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Tokyo to ban sales of incest comic to minors

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It should say banned. For all. I am all for free speech but these things are sold in combinis. They can be viewed by anyone. There should be specialty stores that sell this.

0 ( +17 / -17 )

This is clearly a No brainer. As to why they waited so long is beyond me.

7 ( +15 / -8 )

Seriously now, what is wrong with Japan and it's need of watching others have sex? All pornographic materials should be band from children! It's a no brainer and shouldn't even be a topic of discussion!

-9 ( +10 / -19 )

I swear, Japan is one of the most sexually frustrated nations on the planet. They have one of the most open porn cultures in the world: It's NOT covered up, it's NOT hidden in the stores, and people will frequently stand there and read it as if they were reading the newspaper. The virginity rate in Japan is crazy high compared to other countries. Then, when these people go out into society, it's like they can't control themselves. I don't really know of any other country where being molested on the train is a daily concern for young schoolgirls.

17 ( +26 / -9 )

This must be another western attack on Japanese cultural heritage of incest and child porn it's long been a tradition that should be listed as a world heritage, along with racism and a unique view of history.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

So, it's okay of you're an adult? What weirdos.

-3 ( +13 / -16 )

Who knew this was even a thing?

3 ( +7 / -4 )

The possession of pornography involving children is not illegal

this cant possibly be true. what reason could they have for keeping possession legal?

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Good move, as for incest it is a common theme in Porn worldwide.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Incest is wrong full phucking stop.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It's a cultural thing, uniquely Japaese. Available a conveniently located convenience store.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

This article should have run 20 years ago! All developed countries should have laws preventing that by now.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

The minors are save, wait there is the Internet!

3 ( +6 / -3 )

A panel of experts for Tokyo Metropolitan Government has reached the decision...

It took a panel of experts to figure this one one... omg

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

that someone would even publish this is crazy.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

In some places in this weird society incest is accepted as being normal, but incest as we know should not even be for sale in magazine form to kids or adults, Japan does have some weird almost sick perversions that need to be addressed.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

Who reads that crap? What publisher thinks this is okay literature? This is the kind of crap that breed sexual deviants who grope people on trains and kidnaps small children?

0 ( +8 / -8 )

What I don't understand is why they still bother with the mosaic censorship, considering how extreme / wild / perverted some of the porn produced in Japan is. It's like they drew a line, then just jumped as far over it as possible.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Sorry, but anybody that finds this kind of stuff arousing is sick and needs to seek therapy!

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

What's really redeeming is a former famous child photographer, whom shall remain nameless, had a change of heart and has been the forerunner is getting both erotic literature of children and erotic photos completely banned. Japan 80's was a place of high quality where one could read both quality manga and watch quality anime. I would love to see a return to those times.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

What abt manga on internet???

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It's not the minors who are responsible for this stuff. what a topic for a comic.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

It's child porn it should be banned for everyone.

-4 ( +10 / -14 )

From all of the disapproving minus counts on people who agree that this type of comic should be banned, at least a couple of people people reading this thinks this kind of stuff is okay..

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

@magnet... the reason for the censoring is a lot of the porn is fake. I watched one being made during Sex ed 101 in college. Fake yet real looking body parts, fake boobs if the real ones don't bounce enough. Try it for yourself! Get a program that removes the censoring.

@gogogo I completely agree that child porn should be banned. But the demand is too strong.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

There are some awkward things here regarding media and exposure and availability to children. My 5 yr old is finally becoming bored with shouting "BOOBIES" every time we pass the magazine rack in a conbini. The fairly explicit covers are right at his eye level. Hard to explain to him what the office lady or nurse is doing. Take a look today when you pop in to buy that cold beverage and imagine you are 115cm. tall.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

I know certain people HATE this stuff, but these types of manga, especially ero-manga, are generally an alternative outlet for people who would otherwise go out and attack REAL women and children!

-5 ( +8 / -13 )

Developing those values in the community have taken longer than expected .

Now there needs to some understanding of the rampant misogyny running through the culture and just how unevolved that is.

...

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Great. Tokyo has a ban. Now what about the rest of Japan?

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Clearly a rather large number of deviants on these isles!

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Hrm, people look up the definition of "incest", the most common form is among siblings. Incest is NOT restricted to one party being underage.

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Really offended by the manga mags sitting out on the shelves by my ATM, and also facing the sidwalk for anyone to have to see. I have figured out where to park my bike so I glance at sports mags and to avert my eyes at the ATM. Feels pretty weird. These sex mags should be in separate stores, I agree. I wish they would go away, but people keep buying them, so the industry marches on, shame notwithstanding.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

It is not uncommon to see adults on trains reading manga that would be deemed risque in other societies.

Risque? I think we can all agree (except maybe overchan whose comment frankly scares me) that this stuff is way beyond just "risque".

Cricky - I got the joke, even if someone else didnt :) !

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The incest thing is out of control. Seriously, this country has a problem. I don't even know what's going on any more.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Firstly, this kind of material should be out of sign and under restricted control. Secondly, the government should ban all material that promoted under age sexuality i.e. “School uniform”. Let look after our children has and give them a good start in life.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Magnet

It's like they drew a line, then just jumped as far over it as possible.

That is a bang on description!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Ban it for all!

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

Funny thing about porn, it's a fantasy. Now expose a person young enough and long enough to a fantasy, they'll never want to deal with reality. On the opposite end, treat a person or expose their kind to a future of being dealt with in extremes either pedestaling them as object of desire or an object of subjugation and you'll have two groups of people who want nothing to do with each other outside of a necessity of social status and resource....

Japan's population decline and sexual frustration issues are based on in this issue.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Manga images, while they might be mere drawings, can be considered pornographic under internationally shared norms, said Hiromasa Nakai, spokesman for the Japan committee for UNICEF.

It is hardly shared norms. The purpose of "Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography" was to protect children from exploitation. https://treaties.un.org/doc/source/RecentTexts/iv-11c_eng.htm

Article 2. (c) Child pornography means any representation, by whatever means, of a child engaged in real or simulated explicit sexual activities or any representation of the sexual parts of a child for primarily sexual purposes.

The definition of a Child is written here. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UN_Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

UN Convention on the Rights of the Child

Article 1 For the purposes of the present Convention, a child means every human being below the age of eighteen years unless under the law applicable to the child, majority is attained earlier.

A child must be a real human being, whose exploitation must be prohibited. In manga, no real child is involved, and no right of any child is violated or exploited. So, manga does not fall in the definition of child pornography.

You cannot change the meaning of a legal term for a specific clause from the rest of the treaty. If you include an imaginary character in the definition of a child in the Child Right Convention, you also have to protect the right to receive education, right to live with parents and so on of that imaginary character.

I do not support creating "a crime with no victim" here.

7 ( +13 / -6 )

Sometimes Japanese people can be very creepy. I don't understand how this kind of stuff is allowed to exist in the first place.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

oh FINALLY! But, honestly, it should be banned for both young and adults alike. Some hentai (and even milder forms..) is definitely terribly twisted! I am all for imagination and fantasy..but come on!

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

messed up culture

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

ch3cho - 2c states "...any representation....of a child......or any representation of the sexual parts of a child....."

As I interpret representation it means to represent - so a drawing is a representation.

But aside from that - the ubiquitous tacky public displays of printed erotica of all types, certainly degrades the country's image in the eyes of many - locals and o.s. visitors.

When the emperor/empress visited my city a while back, the view from their 5 star hotel included the garish distant signs of love hotels and soaplands. The "naughty" places were persuaded to "switch off" for the night. If adult sensibilities can be demeaned by pink lights, then I believe childrens sensibilities can be assaulted by the open display of erotic material(drawn or otherwise), making them the victims.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Eww.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

browny1May. 14, 2014 - 04:00PM JST

As I interpret representation it means to represent - so a drawing is a representation.

It is representation. But the issue is representation of whom? You have to identify the child represented and prove she is younger than 18. This is the procedure in usual, photo or video, child pornography case. But you cannot identify the child in manga for she does not exist. You cannot bring her to court for testimony that the drawing indeed represents her and that she is younger than 18. Manga is not representation of a child, but a representation of an imagination.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

ch3cho - Sorry - I don't agree. Article 2c clearly states "....representation, by whatever means, of a child..."

It does not allude to the necessity of identifying the child represented.

I take your point, but I can't see the said article supporting it in the way you want it to.

And my idea of the victim of porn in the case of drawn child images, is not any one individual child that may or may not exist, but the state of childhood itself, which should be able to be free of the licentious demands of adults, as it cannot easily defend itself.

Let adults porn adults.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

browny1May. 14, 2014 - 06:06PM JST

For your reference, here is the US definition of child pornography.

18 USC 2256: Definitions for chapter

(8) "child pornography" means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where-

(A) the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;

(B) such visual depiction is a digital image, computer image, or computer-generated image that is, or is indistinguishable from, that of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or

(C) such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct.

Manga does not fall in any of the US definition.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Why do posters here keep talking about child-porn, strangers, rape when the topic is Incest.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

ch3cho - As you said it doesnt fall into the US definition.

But I was referring to the article you provided from the United Nations, which I believe through it's wording does cover manga -"...... any representation, by whatever means....."

That's all.

And I explicitly stated who I believe the victims are - and it's not the drawings.

it's ME - it's called a discussion on a closely related topic.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

CH3CHO,

Manga does fall in subsection (8)(C), here identifiable minor can also mean a depiction created in picture or publication that is computer-generated which most of these comics were drawn on graphic designer programs. Identifiable minor can mean the depictions of characters made to believe as underage or in circumstance that can be identified as underage in committed lewd acts in sexually explicit conduct.

Basically most of the manga in circulation.

You will not find these being sold legally to minors in the US. There must be warning labels and requirement of ID of 18yo or over to purchase said type of comics or manga which adult book stores and comic book stories would have readily made available to the public of 18yo or above.

This is unique to Japan as it is part of Japanese sick and diseased mentally on the fantasy of having sex with minors. Its all over Japan. Kiddy 2nd hand underwear/uniform stores. Maid cafe often hiring 18yo and under. Showing off young teenage girls in sexually charged swim wear post on billboards, ads, and generic magazines...etc.

I can go on forever. Its a general sickness and obsession on exploiting children and the immature that I just don't get why Japanese can tolerate such existence in their society. Even the school girl's sailor uniform is highly suggestive in its short length.

Its just outrageous.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Great, progress! Next move to ban sex scenes with minors and rape scenes in manga.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Another blow against free speech ... sigh.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

Kazuaki ShimazakiMAY. 14, 2014 - 09:24PM JST Another blow against free speech ... sigh.

Free speech at what cost? Where are your priorities!?

Being able to look at scenes of incest in comics, or the protection of children to being exposed to such content and developing unhealthy notions of sex and relationships. Some forms of Japanese manga comics are not healthy forms of sex education. We have way above the average number of sexual deviants in this country as it is.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I do not understand why the word incest (sexual activity within family members) is used, while it has no kind meaning of meaning it involves minor.

These manga are porn pedophile material. How can that be legal?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

I do not support creating "a crime with no victim" here.

I'm not entirely convinced there's no victim, here.

These magazines sexually glorify incestuous (OFTEN involving minors, the Japanese do love their little sister fantasies) situations. When your audience is sexually frustrated and probably have no experience in what they're reading, all you're doing is adding fuel to the fire of their pent up frustrations. They gain from their reading the idea that incestuous situations (again, USUALLY involving minors, and specifically young girls) are sexually exciting.

I know this is a bit of a chicken-and-egg scenarion, but the Japanese porn industry is either causing or reinforcing the epidemic of sexual frustrations and train molestations.

Manga is not representation of a child, but a representation of an imagination.

That seems pretty straw-graspy to me.

In all honesty, I'm not even sure it should be illegal. In fact, I would go as far as to say it probably shouldn't be illegal. HOWEVER, it DOES need to be less readily available and advertised in every conbini in the country. I mean, good God, they might as well have glowing neon signs saying "HEY! HEY! HEY EVERYBODY! THIS IS PORN! YEAH, WE GOT PORN HERE!"

These things need to be limited to the 18+ sections of manga shops. Which, by the way, are JOKES. Almost every one I've been to has had nearly no covering, no door, hardly any walls. It's way, way, way too available, to a point where it's unhealthy.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

For me, the subject is sick and demented, but it is manga, and incest porn is not illegal in any country as far as I know (lots of that stuff in the west as well, and I'm talking about real porn, not manga). However, anything with sexual content should be restricted to adults only, so this but a small step. As for child porn manga, I definitely believe this should be banned, but that is still not being addressed here in Japan. One more thing, even though I rarely agree with Tmarie, why only in Tokyo???

1 ( +2 / -1 )

a) none of it is aimed at children b) it's usually not incest, the "near incest" like stepsister sexy situations c) they'll change the stories to being about a robot maid in a wheelchair whose secretly the childhood friend of a fox spirit, then Tokyo will complain about that.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Seriously now, what is wrong with Japan and it's need of watching others have sex? >

Yeah! I ummm.....hate watching errr... hot chicks having sex.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Free speech at what cost? Where are your priorities!? Being able to look at scenes of incest in comics, or the protection of children to being exposed to such content and developing unhealthy notions of sex and relationships. Some forms of Japanese manga comics are not healthy forms of sex education. We have way above the average number of sexual deviants in this country as it is.

I find it stunning that having finally (more or less) gotten to free speech after so many years of human history, Westerners are now denigrating its worth. Free speech is worth fighting for - and to denigrate certain kinds of speech and using it as an excuse to limit it is the beginning of reversion to a very slippery slope.

Here are my rules ... to get me to even consider restricting free speech, I had better at least see some direct harm involved. Thus, for example, I can accept a ban on using real children in pornography, because real humans are involved. Heck, for this reason, I can even accept a ban on using real humans in pornography, to the extent that real humans are harmed in its production.

As for using what are really pixels and / or ink (I mean, look at the size of the eyes in an average Japanese manga - to include the type under discussion; are they really even meant to represent humans? :-) ), this factor does not exist.

And poorly provable hypotheses between unfavorably viewed literature and various alleged activities are not a good enough reason for limitation. Basically, it is a place for imputing unfavorable results to things that are subjectively "ick" to you. You don't like violent films or games, you try to ban it by suggesting links to violence. Same thing here. It is ick, and little more. Free speech is too important to be restricted based on ick.

Finally, a number of posters here have mentioned the chikan problem. Now, first, the act aside, the interest in teenage girls that are just beginning to put out those eggs is really biological more than anything else - it is part of the natural human desire to find fertility. It is no secret that the legal age of marriage has been raised several years only quite recently in human history, and in the West, people are relatively comfortable with teenagers having sex with each other.

Second, people are less willing, for some reason, to note that while Japan does have a chikan problem, it has relatively low rapes. Now, I'm sure people would fudge that there are unreported cases, but they say there are more unreported than reported cases in other countries so let's not run too far with that argument. So if we must say that all these Japanese manga are having some influence on chikan rates, then we must also accept that they are lowering the amount of rapes - you can't have your cake and eat it too. And while chikan is undoubtedly an unpleasant experience, I think most girls will be willing to trade a score of such experiences if it means they will avoid being raped.

Vast Right-Wing Conspirator has it well said.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Note that merely the sale is banned, possession is not neither is non-commercial distribution.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

So they are restricting the manga to adults but the anime and games are ok?

The "chikan" problem in Japan would be covered by rape laws in many other countries. If you consider this, the rape is not low in Japan. If a chikan did the same in the us to a school girl, he would be going to jail and may not come out since he would be consider the lowest form of life in jail by other inmates.

Considering how women are treated in Japan, I take Japan's rape statistics with a very large grain of salt.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Back on topic please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

highball7May. 14, 2014 - 08:11PM JST

Manga does fall in subsection (8)(C). Identifiable minor can mean the depictions of characters made to believe as underage or in circumstance that can be identified as underage in committed lewd acts in sexually explicit conduct.

Just to clarify the US definition.

18 USC 2256: Definitions for chapter

(9) "identifiable minor"-

(A) means a person-

(i) (I) who was a minor at the time the visual depiction was created, adapted, or modified; or (II) whose image as a minor was used in creating, adapting, or modifying the visual depiction; and

(ii) who is recognizable as an actual person by the person's face, likeness, or other distinguishing characteristic, such as a unique birthmark or other recognizable feature; and

(B) shall not be construed to require proof of the actual identity of the identifiable minor.

Imaginary characters in managa are not "identifiable minors" for they are not recognizable as actual persons.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Increasing people's awareness of those around them? This has to be a small step in the right direction.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I wonder why ANYONE would want to draw or read incest comics. What is wrong with these people?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

For anyone who considers this kind of material appropriate, think very carefully about the future of this industry and what it could lead to. For instance computer generated imagery would not be considered " sexual exploitation of minors" as no actual children are involved in creation of such imagery. However this kind of media is evolving at an increasingly realistic rate, take "avatar" or "terminator" graphics and apply them to child pornography. This manga could and most likely naturally would evolve to applying such technology to "legal child incest manga".... Then say one day you are walking past a store and you see a comic book that uses this kind of new technology ...essentially depicting a real life child in a sexualy engaging situation. However no laws are being broken because the image is just a fabrication (computer generated)....then you look closer and the child in that image resembles your own 5 year old girl...maybe not identical but a clear likeness...then you take it further and you notice the person looking at the material is your local kindergarten teacher... Now keep in mind they are not doing anything illegal because no actual children are being used to create this image. Morally however it would be no different than that costumer fantasizing about your own 5 year old child. Real or not real...child pornography and insest should not be justified for any reason in todays society. Only reason it remains so in japan is because the industry is allowed to exist and remain profitable. Extremely unethical and wrong from any perspective IMO.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Imaginary characters in managa are not "identifiable minors" for they are not recognizable as actual persons.

@CH3

Next thing you'll be telling me Hello Kitty isn't real.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

TokyoDimanMAY. 15, 2014 - 01:47PM JST For anyone who considers this kind of material appropriate, think very carefully about the future of this industry and what it could lead to. For instance computer generated imagery would not be considered " sexual exploitation of minors" as no actual children are involved in creation of such imagery. However this kind of media is evolving at an increasingly realistic rate, take "avatar" or "terminator" graphics and apply them to child pornography. This manga could and most likely naturally would evolve to applying such technology to "legal child incest manga".... >

Seems like you have given this a great deal of thought?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Incest comics banned to minors. Makes sense but not strong enough. All of Japan should follow this law. All sexual comics should be adults only and NEVER involve kids. That is a well established opinion from westerners here. I must say that in 6 years of living in Tokyo I rarely saw people on the train with that material obviously visible. I DID SEE many sexy scantily clad women in sports newspaper adds.

Where are the parents views in all this in Japan? Do mothers peruse their kids manga in their bedrooms to look for such topics? Are parental controls on the phones and computers strong? In the US they are mediocre at best. And as another poster said INSEST sites are popular worldwide. Huge in the US. That is a topic for another day, but this is a small victory in Tokyo that will have consequences and reverberations outside of the capital. There are many in Japan who realize how these things affect kids and hopefully we will see further action. The fact that most shops have plastic seals on the mags in most combinis was a huge move years ago,

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Where are the parents views in all this in Japan?

It seems to me that most people in Japan just assume that males will read porn, and do so frequently, so there isn't too much shock when it's found.

The fact that most shops have plastic seals on the mags in most combinis was a huge move years ago,

And the next step is to install flip-down plastic covers in front of them, and finally to move them to where they belong, the 18+ sections of bookstores.

The problem is, though, that porn (or, at least nudity) is in EVERYTHING here. I can't count the number of times I've opened a seemingly benign magazine only to find myself face to face with several women in compromising positions. I distinctly remember an advertisement for some kind of coffee which was, literally, ONLY a topless 40-something women against a gray background. That's it. Just a topless 40-something woman and their tag line. "Drink our coffee, cuz we got a topless lady around your age right here for ya."

-2 ( +0 / -1 )

The story writer and publisher should be sent to mental health institute. Those peoples are sick.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The possession of pornography involving children is not illegal, but its creation and distribution has recently been criminalised.

My Jaw dropped.

Ok, I think there mixed ideas here, I think that all kinds of pornography should not be exposed to minors, but let's say that there is a manga/comic involving incest (as a relationship, only hinting) should be banned to minors? to ban that is like to ban gay relationships in comics, don't you think? (Let's consider "Angel Sanctuary", which depicts a incestuous relationship but not sexual content is explicit, only hinted).

The problem is that Incestuous relationships more often than not are depicted sexually, and to add with drawings of a minor, so that's like breaking more than one rule.

I'm intrigued why is this now, and only for Tokyo, this shouldn't have take that long! I'm amazed how all kinds of pornography is available to Children, even if they use pixelated images or an "ink blot", it is still very sexually charged and that means unnecessarily early exposure to children.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes of course no one support or thinks that abuse of kids is right. No healthy adult. And no culture does either. To restrict images and content does NOT stop people from being twisted or bad. That comes from their background and their own personalities. Happy and mature people who have fulfilling lives to not abuse. Manga is not going to trigger abuse. It is a release based on fantasy. Sadly most modern westerners seem unable to determine fact from fantasy again due to what I consider the huge wave of cheap, shallow media that promotes deviance and tries to make it "normal' Rather than blame Japan, look at home for ways to improve..and the idiocy of censorship is just nuts. Art has had to deal with it for hundreds of years and this is no different. I am glad there are as many who understand and are comfortable and relaxed with Japan's largely very mature culture in this regard.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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