Saving the planet

I'm blown away

Quite a bit of MEAT on these ladies for being veggies, I wonder if they cheat in their diet behind closed doors haha

And will they eat what they wear when they get home & toss on the compost pile to rot & return on that CO2 contained in those lettuce leaves.

I love my veggies & have been pigging out on nasu & kyuuri bigtime, lots of ingen etc & plucked my first suica yesterday & it will go under the knife tonight!!

Along with some tastey meat in moderation as well, ah the country life!

I'd eat that lettuce. All of it.

You beat me to it Altria...that's one salad I'd be more than happy to eat...

Quite a bit of MEAT on these ladies for being veggies, I wonder if they cheat in their diet behind closed doors haha

GW, you must be into the size zero anorexic-chic/schoolboy physique women...good luck finding any of them, brother! I'm more than happy with these ladies.

Makes me want to go eat Shabu Shabu tonite!!

brb, time for some kfc.

I wonder if their sunscreen tastes like Thousand Island?

I'm trying really hard not to make a comment about home-made salad dressing. I think this constitutes as a fail.

Need some cucumber to go with that lettuce?

Guess they couldn't find fig leaves.

Would you call the lettuce top on the right "perky"?

I couldn't believe "may onn aise" when I saw this picture.

Some of these comments are down-right sick! I like it! :)

Seriously, though... not easy to be a vegetarian in Japan, and in particular if you go hardcore Vegan. Everything has beef, chicken, or seafood 'extract' in it somewhere, and don't go to a staff party if you're Vegan, because you certainly won't get your money's worth.

Japan has an odd take on vegetarianism, given that anyone who dealt with meat/leather products, etc. in the past were listed as Buraku and were in the lowest cast and no one touched the stuff for consumption. Now I have yet to meet (meat) a single Japanese vegetarian.

I couldn't believe "may onn aise" when I saw this picture.

Give this man a prize.

PETA freaks are mad, the lot of them! They are preaching in the wrong country for the vegetarian drive...

Mittsu's pun is better if you imagine someone saying it in a thick Scots accent...think groundskeeper Willie.

Would you call the lettuce top on the right "perky"?

Yes, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Two points for yokomoc.

I'll bring the salad dressing!

i get constipated when i eat just vegies.. need some meat with that. plus, iron deficiency is not something i want to go with.

When I went to Washington DC 2 weeks ago they had Playboy Bunnies do this job, and they were wearing real sexy bikinis... they really know how to play the game over there on Capitol Hill. http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=peta+washington+july&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Sorry, not a herbivore (in more ways than one)

Honey roll over and lettuce on top. :P

Point 1. Why do westerners keep doing these strange things. If the white woman wasn't with them I am sure they wouldn't be standing around in lettuce leaves. Point 2. Why can't Japanese come up with their own words. Everything is made in to katakana without any thought if anyone can understand it. Unlike almost every other language in the world. Butchering English doesn't help. Butcher your own language.

I think the gaijin in the middle got the other two to do the by telling them that foreign men like a salad before they get to the main course.

cabbage dolls grew up into lettuce ladies

GW, you must be into the size zero anorexic-chic/schoolboy physique women...good luck finding any of them, brother! I'm more than happy with these ladies.

burakumindes,

ahhhh no, quite the opposite actually, I was commenting having meat on their bones not fat or neither, I too hate the yijiningen type, good luck traking these 3 down dont forget some dressing

shud be yojiningen type.

gross. no more salad for me.

we're all going to be vegetarian whether we like it or not. I'm slowly turning over but I can't claim to be vegetarian. The amount of feed and water to produce 1kg of meat is truly ridiculous and at some point reality must intrude on a worldwide basis as food shortages continue in the wake of Peak Oil.

Pork! The other white meat!

"Go vegetarian!" And "Go! ベジタライアン" are sweet, but have quite different meanings! hahahaha

I wonder if their sandals too are made from lettuce.

"PETA says that switching to a vegetarian diet is the most effective thing that anyone can do to fight climate change and reduce environmental destruction"

.. You can't be taken serious PETA!

I'd eat that salad off from your three ladies though! ;)

And the best news is you won't have to go to the store for the anchovy flavoring for the Ceasar salad dressing.

I have a big problem with this kind of demonstration. In my opinion, some PETA demonstrators have penchant for self gratifying exhibitionism. They look so smug.

Sure, they get photographed, but do they really think even ONE PERSON is going to become vegetarian after reading those signs? I don't.

Yes - No - God yes!

Gimme a bottle of ranch dressing and I'll eat all three! I thought PETA stood for "People Eating Tasty Animals"?

I eat cows, does that make me a vegetarian once removed?

Did the factory that makes the plastic food for all the restaurant windows make these lettuce bikinis, too?

amount of feed and water to produce 1kg of meat is truly ridiculous

sf2k did you ever stop to think about the amount of water and other chemicals it takes to grow an acre of corn or some other vegetable. Don't get me wrong I am an ominvore and eat both, but it takes a lot of land to grow vegetables. And with places like Japan all ways saying that they don't have enough land to grow certain crops, what will the people eat?

PETA, if you are against killing of animals, then I guess you better start a rapid breeding program of wolves, foxes and other carnivores since if we go all vegetarian, and start growing food everywhere, you will see a surge in the rodent populations (rabbits and the like) that eat the same veggies, but according to PETA we are not allowed to kill. So I guess we will just let nature take care of that problem. And let the meat eaters in the animal kingdom do it for us.

But weren't our ancestors meat eaters too?

This pic makes me feeling like mowing the lawn.

Alphaape -

Did you think about what you wrote before you wrote it? Yes, it takes a lot of water, chemicals and land to grow vegetables and grain. Simple maths, not to mention logic, should tell you that it takes a lot more water, chemicals and land to grow those same veggies and instead of eating them, feed them to animals that then get slaughtered to provide food on a ratio of 9:1 (for every 9 kilos of vegetable protein invested, you get one kilo of animal protein). If you don't have enough land to grow crops, you certainly don't have enough land to raise animals for slaughter.

if we go all vegetarian, and start growing food everywhere, you will see a surge in the rodent populations (rabbits and the like) that eat the same veggies

Why so? We already grow the veggies, which we then feed to cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and the like. Why would the rabbits and their pals suddenly decide they won't steal the veggies from cows, but they will from humans?

But weren't our ancestors meat eaters too?

Yes. They also lived in caves, believed they would drop off the end of the world if they walked far enough, and worshipped some guy who drove a flaming chariot across the sky every day. We've since progressed in other ways, too. Time to drop the hunter-gatherer pose, and sow seeds.

Eating fruits and vegetables all the time runs the risk of turning the most serene, cosmically attuned being into a hideous gasbag, ready to detonate at the slightest bump, jostle, or romantic movement. It would be an interesting study to find out who would be emitting more CO2 gas, humans or cows.

You can maybe persuade some cultures and races to go veggie, but others prefer their meat-fuelled lifestyle and culture and would probably kill or die protecting them.

Organically grown bikinis?

looks like brainwashed led by their new leader (centre).

I can see pick your own lettuce shops becoming popular.

My friend is a vegetarian, and I do not tell a lie, his breath is disgusting! He's not even a Japanese oyaji. But is breath is far worse! That alone puts me off ever becoming vegetarian.

Talk of inefficiencies of producing meat is very... white middle class. Being vegetarian is a choice that many millions of people in the world do not have, lest they become malnourished and starve.

And finally, as long as their is demand for meat in those countries where people are rich enough to have a choice, it will be produced for consumption.

I feel like a double bacon burger with a half pound of beef. Mmm.

The amount of feed and water to produce 1kg of meat is truly ridiculous and at some point reality must intrude on a worldwide basis as food shortages continue in the wake of Peak Oil.

First half of the sentence, sure, second half, are you serious? Peak Oil is junk science for people who like their science politicized.

PETA always forgets that meat is really tasty. As long as meat is yummy humans will continue to eat it.

Make that a Sapphos Burger with 2 sides of chunky-lezza salad.

PETA are crazy, they kill animals by the hundreds per day yet are offended when Obama kills a fly....

"PETA’s “Animal Record” report for 2008, filed with the Virginia Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, shows that the animal rights group killed 95 percent of the dogs and cats in its care last year. During all of 2008, PETA found adoptive homes for just seven pets."

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/

What a picture! but I think normal red blood blokes will eat even more meat when they see this. waaah mou dame da.

Strange that this sentence - Being vegetarian is a choice that many millions of people in the world do not have, lest they become malnourished and starve. is written by the same person and in the same post as this sentence - I feel like a double bacon burger with a half pound of beef. Mmm.

Anyone else notice the hypocrisy of claiming that vegetarianism is 'white middle class' (and therefore a bad thing?) because it isn't an option for the starving millions of the world and at the same time yearning for what has become a symbol of Western overconsumption and greed?

Maybe someone should do a study on the effects on the brain of too much animal fat and protein. I suspect they'd find that the more animal fat and protein consumed, the greater the damage to the logic neurons.

PETA may be a bunch of whack-jobs, but as long as they stick to nekkid ladies I won't complain; when back I was at school they set up triangular display in front of one of the dining halls displaying scenes from slaughterhouses insterspersed with pictures mass graves from the Holocaust. My school had a significant Jewish population. God, I hate radicals.

Is Waka Inoue, who proclaimed she loves meat going to wear a Kobe beef bikini to counter these PETA extremists?

all a bit, shall we say, chunky ? maybe eating more lettuce and not wearing it would be better eh ?

Cleo:

Relating this back to the article and my previous post, these two statements do not invalidate each other:

1) I believe that vegetarianism is a lifestyle choice that only rich westerners (the white middle class) can choose to take.

2) I like eating big meaty hamburgers, which are a symbol of overconsumption and greed.

Wanna discuss this further over a beer, or plant-based beverage of your choice?

My friend is a vegetarian, and I do not tell a lie, his breath is disgusting!

Friend needs to see a doctor. Bad breath and being vegaetarian are not related.

If they need a cucumber, I'm there.

You go Cleo! Seems like you're the only one on the thread making an effort to discuss the subject in a serious manner. Unfortunately, people's opinions of the topic of vegetarianism appear sidetracked by reputation for hypocrisy and fanaticism of PETA as well as their rather silly antics as displayed in the photo. Don't know why PETA thinks it's ok to use naked women for their no-meat and no-fur campaigns though I tend to think it's rather degrading to women.

Ossan: because PETA doesn't care about people, only animals.

I think part of the problem is that people want a lot of very cheap meat, and are now used to that being reality. Industrial agriculture needs to treat animals like units of production, rather than living beings, to make lots of cheap meat available. This means treating them very cruelly, and making their short lives nothing but suffering. Nothing wrong with a little meat in the diet, but with diets now full of meat, the methods needed to keep the mountains of meat coming are completely inhumane. And the various growth hormones and antibiotics used to maintain the unnatural volume plays havoc with our health.

Local supply of meat using more traditional methods of raising and slaughtering animals, while not as efficient in terms of factory farming production, is both healthier for the consumer, and kinder to the animals.

ambromofo: Not only is that a ridiculous comment but it shows how sadly narrow your world is. The first real vegetarian I ever met was a beautiful black woman from Brooklyn who grew up pretty darn far from middle class.

There's nothing wrong with the way any of these women look! Healthy people should have "a little meat on their bones". Stay here long enough and you'll start to think that the self-imposed, malnourished look is normal. It's not! Japan has some of the highest rates of anorexia and bulimia in the world so all those wan looking gals that you think are naturally thin are more likely than not simply under eating. At least these gals have attractive curves and don't look like they'd blow over in a strong wind.

I agree there is nothing wrong with these girls, they look great.

I'm not sure what to make of this. Reported elsewhere on the internet, "From July 1998 through December 2008, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) killed over 21,000 dogs, cats, and other "companion animals."...On its 2002 federal income-tax return, PETA claimed a $9,370 write-off for a giant walk-in freezer, the kind most people use as a meat locker or for ice-cream storage. But animal-rights activists don't eat meat or dairy foods. And during a 2007 criminal trial, a PETA manager (testifying under oath) confirmed the obvious -- that the group uses the appliance to store the bodies of its victims."" (source: petakillsanimals.com/petasdirtysecret.cfm)

embarressing.

They made BBC world news!

I agree there is nothing wrong with these girls, they look great.

Totally agree. They all look nice.

I also agree that PETA is a very hypocritical organization. Telling people to avoid meat, and murdering animals. Saying they care about animals, then killing them. And the obvious issues they have regarding treatment of people. I'm not a fan of activism in general, mostly because the activists are really extremists in disguise. Look at the Sea Shepard group for an example. So while these girls are quite pretty, I'm going to continue to enjoy a nice steak, whenever I feel so inclined. And not gonna feel guilty about it.

Time to break out the salad fork and dressing...itadakimasu!

Why so? We already grow the veggies, which we then feed to cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and the like. Why would the rabbits and their pals suddenly decide they won't steal the veggies from cows, but they will from humans?

cleo, with an increase in world wide vegitarianism, I would imagine such domesticated farm animals like cows, pigs and chickens would see drops in populations. Instead of man clearing out land to make more farmland (which we do now) we will start clearing out more land that was used for pastuer puropses for crop growth. So where will these animal graze to eat? Nature is a cycle. We all live off each other. Could we come up with better ways that are more efficient to bring meat to the table and cut down on the precisous "carbon fooprint" (funny thing about carbon footprints, when the earth was more populated by animals than man, they all seemed to die off for some strange reason without the help of man) then I think we would probably be better off.

But I'm not giving up Outback just yet.

Alphaape -

You aren't by any chance labouring under the delusion that the 'domesticated farm animals' that provide your meat all live idyllic, bucolic lives in beautiful green pastures, are you? Very, very few animals are lucky enough to have that kind of life. The vast majority of the animals destined to provide your cheap hamburgers and bacon rashers never see a pasture. Most of your mcnuggets and deep-fried wings never see natural daylight. Seeing how the mass-production meat industry treats animals at present in order to produce cheap meat and lots of it, the idea of them being even more 'efficient' makes me shudder.

funny thing about carbon footprints, when the earth was more populated by animals than man, they all seemed to die off for some strange reason without the help of man

Not sure what you're trying to say there.... that evolution is a Bad Thing? Or have you somehow gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick and convinced yourself that those who promote a smaller carbon footprint are promising eternal life to man and beast alike?

PETA kills animals like any other shelter. The sad fact is that shelters take in far more animals than they are able to place in new homes, or rehabilitate and adopt themselves. Go to any animal shelter in any country, and unfortunately they get more strays and abandonments than they can possibly help. Sooner or later, severely injured or traumatized animals must be put down. It is a terrible thing for those in care of the rescued animals, but there are constantly more and more rescues coming in, and limited space and resources. Animals in extremely poor condition from a whole host of factors will have to regrettably be put down. It is a real testament to the volume of animals coming in constantly and never-endingly.

The moral of the story is to listen to Bob Barker - have your pets spayed or neutered.

So now going vegetarianism is going to save the earth from its impending doom? I do believe PETA might have found an effective message, because so many people are hooked up to this "Save the Earth, Go Green" marketing crap that they MIGHT actually believe PETA's ridiculous claim.

...or maybe not...doesn't look like many people are paying attention to these three ladies.

these girls don't make me want to go vegan

The PETA people are crack pots who hurt their cause more than they help it. That said I'm craving a nice salad after seeing this trio.

As for the vegitarian debate, it's a lot like religeon, to each their own until they start preaching it to me. I could care less what you eat but I'm not converting. I don't eat a terribly large amount of meat but enjoy the bit I do. As for saving the planet and the smug self satisfaction of some vegitarians that they are without guilt or cruelty well I can't find the words to tell you I have no time for the lot of you. When someone chooses a lifestyle that's their choice, when they prosletize they need to be tossed off the nearest cliff.

Well said, usexpat - I can't abide zealots of any kind.

That's an interesting use of lettuce, admitted; but I'm not converting.

If all humans tried to convert to a veggie diet exclusively there wouldn't be enough produce to go around. The Economist has discussed this at length. So while I don't care what you eat please understand that I don't expect you to care what I eat (or wear).

BTW, where did they find a trio of such pale women? Not a tan line anywhere!

cant tan when you are in the forest hugging the trees

Are we sure the Japanese girls arent thinking their in some sort of Salad Cosplay??

Since the campaign against Dr. Taub (case: silver spring monkeys) and the caused delay of developing a cure of severely handicapped people by at least 10 years the PETA has lost any credibility.

Those sandals and the water bottle are made from petroleum products, which come from oil, which came from both plants AND animals. Those hypocrites are exploiting the carcasses of long-dead noble beasts. Shame on them! ;-)

http://www.aspousa.org/index.php/2009/07/the-sixth-extinction/

Even if you don't read the article link here, look at the pictures and notice how fish and wildlife of all kinds are dying off. Note as well (not listed) that population of the world is increasing. How long do you think this will go on until we

1) can no longer feed ourselves

2) start dying off

3) stop wasting our time with beef and wasting feed that could feed more people

I'm not actually looking forward to the prospect, I enjoy meat. But the systems that support our cavalier ways are collapsing and I'll have to mend my ways as much as anyone. Doing it now while I still have a choice to figure out what to replace it with is a good idea.

If I had land I'd at least consider a garden and a couple of chickens, who knows.

No, not a fan of PETA, too extreme, but we're ignoring scientists and biologists since the 80s on this because change goes against the establishment. BTW, the declines are measurable, and are not arguable like climate change or peak oil. We're really living in the 6th extinction. Congrats to all.

Grow a garden if you can at least, you don't need a steak a day. That would at least be a start

@sf2k "you don't need a steak a day."

Who said we had one ? And who said the PETA pin up were real vegans ? We already know they totally false ecologists as we see their queen, Pamela Silicone commuting in the most polluting cars and private jets ever invented. Also a number of their models advertised for PETA one year, and for silk and leather clothes the next season.

The scientists are now able to cultivate meat in laboratory, and there is the illness of insects so cultivating plants may become impossible. So we may have to eat lab meat in the future. Who knows ?

That said, those girls look like the Flinstones. If you can't read the boards, you will think it's a campaign to sell mammoth meat.

Who said we had one?

see American diet statistics. Not that everyone has a hamburger a day, but it might as well be.

The scientists are now able to cultivate meat in laboratory

This is disgusting. why is the solution to become aliens on our own planet? To grow at all costs?

Here's an idea: How about we live in sync with the planet instead of being the cancer that we are?

The earth can heal itself, but we are living as if we had 5 earths, not one. With obvious results.

Ah, the American statistics... but Shibuya, it's in Japan.

If we lived with nature, we'd still be in caves eating raw plants and animal, with 90% infantile mortality, life expectancy of 25 yr old. It's obvious that development of civilisation had bad effects, but humans have made nearly all the natural food they have, like cereals, veggies, fruits are all transformed, natural versions would feed really few, everything taken from nature would go exctinct like fish with only 1/10th of human population. Surely some countries are making far too many brats and needs for food are still increasing, but you really can't accuse Japan of too much natality. Converting most to vegetarianism would be a very slight and temporary improvement. That has been done in India 25 yrs ago, and they gained a huge growth of uneducated population that now wants to eat meat and dairies.

Agriculture was an invention, a progress compared to gathering wild plants, raising animals too replaced hunting. If now these techniques are becoming unconvenient, insufficient or impossible, I find that normal to look for new ways to produce food. Well, without technical progress, the other choices would be letting a part of humanity die of starvation (which we are already doing), or killing them (which is also done). PETA activists are doing absolutely nothing to help.

Someone should come by with a bucket of Italian salad dressing and throw it all over them.

I wonder if these liberal women are also opposed to the objectification of women in porn.....while they display themselves in a sexual manner. That would be about par for the hypocritical course of a modern zealot.

Are either of the two Asian girls actually Japanese? they dont look it.

Do you think they have an undergarments on? I would love to lift up a leaf for a peek.

Cos, you're confusing your fringe activist groups. PETA could give a rat's sphincter about the environment, as long as you keep those moe cows out of the slaughterhouse.

I've always wanted to wear a fur coat just so some brainless PETA drone could throw a bucket of fake blood on it. I'd ask them how many animals were killed to make the coat, then after their answer I would reply, "Congratulations, you've just caused that many more of the animals to die to replace this coat you've ruined. I hope you sleep well tonight knowing you're directly responsible for their death."

wow Cos, don't travel so far back, even 1983 would be okay (as shown in the graphs in the initial link i gave)

otherwise I see nothing but fallacy and have no idea what you're saying

The picture looks like a meat salad to me!!!

Nice bellybuttons.

Those girls look like they've been eating too many hamburgers.

You aren't by any chance labouring under the delusion that the 'domesticated farm animals' that provide your meat all live idyllic, bucolic lives in beautiful green pastures, are you?

cleo, you need to stop thinking emotionally and read better with comprehension. I did state that:

Could we come up with better ways that are more efficient to bring meat to the table and cut down on the precisous "carbon fooprint"

means that we need to come up with a better way to grow and process meat animals for our consumption. I come from a state with a very large poultry production market and I have seen those types of farms and yes they are not pretty. Resources are wasted. But that is why instead of "tilting at windmills" and telling everyone to not eat meat but to try to find better ways to farm that is not as stressful to the environment is better all around. If PETA came up with an actual "Ethical" method of soving this problem then I would say good on them.

But to just yell "Meat eating is Murder" is not going to solve anything.

Alphaape -

we need to come up with a better way to grow and process meat animals for our consumption.

And what would you consider a 'better' way? The more farming concentrates on animal welfare, the more expensive and exclusive the meat becomes. The more efficient the industry becomes at producing cheap meat in bulk, the more the animals suffer. Forget about the environment for a moment - how about meat production that is less stressful to the animals?

The ethical way of avoiding stress to animals raised for meat is - don't raise animals for meat. Don't eat meat. If you have some alternative that meets all the criteria - meat cheap enough and plentiful enough (and safe enough) for Joe Ordinary to eat regularly on the one hand, and happy, healthy animals on the other - I'm sure we'd all like to hear it. Just yelling 'But I wanna eat meat' doesn't solve anything, either.

@sf2k Why do we need to live like we're in 1983? We're already half way through 2009, sacrificing human progress and human advancement for silly notions (or romantic dreams) is kind of...

And there are many factors that go into why so many people are starving, blaming it on meat eaters (and subsequently, thinking that if the world went vegetarian it'd be okay) is very naive.

there are many factors that go into why so many people are starving

I don't think anyone is claiming that meat-eating is the one and only reason people don't have enough food to eat. Perhaps if folk put as much effort into education, cooperation and the prevention of conflict as they do into turning corn into car fuel and cow meat, we might have some real 'human advancement'. Willfully torturing animals and wasting food resources in order to produce obese people in some parts of the world while other parts starve and all parts point missiles and machetes at each other is a very, very far cry from what I would call 'advancement'.

And what would you consider a 'better' way? The more farming concentrates on animal welfare, the more expensive and exclusive the meat becomes. The more efficient the industry becomes at producing cheap meat in bulk, the more the animals suffer.

You're right about this. This is a situation where the free market, if left unregulated, would disregard animal welfare. Hopefully in developed countries, we have a chance of regulating practices that reduce stress on animals. Maybe this is where PETA and other activists could be contributing something useful?

I think people missed my previous points about vegetarianism being a moral luxury. Take Japan as a first world example, many families rely on meat and fish to provide nutrition for their children. They cannot afford to purchase enough vegan products to get the same.

Then, take developing countries as an example. In some situations, eating meat is a matter of survival. In that case, unfortunately animal welfare takes a back seat to the survival of humans.

The ethical way of avoiding stress to animals raised for meat is - don't raise animals for meat.

cleo, so you are saying just "throw the baby out with the bath water." If I knew the answers, then I wouldn't be writing on this forum.

I bet from your statements that you are probably against hunting for meat. We have encroached on many wild animal habitats (look at the cases of deer and bears crashing into houses here in Japan). So if we stop eating meat, and let those animals just go "free range" then eventually we will encroach on their habitat (unless we start to die off from being malnourished).

But I will state again, if PETA would devote their money and resources to finding a better way so that humans, who are built to eat meat, can do so without all so called inefficiency would be better for all.

so you are saying just "throw the baby out with the bath water."

Only if you're totally committed to eating meat and refuse to budge. Personally I don't see any baby in the bath water.

I bet from your statements that you are probably against hunting for meat.

For people who truly need it? Not really. For people who get their jollies out of killing furry/feathery creatures in a party with their friends, en masse, killing more than they could possibly eat in a month of Sundays? You bet.

And of course hunting for subsistence isn't really an option for people who live in cities; once all the crows, starlings, pigeons and rats are gone, you're back to square one, on a meatless diet.

So if we stop eating meat, and let those animals just go "free range" then eventually we will encroach on their habitat

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by 'those animals'. The deer and bears? They're already free range, and we are already encroaching on their habitat. Or could it be that you're envisioning a world populated by newly-released cows, pigs, sheep and battery hens? Remember they are at present artificially bred by Man - he can and does spread the sperm from one prize bull among any number of cows. Left to their own devices they would not overrun the earth, I assure you. The battery hens in particular have been bred to put on so much flesh that their little legs cannot carry them far, and running puts a fatal strain on their little hearts. They could not survive in the wild.

humans, who are built to eat meat...

Nope, we're omnivores. Built to eat whatever we can get our hands on, which when we were evolving meant mostly grains, grasses and fruit, with the occasional small grasshopper or fat bug. Humans were never built to eat hundreds of grammes of meat three times a day every day.

cleo,

For people who get their jollies out of killing furry/feathery creatures in a party with their friends, en masse, killing more than they could possibly eat in a month of Sundays? You bet.

where in my post did I ever say that I was behind killing animals for sport of for "just the heck of it?" I personally don't do it, but unlike you I come from an area where gaming is done legally and where limits are set so as to not deplete a particular animal population as well as to keep them at a managable level so that the land they live on can support them, since we (i.e. humans) have taken up much of their land with our silly little things like cities, farmland to grow our many veggies and ethanol, and chopped down their wooded habitats for the woods and other hard lumber, then let them do it.

So, since I am just a "dumb meat eater" let me see if I get you right:

in cleo's world man is bad for eating meat and growing animals in stock conditions to feed his hunger for hundreds of grams of meat three times a day. Not sure about your size, but I could probably see many grams of meat during a week, but not the amounts you say we do. as our population increases, we will need more land to grow our food. So we will make more land farm land, and if it can't support that type of natural growth we can "tame the wild" and make it grow by better irrigation methods (too bad for those little animals that live in water and don't like being piped far away from their natural habitat). once we have these larger farms to support our demand for veggies since we have weened ourselves off meat, we will use those newly freed cows to pull the plows since using modern diesel powered combines takes up too much of an carbon footprint. once we have those crops harvested, we will use our hybrid trucks to ship them to all points far and wide, and we will all be happy.

The only thing I agree with you is this:

Nope, we're omnivores. Built to eat whatever we can get our hands on, which when we were evolving meant mostly grains, grasses and fruit, with the occasional small grasshopper or fat bug.

But tell me, since you know everything, why in all those cave paintings do we see scenes of the hunt for animals? Where they just a bunch of "good ole boys" "getting their jollies out of killing furry/feathery creatures in a party with their friends, en masse, killing more than they could possibly eat in a month of Sundays?" to quote you?

Alphaape -

You didn't say you were behind killing for 'sport'. However in your last post you show that like a lot of other people you don't really make any distinction; you talk of hunting as 'gaming'.

unlike you I come from an area where....

I wonder where it is you imagine I come from. I come from a country where the 12th August is called the 'Glorious' Twelfth because it's the day fat rich chinless wonders can legally prance around the hills shooting more birds than they can carry; a country where self-styled 'guardians of the countryside' had to be legally prevented from tearing around the countryside on horseback following packs of hounds in the hopes of catching a terrified fox and watching the dogs rip it limb from limb. When they can't find foxes they make do with pet kittens.

I could probably see many grams of meat during a week, but not the amounts you say we do

It isn't what I say. According to this chart -http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/1370_per_capita_consumption_of_meat_and.html (put underlines in between the words)

per capital consumption of meat in the UK in 1999 was pork 25 kilos, poultry 26.8 kilos, beef 19.7 kilos, total nearly 200 grammes per day, or a little less than 1.5 kilos a week; in the US, the figures were 31.7 kilos, 29.4 kilos, 45.3 kilos, total nearly 300 grammes a day or a little over 2 kilos a week. Japan lags far behind with 17 kilos, 13.7 kilos, 11.7 kilos, total 116 grammes a day or a little over 800 grammes a week, still more than is nutritionally necessary and not taking into account all the seafood the Japanese consume.

as our population increases, we will need more land to grow our food

Our population cannot keep on growing ad infinitum; either it stops growing when more people start starving to death, or we act sensibly and limit it ourselves. If we stop using land to grow crops to feed to meat animals, we instantly give ourselves zonks more land to grow food for ourselves.

why in all those cave paintings do we see scenes of the hunt for animals?

It always comes back to 'the cavemen did it so we should too'. You'd think folk would be ashamed to keep making that argument, wouldn't you? I wanna regress 10,000 years.

cleo, I don't come from a place were "chinless wonders" can prance around and shoot animals, but they do have an offical school holiday in the rural areas on the first day of deer hunting season since they know most of the boys will be out with their dads trying to bag a buck.

It always comes back to 'the cavemen did it so we should too'. You'd think folk would be ashamed to keep making that argument, wouldn't you? I wanna regress 10,000 years.

That was not the point I was making, it was to the point that we as humans have all ways eaten meat, even back when we would be considered "noble savages" from what I am picking up from your postings. Obviously, if they in their ignorant bliss knew that something else besides shrubs and berries was needed then I think that probably means that nature had intended for us to eat meat (you can eat too much veggies too).

If we stop using land to grow crops to feed to meat animals, we instantly give ourselves zonks more land to grow food for ourselves.

That would also mean that we stop growing corn to make ethanol too. And since you are so good at finding facts, look up how much land is needed for grazing cattle or chickens (since you say we keep them cooped up (no pun intended) so that they are not free range). If land is being misused, it probably is being misused to expand our cities and build more roads and not for better use for farming.

Bottom line, if you don't like to eat meat, then don't. If others so choose to do so, then let them. Once again I stand by my statement, if PETA can come up with a more Ethical way to mass grow and produce meat to bring to the table then they are worthwhile. If all they can do is whine and complain and force an agenda then who needs them.

And FYI, if we did find a way to raise feed animals better, it will still take a bit of self control for individuals to not eat as much so that we will not become the "fat chinless" as you describe.

Vegetarianism beyond the budgets of many Japanese?!

Tofu, miso, nattou, and many other soy products are plentiful and cheap.

Wackos.

Why aren't they usin' their own word for 'vegetarian'?

'Cause English is more chic?

we would be considered "noble savages" from what I am picking up from your postings

You're picking up wrong. (Or maybe making it up as you go along). I don't find anything noble in being a savage. I'm all for living - responsibly - in the 21st century. I don't understand the mindset of those who hark back to the 'good old days' when life was short, savage and brutal.

I think that probably means that nature had intended for us to eat meat (you can eat too much veggies too).

As I said before, the occasional grub or bug, maybe a hamster, yes. A stag or bison shared out between the whole tribe once in a blue moon is a far cry from the 300 gm a day every day your average American chomps his way through.

It's possible to eat too much of anything, of course. But it's a whole lot easier to eat too much meat than it is to eat too many veggies. Unless the veggies are tiny new potatoes boiled and dressed in butter and chopped mint. It's all too easy to eat too many of them little rascals. :-)

That would also mean that we stop growing corn to make ethanol too.

Not necessarily, it wouldn't. Food and fuel are two separate problems (or should be - ethanol from corn means burning food instead of eating it, which I don't think is a good thing.) But it's hardly relevant here.

If land is being misused, it probably is being misused to expand our cities and build more roads and not for better use for farming.

Probably? You're basing your whole argument on probably?? Why not check a few facts and figures before banging on the keyboard, instead of relying on preconceived ideas?

a more Ethical way to mass grow and produce meat to bring to the table

That's a contradiction in terms. There is no way meat can be mass-produced in large enough quantities and cheaply enough to keep the world population chugging along on 300 gm a day while at the same time ensuring an acceptable level of welfare for the animals. If you look after the animals properly, production goes down and the price goes up. Push for low prices and high volume, and the animals suffer.

Cleo: I admire your committment to forcing us to accept your chosen lifestyle but I'm not having any of it. If your PERSONAL choice to be a vegeitatrian makes you feel that you are above us barbarians than good on you. By the way do you wear leather or drink milk or eat eggs or are you a strict vegan? If you utilize any animal products and I mean any then you are not being honest with yourself. The leather in your shoes came from a cow that made my burger and you are still part of the cycle you are campaigning so hard against.

I admire your committment to forcing us to accept your chosen lifestyle

Forcing? No one's forcing anyone to do anything. It's called having a discussion. If you feel you're being forced to do anything, the feeling must come from your own insecurity. Nothing to do with me.

I don't own any leather shoes. I eat free-range eggs. Milk is a problem, but without dairy I'd have a helluvajob keeping Mr cleo on board. Compromise sucks, dunnit?

That's a contradiction in terms.

Mmm, no it's not, Cleo. Your thinking is very black and white. Allow yourself to see the shades of grey. It will open up a whole new world for you.

abromofo -

You're promoting grey ethics?

I explained why it was a contradiction in terms. Perhaps you'd like to explain the wonderful shades of grey you see in mass-produced ethical meat from happy animals.

Saving the Planet.

Sounds messianic.

Cleo, I agree with abromofo, you are thinking of this in absolutes without nuance. I'll state again that personal choices are just that. In my house we buy our meat and fish from local sources and we don't consume dairy as both my children are allergic. Do I think these choices are better for the planet or urge others to do the same? No, I don't care it's simply how we choose to live our lives. I agree with you that mass farming of animals (if you look into chickens it's the worst) is appalling. However I don't think meat consumption is the issue it's where you get your meat and whether your willing to pay more for meat that comes from animals that are well treated.

cleo..be thy vegan or not?

Not vegan, vegetarian.

(thy is the possessive adjective - I think you mean Art thou vegan? unless you're from the West Country, in which case you're forgiven the be. :-))

Those crazy PETA chicks sure are stupid standing out in public wearing nothing but vegetation. But what is important is not that we should all stop eating meat, but that they look pretty hot wearing lettuce :-)

I would eat the lettuce off those girls though!

The chick in the middle needs some sun, but you get me some salt and a couple of other veggies, I'd eat.

I'd like to recommend a really good book for these flakes. Not everyone is meant to be vegetarian and not everyone is meant to be filling up on meat either. The book is "Eat Right for your Blood type" by Dr.Peter J. D'Adamo. This would help the Omnivores vs. Vegetarian debate to die down considerably.

They are standing at the Shibuya intersection with that costume, all men would become wolves.