-thru or what ever label is used has been very concerned with ground water contact with the molten corium that now exists below what used to be the reactor pressure vessels.

Until TEPCO and the Japanese Gov't. start releasing DATA that is factual and not massaged, everyone has cause to be very concerned, especially since TEPCO's tract record for sharing info and or "gaming" the info it does share!

As many of us have been saying for a very long time TEPCO's myth of "Cold Shutdown" is now going to make them look Un-Profess­ional to the rest of the World!

In this case TEPCO's use of "Cold Shutdown" does not mean that the reactor is safe and everything is "Normal"...

2 ( +3 / -1 )

In this case TEPCO's use of "Cold Shutdown" does not mean that the reactor is safe and everything is "Normal"...

CaptD, I don't think anybody including TEPCO has claimed that would be the case. Wasn't the most recent estimate this week that it would take 30 years to decommission the plant? Even the most pie-in-the-sky optimist knows this is going to take years and years to approach anything like "normal" or "safe".

zichi, great post.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

pawatan The use of "Cold Shut Down" and the information black out has been used to keep Fukushima off the Main Stream Media (MSM) radar, that is why I call them on it... We have heard too many times since 3/11 that everything is under control when in effect the Japanese are dealing with an entirely new phase of Nuclear Physics that is not in any way being totally controlled under laboratory conditions!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

CaptD

The main reason why Fukushima is off the radar of MSM is that with all stories, they just move on.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The use of "Cold Shut Down" and the information black out has been used to keep Fukushima off the Main Stream Media (MSM) radar, that is why I call them on it.

CaptD, it's in the news here everyday, what do you mean? I don't understand this at all.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Another concern I have is that while they are constructing the "dam" to prevent radioactive water from leeching or flowing into the Pacific Ocean what are they doing to prevent the Corium(s) from contacting the ground water immediately below the reactor(s) "basemat" which is the only thing between the Soil below the complex? I is very important to prevent the hot Corium from contacting water because of the radioactive steam that will result!

Because of the close proximity of the Pacific Ocean and the ground water under the Reactor Complex this is THE most feared interaction and we need to get an update on what TEPCO is doing to make sure that this cannot happen! A venting of radioactive steam, once started will make access to the entire Complex much harder if not impossible and as everyone knows there is decades of work to be done!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

pawatan MSM at least in America has NOT been following Fukushima and or the pollution that has been coming from it! Even today, what is happening is not one the top stories! Even HuffingtonPost has not started a new page and folks are continuing to update this "old" page from 30 Sept: (with 2,500+ comments) Japan Earthquake 2011: Government Lifts Some Evacuation Notices Near Damaged Nuclear Plant http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/japan-earthquake-2011-gov_n_989682.html

0 ( +0 / -0 )

CaptD

the reactors are built on solid bedrock. I have looked at maps and I can't see any water table under the plant. I have checked the direction of nearby rivers. All water is flowing in the direction of the sea.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Interesting to watch this World Nuclear News Facebook page. They don't seem know how to address this new news either. http://www.facebook.com/WorldNuclearNews And of course, you heard of the hole in 2 didn't you? corbettreport http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f9Vw1tEx9Tw

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Zichi I would love to get a link (in English) for the Geology of the Fukushima Complex! Since 3/11, I've read that the site was lowered before construction, that there are many faults or cracks in the rock below it and even that there is "landfill" directly under the Complex... I still think (and I have not been on site) that radioactive water is leaking and or flowing below ground into the Pacific Ocean in huge quantities which to me means that there are ground water issues that we know nothing about! I've even suggested many months ago that they close off the seawall and pump it out, to reduce hydraulic pressure under the complex!

The only reason that this has not been done is that I believe that TEPCO would like to restart #5 and or #6 sometime in the future and they want to keep their options open, which is putting their entire Complex at risk because an uncontrollable radioactive steam venting could make the entire Complex highly radioactive, (then what?), not to mention the global pollution implications!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The Japanese I know, they are camped out n front of keisansho. They are arrested by the police ffor protesting against Toden's crimes. . The Japanese I know are Fukushima organic farmers who want to evacuate but the govt says it is safe, so they are stuck, as they will not get compensation if they leave. The Japanese I know are not you. They do not blame foreigners. They blame authority and absolute obedience to it. They blame an education system which does not teach people to think for themselves. They detest cronyism between Tepco and METI. The Japanese I know are tired of those who loudly proclaim their nationalism Just like the foreigners I know, who detest nationalists in their country. In every country you will meet people who blame every ill on foreigners, on minorities. In every country you will meet people who want to believe that the govt is telling the truth. In every country you will find a compliant media to a certain degree. The Japanese I know neither trust their media nor do they automatically expect the foreign media to be right on all issues...for example, in my country the national media have historically been cheerleaders for war and capitalism. But the reporters, Japanese and non Japanese, who stayed and report what the Japanese mainstream do not report--Jimbo san for example, David McNeiil for another. They live here. They are not liars nor sensationalists. But they know that the kisha clubs to which most mainstream reporters belong demand they not report except what they are told. So if you are happy to live in such a world, you are welcome to. But know that increasingly many Japanese do not share that view. Increasingly people are learning they are being lied to so that METI can promote business as usual and the criminals at Tepco can go on falsifying safety reports and sell nuclear reactors to Jordan, to Indonesia and Vietnam.

It is always business as usual for them, but there is a culture of resistance growing in this land, not unlike what you see in Egypt, or in and around Wall Street these days.

It may not yet be a revolution, but the Japanese I know are tired of foreigner hating nationalists in their midst and they see you and the govt you defend as the enemy.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Here is what I located about the Steel Barrier: http://forum.gloresis.com/2011/09/01/groundwater-around-fukushima-nuke-plant-to-be-prot/

Any one have any updates?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Not believed to indicate a major problem. Ha! Just like there was little possibility of meltdown, little chance that radiation would travel very far. Yes. We all believe you TEPCO.

I always wonder what news some of the people here are reading to get these sort of garbage. For the upteenth time, the high possibility of meldown was suspected and stated by Edano as early as March 14th.

And this latest news of new fission kind of sums up that the media is running out of "panic" materials which a certain section of the population has the hunger for.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I agree with nigelboy in that TEPCO knew that a meltdown had occurred as early as March13th . the operator at TEPCO witnessed Neutron Beams 13 times at Daiichi on March 13th and 15th.

The neutron beam may be evidence that uranium and plutonium—used in the cores of the reactors for nuclear fission have leaked.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Paul Arenson Great comment, I hope that ever more Japanese people wake up before any more problems make their lives less healthy! Let me say that this awakening is also happening in other Countries as their citizens also start asking their leaders why they are not be honest and or forthcoming!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

For the upteenth time, the high possibility of meldown was suspected and stated by Edano as early as March 14th

nigelboy -- and for the "upteenth time", let me remind you that Edano did state that there was the high possiblility of a meltdown, as you suggest, (how could he deny it when there was proof which the whole world could see?) but he also obfuscated on the severity of it and the number of reactors that were involved. Weeks after the outside world was saying there had been at least a 70% meltdown in three reactors, he was still sticking to phrases like "partial" meltdown. He never admitted that it was a near complete meltdown until anyone with half a brain had already reached that conclusion. So, the J-government's credibility on all this is hardly very good. Which might just be why the IAEA has basically demanded that Japan be more forthcoming with information. Or did you miss that?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Weeks after the outside world was saying there had been at least a 70% meltdown in three reactors, he was still sticking to phrases like "partial" meltdown. He never admitted that it was a near complete meltdown until anyone with half a brain had already reached that conclusion.

Classic. LOL.

This statement needs to be archived for it basically sums up the complete lack of knowledge displayed by some who post here.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

CaptD,

what I know about the plant from reading an article from a retired engineer who helped build it. Prior to construction, there was a 30 foot hill which TEPCO removed to build the reactors on bed rock. But I think it was removed because it would have needed more costly pumps for the sea water. So the main section of the plant sort of sits in a bowl at almost sea level.

I think all rock will have cracks.

So far we have melted fuel sitting on the base of the concrete containment vessel. Did it melt through the concrete? I don't know? The reactor and the containment vessel were filled with water which certainly leaked into the reactor building basements, especially No1, and also the turbine halls.

External water is also leaking into No1 reactor basement at something like 500 tons per day.

I do believe that TEPCO might have some thoughts about restarting 5&6 reactors but it will never happen.

My main concern about a water table was to try and find out if it was getting into drinking water.

Maps are difficult. I actually went to a big library in my city to find some.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The gullible Japanese seem to think there is nothing to worry about and "I'm safe because I live in Tokyo not Fukushima" but from talking to many it seems word is getting out there and I suggest if you are living in Japan now to be worried, really worried, it's probably too late, have you received your guaranteed cancer dose yet? Did the particle of plutonium that's hunting you down lodge in your lung? Or did the cesium attach itself to your bones? How about your seafood? Taste like strontium? I can't stress the fact enough but there's a huge cover up going on and it's so huge the msm HAVE to ignore Fukushima because it will cause mass global panic and especially in Japan, see America needs Japan's economy therefore they will gladly assist in hiding the truth and downplaying the whole situation, little did we know some company's in Japan are on the verge of quitting or relocating, those that are aware the elites are prepared for this better than the majority of us, basically Fukushimas reactors use a deadly MOX fuel combination and that was never meant to be exposed and it has, it exploded remember in march, and this whole thing has been going on for what 8 months? Crazy, remember Chernobyl was only what week or so? And this is not just one reactor but 4 and others we don't know about,, Now there's another thing you must be aware of and that is contamination, what about all these gallons of nuclear fuel going into the ocean? How about the sea life and sea food we eat? Yes! Thats right it's all contaminated and what?? Fish swim don't they, so off go the pacific north west tuna,, and the rice?? The Japanese depend on rice!! It's no longer safe as its contaminated, this is huge, do your research please people wake up and get the message out there, hopefully this way the governments or whoever will be forced to do something, constructive, even robots are likely to malfunction soon as the radiation levels get higher and the corium is sinking into the ground water, we are faced with a problem man kind has never faced before and it's jut huge, please stay up to date and check enenews.com

0 ( +3 / -3 )

To all posters who replied to my questions, my sincere thanks. The information each one of you posted is valuable in helping me to understand the situation from all aspects.The In formation from Japan Today, is not always in depth sufficeint for the lay person to understand. Sorry for the delay in reply, but as I am a Home Carer, it is not always possible to be punctual. Once again , many thanks

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Infuri8,

so much of your first comment on JT is just plain wrong and mostly invented. You have actually read so little of what has happened at Fukushima. you have done nil research. I'm not even going to point out your gross errors. You have not even read the enenews otherwise you would know more, for instance,

the nuclear disaster at Chernobyl went on for many months. At Fukushima there are only 3 reactors involved. Only 1 reactor contained a portion of MOX fuel rod assemblies, less than 25% of the total in the reactor. Enough said!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Zichi Thanks, If you find any links to the Geology please post them for me! BTW: If you have not yet read the book Colonies In Space (1977) by T. A. Heppenheimer, you are in for a treat!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Christina O'Neill, You are welcome, the whole idea is to get information that is up to date and accurite then share it whith as many folks as possible! Another source is Huffington Post, just search for "Japan Reactor" or start here and follow your star: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/30/japan-earthquake-2011-gov_n_989682.html

0 ( +0 / -0 )

herefornow

he also obfuscated on the severity of it and the number of reactors that were involved. Weeks after the outside world was saying there had been at least a 70% meltdown in three reactors, he was still sticking to phrases like "partial" meltdown

No offense, but that is semantic nit-picking at the very best.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

from the EX=SKF blog

There was no xenon or krypton detected on October 28. Then they were there in the analysis on November 1.

From TEPCO's handout for the press (11/2/2011), from November 1 to November 2, Krypton-85 (half life 10.8 years) went from 3.6 x 10^-3 to 5.3 x 10^-1, 100-fold increase

Xenon-131m (half life 12 days) went from to 5.3 x 10^-4 to 6.1 x 10^-4

Xenon-133 (half life 5 days) went from 6.5 x 10^-6 to below detection limit

Xenon-135 (half life 9 hours) went from 1.3 x 10^-5 to 1.7 x 10^-5.

The unit is Bq/cubic centimeter. According to wiki, "About three atoms of krypton-85 are produced for every 1000 fissions (i.e. it has a fission yield of 0.3%)". It sure looks like a nuclear chain reaction happening, i.e. re-criticality, the possibility of which TEPCO's Matsumoto has already admitted.

The numbers for krypton and xenon are still under evaluation.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

CaptD

MSM at least in America has NOT been following Fukushima and or the pollution that has been coming from it!

But why would they? It's not an American issue at all, so unless there are major changes they aren't going to write new stories. I doubt the press in any country is following events in a different country unless they directly affect the first country. I don't see how it's anything unusual.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

CapD

Like I said, if you want to find maps, especially older ones you need to visit a good library. I'm somewhat happy that libraries still have a good use.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ herefornow

Weeks after the outside world was saying there had been at least a 70% meltdown in three reactors, he was still sticking to phrases like "partial" meltdown. He never admitted that it was a near complete meltdown until anyone with half a brain had already reached that conclusion.

Exactly, TEPCO/ J Govt did not admit to the meltdowns till 2 months later May 13th to be exact. But TEPCO knew of the possibility March 13th.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Was spontaneous fission the cause of the Xenon being detected?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ CrazyJoe

That's a good question, I personally don't think the reactors ever stopped Fission and with the melt through fission is probably happening underneath the things.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

According to TEPCO Oct 14 press release, titanium was also detected.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I meant tritium.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Utrack,

Correct me if I'm wrong here but are you confusing the difference between "core damage" to "core meltdown" in regards to this " 70%" figure.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

News for you all, Japan will NEVER evacuate TOKYO, if your remember those great Godzilla movies about all the Japanese running for their lives well something similar would happen not only to us here in TOKYO but if I know my Japanese amigos, the whole country would be running for the hills, so the Japanese government needs to control this ASAP up there in Fukushima that is way too close for comfort for us here in the capital of Nippon.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Infuri8, your comment contains many errors.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@ nigelboy

Meltdown, because TEPCO knew early on but did not release the information in full. The TEPCO operator admitted to seeing Neutron beams 13 times on March 13th and 15th which signals a probable meltdown from what I have been reading. I just watched NHK on their website and they stated NO Neutron radiation has been detected outside of the reactor. But those neutron beams landed I think a km which is not too far from the reactors in March.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No Utrack. I'm specifically talking about the "70% meltdown" that herefornow stated in which you agreed with. Can you cite the source of this "outside world source".

Thanks in advance.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Correction: The TEPCO operator detected a neutron beam, a type of radioactive ray, about 0.9 miles (1.5 kilometers) southwest of the earthquake-crippled plant’s No. 1 and 2 reactors between March 13 and 15. The beam was about 0.01 to 0.02 microsievert per hour, which is not a dangerous level of radiation.

But Neutron radiation IS VERY LOW anyway and deep penetrating, it goes through concrete.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@ nigelboy

No Utrack. I'm specifically talking about the "70% meltdown" that herefornow stated in which you agreed with. Can you cite the source of this "outside world source".

you can google that, it's all over the web.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ CrazyJoe

I hope Sonoda wasn't drinking tritium.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Help me out Utrack. Just one link.

thanks Utrack.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@ Nigelboy

Hanging by your Fingernails - The Fukushima Meltdown: Michio Kaku on April 4, 2011, 8:30 PM

http://bigthink.com/ideas/37705

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Energy Secretary Steven Chu said Friday that roughly 70 percent of the core of one reactor at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan had suffered severe damage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/asia/02japan.html?_r=1

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Oh no Utrack. You dissapoint me.

Even your idol states "70% of the Unit 1's core is damaged"

Exactly what TEPCO stated on March 16th.

http://www.hokkaido-np.co.jp/cont/nuclear0316/123546.html

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Energy Secretary Steven Chu said Friday that roughly 70 percent of the core of one reactor at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant in Japan had suffered severe damage.

"Damage" again!!! April 1st is the date of article. You're getting better.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ nigelboy

I'm laughing.. You know Japan had the US apologize for saying the word meltdown.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Just wondering..... what happened to the "Fukushima 50"? I may have missed it, but they were supposed to be heroes and to have taken a high dosage of radiation. It seem they disappeared, I have not seen anything in the press on how much radiation they ended up with and their current status.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Radioactive Iodine 131 is also an indicator of fusion. The CTBTO monitoring site in Japan (Takasaki, near Maebashi) has detected RISING and FALLING and RISING levels of Iodine 131 in the air from March until June. Here is the graph:

http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_jod.gif

The CTBTO also shows a rather consistent level of cesium in the air from March until June as well, based on the monitor in Japan. Here is the graph:

http://www.bfs.de/de/ion/imis/ctbto_aktivitaetskonzentrationen_caesium.gif

It sure does look like re-criticality at Fukushima is not a new phenomenon...only the reporting by TEPCO is new. Any ideas why CTBTO is NOT reporting any data from the monitoring station in Japan after June?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Should read: Radioactive Iodine 131 is also an indicator of fission.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Before this thread degenerates, may I just say that we need to keep our heads cool and do our best to keep abreast of what Tepco is discovering.

No one source of information will be the absolute truth, but by reading between the lines, an actual picture begins to emerge upon which we can make informed personal decisions.

infuri8's heart is in the right place, but lack of punctuation, one sentence running into another, and ideas jumping from here to there, runs the danger of starting to sound like conspiracy theorists. It loses the very audience it so desperately appeals to. Reminds me of me when I was younger! LOL

gonemad, quote "'Under 100 degrees' sounds fine, but what does it really mean? Where and how do they measure it? I haven't seen any report that confirms that TEPCO has finally managed to measure the temperatures inside the reactor vessels or at the bottom of the containments in a reliable way (or at all)."

Good question. From what I have read some of their reactor gauges were damaged by internal condensation in the high humidity and needed replacing. Presumably these are working since critical decisions are made on the reactor temperatures.

As to whether they can measure the temperature at the bottom of the containment vessels, the lack of such figures on yesterday's diagram raised a question mark in my mind. Did they foresee a need to have gauges there? If not, can they get underneath it to install such? I wonder what is running through their minds right now, and what is hidden behind the statement quoted by zichi above that they now feel a need to check No 1 and No 3 for the same type of phenomena.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I guess this means that a cold shutdown is not attainable at year's end then...............?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

As a nuclear physicist, I'd like to state my opinion here. I mostly agree very well with Zichi's posts. TEPCO mostly does rather reasonable things since they admitted to the accident initially and they are on the right track. Their definition of cold shutdown means only that the temperature on the surface of all fissile material is at most 100 deg C and that the probability for rapid deterioration of the state of the reactors (further explosions or the like) can be considered low. That doesn't mean at all that the situation is under control.

The Xenon and Krypton is probably not a source from spontaneous fission, but from a recriticality. Please keep in mind that in the various explosions at the spent fuel pools in the different buildings fragments of fuel elements have been ejected. These fuel elements, if a sufficient mass is physically close together, can return to criticality once it is sufficiently surrounded by material slowing down the neutrons (since the usual U235 induced fission requires thermal (slow) neutrons). These will heat up the environment and the material slowing the neutrons, which is typically water. Thus, the heated water evaporates effectively halting the criticality until the uranium cools down and new water returns. This is exactly the mechanism in the natural nuclear reactor in Oklo in Gabon.

The reason why I believe that it should be recriticality instead of spontaneous fission is that the mass distribution of fission products. For an induced fission reactions, the energy release is a combination of the binding energy of the fissioning nucleus and the kinetic energy of the neutron. Thus, there is more binding energy available for the fission products, which means that they can be located at higher binding energies in the periodic table. Which means closer to iron and thus lighter nuclei like Krypton instead of Xenon. Spontaneous fission is not exactly balanced, but the two heaviest fission products are closer together in mass than for induced fission. Typical ratios for the heaviest fission products are mass ratios 2:3 for induced fission and something like 4:5 (or so) for spontaneous fission.

If you juggle numbers, U235 will thus yield typically masses of almost 90 for the light and almost 135 for the heavier daughter products. This leads naturally to Strontium and Krypton on the light side and Cesium, Iodine and Xenon on the heavier side. Of course, others are produced, too.

Different countries' media have different focuses. For my country, Germany, which has a strongly anti-nuclear public, there are in quite a few mainstream (internet) newspapers on average one or two new articles on the status of the Fukushima accident. I guess countries which maintain nuclear ambitions try to keep Fukushima out of focus.

There are quite a lot of activities for accessing renewable energy sources. However, they are not balanced worldwide and there is not enough international cooperation. And many countries decide against pursuing renewable sources. Some countries believe they have just invested too much in nuclear power to be still able to shake the nuclear addiction. Sounds a bit like junkies and alcoholics...

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@ kurisupisu

I guess this means that a cold shutdown is not attainable at year's end then...............?

Cold shutdown implies that the fuel is still in the containment vessel reactor and can be stabilized under 100 degrees Celsius. In this case the fuel has escaped from all of containment and is in the open air. They cannot achieve "cold shutdown". They may be able to cool the fuel outside the reactor sufficiently so that it is below 100C however.

The train has already left the station folks.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

No, ssway, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the reactor fuel is in the open air, (except maybe bits of fuel rods spat out separately from the jiggled fuel pools).

When the rods melted inside the reactor, they dripped down and formed a lump of corium at the bottom of the reactor.

Some of that seems to have leaked out through the control rod slots and down onto the floor of the containment vessel, which surrounds the reactor and serves as a second line of defense.

The question that people are asking is how far the lower lump of corium may have eaten into the containment structure's solid concrete underneath. One third way through? No-one on site is suggesting that this second line has been breached, I believe.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

ssway, do you even read the analysis from experts or just post without thinking? You post is entirely factually incorrect. Do you care?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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