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Korean protest

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South Koreans stage a rally in front of the Japanese embassy in Seoul Thursday to protest against controversial security legislation being passed by the lower house of the Diet in Japan. The banners read "No! Japan's Collective Self-Defense" and "We denounce Abe's government."

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No a fan of Abe or the new law, but I find it odd Koreans protest the act of fighting abroad, which their own army (as well as the armies of every country in Asia and almost the whole world) has the perfectly legitimate right to do. Their signs should read "Do as I say, not as I do!"

10 ( +20 / -10 )

Supey11: Perhaps they don't agree with the way their own military is formed, but given their Northern neighbours it is indeed quite a bit necessary. In any case, they've been on the receiving end of the last government that thought the way Abe does, and don't want to see it repeated. Try to see it as constructive criticism and perhaps even concern over the path Japan is taking when it has otherwise been a beacon of peace and has not directly participated in wars since it was humiliated in WWII.

-8 ( +10 / -18 )

I have no idea why Koreans are against it.

If North Korea or China invades South Korea, Japan should stay strictly neutral and decline any request for help to satisfy those Korean protesters.

Anyway, I am against collective defense. I do not want Japan to send its defense force to Korea. It is something I can agree with those Koreans.

9 ( +19 / -10 )

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Although I disagree with Abe's strong arm tactics with regard to this legislation, and I also believe that there are other more pressing issues, having the rent-a-crowd camping down in front of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul is a bit rich.

Let's turn back the clock and consider South Korean-Japanese relations after World War 2. It wasn't all bad in the good old days. Case in point, when North Korea spilled over the border in June 1950, it was the occupation forces from Japan that went in and stabilized the situation prior to the UN build up. My own grandfather went from sunning himself down in Yamaguchi to climbing hills in South Korea, all in the space of 3 days. Moreover, Japan played a significant role in beating the commies, as a manufacturing powerhouse, as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, and through the massive number of ex-Japanese military pilots who flew transport planes between Japan and the Peninsular. Just a few of the historical facts that don't appear in the "history textbooks" any more.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

@smithinjapan

Perhaps they don't agree with the way their own military is formed, but given their Northern neighbours it is indeed quite a bit necessary... Try to see it as constructive criticism and perhaps even concern over the path Japan is taking

If calling into question S Korea's military pursuits, don't forget their ("necessary"?) atrocities committed in the Vietnam War when the current SK president's father was the country's president. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea_in_the_Vietnam_War (I suggest you scroll down to research their long list of "massacres")

But Vietnam aside, SK has participated in nearly every US military operation, including both Iraq wars, Afganistan, Somalia, as well as a couple dozen UN peacekeeping operations in Asia, Africa, and even Europe, many of which are still ongoing deployments. And none of these operations were in "self defense" whether collective or otherwise. So again, its do as I say, not as I do.

8 ( +16 / -8 )

Korean anti-Japanese protests have been a cliche since the 80s.

6 ( +14 / -8 )

many of which are still ongoing deployments. And none of these operations were in "self defense" whether collective or otherwise. So again, its do as I say, not as I do.

South Korean has never had article 9, like Japan has (moreover one can argue that Japan has article 9 due to its ww2 aggression) Moreover, South Korea is up in arms because Japan - soon due to carry out illegal "collective self-defence" - is a country that hasn't fully come to terms with ww2. It's like having a well-armed neighbour who also has amnesia. South Korea is fully justified in its protests

-6 ( +8 / -14 )

@Chrisopher Glen

And what do they fear actually ? what is the threat with Japan ? I personnally do not approve this new law, but Koreans are just acting paranoid as usual. They seem to only be able to assert themselves through their 60 year-old conflict with Japan.

8 ( +15 / -7 )

@Chrisopher Glen

South Korean has never had article 9, like Japan has... South Korea is fully justified in its protests

South Korea is as much of a sovereign country as Japan. Whether or not Japan abides by its own constitution in their internal domestic interpretation is not up to Korea, especially if it is to perform an act perfectly in line with the United Nations charter and, it should be noted, is still less than what is allowed by South Korea's own constitution. As interpreted, there would be no allowance for Japan to send troops to places like Liberia, Somalia, Western Sahara, South Sudan, Lebanon or Cyprus, as SK has done and/or is currently doing.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

Ignorance on display there, as per usual.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

CH3CHO: "If North Korea or China invades South Korea, Japan should stay strictly neutral and decline any request for help to satisfy those Korean protesters."

And perhaps if you want to play tit-fot-tat South Korea should simply turn a blind eye the next time a major disaster like in 2011 strikes Japan. I know you like to forget that SK was the biggest donor and volunteer of aid after Taiwan, but if their attitude were like yours they could easily have chosen not to help. Fortunately, they can take the high road, unlike yourself.

Supey11: "If calling into question S Korea's military pursuits, don't forget their ("necessary"?) atrocities committed in the Vietnam War when the current SK president's father was the country's president."

Where did I say they have not participated in Vietnam and/or other wars? What's your point, then, since you're intent on shoving words down into people's mouths?

"Whether or not Japan abides by its own constitution in their internal domestic interpretation is not up to Korea..."

It is ENTIRELY up to them if they want to voice their opinion, which is what these people are doing, especially when they have suffered atrocities under the kind of Japan Abe wants (but denies occurred). Sorry, bud, but you may be able to try and plug domestic opposition to whatever the government tries to make you swallow, but you can't do it overseas.

"As interpreted, there would be no allowance for Japan to send troops to places like Liberia, Somalia, Western Sahara, South Sudan, Lebanon or Cyprus, as SK has done and/or is currently doing."

I love the 'interpreted' part when you KNOW you can't say, "as stated". In any case, are you aware that SKorea and Japan have different constitutions? I'm going to make a bet as to which one I think YOU think is better, and yet probably support changes to the part you brag about despite thinking it's better. It's kind of like Abe trying to say "Japan is a nation of peace!" while voting for the right to declare war in things that have ZERO to do with Japan and when it is clearly against the STATED laws in the Constitution!

-5 ( +9 / -14 )

Anyone here work at an embassy or have worked at an embassy? If you do or have, do you get used to protests or do you even notice them? Do the protestors hassle everyone who walks in and out or do they just target the citizens and workers of that country/embassy? Do these protestors ever cause actual deep internal discussions within the ambassadors?

Just curious,thanks!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@smithinjapan

are you aware that SKorea and Japan have different constitutions? I'm going to make a bet as to which one I think YOU think is better

Here's your answer, from first line in first comment here, which was made by me: "No a fan of Abe or the new law"

But regarding the issue Korea denouncing Japan's re-interpretation of an their own law, seriously, does anyone believe for one minute that Korea actually fears Japan's military? Really? Forget Japan's lack of owning up to history for a moment and look at the present and/or future. Does anyone want to say if Korea fears Japan? If Koreans actually worry they will be occupied by, attacked by, or enslaved by Japan again? If yes, then you really don't understand reality. If no, then why all the protests?

3 ( +9 / -6 )

And what do they fear actually ?

Coupled with the total national amnesia of its disgusting WWII record which Japan defends to death, and the fact that Japan has a history of starting wars with Korea and other neighbours like China, Koreans are afraid that the history will repeat itself once the current Japanese government completes the transforming of their country into a military oriented country, like it was in the early 20 century. Then there's the matter of territorial disputes with Japan. Japanese right wing hawks in the past have hinted military actions. Granted these were the rightwing nutjobs talking nonsense, but these days, increasingly these are the type of people who seem to be taking over the country. Abe has also said Japan would send troops into Korea if a war breaks out in Korean peninsula. Japan may once again, as it has done numerously in its history, use such international confusions to take a chunk out of Korea again. It may sound farfetched now, but it may not be so farfetched once Japan's transformations are completed.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

Papi.

It always seems to be "if"," when", etc when comes to Korea.

War in Korea I think would mean a continuation of the North/South conflict, not sure if Korea can count on the USA much this time round. They might have to go solo at it.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

They seem to only be able to assert themselves through their 60 year-old conflict with Japan.

Not if you count at least one invasion by Japan in the 7th century, followed by Hideyoshi's invasions in the late 16th century, followed by Japan's colonisation of Korea between 1910-1945. Paranoid? Abe is a man who openly denies Japan committed a war of aggression, and now he's well on the way to tearing up the constitution. To be worried about this is not to be paranoid - but normal

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

Must be something in the food that obstructs the clear logical thinking process. South Korea relies upon the United States to defend it, which in turn relies up Japan's support , logistically and soon to be military, to carry it out. But instead of supporting Japan's moves with the U.S. they align themselves with China in irrational anti-Japan tirade. The China that sent 250,000 troops to the Korean Peninsula in 1950 to kill UN and South Korean troops, and is now single handedly supporting the North Korean regime.North Korea, which every now and them kills South Koreans. South Korea as a nation and people need to get over this issue they have with Japan, most of which undoubtedly stems from a massive inferiority complex tied to the conflict between Japan's Asia leading advancement in the early 20th century and Confucian ideals of Koreans being the "elder" in the Sino Centric world view.

3 ( +11 / -8 )

South Korea as a nation and people need to get over this issue they have with Japan,

Once Japan correctly updates their history books, and apologises to the sex slaves, why not?

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

smithinjapanJul. 16, 2015 - 06:42PM JST

CH3CHO: "If North Korea or China invades South Korea, Japan should stay strictly neutral and decline any request for help to satisfy those Korean protesters."

And perhaps if you want to play tit-fot-tat South Korea should simply turn a blind eye the next time a major disaster like in 2011 strikes Japan.

Do you know what it is called to defend another country under attack? It is called collective defense. Those Korean protesters are against collective defense by Japan. In other words, they are rejecting any help from Japan when Korea is under attack. That is why I said Japan should not help Korea when Korea is attacked.

4 ( +11 / -7 )

That is why I said Japan should not help Korea when Korea is attacked.

Yes, that's what Japan said, and says, regarding when they colonized Korea. Japan says/said, they were "helping Korea" then as well. Nobody asked Japan for help (arrogant much?), certainly not the Koreans, so please stay far far away.

not sure if Korea can count on the USA much this time round. They might have to go solo at it.

There's a reason why the US still has a strong military presence in South Korea. And it ain't because of your wishful thinkings.

-15 ( +0 / -15 )

South Korea became an enemy of Japan. Japane should not help SK even if China and NK invade them.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

The US military presence won't be able to do much the North and China decide to roll in.

You know nothing about my wishful thinkings but nice ad hominem.

I have no stake as to what happens in Korea just another country that is still technically at war like Greece.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Papi2013Jul. 16, 2015 - 09:29PM JST

Nobody asked Japan for help (arrogant much?), certainly not the Koreans, so please stay far far away.

I am glad to finally find something we can agree.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

Democracy provides a means to demonstrate ones objection to ejected government irrespective of opinion, can the same be said of the governments Korea and China?....Are the demonstrators under duress?..Can the same be said of Hong Kong, Perhaps?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

They should not intervene in the internal affairs of another country.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Supey11: "But regarding the issue Korea denouncing Japan's re-interpretation of an their own law, seriously, does anyone believe for one minute that Korea actually fears Japan's military? Really?"

They're not PHYSICALLY afraid of Japan's military, they are afraid, as we ALL should be -- and that doesn't LITERALLY mean shaking in their boots fear -- that the MENTALITY has not changed since the morons in power led Japan up to and into its own destruction in WWII, and with the people in power it clearly has not. Abe literally IDOLIZES his grandfather, who was a war criminal, for Pete's sake!

CH3CHO: "That is why I said Japan should not help Korea when Korea is attacked."

No, you said it because of your pettiness towards all things South Korean, and bitterness and embarrassment that others around the world are speaking out against what even most in Japan are against (but can be hidden in Japan a little better). Need proof?

"I am glad to finally find something we can agree." (in regards to being asked to simply stay away from South Korea).

itsonlyrocknroll: "Democracy provides a means to demonstrate ones objection to ejected government irrespective of opinion, can the same be said of the governments Korea and China?....Are the demonstrators under duress?"

So, you have to ask that about South Korea with South Koreans literally protesting? (and suggest they may be under duress?)

Sunrise777: "South Korea became an enemy of Japan. Japane should not help SK even if China and NK invade them."

And as said towards the same mentality in CH3CHO's statements, just remember your attitude when the next big earthquake or other disaster hits and your nation is desperate for help, since you are so petty. And I can tell you China is FAR more likely to attack Japan than it is South Korea, so you might want to be careful what you say, since it'll be Japan begging for help if that happens.

-8 ( +6 / -14 )

just remember your attitude when the next big earthquake or other disaster hits and your nation is desperate for help, since you are so petty.

I am afraid I have to decline the support from Korea. Thank you.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

like having a well-armed neighbour who also has amnesia. South Korea is fully justified in its protests

Agree.

They seem to only be able to assert themselves through their 60 year-old conflict with Japan.

Agree here too. I hate to be ambiguous. This JT forum is a hot potato, hard to call when to drop it. But at the same time, a healthy discussion/ debate.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Hi smithinjapan, It is very important/imperative that protest is not 'smothered' under on-going political differences between governments.

My point is, there needs to be consensus amongst opposition parties in a concerted approach to galvanize public opinion when the DPJ is so weak........that's elected not ejected

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@smithinjapan

They're not PHYSICALLY afraid of Japan's military, they are afraid, as we ALL should be

Again, afraid of what? Afraid that Japan would jeopardize destroying its biggest trading partner by attacking it? Afraid of Japan's ever increasing geriatric contingent? Afraid of Japan's booming war machine economy? Afraid Japan would just randomly start attacking a much better equip, trained, and experienced , not to mention magnitudes larger sized South Korean army? Or maybe they are afraid of Japan's legions of hikikomori, who probably outnumber active duty Japanese troops about 5 to one?

The "mentality" you speak of pretty much only lives within the soon-to-be-expired older generation, while the vast majority of fighting aged Japanese struggle to pass basic job interviews let alone basic military training.

And you think the US would allow any of these fears to manifest themselves into reality? (aside from the fact that the US actually supports Japan in this law revision).

But to calm the CAPITALIZED diatribes, I personally think the new law is asinine and Japan should adopt a neutral stance, kick out the US troops, and make peace with its neighbors by using Article 9 as a backbone to do so. (yet somehow, with 70 years of article 9 in place, they just don't trust those evil Japanese...) But regardless of what I think, this is still a domestic issue that is perfectly legitimate internationally (though incredibly stupid domestically given the polls) which is being used by Korea to drum up more hate towards a neighbor for whom they have nothing to fear, and only gain from. For in reality, its just the pot calling the kettle black.

But hey, South Korea, guess what? If you do ever have a war with your Northern neighbour (which is infinitely more likely than Japan invading Pusan), now Japan can come to your aid! That's the meaning of "collective self defense"!

10 ( +12 / -2 )

1 Good Bad Supey11JUL. 16, 2015 - 03:33PM JST No a fan of Abe or the new law, but I find it odd Koreans protest the act of fighting abroad, which their own army (as well as the armies of every country in Asia and almost the whole world) has the perfectly legitimate right to do. Their signs should read "Do as I say, not as I do!"

Um, I think you conveniently forgot that Japan was the instigator of a massive and destructive war. South Korea was not.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

I support Japan's option to attack other nations. My opinion predicates that Japan is prudent and reluctant to attack. My experience is that most Japanese are benevolent and coexistent. Some are harsh and brutal, which places doubt to my opinion. --Iowan

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@igloobuyer

Um, I think you conveniently forgot that Japan was the instigator of a massive and destructive war.

No, I forgot nothing, and I also know the difference between "Japan" and "Japanese people". So maybe you conveniently forgot since WW2 was so very long ago that there is nobody currently alive in Japan who was one of those instigators, and of those dwindling few that are still alive who actually participated in the war, they most likely did so against their will.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Why are some people here saying "If China invades South Korea".

That's not gonna happen. They have a pretty close relationship nowadays.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I have no idea why Koreans are against it.

It's a barometer. It's almost like a litmus test. If Korea and China are the only two nations that complains about it, it must be good for Japan.

As to the South Korean desire to not accept any defense aid from Japan when their Northern brother attacks, I'm all for it which includes the U.S. forces currently stationed in Japan.

"...Major changes in the deployment into Japan of United States armed forces, major changes in their equipment, and the use of facilities and areas in Japan as bases for military combat operations to be undertaken from Japan other than those conducted under Article V of the said Treaty, shall be the subjects of prior consultation with the Government of Japan ..."

9 ( +10 / -1 )

NO Mr ABE NO!!! Abe is laughing stock of the World... turning a blind eye to History and hoping the World will respect his military resurgence. Nobody is going to respect or appreciate Japanese Imperialism ever again.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Nobody is going to respect or appreciate Japanese Imperialism ever again.

It's not like their gearing up Pearl part 2. It's just a matter of contemporary times and japan's responsibility to itself.

Calm down. Won't be another Nanjing Massacre. US wouldn't allow it. Plus the Chinese military would slaughter sdf @ the doorstep. Get it?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@supey11 Japan IS already in Kenya, Djibouti ,South Sudan and God knows where else, under the pretext of peace this and peace the other. I know the end result is that most of these places will end up on Japan's dinner plate. Can't blame the Koreans for wanting Japan to stick to its own neck of the woods, at all! The protesters are right, once bitten twice shy is an adage anyone who's tangled with the Japanese needs to firmly clasp with both hands.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

Let's turn back the clock and consider South Korean-Japanese relations after World War 2. It wasn't all bad in the good old days. Case in point, when North Korea spilled over the border in June 1950, it was the occupation forces from Japan that went in and stabilized the situation prior to the UN build up. My own grandfather went from sunning himself down in Yamaguchi to climbing hills in South Korea, all in the space of 3 days. Moreover, Japan played a significant role in beating the commies, as a manufacturing powerhouse, as an unsinkable aircraft carrier, and through the massive number of ex-Japanese military pilots who flew transport planes between Japan and the Peninsular. Just a few of the historical facts that don't appear in the "history textbooks" any more.

Let's not forget the logistical support utilizing the ports in Japan to deliver supplies. Of course, Koreans don't teach how desperate their nation was even to a point where their President Rhee asked the Japanese foreign ministry to set up exile camp for him and 60K or so citizens. (Common knowledge in Japan but were considered just a myth by Korea up until just recently).

South Koreans simply don't know their place in regards to their significance to U.S.

"....Many years ago, at the time of the Korean War, when it was a great debate as to whether Truman should or should not have gone into Korea, I was talking to a man who is a great expert on the World Communist Movement. He said something that stuck in my mind ever since that time. He said, “Truman had to go into Korea. We had to go into Korea, because what we must remember is that the war in Korea for the Communists is not about Korea. It is about Japan.” Of course, it was..."-Nixon

When $hit hits the fan and no support from U.S. forces in Japan (please see the memorandum I posted earlier), the only logistical support Japan will offer is to support the evacuation of U.S. troops, U.S. citizens, and Japanese citizens in Korea.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Christopher Glen

South Korean has never had article 9, like Japan has ... because Japan is a country that hasn't fully come to terms with ww2.

No, "Christopher", that's not the reason. Although I appreciate it is the meme you'd like to spread.

The real reason is, and why the USA spent so much effort to completely deconstructing the Japanese power structures, was because Japan was the only major competitor for Asian domination.

In order to become the dominant party, and fulfil its imperial ambitions, the USA has to neutralize Japan.

Korea was never such a political and economic threat. By the 1940s and 50s, it was still so backwards, its soldiers were being hired out as mercenaries for the US military at $1.25 per day, and it's women offering "comfort" at much the same rate. And those were the foundations for its recent economic growth. (Both Korean men and women went to Vietnam).

4 ( +5 / -1 )

In order to become the dominant party, and fulfil its imperial ambitions, the USA has to neutralize Japan.

Just like Japan tried to fulfill it's own imperial ambitions on a false philosophy of an united Asian under japanese thumbs? Nazi Germany was your ally. Please Lucy. You're reaching, but you the lines try to sell fall on deaf ears. Go protest the Diet, vote, sway these so-called "peaceful" japanese. They will prob tell you to get lost, lest they got spine~

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

South Korean has never had article 9, like Japan has ... because Japan is a country that hasn't fully come to terms with ww2.

South Korea never had article because they are still under "cease fire" (Though it's between U.S. and North Korea) with your blood brothers up North. That why you still think you need the draft services.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Japan's relationship with Germany was purely technological, not its ideological

Yet more historical revisionism? When will this ever end?

Let's not forget the logistical support utilizing the ports in Japan to deliver supplies

Does your Japanese schools has ever taught that Japan profited fantastically off of American logistics to the Korean War, controlled and located from Japan? Korean War was the starting platform for Japan's economic rise. How in the world do the Japanese turn this around and say with a straight face that they helped Korea? Those Japanese who delivered supplies were hired contractors and sub-contractors hired by the US military. In other words, as an occupied country (after its defeat), those Japanese were nothing more than hired coolies. Please don't over estimate Japan's contributions to the allied effort during the Korean War, a war in which Japan did a lot in creating the division of the Korea's in the first place. But I understand where you're coming from. Korean comfort women were well paid prostitutes, the Korean forced labourers were well paid recruits, Korea wasn't colonized nor annexed, but it joined Japan voluntarily, and now add this. Well.. what can I say other than to say Japanese have a unique way of looking at facts in such twisted manners.

When $hit hits the fan and no support from U.S. forces in Japan (please see the memorandum I posted earlier), the only logistical support Japan will offer is to support the evacuation of U.S. troops, U.S. citizens, and Japanese citizens in Korea.

You needn't worry about that hitting the fan. North Korea's conventional forces are crumbling right in front of our eyes. They are in no shape to invade the South. If there's a major conflict, it will be the end of North Korea, they know this. Therefore in case of a major conflict, North Korea won't be using conventional weapons because they don't have the ability. They will commit suicide and use nuclear weapons, instead of facing defeat through conventional forces. North Korea's target isn't just South Korea, it's also Japan. You're sadly mistaken if you think your country will escape the North Korean target assessment.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Does your Japanese schools has ever taught that Japan profited fantastically off of American logistics to the Korean War, controlled and located from Japan? Korean War was the starting platform for Japan's economic rise. How in the world do the Japanese turn this around and say with a straight face that they helped Korea? Those Japanese who delivered supplies were hired contractors and sub-contractors hired by the US military. In other words, as an occupied country (after its defeat), those Japanese were nothing more than hired coolies. Please don't over estimate Japan's contributions to the allied effort during the Korean War, a war in which Japan did a lot in creating the division of the Korea's in the first place. But I understand where you're coming from. Korean comfort women were well paid prostitutes, the Korean forced labourers were well paid recruits, Korea wasn't colonized nor annexed, but it joined Japan voluntarily, and now add this. Well.. what can I say other than to say Japanese have a unique way of looking at facts in such twisted manners.

Yes. Korean war was as a result of Korean failure to become a sovereign state. If it weren't for U.S. Intervention and Japan's rear support, the peninsula would be ruled by the Kim's. Stop blaming Japan for your failure.

You needn't worry about that hitting the fan. North Korea's conventional forces are crumbling right in front of our eyes. They are in no shape to invade the South. If there's a major conflict, it will be the end of North Korea, they know this. Therefore in case of a major conflict, North Korea won't be using conventional weapons because they don't have the ability. They will commit suicide and use nuclear weapons, instead of facing defeat through conventional forces. North Korea's target isn't just South Korea, it's also Japan. You're sadly mistaken if you think your country will escape the North Korean target assessment

Lol. No the way I heard. Korean government basically did a round about and begged on her knees to extend the OPCON indefinitely right after North did some poking. .

3 ( +6 / -3 )

tictactogoJul. 17, 2015 - 06:19PM JST

I checked all of you five links, but nowhere in the links is anything that has to do with "Japanese who are against disaster aids by Koreans".

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Again, afraid of what? Afraid that Japan would jeopardize destroying its biggest trading partner by attacking it?

With Mr Abe in charge, national pride trumps economic logic. Oh I'm sure if push came to shove, Mr Abe would find a way to make it look like China "started" it

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

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