2024 transfer of Okinawa-based Marines to Guam on course: U.S. Marines

They have loads of planes and helicopters and ships. It should only take 24 hours, not years.

Rodney @ 8.20am

Obviously you do not have a logistical background.

Cue the “occupation” rhetoric!!! 3,2,1….

Good ! for Okinawa with so much fewer U.S.A. troops after so many years occupation there.

A long-awaited locomotive has finally started to move.   Initially they promised to move out 9,000 active elements of Okinawa-based Marines, but has changed the figure midway to 4,000. At any rate, this entails to mean the Henoko new base, the so-called replacement for Futenma, now under construction in Henoko, Nago City, Okinawa, to house MV-22 Ospreys is a white elephant.

Above all, the U.S. has no innate right to demand for a replacement for Futenma in exchange of its return, for, as I have been arguing, Futenma sits on illegally confiscated plots of private land.

Futenma sits on illegally confiscated plots of private land.

A good lesson in the costs of starting a world war ! Japan's barbarities in China set the stage for Mao to take control and Japan's colonization of Korea set the stage for the division of Korea. Japan left Asia a complete mess with hostile powers to the northwest, directly west and to the southwest. Now you think the US can walk away and nothing bad will happen. The US pretty much withdrew all but 500 instructors from South Korea by 1950 and we see how well that worked out. The Norks saw weakness and attacked. Hard lesson learned, or would you have preferred if the US had simply abandoned South Korea to communist conquest in 1950? That's what it sounds like to me. But it didn't work out that way and the US and Japan both have mortal enemies in the region. The US would have no reason to station any forces in Japan if Japan hadn't left Asia in such a mess. I'm tired of hearing this bellyaching.

@reasonwisdomnippon

You are proficient in English. You gotta read the WW2 history from non-Japanese sources and contrast the information.

It might surprise you.

Desert Tortoise,

I think your preposterous view is shared by lots of your conservative compatriots. The U.S. military presence in Okinawa and in Japan in general is the end result of the war Japan started by attacking Pearl Harbor by surprise. So, the U.S. is justified to keep bases in Okinawa. Compared with atrocities committed by Imperial Japan Army, the violation of law committed by the U.S. invasion forces such as usurping private lands is minuscule and negligible. Really? 

If so, all these treaty documents, such as the 1951 Japan-U.S. Security Treaty and the 1971 Okinawa Reversion Agreement, are complete fake and shenanigans to camouflage the hard reality that the World War II occupation is still ongoing.

History or not the facts are Economically Japan will loose revenue from 4,000 marines spending their pay, the logistics to support them and maybe Russia will invade this time. You can watch your women be raped by Russians who look down on Japanese as inferior.

As an American taxpayer I am happy to see Japan raise defense spending so we have a little less of the world to police. I wish we would pull out completely so the Japanese can look at China and Russia solo. Do they buy Toyota's? I think they will be cheaper with forced labor.

The ridiculous complaints over noise etc will look silly when you are a colony.

Jim Dandy...

History or not the facts are Economically Japan will loose revenue from 4,000 marines spending their pay, the logistics to support them and maybe Russia will invade this time. You can watch your women be raped by Russians who look down on Japanese as inferior.

They spend most of their pitiful wages on base, where they are often confined due to some of them raping the locals or committing other crimes.

Goodbye, you won't be missed by most of the Okinawan population.

The U.S. spends about $25 billion for all of its foreign or overseas bases out of a defense budget of about $750 billion. If all the bases were closed and the troops returned home the savings would be very small. The equipment is still needed and the troops still need paying.

Can you imagine your country paying for another country to build and relocate their own troops to their own country?

After reading all the comments i think the major problem is the americans way of thinking.U do have problems with u r own troops behaviours and instead of trying to fix thoses problems u r trying to blame the locals who are suffering on the hands of thoses troops for years.

Learn how to be civilized and then there will be no problems.

Obviously you do not have a logistical background.

Neither does the US military. Afghanistan anybody?

Jim Dandy,

History or not the facts are Economically Japan will loose revenue from 4,000 marines spending their pay, the logistics to support them and maybe Russia will invade this time.

So, you want to say the Marines' withdrawal from Okinawa will badly affect the local economy. Have you been to Mihama American Village in Chatan or New Naha Business District in Naha? The areas were used exclusively by U.S. forces but returned to Okinawa because methinks they were considered not very important strategically. But note how thriving both areas have become now!

In the case of New Naha Business District, the economic impact it brings to the local economy is 32 times more than it used to be, that is, from 5.2 billion yen to 165 billion yen, and employment 92 times, according to Gov. Tamaki.

Mao was communist, trained by Russia, brainwashed by Russia, communism is Russian/Jewish idea, not Japanese.

Mao was self taught if that is the word for it. He had his own ideas about communism in the context of China. European / Russian communism appealed to factory workers unhappy with their lot in capitalist countries. The word Soviet means a workers committee. China didn't have much in the way of industrialization and thus had only a very small cadre of . China was populated mostly by rural peasants often under the control of local warlords and applied the ideas of Marx and Engels differently.

Chiang Kai-shek was actually closer to the Russians, spent time there, sought military advice from them and modeled the KMT after the Soviet Communist Party. Chiang's son was educated in the USSR during WWII.

Neither does the US military. Afghanistan anybody?

The US and NATO forces in Afghanistan had great logistics support. The problems there were political and social.

I think your preposterous view is shared by lots of your conservative compatriots. The U.S. military presence in Okinawa and in Japan in general is the end result of the war Japan started by attacking Pearl Harbor by surprise. So, the U.S. is justified to keep bases in Okinawa. Compared with atrocities committed by Imperial Japan Army, the violation of law committed by the U.S. invasion forces such as usurping private lands is minuscule and negligible. Really? 

No. That is not the reason. The reason to keep bases in Okinawa is the post WWII situation and in particular the regional situation after the DPRK invaded ROK. The US was prepared to leave the region and had withdrawn all but 500 instructors from South Korea. The US demobilized much of their military after WWII, decommissioned hundreds of ships, abandoned military airfields all over the US, and sent soldiers home. The US was tired of fighting. Nobody imagined North Korea would invade South Korea and even after UN forces pushed the North Koreans back, nobody was expecting the Chinese to intervene. Add in a layer of conflict with the Soviets in Europe and a war against the French by communists in Indochina plus daily dogfights between Nationalist and Communist Chinese air forces over the Formosa Strait and you have a situation where having bases on that first island chain becomes strategically important. It is even moreso today with the belligerence of China and their rapidly increasing military power.

What I am saying is that Japans wars of conquest in Asia, and particularly their colonization of China and Korea set the stage for the post WWII situation that unfortunately for all of us now requires the US to keep strong forces in the region, unless you want to be ruled by the Chinese communists.

After reading all the comments i think the major problem is the americans way of thinking.U do have problems with u r own troops behaviours and instead of trying to fix thoses problems u r trying to blame the locals who are suffering on the hands of thoses troops for years.

Learn how to be civilized and then there will be no problems.

I am of the opinion the US has addressed the problem. Reading this news site daily the past few years I have seen more instances of JSDF personnel committing crimes against girlfriends and others than I have read of crimes by US service personnel in Okinawa or anywhere else in Japan.

Sounds very much like an indirect invitation for China to Taiwan. After that withdrawal you may invade undisturbed, because we then without losing too much face can say sorry we haven’t enough near resources for defending Taiwan anymore.

Desert Tortoise,

Wow, you've brought up a chicken-and-egg controversy. You know the Meiji government of Japan worked hard to catch up and surpass Western powers. It emulated Western colonialism very minutely and diligently, and learned how to fight modern war. The end result was the two atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The Meiji government's endeavor to build a great empire after Western precedents was crushed to the nail in 1945.

The gist of your argument is that Japan is to blame for the U.S. to have to maintain its large military presence in the region to prevent that from happening again. In other words, the U.S. military is here to not let the genie out of the bottle.

 So, the claim that U.S. bases are planted here for the defense and security of Japan is a sheer lie.

Benefits the national security of China.

Desert TortoiseDec. 13  12:27 pm JST

Futenma sits on illegally confiscated plots of private land.

A good lesson in the costs of starting a world war ! Japan's barbarities in China set the stage for Mao to take control and Japan's colonization of Korea set the stage for the division of Korea.

What CCP/DPRK propaganda source do you subscribe to? The Chinese civil war was already going on before Japan's invasion of China. A truce between the Chang Kai Shek and Mao, plus gobs of US aid is what stopped Japan in China. But it was Mao's troops that overwhelmingly defeated the Kuomingtang as soon as Japan collapsed.

And Japan had nothing to do with the division of Korea. In fact, if Japan had not annexed Korea in 1910, Russia would have taken it and the whole Korean Penninsula woud look like North Korea today. This is why both the US and UK supported Japan's annexation. The sole cause for the division is Russia (USSR) and China (PRC) both of whom still protect and back the Kim regime to this day.

Honestly, you really ruin your military credibility with nonsese like this. Futenma, unlike many US bases that simply took over from the Imperial Japanese forces, was built from the ground up. And over time it's location has become incongruous with the local population buildup, Which is why the US and Japan have been working for decades to eliminate Futenmaand move. A project hindered by the ati-US/JPN crowd.

What CCP/DPRK propaganda source do you subscribe to? The Chinese civil war was already going on before Japan's invasion of China. A truce between the Chang Kai Shek and Mao, plus gobs of US aid is what stopped Japan in China. But it was Mao's troops that overwhelmingly defeated the Kuomingtang as soon as Japan collapsed.

You have history backwards. In 1937 Nationalist forces were on the verge of defeating Mao, but because Japanese forces were advancing south Chiang was forced by his own people to disengage from fighting Mao and turn their army towards fighting the Japanese. Absent the Japanese invasion Mao would have been defeated. The Nationalists under Dr. Sun defeated the Qing and after that defeated a warlord who tried to proclaim himself emperor. It was during this time that Mao and Zho Enlai started up a communist rebellion. They were almost defeated when Japanese forces moved south out of Manchuoko.

All through WWII Mao hid in the north, you know that Long March, more like the Long Retreat, and bided his time until the Japanese were defeated. Mao in fact told the Japanese where Nationalist units were so the Japanese could grind down the army of his opponent while he rested his own troops, seldom if ever fought the Japanese and waited for the Soviets to push the Japanese out. Only after Chiang's Nationalist forces were thoroughly worn out by fighting Japan and after the Japanese were defeated and expelled did Mao bring is freshly armed and rest troops out to battle the war weary Nationalists.

And Japan had nothing to do with the division of Korea.

Nonsense. If Japan had not colonized Korea there would have been no reason for US and Soviet forces to occupy it after a brutal and unnecessary world war caused in large part by Japan. Korea would have been a unified nation at peace with its neighbors if Japan had left it alone in the late 1800s. No, Japan owns that one too.

Desert TortoiseToday  12:27 pm JST

And Japan had nothing to do with the division of Korea.

Nonsense. If Japan had not colonized Korea there would have been no reason for US and Soviet forces to occupy it

Nonsense. Soviet forces never occupied the Korean Pennisula, they provided arms, aid and fighter pilots to the Kim regime in 1950. China (PRC) is the one who sent actual troops.

The United States and UK supported Japan's annexation of the Korean Penninsula. So we own that too? You're playing 6th grade level "if this if that".

Both the US and UK supported Japan's annexation because after the 1900 Boxer Rebellion all the foreign troops that entered China withdrew, except for Russia which kept it's forces in Northeast China. Dalian was even a Russian city until they lost it in the Russso-Japanese War of 1905. Japan's entire agenda towards the Korean Penninsula was to counter what was perceived, by both Japan and the West as Russian expansion aims in the fareast.

voiceofokinawaToday  08:30 am JST

 So, the claim that U.S. bases are planted her for the defense and security of Japan is a sheer lie.

It is not a lie. The US bases in Japan exist both for the defense of and security of the host country and the United States. As do the US bases that are located in some 79 other countries.

The US bases in Japan do not exist to prevent Japan from remilitarizing. In fact, it was the US that literally "forced" Japan to create the JSDF in 1950. Whatever view that existed in 1945 about keeping a lid on both Japan and Germany from remilitarizing went out the window in the face of Soviet expansion, and the establishment of the PRC (China) in 1949.

OssanAmerica (Dec. 14 01:00 pm JST):

If you claim that U.S. bases in Okinawa are "both for the defense and security of the host country and the United States", you must think that Futenma's replacement now under construction in Henoko is in line with this purpose: the construction is necessary for the defense and security of both countries.

I've been arguing against it, citing three reasons. First, a large contingent of Okinawa-based Marines are to relocate to Guam because, they reason, China has completed developing intermediate-range ballistic missiles that will put Okinawa within their range; second, Tokyo and Washington have signed an agreement that primary responsibility to defend outlying islands rests with JSDF, not USFJ; third, the Marine Corps is contemplating to transform itself from a traditional expeditionary force to high-tech missile units.

Could you kindly refute this claim of mine and affirm that Futenma's replacement in Henoko is absolutely necessary for the defense and security of both Japan and the U.S.?

Nonsense. Soviet forces never occupied the Korean Pennisula,

They most certainly did. Soviet forces entered Korea before the US was able to put any forces there. Soviet forces began amphibious landings in Korea by 14 August and rapidly took over the northeast, and on 16 August they landed at Wonsan. On 24 August, the Red Army reached Pyongyang. US forces did not arrive in the south until 8 September. Soviet troops advanced so rapidly the US government became anxious that they would occupy the whole of Korea. On 10 August, the US government decided to propose the 38th parallel as the dividing line between a Soviet occupation zone in the north and a US occupation zone in the south. The parallel was chosen as it would place the capital Seoul under American control. To the surprise of the Americans, the Soviet Union immediately accepted the division. The agreement was incorporated into General Order No. 1, approved on 17 August 1945, for the surrender of Japan.

The US bases in Japan do not exist to prevent Japan from remilitarizing. In fact, it was the US that literally "forced" Japan to create the JSDF in 1950

While the US encouraged Japan to build up a self defense force, fearing their vulnerability to Soviet invasion and a growing Soviet navy, there were some pretty serious limits on what Japanese forces could do, imposed with an eye on preventing Japan from being able to deploy their forces far from their home islands. Examples are a lack of replenishment ships for the JMSDF, tying them to home bases in Japan, a lack of amphibious lift to deny Japan the ability to attack neighbors, and having the support equipment, jet start units and the like, for the JASDF built into hard stands on their airfields where the same equipment in US forces is portable and air transportable. Japanese air lift was likewise restricted. A US Navy or USAF squadron can pack up everything it needs to operate, load it on transport aircraft and deploy anywhere in the world. The same equipment for a JASDF squadron is bolted to the ground on a Japanese airfield and in any event Japan doesn't have enough large transport aircraft to support a major overseas deployment. The only way the JDSF could deploy far from home was with US logistics support, meaning they would be tied to US forces and not operating independently. OTOH you could slot a JMSDF warship into a US battle group and it would operate seamlessly, no different than a US warship.

All of this was done so Japan's Asian neighbors could sleep well at night because whether you like it our not, Japan is not viewed as repentant for their WWII barbarities and until the threat of China eclipsed Japan, many Asians still feared a resurgent Japan coming back to repeat WWII. Germany has atoned for WWII and is still distrusted by some European nations. Japan has not atoned like Germany has and until recently was widely distrusted in Asia.

I've been arguing against it, citing three reasons. First, a large contingent of Okinawa-based Marines are to relocate to Guam because, they reason, China has completed developing intermediate-range ballistic missiles that will put Okinawa within their range; second, Tokyo and Washington have signed an agreement that primary responsibility to defend outlying islands rests with JSDF, not USFJ; third, the Marine Corps is contemplating to transform itself from a traditional expeditionary force to high-tech missile units.

As usual you are wrong. The Marine Corps’ realignment was born out of massive protests following the 1995 rape of a 12-year-old Okinawan girl by two Marines and a sailor. Locals also demanded the closure of Marine Corps Air Station Futenma due to safety concerns in a densely packed urban area and sought a smaller U.S. military footprint there. The compromise worked out with the Japanese government was for the air base at Futenma to move to its new location and for 4100 Marines stationed on Okinawa to move elsewhere. Most are going to Guam and some to Hawaii. The Marines very much plan to be part of the defense of the small islands in the Ryukyus and train with Japanese forces for their defense. SSGNs carry Marine detachments that practice small unit landings on these islands. Chinese ballistic missiles have nothing to do with the move as Chinese missiles can just as easily hit Guam. Those same SSGNs can pound any Chinese missile sites btw if it comes to that, but having those forces in a sub underwater tends to deter China from any adventures.

Desert Tortoise,

Thank you for volunteering to answer my questions for OssanAmerica. But you are not directly answering my questions. Instead, you explain the course of events and the cause that led to the construction of Futenma's replacement in Henoko.

A question: What is an SSGN? A nuclear-powered submarine designed to carry Marines to hot spots?

SSGN: The first four units of the Ohio class ballistic missile subs were converted into cruise missile submarines. Two of their 24 Trident missile tubes were removed to allow installation of facilities for Marines, their inflatable boats and weapons, and the ability for special forces/EOD divers to exit and enter the sub while submerged through an air lock. The remaining 22 tubes carry 7 Tomahawk cruise missiles each.

As for Futenma, the Marines rely on their own organic air power and vertical lift. It is how they fight. Their last amphibious assault was a 650 km assault conducted entirely by air, from their ships in the North Arabian Sea all the way to southern Afghanistan. No landing craft. General Mattis decided to leave all of their artillery on the ships, move the battalion by helicopter, refueling in flight by Marine Corps KC-130 tankers (which now also carry air to ground weapons like Viper Strike and even Hellfire) and rely on Marine Corps air power instead of gun artillery for close support. It was the longest ranged amphibious assault in history. The Marines have had organic air power almost since the invention of the airplane. It is integral to how they fight and thus how they train so having an air base close to a Marine base is essential.

There is generally an SSGN with some Marines or Seals in the region able to put a landing party on, oh say, the Senkaku Islands if intelligence indicates the Chinese are planning to put some troops there, with the idea being the Chinese won't land on those islands if US forces are already there. The SSGNs can't be tracked and can show up unannounced. The Chinese know they exist and are out there so they have to take them into account in their planning. It is a form of deterrence.

Desert Tortoise.

Is what you say here the reason why the new base must be built in Henoko by all means? The active elements of the Marines and their support units can stay outside Okinawa, can't they?

Is what you say here the reason why the new base must be built in Henoko by all means? The active elements of the Marines and their support units can stay outside Okinawa, can't they?

Where is the deterrence? It is a much simpler thing for an enemy, oh say like China, to invade and undefended island than one that has a sizeable land force established in well defended positions with organic air power. Okinawa with no Marines on it looks like Bambi to a mountain lion, not just easy pickings but too tempting to pass up. If the Marines have to mobilize from Guam and fly in they might not have a friendly airfield to land on or a friendly port for their ships. They would have to fight their way in against a newly entrenched enemy force. Not a pretty picture and a guarantee of high civilian casualties. The Battle of Okinawa all over again.

Okinawa and the other islands Japan possesses are how the Marines are going to help the US Navy and JMSDF keep the PLA bottled up. The new Littoral Regiments can land small forces on islands and set up surface to surface missiles to deny PLAN units the ability to use the straits between those islands, or coordinate with naval units to catch PLAN units in a crossfire.

Desert Tortoise,

Where is the deterrence?

There is none, as far as Futenma’s replacement is concerned. Futenma's replacement at Henoko doesn't contribute much to the deterrence and security of Japan, never at all. Should there occur a contingency between Japan and China over outlying islands, it is JSDF that has primary responsibility to deal with it, not USFJ, which is stipulated so in a bilateral agreement.

Futenma sits on illegally confiscated plots of private land.

Actually my understanding is that the land was originally confiscated by the Imperial Airforce and that the US took it over and actually paid rent.

The Marines in Okinawa serve a very valid purpose and are key to the Defense of Japan and S. Korea. The idea that you can have them train here and there and then put them together and expect them to function well in a combined-arms environment is foolish in the extreme.

If the world was a peaceful place and the DORKS and the Chinese could be trusted to stay in their borders we could all sing kumbaya and inbibe the narcotic of our respective choice.

But the world is dangerous. The region needs the very specialized amphibious skils the Marine Corp possesses and they need a place to train as a combined air-sea-land unit.

Nemo: Dec. 15 05:09 pm JST 

Actually my understanding is that the land was originally confiscated by the Imperial Airforce and that the US took it over and actually paid rent.

USA Kadena Base's predecessor was IJA Air Wing's Central Airfield (the area: 473,170 m² )

it was built quickly in September 1944 in the face of a looming war. The land it sat was supposedly loaned to IJA, but the payment was never made. On April 1, 1945, the joint U.S. invasion forces took it with ease because at the beginning of the battle there was no counteroffensive from the IJA Okinawa defense force. As soon as they obtained the IJA airfield, the invasion forces repaired the bomb-shelled air strip by rush job in order to be able to bombard cities in mainland Japan.  

After the war, the old IJA Central Airfield was expanded by the occupation forces by freely encroaching upon adjacent villages and farmland while area residents were herded in camps like POWs. Renamed as Kadena Air Base, it now extends 19,855,000 m² , almost twice as big as the erstwhile IJA Central Airfield.

Nemo, again:

You suggest the U.S. forces were benevolent enough to pay rents for the land they used. No, you're wrong. No payment was made until 1953 when the Tochiren (Federation of Landowners Association) was formed and demanded for rents. But it was said at the time that the rent was no worth than a bottle of Coca Cola per tsubo (3.3 m² ) .

After the 1972 reversion, Tokyo took charge of all U.S. bases and facilities, profusely paying rents to the landowners in order for USFJ to operate smoothly without any hitch.

Kadena Air Base was encircled by human chains three times in the past, demanding for its immediate closure or at least for the reduction of noise pollution suffered by area residents. As for the noise pollution, the 17,155-person plaintiff has filed a lawsuit, demanding for a ban on early/late-hour flight exercises. But the appeal for the ban on early/late-hour flight exercises was turned down, ruling instead that the government must pay a certain amount of damages to persons concerned.