Study shows deeper meltdown than thought at Fukushima nuclear reactor

They knew this from the beginning.

The water tankers and helicopter water drops were all a show for the masses.

They knew this from the beginning.

we also knew from day one.

seems the details are slowly coming out... In 30+ years we may know the full story and how at risk and dangerous the situation really is / was.

And we KNOW it's not a meltdown but two MELT THROUGHS. The media here just seems to refuse to want to use the reality of what is happenING in Fukushima. Some of us called it from Day Zero.

Correct Namabiru - In 30+ years we may, just may find out the full story. Until then, comments as above from some14some are worthless and pointless.

I don't believe what TEPCO says anymore.

"Radioactive debris from melted fuel rods may have seeped deeper into the floor of a Japan’s tsunami-hit nuclear reactor than previously thought, to within a foot from breaching the crucial steel barrier, a new simulation showed Wednesday."

They still aren't telling the whole story. There is no point in placing any trust in whatever TEPCO says.

Oh wait, what? It is worse than they thought? What a shock!!!!

So, when are we actually going to get the truth? When are they going to stop trying to promote Fukushima food? When are they going to get those families out of there??

Edano should apologize. He seems strangely silent through all of this.

Best case SIMULATION, almost as good as the SIMULATION of truth released.

measuring the temperature of empty cores is meaningless

True.

But one thing good about the cores melting through is that gravity will drag them down down down, and then they will not have to be cleaned up. Earth's core will take care of that for us. The fast they god down down down, the better off we are.

They all knew this from the start and hid everything from everyone until now. Now that it`s in the open, what will they do to make things better for everyone in Japan!!!! Make more excuses and cover up more lies until they get caught!! They should realistically face their mistakes like a true person while scrapping all nuclear projects in Japan. They should compensate everyone in Japan for all of what they did and close down their company for good!! They are all liars, deceivers and a whole of criminals thats being protected by the Japanese government!! What a shame!!!! Because of them, no one can ever trust a Japanese person again!!!

We are talking about simulation here. Only some self-declared experts in the readers forum actually claim to know exactly what the cores look like.

@mabodofulsspicy, you do realize that all nuclear power companies (save for one, obviously) have spent millions to prevent just that from happening, and why is that exactly? What happens when the very hot radioactive core reaches ground water depositories underground, and suddenly turns into steam with a volume requirement 100 times that of the space that it has? Can you say steamy BOOM?

Nuclear industry knowledge of Tepco is decades behind those in western countries. Tepco didn't even know about prussian blue! Even I learned about it in high school, and that was TWO decades ago! Everybody BUT Tepco knew what happened and to what extend.

More guesses from TEPCO.

These simulations rely on data input, but most of the gauges in the reactors were destroyed, and direct visualization of the RV is not possible; carbon-based workers would not survive more than a few seconds of radiation that has at times measured 500 Seiverts/ hour in the basements. Robots are also useless, their camera CCDs are swamped by the gamma radiation, while the chips may also be fried.

Validation of the simulation software/ programme is also required. Who knows quality of these simulations?

But one thing good about the cores melting through is that gravity will drag them down down down, and then they will not have to be cleaned up. Earth's core will take care of that for us. The fast they god down down down, the better off we are.

True, but then again, how about the radiation that these will spew out before they are in a "safe distance" from the surface?

If the simulation proves to be true, then former director Yoshida should be compensated for his "pump seawater" emergency action. He has been reprimanded for doing so, and later was proven to be the correct action by experts. If he didn't pump seawater, then the melted materials might have gone deeper.

But as the other posters have already mentioned, it might be impossible at this time to confirm the actual damage done by the meltdown. But I still believe there is a way to find out if the materials are still contained or not, I'm just hoping our "experts" (note: not politicians, but actual scientists) find a way soon.

bottom line, how is this affecting my and my children's, (and my future grandchildren's) health? all this mumbo jumbo is meant to inform us but all it does is add to the confusion.

Anyone here still advocating nuclear energy as cheap and SAFE for Japan??

Study shows deeper meltdown than thought at Fukushima nuclear reactor

A study? How about proof and evidence. All this guessing is not very reassuring is it?

Folks, I just want to let you know that this topic became a big nightly CBS news in US tonight. The food safety issue associated with this meltdown was well focused in the news. The world is watching to make sure TEPCO and Japanese government keep up with transparency as they promised.

@Elbuda: Yes, If built and operated correctly, still safe and still cheap - no better alternatives in this country.

@NeverSubmit

Edano should apologize. He seems strangely silent through all of this.

He is not the cabinet secretary anymore and hence doesn't give briefings.

Tmarie: Correct. Been saying that all along. Relocate, relocate, relocate. There is no sense in staying in those areas. Start over while you still can. Zichi: Yes, the real problem seems to be the spread of radiation and the lack - thereof - of containing the problem - being in foodstuff and such. Rickyvee: Couldn't agree more! Do I sell my land and get out? Or, tough it out under the umbrella of hope?

two possibilities:

a- still to this day (and forever) they are lying and hiding information

b- they truly haven't the foggiest idea what the h3ll happened, nor the extent of still lurking damage and danger to us all

Zichi. As always you are spot on!

RickyVee. Exactly. The children. Our children. If I knew exactly what I was dealing with and what the future implications were, I'd feel better. As it is, I feel in the dark and I really don't like the feeling.

Some of the readers here criticize the J government for not revealing crucial informations about the meltdown during the first days of the nuclear crisis. Yes, you are right. Jgov indeed lied to all of us.

However, just imagine the chaos that would follow having Edano declare something like a full meltdown few days after the earthquake and with international press already covering the crisis with sensationalized articles. It would have been a disaster.

You should give credits to the Japanese people for acting rationally during the first days of the crisis. If this had happened anywhere else, i doubt that everything would have been so "normal" like it was here in cities with millions of people just few hundred kms away from Fukushima. Part of this behavior though was a result of these "shinpai shinaide" comments by Mr. Edano. Indeed, i was panicked because i was listening to global media but all the Japanese who listened to the government's announcements felt comfortable enough to go on with their daily routine (including my gf as well). I can't imagine what would have happened otherwise...

Did Chernoble melt through the cement and go down into the ground?

I am still Nuclear pro for Japan, but they need to bring in outside experts to examine all plants immediately and start protecting them.

Stupid shows Tepco still doesn't know what they are doing

@ Antonios_M: I don't think covering up/providing false information does any good in the short or long terms. Don't build Japan up and congratulate them on being calm, whilst putting other nations down. People were calm because they believed in authority. Months later people are beginning to see the truth and feel hurt. The foreign press "sensationalised" things as you put it, but they were actually right at the time.

Like I have said all along, the most dangerous thing to come out of Fukushima nuclear disaster has been the lies and cover-ups.

Folks, I just want to let you know that this topic became a big nightly CBS news in US tonight. The food safety issue associated with this meltdown was well focused in the news. The world is watching to make sure TEPCO and Japanese government keep up with transparency as they promised.

Now the question is, does Japan continue to lie and cover it up, like usual, or will tey actually do something - like ban all food from the area?

However, just imagine the chaos that would follow having Edano declare something like a full meltdown few days after the earthquake and with international press already covering the crisis with sensationalized articles. It would have been a disaster. It was and still IS a disaster. The articles weren't sensational. Did you read the above article? This isn't chicken little. The sky is falling and the Japanese government insists it isn't.

You should give credits to the Japanese people for acting rationally during the first days of the crisis. Perhaps if they knew the full extent of the problem, they wouldn't have. However, the government and TEPCO lied to them so they thought all was well. What isn't rational is continuing to raise children in the area, sell the food produced in the areas and spread the contaminated soil all over the place. If that is rational to you, I hate to think of what you see as being irrational.

People need to realize, there are places outside of Fukushima with higher levels of radiation than in Fukushima. It's becoming a national problem, not just a local prefecture one.

Radiation from the atomic power plant has reached Okinawa.

It is only the beginning of a nightmare that will have persistent, horrible effects for...uh, wait, PLUTONIUM IS FOREVER...

@theResident:

@Elbuda: Yes, If built and operated correctly, still safe and still cheap - no better alternatives in this country.

I think Elbuda's point may have not been on the technology itself, but having it in Japan.. I don't think it's in the majority of this society to handle something as risky as this. They are recipe followers, not independent thinkers who look at something starting from the fundamentals. There are definitely some technical experts on the ground here, but they are not supported by corresponding level of expertise in their organizations (company, government, regulatory body, etc.).

As for the technology in general - at least 3 major nuclear incidents in 3 decades. Human error/ stupidity cannot be eliminated. Many of the people with vested interested in the technology are not experts that can/ want to grasp/ address the risks adequately. Technical failures also cannot be eliminated, no matter the amount of back-ups/ redundancy put in place. This is why many areas/ businesses talk in terms of 6-sigma uptime of computer systems, etc. There is a 'proof' in fail-proof - proof that it will fail. Remember how once things were called 'water-proof'. Now with a culture of insurance claims, law-suits, etc. we now have 'water-resistant'. Unfortunately for Fukushima, their back-up generators weren't even resistant..

In truth the fuel melted through the bottom all the way and is now melting its way through the earths core eventually to emerge at what ever point is straight through the earth from Fukushima, which luckily might be just south of africa.

As if tepco or the goverment are ever going to release what actually happened, forget about it, it's dissinformation the WHOLE lot of it !

@Antonios_MD

As I said before here and elsewhere, if you wait until a situation is obviously at dangerously critical levels to react, then it's likely too late for the majority to do anything about it. This is what happens in biology/ nature in major catastrophes: the majority of the population may get wiped out, but it is the lucky and the cautious that survive. I believe that without having better information available, it's better to play it safe. It's up to the individual to make the decision: to fight or fly; to flee or go down with the ship.

I personally cannot see the inherent abhorrent bad of chaos that many seem to perceive as axiom. I would choose significant chaos over significant radiation. Life can go on in chaos. Humans are highly adaptable to changing social conditions, but the body takes much longer to adapt to changing physical conditions (i.e. radiation).

However, just imagine the chaos that would follow having Edano declare something like a full meltdown few days after the earthquake and with international press already covering the crisis with sensationalized articles.

tmarie -- huh? It would appear that the international press was not producing "sensationalized articles" at all. In fact, the meltdown was as bad as some outside experts speculated it was, and shows how close TEPCO's/the government's delay in dumping water on the reactors -- you do remember that, right? -- came to causing a complete catastrophe. It would actually appear that the folks following the international press, and not the Japanese one being spoon-fed by Edano, had more accurate information on which to make decisions. And all those "flyjin" made potentially smart decisons and did not over-react to "sensational" coverage as many here on JT said.

An off-the-shelf infra-red camera would have shown them the location and heat intensity of the cores at any given time. They knew from the start that a melt through had occured.

They obviously decide to mislead the masses and release the truth in bits over time.

It's a standard PR technique, legally, they have told us the truth but the story doesn't get any traction because is months old.

People are more concerned about Michael Jackson's doctor.

@"exportexpert" - In truth the fuel melted through the bottom all the way and is now melting its way through the earths core eventually to emerge at what ever point is straight through the earth from Fukushima, which luckily might be just south of africa.

LOL - once it reaches the centre of the earth, if it even manages to get that far, it won't go anywhere else, other than being subject to dilution and circulation magma flows in the inner cores. Gravity at every point on this planet leads to the centre of the earth...

At least the guys calling any critical analysis of the disaster "demagoguery" have piped down - or have left Tokyo all together...

@ tmarie

It was and still IS a disaster. The articles weren't sensational. Did you read the above article? This isn't chicken little. The sky is falling and the Japanese government insists it isn't.

You said it, Exactly Right.

What is the future to be for Japan?

Recently river water in parts of Tohoku has been found to contain alarmingly high levels of radioactivity! This water is headed to the sea where it may enter the sea and marine life with inpunity-then into us! Debris form affected areas is burned and the radioactive emissions end up in us too. We consume food that is contaminated and that excreta becomes a deadly substance-witness tonnes of radioactive sludge at effluent plants building up all around Japan.

This is affecting the health of the people as well as its economy.

This build up of contamination even has an effect on the production of new products.

Refer to the decision that Mongolia has refused to import cars from Japan , (new vehicles) as recent shipments have found to have radioactive contamination above Mongolian legal limits, and we are seeing the start of a new trend. Watch the news for major companies to begin to close down plants in Japan and reopen them elsewhere. Already these closures are on the increase. Radioactive substances that are reacting out of containment cannot be stopped. These reactions will continue for many many years with the result that the contamination will do so too.

The Russians capped the Chernobyl reactor weeks after the accident with a mountain of concrete and other substances.

The Japanese have six reactors that are still not covered months after.......draw your own conclusions

The radioactive material might be headed for the center of the Earth, but I imagine that once it hits the water table it will end up in your drinking water, hot springs etc

One good thing about this news is that we are not caught by surprise. They are revealing that they definitely know that they screwed up. Before that it was only a CONJECTURE, even though a very probable one. Since the entire security aspects of nuclear plants are based on simulations and estimates -necessarily since they can't experiment - you can take these results as RELIABLE information.

It is almost impossible to protect the existing plants against these kinds of accidents as they are very fundamental problems with the construction. The first step would be a so-called "core-catcher" under the reactor core, which can withstand the heat from a core, which has melted through the second containment. However, this requires materials of the highest quality and the construction is difficult (as the construction of the new Finnish plant had clearly demonstrated).

And it would costs huge amounts of money, which would make it turn out unprofitable in most cases. Better shut them down and use the money for something sensible.

As well as vertical movement there is bound to be lateral movement too. Workers at the plants have reported steam coming from the ground away from the plant al The soil beneath the plant will have a different consistency at different depths. The result is that the material will move in different directions. The China syndrome scenario is wrong! The radioactive fuel,the lower it goes is likely to meet higher temperatures (Pacific ring of fire etc)

and then........?

this is getting uglier and uglier...but the corrupted scum japanese government still refuses to tell the truth to the people....what else can we expect?

@tmarie

Folks, I just want to let you know that this topic became a big nightly CBS news in US tonight. The food safety issue associated with this meltdown was well focused in the news. The world is watching to make sure TEPCO and Japanese government keep up with transparency as they promised.

Now the question is, does Japan continue to lie and cover it up, like usual, or will tey actually do something - like ban all food from the area?

However, just imagine the chaos that would follow having Edano declare something like a full meltdown few days after the earthquake and with international press already covering the crisis with sensationalized articles. It would have been a disaster.

It was and still IS a disaster. The articles weren't sensational. Did you read the above article? This isn't chicken little. The sky is falling and the Japanese government insists it isn't.

You should give credits to the Japanese people for acting rationally during the first days of the crisis.

Perhaps if they knew the full extent of the problem, they wouldn't have. However, the government and TEPCO lied to them so they thought all was well. What isn't rational is continuing to raise children in the area, sell the food produced in the areas and spread the contaminated soil all over the place. If that is rational to you, I hate to think of what you see as being irrational.

Well said, tmarie... Time for these LEMMINGS to take their heads out of their "arse" and realize what's really happening. Enough of so much useless shouganai and admit the TRUTH! The nuclear crisis is far from over. period. This is just beginning.

@herefornow

However, just imagine the chaos that would follow having Edano declare something like a full meltdown few days after the earthquake and with international press already covering the crisis with sensationalized articles.

tmarie -- huh? It would appear that the international press was not producing "sensationalized articles" at all. In fact, the meltdown was as bad as some outside experts speculated it was, and shows how close TEPCO's/the government's delay in dumping water on the reactors -- you do remember that, right? -- came to causing a complete catastrophe. It would actually appear that the folks following the international press, and not the Japanese one being spoon-fed by Edano, had more accurate information on which to make decisions. And all those "flyjin" made potentially smart decisons and did not over-react to "sensational" coverage as many here on JT said.

herefornow, honey...tmarie was quoting someone else, please re-read her post again.. lol (^_~)

Excellent post as usual, Zichi...Thank you for always keeping us informed.

[Masao Yoshida] was part of the chain of command and it's shame on him, he didn't make the right actions prior to 3/11 which could have prevented the nuclear disaster from even happening.

zichi, as we have learned in the meantime, there were too many issues with the plant and fixing them would have been impossible. He would have lost his job.

Herefornow, go back and read - thank you Blue Witch for also pointing that out! Zichi, well said!

There are several simulations showing a complete melt-through should have happened already. It's probably a safe assumption that the TEPCO study worked with rather optimistic assumptions. But even if we take the TEPCO study as a basis, we can assume that within something like a couple of months latest, the core will reach the soil below the plant. I do not believe that there are any ways to stop the core from melting through. What I would like to see are simulations which determine the further spread of radiation under the specific soil and ground water conditions at Fukushima and what technical possibilities remain to contain some of it.

Think we should Zichi up with his own radio station as he keeps us up with what is going on! Is there ever going to be an end to this situation or a time when it seriously is brought under control at least? What was it? The magic month January or something when all our prayers were to be answered!

Since May, Koide has been telling at the media that melted fuel has gone through containers and is on concrete foundations sinking into ground below. Underground dam has to be built right away. Or it will go down to the underground water, and eventually it will go out to the ocean. TEPCO is resisting because it costs 100 billion yen.

http://video.fc2.com/content/20110617uMBUrp7w/

@ Masterbape, tmarie, nonanon

Ok, so let's admit that J-gov did the wrong thing during the first days of the crisis and misinformed the people. What exactly do you expect it should have done? I hope you do realize that there are more than 40 million people living in Kanto area. The majority of them followed their daily routine precisely like nothing happened at all. (Well, except from the shortages in some supermarkets and Kombini stores, as well as the power blackouts). Other than that, the daily routine was 100% the same as before the earthquake.

Now imagine J-gov saying something like "The situation is out of control and we don't know exactly what is going on! Probably a full meltdown, so get out of here". This is not a vast country like Russia where you could have large number of population moving from one place to another easily. This is Japan, one of the most densely populated countries in the world. Where exactly would everybody have gone? Or do you believe that the J-gov could have organized a massive evacuation of the Kanto area like it did in Fukushima?

And let's imagine that the first who would have decided to quit their jobs and flee to the south were the airport workers. Yep, no flight available for abroad. Can you imagine the chaos that would follow? We tend to think that everything is in order and working, but thats not happening because of some kind of magic, but because civilized societies behave rationally and with a sense of duty and purpose. Having these gone, its very easily for everything to go bad. And believe me, when it does...it's really ugly.

Having to choose between an 100% honest government and chaos, and a 20% honest government and order...i would go for the second any time. Everybody who chooses the first probably has no idea what a real "chaos" looks like. Besides, now that we know that things are not as the government was saying, we can freely choose to leave, can't we? This is not Soviet Russia where everything was covered under propaganda and censorship. We do have the means of information to know at least if someone is covering the truth deliberately.

Sorry, tmarie, my comment should have been directed at Antonio. Got confused because you used "bold" and not "quote".

Having to choose between an 100% honest government and chaos, and a 20% honest government and order...i would go for the second any time. Everybody who chooses the first probably has no idea what a real "chaos" looks like. Besides, now that we know that things are not as the government was saying, we can freely choose to leave, can't we?

Antonios -- nonsense. That is simply rationailzing the government knowingly endangering the lives/health of hundreds of thousands of people because they feared "choas". What would have happened if it had melted down all the way through and there had been mass radioactive contamination? Would 20% honest still been good enough for you? The bottom line if the government and the agency had developed any kind of a crisis management plan beforehand, then releasing all the facts could have been handled properly. And people would have responded ratioanally. And, "choosing to leave" at this point is moot, since the truth is now eight months too late.

To TEPCO officials , Department heads, Japanese Government. Medias, etc etc... just tell the real facts and truth there is nothing we can do about this meltdown or whatchamacallit. 10 years or 100 years to decontaminate affected areas doesn't matter at all now because "Genpatsu" have spread and keep on spreading. Fukushima prefecture and surrounding areas are damn contaminated. Included all farm produced and whatever. Period. Just report the truth and daily intervention of whoever is working at the plant to contain the radiations. Too many speculations, and so on and so forth will only add to more insecurities of people affected. The other big problem the Japan government is facing is what to do with the lives of those affected.

zichiDec. 01, 2011 - 06:36PM JST

The plant was built to withstand a 7 point something quake, but on 3/11, the strength of the local quake was only 6 point something.

To measure the effects of a quake on a building the gal, a unit of acceleration, is used. This report (yup, from TEPCO) shows the ground accelerations being with the design ratings - though some are close to the limits

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11040103-e.htm

Where'd you get the info on the local magnitude? Aparently local magnitude saturates at M6.5 and so can't be used above that.

"TEPCO and government officials are aiming to achieve “cold shutdown” by the end of the year ". Can someone please tell me what this means? Because it seems to me that since no-one knows for sure where these melted blobs actually are...and it's too "hot" to send in humans or robots to inspect...HOW do they achieve"cold shutdown"? Please...WHAT THE HELL is TEPCO talking about?

herefornow, please, keep in mind that i don't excuse the government for not predicting a catastrophe of that scale. Yes, they should have had a management plan in case of a nuclear crisis. They didn't and they are definitely to blame for letting the irresponsible TEPCO deal with the issue, while they should have invited the best of the best of nuclear experts in order to deal with the crisis more effectively. They shouldn't have let an old nuclear factory operate in such a seismically active region like the Tohoku region. Yes, there is corruption behind this decision and the need to protect corporations in order to save face. Yes, it was terrible! If you have read my comments during March, you would have noticed how much i criticized the J-gov for these decisions and the lack of crisis management plan.

However, leaving the facts above aside....what would you expect the J-gov to have done? Saying something among the lines of "We don't know whats going on. The situation is uncontrolled and we don't have a plan. Run for your lives."??? Can you imagine what would have happened if only a glimpse of fear had spread to a country where the nuclear nightmare is still a part of the recent history? I don't want to imagine.

When the earthquake happened i was not in Japan. I was probably one of the few gaijins who actually came to Japan instead of leaving few days after the earthquake. This was because i was planning to take my gf who is working in Narita airport and either take her out of the country with me or take her to her family in the south. I was panicked, read several articles about Tokyo becoming a "nuclear wasteland", i saw the shortages in food and water, i was even scared about going out. I wanted to leave, my gf chose to stay and therefore, we stayed. She didn't want to quit her job. At that time, i didn't care at all about job, sense of duty, etc....all i cared about was her safety. Apparently though, she didn't listen to me and she convinced me to stay. Initially, i was angry, upset, shocked...etc. Now, i am grateful for that choice. I know few people who chose to leave and they regretted it afterwards. Keep in mind that it was in our hands whether to stay or not. There were sources and information available from everywhere, radiation monitoring, etc. Nobody forced us to stay here.

Yes, you can blame the J-gov for the way it dealt with the crisis, but not for trying to relax and comfort people.

Anyone surprised here has spent the last 8 months with their head in the sand - along with 99% of the population.

Officials coming to Fukushima have made it perfectly clear that they deem the residents of the area as nothing more than animals, the situation with the reactors is unknowable, residents within the region should move their children as no one has any idea of how devastating the situation could be once highly volatile molten cores hit low temperature ground water pockets in enclosed space - explosive? toxic for sure.

Actually Antonios_M, the government and the TEPCO officials already stated as early as March 14th that there was a high possibility of a meltdown. But a meltdown within the containment vessel versus a core melt through breaching the outer containment and into the ground are two different night and day scenarios. But the latter seemed unlikely simply because the water level after the injection of water into the inner core and the pressure within wasn't consistent with a melt through scenario.

How much of fuel rod melted is not a simple calculation where you can figure this out with a simple calculator. It takes analyzing many sets of data at long periods in order to determine this.

@almostshat

Japan is a wonderful country. The people are politeness and kindness. The food is very good taste. And Japan has four seasons. Everything is perfect. Anyone who questions the safety of food, water, school lunches, the purity of the air we breathe or who spreads baseless rumours about radiation or the nuclear reactor problem (which is under control and will achieve cold shutdown by year end) is a monster, a cockroach. We do not wish to know all these disturbing lies that you spread. We want to carry on with our daily lives as we always have. Nothing must be allowed to change our unique culture and our sacred customs. Anyone who dares to criticize our harmonious society (usually ignorant gaijins) should fly away; we do not want you here. All you think about is your wife and children. We Japanese must share the pain. Let's burn the debris all over the country. Let's eat delicious Fukushima rice. Let's all clean up school playgrounds together. At this time of year, let's try not to think about the people up north who are suffering some inconveniencies, when we should be thinking about more important things like "lucky" bags. Let's sleepwalk into oblivion with a smile on our face and a joyful heart. Ganbare nihon!

This post is 100% unbelievable. There is NO way a real Japanese person would post such lies and nonsense. I hope the moderator will do the right thing by removing this. It's extremely shameless and immoral.

@zichi

I would imagine that the rising temperatures in reactors 1-3 would indicate that the nuclear fuel is becoming more active that is emitting more energy...........fissioning! (was it a rhetorical question?)

@Bluewitch ; the above post is irony,almostshat is probably English or a Monty Phython lover.

Things are so screwed up at the moment that I can't tell what is farce or reality......

It' a good job Reactor 4 was off-line at the time. That's the one that was built with a faulty reactor vessel, due to a collapse during the process to remove welding stress. Built by Babcock-Hitachi at Kure-Hiroshima, it cost more than 250 million dollars and that last step of the process took more than 30 months to do. The vessel was misshapen. The vessel should have been scrapped under nuclear regulations, but it would have bankrupted the company, so the engineer Mitsuhiko Tanaka was paid 3 million yen back in 1974 to fix it, and received an award. TEPCO was not informed about it, as the rep sent to check it was wined and dined, golfed and hot-springed, but had no idea anyway about how it was made.

According to USC experts, the vessels deformation could have led to local cracking in the welds. Thirty- seven years later, that reactor pressure vessel would have been the key defense protecting the core of Fukushima’s No. 4 reactor.

After Chernobyl, Tanaka says he went to the Trade Ministry to report the cover-up he’d been involved in more than a decade earlier. The government refused to investigate and Hitachi denied his accusations, he said.

“They said, if Hitachi says they didn’t do it, then there’s no problem,” Tanaka said. “Companies don’t always tell the truth.”

Such is the integrity of the nuclear village...

kurisupisu

I can't tell what is farce ---- everything coming out of TEPCO, TEPCO lawyers, Central Govt Officials, Academic experts touring Fukushima saying everything is okay, and anyone who says they know what is going on in inside those reactors

or reality..

wanderlust

Good information, I had heard of this before, but not in so much detail. The level of complicity is breathtaking, unless you have worked within the system here and then it seems just like business as usual. We could ease back and depend upon he good nature of the corporations and powers that be to do the right thing.

I have already had a number of conversations with the pro-nuclear lobby on this, all maintaining that even with a disaster such as this factored in, nuclear energy is still the cheapest option - this is true when the govt/tepco are paying a cent on the dollar when it comes to compensation.

2 million irradiated, the price of a child's health, elderly immolating themselves, organic farmers suicide, the phsycological scars of children and adults shunned as nuclear refugees, the shame felt by those who left, the broken communities, young women from Fukushima rejected by prospective partners, the guilt of farmers selling their produce --- the list goes on and on.

But hey, we still get cheap electricity, no ---- nuclear energy is immoral, dirty, expensive and we can do better.

2 million irradiated, the price of a child's health, elderly immolating themselves, organic farmers suicide, the phsycological scars of children and adults shunned as nuclear refugees, the shame felt by those who left, the broken communities, young women from Fukushima rejected by prospective partners, the guilt of farmers selling their produce --- the list goes on and on.

All thanks to the fear mongering rants by the anti-nuclear mobs.

All thanks to the fear mongering rants by the anti-nuclear mobs.

No it's all thanks to TEPCO and JGovt. for dribbling out information like it's somehow better this way. Like a Mass exodus would have hurt the economy. So it's best to keep the people calm and give a positive spin on things like a cold shutdown is imminent.

No it's all thanks to TEPCO and JGovt. for dribbling out information like it's somehow better this way. Like a Mass exodus would have hurt the economy. So it's best to keep the people calm and give a positive spin on things like a cold shutdown is imminent.

Yep. I'm all for Mass exodus of millions resulting in secondary disaster. (sarcasm)

@BlueWitch "This post is 100% unbelievable. There is NO way a real Japanese person would post such lies and nonsense. I hope the moderator will do the right thing by removing this."

It is exaggerated just like most of your posts are mostly overly exaggerated. Japan is just like any other country, it has good and bad. It is not heaven like some anime fans like to believe, and it's not as bad as you like to claim.

Yep. I'm all for Mass exodus of millions resulting in secondary disaster. (sarcasm)

But living in an environment of Nuclear Fallout is a Disaster too. Right. Especially in the area ground zero.

But living in an environment of Nuclear Fallout is a Disaster too. Right. Especially in the area ground zero.

As far as I know, nobody is living in ground zero unless of course you count the workers working there as "living" there.

@star-viking

zichiDec. 01, 2011 - 06:36PM JST The plant was built to withstand a 7 point something quake, but on 3/11, the strength of the local quake was only 6 point something. Where'd you get the info on the local magnitude? Aparently local magnitude saturates at M6.5 and so can't be used above that.

I think zichi is talking about shindo, am I right? Shindo and magnitude are two different things.

@star-viking I am very sorry. I just read some of your previous posts. You sure know shindo/magnitude. I didn't mean to insult you. I thought you didn't know. Sorry...

wanderlust

@"exportexpert" - In truth the fuel melted through the bottom all the way and is now melting its way through the earths core eventually to emerge at what ever point is straight through the earth from Fukushima, which luckily might be just south of africa.

LOL - once it reaches the centre of the earth, if it even manages to get that far, it won't go anywhere else, other than being subject to dilution and circulation magma flows in the inner cores. Gravity at every point on this planet leads to the centre of the earth...

Wanderlust that was said tongue in cheek by the way.

@zichi - to follow up your post - Three months later, however, when TEPCO's cover-up of cracked equipment and other damage was exposed, Araki and Minami resigned. As a result, a second meeting to negotiate the details of the Rokkasho withdrawal never took place.

Then TEPCO Chairman Araki, who is currently an advisor to the utility, refused to be interviewed about the case, saying that his "memories (about it) are vague." Former TEPCO President Minami said that he "has no recollection" of the 2002 meeting, but added, "We were talking with METI about whether to withdraw from the reprocessing project, and I discussed it with Araki and (then Vice President and current Chairman) Katsumata."

Katsumata also refrained from saying whether the meeting had taken place, but said, "We had about five management meetings within our company about whether or not to go forth with reprocessing." Meanwhile, former METI official Hirose said, "I absolutely have no recollection."

Accept NO excuses from the elected official who cover up the tragedy. DO NOT VOTE FOR THEM.

zichiDec. 02, 2011 - 09:36AM JST

Star-viking,

The peak acceleration measured at Fukushima Daiichi was 0.561g (550 gal) in the horizontal direction and 0.308g (302 gal) in the vertical direction at Unit 2. This exceeded the design basis acceleration of 0.447g (438 gal) in the horizontal direction. The design basis maximum acceleration was also exceeded in units 3 and 5. According to the government of Japan, the probability for exceeding the design basis acceleration was in the range of 10-4 to 10-6 per reactor-year. The design basis maximum acceleration in the vertical direction was not exceeded in any of the units.

http://www.nei.org/resourcesandstats/documentlibrary/safetyandsecurity/reports/special-report-on-the-nuclear-accident-at-the-fukushima-daiichi-nuclear-power-station

Thanks for the update Zichi. I also see the report I linked at TEPCO is unavailable now...

Blair Herron,

I was talking about Shindo.

Ah, you mentioned "7 point something" and "6 point something". That confused me - I'm used to Shindo being expressed as 6 light and 6 heavy, etc.

Blair HerronDec. 02, 2011 - 09:44PM JST

@star-viking I am very sorry. I just read some of your previous posts. You sure know shindo/magnitude. I didn't mean to insult you. I thought you didn't know. Sorry...

No Probs Blair, I was not insulted at all - in fact, thanks for bringing the matter up for clarification.

I also see the report I linked at TEPCO is unavailable now...

Just add an 'l' at the end and it is still there...

http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/11040103-e.html