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Taiwan, Japan coast guards duel with water cannons

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Amongst all this, have either Taiwan or China offered to buy the islands? Just as a possible diplomatic solution?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

What if the Taiwanese flotilla runs into the Chinese flotilla?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@cabadaje

Buying the islands would recognizing that it is japanese territory. The Chinese and Taiwanese would never do that.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

cabadaje@

Taiwan and China know the history of those island real ownership. Amen.

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

Taiwan and China know the history of those island real ownership. Amen.

So does pretty much everyone else. They just don't agree with the conclusion that the islands belong to Japan. Historic ownership is less than meaningless in the modern world. Heck, China could offer to officially buy the islands back, and the rest of the world (including the vast majority of Japan) would shrug and go about their lives.

@ Darknuts: Yeah, I know that it would never happen, but I was wondering if China had at least made the attempt to resolve the issue with anything other than an angry demand. If nothing else, the rest of the world would have acknowledged that the attempt had been made.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I'm afraid it's all going to end in tears.

And possibly a brief exchange of fire.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The bad part is not going to happen when Japanese meet the Chinese or Taiwanese ships, it's when the Chinese and Taiwanese ships run into each other. If there's anything hotter than a dispute with Japan, it's a dispute with China and Taiwan over Taiwan.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Just about every country in SE and NE Asia has ongoing territorial disputes, most involve potential resources and of course some are trifling but in matters of national pride, trifles can take on grand significance. Japan has disputes with Russia, Korea, China and Taiwan. Russia has quite a few with China and on and on. The way a country deals with one negotiation certainly has bearing on how the other countries will deal with you. Offering to sell or buy seems an extremely unlikely scenario. If you buy it, you are admitting you dont own it (plus everyone may remember Alaska, some serious ROI for the US eventually). Logic and pragmatism are qualities rarely brought to bear in these disputes, particularly when the 2 sides lack trust. Japans recent troubles may reach a status quo and then stay reasonably calm until the next "incident" and things flare up, rinse & repeat.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

So if Taiwanese and Chinese boats hit and sink each other, will Japan be blamed?

6 ( +8 / -1 )

Taiwan should really shut up about islands being with their "rightful" owners. If they think that so much, maybe they should give their own island back to China, since they stole it from them.

3 ( +11 / -8 )

I thought Taiwanese and Japanese don't stab each other's backs because they are like brothers? Well... supposedly that's what I've been told..

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Probie Sep. 25, 2012 - 12:01PM JST

Taiwan should really shut up about islands being with their "rightful" owners. If they think that so much, maybe they should give their own island back to China, since they stole it from them.

Taiwan has their own arm forces. Unlike Japan, they will crawl and beg US to combat for them. The stakes are very high for Japan. Not only Taiwan but also North Korea, Russia and PRC want to settle with Japan for their old wounds. They are offended by Japan for changing text books and comfort women story. The problem with Japan is not getting along with any neighbors.

No one love Japan in Asia. They do not like PRC too however it does not like Japan. Japan has to behave like South Korean movie stars which are loved by all Asians including Russians.

-17 ( +3 / -20 )

Too bad that maturity or wisdom isn't sold in a bottle.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Flyfalcon

Taiwan has their own arm forces. Unlike Japan, they will crawl and beg US to combat for them. The stakes are very high for Japan. Not only Taiwan but also North Korea, Russia and PRC want to settle with Japan for their old wounds. They are offended by Japan for changing text books and comfort women story. The problem with Japan is not getting along with any neighbors.

Whether they have armed forces or not, has nothing to do with the point I made. Maybe you should re-read what I said. Because it makes more sense than what you just spouted.

6 ( +10 / -3 )

I wonder, are the Senkakus a part of America's security commitments to Taiwan? I would think not.

Chiang Kai Shek was pragmatic about the Daiyoutais with good reason. This kind of anti-Japan, anti-US, pro PRC rhetoric is typical of President Ma and his aspirations to return Taiwan to the control of the mainland, where his ancestors and his party originate from. Indeed, that being your agenda, these islands are a wonderful rallying point for that cause.

Which of course will mean Taiwan eventually agreeing to be absorbed by the PRC and submitting to CCP authority.

But it will be worth it! It will get the Daiyoutais back!

Best of luck to them.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@Probie

According your post, Taiwan has to shut up and give their Island back to China because it was stolen from them!

Taiwan is small it does not mean they have to be intimidated or bullied. They have their own armed forces, own currency, own legislation and own flag. Who cares what other people think or criticize them as non sovereign nation? It does not change their standing. Fishermen has been fishing there for a long time. Before three nations claiming for that Isles have reasonable quota of fish. Now Japan is more assertive and want to change the old rule. It is unacceptable for them. They are ready for combat if it is necessary.

Taiwan has native people with separate identity, custom and belief. That Island was not stolen from China as you said. After civil war, there were mass of migration from China. The point is not arguing history for pleasing other people. Truth is it has survived for many years. It will survive many more years. Talks is cheap and can not change anything. Action and commitment can change it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

"The ball is in Japan's court." Show some authority or lose everything.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@Flyfalcon

That still doesn't change the fact that the island of Formosa, was "originally" Chinese. And the Chinese still say it's theirs. The Taiwanese are the last people who can start saying stuff about what islands are the property of who.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Wouldn't be good if the Japanese Subs could use them as target practice!

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

What if the Taiwanese flotilla runs into the Chinese flotilla?

Taiwanese flotilla + mainland Chinese flotilla = pan-Chinese sinkilla

4 ( +6 / -2 )

@Probie

That article is regarding about Japan and Taiwan dispute about small Islets. I do not understand why do you want to complain about China owns Taiwan.It is off topic with current Issue. Whether you are happy or not, it does not change anything. If you are still not happy, you can tell that Singapore has many Chinese. It may be owned by China in history. How about Sanfransisco? There are more Chinese than Singapore. It may be owned by China in history too

The current topic is not related to your disscussion. You have to go other thread for your complaint. You ask Taiwan to shut up and you can not shut up for non related topic. It does not make sense!

-2 ( +4 / -7 )

Chiang Kai Shek was pragmatic about the Daiyoutais with good reason.

Chiang Kai Shek was not known to have said anything about the Daiyoutais. However, he did propose to the US a joint occupation/ administration of the Ryukyus (territories of the former Ryukyu Kingdom) with an eye for future independence from Japan during the Cairo Conference in 1943. And President Roosevelt did not seem to oppose the idea then.

From disclosed US document:

"During a private dinner with the Chiangs on the evening of November 23, President Roosevelt asked Chiang China's intentions regarding the Ryukyu Islands. According to the memorandum written by the Chinese side (Roosevelt's special assistant Harry Hopkins was present but did not apparently take notes), "The President referred to the question of the Ryukyu Islands and enquired more than once whether China would want the Ryukyus." To this, Chiang reportedly replied that "China would be agreeable to joint occupation of the Ryukyus by China and the United States and, eventually, joint administration by the two countries under the trusteeship of an international organization.""

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

joint occupation/ administration of the Ryukyus with an eye for future independence from Japan during the Cairo Conference in 1943.

And that's probably the origin of the UN trusteeship which covers the islands in dispute according to Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty:

"Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29deg. north latitude (including the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands).... Pending the making of such a proposal and affirmative action thereon, the United States will have the right to exercise all and any powers of administration, legislation and jurisdiction over the territory and inhabitants of these islands, including their territorial waters."

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority

And Japan did cede the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands according to the San Francisco Peace Treaty. As a result, the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands were regarded as foreign lands to the Japanese between 1945 to 1971. And Japanese who visited these islands during that period must have their Japanese passport stamped at the Ryukyu immigration.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

President Roosevelt did not seem to oppose the UN trusteeship

However, things started to change in 1954 when President Eisenhower made it clear in his State of Union Message that the U.S. intended to keep the Ryukyus/ Okinawa for an unlimited period of time:

"We shall maintain indefinitely our bases in Okinawa. I shall ask the Congress to authorize continued material assistance to hasten the successful con-clusion of the struggle in Indo-china. This assistance will also bring closer the day when the Associated States may enjoy the independence already assured by France. We shall also continue military and economic aid to the Nationalist Government of China."

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

President Eisenhower made it clear in his State of Union Message that the U.S. intended to keep the Ryukyus/ Okinawa for an unlimited period of time.

However, in 1972 Japan bought the administration rights (with no sovereignty attached) of the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands from the US with a sum of $650 million.

From Deception and Diplomacy: The US, Japan, and Okinawa

By Gavan McCormack

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Gavan-McCormack/3532

"the US side insisted that for this peculiar deal, Japan should pay; setting the terms for future base arrangements; in other words, the "reversion" was a buy-back. The US government insisted on the enormous sum of $650 million, used the term "price-tag" to apply to it, and insisted that most be in the form of a "lump sum" payment...

The Okinawan "reversion" was a "buyback" in which Japan insisted the asset it was buying remain in US hands, an arrangement that doubly violated the Japanese constitution both because it was premised on a lie and because it violated Article 9 in the most blatant way possible. Japan paid the US while insisting the US not return what it was paying for. It created two separate accounts, a secret one with the real figure entered and a public one, which referred to about half the real sum, and even that public figure was substantially false."

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Today, it's water cannon...

4 ( +4 / -0 )

tommorrow.. water balloons.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Japanese, Chinese, and Taiwanese ships all in the same area and they all don't like each other.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

In watching the video, the Japanese water cannon appeared to be more accurate and had longer range. Today water canons tomorrow supersoakers.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Dueling with water cannons? Sounds like an episode of Takeshi's Castle...

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Bring it on Taiwan you pussy ass Chinese send more ships

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

don't be surprised if they start electrically charging those water cannons. "myth busters"... it works.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just a water fight, nothing to see here, move on boys & girls.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

It's time for the US Navy to park a ship or two, or three, in the area and play referee!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

No one's throwing butyric acid yet?

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Female coastguard members were egged on by both sides to don white t-shirts throughout the international incident...

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Wet T-shirt contest. :P

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Dennis Bauer:

" What if the Taiwanese flotilla runs into the Chinese flotilla? "

For now, Taiwans government is foolish enough to do Pekings bidding, it seems. And for now. of course, the smiling Politbureau is happy to let them do that.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

China was trying to buy these islands but the owner refused to sell it to a Chinese.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Ironic that if Ishihara had not made such bold statements to buy and 'protect' the islands they would never be in such danger. Well, okay, to be fair, it's ironic if you're Ishihara -- the rest of us already knew what would happen.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

mikihouse: "China was trying to buy these islands but the owner refused to sell it to a Chinese."

If I'm not mistaken, under Japanese law, since Japan believes the islands to be theirs (despite having to buy them as "proof"), they could not be sold to non-Japanese nationals or their nations.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Nah, the real irony is that the Japanese government bought the islands because they knew that if Ishihara bought the islands, he would rub it in the face of the Chinese, and they wanted to avoid causing problems. But really, I suspect China doesn't really care particularly who they blame, as long as they get to blame Japan as a whole.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Hikozaemon. That's classic!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Taiwanese boats escorted by patrol ships sailed into waters around Tokyo-controlled islands.

In theory, they are controlled by Tokyo. In the reality, Taiwan and PRC come and go as they pleased. How on earth J government wasted tax payer money for purchasing that Islands. It is in name only. They better build the new infrastructure with purchasing money.

Taiwan is fishing as much as they can now. Their ancestors have been fishing there for centuries. In my concern, that Islands may be useless without fish. Mining exploration will take many years for making commercial return. At the end, WWIII may be caused by fishing dispute.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

They should settle this once and for all with a duel.... TO THE DEATH.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@WilliBSep. 25, 2012 - 06:33PM JST

For now, Taiwans government is foolish enough to do Pekings bidding, it seems. And for now. of course, the smiling Politbureau is happy to let them do that.

That conflict is nothing to do with Beijing bidding. Fishing industry has been lobbying for their interest. Public also concern about reliable fish stock. In the past, they can fish there with reasonable quota. Now Japan want to restrict their fishing rights. It is unacceptable for them. At the end, Taiwanese love fish more than Japanese!

3 ( +4 / -1 )

well, at least its a water fight and not a nuclear fight

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What about a soccer match? The winner gets these stupid islands. Meh.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Seamines would fix these kinds of illegal Chinese intrusions.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Now a wet t shirt contest! Now that would be some happy news! Maybe Japan, Taiwan, China all need to relax, smoke on a huge bong, get back to basics, we are only human, not worth killing each other over some stupid rocks in the sea!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Why don't they just play Battleship?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

EPIC WATER WARS FIGHT !!!!!!

" fully-armed elite coastguard personnel "

Semi-Automatic super soakers & water ballon grenade launchers are on stand by..........

I want to see an international water ballon fight with AKB48 & Smap singing in the background.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

let's see who has the bigger hose with higher pressure...

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Water pistols at 20 paces.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Should douse these losers with nihonshu - send them back to Taiwan drunk.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

smithinjapanSep. 25, 2012 - 07:03PM JST mikihouse: "China was trying to buy these islands but the owner refused to sell it to a Chinese." If I'm not mistaken, under Japanese law, since Japan believes the islands to be theirs (despite having to buy them >as "proof"), they could not be sold to non-Japanese nationals or their nations.

You're mistaken. Plenty of foreign individuals and business entities own property/land in Japan. You're also wrong in that the Japanese government's purchase of the 3 islands had nothiung to do with "proof" it was an act designed to circumvent Ishihara from building on them. And act that the J-govt saw would aggravate China, but in retrospect made no difference to China either way.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

mikihouse:

" China was trying to buy these islands but the owner refused to sell it to a Chinese. "

Even if he had sold the islands to the Chinese government, that would still not mean that that they are Chinese territory. That would only mean that China owns a few specs of land in Japan.

To turn them into Chinese territory, the two governments would have renegotiate their borders.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

All of what is happening with China, Taiwan, Korea, keeps the media off the real problems the gov't should be dealing with. The nuclear disaster, the reconstruction of Tohoku, the economy, the value of the yen.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

@ zichi - You're right, it does divert attention. And SK, Taiwan and China are both quite pleased to keep their own government's shortcomings off the agenda as well. Nothing like a riot of nationalism to hide behind.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I wonder, are the Senkakus a part of America's security commitments to Taiwan? I would think not.

An American official recently said that they were.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Water in this case is Stoking the Flames.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

japan should not give any charity to neither china and taiwan , if japan is weak with china this time , china then is going to bullying japan in another way . i feel so unfair that as a stronger neighbor come to me and say < our ancestors were hiding in your back yard to deliver shit there , so your property is my , and if i do not try to take it back i am fault with my ancestors . LOL . japan should just give their stool back to both china and taiwan , to make it even because their ancestors ....,

0 ( +1 / -1 )

A little more escalation of conflicts with China, Koreas would be helpful for Japanese domestic politics.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Other posters here have noted the complete absurdity of Taiwan making any sort of claim in this issue, and I'm just going to continue to build on that theme.

It should be noted first, however, that it isn't the actual Taiwanese government pursuing this silliness. It's regular old citizens. Which suggests not-to-subtly that this little flotilla of would-be admirals, as well as the riots and looting of Japanese properties in China, are precisely why angry mobs aren't really the best place to look for foreign policy decisions.

With that said, that ANY Taiwanese would make territorial claims against ANYONE is preposterous, considering Taiwan is currently party to one of -- if not THE -- biggest territorial sovereignty debates in East Asia. Mainland China claims Taiwan for it own, while Taiwan claims not only its independence, but also sovereignty over all of Mainland China, a dance that is backed by billions of US dollars in military buildup on both sides.

To even pretend to engage in a shouting match with Japan over sovereignty over the Senkakus via the pre-war or pre-20th Century boundaries argument is to effectively admit that Mainland China's claim over Taiwan is legitimate. To argue with Japan over ownershp of the Senkakus is to effectively admit defeat for Taiwanese independence.

Meanwhile, both China and Taiwan are practically tripping over one another to avoid actually breaching Japan's territorial waters around the Senkakus as defined by international laws and conventions, which in and of itself is as implicit an admission that claims to ownership are spurious as one can imagine.

It needs to be stated without equivocation that neither Taiwan nor China cared one whit about these islands until possible oil reserves were discovered in 1968. And even then, very little was said or done to address their sudden change of heart until talk of nationalizing the islands began in Tokyo. For the better part of 50 years, the ROC and PRC were too busy hurling nationalistic rhetoric and promises of fiery retribution across the Straits.

Naked greed and opportunism expressed through the vilest forms of intimidation and economic blackmail is what this all is.

Not exactly the stuff of which great nations are made, I'd wager.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Lets have the top Politician from each country fight it out for the islands.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Lfragin: Since the day JP surrendered to ROC to end WWII, these islets belonged to Taiwan. All other argue is simply nonsense.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Let's see if Japan dare to send their coast guard to duel and spray with their water cannons against the Russian.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The Chinese government is laughing when both of them fighting until exhaustion! Until then Chinese marine commandos will take over the island!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I used to play with water a lot when I was young too ..............

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Lfragin: Since the day JP surrendered to ROC to end WWII, these islets belonged to Taiwan. All other argue is simply nonsense.

Not sure what the papers are saying in your part of the world, but to pretty much everyone else, Taiwan isn't even part of the discussion.

Let's see if Japan dare to send their coast guard to duel and spray with their water cannons against the Russian.

Why? Do the Russians have some sort of advanced super-soaker technology we haven't heard of?

The Chinese government is laughing when both of them fighting until exhaustion! Until then Chinese marine commandos will take over the island!

Yeah, but people will still be laughing at the Chinese. Think about it: Chinese commandos take the island.

So what? There aren't any people in danger there. There isn't any infrastructure that anyone cares about to destroy. Neither tactically nor strategically is there anything that ground troops are capable of doing that is going to affect the current field situation one way or another. The Japanese boats aren't going to leave. New supplies aren't going to be arriving, let alone extra troops. Taking an uninhabited island isn't much of an accomplishment, and there is no immediate reason to take it back. Eventually, the commandos, unable to continue feeding themselves, unable to communicate with China (signal jamming), and basically spending the entire time preparing for a counter-attack that will never come, are either going to surrender or get complacent (or weak enough) to be simply picked up with little to no danger.

This isn't a situation that can be solved by military conquest. It can only be solved through diplomatic channels. This is precisely why China doesn't have the respect of the global players; China simply doesn't think beyond the use of force. Heck, even its economic policies are not much more than an extension of its military policies. If China wants to play with the big boys...first it has to grow up.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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