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U.S. Navy reviewing rules on Japan bases

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By Eric Talmadge

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'overwhelmingly outstanding'

'...murders, rapes, arsons or violent robbery—committed by service members or their dependents on Okinawa dropped from 13 in 2008 to four last year...'

Hardly acceptable. Too many servicemen in the same place will always be a bone of contention.

-2 ( +11 / -13 )

"Dysfunctional"?

Does the Okinawan government have preventative measures that have been shown to yield better results?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Hardly acceptable.

75% drop in crime over 4 years is hardly acceptable to you? What would you consider acceptable?

0 ( +7 / -6 )

Can't say the timing on this announcement was a good choice.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Not to defend these individuals but,

"U.S. troops or their dependents account for about 1 percent of all crime on Okinawa. "

What is their % of the population?

0 ( +6 / -6 )

"What would you consider acceptable?" asks brother cabadaje.

To which I answer ZERO.

No crime is acceptable. No rape is acceptable.

It's not just the statistics.

It's not just the Ospreys.

It's the presence (to the Okinawans) of a huge foreign military force that occupies 20 percent of the islands prime land.

It's a huge mob of uniformed men, much larger and fitter than the average Okinawan, that doesn't speak their language and has not the slightest intention of learning it, knows nothing and cares nothing about their history and culture and just goes on blithely doing its own thing.

I understand that it's very hard for military types to get this point of view because their world is on base, surrounded by their people. For these people, Okinawa is a view from a window, or Gate 2 on a Saturday evening. Most of the Okinawans they meet are toadies who will tell you what they think you want to hear, those out to make a quick buck or girls looking for a little adventure or a green card.

But, honestly, if the boot were on the other foot, you wouldn't stand for it.

Okinawans are more than fed up.

Stop whining and give us back our land.

5 ( +14 / -11 )

it's unfortunate for the military personnel in okinawa that the guys who committed the crimes weren't even stationed there. but they will have to suffer the consequences for the stupidity of those idiots.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Bertie the fact of the matter is that if you (assuming you are an Okinawan) want the US forces out of Okinawa you need to get YOUR GOVERNMENT to make an agreement to get them to leave. As far as the US is concerned they have an agreement with the Japanese Government which is being honored. It is you that needs to stop whining and get your own people to act.

-3 ( +9 / -11 )

Stop whining and give us back our land.

@ BertieWoster: The best way for that to happen is that you (if you are an Okinawan) need to start electing people to go to the Diet in Tokyo that will be able to effectively state your islands desires to get the bases closed. You need to elect politicans that will be able to offer up alternatives so that Japan can meet the mutal defense treaty by moving the troops out. But from what I see as an outsider, all you have sent to Tokyo are politicans who whine and complain and offer no real solutions, yet will be ready to take the money from business interests that make a living off the bases and the money they generate.

If the people don't want the bases there, I fully understand. But there are things that they can do. They can get people elected who will try to change, and they can also choose not to work on the base and not to rent to the military there.

6 ( +11 / -6 )

I can see your point Bertie. But there are two sides to every story. And I love reading the story that shows that some Japanese understand these are isolated incidents and that the military isn't a huge MOB. That there are foreigners who learn and embrace the Japanese culture, learn the language and interact peacefully. That story is my life. Now as far as the land, I'm sure that battle will be fought long after you and I are gone. I've read and understand the history leading up to our occupation here and I'm not trying to change history. But I am thankful for the opportunity to be here and I'd fight for Japan as I would for America.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The curfew needs to be expanded to other U.S. bases in the greater asian region. Yes these two guys weren't stationed in Okinawa but were actually stationed somewhere else. So EXPAND the Curfew. U.S. Military personnel having been committing crimes in neighboring South Korea as well. Rape, kidnapping,robbery, assualt etc.

The Fact of the matter is that no matter how much talk and lip-service they give about how outstanding the servicemen are EVERY YEAR soldiers are arrested for rape,robbery,etc They can't control them outside of base. They can't always control them on Base for that matter.

0 ( +9 / -8 )

I'm an American and I SAY EXPAND THE CURFEW.

The quality of U.S. military servicemen have been in decline since the implemenation of "moral waivers" and large numbers of men have been allowed to wear the uniform. Until they better restrict who they allow in the military the U.S. should not let them OUT. curfew 11:00-5:00am PERMANENTLY. EXPAND THE CURFEW. or this will just happen AGAIN with Soilders stationed from outside of Japan. Same as this time.

0 ( +10 / -10 )

@ shiningfinger Nice to see the respect you have for the servicemen that defend your country and your freedoms. Your statements are insulting to anyone who has worn a US military uniform, and if you yourself have you obviously didn't learn anything during your time in.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

It's not his fault. "Education is a progessive discovery of our own ignorance" -Will Durant-

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@ MattOct. 25, 2012 - 08:14AM JST 'overwhelmingly outstanding'

As you can read some of "our" american friends find that "normal"... probably they mean that it is normal for american standards.

But then, just think how many american soldiers did not rape anyone last night.... at least no one that had the guts to actually go to the police afterwards...

But as another forist wrote, it is the job of the japanese people, not just the Okinawans, to elect politcians that neither will accept US occupation any longer, nor japanese politicians that provoke conflicts with China that make that occupation seem almost reasonable for protection.

You see the real problem? Neither the necessary politician not the necessary voters exist in this absurd backward, feudal society.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

@ Matthew

obviously you lack the ability to empathize with the rising number of victims that have been created by U.S. service men. Or you simply don't care and are unable to see the issue at hand. My comments are objective and logical. I have no bias because I'm not a serviceman. But i do have relatives who have served in the Navy, and Marines. They would most likely agree. The Curfew is neccessary and it's NOT the first time. I know the TRUTH Hurts. But the U.S. military is an institution with problems that needs to be addressed like any other government run institution.

Soldier Suicides rates have been rising, female officers don't always report crimes, and local populations feel betrayed everytime a case like this happens. you should open your eyes. Soldiers committ Crimes. AND this is not 1st time or the last time. It will happen again. It always happen again. and again. and again. here, there, somewhere else

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

And I told you I'm American. U.S. Soldiers in Okinawa are not "defending my country"

-1 ( +7 / -7 )

@ Shingingfinger I have lived in Japan for the last 15 years 8 of them in the Marine Corps and 4 of those in Okinawa, so I have every right to disagree with what you have said about low standards of recruits and rising victim counts. As far as your statements about suicides rates climbing do you not realize that that may have something to do with large numbers of those very troops having come from combat environments where yes they were defending your country. And if you think that the military members in Japan are not defending your country you are blind.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Readers, please stop bickering. If you are not willing to be tolerant of opposing views, the do not post here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Fact of the matter is that no matter how much talk and lip-service they give about how outstanding the servicemen are EVERY YEAR soldiers are arrested for rape,robbery,etc They can't control them outside of base. They can't always control them on Base for that matter.

Shinfinger - you might as well declare marshall law in Okinawa. You are just as likely to have a crime commited against you by an Okinawan as you do a US Service Member. The numbers back this up.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

part of the problem is the u.s. military protects the offenders once they get on base. if they break the law they should be turned over for local justice whatever that may be.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

If the army guys cannot keep their pecker in their pants, they should not be allowed to leave their base, are the Okinawa bases not like the airbase in Misawa, they have everything on base, so they don't need to go off base

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Okinawans being childish again? go figure

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Usually cases like this will be seen in the military judicial system after the time served in Japan. It'll kill their careers. Not that I'm an expert, but It's what I've seen for the last 7 years I've been here. Even if they don't manage to get kicked out, their advancement chances will be hurt. I'm still curious to know the nature of incident. That may never come out and be only between the criminals and the victim. Has anyone heard what actually happened that night?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

@ D.J. That too is something that I would like to know.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Baby sitting at the highest level. Just leave. Get the Heck out of Japan or use the Top Ten List to chose where it wants to put defenses. When will "military intelligence" be smart enough to know that the USA taxpayers cannot afford the waste that goes on in all of the countries in which it has military personnel? Libya is an example: spend the money where it counts.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

adding that lower-level leaders would be able to keep the small number of potential troublemakers in line

so they KNOW they have a few bad eggs... why then, are they still employed??

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Matthew SimonOCT. 25, 2012 - 10:41AM JST @ shiningfinger Nice to see the respect you have for the servicemen that defend your country and your freedoms

no Matty, he does respect servicemen that defend his country and freedom. not rapists. (^_-)b

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

"What would you consider acceptable?" asks brother cabadaje.

To which I answer ZERO.

Then you fail at reality. And I am not your brother.

No crime is acceptable. No rape is acceptable.

I'm sure that it is a tremendous comfort to all the victims that you find what happened to them to be unacceptable. However, the fact remains, it did happen to them, and like it or not, you will have to either accept it, or deny them.

Notice how you aren't the only one who can twist a phrase around?

It's not just the statistics. It's not just the Ospreys.

It's neither, actually.

It's the presence (to the Okinawans) of a huge foreign military force that occupies 20 percent of the islands prime land.

That right there is what it is. Everything else is just window dressing.

It's a huge mob of uniformed men, much larger and fitter than the average Okinawan, that doesn't speak their language and has not the slightest intention of learning it, knows nothing and cares nothing about their history and culture and just goes on blithely doing its own thing.

Kind of like that huge mob of Okinawans, none of which speak English, or has any interest in learning it, or knows or cares anything about the history and culture of their roommates, and even if they did, would just completely ignore it anyway.

Or wait...maybe that would be an unfair stereotype of all Okinawans.

I understand that it's very hard for military types to get this point of view because their world is on base, surrounded by their people.

No, they get it pretty well. It's just that Americans are kind of used to being hated, and we know that having extremist asses is part and parcel of living in a society, so we tend to not let the few haters symbolize the remainder of the country.

For these people, Okinawa is a view from a window, or Gate 2 on a Saturday evening. Most of the Okinawans they meet are toadies who will tell you what they think you want to hear, those out to make a quick buck or girls looking for a little adventure or a green card.

They also meet a lot of Okinawans who look at them as if they were something unpleasant on the bottom of their shoe. These people tend to consider themselves the "good" or "loyal" Okinawans, and they consider anyone who regularly does business with the bases as toadies, syncophants, or moneygrubbers. From the outside looking in, the people who do business with Americans are at least polite. I would rather do business with a polite Okinawan than with a righteous twit.

But, honestly, if the boot were on the other foot, you wouldn't stand for it.

No, we wouldn't. We would petition our government, and if we do not accept their response, demonstrate in front of the government offices to take it up a level.

Okinawans are more than fed up.

Then stop whining about it.

Stop whining and give us back our land.

Working on it. There was a delay with the financing aspect of it, but US/JAP decided to keep the prices fixed, instead of adjusting for inflation.

Oh, wait, you didn't know that this was actually going on? Oh, shoot...looks like you'll have to find something else to whine about.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

so they KNOW they have a few bad eggs... why then, are they still employed??

Because all eggs look alike until you put them over a fire.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Less than a week before the rape was reported, 7th Fleet commander Vice Adm Scott Swift and Rear Adm Dan Cloyd, commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Japan, issued a memorandum ending the nearly decade-old “liberty card” program, which regulated off-hours activities by sailors in Japan. Me thinks this dude Scott Swift and this other dude Dan Cloyd should BOTH be out of a job! Fire their asses, arrest them for being too stupid to not understand that getting rid of this liberty card stuff was a BAD idea! No reason for sailors to be out so late on Japanese streets anyway. Take a wild guess what young, drunk, horny sailors who have been out at sea for way too long want went they come rushing out of them stinky ships?? Yes, SEX! And most of them with women, or at least a good % of them want SEX! It would be a nice gesture by the Obama Administration to FIRE these 2 fools who are in charge of the US navy 7th Fleet and not only make examples out of the 2 young fools from Texas and Oklahoma but of these 2 older fools from who knows where but anyway, FIRE them, make the curfew permanent as my fellow American SHINING FINGER points out.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Fire their asses, arrest them for being too stupid to not understand that getting rid of this liberty card stuff was a BAD idea!

Actually, their unit still had the Liberty Card in effect.

Take a wild guess what young, drunk, horny sailors who have been out at sea for way too long want went they come rushing out of them stinky ships??

These guys were reservists. They were fresh out of Oklahoma.

It would be a nice gesture by the Obama Administration to FIRE these 2 fools who are in charge of the US navy 7th Fleet and not only make examples out of the 2 young fools from Texas and Oklahoma but of these 2 older fools from who knows where but anyway, FIRE them, make the curfew permanent as my fellow American SHINING FINGER points out.

Fortunately, we have intelligent people in charge of making decisions, and they know that it is idiotic to fire two people with the background and experience these two admirals have, for making a choice that did not affect this situation in the slightest, just for the sake of "nice" gesture. Almost as ridiculous and pointless as demanding its reinstatement based on little more than frustration at having to admit that everything that can be done to prevent it has already been done.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Stop whining and give us back our land.

You are welcome for the Freedom and Prosperity that was GIVEN to you by the United States Military.. Enjoy it, but you had better RESPECT the AMERICANS that gave it to YOU!

You're Welcome...

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Exacty what @ch1n4sailor said. We GAVE you freedom and prosperity and we GAVE you back your land. We didnt have to. You are lucky that we are willing to defend you from China and everyone else who u pissed off when you "had your land" and were calling the shots. The price of that protection from your enemies is some money, some land for bases and some non-Japanese looking people walking around in town.

The rape was wrong and the rapists will be punished when and if found guilty. But "give us back our land"?? I think we already did.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Until I read this article I didn't know the poor woman had been violated outside her own home. These scumsucking tosspots must have followed her... you know, I want to see guys like this dropped down a flight of stairs and have the sh*t kicked out of them. Not because they are servicemen, but because they are just so bloody evil.

Telling you... Bromide should be issued to all US personnel on leave in Japan.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Stop whining and give us back our land.

It's not your land.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

For these people, Okinawa is a view from a window, or Gate 2 on a Saturday evening. Most of the Okinawans they meet are toadies who will tell you what they think you want to hear, those out to make a quick buck or girls looking for a little adventure or a green card.

It's truly a shame that someone who lives in a glass house such as yourself is throwing stones. Your comments are down right hypocritical and borderline racist as well seeing as how there are literally thousands of Okinawan people that have wonderful relationships with folks in the military, and you just slammed them all as toadies.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

i must be so naive, i thought core values training is something you supposed to have had by the time you're eighteen at the very last, that's why you're no longer a minor ... at least that's how i thought it works, wrong again huh

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

<http://www.dvidshub.net/news/96739/iii-mef-commanding-general-addresses-marines-sailors#.UIkTlsW87NU

The Okinawa Prefectural Police provide regular training to new arrivals on Okinawa which include traffic safety, cultural differences as well as customs and courtesies. Additionally, the subject of proper off-duty behavior is discussed by leaders with their Marines and sailors prior to any weekend or liberty period.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Edited to add; seeing as how it's the keystone cops that are providing the training, it's not to difficult to see why (sadly) incidents occur. The blind leading the blind.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

From another article that was posted on JT regarding this particular rape case, we learned that 3% of the Okinawan population (U.S. Military, their families, and the American civilians brought over to Okinawa for base operations) is responsible for only .8% of the crime on Okinawa. All things being equal, you'd expect 3% of the population to be doing 3% of the crime so a number less than one-third of the expected rate is a good thing... in any country except Japan, apparently.

Here's what the Okinawans are demanding: "We don't care that we can't eliminate crime committed by our people, YOU have to eliminate crime committed by YOURS!" In short: "Do as we say, not as we do."

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Enjoy it, but you had better RESPECT the AMERICANS that gave it to YOU!

Respect, like trust, is earned. You demand respect because you claim to have freed someone without realizing that you steal their freedom by demanding respect.

the "had better" phrase is a kind of threat. all threats come with "or else." what is your "or else" if you are not given the respect you demand.

We GAVE you freedom and prosperity and we GAVE you back your land. We didnt have to.

the virtue in claiming to free someone is lost when you demand anything from them in return. when you demand such tribute you put a price on their freedom, kind of like the yakuza, and they are not truly free. then there is the matter of the 20% of Okinawa that you did not "give" back.

I am not arguing your right to demand respect for the acts of your fathers and grandfathers on Okinawa almost 7 decades ago. however, I would argue that you cannot be Okinawa's savior and it's oppressor at the same time. choose one and we will start from there.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

You are welcome for the Freedom and Prosperity that was GIVEN to you by the United States Military.. Enjoy it, but you had better RESPECT the AMERICANS that gave it to YOU!

As an American, I'm suggesting you do a little historical research before you post any more on this subject. The Americans in Japan during the Post-War occupation period were not deserving of respect. After four years of propaganda during the war regarding the "murdering little yellow monkeys", our forces in Japan had nothing but disdain for everything and anything related to Japan and Japanese culture. While the PsyOps people worked overtime to present a harmonious picture of how "smoothly" the occupation was going, they never reported the thousands of civilians dying monthly of starvation because the U.S. was refusing to assist in rebuilding the country's economy. For two years after MacArthur took control of Japan, the U.S. command only gave lip service to the plight of the Japanese people. We dropped the ball, BIG TIME, on that one. I, for one, will not be demanding ANY Japanese to be thanking the U.S. because we were not much better than them (and some would say 100 times worse if you take into account the firebombing of cities simply for the body count) when it came to the treatment of non-combatants.

So you should seriously think about dismounting from your high-horse and doing a little research on your own rather than letting talking heads tell you what to think.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

As an American, I'm suggesting you do a little historical research before you post any more on this subject. The Americans in Japan during the Post-War occupation period were not deserving of respect. After four years of propaganda during the war regarding the "murdering little yellow monkeys", our forces in Japan had nothing but disdain for everything and anything related to Japan and Japanese culture. While the PsyOps people worked overtime to present a harmonious picture of how "smoothly" the occupation was going, they never reported the thousands of civilians dying monthly of starvation because the U.S. was refusing to assist in rebuilding the country's economy. For two years after MacArthur took control of Japan, the U.S. command only gave lip service to the plight of the Japanese people. We dropped the ball, BIG TIME, on that one. I, for one, will not be demanding ANY Japanese to be thanking the U.S. because we were not much better than them (and some would say 100 times worse if you take into account the firebombing of cities simply for the body count) when it came to the treatment of non-combatants.

What a disgusting characterization of the occupation. If it had been any other country, literally any other country, Japan would have never been allowed to rebuild after the war. Just look at what happened to Germany post WWI. The US could have done the same exact thing as France and Britain, but they didn't.

Secondly, you think the US was worse when treating non-combatants? Oh boy, I love how you have to qualify it with the "non-". I guess the American PoW's tortured by the Japanese don't count, eh? And really, you think we treated the non-combatants worse? Really? The Rape of Nanking says hello.

Frankly, I'm disgusted by your complete lack of perspective and hatred for your country. I'm embarrassed that your an American.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

What a disgusting characterization of the occupation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan#Rape

Deplore you need to look at how the US treated Japan after the war, Fadamor is not that far off. Your comments are related to actions that occurred during the war not following it. The occupation army treated the Japanese like crap.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Like I said in an earlier post ... my favorite quote " Education is a progessive discovery of our own ignorance"

-Will Durant-

We should stop living like we can change criminal minds or the justice system and protect our own families. Don't get me wrong, if some of you who post here have an influence on both governments with your political status, that's all you. I know I don't. But I know I can take the values that I've learned and try to influence as many people as I can, Japanese and American. That this is an isolated incident from disgusting people. (provided that they are found guilty)I guess I won't really understand the feeling until it happens in my own country. But then again, it happens in America. It happens all over the world.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

How would people back in armpit Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi etc..like a bunch of drunk Japanese soldiers running around drunk, horny, stealing and raping corn fed women?? Aha! Bubba and Jimbo, start to scratch their thick heads now, hmmm, is that the way the Okinawans see us??

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Oh so my response to the "give us back our land" comment was removed. Ok I will state it even MORE simply so there is nothing to dispute. There was a war, Japan lost, so it became someone else's land not yours. That someone else has been nice enough over the years to return most of it after helping you rebuild it. Someday that someone will return it all then you will be all on your own against anyone who doesnt like you. Better?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

What a disgusting characterization of the occupation. If it had been any other country, literally any other country, Japan would have never been allowed to rebuild after the war. Just look at what happened to Germany post WWI. The US could have done the same exact thing as France and Britain, but they didn't.

As I told the other guy, you need to do some research. After MacArthur took over Japan as erstwhile Emperor, he did NOTHING with regards to rebuilding Japan for a couple of years. His first two years were spent formulating the new Constitution and making sure the Japanese Emperor was absolved of any responsibility for the war. We ignored the theft of materials that were perpetrated by Japan's "high society" at the end of the war - thefts that created shortages of needed materials for people to live. Those stolen goods ended up on the blatantly open black market, a market that was ignored by the occupation forces. The black market ratcheted-up the prices for basic necessities, which resulted in runaway inflation which, again, the Americans did NOTHING to curb. It wasn't until the Constitution was nailed down and the safety of the Emperor was assured that any effort was spent by America to start rebuilding the country, and even then they didn't put much effort into it until 1950 when the U.S. all of a sudden needed a staging area for supporting the Korean War.

Secondly, you think the US was worse when treating non-combatants? Oh boy, I love how you have to qualify it with the "non-". I guess the American PoW's tortured by the Japanese don't count, eh? And really, you think we treated the non-combatants worse? Really? The Rape of Nanking says hello.

To the best of my knowledge, Japan didn't build mock-ups of Chinese homes so that the military could determine the most efficient way to cause a firestorm during an incendiary bombing run. The Americans did just that with a mock-up of Japanese buildings at Eglin Field (now: Eglin Air Force Base) in Florida. They'd build them, burn them, then build them again to burn them a different way. They were researching the science of burning alive as many human beings possible in the fastest, most efficient way possible. They were aiming for the maximum number of bodies per ton of bombs. In the first firebombing of Tokyo, people jumped into the canals to escape the flames and smoke, only to be scalded to death because the flames had heated the water almost to the boiling point. This was the Americans doing this, not the Japanese. So yeah, we treated the civilians worse than even the Chinese were treated in the Nanking Massacre.

Frankly, I'm disgusted by your complete lack of perspective and hatred for your country. I'm embarrassed that your an American.

I'm chuckling at your charge of "complete lack of perspective". The criticism of wrongs perpetrated in the past does not equate to "hatred" but rather equates to a recognition that they actually happened and shouldn't have. I don't let them be glossed-over or otherwise "swept under the rug". There are a lot of posters here on JT who complain when Japan tries to tone-down things that happened during the war, yet here you are doing the exact same thing for actions that the U.S. committed (or in the case of the first two years of the occupation, did nothing about).

1 ( +2 / -1 )

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