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JAL pilots say they did not see coast guard plane when touching down

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JAL pilots say they did not see coast guard plane when touching down

That was A350, not a small kei car where drivers can easily see whatever in front of them. That plane need to have nose up while landing with certain angle. Also pilot have green light dashboard from their panel, with backdrop many lights from airfield and city lights. That coast guard plane is small plane 30% less than A350 and really have small profile to be visible during night time.

Also check again from moment of collision, can anyone tell where's the coast guard plane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2rswxU99Dc

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

Seems obvious they did not see it. What pilot would continue on with a landing if they saw a plane in the way.

15 ( +18 / -3 )

The airline said Thursday that it will book a loss of 15 billion yen on an operating basis due to the plane being destroyed, although the loss will be covered by insurance.

Who cares!?

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

Well. here's what pilots see by night landing at Haneda airport...the rest is up to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_QxTxLTvac&ab_channel=siuoo

0 ( +2 / -2 )

sakurasukiToday  07:30 am JST

JAL pilots say they did not see coast guard plane when touching down

That was A350, not a small kei car where drivers can easily see whatever in front of them. That plane need to have nose up while landing with certain angle. Also pilot have green light dashboard from their panel, with backdrop many lights from airfield and city lights. That coast guard plane is small plane 30% less than A350 and really have small profile to be visible during night time. 

Also check again from moment of collision, can anyone tell where's the coast guard plane? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2rswxU99Dc

Agree JAL was probably in flare attitude with nose slightly pointed up just before touchdown. Difficult to see what’s on the runway just before them at that moment.

I flew on a JAL domestic configured A350 and I recall there are “chin” and “tail” cameras available for passengers to view outside. I wonder if that is recorded. Would be interesting to see what happened just before touch down.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

It has been reported the CG plane did not have a transponder.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Air traffic control and runaway management seem perfectly suited for an AI controlled monitoring system. Might help prevent tragedies like this.

S

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Seems obvious they did not see it. What pilot would continue on with a landing if they saw a plane in the way.

Yup, perfect comment right there! Completely agree

5 ( +6 / -1 )

It has been reported the CG plane did not have a transponder.

I am dubious. You could not fly in any controlled airspace without a functioning transponder. The aircraft would be hard down if it wasn't working.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@Highflydown

Well. here's what pilots see by night landing at Haneda airport...the rest is up to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_QxTxLTvac&ab_channel=siuoo

.

Which runway was that on your video? Is it the same runway with JAL-516? Was it heading south or heading north? Also not all light will be the same, in fact critical stop bar lighting in Haneda airport at January 2nd, were unserviceable for a series of taxiway to runway junction.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-airlines-flight-crew-acknowledged-repeated-permission-land/story?id=106066266

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/why-was-the-japanese-coast-guard-plane-on-the-runway/

.

Beside that your video was 8 years ago, many things has changed in Haneda after that time. Especially in preparation for Tokyo Olympics.

https://www.mlit.go.jp/koku/haneda/public/pdf/haneda_Pamphlet_english_vol2.pdf

https://www.travelvoice.jp/english/new-air-routes-into-haneda-airport-will-be-effective-in-march-2020-to-add-39000-international-slots-a-year

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

It has been reported the CG plane did not have a transponder.

They most definitely had a transponder, they just may not have had one with ADS-B capability.

Well. here's what pilots see by night landing at Haneda airport...the rest is up to you.

A350 pilots use a HUD (Heads Up Display) and some pilots have commented that can make seeing things on the runway at night even more difficult than it already is. Here's what that looks like, though not at HND:

https://youtu.be/GqLT8HtRAQw?si=31oMMeCUip-UMbwu&t=470

Also it should be noted the video upthread is of landing on 34L not 34R. The light field is different.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Desert Tortoise

"It has been reported the CG plane did not have a transponder."

I am dubious. You could not fly in any controlled airspace without a functioning transponder. The aircraft would be hard down if it wasn't working.

The report I saw said the transponder was not yet engaged, as they thought they had not yet entered the runway, which is when it would have been engaged. Is that not the correct procedure?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

It was fairly obvious from the initial videos that the JAL crew had no idea there was another aircraft on the runway. The JAL airliner approached in a normal manner. Even the collision itself only felt like a bump in the cabin, according to passenger accounts. The cockpit crew didn't even know the liner was on fire. So, they probably didn't even realize it was an aircraft they hit. They might have thought it was ground vehicle or debris, at first.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Ask Trade

"The airline said Thursday that it will book a loss of 15 billion yen on an operating basis due to the plane being destroyed, although the loss will be covered by insurance."

Who cares!?

JAL executives, creditors, shareholders, insurers, the insurers' execs and shareholders, and just people in general with a healthy curiosity about current events and the effects those events have on the world around us.

But, no, not people who live in a bubble, caring only about the tings that affect them directly. They wouldn't care.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

They would have been given a squawk code and would have read it back.

And it’s usual to turn on all the lights, including landing lights, when entering an active runway. Very difficult to see a plane from the rear without all lights on at night, especially one that is beyond the landing point.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The report I saw said the transponder was not yet engaged, as they thought they had not yet entered the runway, which is when it would have been engaged. Is that not the correct procedure?

Transponder would be active from the time the flight plan has been confirmed with ATC, usually when leaving the gate.

As a former pilot it is really hard to believe they would not know they had entered a runway, especially one as big as 34R at Haneda.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

QuestionsGuy

Transponder would be active from the time the flight plan has been confirmed with ATC, usually when leaving the gate.

As a former pilot it is really hard to believe they would not know they had entered a runway, especially one as big as 34R at Haneda.

Thanks for the explanation. The article I read made it sound like there was an electronic "beacon" that is activated when a craft enters the runway which would alert other crafts of possible collision. Obviously, if such devices were activated beforehand, they would trigger countless false warnings.

But, I guess there isn't such a device, or it doesn't work that way.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The article I read made it sound like there was an electronic "beacon" that is activated when a craft enters the runway which would alert other crafts of possible collision.

You may be referring to TCAS, which is a transponder-based collision avoidance system. It provides warnings and evasion alerts ahead of possible collision, but only in the air.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

They would have been given a squawk code and would have read it back.

And it’s usual to turn on all the lights, including landing lights, when entering an active runway. Very difficult to see a plane from the rear without all lights on at night, especially one that is beyond the landing point.

Great point.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@sakurasuki

Which runway was that on your video? Is it the same runway with JAL-516? Was it heading south or heading north? Also not all light will be the same, in fact critical stop bar lighting in Haneda airport at January 2nd, were unserviceable for a series of taxiway to runway junction.

,your questions and explanations are irrelevant and do nothing to the matter.

All international run-ways have to follow the same standards.

Another mysterious is what’s about the landing lights of JAL Flight 516…accidently off?

And what’s about the flashing lights of JA772A C? Off?

Easy to see from 5 miles away!

If the pilot of coastal guard plane was right and had permission to take-off, like he says,

why did he waited for 40 seconds in take off position and turned all lights off?

Here’s a little about international air plane lighting:

https://docs.flybywiresim.com/pilots-corner/a32nx-briefing/flight-deck/ovhd/ext-lt/

It doesn’t matter if Air-Bus A350 or Bombardier DHC8-30, they all have to follow international strict regulations.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

With the video we all have seen of the landing, one wonders why the military plane had no light flashing as every plane on ground should have. The Jal pilots would have seen it from a cdrtain distance and do their emergency correction procedure if they could spot its move enough.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

With the video we all have seen of the landing, one wonders why the military plane had no light flashing as every plane on ground should have. The Jal pilots would have seen it from a cdrtain distance and do their emergency correction procedure if they could spot its move enough.

I have squinted at videos of the mishap on several different sites and I am pretty sure the JCG aircraft did have its running lights and rotating beacon on but they were dim in comparison to the high intensity runway lights. I also noticed from some of the videos of different aircraft landing at Haneda taken from the cockpit that right at the threshold on either side of the runway are a pair of flashing lights. There is just a lot of visual clutter with the approach lighting and then the threshold lighting. I fear the JCG aircraft's lights were lost in the clutter.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Highflydown

Another mysterious is what’s about the landing lights of JAL Flight 516…accidently off?

That was big A350 not a small kei car where you can easily see anything in front of you. Even if those pilots can see at glance, there's many things they need to focus on during landing.

.

And what’s about the flashing lights of JA772A C? Off?

Easy to see from 5 miles away!

It might be easy if that the only object that emit light in the middle of nowhere, while in Haneda there's so many light source. Have you been to Haneda?

Please see yourself, can you identify where that coast guard plane?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2rswxU99Dc

.

If the pilot of coastal guard plane was right and had permission to take-off, like he says,

why did he waited for 40 seconds in take off position and turned all lights off?

Check by yourself transcript between JA722A with Control Tower:

5:45:11 PM

From Control Tower: JA722A Tokyo Tower Good evening No.1 Taxi to holding point C5

5:45:19 PM

From JA722A: Taxi to holding point C5, JA722A. No.1 Thank you.

5:47 PM

Planes collide

JA722A not only already receive that message, JA722A already confirm tower message. If understood, why JA722A keep going to runway?

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/backstories/2948/

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@Highflydown

All international run-ways have to follow the same standards.

Not same but at least they have minimum standard, there's no two airport run-ways is identical, each with each own challenge. Not only that, every landing and take off can be really different, even same run way can be approach from two direction, for Haneda it can be approach from South and North, depend on wind condition during that time. Pilot need prepare what lie a head.

https://www.mlit.go.jp/koku/haneda/public/pdf/haneda_Pamphlet_english_vol2.pdf

https://www.travelvoice.jp/english/new-air-routes-into-haneda-airport-will-be-effective-in-march-2020-to-add-39000-international-slots-a-year

.

In that Haneda airport with International standard. now we know  critical stop bar lighting in Haneda airport at January 2nd, were unserviceable for a series of taxiway to runway junction.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/japan-airlines-flight-crew-acknowledged-repeated-permission-land/story?id=106066266

https://www.airlineratings.com/news/why-was-the-japanese-coast-guard-plane-on-the-runway/

.

Here’s a little about international air plane lighting:

https://docs.flybywiresim.com/pilots-corner/a32nx-briefing/flight-deck/ovhd/ext-lt/

Please remember things that we are talking is fast flying jet, not a kei car. Even from your picture we can see those light have distance limitation, only few meter. Will those lights even do any good, when one plane in collision course with another plane?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I remember taking off from Haneda last year at night and was astonished at the number of blue lights over a wide expanse.

It looked extremely confusing to me…

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The JAL pilots may not have been able to distinguish the JCG plane on the runway from the clutter of the myriad airport lights, but if the JCG pilots visually checked their right side before entering the active runway like they absolutely should day or night, they should have seen the landing lights of the JAL Airbus on final approach to the very runway they were about to enter. They should visually check left and right every time even if they've been given clearance by ATC to enter the runway. Guessing that they crossed the runway hold short line about a full minute before the collision, at that point the JAL Airbus would have been only approx. 4,500 meters from touchdown and its three landing lights would've been almost impossible to miss, had the JCG copilot visually checked his right side for traffic.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Just maybe the crew manning the JCG plane is used to taking off and landing at their home bases where they have the runways all for themselves. Just maybe not used to busy airports like Haneda. But just the same a hefty price to learning. Tragic to the deceased and to the survivor who could be wishing he didn't survive the crash.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

trinklets2

The JCG plane and crew were based out of Haneda.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Does the nose-up prevent the pilot's view of the runway momentarily, before touchdown?

If so, then it could have been a wrong timing that the JCG plane also must have come into the line of sight on the runway at that time, but for the blind spot moment for the JAL pilots, they could have missed seeing it. Further, it is said that TCAS gets disabled below 1000 feet altitude.... No alarms. Any mist / haze also could have worsened the near visibility on the runway. All this could have added up to the disaster.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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