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U.S. F-15 fighter crashes 115 kms east of Okinawa

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The Chronic,

Prove that China and North Korea will attack Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Fukuoka or Naha anytime soon. Are their missiles trained at these populated centers? For what reasons? Explain. And how would the U.S. Marines respond to such attacks?

Unless you prove and explain that, I wouldn't buy your theory why the U.S. military presence must be maintained in Okinawa at this superfluous scale. Remember that I'm not saying "all U.S. forces" must be moved out of Okinawa NOW.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

voiceofokinawa said: The Chronic misses the most important point of my posting above. And that is that the Philippine forces did not take over the whole functions of the two U.S. bases to make up "reduced" deterrent resulted from the withdrawal of U.S. forces. ............ You've missed the entire point. The Philippines don't have the Chinese or the North Koreans breathing down their throats like the Japanese do. SO the USA pulling out of the Philippines didn't make much of a strategic difference in the bigger picture.

Move all US Forces to Guam and that will delay any response the US needs to react to any threat to Japan from China or North Korea. Why can't you grasp this point????????

US Forces are needed in Japan / Okinawa until China / North Korea are no longer threats or Japan can defend herself which is not the case right now.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The Chronic,

The Chronic may be right when he says there are no thriving businesses in the Subic Bay Freeport Zone. I have never been there to confirm it. But one can have a glimpse of what has become of Subic Naval Base now by clicking open the homepage of Subic Bay Metropolitan Authority.

The Chronic misses the most important point of my posting above. And that is that the Philippine forces did not take over the whole functions of the two U.S. bases to make up "reduced" deterrent resulted from the withdrawal of U.S. forces.

I don't have much to say about former U.S. Clark Air Force Base. Today, it's become "the site of Clark International Airport, the Clark Freeport Zone and the Air Force City of the Philippine Air Force."

0 ( +1 / -1 )

voiceofokinawa said: When the U.S. returned Naval Base Subic Bay and Clark Air Force Base to the Philippines, did the Philippine military took them over? The two former U.S. bases are now thriving commercial districts with no traces of the military. In other words, these two U.S. bases were superfluous as far as the defense of the nation was concerned.

........ Funny..I guess you have never been there...thriving businesses??? sure... thriving brothels and bars full of lowlifes, and whores on every street corner! Hope the same happens in Okinawa..may just be worth a visit then! LOL!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

ka_chan,

When the U.S. returned Naval Base Subic Bay and Clark Air Force Base to the Philippines, did the Philippine military took them over? The two former U.S. bases are now thriving commercial districts with no traces of the military. In other words, these two U.S. bases were superfluous as far as the defense of the nation was concerned.

U.S. bases in Okinawa, especially those of the Marines, are training facilities for troops to come and train on a six-month rotating basis. So some pundits rightly call them staging posts for the troops to be deployed abroad. Gulf wars and Afghan wars attest to their claim sure enough. This is nothing but an irony because Japanese taxpayers shoulder 74% of the operating costs of these bases, naively believing they are necessary for the defense of Japan.

Does ka_chan think the JSDF will take over all this function from the U.S. Marines when they leave and therefore that the bases must remain in Okinawa on the same scale as they are today?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It is unlikely the the bases will ever go away. Tokyo may someday stop SOFA and the US would probably leave but at that point Japan would have to have a full military which would mean that the bases would remain. It may be filled with Japanese troops but the problems would probably remain.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

//Without America, you would speak German/ Russian/ Chinese/ Martian etc language"

But, but, but ....English is a Germanic language. But, I digress. Surely the answer is to stop rotating the US personnel from base to base, they can reside for five years,then apply for Japanese citizenship, foreign military problem solved.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The truth (and this is probably what sticks in the Okinawan's craw more than anything else) is that the Okinawan's desires will NEVER, EVER, UNTIL THE END OF TIME be more important than Japan's desires. The U.S. is there at JAPAN'S behest and they would have to leave if JAPAN decided to terminate the Defense Agreement. Okinawa has ZERO say in international relations because IT IS NOT A COUNTRY. It's just a prefecture unlucky enough to be ideally positioned for defending against multiple foreign threats. Sovereign nations do NOT terminate agreements with foreign sovereign nations just because some piddling local government in that foreign sovereign nation gets a bug up its butt over something.

Excellent ! In other words, "who gives a flying shit about opinions of Okinawans"? Your attitude to locals is wonderful. And you keep calling yourself as "protectors of Japan"?! With "friends" like you, who needs enemies?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Fadamor,

To sum up what you say, it's this: (1) U.S. forces are stationed in Okinawa "at JAPAN's behest" and (2) Okinawa, a mere locality of Japan, has no say about their destiny brought about by international agreements between two sovereign nations.

As for (1): Did the U.S. forces occupy Okinawa in 1945 "at Japan's behest" and have they remained there as occupation forces to this day also at Japan's behest? LOL!

Already in the mid 19th century, Commodore Matthew C. Perry, who force-opened dormant Japan's door to the world, recommended then U.S. President Millard Fillmore to occupy Okinawa because of its strategic location for the U.S. to advance to Asia. That imperialistic scheme and design of the U.S. came true in 1945 as the result of U.S. victory in WW II.

As for (2): True, Okinawa is a mere locality of Japan with no say about the nation's foreign policy. But, look, Okinawa used to be a sovereign nation until 1879, independently signing trade and friendship treaties with the Great Powers of the 19th century. So there's always a possibility for Okinawa to demand independence if its voice is kept suppressed as it is.

The post WW II Japan-U.S. relations are like those between puppet and puppeteer. The more the puppeteer hones his skills of puppetry, the more natural becomes the puppet's every movement on stage.

So when Fadomor says "Okinawa has ZERO say in international relations because IT IS NOT A COUNTRY," all we hear is nothing but the puppeteer's authoritative command and not the puppet's.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

If grandma had a dick she would be grandpa. A proverb. When local people urge you to leave, just leave. No need to invent any sort of self-justification.

The truth (and this is probably what sticks in the Okinawan's craw more than anything else) is that the Okinawan's desires will NEVER, EVER, UNTIL THE END OF TIME be more important than Japan's desires. The U.S. is there at JAPAN'S behest and they would have to leave if JAPAN decided to terminate the Defense Agreement. Okinawa has ZERO say in international relations because IT IS NOT A COUNTRY. It's just a prefecture unlucky enough to be ideally positioned for defending against multiple foreign threats. Sovereign nations do NOT terminate agreements with foreign sovereign nations just because some piddling local government in that foreign sovereign nation gets a bug up its butt over something.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

if and once America leaves, there is NO way that Japan can defend itself if there were an imminent attack on its shores, especially if there were a ground invasion. People like you never think about the possibilities, only about the actual moment. If the US were not here in Japan, I think China or North Korea would have attacked a long time ago. Will it ever happen, who knows, but people like you would rather take the chance.

If grandma had a dick she would be grandpa. A proverb. When local people urge you to leave, just leave. No need to invent any sort of self-justification.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Hi, Noliving:

I've read similar comments to yours on other threads not once but many times. The U.S. military is stationed in Okinawa because the island is well located strategically . You say Okinawa is "within striking distance of China, Taiwan, Honshu island of Japan, and South Korea."

But your answer reminds me of a squatter who answers, to the question of why he squats there, by saying he likes the place because it's near downtown shops, convenient stores, parks and the like where he can find many garbage cans with enough leftover lunches to fill his stomach.

Can't you see farce and absurdity in your answer?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Why on Earth is such a huge base on such a small island?

Very easy Bertie! Because of its strategic location. It is basically within striking distance of China, Taiwan, Honshu island of Japan, and South Korea. You then factor in its ability to protect the vital sea trade lane that runs past it......

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Most of the troops stationed there are offensive forces that are deployed to South East Asia and Middle East. I'm sorry but harsh fact is that the US couldn't really give a crap about Japan.

Not "offensive" offensive, is what the point that was being made. (Different pronunciation....sarcasm)

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Thomas Anderson

Most of the troops stationed there are offensive forces that are deployed to South East Asia and Middle East. I'm sorry but harsh fact is that the US couldn't really give a crap about Japan.

Goes to show how little, if anything, you know of the US units stationed on Okinawa or what they're missions are. The only deployable force stationed on Okinawa is the Third Marine Expeditionary Force (III MEF), which includes the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit (31st MEU) and 1st Marine Aircraft Wing (1st MAW). The III MEF's mission is to maintain a permanent and constant forward presence in Japan and in the East Asia AOR to promote regional stability. This is precisely why it is rarely ever included in the USMC's deployment cycle to the Middle East. Since the 70's, the Marines have deployed only twice to conduct combat ops, to the Persian Gulf/Kuwait in Nov 1998 to Feb 1999 for Operation Southern Watch and Operation Desert Fox, and to Iraq in September 2004 to March 2005 for Operation Iraqi Freedom. As for deployments within the East Asia AOR, they have all been humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) ops to the Philippines, Myanmar, and Indonesia except for one short peacekeeping mission in 2000 to East Timor to support the Australian forces as they transferred command to the UN. I also think the grateful people of Japan's Tohoku region, particularly those in Sendai, would vehemently disagree with you on your assessment of the Marines on Okinawa as a combat force that only deploys to the ME or SE Asia and that is not concerned with protecting and assisting the people of its host nation.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Bleuren,

Thanks.

No problem.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Well anyway, I don't know how US is supposed to win a war against China when they can't even win a war against the Middle East. Vietnam was a disaster as well. Even if China starts a war, it would be a lose lose situation for all. That's why after the WW2 the we have all internationally agreed to focus more on diplomacy and peaceful resolutions for any conflicts between countries.

The US has been completely bankrupted since the "war on terror". The US has been going downhill ever since, and the world doesn't even know it, especially Japan who should not really be depending on US at all for defense and diplomacy anymore.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

BertierWooster, I sincerely apologize for demeaning your educational level. Please accept my apology.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

You don't see any Tokyoites complaining about the US airbase in their city and we all know the Kanto area has quite a few more people than Okinawa island. By a magnitude of 40 or so. Military planes are only dangerous down in Okinawa I suppose.

And the forces in Japan are defensive, as well as offensive, and even humanitarian. Depending on how military leadership wants to use them. It's amazing that those 24,000 "offensive only" troops could pull off such a non-combat related operation like Operation Tomodachi...

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Most of the troops stationed there are offensive forces that are deployed to South East Asia and Middle East. I'm sorry but harsh fact is that the US couldn't really give a crap about Japan.

So that means, you know every single military personal and you have spoken to the state dept. and you are sure that they don't care? You know a lot of high ranking people. Didn't know you had that kind of clearance.

I'm sorry, but this whole idea about US "defending" Japan is just funny. America just had a disastrous, unwinnable "war on terror" with the Middle East with absolutely disastrous results.

"Mostly! because of the sectarian Sunni/Shiite conflict

That war has just proved to us that large-scale wars in the 21st century are never a good idea, or even possible.

So now you are a military strategist? You know what's best for Japan????

We've all learned (allegedly) from WW2 that large-scale wars will lead to a lose-lose situation for us all. You can't fight or win with a large-scale military anymore.

You mean, Germany and Japan lost, get it right, please.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Okinawa is strategically important for Japan which is why they request the presence of US troops there.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Yubaru (May. 29, 2013 - 04:44PM JST):

Have you been reading the newspapers recently or watching the news? Hint: A high ranking general in China? China should "rethink" it's position about Okinawa, not just Senkaku?

Is this your evidence that China may attack Japan anytime soon to "retake" Okinawa and the Senkakus? But have you read this newspaper article run recently on Yomiuri online?

One of the co-authors who contributed an essay to People's Daily, arguing the sovereignty issue involving Ryukyu Kingdom is still undecided, said in an interview with Japan's Yomiuri Shinbun that Okinawa used to be an independent kingdom before it was forcefully annexed with Japan but that it has become an integral part of Japan in the course of the past 130 years. They admitted their error publicly. (See Yomiuri online; May 24).

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

There are plenty of bases on the mainland. There's one right here in Tokyo.

25% of the bases can hardly be considered "plenty", while 75% of the bases are for some reason in Okinawa (which represents less than 1% of Japan's total land mass. The bases occupy approximately 20% of the island's area).

The US has occupied Okinawa, and it looks like they haven't "returned" it (yet I'm not sure if Okinawa would actually be happier if they did).

I'm sorry, but this whole idea about US "defending" Japan is just funny. America just had a disastrous, unwinnable "war on terror" with the Middle East with absolutely disastrous results. That war has just proved to us that large-scale wars in the 21st century are never a good idea, or even possible. We've all learned (allegedly) from WW2 that large-scale wars will lead to a lose-lose situation for us all. You can't fight or win with a large-scale military anymore.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

There are plenty of bases on the mainland. There's one right here in Tokyo.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Upgrayedd

The US are in Okinawa because the Japanese people want them there and invite them to stay every year. Oh, and they defend Japan also.

If the Japanese (mainlanders) wanted the bases, then why do they put them all in OKINAWA!

bass4funk

Again, where is your evidence that the US is NOT here to protect Japan, how do you know this as fact.

Most of the troops stationed there are offensive forces that are deployed to South East Asia and Middle East. I'm sorry but harsh fact is that the US couldn't really give a crap about Japan.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

The US military is NOT here to protect Japan or Okinawa, it stifles the Okinawan economy by occupying prime land, and creates a dangerous environment.

Without the US bases, there would be no reason for anyone to attack Okinawa. As it is, Okinawa becomes a prime target.

I guess what I just said, went by you. Again, where is your evidence that the US is NOT here to protect Japan, how do you know this as fact. Please, don't just spew angered words. Please elaborate as to how you know this to be in your opinion true.

Personally, I think people like Hashimoto put a clear bullseye on the backs of Japanese when he opens his trap and just spouts out whatever comes to his lips. He is creating a dangerous undertone of more hate and resentment with the other Asian countries. But don't take my word, read some of the other Asian blogs. Without US bases, there is even more of a reason to Attack Japan. You think China is a friend? They just said, last week that Okinawa is a part of China, if that ain't a signal, then you are really living in the land of Oz. With the US out of the region, Japan, Taiwan and many other Asian countries are at risk of coming under attack or worse from China and North Korea.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The US are in Okinawa because the Japanese people want them there and invite them to stay every year. Oh, and they defend Japan also.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Without the US bases, there would be no reason for anyone to attack Okinawa

Have you been reading the newspapers recently or watching the news? Hint: A high ranking general in China? China should "rethink" it's position about Okinawa, not just Senkaku?

US military here or not, you fail to see the elephant in the room. Or perhaps you are brushing up on your Chinese?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Please do not be impolite toward other posters.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Readers, no more bickering please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

voiceofokinawa,

We don't like our tax money to be used the way it is used now for the U.S. military, which I'm sure will facilitate an indefinite U.S. military presence or, shall I say, the permanent occupation of Okinawa. Don't tell us they are necessary with such a lofty air as you assume. I always suspect what your real identity is.

Well said!

The US military is NOT here to protect Japan or Okinawa, it stifles the Okinawan economy by occupying prime land, and creates a dangerous environment.

Without the US bases, there would be no reason for anyone to attack Okinawa. As it is, Okinawa becomes a prime target.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Are you joking?The economy would BOOM! Areas like Shintoshin in Naha and Hamby Town in Chatan are creating 20 times the income they were when they were US held.

You only see the surface and not what's underneath. Sure Shintoshin has seen a boom, but at what cost to other areas in Naha and the surrounding municipalities?

Kokusai St in Naha, once the thriving center of the economy in Naha is now all tourist and souvenir shops business is WAY down and you hardly ever seen Okinawan's there, oh wait HS kids and tourists. Land prices have fallen, people do not live in apartments and mansions, schools have closed, and the economy in those areas is depressed, seriously depressed.

There is much, much more, all you see is the glitter, but beneath it is dirt.

And the obfuscater strikes again!

As a long-time ex-pat living in Okinawa, you must pay taxes to the Japanese government. If you don't like it, don't pay them and go back to your own country.

Nice try, I meerly state a fact, you are looking quite childishly I may add for a fight which I will not join. The facts stand as they are, the Japanese people, and people like myself PAY for those salaries, pay those costs, and guess what, we get an awful lot in return in comparison to what it could be.

We don't like our tax money to be used the way it is used now for the U.S. military, which I'm sure will facilitate an indefinite U.S. military presence or, shall I say, the permanent occupation of Okinawa. Don't tell us they are necessary with such a lofty air as you assume. I always suspect what your real identity is.

Don't use "we", you don't speak for all Okinawan's nor everyone living and working here. Suspect my "real identity"? Doesn't matter, I could be here, I may not, but it doesn't matter, my words ring true as well.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Yubaru (May. 29, 2013 - 03:00PM JST):

As a long-time ex-pat living in Okinawa, you must pay taxes to the Japanese government. If you don't like it, don't pay them and go back to your own country.

We don't like our tax money to be used the way it is used now for the U.S. military, which I'm sure will facilitate an indefinite U.S. military presence or, shall I say, the permanent occupation of Okinawa. Don't tell us they are necessary with such a lofty air as you assume. I always suspect what your real identity is.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@bertie

It's just as you say.

So, one wonders how come the US military can use Okinawa as a training ground?

What's in it for Okinawa?

NOTHING!

On the contrary, what's Japan getting out of this? Protection, from whom? China and North Korea. As I said, so many times, if and once America leaves, there is NO way that Japan can defend itself if there were an imminent attack on its shores, especially if there were a ground invasion. People like you never think about the possibilities, only about the actual moment. If the US were not here in Japan, I think China or North Korea would have attacked a long time ago. Will it ever happen, who knows, but people like you would rather take the chance. Most of the politicians as crazy as they are, are NOT that stupid when it comes to this issue.

Are you joking?

No, but it seems like you are.

The economy would BOOM!

If so, the Chinese should be flooding the shores, I don't quite see that. And don't give me, the people will come once the military is gone, that's pure BS, if the people are interested, they will come and they aren't, so the people that keep the economy afloat are the US military. You are most certainly welcome.

Areas like Shintoshin in Naha and Hamby Town in Chatan are creating 20 times the income they were when they were US held.

And where is your statistical proof of this?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

bass4funk

And why is that? Ever wonder why Japan is becoming more isolated, the list is long, but with politicians like Hashimoto, Japan is NOT, shall we say....making a lot of friends. At this point in time, Japan needs America more than the other way around.

Well actually without Japan the American economy would collapse. But anyway, that's not the point. You've got it all backwards bass4funk. People like Hashimoto exists because America has been acting like Japan's mommy since the end of WW2. Japan has to ask America for permission every it wants to go out. Japan has ZERO experience in diplomacy or protecting its own nation. No wonder Japan's diplomacy is so infantile and incompetent. You'd have to wonder, how long could this possibly last? Japan and US are going down together, and they don't even know it.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

bass4funk,

the economy would virtually collapse in Okinawa.

Are you joking?

The economy would BOOM!

Areas like Shintoshin in Naha and Hamby Town in Chatan are creating 20 times the income they were when they were US held.

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

You know who pays salaries to "the thousands of (Japanese) people who are employed on the bases" and rents to "the thousands of people" who own military base land. It's the Japanese taxpayers that shoulder all these expenses, naively believing the bases are for the defense of Japan. The gullible Japanese taxpayers don't know these bases are mostly for the training of troops and that they are used as staging posts for troop deployment outside Japan as Gulf Wars and Afghan War clearly attest to.

I PAY these salaries, and you obviously underestimate the intelligence of the Japanese people as well, and that's a shame, they know who pays the rent, they know who pays the base salaries, they know it's the tax money, it's one the news and in the newspapers enough that only someone who can read, listen, or see wouldn't know.

Oh btw I also "fixed" the quote, you intentionally left off "s" on the thousand, and it isn't ONE thousand and you would like people to read, it's thousands, something like 4,000 on Kadena AB alone.

No benefit to Okinawa? Hardly.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Yubaru (May. 29, 2013 - 01:34PM JST) ,

Tell that to the thousands of people who are employed on the bases and make more than the average Okinawan, wage wise. Tell that to the thousands of people who receive(d) rent from the land that the bases are on.

You know who pays salaries to "the thousand of (Japanese) people who are employed on the bases" and rents to "the thousand of people" who own military base land. It's the Japanese taxpayers that shoulder all these expenses, naively believing the bases are for the defense of Japan. The gullible Japanese taxpayers don't know these bases are mostly for the training of troops and that they are used as staging posts for troop deployment outside Japan as Gulf Wars and Afghan War clearly attest to.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Let's say that's what happened.

I bet you wish it did happen. Hey, guess what bert? A 747 could also crash tomorrow in the heart of Okinawa and kill a bunch of people. Let's close the civilian airports while we're at it! See, I can come up with hypotheticals too!

4 ( +4 / -0 )

What's in it for Okinawa?NOTHING!

Really? Tell that to the thousands of people who are employed on the bases and make more than the average Okinawan, wage wise. Tell that to the thousands of people who received rent from the land that the bases are on. Tell that to the thousands of people who work in businesses that are directly and indirectly gainfully employed by businesses that either work with the base or are geared towards military and SOFA folks. Tell that to the communities that receive literally tens of millions of dollars because they host a base and who would be broke otherwise.

And that's just direct effect.

Tell that to the tens of thousands of Okinawan men and women that have married US military personal (present and former) and who would NOT be alive today if their parents had not married.

The list goes on......but you would rather stay blind to it I know. That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Thomas Anderson,

This is wrong, the American military is NOT there to protect Japan at all. They're mostly offensive force that are deployed to South East Asia and the Middle East.

Okinawans have to be burdened with having 75% of the American bases in Japan in those tiny islands. They're virtually ignored by the mainlanders and have no say in this. Have some sympathy for them.

Remember, the American military is not there to protect Japan, the LDP just wants to appease to the American government.

It's just as you say.

So, one wonders how come the US military can use Okinawa as a training ground?

What's in it for Okinawa?

NOTHING!

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

I also remember a plane crash (B-52?) that crashed off the runway on Kadena in 1968 or 69.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

USNinJapan2 (May. 29, 2013 - 12:04PM JST),

It was really fortunate that there was no civilian casualty involved in this case. But from our past experiences, we can definitely say that there's always that possibility as far as so congested U.S. military bases exist on and around Okinawa Island.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

not to mention the economy would virtually collapse in Okinawa.

Bass, the island as a whole would not virtually collapse economically, however in the areas directly around the bases that is another story altogether. The bases only account for around 7% of Okinawa's total GDP.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Also remember that no one forces Japan to host US bases and the Japanese government could simply ask the US to go home at any time.

But that will NEVER happen. On one hand, Japan wants the US to go, on the other hand, they know they would seriously be up the creek without the help of the US, not to mention the economy would virtually collapse in Okinawa.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Kadena-based F15s' crashes occurred 9 times since they were deployed at Kadena. In January 2006, another F15 crashed while maneuvering in the same training area.

I know you will be busy googling this, but I do believe you are grouping together crashes and incidents to make your point. In the last 10 years there have been 2 crashes of F-15 (Kadena Based) here in Okinawa.

There have been other maintenance related incidents but not crashes which you conveniently choose to overlook.

On whose land are they stationed? Don't mix one country's domestic affairs with U.S. military-inflicted accidents on foreign soil.

More importantly on whose land are they invited to be on? I would also recommend the same to you, don't mix domestic (Japanese/Okinawan) problems with international agreements between Japan and the US.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Also remember that no one forces Japan to host US bases and the Japanese government could simply ask the US to go home at any time.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

voiceofokinawa

Can USNinJapan 2 boast the low-rate record of crashes of F15 deployed at Kadena?

What do you care where they're stationed or how many F-15's crash just as long as they're ditching over open ocean? Still stands that there's not been a single civilian injured or killed since the 1950's. That's precisely why we train over water away from any populated areas. Come back when a Kadena F-15's actually endangered someone ON the island.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

bass4funk (May. 29, 2013 - 09:44AM JST),

Japan started war against the U.S. So the responsibility for Okinawa's current plight, that is to say, this excessive U.S. military presence, rests with Tokyo. That's what you want to say, bass4funk.

You are a sincere person and said it very well and very frankly. But your view diagonally conflicts with the official U.S. stance. What do Washington policymakers say about this excessive military presence? They say the USFJ is stationed here to protect Japan. The U.S. brass even say that U.S. service members are ready to sacrifice their life to defend Japan. Believing these words, Japanese taxpayers willingly shoulder 74% of the maintenance costs of these U.S. bases.

USNinJapan2 (May. 29, 2013 - 09:58AM JST)

There are 28 training areas for U.S. Forces around Okinawa, which are, area-wise, about 45 times the total land mass of Okinawa Island, according to today's Okinawa Times. The airspace called "Hotel-Hotel" is one such training area, which covers 26-23-14N 128-19-53E/27-06-14N 130-59-52E/27-06-14N 129-09-52E/26-10-15N 130-59-52E and extends well into international waters and airspace.

The F15 fighter jet crashed near the western tip of this training area, about 60 kilometers from Ada Point in Kunigami Village, northern Okinawa.

Kadena-based F15s' crashes occurred 9 times since they were deployed at Kadena. In January 2006, another F15 crashed while maneuvering in the same training area.

Can USNinJapan 2 boast the low-rate record of crashes of F15 deployed at Kadena? On whose land are they stationed? Don't mix one country's domestic affairs with U.S. military-inflicted accidents on foreign soil.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

Rubbish. America won't protect Japan.

Of course it will and does. When it comes to territorial disputes, then the US stays out of it.

It can't. America is not the global superpower that it used to be.

Although financially weakened, but rebounding slowly, the US is still and for the next foreseeable future THE US is still a global superpower.

Why don't America let Japan protect itself?

Ask Japan that. If Japan wouldn't have done what it did 70 years ago, it would have the power and capacity to take care of itself.

Making Japan overly dependent on weakening America is a way more dangerous approach. Japan is becoming more isolated because it has no experience in actually dealing with diplomacy and how to protect its own country.

And why is that? Ever wonder why Japan is becoming more isolated, the list is long, but with politicians like Hashimoto, Japan is NOT, shall we say....making a lot of friends. At this point in time, Japan needs America more than the other way around.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

That's because Japan lost the war.

While initially this is the reason why the US built bases here in Japan, it is definitely not the reason why they are still here today.

The bases are mutually beneficial to both countries and it's thanks in a large part to those bases that Japan has become the country that it is today. There hopefully will come a time where the cord between Washington and Tokyo needs to be cut (militarily) but in the current atmosphere that seems like a long, long,long, way off in the future.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@Voice of Okinawa said: Aircraft accidents can occur anywhere, so what's so different in this case? you may counter. But imagine how U.S. citizens would react if a foreign army has an exclusive right to use America's airspace and accidents occur frequently.

That's because Japan lost the war. Are you telling me that if the Germans and the Japanese won WW2 there wouldn't be Japanese and German aircraft using bases in the nations that they conquered???? Duh!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Didn't another one go down in the Chibana area too not too long ago?

No, the last F-15 to go down was in 2006

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Didn't another one go down in the Chibana area too not too long ago?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

voiceofokinawa

The 1959 crash of a North American F100D fighter jet on Miyamori Elementary School at then Ishikawa City is still vivid in our memory.

I don't know about you but 54 years without a civilian in Okinawa injured or killed by US military aircraft is pretty damn impressive. It's also a better record, as far as the local populace is concerned, than most other airfields and incidentally better than that of civilian/commercial air in Okinawa.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

Remember the Tokyo government is a puppet of Washington as far as the Okinawa issue is concerned. Don't forget, either, that Japan is a vassal of the U.S. and Okinawa no other than a U.S. military colony. So who's responsible for all these accidents? Tokyo or Washington? Answer.

Let's say, that what you say is true. Who put Japan in that position in the first place originally? So the answer is: Tokyo

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Suppose the crash had occurred in such an area. And there's always that possibility.

And there is always the possibility that a meteor will land in your backyard too. In fact the odds are higher of a meteor hitting the earth than an F15 crashing, but "there's always that possibility".

It feels like beating the air to talk to you, as always. You don't seem to understand the logic behind my argument.

Oh I understand your version of "logic" very well. You however don't ever see the situation as changing or improving and refuse to allow yourself to accept the fact that times change and this is no longer 1940's, 50's 60's 70's 80's or even 1990's in Okinawa.

People (US Military) have changed dramatically, but you refuse to accept that, the US Military has bent over board in many cases to work with the local communities to improve their relationships, but you refuse to accept that, and the biggest thing you refuse to accept is that it is the Japanese Government in Tokyo that is the host of the US military here in Japan. It is Tokyo that makes the decisions about them staying here or not.

You keep beating a dead horse, and it is you that refuse to open your eyes to where you should be talking.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Actually THAT is wrong. The victims of Japanese aggression during WWII have been wanting revenge (though they try to soften it by calling it "compensation") ever since Japan surrendered. The former Soviet Union had its eye on Hokkaido. China and the Soviet Union were eyeing Okinawa until it was decided to split Korea to throw the other countries a bone. China would STILL love to have Okinawa unprotected by American forces because that would make the re-absorption of Taiwan that much easier to effect. So the Americans ARE still protecting the country - and Okinawa in particular.

Rubbish. America won't protect Japan. It can't. America is not the global superpower that it used to be. Why don't America let Japan protect itself? Making Japan overly dependent on weakening America is a way more dangerous approach. Japan is becoming more isolated because it has no experience in actually dealing with diplomacy and how to protect its own country.

-10 ( +0 / -10 )

The 1959 crash of a North American F100D fighter jet on Miyamori Elementary School at then Ishikawa City is still vivid in our memory. Search "1959 Okinawa F-100 crash" in Wikipedia for detail.

You do not speak for the generations who only know of the incident from word of mouth or textbooks. Dont assume to be a spokes person for "all" Okinawans because you definitely are not. Rather presumptuous don't you think?

The crashed F-15 was Kadena-based and was on a regular training mission in the area. You say the crash site is 115 kilometers off Okinawa, which is international waters. Further east, there is an island group of Kita Daitojima and Minami Daitojima.

Obfuscating the issue again. Hawaii is "further east" too. Plus the Daito Islands are south-east of the crash site and roughly 2 to 3 TIMES the distance (possibly more) from the crash site as to the main island of Okinawa where the crash occurred.

Obfuscation again, maybe it works on people who are unfamiliar with the territory or the situation, but not with folks who "know" better.

Aircraft accidents can occur anywhere, so what's so different in this case? you may counter. But imagine how U.S. citizens would react if a foreign army has an exclusive right to use America's airspace and accidents occur frequently.

Moot point, but for hypothetical discussion, wait, can't, because you don't understand the word "frequently".

4 ( +4 / -0 )

USNinJapan2 (May. 28, 2013 - 11:28PM JST),

The F-15, flying out of Kadena Air Base, went down in the Pacific about 115 kilometers east of Okinawa

The crashed F-15 was Kadena-based and was on a regular training mission in the area. You say the crash site is 115 kilometers off Okinawa, which is international waters. Further east, there is an island group of Kita Daitojima and Minami Daitojima.

Naturally, the Okinawa Prefectural Assembly called on the Kadena air wing to halt flight training until the cause of the accident is clarified. You know, the F-15's flight route to and from the training site includes populated areas of the island. Suppose the crash had occurred in such an area. And there's always that possibility.

The 1959 crash of a North American F100D fighter jet on Miyamori Elementary School at then Ishikawa City is still vivid in our memory. Search "1959 Okinawa F-100 crash" in Wikipedia for detail.

Aircraft accidents can occur anywhere, so what's so different in this case? you may counter. But imagine how U.S. citizens would react if a foreign army has an exclusive right to use America's airspace and accidents occur frequently.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

1st, grounding planes to find out if the cause of the crash was a freak accident with that particular aircraft or a possible problem with all aircraft of that type is fairly normal from what I've seen in the news. 2nd, I'm wondering if the sequestration funding cuts caused this plane (and others) to skip maintenance.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

A new 50 million dollar reef for the fishies.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The statistics is that between 1972 and 2010, which you call Old, Stale and UNREALISTIC! LOL.

Tell you what, you show updated statistics for after 2000 and you'll see a dramatic drop, it's impossible to think that there will be zero, as within any society, there is no "perfection". The statistics the prefecture uses are out of balance and stale. wait another 20 years and those stats will drop further and further. Zero is unrealistic. But I see you can't answer, how many Japanese incidents were there between 2000 and today? ANSWER!

So who's responsible for all these accidents? Tokyo or Washington? Answer.

Tokyo

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Yubaru,

The statistics is that between 1972 and 2010, which you call Old, Stale and UNREALISTIC! LOL.

Remember the Tokyo government is a puppet of Washington as far as the Okinawa issue is concerned. Don't forget, either, that Japan is a vassal of the U.S. and Okinawa no other than a U.S. military colony. So who's responsible for all these accidents? Tokyo or Washington? Answer.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

You always complain about the US did this and that to the poor people of Okinawa. If the US would leave, the whole Island would be bankrupt in a few years, tourism is not enough to stimulate the economy there.

Coulda-Woulda-Shoulda. American occupants always use rather primitive cliches for self-justification of their actions on occupied foreign soil. "Without America, you would speak German/ Russian/ Chinese/ Martian etc language" ROTFL

The former Soviet Union had its eye on Hokkaido.

Feel free to back your statement by valid proofs ( i.e. Stalin's orders to invade Hokkaido etc)

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Boeing F15 As are in Japan. It has A, B, C, D, Eagle. Because the pilot survived, we will hear more about cause, I hope.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

US troops have no place doing training flights in such a heavily populated area as Okinawa.

And as we all know, 115 km east of Okinawa is a VERY heavily populated training area. (rolls eyes)

This is wrong, the American military is NOT there to protect Japan at all. They're mostly offensive force that are deployed to South East Asia and the Middle East.

Actually THAT is wrong. The victims of Japanese aggression during WWII have been wanting revenge (though they try to soften it by calling it "compensation") ever since Japan surrendered. The former Soviet Union had its eye on Hokkaido. China and the Soviet Union were eyeing Okinawa until it was decided to split Korea to throw the other countries a bone. China would STILL love to have Okinawa unprotected by American forces because that would make the re-absorption of Taiwan that much easier to effect. So the Americans ARE still protecting the country - and Okinawa in particular.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@bertie

If the plane had crashed in the middle of an Okinawan City, how many people do you think would have been killed?

Let's say that's what happened. How many would have died?

One pilot and a whole bunch of civilians on the ground. Perhaps kids at school. Shoppers in a shopping mall. Sick people in a hospital.

The pilot chose his occupation. He knew the risks when he signed up. The guys on the ground didn't choose to be crashed on.

Well, the fact is that it didn't happen.

And that's lucky for the pilot and any others who might have gotten in the way.

But honestly, there's a tragedy waiting to happen.

US troops have no place doing training flights in such a heavily populated area as Okinawa.

So, you'll have them replaced with Okinawan troops?????

Basically, in simplified terminology, if the pilot would have died....ehhh, so what, because he chose his profession. Nice, really nice.

I'm going to play Devil's advocate, I could say, the same thing, had the pilot crashed and there would have been loss of life on the ground, the people that reside there in that area, it's their fault for living there, they had NO business living in a residence of an area where the planes have their practice routine flights. It's an accident waiting to happen. Same as the hospital and schools. Those people should relocate, anywhere instead of the flight path of these jets. Do you see how idiotic that sounds?

Personally, I hope the US troops stay for as long as they can in Okinawa, because I know that would just p*** you off. The pilot was doing his job, it's a miracle that he wasn't killed and that no one else on the ground was killed. His life and the people's lives on the ground have all equal meaning whether you like it or not. You want the US troops out of there and out of Japan, what do you think would happen if the US would entirely pull its troops out and you have idiots like Hashimoto spewing senseless garbage out of his mouth by constantly floundering insidious comments towards his Asian neighbors and an especially unhinged China? Or piss off both Koreas, you think Japan has the capability and the raw man force or the muscle to thwart off a possible attack or invasion all by itself? If you think that, then you believe in the Easter Bunny as well. I do not believe for one minute that creeps like Hashimoto would ever have the guts to flap their gums if the US wouldn't be on their side. You always complain about the US did this and that to the poor people of Okinawa. If the US would leave, the whole Island would be bankrupt in a few years, tourism is not enough to stimulate the economy there. I know, the people there know it, like it or not, that's the way this marriage will be for a very long time to come. And the J-politicians like Hashimoto will always take advantage of that for their own selfish political gains.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

How many incidents/accident involving a foreign army occur in the U.S.? None, for sure. Even one such incident/accident is too many on foreign soil, don't you understand? You can say what you say because you think Okinawa is your military's hard-won spoil in WW II.

You have no idea what I think first off. Secondly you are not being realistic either and continually bring up old stale statistics that do not pertain to todays military in Okinawa or Japan. You can not admit that the military has been cleaning up its act in comparison to pre 2000, or even pre 1990's in Okinawa. So you continue, like so many others to obfuscate the issue.

Okinawa btw is not "my military's hard-won spoil of WWII. Talk to the Japanese Government in Tokyo, that's where your problem is, and you are hardly "the voice of okinawa". More like finger-nails on the chalk board of life.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Bertie, let's hope you are going to protect Japan when they need it. You have a problem with the U.S. military so let's hear your solution.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

The US military presence in Japan is a damned of you/damned if you don't issue. The level of force IS necessary. Japan is limited on the strength of her armed forces. America picks up the slack. If the US was not here then Japan would be responsible for her own defense. That would require a lot more personnel than they currently have/are allowed. To provide for the common defense Article 9 would have to be severely amended, or even abolished. That would make the other countries in the region fearful of Japanese militarism.

There actually is no easy answer to this issue. Yeah, I feel bad for Japan to have to host the US Forces. The US has not always been the most gracious guests. The vast majority of US personnel are competent, law-abiding, culture-respecting people. The insinuation that, were the incident over Okinawa Island, the pilot would have ditched his aircraft without regard to what his aircraft, is more than a little insulting.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

voiceofokinawa

This crash is merely a tip of an iceberg of U.S. base-related accidents that occur in Okinawa every year.

It's telling how you pile this incident on on to your iceberg of base accidents that occur IN Okinawa when it took place in international waters over 50 km outside of Japan's territorial waters. Technically, it didn't even happen in Japan. But of course that little detail doesn't fit your narrative...

The F-15, flying out of Kadena Air Base, went down in the Pacific about 115 kilometers east of Okinawa

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Yubaru:

How many incidents/accident involving a foreign army occur in the U.S.? None, for sure. Even one such incident/accident is too many on foreign soil, don't you understand? You can say what you say because you think Okinawa is your military's hard-won spoil in WW II.

-12 ( +0 / -12 )

the total number of incidents/accidents involved with U.S. bases between 1972 and 2010 accounted for 1,545 with an annual average numbering 41.

Incidents? The politicians call jaywalking an incident. And just refresh us here, just how many Okinawan/Japanese incidents were there during the same time period?

Oh and instead of "averaging" it out, tell us how many incidents there have been since 2000? Not even close to the "average" I'll tell you that much. Stale facts to obfuscate the issue and try to make it seem like the US Military is worse than it is.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

If the plane had crashed in the middle of an Okinawan City, how many people do you think would have been killed? Let's say that's what happened. How many would have died?

You can play the What-If game all day. One, too bad the training takes place in the middle of the ocean.. also, They kind of take into consideration the people on the ground before they randomly crash a plane... But it's okay, can't really argue with your ignorance or total contempt against the United States presence in Japan.

Remember, the American military is not there to protect Japan, the LDP just wants to appease to the American government.

Hmm, maybe the US should just let those happy little Chinese ships come on over and take your happy little paradise island where nothing ever happens. And for the US to be an Offensive force, that requires the US to be attacking other countries.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

This crash is merely a tip of an iceberg of U.S. base-related accidents that occur in Okinawa every year. According to the Okinawa Prefectural Government's "US Military Base Issues in Okinawa" (2011), the total number of incidents/accidents involved with U.S. bases between 1972 and 2010 accounted for 1,545 with an annual average numbering 41.

Visit the site and confirm the figure for yourself. (Just type in "US Military Base Issues in Okinawa" in your search engine.)

By looking at a map posted there, you will also be surprised to find how Okinawa is located within U.S. military bases and not vice versa. Not only land but also waters and air space occupy vast sphere of Okinawa. The crash occurred in one of these water areas and air spaces the U.S. military has a right for exlusive use.

The Cairo Declaration of 1943 declared the Great Allies "covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion." What a farce! What a laughing matter!

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

Didn't crash IN Okinawa, fortunately. The few Okinawans who whine about the US presence that keeps them from being Chinese will have a field day with this, but they'll settle down again when a Chinese ship enters their waters.

This is wrong, the American military is NOT there to protect Japan at all. They're mostly offensive force that are deployed to South East Asia and the Middle East.

Okinawans have to be burdened with having 75% of the American bases in Japan in those tiny islands. They're virtually ignored by the mainlanders and have no say in this. Have some sympathy for them.

Remember, the American military is not there to protect Japan, the LDP just wants to appease to the American government.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

One local politician was calling for all US F-15's to be grounded in Japan until the cause of the crash is determined

Looks like someone forgot about the TFOA incidents with the JASDF's F-15s

7 ( +7 / -0 )

Bertie Japan uses F-15s too. They could just as easily have their own crash. Maybe we should ban Airbus planes in Okinawa since one exploded in the Naha airport. Accidents always are going to happen. Some people read to much into accidents and twist them to support their agenda. Glad the pilot was ok.

One local politician was calling for all US F-15's to be grounded in Japan until the cause of the crash is determined. I guess he conveniently forget about the Japanese one's. But then probably figured that they don't crash only the US one's do............(sarcasm)

Let's do a Bertie here; ban all cars on the roads in Okinawa, they crash so they shouldnt be allowed. Oh but wait, it's ok for JAPANESE to crash and burn here, just not US.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Bertie Japan uses F-15s too. They could just as easily have their own crash. Maybe we should ban Airbus planes in Okinawa since one exploded in the Naha airport. Accidents always are going to happen. Some people read to much into accidents and twist them to support their agenda. Glad the pilot was ok.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

If the plane had crashed in the middle of an Okinawan City, how many people do you think would have been killed?

It didnt so it's a moot point. You are the type of person that will blame the military in Okinawa for global warming too.

Do you have any idea how many people died in car crashes between the time of this crash and the last one?

Yet I dont see you complaining and worrying about driving a car? But it's the same thing...what if?

US troops have no place doing training flights in such a heavily populated area as Okinawa.

It wasnt, it was over the ocean, or don't you watch TV?

8 ( +10 / -2 )

only does it get in the way, but accidents like this could just as easily happen in a highly populated area.

Whenever I fly in to or out of Haneda I am flying over a highly populated area. The same goes for many other airports in Japan, and around the world. Would you suggest we move airports far away from population centers?

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Why on Earth is such a huge base on such a small island?

The base should relocate to Hawaii

The F-15 has an effective range of 1,967 km for interdiction. That means from Okinawa they can cover Japan as far north as Hokkaido, the entire Korean peninsula, China as far as Dalian, Beijing and Shanghai and all of Taiwan. From Hawaii they can cover........Hawaii.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

Glad the pilot's safe.

"US troops have no place doing training flights in such a heavily populated area as Okinawa"

Yes, we could all be speaking Chinese or Russian now, lol.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Why on Earth is such a huge base on such a small island?

Less than 10km² out of an island over 1,200km2 in area.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I'm so glad that you are showing so much concern for the pilot.

She doesnt care about the pilot. Actually would prefer him dead from the anti-military posts that she often posts here.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

bass4funk,

I'm so glad that you are showing so much concern for the pilot.

If the plane had crashed in the middle of an Okinawan City, how many people do you think would have been killed?

Let's say that's what happened. How many would have died?

One pilot and a whole bunch of civilians on the ground. Perhaps kids at school. Shoppers in a shopping mall. Sick people in a hospital.

The pilot chose his occupation. He knew the risks when he signed up. The guys on the ground didn't choose to be crashed on.

Well, the fact is that it didn't happen.

And that's lucky for the pilot and any others who might have gotten in the way.

But honestly, there's a tragedy waiting to happen.

US troops have no place doing training flights in such a heavily populated area as Okinawa.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

Bertie, I am glad you learned something! If you hadn't figured it out, I knew that and was calling out JT to use a little more accuracy in their translating or additions to articles here.

Not only does it get in the way, but accidents like this could just as easily happen in a highly populated area

.You have a far greater chance of getting hit by a car crossing the street than having a military aircraft fall on your head. But you don't think about that much do you?

Don't worry, with you in Naha there is little if any chance you will ever see an F-15 from the USAF flying over your head, so don't worry. Better chance of a 787 Dreamliner landing on you than the fighter plane.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Here we go again... Another round of protests. Brace yourselves. It'll clog up the news for weeks.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Why on Earth is such a huge base on such a small island?

Not only does it get in the way, but accidents like this could just as easily happen in a highly populated area.

I'm so glad that you are showing so much concern for the pilot.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Yup, here we go again. I smell a protest all over again. Boring! Yawn!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Was he called 'Goose'?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The base should relocate to TAIWAN.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

The base should relocate to Hawaii, Okinawa better off investing in tourism to compensate the military contribution to GDP. Too dangerous to have Americans around.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Yubaru,

Some fact checking for you:

Kadena Air Base is the largest Air Force installation in the Pacific region and home to the 18th Wing, the largest combat air wing in the Air Force. The Wing and 40 tenant units represent six Air Force major commands, and elements of the U.S. Army, Navy and Marine Corps, which form "Team Kadena."

Why on Earth is such a huge base on such a small island?

Not only does it get in the way, but accidents like this could just as easily happen in a highly populated area.

-15 ( +3 / -18 )

http://www.pref.okinawa.jp/site/chijiko/kichitai/documents/us%20military%20base%20issues%20in%20okinawa.pdf

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

PPssshhhhhhhhh. We didn't want that $30 million anyway.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

will the Okinawans start a protest again? at least they should know that F15s play a vital role in protecting their colonial master Japan against lil Kim s fancy fireworks!

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Glad the pilot is safe and I hope he doesn't get the bill for the aircraft, I doubt they are cheap.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

All the protests against the Osprey and it's an F-15 that actually crashes. Let the new protests begin...

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Didn't crash IN Okinawa, fortunately. The few Okinawans who whine about the US presence that keeps them from being Chinese will have a field day with this, but they'll settle down again when a Chinese ship enters their waters.

9 ( +15 / -6 )

The U.S. military has about 50,000 troops based in Japan, about half of them on Okinawa. Kadena Air Base is one of the largest U.S. airbases in the Asia-Pacific region.

One of the largest? How about some fact checking before print.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

Glad pilot was OK and Thanks Japan for helping with rescue

7 ( +9 / -2 )

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