U.S., Japan discussed action against anti-whalers: WikiLeaks

"Tokyo insisting that Sea Shepherd’s confrontations on the high seas actually hurt efforts to reduce whaling"

This is a view also expressed by Greenpeace. "In addition to being morally wrong, we believe the use of violence in protection of whales to be a tactical error. If there's one way to harden Japanese public opinion and ensure whaling continues, it's to use violent tactics against their fleet. It's wrong because it puts human lives at risk, and it's wrong because it makes the whalers stronger in Japan."

In Japan, the harrasment is seen by some as foreign interference in national affairs

So it's not okay for "foreigners" to meddle in Japanese affairs, but it is okay for Japan to meddle in foreign affairs?

Japanese has always tried to meddle into other peoples business but their own. The Japanese people in Japan has become a society of foolish people who cant think for themselves and who cant mind their own business. They are always trying to act like they are on the top of everything and in control of what is going on in the world when in reality they are not on top of anything but their own toilets and they are not in control of anything but their own trash that comes from the words that they speak. Although many people will not agree with me in this comment, this is a true but sad reality that has been taking place in an everyday event in Japan.

Last January, a Sea Shepherd boat was sunk after its bow was sheared off in a collision with a whaling vessel.......

For the sake of clarity let's get the story straight OK - certainly some facts are in the conjecture of "he said" - "she said" but 1 remaining fact is clear...

The Andy Gil did not SINK - it was in fact SCUTTLED and that is a BIG DIFFERENCE...

This article is obviously written by a Sea Shepherd supporter. Very biased wording.

I'm amazed that the US gives these idiots tax exemption. Especially since the FBI has them down as an eco-terrorist organisation.

alladin at 08:33 AM JST - 4th January Japanese has always tried to meddle into other peoples business but >their own. The Japanese people in Japan has become a society of foolish >people who cant think for themselves and who cant mind their own >business. They are always trying to act like they are on the top of >everything and in control of what is going on in the world when in >reality they are not on top of anything but their own toilets and they >are not in control of anything but their own trash that comes from the >words that they speak. Although many people will not agree with me in >this comment, this is a true but sad reality that has been taking place >in an everyday event in Japan.

Totally OT to the article and complete nonsense to boot.

The758 at 08:01 AM JST - 4th January So it's not okay for "foreigners" to meddle in Japanese affairs, but it >is okay for Japan to meddle in foreign affairs?

What do you call conducting an eco-terrorism campaign because we who eat cows, pigs, sheep, chickens etc etc don't want the Japanse to eat whales?

Some would say that Alladin's comments could also be said about a lot of people who post here on Japan Today. lol.

I agree with Greenpeace. Watson's SS group has hardened a lot of hearts and is used by Japan to make themselves look like the victims. Australia's position against whaling is clear, but like a ball and chain, their support for SS hurts their efforts in the IWC courts. So as long as Watson is going around trying to sink ships (his own included), Japan will look like victims who need support... even for whaling.

Amazed as always to see the angry people who hate Sea Shepherd here. I guess they hate anything that is considered to be anti-estabilishment. Afterall the world is not warming, the seas are not endangered and everything on earth is happy as long as there is commerce and money. What a great and perfect universe under the man in the sky we live in. All is well. And damned be anyone who says otherwise. Right people?

Australia should let Australians do the fishing there, and then sell it to the Japanese. Despite it being a large body of water, way off the coast line of Australia, it is reeeeeeally out of Japan's way to go fishing, or observing. Nth Korea can get annoyed about waters that are close to them, and it took them getting really annoyed before the US made a move into them waters. Certainly Japan moving around Down Under is waaaay out of their territory. But Australia should allow more fishing by their fishing industry; and quit putting fishing licences so high that only foreigners can afford them. This would be the economics being referred to I think. Australia has become so strict they want everybody eating nothing but witchedy-grubs-please dont remind them you have to cut a tree to get them. And Japan should learn to butt out. Fancy getting tight on waters around Okinawa, and then just cruising around everywhere else as if they have the moral high.

"In Japan, the harassment is seen by some as foreign interference in national affairs"

Well, given the fact that the so called "killing whales for scientific research" is not happening in Japanese waters one could say that Japanese are foreigners too.

The US makes deals with Japan to help whaling by taxing Sea Shepard. But just like gov'ts and corporations will try to shut-down Wikileaks, another copy site will appear.

The758 at 08:01 AM JST - 4th January So it's not okay for "foreigners" to meddle in Japanese affairs, but it >is okay for Japan to meddle in foreign affairs?

As far as I am aware Japan does not tell any country what they should or should not eat. I have not heard of any Japanese film crew secretly filming US slaughterhouses or Australian Kangaroo culls to advance a campaign against those countries habits and traditions. "Foreigners" do in fact meddle in Japanese affairs far more than the reverse.

Moderator: As you know, references to beef, chicken, kangaroos, etc, are, of course, irrelevant to whaling discussions.

illsayit at 09:11 AM JST - 4th January Australia should let Australians do the fishing there, and then sell it >to the Japanese

No one is fishing or whaling in Australian waters.

tkoind, just because someone is anti-Sea Shepherd doesn't make them unaware of environmental issues. The two are not mutually exclusive.

No one is fishing or whaling in Australian waters.

But Ossan you should know by now that anti-whalers have self declared an Ocean to belong to a country despite what is internationally accepted. I believe it's still 200 mile limit off of a coast. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that number.

tkoind2 at 09:09 AM JST - 4th January Amazed as always to see the angry people who hate Sea Shepherd here. I >guess they hate anything that is considered to be anti-estabilishment

As one who hates Sea Shepherd I can tell you that I detest their proclivity to violence and undertaking selfproclaimed enforcement action without any authority or jurisdiction from any country. Please see the Greenpeace webpage on Sea Shepherd for more details. Greenpeace as you know are very anti-whaling and have been before Watson was kicked out and formed Sea Shepherd. It has nothing to do with "anti-establishment".

Here it is: on wikipedia's pages. wiki / File:Australia_Exclusive_Economic_Zones.png Shows the waters that Australia has control over. So there is a large area that is International Waters to the chagrin of the pro anti whaling pro Australia crowd.

one correction for tkoind2... these days the eco-movement IS the establishment. It has been since Gore became a household name, and it definitely has been since Obama got in office. Anyone who dares NOT buy a Prius, drink Starbucks, or support eco-terrorism is in the anti-establishment group.

Global Warming is used to blame the U.S. for the weather, and the "Endangered Seas" are being used to bully Japan into not eating Whales or other fish... which they have been doing for thousands of years... and yet its only recently that the fish are endangered. When only Japan ate sushi, there weren't any problems about endangered tuna... now that Australia, NZ, America, Europe... the whole world wants to eat sushi, its endangered, and people blame Japan.

When the whole world hunted whales to near extinction, Sea Shepherd didn't exist because no one cared. when the IWC was created, whaling countries like Norway ignored the IWC, and continued their activities unhindered. Japan had the choice of either following Norway and ignoring the rest of the world, or following the rules of the IWC and limiting how many whales they catch. They decided to follow the rules and limit how many whales they catch each year. That's a step in the right direction towards not catching ANY whales at all.

But how are they rewarded? Sea Shepherd and the eco-terror groups hunt them down and use them for footage in their Whale Wars videos for great profit. Why don't Whale Wars ever show any battles against Norway? because Paul would find himself selling videos to Davey Jones at the bottom of the sea. Japan's a much easier target. And he can sell his videos to the crowd who prefer to see non-whites as the bad guys. Since Japan's a pacifist country, Paul's SS group can attack them without ever worrying about anything more than water cannons being shot back at them. Dare him to try that against a Chinese fishing ship?

And let's go one further. Which is more of a threat to the world's oceans, the Japanese whalers that catch less than 1,000 whales a year, or the oil producing countries who dump billions of gallons of poisonous oil into the oceans when their refineries explode, or their ships run aground? Want to save a whale? Stop using All plastics and other petroleum products. Paul isn't concerned about how much oil his diesel-run ships use or how they affect the environment. All he cares about is getting that money-shot for Whale Wars.

That's why Paul Watson's SS group does more to harm the efforts to stop whaling than they do to actually curb the number of whales caught.

Japan doesn't come out of this looking very good: more like a little kid crying to big brother US coz some other kid (SS) is trying to stop the little J kid pull the legs off a spider for the fun of it. The little J kid even makes the childish argument that he'd be less keen to pull the legs off spiders if folk didn't keep trying to stop him pulling the legs off spiders.

Japan admits that SS action is preventing it reaching its kill quota, yet still claims that the results of its 'research' are valid. If valid results can be obtained with fewer kills, why does the kill quota remain so high?

SS retains its NGO tax-free status. SS shops retain their Dutch/Aussie registrations and are welcome in Aussie and NZ ports. Japanese whaling ships are not.

"these days the eco-movement IS the establishment."

Utter and absolute nonsense. The only way anyone could subscribe to this position is if one buys into the corporate propaganda and lip service that the world is now giving the "green" movement.

Sure there are more green products, more talk about it. But the race towards warming and the erradication of species has not slowed down enough to reverse or even significantly modify the damage. We are still hell bent upon destruction.

Until you see far more significant measures to stop over fishing, reduce or replace consuption of fossil fuels and work towards more local economic models rather than global models, there will be no stopping the warming and destruction of the environment.

You are subscribing to PR and little more if you really belief that eco-friendly measures are the establishment. Utter and complete fantacy my friend.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

USAkuma's right, if the Sea Shepherd ever attacked an American, Norwegian or Chinese ship, I doubt they would last a week before they were in jail or worse. Countries make their own law and, despite the hysteric clamoring of the Japanese government, they have been relatively benign towards the whole thing. The political environment of the world is such that American politicians can openly advocate the assassination of Julian Assange, somebody who has been merely operating a website that leaks information. What would they do if a hostile force periodically hindered, then attacked their vessels?

SS supporters should take note that they support a group deemed by the US government to be taking "aggressive and harmful actions".

At least the Japanese and Americans can agree on this much.

Now if only the rogue Australians and Dutch could be made to fulfill their own obligations as proper law abiding states.

"The political environment of the world is such that American politicians can openly advocate the assassination of Julian Assange."

I can't decide how to react to this. On one hand we know that this kind of talk has always existed, but it was never done in public. And if the government really wanted someone gone, they were gone. Evil and terrible while hidden from the public eye.

On the other hand, having them talk openly about such horrific thinking is a sad show of how far we have declined in both common sense and concern for public descretion. Yet it is at least more honest and open. And in fact probably means nothing can happen to him without the world pointing fingers at the US with such quotes to validate the indictment.

All in all I am disgusted by both. What gives one human the right to demand the life of another? So much for "in god we trust" as this barbarous thinking turns its back upon everything the so called Christians who call for blood are supposted to stand for. Hypocrites and fools one and all.

What gives one human the right to demand the life of another?

Good question. Assange's supporters should ask him. Wikileaks have resulted in the jailings and deaths of hundreds already. But the fate of a few whales is more pressing ?

SolidariTea. Where is the proof of all these arrests and deaths? I have searched and have found no reliable news source that backs this claim. Show me the money friend! And not some hackneed right wing news source. I want to see mainstream, validated news with actual numbers.

Moderator: That won't be necessary, since the discussion is going off topic. All readers, stay on topic please.

One more thing. You know it is easy for armchair, net drivers to call for other people to die. Or to be ok with other people being killed. It is a lot harder to get involved in real politics and put your own neck on the line.

Since mainstream media no longer help keep government accountable, and this protect the public from the abuse of power, someone must step into that role. Wikileaks has done exactly that. Telling the truth about the gunho antics of a government out of control.

I wish mainstream media could be more vigilent in protecting the public interest. But the sad truth is, corporate interests are the governments interests today, certainly at higher priority than the interests of ordinary people. Afterall money buys power and corrupts it along the way.

Moderator: If we could "like" or "dislike" these posts it could save a lot of "bandwidth". Yoroshiku!

tkoid2, one minute you want verification for things via mainstream media and the next moment you are blaming mainstream media for holding people accountable. Make up your mind which you support.

Cleo; I wholly support Greenpeace's peaceful efforts, but to use your analogy, I don't support ripping the legs off of the kid just to get him to stop pulling the legs off of spiders. As has been stated, the harsher you push or attack someone, the less likely they will listen to you.

The way to get the japanese to stop whaling is to catch the whalers in some kind of scandal that would upset the Japanese people themselves. The regular populous now only knows of whaling as something that fishermen do, and something other countries attack. The harsher the attacks, the less they like the attacker. Ask them how they feel about China in regard to Senkaku island. Do they care about the fish? no, only that the Chinese fishermen rammed their coast guard ships and then the Chinese demanded that the fishermen be released. How many Japanese people can you find to truthfully think, "Gee, maybe we should share our resources..."

The Japanese people I work with say that although they normally don't consider whale to be tasty, every time they hear about SS attacks, they feel a patriotic desire to buy whale meat (if they can find it) just to thumb their noses at Paul Watson. Does that sound like Watson's eco-terrorists are winning people over? It doesn't to me and not to them either.

As far as Assange and his group go, his shock-effect is now losing steam. His group is running out of big news to sell apparently. Is it really big news to ANYONE that Japan asked America for help in dealing with Sea Shepherd? If the cable had actually said that America agreed to send the Navy or do something about him, maybe I'd take notice. But the SS is too minor a problem for anyone but Japan to deal with. and Assange is running out of shocking news if this is all he has to relase...

tkoind2 at 09:09 AM JST - 4th January

Afterall the world is not warming, the seas are not endangered and everything on earth is happy as long as there is commerce and money.

tkoind2: As far as I have heard, the whales that the Japanese whalers are hunting are not even close to being endangered... unless I've heard wrong; please enlighten us.

alladin at 08:33 AM JST - 4th January

The Japanese people in Japan has become a society of foolish people who cant think for themselves and who cant mind their own business.

The Japanese people of Japan? Cant' mind their own business? What does this comment have to do with this topic? Japan is one of the countries right in the middle of the whaling debate...

They are always trying to act like they are on the top of everything and in control of what is going on in the world when in reality they are not on top of anything but their own toilets and they are not in control of anything but their own trash that comes from the words that they speak.

Someone's spiteful...

Although many people will not agree with me in this comment, this is a true but sad reality that has been taking place in an everyday event in Japan.

...I guess that's your opinion.

Alladin: Did you have a bad experience in Japan or something? I don't understand the premise of how you pin the whole whaling topic on every citizen of Japan and use it as an example of how YOU think Japan sucks. I think the overall Japanese reaction to Sea Shepherd's violence is perfectly understandable... especially when you consider the way the Japanese media presents it. Sounds like you haven't been hanging around the right crowd in Japan to be so spiteful.

Those radical "Sea Shepherd-ers" are no different than pirates, spreading their aggression on the high seas. No one cares what they think.

Why is there no mention in this article of the TEN (10) fishing vessels that the SS eco-terrorists brag about sinking? An SS boat, which was disabled by the SS own stupidity and then abandoned, is mentioned but nothing about the destructive history of the SS pirates?

IMO, the U.S. should remove the tax exempt status of the violent SS as soon as possible.

One final note from me on this topic. Paul Watson and SS along with their supporters feel that by attacking Japan's whaling vessels, they can get people to decide against killing and eating said whales. As far as I have seen, attacking any country is not a way of making them like you. Certainly 9/11 hasn't made Americans love Al Queda, has it?

and on a more direct note... there have been a lot of posts here against the supporters of Watson's SS. Having been "attacked" by those of us who do not support him, do posters such as TKOIND2 and CLEO now suddenly feel a love for Japanese whalers' lives and a desire to arrest Watson?

My guess is probably not even if pigs did fly, right? So if attacking someone's beliefs doesn't change their opinions, why would anyone agree that physically attacking Japanese whaling vessels would somehow make Japanese people less inclined to eat whale? It hasn't worked with my co-worker, and I doubt it is working anywhere else either.

THAT'S WHY I DON'T SUPPORT WATSON'S SS. THAT'S WHY HE HARMS THE ANTI-WHALING EFFORTS RATHER THAN HELPS THEM.

Paul Watson and SS along with their supporters feel that by attacking Japan's whaling vessels, they can get people to decide against killing and eating said whales.

Strawman. The SS website makes no mention of trying to get people to change their minds about eating whales. The aim of the SS campaign, as stated on the website, is sinking the entire Japanese whaling fleet – economically.

do posters such as TKOIND2 and CLEO now suddenly feel a love for Japanese whalers' lives and a desire to arrest Watson?

A desire to arrest Watson - not at all. Though I will be happy when he's out of a job. A 'sudden' love of the whalers' lives? Not sudden, and no more, no less than the love I feel for all human life. I'll be happy when Hello Work finds them something more constructive to do for a living. Count one more strawman.

cleo at 02:36 AM JST - 5th January The aim of the SS campaign, as stated on the website, is sinking the >entire Japanese whaling fleet – economically.

In most developed nations that's called willful destruction of property or some similar equivalent. And it's always a criminal offense. And when it comes to ships it's also a threat to human life. One can be anti-whaling without supporting criminals.

In most developed nations that's called willful destruction of property

Japan calls it obstruction of business.

Once again japan has been caught out trying underhanded backroom deals, just as bribing 3rd world nations for their votes in the IWC. Is funny that the Japanese Fishing minister was doing the negotiations when it is supposedly "research". If it truely was research & not commercial whaling then would not a "scientific" minister be involved? & when you read the papers you can see why the deal failed as it was not an cut in 'actual' whales taken, but a cut in Japans self imposed quotas, which is more whales than we kill annually now, so would NOT have been an act of conservation as some have tried saying.

KeikoTokyo.

Welcome back, we been waiting for you with baited breath.

Pls, also comment on the thread about the Australian goverment comments.

Ossan - Many of us consider the whalers the criminals and Sea Shepherd the enforcers.

It should be no surprise that the US, Japan and Australia are trying to work a compromise. They are all good trade partners and the whole whale wars thing is an unnecessary distraction. That is politics. Not saying I support it, but that is the nature of the beast.

If it truely was research & not commercial whaling then would not a "scientific" minister be involved

Why would Japan need to create a different ministry when Fishery Agency already conducts reasearch? (Research & Technologial Guidance Division, Resources & Environmental Research Division, etc)

This argument is lame as Bethune's "obstruction of business" (ha! see! it's business not research!!!) rhetoric.

NigelBoy

I agree, I found it revealing that the whaling is labeled "research" but Bethune was convicted of "obstruction of business". Seems a bit contradictory.

Nigelboy, OK so Bethune boarded a ship that cut off the nose of his vessel to serve the Captain with a bill for his boat. At worst it was aggravated trespassing. He did not harm or threaten anyone when he boarded the ship. He did not try to take command or sabotage the vessel. The trial was a big political show. The Captain of the harpoon ship that rammed the Ady Gil was never even brought up on charges. What a farce.

Shrkb8 at 12:18 AM JST - 6th January Ossan - Many of us consider the whalers the criminals and Sea Shepherd >the enforcers.

Then many of you have no understanding of law. Acts of Enforcement require Authority and Jurisdiction. Acting without it is what we call "vigilantism" which is criminal everywhere.

It should be no surprise that the US, Japan and Australia are trying to >work a compromise. They are all good trade partners and the whole whale >wars thing is an unnecessary distraction. That is politics. Not saying I >support it, but that is the nature of the beast.

This is true. The US, Japan and Australia are economic partners, and even strategic partners in terms of regional security. This whole whale thing is really nonsense.

Ossan,

Sea Shepherd believes they have both the authority and the jurisdiction. Their claim has not been challenged in any court so far. I agree it seems a tenuous claim. But I think alot of people view Sea Shepherd as a sort of Robin Hood. While Australia and New Zealand posture and do the political kabuki dance and the ICW proves itself impotent and overly political, Sea Shepherd takes action and has proven results. Kind of a Robin Hood for the whales. Enforcers, vigilantes... people like the whales and they like the effect of Sea Shepherd actions.

I am in agreement with the Japanese gov't. This IS becoming a political and a foreign affairs issue. People coming into your home and telling you to stop doing things that you have been doing YEARS before you even existed?? Please. Anyone who is willing to go berserk over an animal while HUMANS in their own country are being slaughtered DAILY needs to be sat down and I don't mean in a good way. Revoke their all rights as a group and slap them with a terrorist label. They want to use similar tactics as terrorists, let them be treated like them.

I am all for japan being allowed to hunt whales, Southern Ocean, etc or not that is up the IWC and Courts to sort out. Till that is decided SSCS should stay out of things as they only hurt the process.

Agree it has become a political issue when it shouldn't be. Also agree that there need to be many changes in the IWC and WHO is allowed to be a member. Certainly not countries that don't even follow the IWC charter/purpose.

As for arguments like exploding harpoons(heck they been used worldwide for 150+yrs, etc).

People need to calm down and forget propaganda(from all sides) and also leave their emotions at the door when discussing charged topics like this.

Arguments based on propaganda, emotions and simply reciting certain facts over and over are like SSCS only delaying and hurting things.

Just my view.

A first step would be to call it what it is, hunting. It is not research. Stop lying. Then ask as to what part of this industrial scale hunting is 'traditional'. Then, for the real tough part, why do this other than to save yourself pride? Is that really how deep you are?

Japan are you so removed from nature as not to care, we're part of the mechanism, respect it, care for it.

As David Attenborough says, 'Life on Earth is ending, and we are ending it.'

That has to be immoral, right?

Shrkb8 - Sea Shepherd believes they have both the authority and the jurisdiction.

It doesn't matter what authority or jurisdiction the SS "believes" it has. The truth is that the SS have NO authority and NO jurisdiction to be attacking anyone anywhere. If Watson "believed" that he was your lord and master, would you bow down to him?

YongYang at 03:48 PM JST - 7th January A first step would be to call it what it is, hunting.

Except that it's not "hunting" it's "whaling".

It is not research. Stop lying.

Whether any whaling falls into the categories of "commercial" or "research" or "sustinence" depends upon whether it meets the criteria as established by the IWC. In the case of Japan, it does so you have no idea what you're talking about.

Then ask as to what part of this industrial scale hunting >is 'traditional'.

It the "whaling" that's traditional not the equipment.

Then, for the real tough part, why do this other than to save yourself >pride? Is that really how deep you are?

Japan are you so removed from nature as not to care, we're part of the >mechanism, respect it, care for it.

Japan has been conducting Research Whaling for years submitting their data to the IWC, a whaling organization that is also tasked with ensuring a healthy population. If Japan is hunting whales to eat as you say then they have the greatest interest in ensuring that whales don't become scarce or extinct.

As David Attenborough says, 'Life on Earth is ending, and we are ending >it.'That has to be immoral, right?

What's going to make all life extinct on this planet is the need to feed 1.3 Billion mouths on a planet with finite resources.

So whaling might stop if Sea Shepherd hadn't made it a hot political issue? Are Japanese politicians really that childish concerning appearances?

YongYang at 02:03 PM JST - 8th January "If Japan is hunting whales to eat as you say then they have the greatest interest in ensuring that whales don't become scarce or extinct." Just like their approach to tuna?

Yes that is correct.

"Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 00:40 (GMT + 9) Japan proposed imposing a tuna fishing ban on countries that may be exceeding their Atlantic bluefin tuna quotas starting next year at an international conference on bluefin tuna conservation. Countries would have to plan to abide by regulations before the onset of the fishing season and obtain permission from a compliance committee to be able to fish for the species.The proposal was taken to the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas (ICCAT) after Japan found that sanctioning violators after the fishing season was a fruitless effort, according to officials from Japan's Fisheries Agency, and in response to rampant overfishing of the prized species."

"1.3 Billion mouths"

I knew, with your ideas towards what we are, that you were in the wrong >century. In the 21st century there are over 6 billion mouths.

No I am in the right century. In previous centuries it didn't matter.

<cleo at 09:37 AM JST - 5th January

In most developed nations that's called willful destruction of property Japan calls it obstruction of business

Yes but you and I know that the translation of "Gyoumushikkoubougai" refers to interfering/obstructing with any lawful activity of any kind, not just commercial activity.