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2,100 people sue Asahi Shimbun over 'comfort women' stories

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Right-wingers, however, say the women were common prostitutes engaged in a commercial exchange, and are fighting a vigorous rear-guard batRtle to alter the narrative.

Having seen many interviews over the years with some of these women including nurses and nuns from Australia, this assertion that all the women were common prostitutes is just laughable...

35 ( +37 / -4 )

This is the most ridiculous things I have seen recently. I suppose the 1923 Tokyo Massacre of Koreans did not happen either. They make lies and they even believe in their own lies.

34 ( +36 / -2 )

Asahi should be sued for not using the proper term "sex slaves".

So, when are the Japanese going to speak out and take a stand against these right wing nationalists?

It's awfully quiet in the room chirp

20 ( +26 / -6 )

Some attorneys are busy making money. In USA, you can sue if you are victims. Are these people all former sex slaves? How old are each of plaintiffs? District Court only have judisdiction related to the district. If comfpot wpmem were used in Tokyo, that can hand,e. Did comfort women had to serve in Tokyo? Sound like they were comfortt men. No newspapers will consider ad even Asahi is gypped. Papers don't want to lose ad by Nintendo, Nissan, Toyota. Beside that, papers don;t want to lose subscribers/ They have been victims of online news popularity for quite a while. Mewspaper ad in USA? Major paper? Where?

-9 ( +6 / -14 )

More than 2,000 people are suing the liberal Asahi newspaper to demand that it place advertisements in U.S. and European newspapers, apologising for its coverage of wartime sex slavery, saying it has stained Japan's reputation, local media said Thursday

Now who has stained Japan's reputation? And who is still staining Japan's reputation? It's certainly not the Asahi newspaper.

32 ( +35 / -4 )

Last month, when the 8,700 individuals filed a similar lawsuit against Asahi, there was a discussion around this issues in this forum. I can well imagine the same conversation will be had and similar comments will be made regarding this latest lawsuit.

Without getting into the comfort women issue itself, I would be shocked if a Japanese court found a legal basis for ruling in favor of the plaintiffs here. Conversely, if the court did, it would speak volumes regarding the maturity of legal principles in Japan.

13 ( +15 / -2 )

Despite a dearth of official records, mainstream historians say up to 200,000 women, many from Korea but also from China, Indonesia, the Philippines and Taiwan, served Japanese soldiers in military brothels called “comfort stations”.

Kind of hard to have official records when the Army burned them all. Use what happened at the start of the US occupation of Japan as a comparison. The remainder of the Japanese high command had "comfort stations" set up in Tokyo to "service" the US servicemen, just as they did in Korea and other SE Asian countries, with the intent of keeping the US servicemen away from the "common" Japanese women.

Japan did it to themselves, and they expect people to believe that they didnt do it in other places?

I want some of whatever they are drinking.

21 ( +25 / -4 )

Same ol', same ol'.

Like I said before, some people never learn (from history and the facts).

Kick'em out of court and someone should sue them for hate speeech and fascist propaganda.

But of course this will never happen, not in this society.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

In Glendale, CA (near where i come from), there is a stautue of a "sex slave". Got lots of local media coverage there in southern CA. The damage has already been done. Filing against Asahi Newspaper wont change public opinion there, it would only look like a cover-up.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

Every historian owes it to himself to go back and catch up on new findings, new research and new documents to get a better understanding of the past. Historians have a duty to find and report what is truth today. And they must always be ready to modify, to update, the truth. But we must never look back.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Some.Japanese should start.filing lawsuits against the likes.of Ishihara, the " apartheid is a good example for Japan " Sono and.other right wing douchebags for damaging Japan's reputation then.

12 ( +17 / -5 )

Why let the truth get in the way of a good law suit?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

There is a lot of evidence that Imperial Japan did these things. I accept this as history and the CURRENT Japan is not responsible by what the Imperial Japanese did 70 years ago. The US dismantled that government so all those atrocities are null and void in for me in this day an age.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Only the truth hurts...

6 ( +8 / -2 )

They should accept the reality which the had done in the past. Why not conduct their unbiased interview to the remaining alive victims from the different countries. And they themselves will discover their horrifying histories from the past. This will not be resolved by saying those women were wartime prostitutes. What is done is done, past is past, past mistakes deserves an apology and Japan should move on.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Every now and then you hear of a fake Jewish holocaust survivor, or someone who said they fought with the Green Berets in Vietnam or a firefighter on 9/11.

It doesn't negate the truth.

A child can understand that. It's sad but a little scary that thousands of adult Japanese can't.

But let's face it, there are two kinds of revisionist. One honestly doesn't know because of ignorance. - I've talked to many Japanese who honestly think that the Japanese govt and army were perfect gentlemen during the war as opposed to Americans who were there bad guys.

On the other hand, the more academic types obviously know the truth but don't want to admit it.

If a govt, can set up Unit 731, is it really hard to believe that there were comfort women who suffered?

8 ( +10 / -2 )

So, the Japanese should grow up and accept their past not continually deny it- that is why sleeping dogs won't lie.......

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Despite a dearth of official records

.. you mean except for the accounts from allied military figures, collaborating documents from independent observers, the Kwatung Japanese Imperial army documents, the Tokyo Trials (aka IMTFE) Japanese Imperial army documents... and of course let's not forget the official statements from the actual victims, which included women from over a dozen countries, including several Dutch women.

... This reporter has to be joking if they think they can publish this sort of blatant lie unchallenged. There is absolutely NO "dearth of official records". Many records were destroyed, making exact numbers difficult to establish, but the existence of these sex slaves is beyond question.

This would be like claiming that the holocaust never happened because we can't track down the name of every single victim. It is utterly ridiculous.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

This is the most ridiculous things I have seen recently.

Except of course for the 8,700 people, including lawmakers and professors, who filed a similar suit last month; as well as the two Japanese consulate folks in Hawaii who barged in on the writer to lecture him about history; and, of course, the fact that the Japanese goverment is going to launch a massive PR campaign to put their atrocities in a more favorable light. Sorry, but nothing Japan does to try to run from its past surprises me anymore. They are fixated on wanting everyone to believe their country could not have possibly done the things it did, simply so they can convince themselves of it. Then they can 100% believe they were victims. Easily the most childish behavior of a society and government I can recall.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

I guess this is an exception to the belief that Japanese people have an aversion for filing lawsuits. And for "hurt feelings" yet.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Yeah...and Hitler stained Germany's reputation too? These people should visit the comfort women first hand and just listen...just listen.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

They also claim that the paper’s reports contributed to the drive to build statues of former “comfort women” in California and other U.S. locations

No, that came from 1. the fact that there were sex slaves, and 2. the fact that there was a strong Korean (and maybe Chinese) lobby. Actually, this kind of lawsuit is going to lead to more statues, I think.

They argued that the Asahi’s historical reports on the so-called “comfort women” system were instrumental in forging global opinion

People outside Japan, sorry to say, mostly don't read the Asahi. The historical reports were from soldiers, administrators, and researchers of EVERY country fighting Japan, and some soldiers and administrators fighting with Japan. Certainly there were prostitutes as well, but that doesn't make the sex slave issue vanish.

who wants a more sympathetic telling of Japan’s history

Generally, the world view of Japan today is pretty good, but history is history. It's true the victors in any war get a chance to put some spin on how great they were, and how bad the enemy was, but Japan gave the victors an awful lot of things to work with. Japan has moved on from its wartime past, and has become a country the world respects. Don't spoil that.

9 ( +9 / -1 )

And every single one of these people who are involved in this law suit cast Japan in a bad light around the world and should be VERY ashamed of themselves for the scumbags they are. Shame on these people! They are completely disgusting.

15 ( +20 / -5 )

I don't get these people. They will sue because a paper wrote what happened, and they even pulled back from what really happened. Yet, when it comes to say the US military and their role in post war Japan, and the current situation in Okinawa, they will claim that the US military is responsible for most of the rapes and sexual crimes. So I guess it's ok for them to say everyone else's military does bad things to women, but the IJA and the military of Japan in WW2 was there to liberate the people and to treat them as equals.

I would ask that these 2,100 take a look at how the Koreans were treated when under colonial rule by Japan, and better yet, ask why that there still is a distinction used for ethnic Koreans who have lived in Japan for generations before I go off and sue a newspaper for writing a story about what happened in a war in the past.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

Gratuitous litigation should be a crime in itself. The court would be nuts to hear such a case.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Let's pretend these atrocities never happened and Japan is some kind of superior state, especially amongst its Asian peers.

Well, Japan, you're not. You have blood on your hands too and the more these right-wing clowns dig their heels in the more the international community will question what Japan is trying to hide.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

the Asahi’s historical reports on the so-called “comfort women” system were instrumental in forging global opinion that the Japanese state and its military were involved in organising a formalised system of sex slavery.

"global opinion" or "globally recognized fact"?

Saying it isn't true will never make it so if in fact, it was true.

3 ( +3 / -1 )

The revisionists have a Streisand effect in their hand.

The more noise they make out of it, the more people are aware of such atrocities and other people trying to whitewash history.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

It will take for a long time. I think they did this as class action. So, 2100 individual personal data related to issue. That will include if they were a comfort women during WW II etc. How Asahi article affected their emotion. They have to produce reports by pstchiarists as more than one is required for one problem.

-5 ( +2 / -6 )

"which they say led to their mental distress."

LOL. I mean, are you serious? Actually its not laughable, its very twisted, like dealing with an infantile mentality

So let me get this straight. All the thousands who were massacred in order speed up the process of subjation for the greater asian coprosperity load of crap, did those souls ever get an apology for the extreme discomfort and mental stress they suffered? Their lives snuffed out for some facist idea (the greater good?) how about their families? Take down all the monuments all over Asia because some nutter feels uncomfortable? I agree; the more these nuts keep at it, the worse it gets for the plausabilty of their case (another chasing ones tail syndrome) I know what they are doing, they are riding this generations wave of ignorance of these events and working themselves into a new frenzy over it. Seen that, been there, cant fool me.

Speaking of mental distress; the aparthied conditions that many gaijin endure in Japan, thats ok? They are somehow not human, therefore not entilited to any equality?

Its laughable, insanity at every level.

7 ( +11 / -5 )

Only the truth hurts...

Only false accusation hurts tremendously.

-27 ( +2 / -28 )

I see all the usual knee-jerk reactions from the usual characters. Though it shall be futile and will again get me downvotes, I retain my position - I see no reason why anybody that's confident in the orthodox position of the world should see this as a negative development.

The "revisionists" (though really comfort women became an issue quite late in the WWII history game, so it is arguable that they are the revisionists, not our plaintiffs today) are willing to place their beliefs in a court, willing to come out for a Decisive Engagement, willing to endure your knee-jerk insults.

Give a little respect for those who are willing to actually pledge something for their beliefs - it is more than you are doing for yours on this issue, and look forward to crushing them in an avalanche of evidence.

That is, if you can. I actually look forward to seeing this fight and think it will be a shame and will just delay the confrontation if again the West applies ill-advised irrational pressure against this. Send your evidence, not your ire.

Over and out.

-16 ( +4 / -19 )

crustpunkerFeb. 20, 2015 - 09:32AM JST

the Asahi's historical reports on the so-called "comfort women" system were instrumental in forging global opinion that the Japanese state and its military were involved in organising a formalised system of sex slavery.

"global opinion" or "globally recognized fact"?

Saying it isn't true will never make it so if in fact, it was true.

Asahi found and admitted that the "reports" were fabrication. There is no reason to believe in the lies.

Why would "fact" or "truth", as you say, come out of lies? Saying it isn't a lie will never make it not so, if in fact, it was a lie.

The party who lied should restore the thruth.

-10 ( +6 / -15 )

2,100 people need a new less litigious hobby.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@tina, CH3 and Kazuaki,

As usual, the usual. The usual chase the tail responses of nothing happened, and "we" have the proof that nothing happened, you dont and therefore all the monuments that were dedicated to the lives lost during the facist quest for control must be dismantled, all stories told by the descendants of those slaughtered and enslaved disqualified, and all the otherwise factual open source and closed source evidence disqualified. Why? Because the nut brigade says so.

What a disgrace.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

5petals,

I dont think you get the point. Japan is not arguing that these sex workers ever existed. Japan is arguing the point if they were forced or not. I am sure there were some cases where few of these poor girls were tricked by the broker into becoming a sex trader ( sold by their parents etc) but Japan did not forcefully grab random girls out of the street. Japan is not ISIS you know...

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

"The party who lied should restore the truth"..? This sounds like an attempt through pretense to persuade readers who are unfamiliar with this story that the Asahi articles were the only basis for the Comfort Women Sex Slavery case.

Not gonna work, though.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

freedom of the press is in the constitution of Japan. But when things are writen people sue??? get thicker skin people it is a simple fact that is known. Furthermore more than likely the 2100 people that are sueing were NOT even alive then. my advice is to let is go.... groups like this that keep bringing it up make it news all over again and again....

The news is funny if people stop caring the news papers stop reporting....

3 ( +3 / -0 )

"I actually look forward to seeing this fight and think it will be a shame and will just delay the confrontation if again the West applies ill-advised irrational pressure against this. Send your evidence, not your ire."

Evidence was reviewed and judgment handed down on the action of IJA after the war. Judgment that is recognized the world over, the only ones disagreeing being the J right wingers. There is absolutely no need to review anything just to satisfy their twisted ends. Not like they would accept anything but their own desired outcomes....JIA incriminating documents burned = no evidence exists. Sex slaves giving testimony = they are too old, memories faded and the ones who passed away can not provide coroborating evidence = didnt happen. Thats all you hear. Disgraceful. They are the ones tarnishing Japan<s reputation in the world big time right now. Guess it doesnt dawn on them.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Well this is my last post on this topic because Im not going to chase my own tail trying to convince any of these revisionist. Ive seen them in operation and its interesting to watch. It can be a sunny day out but they can work themselves into a frenzy and convince themselves its raining and all the sheep will get in step, rank and file and yell bonzai. Dangerous stuff and Im curious as to the where it originates; it goes against any progressive Western logic but its as real and ingrained in that mindset. They will work some otherwise insignificant laughable piece of evidence to support their already shakey at best postion and the unquestioning followers will respond with, sou desu!...(an ex. of such irrelevant evidence is to as whether they were forced or not, I mean is that really worth even discussing? The point is denying and unable to move on, chase my tail until my own fantasy or nostalgia is realized?) I could work myself into a frenzy discussing the benefits of slavery, how those Africans were rescued etc and all the other crap that used to be used to support that peculiar institution. Its irrelevant; the crux of the issue is that it was an attrocity commited against a people, admitted and move on.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

"IMHO, I think most of these "victims/sex slaves" are nothing more than an opportunist to cash in some money. My view is that "sex slaves" allegation is nothing more than pure propaganda."

My view is that you are just trolling here ,pure and simple.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

That Asahi "stained Japan's reputation" is impossible to prove and the case would most likely be thrown out. That the focus is for an overseas recant is silly and clearly exposes this suit's agenda.

4 ( +4 / -1 )

They also claim that the paper’s reports contributed to the drive to build statues of former "comfort women" in California and other U.S. locations, which they say led to their mental distress.

Litigation because the sheer existence of statues (to which the plantiffs have a marginal relationship at best) causes them mental distress?

"Your honor, my wife wakes up screaming at night because she knows that there is a statue in another state! In the name of all that is good, stop this torture by punishing a newspaper who published articles in the 1980s!!!"

Sounds like an incredibly opportunistic exploitation of the US legal system, rather than the act of genuine victims who "are willing to place their beliefs in a court."

No, correct that. It sounds like a concerted effort to further push the bandwagon of "Beautiful" (read whitewashed, unsullied, pure-as-the-driven-snow, "How dare you say anything negative about us!") Japan.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

AlphaapeFeb. 20, 2015 - 09:12AM JST

better yet, ask why that there still is a distinction used for ethnic Koreans who have lived in Japan for generations before I go off and sue a newspaper

The root cause of bad relationship between Korea and Japan TODAY is seen here. Unless you understand the mechanism, you will never understand what is going on.

To briefly answer your question so as not to be off topic, those ethnic Koreans do not get Japanese citizenship because they refuse accepting it. They can get Japanese citizenship upon application, and many actually did. But this is not my point here.

Koreans play the game of "getting more sympathy from foreigners than the Japanese" in almost every field, and presenting distorted facts or partial truth is well in their rulebook. That is why they loudly advertise that ethnic Koreans in Japan cannot get Japanese citizenship, but conseal "because they do not apply."

Same can be said of ianfu issue. They are playing the same game. My point is, unless you listen to both sides, you cannot see the whole picture. The most dangerous thing you can do is to take one sided story as truth and make yourself an advertising cell for them. I wish they stop the futile game.

-10 ( +4 / -13 )

Honese last post about it but to add to the chase the tail, neverending loop strange (as relative to my own culture) behavior- lets say I visit one of the memorials, cemetaries etc you can find throughout Asia, dedicated to the suffering, murder, and attrocity commited in WW2. Before I would just make an uninterested or uninformed pass at the place, but now I usually sign the log book or put a flower there; something to show my understanding/sympathy towards it. Now imagine next to me is a Japanese person, who also make a praying gesture, displaying the humanity that is common to both of us. Out of respect to the Emperor and some past PMs, they also showed this humanity. Its part of closure, stopping to loop of denial, and moving on. The victim is uplifted, the offender forgiven. Now take the same scenario, this time with a nutter and bullhorn, yelling near the same memorial. Nutter, as usual, is working himself into a frenzy of denial, and get this, actually claiming that the memorial offends him! So now, the whole thing is reversed. The offender is uplifted while the victim offended further. While this scenerio may seem extreme, it shows how the loop or tail chasing is neverending. I dont know if its something more sinister or its just some part of the culture I dont understand.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

CH3CHO, there were also sex slave women from China, Philippines, Indonesia, and Dutch, who are asking Japan to acknowledge their forced suffering at the Japanese. It wasn't just the Koreans arguing alone. Your usual diatrabe against Koreans is unwarranted.

avigatorFEB. 20, 2015 - 06:58AM JST This is the most ridiculous things I have seen recently. I suppose the 1923 Tokyo Massacre of Koreans did not happen either. They make lies and they even believe in their own lies.

As a matter of fact, Japan earlier this year, expunged any references to the massacre of thousands of Koreans from their school text books.

The next time someone comments the usual "but but but... Japan apologized... why Koreans can't move on", I'll just file this story away for that occasion.

It's Japan who just can't move on, who must dredge up the past.

10 ( +14 / -5 )

i actually hope the plaintiffs win. because the more often japan brings up this issue, the worse off they look in the court of public opinion. i'd say that almost 100% of americans don't know about this issue and couldn't give a rats arse about it either. but by forcing asahi to print an apology in american newspapers people will be informed about the issue, and they will understand the terrible atrocities that japan committed during the war. this will backfire on japan in so many ways.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

What I really want to hear, but I suppose it will never happen because they are Japanese themselves, is the Japanese women who were forced into sex-slave situations here in Japan. Many committed suicide, and others fled to other countries, including the US, never to return to their homes because of their shame.

If even one would stand up and talk about their experiences it could help to shut these people up.

Japan "screwed" their own, yet that gets covered up too.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

"My point is, unless you listen to both sides, you cannot see the whole picture. The most dangerous thing you can do is to take one sided story as truth and make yourself an advertising cell for them. "

Indeed , couldn`t agree more with the suggestion of looking at both sides of argument. Yet after looking at both the J right wing position and arguments against the position the rest of the world holds I see no convincing evidence /argument to entertain the right wing revisionist views whatsoever.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

how about if this 2100 people leave this issue alone and do about their own business. they are fighting an unwinnable fight. the lawsuit against Asahi is like the lawsuit against all countries where the IJA comitted horrid crimes, covering big Asia to the very small islands of the Pacific.

i tend to think that Japanese don't really know how to humble themselves, especially when it comes to their relationship with other countries, but looks like this is the path they want to choose, different with post-war Germany.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

is the Japanese women who were forced into sex-slave situations here in Japan.

My understanding of the situation is that the Japanese women were mostly professional prostitutes who mostly serviced the Japanese officers. They got paid for their services. As the war progressed, there weren't simply enough Japanese prostitutes who were willing to volunteer for the battle fronts to fill the needs to service the regular troops who were going wild, committing horrible atrocities against Asian women in Asian countries they conquered. That's when the Japanese government started to look towards their invaded Asian nations to fill the quota to satisfy the wild urges of their troops.

If Japanese government is so confident that Japan is the real victim here, they should then take their case to the international court of law, present Japan's case and their evidence, and let the international judges decide if the comfort women were frauds or victims. If the international judges rule that the comfort women were not sex slaves, then the world owes an apology to Japan and all the comfort women statutes should be dismantled. But if the judges rule that the Comfort Women were sex slaves, then Japan shall categorically issue an apology to these women in front of these women. Of course the Japanese government should reach an agreement with the comfort women organization that all sides will abide by the decision of the judges no matter what the decision is, before going into trial. Shouldn't that settle this case once and for all?

0 ( +6 / -6 )

The part I am most confused about is how quickly people (Abe included apparently) can just toss out huge huge amounts of information based on how 1 small fraction of it was fabricated.

You can't really logically go with "In this case it's not X, therefore in all cases it must not be X".

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Yubaru - Watch Sandakan hachiban, or Sandakan number 8. It was nominated for best foreign film at the Academy Awards way back when, only to lose to Kurosawa Akira. Not bad.

Will not spoil if you want to see it, but it's about how young Japanese girls were forced/sold into sex slavery to promote the well being of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, aka as comfort women in later years during the war. There is a powerful scene in which the old lady shows the graves of all the women who died away from home; the gravestones all have their backs turned toward Japan.

Japan would do itself proud to acknowledge what it did, and stand up for human rights for all people of the world.

Right now these idiots are an embarrassment and the sane and decent folks need to stand up and be heard to drown out this lunacy.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

My understanding of the situation is that the Japanese women were mostly professional prostitutes who mostly serviced the Japanese officers. They got paid for their services. As the war progressed, there weren't simply enough Japanese prostitutes who were willing to volunteer for the battle fronts to fill the needs to service the regular troops who were going wild, committing horrible atrocities against Asian women in Asian countries they conquered. That's when the Japanese government started to look towards their invaded Asian nations to fill the quota to satisfy the wild urges of their troops.

Nope. It was the private operators who did the recruiting and requested the Japanese government to be sent overseas to attach his/her operations to the military. This is well documented and consistent with document archives from not only Japan but the Allieds as well.

If Japanese government is so confident that Japan is the real victim here, they should then take their case to the international court of law, present Japan's case and their evidence, and let the international judges decide if the comfort women were frauds or victims. If the international judges rule that the comfort women were not sex slaves, then the world owes an apology to Japan and all the comfort women statutes should be dismantled. But if the judges rule that the Comfort Women were sex slaves, then Japan shall categorically issue an apology to these women in front of these women. Of course the Japanese government should reach an agreement with the comfort women organization that all sides will abide by the decision of the judges no matter what the decision is, before going into trial. Shouldn't that settle this case once and for all?

I think you are confused to which party has the burden of proof for it's the surviving Korean comfort women who are demanding from the Japanese government. So they are the ones that need to prove that they were not only comfort women, they were forced to be by the Japanese military at that time. But I agree with everything else in your post.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

.

They got paid for their services.

This argument is used for all the women who were in "the service" of providing "comfort" to the Japanese troops, no matter what country they originated from, or so says the Japanese government.

There is also an argument raised by these right-wing-nuts that the American servicemen were no better than the Japanese because they used the services of these women and use that as further justification for what the Japanese did, like two wrongs make a right.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@Hotmail: Japan had Joshi Teishintai system, The giirls who were unable to enter middle school, when they finished 8 th grade of elementary school were drafted. They were suooised to be nurse but people knew they will be sex slaves. Not because they were not good students but low income children, Daughter selling by Northern crop poor families to Southern japan had been custom until Gen Mac urged Japanese Govt stop. You can't say these young children were willing prostitutes.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@ CH3CHO:

hey can get Japanese citizenship upon application, and many actually did. But this is not my point here.

If someone is born here, wouldn't that make them "Japanese" and then why should they have to apply for it? That is what I am trying to say about this situation. They want to claim that Japan didn't use comfort women, and that the IJA did no wrong in WW2. Yet, these very same people are probably the ones who don't want to recognize the various ethnic groups that have been in Japan as not being Japanese. They want to sugar coat the facts to make it fit their agenda.

What's so hard at saying "yes we did this but it was wrong?" That doesn't diminsh the sacrifices that the Japanese troops who served and died in WW2, just as I as a Black man can respect the CSA Rebel soldiers (I don't agree with what they stood for) but recognize that they fought for what they believed in.

These guys just need to own up to this. Just as the Koreans need to own up to the fact that they had (and still do to some extent) "camp towns" outside of major US military installations to service the GI's to keep them (in their opinion) away for the regular Korean women.

If an article gets them so wound up, maybe they need to reevaluate themselves.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

toshikoFeb. 20, 2015 - 01:01PM JST

@Hotmail: Japan had Joshi Teishintai system, The giirls who were unable to enter middle school, when they finished 8 th grade of elementary school were drafted. They were suooised to be nurse but people knew they will be sex slaves.

I really hate this kind of lies. Joshi Teishintai was volunteer group, and only the best and brightest could qualify. There are old-girl association of Joshi Teishintai in almost every city in Japan and are proud of their youth days as they worked in lieu of men and as good as men in severe labor shortage. They have nothing to with sex slaves or prostitution.

-8 ( +4 / -11 )

If someone is born here, wouldn't that make them "Japanese" and then why should they have to apply for it?

I have to guess here that you are American. Just being born in a certain country does not automatically give them the right of citizenship. Also why should anyone who was forcibly taken from their home, to another country, for the purpose of hard labor, or worse, and then left stranded there, have their home country disappear, be forced into taking the citizenship of the country that screwed them in the first place?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Okay somebody recently posted, "they got paid for their services" if I said the same thing to somebody and they did felt I didn't pay them it would be on my shoulders to prove I did pay them. So, I would say show me the records where it says they were paid and how much. I seriously doubt Japan can come up with the records of how much each girl was paid or supposedly paid.

3 ( +5 / -3 )

You can run, but you can't hide - from the truth! You can wrap a ¥100 chocolate in a Mitsukoshi wrapper, but it's still a ¥100 chocolate. Let it go Japan! This is a stain on your history that you have to accept. The harder you try to deny and downplay it the more foolish you look.

6 ( +8 / -3 )

...saying it has stained Japan’s reputation

Japan tained its reputation at the Marco Polo Bridge. Asahi Shinbun had nothing to do with it.

8 ( +9 / -2 )

Okay somebody recently posted, "they got paid for their services" if I said the same thing to somebody and they did felt I didn't pay them it would be on my shoulders to prove I did pay them. So, I would say show me the records where it says they were paid and how much. I seriously doubt Japan can come up with the records of how much each girl was paid or supposedly paid.

If you do a bit of research you will find out that part of the argument that the Japanese use against these unfortunate women is that they were paid, and according to them, paid very well, in some cases much higher than officers in the Japanese Imperial Army.

This argument to them justifies their position of the women being prostitutes. It doesnt matter how the women were, and I hate using this word, procured for their services, whether purchased through slave brokers, or sold by families to keep themselves alive, or however.

They use these arguments to "prove" that they are innocent of any crimes...

7 ( +8 / -1 )

So let me get this right, the military murdered & plundered its way across half of Asia, enslaving POWs and slaughtering the populace. But when it came to sex with the locals they were gentlemen enough about it to put their hand in their pockets and pay for it. Does anyone buy that?!? Absolute tosh, and one bad Asahi source doesn't change that.

10 ( +13 / -4 )

The world knows its history and it has nothing to do with an Asahi story. Japanese have their heads so far up they believe their own lies. The rest of the world does not. Japan's abysmal wartime record was well-known and documented long before the Asahi story and foreign media will not be swayed.

7 ( +8 / -2 )

So let me get this right, the military murdered & plundered its way across half of Asia, enslaving POWs and slaughtering the populace. But when it came to sex with the locals they were gentlemen enough about it to put their hand in their pockets and pay for it. Does anyone buy that?!?

Just look at how the movies "Unbroken" or "The Railway Man" are not well received in Japan because they depict the brutality of the Japanese treatment of POWs, then you can understand why some may be upset about a news article that was written by one of their "own" (i.e. Japanese news organization) that sheds a bad light on Japan.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

AlphaapeFeb. 20, 2015 - 01:20PM JST

If someone is born here, wouldn't that make them "Japanese" and then why should they have to apply for it?

That is called jus soli or birthplace citizenship, as opposed to jus sanguinis or bloodline citizenship which is majority in the world. Both South Korea and Japan uphold jus sanguinis.

What's so hard at saying "yes we did this but it was wrong?"

Asahi found and admitted they had fabricated the story. The issue is what should be done to restore the truth. Saying "yes, we did this" to what we did not do is not the way to go.

Skeeter27Feb. 20, 2015 - 01:39PM JST

So, I would say show me the records where it says they were paid and how much.

http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf

Allied Translator and Interpreter Section, Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers

"Research Report: Amanities in the Japanese Armed Forces", November 15, 1945

(Page 184) Figure 4, Established Rates of South Sector Billet Brothel

Officers & WO /hour, Japanese 3.00 yen, Koreans 3.00 yen, Chinese 2.50 yen

NCO /hour, Japanese 2.50 yen, Koreans 2.50 yen, Chinese 2.00 yen

Privates /hour, Japanese 2.00 yen, Koreans 2.00 yen, Chinese 1.50 yen

(Page 183) 8. The prostitutes and the operator will share equally the proceeds of the work done by the prostitutes.

(Page 182)9. The prostitutes' board, light, fuel and bedding will be paid by the operator, but their clothes, hairdressing, cosmetics and other miscellaneous expenses will be paid by the prostitutes themselves. However, expenses for medical treatment for diseases aquired in the course of the work will be shared equally by the prostitutes and the operator.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

It still doesn't nullify anything even if they were paid prostitutes when they tended unbearable numbers in a day. As if those ladies didn't mind such treatment and enjoyed all the income they were able to make... right? It's sickening for someone to think it's all good if they paid; almost like causing an accident, hurt someone but rids of responsibility by saying 'but I paid' and disregarding any consequences.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Just look at how the movies "Unbroken" or "The Railway Man" are not well received in Japan because they depict the brutality of the Japanese treatment of POWs, then you can understand why some may be upset about a news article that was written by one of their "own" (i.e. Japanese news organization) that sheds a bad light on Japan.

Actually, the comfort women who were basically employed by the private operators whose operations were attached to the Japanese military, became POW's of the Allieds after the capture. When I say "capture", these women and operators were running away from the Allied Forces to a point where one was actually killed by an Allied soldier. This is on record SEATIC (South East Asia Translation and Interrogation Center)

Having said that, I'm constantly amazed how people use "Japan bad, therefore this must also be true as well" type argument constantly.

-10 ( +4 / -14 )

@dbsaiya

Will not spoil if you want to see it, but it's about how young Japanese girls were forced/sold into sex slavery to promote the well being of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, aka as comfort women in later years during the war. There is a powerful scene in which the old lady shows the graves of all the women who died away from home; the gravestones all have their backs turned toward Japan.

That's not what the story of Sandakan hachiban is apparently about:

From Wiki

film goes into flashback to the early 1920s. A young Osaki (Yoko Takashi) is sold by her poverty-stricken family into indentured servitude as a maid in Sandakan, British North Borneo (today’s Sabah, Malaysia) at what she believes to be a hotel. At parting, Osaki's distraught and tragic mother gives her a kimono that she has woven by hand over the night before her daughter's departure. The kimono will be Osaki's most treasured possession forever. The establishment is actually a brothel called Sandakan No. 8. Osaki, who is sold as a young girl, works for two years as a maid, but is forced by the brothel’s owners to become a prostitute.

While a tragedy, that's very far from the "stereotypical" comfort women experience as expounded by the West. Most of her prostitute career is pre-war, and in the interests of a brothel in foreign territory, not national (read: the British would not love to admit they permitted the existence of such things on what was then their soil. The users were presumably mostly white males). She only went into "national service" when

Osaki stays at Sandakan 8 until World War II, and in that period she never experiences genuine affection outside of a brief romance with a poor farmer who abandons her when he comes one evening to the brothel and sees the disheveled and exhausted Osaki after an onslaught of service to a battalion of Japanese sailors recently docked at the town

In other words, the Japanese became the new owners of Malaysia and understandably the brothel offered its services.

I don't care what position you hold on comfort women (though it seems likely it is the "stereotypical Western" one), but let's stay honest on what was said and not said, shall we?

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

T_rexmaxytimeFEB. 20, 2015 - 10:26AM JST 5petals:

"I dont think you get the point. Japan is not arguing that these sex workers ever existed. Japan is arguing the point if they were forced or not. I am sure there were some cases where few of these poor girls were tricked by the broker into becoming a sex trader ( sold by their parents etc) but Japan did not forcefully grab random girls out of the street. Japan is not ISIS you know..."

Yeah T-Rex they did. Read up. This did not start with the Asahi newspaper.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

The world will not go back to those days of what is called facism right now. But seeing the local rightism blooming is right on the geist.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

.. apparently Koreans need to shut up already because Japan has apologised enough for their past crimes against humanity.

Were they really 'common prostitutes'? I guess every one of these women are lying, and it is only the Japanese politicians and right wingers who are telling the truth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGQ0liu0UI

3 ( +7 / -4 )

As harsh as this sounds I doubt very much the rest of the World actually cares about this, I've seen zero media coverage of this in the UK as it is probably considered a story not worth reporting on.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

No single narrative is ever going to completely satisfy any of the contending parties. Fomented in an atmosphere of chauvinistic nationalism that both spawned and was sustained by lies, venality, deluded heroism and fatalism, the fog of war should not detract from trying to advance our common humanity.

http://scholarsinenglish.blogspot.jp/2014/10/summary-of-professor-park-yuhas-book.html

0 ( +0 / -0 )

nigelboy

Having said that, I'm constantly amazed how people use "Japan bad, therefore this must also be true as well" type argument constantly.

And this is the mindset that keeps a lot of Japanese on the defensive.

Nobody intelligent is saying the Japanese people are somehow inherently 'bad'.

What is being said is that the Japanese army, compared to other armies in the 20th century, was particularly brutal, cruel and inhumane - the collective evidence is literally impossible to dispute; there are mountains of evidence despite a lot of it being destroyed at the end of the war. This is why nobody is ever going to believe that in the treatment of women the Japanese army was somehow fair, legitimate or humane. Such behavior doesn't fit the character.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

What everybody says is

You are isolated islands.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

CH3CHOFEB. 20, 2015 - 03:08PM JST AlphaapeFeb. 20, 2015 - 01:20PM JST If someone is born here, wouldn't that make them "Japanese" and then why should they have to apply for it? That is called jus soli or birthplace citizenship, as opposed to jus sanguinis or bloodline citizenship which is majority in the world. Both South Korea and Japan uphold jus sanguinis. What's so hard at saying "yes we did this but it was wrong?" Asahi found and admitted they had fabricated the story. The issue is what should be done to restore the truth. Saying "yes, we did this" to what we did not do is not the way to go.

You seem as confused as these complainants. The fact that a newspaper misled its readers about the truth of their reports, (this happens all the time) does not make the story they reported about untrue. They fabricated information, yes. But the fact that the Japanese army ran sex slave brothels is not. This is what the world seems to see clearly, but right wing Japanese do not (want to).

11 ( +12 / -2 )

letsberealisticFeb. 20, 2015 - 06:29PM JST

They fabricated information, yes. But the fact that the Japanese army ran sex slave brothels is not.

Do I need to repeat?http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japans-global-pr-message-could-misfire-with-focus-on-wartime-past#comment_1927469

CH3CHOFeb. 16, 2015 - 06:12PM JST

No one denies the existance of ianfu aka comfort women. The question is if they were prostitutes or sex slaves.

Read US Army reports during WW2. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf Why do they call ianfu prostitutes? Do you understand what it means to re-write history?

-12 ( +2 / -13 )

Read US Army reports during WW2. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf Why do they call ianfu prostitutes? Do you understand what it means to re-write history?

It is clear to 99% of the earth's population that the only people working to re-write history is right-wing Japan. They are the only one's disputing the 'established' history that Japan conducted sex slave camps and forced women from the age of 12 to be gang raped on a daily basis. This does not make you or any other Japanese person 'bad'. The Japanese are good, the actions of the Japanese army was cruel and inhumane.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

letsberealisticFeb. 20, 2015 - 06:55PM JST

Read US Army reports during WW2. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf You have no knowledge of established fatcs.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

CH3CHOFEB. 20, 2015 - 07:04PM JST letsberealisticFeb. 20, 2015 - 06:55PM JST Read US Army reports during WW2. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf You have no knowledge of established fatcs.

I'm sure historians are aware of this report, and other reports that dispute comfort women, and they all find the reports giving evidence that the comfort women posts existed have more weight validity. This is how history is validated and established. You can disagree until you are blue in the face, you are not a historian.

3 ( +5 / -3 )

Only 2100 people sued? That seems like a pretty low number compared to the rest of the population. Oh and 200,000 women from other countries worked as prostitutes. Which number is bigger? Oh and there's testimony from someone that was actually there. How can you even try to retract your story?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

letsberealisticFeb. 20, 2015 - 07:08PM JST

So, you believe in the view of someone else called historians than your own eyes and thought. In that case, let us see.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Comfort-Women-Postcolonial-Sexuality/dp/0226767779/ref=pdsimb1?ie=UTF8&refRID=1QEJ4QETGC15VJ4T29N6#reader0226767779

"The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan" by Professor C. Sarah Soh

page xvii

Despite its important contribution to the international recognition of wartime sexual violence as a war crime, the Korean redress movement has employed "approximate truths" or strategic exaggerations that have effectively impeded deeper understanding of the comfort women issue and real progress toward its resolution.

Professor Soh is an Korean American and professor of anthropology at San Francisco State University. When exaggerations are strategic, they are meant to deceive people.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

CH3CHO

Professor Soh is an Korean American and professor of anthropology at San Francisco State University.

This writer mostly agrees with mainstream historians that large number of women were forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese administration. She also explains the complexities of the Asian tradition of forced prostitution, of which Japan is a part of. Yes, like other mainstream historians she acknowledges not all were forced and some were paid. Just because some were paid does not somehow get Japan off the hook since most were not.

10 ( +12 / -3 )

This is a right wing conspiracy whose ultimate goal is to slander the women were Japan's victims.

12 ( +13 / -1 )

She also explains the complexities of the Asian tradition of forced prostitution, of which Japan is a part of. Yes, like other mainstream historians she acknowledges not all were forced and some were paid. Just because some were paid does not somehow get Japan off the hook since most were not.

Prostitution was legal in Japan, and regulated as well, until the US Occupation took place. The Japanese were rather pragmatic about issues regarding sex and had no Judeo-Christian hangups about it, those were imposed upon Japan during Mac Arthur's reign.

All were supposedly paid, so by the Japanese who are suing, point of view ALL were prostitutes.

They, the Japanese wing-nuts, refuse to acknowledge just how the women got into those brothels, they conveniently over look that part and focus only on the pay-for-sex part.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

"Hire a womb" stories are making headlines these days.

Why are you still ruminating the old days?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Cho3: Have you met returned JoshiTeishintai member in 1945, 1946? Don;t tell me I fabricated. They were not volunteer, In elementary schoools, we had to help them to study more so that thett wouldn;t be drafted. I was in first year of Gorls muddle school when pikaron made Emperor to stop war. Then older teishintai member returned. We heaesd hirror sstories. As for Gen Mac story, check Japanese history. If you think Japanese Govt never used women ror their cause, read about Princess who was presented to Korean Crown Prince. Masako Lee. Then yjretr esd s monlr lsfy eho esd presneted to brother of Manchuria Emperor. Hiri Aishin Kakura. Then read aoout Tsuruyo Torio who became lover of a GHQ legal officer and helped Japanese Govt revised Constitution. Don't decide Japan was haven for women, Geisha meant prostitute. In feudal time, loser lords presented their daughters to winner lords/

8 ( +10 / -2 )

The problem here is not the 2100 frustrated, grumbling and complex ridden Japanese who sue Asahi, but the lack of a powerful counterweight in Japanese society.

If at some point there had been 2000 plus Japanese suing some LDP right-wing nut for one of the frequent inflammatory remarks denying Japanese WW2 atrocities against its neighbors things would look a bit different, but again and again it is the right-wing nuts in Japanese society who go berserk and can't be stopped.

It is this lingering we are-the-victims-and-nobody-understands-us complex in Japanese society that prevents Japan from letting the ghosts of the past behind.

A nation that went berserk, killed millions and devastated a whole continent should be bold with its own wrong doings and generous with its victims, but what we see are 2100 nitpickers worried about their "reputation". Pathetic!

6 ( +9 / -3 )

That is called jus soli or birthplace citizenship, as opposed to jus sanguinis or bloodline citizenship which is majority in the world. Both South Korea and Japan uphold jus sanguinis.

Officially yes, literally no. There are more than a few Japanese mixed blood children that were not granted Japanese citizenship even though the children's father was or is Japanese. Particularly a number of women who are Filipino and had children by Japanese father's.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

igloobuyerFeb. 20, 2015 - 07:37PM JST

Yes, like other mainstream historians she acknowledges not all were forced and some were paid.

This is quite a change from the previous comment.

letsberealisticFeb. 20, 2015 - 06:55PM JST

the 'established' history that Japan conducted sex slave camps and forced women from the age of 12 to be gang raped on a daily basis

But let us quote what the professor wrote.

(page 236) It is tempting, and quite understandable, for progressive scholars and their supporters to want to categorically define the comfort system as sex slavery and war crime in recognition of the undisputable degradation of countless women and the horrendous ordeals of sexual violence recounted by many victim-survivors. However, such a one-dimensional representation would mean overlooking some aspects of the factual truth concerning the comfort system as history.

(page xvii) Defining the nature of Japan's military comfort system simply as commercial sex, sexual slavery, or war crime only serves the ends of the partisan politics being waged by adversarial ethnic nationalists and transnational human rights activists.

Also read page 229, to see which historian said what.

-10 ( +3 / -12 )

Kazuaki - I saw the film; did you or are you just quoting from Wiki to prove your point? The main theme behind the story is what we as humans are capable of doing to our fellow humans. Pre-war Japan created war time Japan so don't try to gloss over what happened. I guess you don't think that the Japanese are capable of doing such things and would like to portray the line that the Japanese were victims? Sexual slavery is the same, ancient times, pre-war or even during the modern era. The suit is against Asahi and demands that they place ads in American and European newspapers apologizing for the coverage of the comfort women because it stained the reputation of Japanese. The Asahi and the Japanese would do themselves a great service if they place ads in the newspapers owning up to their deeds and apologizing. My parents and grand parents experienced the war in Japan and I have buddies who served in the Marines in Viet-nam and in the SEALs post 911. They are the first to tell you what beastly things we can do. Let's get real shall we?

7 ( +8 / -1 )

I saw the film;

The film can not be evidence. .

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

Hello Yubaru

I think you made a good and important point. Ultimately, we are discussing the sad realities of countless abuses by people of any given ethnicity against other people of any given ethnicity. These are not crimes against, for example, Chinese rights, Korean rights, or Indonesian rights, but crimes against human rights, and not crimes performed by Japanese only, but by heartless greedy and brutal people of any given ethnicity.

You may be interested in Karayuki-san, the Making of a Prostitute, a documentary (it left me speechless), which is described in the following quote from Wikipedia:

Karayuki-san, the Making of a Prostitute is a 1975 Japanese film by director Shohei Imamura. It is a documentary on one of the Japanese "karayuki-san," who were women who were forced into prostitution in Japanese-occupied territories during World War II. Imamura focuses on one particular woman who was sent to Malaysia and never returned to Japan.

**

5 ( +6 / -1 )

The statues of sex slave victims, the testimony of hundreds of elderly (Korean, Filipina, Chinese, Indonesean) women, global opinion, Asahi's original columns in the 80's etc. . . cannot be ignored. The totality of circumstances is too great for the 2,100 persuing this legal action against Asahi.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

bam_booFeb. 20, 2015 - 08:18PM JST

The problem here is not the 2100 frustrated, grumbling and complex ridden Japanese who sue Asahi, but the lack of a powerful counterweight in Japanese society.

What do you mean by counterweight? Asahi admitted it had fabricated the story. Those people wanted legal action to restore truth. The counterweight would be to hide the truth? It sounds something no one needs.

If at some point there had been 2000 plus Japanese suing some LDP right-wing nut for one of the frequent inflammatory remarks denying Japanese WW2 atrocities against its neighbors things would look a bit different,

"Inflammatory remarks" would be within the freedom of expression, if they were not lies.

It is this lingering we are-the-victims-and-nobody-understands-us complex in Japanese society that prevents Japan from letting the ghosts of the past behind.

Victims? Are you saying Japanese think they themselves are victims? LOL. It seems you have no idea what Japanese think.

A nation that went berserk, killed millions and devastated a whole continent should be bold with its own wrong doings and generous with its victims, but what we see are 2100 nitpickers worried about their "reputation". Pathetic!

A whole continent? Which country are you talking about? Only one country I know of is Australia. Those 2100 are worried about truth.

By the way, do you still believe in the fabricated story even after Asahi admitted? It does not mean ianfu did not exit or anything, but we have to sort out what is untrue and what is true, dont we? It is a pitty so many do not care for truth but pet their political agenda.

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

What is being said is that the Japanese army, compared to other armies in the 20th century, was particularly brutal, cruel and inhumane - the collective evidence is literally impossible to dispute; there are mountains of evidence despite a lot of it being destroyed at the end of the war. This is why nobody is ever going to believe that in the treatment of women the Japanese army was somehow fair, legitimate or humane. Such behavior doesn't fit the character.

Again, if the SEATIC and ATIS report contradicts your assertion in regards to the comfort women, then what other evidence are there other than your " Such behavior doesn't fit the character"?

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

@kazuaki

Though it shall be futile and will again get me downvotes

I gave you a downvote, and I'll tell you why.

The revisionists... are willing to place their beliefs in a court, willing to come out for a Decisive Engagement

You are, here and on the other recent thread on this topic, presenting yourself as an "agnostic on the comfort women issue" who is happy to see this in court - and arguing that people from both sides of the debate should be happy to see this in court - as it allows everyone to present their evidence to be evaluated in a court of law, and is therefore a chance to put the whole thing to bed once and for all; to have a "decisive engagement".

But it isn't anything of the sort. It isn't a hearing on the entire comfort women issue. It relates only to the false stories of a single newspaper from a single discredited source; the fabrications of Mr Yoshida do not make the whole thing a fabrication.

If you want a Decisive Engagement, how about taking it to The Hague? But someone already did that: the War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery put hundreds of pages of testimonies on record, none of it from Seiji Yoshida.

Furthermore, even if you could prove that not a single comfort woman was tricked or abducted by the Japanese, if you could prove that every last comfort woman was sold into it by their father, that still would not absolve Japan of its blame.

African tribes often sold people to European slavers; does this absolve the Europeans of blame? Absolutely not.

When women are sold by their families to traffickers today, does that absolve the traffickers of blame? Absolutely not.

Same goes for the Empire of Japan.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

If you want a Decisive Engagement, how about taking it to The Hague? But someone already did that: the War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery put hundreds of pages of testimonies on record, none of it from Seiji Yoshida.

A mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs and you have the audacity to put this up??

Furthermore, even if you could prove that not a single comfort woman was tricked or abducted by the Japanese, if you could prove that every last comfort woman was sold into it by their father, that still would not absolve Japan of its blame.

Probatio diabolica type BS once again. These people need to get a clue as to whom the burden of proof goes to.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

They can force Asahi to have ad in USA but if ad states Comfort Woman, USA people misunderstand Massagge Therapists. Then if proper phrase or Sex Slave is used, papers have to hide words because that ikind of phrases are Not printable in USA as papers are read by children.

If the group want to hide Ianfu story, they should keep quiet. They want to advewrtise Japan's war time crime for US who didn't have a slightest idea, Maybe.

These women were not tricked to. They were forced to do. It was fascist time. tricking was not the method of kenpeitai, then. Meirei/ Meirei.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

What do you mean by counterweight? Asahi admitted it had fabricated the story.

Asahi didn't admit it fabricated the story, CH3CHO, it admitted that part of the coverage was based on false testimonies. The basic facts about sex slaves still remain true even Asahi did apologize for incorrect coverage of the topic.

Those people wanted legal action to restore truth.

As you and the 2100 plaintiffs never seem to step in with the same verve when it is about saving the reputation of a victim of Japanese wartime aggression, we get the impression that you guys only care about the truth if it is concerning your own reputation.

Victims? Are you saying Japanese think they themselves are victims? LOL. It seems you have no idea what Japanese think.

If you compare how the Japanese media deals with Hiroshima and Nagasaki memorials and then try to find anything approximately as empathic towards the foreign victims of Japans atrocities you will know what I mean if I say there is a wide spread feeling of victimization in Japan.

If you compare that to Germany you have a completely different picture. In Germany the statewide WW2 memorials are mainly dedicated to the victims of German aggression and do never dare to put the German suffering in the center, of which there of course was abundant.

A whole continent? Which country are you talking about? Only one country I know of is Australia.

You might have missed the fact that Japan has devastated the larger part of Asia during WW2. Asia is a continent.

It does not mean ianfu did not exit or anything, but we have to sort out what is untrue and what is true, dont we? It is a pitty so many do not care for truth but pet their political agenda.

After reading 30plus of your posts regarding comfort women and Japanese crimes against humanity, CH3CHO, I understand that the devil of your truth is in the details that make Japans war time atrocities look a bit nicer.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Iam not negating the fact that the so called comfort women were around then. But to keep on emphasizing as sex slaves for the mere matter of sex is just beyond reason. You mean to say all the soldiers did during the war is to line up and had a sprout or two ? And all those women did is to lie down and cry and count how many did they had during the day, everyday? It was wartime, for sure to have enough provision everyday, one could either be a soldier or somebody living in the camps. If poor parents gave up their daughters to become as one, it could be an ultimate choice for both of them to survive. The parents receiving a token of provision and the women assured of provision on the daily basis. In situations like these, those women aren't prostitutes at all. Surely, the first times were not to their liking but to think they were able to live through the war just meant they went along the tide to survive. There were horrors of war then. And more gruesome horrors of war today. Japan has apologized several times. Stop bashing Japan! If only they want to get a slice of Japan for all their so called rape horrors, let those women realize had they not been taken in the camps they won't be around re- telling those stories. Just not focus on one side.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Slogans of Jqoqn; Tairiku Seiha. for the plan to conwuer Continent (China) Japan was busy since it annexed Korea. To fool SouthEast Asia, Dai-Toua KyoEiken. All sort of young giirls were sent to S E Asia. But this lawsuii5s were done by mostly Japanese men to put money in pockets.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The problem here is that the overwhelming majority of the people suing Asahi probably have zero direct knowledge or experience with the subject that they are protesting or making a claim against.

Just like the younger generation Chinese or Koreans who protest against Japan, these people have had no formal education from their government teaching them that these events happened. I know quite a few Japanese people that think the same way as well, they believe that if it is IN a textbook it's "fact" and if it's not there it's conjecture or myth.

I have had the unfortunate experience of meeting a teacher who once got very angry with me because I refused to allow myself to be pulled into a discussion in a class that she was trying to make the Japanese people into the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the victims of world during WWII.

She refused to accept the "facts" that Japan was the aggressor, refused to accept the atrocities committed throughout Asia, refused to accept that "her" country could affect pain and suffering on others to the extent that it did.

Stop bashing Japan! If only they want to get a slice of Japan for all their so called rape horrors, let those women realize had they not been taken in the camps they won't be around re- telling those stories. Just not focus on one side.

Fair enough, but then Japan should stop whitewashing history too! There has to be give and take on both sides and Japan's constant back and forth games makes any apologies they have given in the past come across as being insincere as they have NOT changed the attitudes among themselves about their own history.

How would you feel if I apologized to you for some wrong, and then turned around and told everyone I just apologized to appease your feelings. I think you would get upset too.

Your last line here is beyond description, you come across like you are blaming a woman for her own rape. That is disgusting beyond belief. Oh they got taken, and raped, some killed, all abused, but it's because they had this happen that they can stand up now and complain. I will NEVER understand that misguided logic!

5 ( +6 / -1 )

tinawatanabe - you are correct, but I did not say evidence. Artists, if you consider film making an art form, can reflect or convey what the public feels or thinks but cannot articulate. Just as Picasso's Guernica, the film can be used as a reference of what this whole discussion is about.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Only 2,100 stupid money-grubbing sheeple?

Small numbers, sure, but they are giving Japan a worse name in the international community.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

" If you want a Decisive Engagement, how about taking it to The Hague? But someone already did that: the War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery put hundreds of pages of testimonies on record, none of it from Seiji Yoshida.

*A mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs and you have the audacity to put this up??"

Typical arrogant right wing attitude - funny how you refer to International institutions and the decisions they made when it suits your arguments and dismiss them as farce when it does not. You cherry pick and then talk about "audacity"? Next. *

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I think the Japanese government needs to make a public admission of guilt and apology for the trauma, loss and separation caused by their predecessors policies and practices of forcible removal of these women. An official apology and govt acknowledgement would have enormous significance for the women and families involved.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

KKK in USA is a fringe movement, seen as uneducated hillbillies, not of the standing to have 2,100 plus 7,800-or-whatever people suing like this. Thus the distrust by other countries of the Japanese government. China government anti-Japan PR team must be high-fiving, makes their jobs a lot easier.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The suit demands the Asahi pay 3 million yen in compensation and place advertisements in major US and European newspapers apologising for the coverage.

3 million ywn ia about 30,000 dollars. I don;t thibk they meant paper ad, Will share that by 2100 Jaoaneese,

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@yubaru, my pt is so many other women who really repulsed being raped who committed suicide to avoid shame and hence not around now and there are some who fought somehow to death their so called rapists. Them being housed in camps having all the provisions they could have seemed to be bent on enjoying till now what they had enjoyed in the camps before... security. As most of them couldn't fend for themselves , they merely want a slice of Japan, not apology. And what would I say if you apologize to me and say beyond my hearing it was just to appease me? I just think that's the very essence of diplomacy. Even ordinary couples are doing it to give way to peace and harmony. Reason probably why the issue never ends those asking for repentance knows that those who are apologizing knows the real truth. And truth hurts.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

What's the point in arguing this anymore? The conservatives in the J-gov are not going to budge an inch. It's all a matter of how history is interpreted. It's up to individuals with access to the Internet to see/read the evidence then decide for themselves. Unfortunately, that's asking a lot of the Japanese, many of whom start getting confused when a sentence in English goes beyond five words. If all they have is Japanese sources, then yeah, expect a fair bit of bias. Also, telling the J-gov to fess up is only get to get them fired up more, to the point where they'll say, "Well apologize for the A-bomb!" Basically, those who care to find the truth, will. Those who don't, won't.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Typical arrogant right wing attitude - funny how you refer to International institutions and the decisions they made when it suits your arguments and dismiss them as farce when it does not. You cherry pick and then talk about "audacity"? Next. *

What part of "mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs" did you not get? I even called it a mock trial even though the process was far from it. It doesn't take any brains to predict the outcome.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

A mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs and you have the audacity to put this up??

I didn't say it was a trial and it didn't call itself a trial. I didn't say it proves anything; I said it put hundreds of pages of testimony on record. If you want to discredit the comfort women and show that they're all liers, you have a lot more work to do once you've finished with the Asahi's Yoshida stories.

Furthermore, even if you could prove that not a single comfort woman was tricked or abducted by the Japanese, if you could prove that every last comfort woman was sold into it by their father, that still would not absolve Japan of its blame.

Probatio diabolica type BS once again. These people need to get a clue as to whom the burden of proof goes to

"Burden of proof, burden of proof, burden of proof" ad nauseam. "These people"are more convincing than you and and your right-wing screeching are. But still, I'll humour you; I'll rephrase my point without using the word "prove" which touches your buttons so reliably:

Furthermore, even if we accept that not a single comfort woman was tricked or abducted by the Japanese, that every last comfort woman was sold into it by their father, that still would not absolve Japan of its blame

4 ( +7 / -3 )

I didn't say it was a trial and it didn't call itself a trial. I didn't say it proves anything; I said it put hundreds of pages of testimony on record. If you want to discredit the comfort women and show that they're all liers, you have a lot more work to do once you've finished with the Asahi's Yoshida stories.

There are many versions of their testimonies 'on record' with interview in the press, speaking engagements, published accounts, and for some, actual civil court testimonies in which they testified that they were sold by their parents. That alone is not worthy of discredit nor validation. That's the point. There are no evidence to support the narratives which I will state later.

Furthermore, even if we accept that not a single comfort woman was tricked or abducted by the Japanese, that every last comfort woman was sold into it by their father, that still would not absolve Japan of its blame

That's not what the debate or the contention is about. It's the narrative of "more than 200,000 Asian and Dutch women who were removed from their homes in Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, The Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, East Timor and Indonesia to be coerced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Armed Forces of Japan between 1932 and 1945" and many other similar narrative that is being challenged and rightfully so.

What you are demanding can only happen if Utopia was the norm in the world for I cannot find any nation in this world today where a state takes responsibility for their citizens decision to sell their daughter for prostitution.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

I cannot find any nation in this world today where a state takes responsibility for their citizens decision to sell their daughter for prostitution.

nigelboy, you are omitting the most important part of the story: the Japanese nation was the "godfather" of the prostitution business in question.

So a large number of women were sold, coerced and trafficked at the request of the Japanese military and they often were contained against their will in the brothels established and managed by the same military.

If the Japanese military didn't engage directly and on such a large scale in this dirty business nobody would be accusing Japan.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

nigelboy, you are omitting the most important part of the story: the Japanese nation was the "godfather" of the prostitution business in question.

It was legal at that time. There are many nations still that allow prostitution which includes developed nations. And as a result, there are many women who are sold or are forced to enter the profession due to economic necessity.

You make no point here other than your infatuation to target the Japanese of today for what the Japanese of 70 years ago did. Find another angle. This was covered in another article with you already.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

"What part of "mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs" did you not get?"

Oh I got your lame attempt at discrediting the War Crimes tribunal. What part of cherry picking as it suits you and having the nerve to criticize another poster for audacity when he referred to the tribunal did you not get?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

What you are demanding can only happen if Utopia

What do you imagine I'm demanding, nigelboy?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Oh I got your lame attempt at discrediting the War Crimes tribunal. What part of cherry picking as it suits you and having the nerve to criticize another poster for audacity when he referred to the tribunal did you not get?

Lame? How can you possibly not discredit "mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs"?? It's essentially a 'rally' disguised as tribunal.

What do you imagine I'm demanding, nigelboy?

Pipe dream. A bar that's unprecedented.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

tinawatanabe Feb. 14, 2015 - 11:09PM JST

In Japan, the most important thing is law, not emotion.

tinawatanabe Feb. 20, 2015 - 10:10AM JST

Only false accusation hurts tremendously

7 ( +7 / -1 )

What do you imagine I'm demanding, nigelboy?

Pipe dream. A bar that's unprecedented

Complete non-answer. I have made no demands. So I'll have to ask the question again; what do you imagine I'm demanding?

I say 'imagine' because I have expressed no demands whatsoever in my short posting history on this site (having just joined a few days ago), and therefore any demands you ascribe to me are assumed.

So, once more, if you would be good enough to outline the demands that you are assuming I have, I shall address them.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

As most of them couldn't fend for themselves , they merely want a slice of Japan, not apology.

Do a little research and you will find that many of the women who are still alive have no designs of any kind with regards to compensation from Japan. All they want is an acknowledgement of their suffering and a sincere apology that doesnt get changed with the changing of a PM.

And what would I say if you apologize to me and say beyond my hearing it was just to appease me? I just think that's the very essence of diplomacy

You I do believe are off the mark, this isnt diplomacy, particularly when people who follow after take actions directly against what you are getting an apologize for. It's a slap in the face.

The lack of education, or acknowledgement here in Japan of the atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army are in effect a slap in the face to these women and all those who suffered under their rule.

It isnt diplomacy, it's plain arrogance.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

If they are serious to have Asahi ads, they will ask 3 million dollars, not yen, They should llearn that NY Times is not nationally distributed. LA Times in only part of S Calir. There is no nationally distributed newspapers in USA. The article stated including Japanese nationals living in the United States, I know there are some uninformed Japanese living somewhere in USA. But ..... Do they know they will have to testify in Japanese court as former sex slave? Were there male sex slave?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

It was legal at that time.

No, nigelboy, your information is incorrect, while prostitution was legal in Japan, coercion and trafficking of women was not.

There are many nations still that allow prostitution which includes developed nations.

You still don't get the point. We are not discussing the legality of prostitution here, but whether the Japanese military was ultimately responsible for violence against women committed in the system it had created and managed.

Is it so difficult to get the legal concept right, nigelboy? We are talking about a very basic concept of legal liability.

If you run a brothel and the police finds coerced, trafficked or enslaved women in your brothel you are responsible in any nation with a working legal system.

Besides we all have read the numerous accounts of direct involvement of the Japanese military in actions of coercion, trafficking and enslavement of women. Something you try to downplay as individual exceptions.

You make no point here other than your infatuation to target the Japanese of today for what the Japanese of 70 years ago did.

So, you accept that the Japanese of 70 years ago did commit crimes against humanity? Then we're already did a big step forward, as you're usually always trying to obfuscate that fact.

And again, nigelboy, please note that individual responsibility for crimes works fundamentally different from national responsibility. As long as atrocities committed by a nation live on in the memories of people they are connected to that nation and if the nation likes it or not it will be judged according to how it positions itself towards the acts of its forefathers.

There is no national pride without strings and hooks. As a nation you can't only pick the cherries of your heritage, you have to deal with the addled eggs as well.

And here comes the important point nigelboy, this doesn't mean that the descendants are responsible for the crimes, no, they're not, but they are responsible for how their current state deals with the heritage of the crimes.

Get that concept?

Germany understood this and and acted accordingly in a bold and unambiguous way. Now it is living in harmony with the victims of its war rage.

Japan has the same opportunity, though not on the short term and not with complex ridden politicians that use national pride to cover their deep rooted feeling of inferiority as a result of a disastrous and shameful war.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Prostitutes have been legal in Japan. Also there were people whose business was buying young girls from crops poor Northern Japan. Hitokai, was the official name of their business registlation. Many areas in Japan, one area was disignated for prositute house district and calle yukaku, Many southern wealthy ladies decided tp stop Hitokai business. So they went to GHQ and begged to stop the practice. But they had problem, They went to school when English was designated as Enemy Country Language/ So they rexcruited young girls in their middle school thety artended, Another oriblem. The young girls had to communicate with writings as conversations were not taught that time. Hitsudan (communication with writings - mannenhitsu using). At that time, there was a Japanese American who worked for NHK during war to announce to US forces were in war prisoner jail. Her nickname was Tokyo Rose and could not be used. But Gen Mac asked (he never demanded) then Japanese Govt to stop child sales practice. So. Japan had legal prostitution.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

If you run a brothel and the police finds coerced, trafficked or enslaved women in your brothel you are responsible in any nation with a working legal system.

Thank you. It's the INDIVIDUAL who did those things that are responsible. Not the nation itself.

Besides we all have read the numerous accounts of direct involvement of the Japanese military in actions of coercion, trafficking and enslavement of women. Something you try to downplay as individual exceptions.

Just one. Semarang case.

So, you accept that the Japanese of 70 years ago did commit crimes against humanity? Then we're already did a big step forward, as you're usually always trying to obfuscate that fact.

Some did. It was called the IMTFE. They were punished for it. I stated that very clearly in another related article.

And again, nigelboy, please note that individual responsibility for crimes works fundamentally different from national responsibility. As long as atrocities committed by a nation live on in the memories of people they are connected to that nation and if the nation likes it or not it will be judged according to how it positions itself towards the acts of its forefathers.

Magic leap there sir. I'm still questioning why is this a national responsibility for an alleged individual crime 70 years after. If the crime has been committed, you go after the individual that coerced you.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

believe prostitute house business is still legal in Japan. After WW II, there were prostitutes in Tokyo and other cities that had American soldiers speciality prostitutes. In Japan, they were called pan pan. Then in Tokyo, there were many abandoned half half (Konketsu-ji) were found. You guys all know the name Mitsubishi. The oldest daughter of Mitsubishi created orphanage house by demanding to get one of their confiscated mansions back from Japanese Govt and accepted all those abandoned babies. The orphanage was named Elizabeth Sander Home. These pan pan prositute girls were legal. There were three laws (one law became outlaw last year.) The other two laws were still on and pan pans were arrested only when they kissed on street and they hugged on the street. Their prostitution was legal. So were prostitute houses everywhere in Japan.

-1 ( +2 / -2 )

Thank you. It's the INDIVIDUAL who did those things that are responsible. Not the nation itself.

No, we're not talking about one brothel but about hundreds. It was not individuals who decided to build up a system of military brothels, it was a decision taken by the military command and as such a decision that the leader of Japan (either the prime minister or the emperor) had to take responsibility for, with all its consequences.

Legally speaking strictly hierarchical systems like the Japanese war time fascism are very easy to deal with as there is a clear line of command for almost everything.

It is the same for other atrocities of the Japanese military. If we'd be talking about scattered instances we could say it was individual misbehavior, but atrocities happened systematically as part of Japanese warfare so they fall in the responsibility of the prime minister and unfortunately also in the responsibility of the whole nation.

In the case of Germany some people tried to argue that because the Nazi rule was a dictatorship the populace can not be taken responsible for the crimes committed, but the prevailing opinion is that if a majority of citizens take part with and do not prevent the crimes the populace becomes co-responsible. Or in different terms, in the case of a nation state the populace is ultimately responsible for who they allow to lead them.

Magic leap there sir. I'm still questioning why is this a national responsibility for an alleged individual crime 70 years after. If the crime has been committed, you go after the individual that coerced you.

Of course the individual brokers did commit crimes as well, but as they were henchmen, the larger part of the responsibility lies with the principal, the Japanese military command.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

believe prostitute house business is still legal in Japan.

Prostitution is illegal in Japan. It became illegal after the US "inspired" (sarcasm) constitution became the law of the land.

Prostitution prior to that time was regulated and legal in Japan.

Now it is a HUGELY grey area.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

They also claim that the paper’s reports contributed to the drive to build statues of former “comfort women” in California and other U.S. locations, which they say led to their mental distress.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

These 2100 people claim about building of statue. So, they have to show when and how much they had to contributed to create statue. <emntal anguish, they have to present at least two paychiatric evaluations/ Between Asahi report and now.

Tokyo District Court handles situation in Tokyo and Tokyo related issues. In order to legitimize this claim, they have to show they live in Tokyo and they were comfort women or they are related to former comfort women. Living USA, the court will kindly suggest USA residents to sue in USA.

Somewhere in north east has statue I read sometime ago.

I wonder why they are sueing without victim, former sex slave and their descendants.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

marcelitoFeb. 21, 2015 - 12:56PM JST

"What part of "mock trial with no defendants present, no defense counsel, and no cross examiniation to the plaintiffs" did you not get?"

Oh I got your lame attempt at discrediting the War Crimes tribunal.

He is talking about the mock trial that took place in 2000. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_International_War_Crimes_Tribunal_on_Japan%27s_Military_Sexual_Slavery

I think the "mock trial" is just for deceiving people, such like you.

bam_booFeb. 21, 2015 - 09:22PM JST

It was legal at that time.

No, nigelboy, your information is incorrect, while prostitution was legal in Japan, coercion and trafficking of women was not.

That brings the discussion to the square 1, whether the women were coerced or trafficked, and if they were, by whom. It seems you got nothing after all this discussion.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

@YoshitsuneFEB. 21, 2015 - 02:24AM JST

I gave you a downvote, and I'll tell you why.

Fair enough.

But it isn't anything of the sort. It isn't a hearing on the entire comfort women issue. It relates only to the false stories of a single newspaper from a single discredited source; the fabrications of Mr Yoshida do not make the whole thing a fabrication.

First, at the very least, it is a lot more decisive than sitting here trying to shout down the attempt.

Second, the nature of courts tend to require claims to be packaged in terms some specific harmer (defendant) causing some concrete harm to yourself (plaintiff), otherwise you can have the perfect legal attack and still have it bounced on relevancy. As an example on the opposite side, you can't sue Japan on behalf of a comfort women. You have to be a comfort woman or at least a relative (admittedly I'm not au fait with exactly how much separation is allowed, but the principle stands).

Further, it is normally very hard to fry a media, because judges tend to be touchy of attacking freedom of speech. So, even if the right-wingers are absolutely convinced that Asahi is lying, and can prove it beyond all reasonable doubt, they don't have a chance in actual legal practice, since Asahi can say "I didn't know. I really didn't know." The judges will mumble something about freedom of speech. So, Asahi admitting things is a big crack in the dam.

Here's where you guys can help if you can put down your ire and pick up your evidence: It is generally agreed in countries with freedom of speech, if something is at least true, even if it may be harmful it should be tolerated as a price of freedom of speech. Harm can only be calculated if the claims are false. Thus, if comfort women are substantively true, even though Asahi used a false source, if it essentially reported something true, only insignificant harm can be assessed, and Asahi will get off. If it is false, then the calculated damage contribution of Asahi rises substantially.

If you want a Decisive Engagement, how about taking it to The Hague?

First, that there may be an alternative does not necessary mean that the Japanese right-wingers are not doing a right move.

Second, a principle of trials is that they are fair, and the judges should, if at all possible, go in with a clear or at least neutral mind. I think even you must admit that China and Korea must be out, and in return Japan would be out of it. Well, that's still fine, but just counting OSCE countries, how many countries do you think there are who does not raise their people with a version of history that puts Japan in the black of the black category?

If people on this board any indication, these countries are very few, and the effective depth of the "indoctrination" approaches fundamentalist levels. The obvious defense on your side would be to argue "Because that's the truth". Well, all right, but it still doesn't change the fact that it would be unreasonable to expect judges raised in such environments to be able to be neutral on this matter. And juries are even further gone off that path.

The foaming at the mouth responses of the West to every incident like this only suggests to the right-winger, as it does to me, that the West lacks the capacity for rational judgment on this issue.

Thus, I'm forced to conclude that even counting the "national advantage", Japan is as close to flat ground as you can find for any issue concerning Japan in WWII. At least you can actually put a word in or against on issues without it being linked to your character, and I hope you can agree more than overcomes any "national advantage". For this and other reasons, to both sides a ruling in Japan has more weight than in any place, including the Hague.

But someone already did that: the War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military Sexual Slavery put hundreds of pages of testimonies on record, none of it from Seiji Yoshida.

Since you said later you don't want to say the latter is decisive, I'll let that go. Instead, I say: Good. Pack those testimonies and send them off to court. It should help. But if the other side shoots them to ribbons, I hope you will be a "good sport".

still would not absolve Japan of its blame.

Well, that's true. But let's face it: 200,000 Korean women were sold to Japanese brothels by Korean daddies just doesn't have the same ring as Japanese military directly coerced 200,000 women to become sex slaves, and we all know it.

In any case, I believe history should be objective and academic. If that's where the line falls after reasoned debate, so be it. I am just suspicious of the accuracy of any cosensus that look more established by a mix of screaming voices and hesitance to directly accuse old women of lying than by academic discourse, that's all.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

That brings the discussion to the square 1, whether the women were coerced or trafficked, and if they were, by whom.

Why you, CH3CHO, are not able to except the fact that a large number of women actually were coerced and trafficked remains a mystery that we apparently will not be able to solve here.

If you rather label several hundreds of women from various nations and backgrounds as liars, then except an obvious reality, further discussion won't help.

It seems you got nothing after all this discussion.

CH3CHO, I believe it should read: "It seems I got nothing after all this discussion"

as you can hardly guess what other people got from the discussion.

To help you get something, here the facts in nutshell once again:

While we don't always know who exactly did the dirty work, we know exactly for who it was done. We know who was the commissioner, the principal and the profiteer of the comfort station business: the Japanese military.

Or to put it in a bit more bold terms, the Japanese military command took the role of a mega-pimp in huge sexual exploitation ring. Of course the military tried to get as much as possible of the dirty work done by henchmen, but that doesn't free it of any responsibility.

While at the beginning (1930ies) they could rely on Japanese "volunteers" (we know that many of them were not "zealous sex workers" but forced in one or another way as well), it is well documented that from 1941 on the situation was deteriorating. The Japanese military was struggling to get enough women and didn't care much about the modes of "recruitment" and "employment".

Apparently the only thing the military was worried about, and did check strictly with their prostitutes, was the spread of venereal diseases, because this would have weakened fighting strength. They didn't care at all about and also never inquired whether their "sex workers" were happy, properly paid and there on their own free will. Only if pressure from outside amounted, like in the Semarang case, was the military forced to take action.

From the evidence collected we can guess that there were hundreds of Semarangs all over Asia, just that there was no foreign community to raise a voice in a way that would have been heard on the international stage.

I believe it is a positive development if we get to a more realistic view of what had happened, e.g. how the women were actually coerced, trafficked and constrained, and not rely on dramatization.

It is obvious that ultranationalists on both sides are trying to distort facts and paint their version of historic events, but I believe that constantly dealing with this topic in a unbiased, reasonable and academic way, will just reinforce what we already know, that Japan is ultimately responsible for the crimes against women in relation to the comfort station system it had created in the pacific arena of WW2.

Very unfortunately a Japanese court is not the right place for a balanced and unbiased discussion of the topic.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

No, we're not talking about one brothel but about hundreds. It was not individuals who decided to build up a system of military brothels, it was a decision taken by the military command and as such a decision that the leader of Japan (either the prime minister or the emperor) had to take responsibility for, with all its consequences.

Like I said, the system of private brothel attaching themselves to the military is not illegal at that time. The state, in no way shape or form, should take responsibility for an illegal act that may have been conducted by individuals (i.e. private operators). This applies to any 'system' where it does not prevent an indivdiuals from committing individuals crimes.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

I don't know what nigelboy has been reading, but it's proven by world historians that it was the Japanese military government which created the comfort stations, and ran the stations to their liking, preventing the women from leaving. The very act of holding them and preventing them to leave, is called kidnapping and forced confinement - doesn't matter who recruited these women and how they were recruited. This is my last post on this subject, I don't want to argue in circles with Japanese nationalists.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

I don't know what nigelboy has been reading, but it's proven by world historians that it was the Japanese military government which created the comfort stations, and ran the stations to their liking, preventing the women from leaving. The very act of holding them and preventing them to leave, is called kidnapping and forced confinement - doesn't matter who recruited these women and how they were recruited. This is my last post on this subject, I don't want to argue in circles with Japanese nationalists.

Nope. Once the debts were paid, it was the discretion of the brothel owners to make those decisions. This is verified from the U.S. archives and the recently discovered diary of Korean brothel owner. Some continued to stay on and others have operated their own shops.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@ Kazuaki,

Thank you for taking the time to write your reply.

My main point was that this legal action in Japan against the Asahi, however it turns out, makes no difference whatsoever to the comfort women issue as a whole. You haven't persuaded me otherwise. It is an action against one newspaper (which has little influence or relevance outside Japan) over its reporting based on one discredited source. Nothing more. However much you may disagree with that statement, that is the case both legally and in terms of how the world at large will see it. So when you say:

For this and other reasons, to both sides a ruling in Japan has more weight than in any place including the Hague

I say you are mistaken.

let's face it: 200,000 Korean women were sold to Japanese brothels by Korean daddies just doesn't have the same ring as Japanese military directly coerced 200,000 women to become sex slaves, and we all know it

The other main point in my earlier post was that even if every single comfort woman had been sold to the Japanese military by her own father, that would not absolve Japan of any blame. If Japan bought 200,000 women, that represents one of the most utterly abhorrent crimes against women in history, and certainly the largest scale one. Note that I don't frame this just as a crime against Korea, China, or any other particular country (though of course it was). It was a crime against women, by the Japanese military, and it must not be forgot.

As for banging on about how their own fathers sold them, the Japanese right are arguing that if those girls were sold, then the Koreans are hypocrites, and that Japan therefore did nothing wrong. That is tu quoque reasoning and is not a valid position. The operator of the comfort stations which sourced and purchased the women to be used in them was the Japanese military, and even if those women were owed an apology by their fathers, they would still be owed an apology from Japan.

On that note, the words of PM Murayama:

"The problem of the so-called wartime comfort women is one such scar, which, with the involvement of the Japanese military forces of the time, seriously stained the honor and dignity of many women. This is entirely inexcusable. I offer my profound apology to all those who, as wartime comfort women, suffered emotional and physical wounds that can never be closed"

The reason Japan's reputation is still being damaged by the comfort women issue is not that the Asahi printed some falsehoods. It's that the Japanese right keep bringing it up again and again in denial of the Murayama statement.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Like I said, the system of private brothel attaching themselves to the military is not illegal at that time.

nigelboy, are you actually thoroughly reading the posts that you comment on?

If you always repeat the same 3 arguments again and again, apparently without noticing that counterarguments already addressed your points, it doesn't make sense to engage in a discussion with you here.

But then I suppose engaging in a discussion is not your thing.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

nigelboy, are you actually thoroughly reading the posts that you comment on?

Yes.

If you always repeat the same 3 arguments again and again, apparently without noticing that counterarguments already addressed your points, it doesn't make sense to engage in a discussion with you here.

You really haven't countered anything. Prostitution was legal at that time. It was the private operators who recruited these women. If they recruited them illegally (against the law), it's the individuals that are responsible. You cannot get any simpler than this.

For some unknown reason, you want to extend what these indivduals allegedly did to that of the Japanese military who took no part in the illegal recruitment. Those few Japanese military units that did so were punished accordingly by the Japanese authority and subsequently the Allieds during the IMFTE. (Semarang case) This was an exception and not the 'norm'.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

If there wasn't such a big market for it Nihon Ryu, maybe there wouldn't be so many. It certainly does reflect poorly on certain people - and I am not talking about the sex workers. Nice try!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

You really haven't countered anything.

If you read the thread above you can find many of my and other peoples posts with links and references that countered your arguments already.

And even just briefly skimming the <awf.or.jp> site, being funded by the Japanese government not exactly an independent source, can we find many more pieces of evidence, testimonies, documents and statements by Japanese politicians, including prime ministers, that prove your arguments here incorrect.

So unless you bring any new information I don't see the need to discuss your points any further here.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

And even just briefly skimming the <awf.or.jp> site, being funded by the Japanese government not exactly an independent source, can we find many more pieces of evidence, testimonies, documents and statements by Japanese politicians, including prime ministers, that prove your arguments here incorrect.

I don't see anywhere that it agrees with the narrative of "more than 200,000 Asian and Dutch women who were removed from their homes in Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, The Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, East Timor and Indonesia to be coerced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Armed Forces of Japan between 1932 and 1945" or similar.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Someone wrote to nigleboy. If you always repeat the same 3 arguments again and again, apparently without noticing that counterarguments already addressed your points, it doesn't make sense to engage in a discussion with you here.

========================================================\

I am not his fun and often I used to nitpick him. Npw, I do not rush to redicule him because he does not write same things over and over unless he was asked or defending his comment.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Back to topic, We are talking about time Japan was fascism when people did not have any right. Also time was female was ranked between pet and fish. Man top, pet second because pet obey master. I used to say men are between cat and fish in middle school. My reasoning was that Japanese men chase after girls like cats chase after fish. Japanese ,militaqry proudly declared it found to have useless feamle for war cause when it created Joshi teishin tai.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I don't see anywhere that it agrees with the narrative of "more than 200,000 Asian and Dutch women who were removed from their homes in Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, The Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, East Timor and Indonesia to be coerced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Armed Forces of Japan between 1932 and 1945" or similar.

Apparently you didn't read my posts as this was not my argument and I didn't claim this anywhere. What I claim and what is corroborated without doubts on the awf site is that the Japanese military authorities were responsible for

creating and managing the comfort stations

coercing and trafficking a large number of women either directly or through henchmen

keeping those women often agains their will constrained in inhumane conditions

and you nigelboy are trying to deny or obfuscate those facts that have even been official Japanese government position until ultranationalist Abe started his anti-historic "beautiful Japan" propaganda crusade.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

coercing and trafficking a large number of women either directly or through henchmen

Nope. If there were any coercion, this was done by the middlemen/operators alone. As evidenced by the Kono Statement review, there were no evidence whatsoever that suggested the military authorized such actions to these individuals.

keeping those women often agains their will constrained in inhumane conditions

Nope again. This is another claim where you need to show evidence for their living conditions and their movement were on par with the military personnel at whatever locations they were stationed.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@Kazuaki

Hello again, my last post only addressed half of your points as it was getting too long! Here's the rest:

Well, that's still fine, but just counting OSCE countries, how many countries do you think there are who does not raise their people with a version of history that puts Japan in the black of the black category?

There are 57 countries in the OSCE. I was raised in one of them, and I learned nothing whatsoever about Japan in the process. I have also lived in 3 more of the OSCE countries, and have visited the majority of the others. To answer your question, I would say that in fact none of them raise their people with a version of history that puts Japan in the black of the black. I also think that that is an absurdly defensive position, and I find it quite illuminating that Japan's right wing see things that way.

All of my opinions about Japanese WWII history have been formed as an adult, following the end of my formal education. They are based on my own experiences and observations in Asia, and the many conversations I have had with Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, and SE Asians. In Japan I have been to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Yushukan at Yasukuni; in China, I've been to Harbin (Unit 731) and Nanking; and in Thailand, the Death Railway, Hellfire Pass memorial, the River Kwai and the war cemeteries in Kanchanaburi. All harrowing places (other than the Yushukan, which is execrable), and my opinions on Japan in WWII are based on my visits to them, the reading up I did on each of them, and the many opinions I have heard in conversation.

If people on this board any indication

It is likely that most people on this board, like myself, grew up with no bias against Japan and have formed their opinions on Japan's WWII history while living in Japan.

Here's where you guys can help if you can put down your ire and pick up your evidence

I think even you must admit that China and Korea must be out, and in return Japan would be out of it

"You guys?" Which guys? "Even you?" Even who? Excuse me sir, but you and I have exchanged a total of two messages and my posting history on this site extends to just a dozen posts, so don't start making it personal or assigning me to a group of people holding views you want to argue against.

I'm not a Japan-basher; nor am I a Japanese nationalist. Or a Korean nationalist, or a Chinese one, or any other; I am not part of any group with fixed positions on Japan. I find that nationalist arguments (all of them, not just uyoku ones) are usually the least convincing arguments to be heard on any international issue. On each issue concerning Japan, I have opinions based not upon an overarching position of either supporting or opposing Japan, but based on the arguments which have been the most convincing concerning that particular issue. So when I disagree with you on comfort women, you are absolutely logically mistaken to then ascribe such a position to me that you would address me with "you guys" and "even you".

The foaming at the mouth responses of the West

Foaming at the mouth? You really are being over the top with that statement.

Japan is as close to flat ground as you can find for any issue concerning Japan in WWII

As the only country on Earth which is actively trying to change the perception of WWII, it most definitely is not.

I am just suspicious of the accuracy of any cosensus that look more established by a mix of screaming voices

The only screaming I have ever heard on the subject of Japanese history was being done in Japan, by Japanese people in military-flag-bearing black vans with megaphones.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The Kono statement reads:

Comfort stations were operated in response to the request of the military authorities of the day. The then Japanese military was, directly or indirectly, involved in the establishment and management of the comfort stations and the transfer of comfort women. The recruitment of the comfort women was conducted mainly by private recruiters who acted in response to the request of the military. The Government study has revealed that in many cases they were recruited against their own will, through coaxing coercion, etc., and that, at times, administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments. They lived in misery at comfort stations under a coercive atmosphere.

The Korean Peninsula was under Japanese rule in those days, and their recruitment, transfer, control, etc., were conducted generally against their will, through coaxing, coercion, etc. Undeniably, this was an act, with the involvement of the military authorities of the day, that severely injured the honor and dignity of many women.

Note that even the Japanese government admits that: at times, administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments.

and

They lived in misery at comfort stations under a coercive atmosphere.

keeping those women often agains their will constrained in inhumane conditions

Nope again. This is another claim where you need to show evidence for

There is plenty of testimonies and evidence all over the awf site.

For a starter the testimonies of former comfort women:

http://www.awf.or.jp/e3/oralhistory-00.html

Another good source for how the Japanese military was directly involved in coercion and confinement is the Final Report of Philippine government:

http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/ALCS.pdf

Or the Taiwanese testimony

http://www.awf.or.jp/e1/taiwan.html

Or the Dutch report is also full of accounts of of direct involvement of Tokkeitai and Kempetai and also shows that the Semarang case was no exception at all in regards to coercion and confinement of foreign and local women in Indonesia:

http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0205.pdf

just two excerpts:

The Tokeitai was responsible for recruiting prostitutes.

In the latter half of 1943, policy underwent a change when the army and the military government decided to take the establishment of brothels into their own hands, with the assistance of Japanese and Korean pimps. This occurred in Batavia, Bandung, Pekalongan, Magelang, Semarang and Bondowoso. European women were recruited for these brothels, the army and the Kempetai using physical force in some cases on women both from the camps and elsewhere.

I really don't know what you mean if you say there is no evidence for direct involvement of the Japanese military authorities, nigelboy.

You probably only read what fits your view and regard the hundreds of former comfort women testimonies as fabrication.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Note that even the Japanese government admits that: at times, administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments.

As Professor Nishioka states in his papers.

"...In the statement, the wording that “at times, administrative/military personnel directly took part in the recruitments” is the passage that most strongly invites misinterpretation. Japanese government officials in charge at the time, when asked about the meaning of this particular part of the statement, responded that it derives from a “war crimes” case in Indonesia where some Japanese Army units forced Dutch women in a prisoner-of-war camp to work in a brothel for some months.After the war that incident was submitted to the War Crimes Tribunal conducted by the Netherlands, at which the judgment was taken against certain Japanese military officers and civilians who were sentenced to death and executed..."

Semarang case.

This case have been used over and over but again, this operations was closed down and the responsible officer was reprimanded by the Japanese authorities once this was discovered further proving that such conduct was never condoned by the top.

There is plenty of testimonies and evidence all over the awf site.

More testimonies that cannot their events could not be confirmed other than the Semarang case.

I really don't know what you mean if you say there is no evidence for direct involvement of the Japanese military authorities, nigelboy

You cited one and I agreed that there is one in Semarang case @ Feb. 22, 2015 - 03:52AM JST

Everything else you provided are testimonies 50+ years after the alleged incident and as I alluded to in the previous posts, there are many versions of their testimonies 'on record' with interview in the press, speaking engagements, published accounts, and for some, actual civil court testimonies in which they testified that they were sold by their parents. That alone is not worthy of discredit nor validation.

You probably only read what fits your view and regard the hundreds of former comfort women testimonies as fabrication.

No. I place weight on evidences that are primary which are the Allieds' reports on captured units and post war criminal investigations that followed which resulted in the prosecution of individuals under the following set forth by the London charters

(b) WAR CRIMES: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;

(c)CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

Over 2,300 cases and over 5,700 individuals indicted. To say that these Japanese military personnels at that time were able to avoid the 'allegations' stated by these former comfort women is simply horse $$$$.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

As Professor Nishioka states in his papers.

Are you talking about the Prof. Tsutomu Nishioka who is accusing a former Asahi journalist of fabricating articles? Nishioka's views on the comfort women issue are in line with Abe, but what he says about the Kono statement is purely his interpretation not yet the official position of the Japanese government, but of course Abe want's to change that. As we could read in a previous article Nishioka is now a defendant in a defamation law suit as he openly accused the Asahi journalist of lying and lead a right-wing media witch-hunt against the journalist. Not exactly a credible academic position, but we will see how that works out.

More testimonies that cannot their events could not be confirmed other than the Semarang case.

Difficult to guess what you are trying to say here, but I believe you are trying to brush away several hundreds of testimonies by the victims here.

No. I place weight on evidences that are primary which are the Allieds' reports on captured units and post war criminal investigations that followed which resulted in the prosecution of individuals under the following set forth by the London charters

So you "place weight on evidences" from a time when the comfort women issue was not seen as an issue. How can you call that evidences? Obviously thats good for your argument, but doesn't help us with what really happened.

Everybody who deals with sexual abuse crimes knows that it usually takes years if not decades before victims are able to come forward and speak about their ordeal. Ever heard of this? It's commonplace knowledge in criminal justice.

Therefor I believe the most comprehensive official reports that deal with the comfort women issue are the ones from the Dutch and the Philippine governments and they both have clear reference to direct involvement of the Japanese military in many instances. And the testimonies those reports are based on have not been refuted by the Japanese government.

Everything else you provided are testimonies 50+ years after the alleged incident and as I alluded to in the previous posts, there are many versions of their testimonies 'on record'

We know why most of the former comfort women didn't come forward earlier and we know that testimonies from decades ago can not be consistent in every respect, but what we get from the large number of very similar testimonies from various nations is a very clear picture of horrible abuse with direct involvement of the Japanese military. In a court case you would call that overwhelming testimonial evidence.

It is only the revisionist historians in Japan that keep saying all testimonies are false, fabricated, lies, etc., but those claims, that are obviously also your claims nigelboy, in their entirety are baseless and dishonor the victims once again.

Over 2,300 cases and over 5,700 individuals indicted. To say that these Japanese military personnels at that time were able to avoid the 'allegations' stated by these former comfort women is simply horse

Taking into account that far more then 20 million Asian civilians died as a result of direct and indirect violence from the Japanese military, we can guess that a large number of guilty Japanese military personal managed to avoid indictment.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Are you talking about the Prof. Tsutomu Nishioka who is accusing a former Asahi journalist of fabricating articles? Nishioka's views on the comfort women issue are in line with Abe, but what he says about the Kono statement is purely his interpretation not yet the official position of the Japanese government, but of course Abe want's to change that. As we could read in a previous article Nishioka is now a defendant in a defamation law suit as he openly accused the Asahi journalist of lying and lead a right-wing media witch-hunt against the journalist. Not exactly a credible academic position, but we will see how that works out.

Is this your best defense? Uemura did intentionally fabricate the articles. Any person with common sense would realize that Teishintai and comfort women are two diferent things.

Difficult to guess what you are trying to say here, but I believe you are trying to brush away several hundreds of testimonies by the victims here.

Brush away. Not put weight. Yes.

So you "place weight on evidences" from a time when the comfort women issue was not seen as an issue. How can you call that evidences? Obviously thats good for your argument, but doesn't help us with what really happened.

There is a reason why comfort women system was not an issue. It's simply a private brothel attached to the military.

Everybody who deals with sexual abuse crimes knows that it usually takes years if not decades before victims are able to come forward and speak about their ordeal. Ever heard of this? It's commonplace knowledge in criminal justice.

And it will simply remain as 'allegation' unless the alleged victim identifies the perpetrator which they had a chance to do so when the Allieds were investigating such crimes.

Therefor I believe the most comprehensive official reports that deal with the comfort women issue are the ones from the Dutch and the Philippine governments and they both have clear reference to direct involvement of the Japanese military in many instances. And the testimonies those reports are based on have not been refuted by the Japanese government.

The Dutch case is the Semarang case which is very detailed. There are reports of Manila brothels in the U.S. report (awf site) which gives the details of the operations as well. (Amenities in the Japanese Armed Forces pg. 143-146) which details the strict regulations imposed on the operators as well as the soldiers.

We know why most of the former comfort women didn't come forward earlier and we know that testimonies from decades ago can not be consistent in every respect, but what we get from the large number of very similar testimonies from various nations is a very clear picture of horrible abuse with direct involvement of the Japanese military. In a court case you would call that overwhelming testimonial evidence.

No it does not. Just because hundreds of people all over claim that they have been abducted by aliens and give similar testimonies to their alleged incidents does not prove that such events happened.

It is only the revisionist historians in Japan that keep saying all testimonies are false, fabricated, lies, etc., but those claims, that are obviously also your claims nigelboy, in their entirety are baseless and dishonor the victims once again

Never stated as such. I stated that I don't place weight on them for they were not corroborated or were subject to cross examination.

Taking into account that far more then 20 million Asian civilians died as a result of direct and indirect violence from the Japanese military, we can guess that a large number of guilty Japanese military personal managed to avoid indictment.

Again, with the "Japan bad, therefore this must also be true as well" type argument.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Uemura did intentionally fabricate the articles.

This is purely your prejudge and a personally insulting claim. In the heated up atmosphere we are observing now in Japan in doing so you are becoming an accomplice to the Uyoku people who are assaulting and threatening Uemura and his family.

And it will simply remain as 'allegation' unless the alleged victim identifies the perpetrator which they had a chance to do so when the Allieds were investigating such crimes.

History is not a law suit and the vast majority of historians and the international public opinion believes that the testimonies are not mere allegations, but prove that the Japanese military was directly involved in crimes against humanity.

It would have been good though if a comprehensive international law suit could have addressed the comfort women issue.

Anyway the international investigators, Dutch, Philippine and others thoroughly checked the testimonies and clearly stated if they couldn't corroborate the information through other channels.

And if we consider the circumstances in which the comfort women were coerced and confined to ask them to identify their perpetrator is very cynical and not realistic suggestion. Most comfort women never met the Japanese military officers that were responsible for the actions agains them.

We also have many testimonies by former Japanese soldiers that do corroborate the comfort women testimonies.

So your claim that everything is only allegations defies common sense.

(Amenities in the Japanese Armed Forces pg. 143-146) which details the strict regulations imposed on the operators as well as the soldiers.

We know that the "strict regulations" were not that strict at all, except for the health check of the comfort women, which was meticulously implemented to prevent the spread of venereal diseases. The working hours, the number of customers and many of the other regulations were not strictly imposed and habitually breached, especially after 1942-43 when the war got out of control and the Japanese military command was struggling to keep up fighting morale.

Never stated as such. I stated that I don't place weight on them for they were not corroborated or were subject to cross examination.

As also mentioned above this is not true, the international inquires did corroborate testimonies as far as possible.

No it does not. Just because hundreds of people all over claim that they have been abducted by aliens and give similar testimonies to their alleged incidents does not prove that such events happened.

Ok, nigelboy, I believe we get a rough idea about what would be needed to convince you that something really happened.

Again, with the "Japan bad, therefore this must also be true as well" type argument.

No, I don't believe at all that Japanese are inherently bad. Nor do I believe Germans or any other population are. But I know that humans are capable of doing really horrible things and that we need to look at those instances without window dressing if we want to prevent them from happening again.

Also I was putting your numbers in perspective and show you that it is literally impossible to thoroughly come to legal terms with such a massive and horrible war.

..................

To get back to those 2100 people who are fighting against Asahi newspaper for their "reputation" once more before I sign off.

It seems really pathetic to jump on such a law suite when the Asahi newspaper has already apologized for its wrongdoings and is in a weak position anyway. To me this kind of behavior is incomprehensible, e.g. to rub in if someone is on the floor already.

I believe if they are really worried about their reputation they should lean back and look at the big picture of history and squarely face where Japan is in there. Then they might be able to grasp what could be important for gaining reputation on an international stage.

But they would then see that they now appear like a bunch of self-righteous nitpickers who get exited when they can bash someone on the floor. Not exactly good for your reputation.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

This is purely your prejudge and a personally insulting claim. In the heated up atmosphere we are observing now in Japan in doing so you are becoming an accomplice to the Uyoku people who are assaulting and threatening Uemura and his family.

There you go with the "Uyoku" reference. Those acadamics and professionals (including Nishioka, Yoshiko Sakurai) are simply being criticial of Uemura's handling of the article after several had pointed out the errors and ommissions waay before Asahi's retraction. Him playing the 'victim' card when the walls caved in is just plain pathetic.

History is not a law suit and the vast majority of historians and the international public opinion believes that the testimonies are not mere allegations, but prove that the Japanese military was directly involved in crimes against humanity.

Don't confuse non academic feminist group members as "international public opinion". Your attempt to label them as such and use them as some sort of 'shield' to deflect my argument is also rather pathetic. And again, crimes against humanity falls under Class C of the London charters in which those who were responsible, as in individuals, were arrested and tried under IMTFE.

Anyway the international investigators, Dutch, Philippine and others thoroughly checked the testimonies and clearly stated if they couldn't corroborate the information through other channels.

They did not 'thoroughly' check the testimonies for validity especially the Phillipines. They merely took their testimonies as a 'given' since that was not the organization's role.

And if we consider the circumstances in which the comfort women were coerced and confined to ask them to identify their perpetrator is very cynical and not realistic suggestion. Most comfort women never met the Japanese military officers that were responsible for the actions agains them.

It is not. That's how the 5,700+ were arrested and indicted in IMTFE held throughout parts of Asia.

We also have many testimonies by former Japanese soldiers that do corroborate the comfort women testimonies.

No they do not. What the 'soldiers', in China had seen or witnessed, has no bearing on the allegation of a comfort woman in the Phillippines. Different time, different place.

We know that the "strict regulations" were not that strict at all, except for the health check of the comfort women, which was meticulously implemented to prevent the spread of venereal diseases. The working hours, the number of customers and many of the other regulations were not strictly imposed and habitually breached, especially after 1942-43 when the war got out of control and the Japanese military command was struggling to keep up fighting morale.

The 'strict regulations' include not allowing soldiers to enter the premise if he is intoxicated, ordering to carefully screen through back ground checks (police issued) the operators for some are recruiting underage girls under false pretenses, issuing adivisement to the soldier to pay for the property damage incurred at the brothel to the operator, prepaid ticket to be paid in advance, and women can refuse services for certain conduct such as persons carrying liquor, refusal to wear protection, or 'persons who may exert bad influence'. Those are all there from the Allied reports and archives.

No, I don't believe at all that Japanese are inherently bad. Nor do I believe Germans or any other population are. But I know that humans are capable of doing really horrible things and that we need to look at those instances without window dressing if we want to prevent them from happening again.

And this lawsuit is essentially removing the parts that contributed to western media and so-called academics to inflate the narrative of, for instance, ".. The Japanese army forcibly recruited, conscripted, and dragooned as many as two hundred thousand women age fourteen to twenty to serve in military brothels, called "comfort houses" or "consolation centers". The army presented the women to the troops as a gift from the emperor,.."

As to the remedy itself, I believe the financial part is frivolous. But I do agree to their move to publish an advertisement for their mistakes much like Asahi wrote a retraction article. While many Westerners who read it will be mostly be unaware nor care about such advertisement, at least these western media journalist will think about coming up with a new narrative which is different from their usual boiler plate paragraphs they have used in the past.

Last year's Kono Statement report and the subsequent retraction by Asahi changed the atmosphere of the comfort women issue in Japan for in general, those who were sympathetic to the cause have now turned against them. This is why such lawsuits are coming up.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Those acadamics and professionals (including Nishioka, Yoshiko Sakurai) are simply being criticial of Uemura's handling

Being critical and claiming someone is lying and fabricating facts are two very different animals.

The two you mention are not known for unbiased research, but rather for ideological crusades. Yoshiko Sakurai is a member of the Nippon Kaigi - an organisation that promotes a revival of the fundamentals of the Empire of Japan, and the return to Imperial Japan's monarchy and State Shinto with a restoration of the Emperor's god-like status - and she denies that the Nanking massacre happened. Great company!

At least we know now who are your intellectual firebugs.

Don't confuse non academic feminist group members as "international public opinion".

So can you tell me which international public opinion this lawsuit is addressing? "Non academic feminist groups"?

It is not. That's how the 5,700+ were arrested and indicted in IMTFE held throughout parts of Asia.

I don't know what your are talking about. Except for one case non of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East cases were about comfort women. As explained above the prosecutors didn't know about the extent and seriousness of comfort women issue yet.

Those are all there from the Allied reports and archives.

The Allied reports you love to mention so often were mere interviews of PWO, didn't do any first hand research and, as you are so worried about cross-examinations, they didn't do any of that either. The Allied reports were not interested in the facts surrounding the comfort womens' situation and rights. They were conducted to get a general understanding of the enemies situation. If they had done a more thorough inquiry and had asked other questions they surely could have revealed the reality in the comfort stations.

And btw. could you give us some evidence that the strict regulations were strictly obeyed? We have many testimonies that regulations were largely not obeyed, but from what I know we don't have many accounts of how rules were enforced in the military brothels.

And this lawsuit is essentially removing the parts that contributed to western media and so-called academics to inflate the narrative of,

This lawsuit will once again heat up the discussion about comfort women in Japan and surely "inspire" even more Uyoku-type complex ridden revisionists to attack and insult everybody who openly talks about Japanese war time atrocities.

It will further reinforce the witch-hunt atmosphere that Abe and his Nippon Kaigi fellows are promoting behind the scenes to weaken opposition to their backward-looking ideological mission, knowing well that bashing anybody left from the center is seen as acceptable in Japan and will help silence critical voices.

Abroad the lawsuit will leave people interested in Japan clueless, once again reinforcing the image of Japan being more then anything occupied with itself.

To wrap up the discussion, here a link to a revealing video of the Foreign Correspondents Club session with two main actors of the Asahi lawsuit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxT_eia9QgE

Pathetic how they tell the floor that foreign correspondents in Japan need more education... the way the two talk with and about foreigners exposes them as prejudiced, insulting and xenophobic. They show us with their high-handed arguing how shallow and selfish their cause is.

If the current tendency goes on and Abe's nationalist agenda promotes such people even more into the center of Japans political stage then international reputation will be the least of problems.

cheers!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I really try to like and respect Japan. But story after story like this makes me want to vomit and fly home.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@nigelboy

And this lawsuit is essentially removing the parts that contributed to western media and so-called academics to inflate the narrative

No it is not. Even were this lawsuit to be successful, it would do nothing of the sort. I know that this is what the Japanese right wishes, and I know this is why they're going after the Asahi in court. But they are mistaken. Earlier on this thread, you accused my of having an unprecedented pipe dream. I have absolutely no idea what you meant by that (and you were not good enough to address my request for you to clarify it); but the idea that this lawsuit removes "the parts that contributed to western media and so-called academics to inflate the narrative" is very much a pipe dream. It will not change anything. e.g. last year the Japanese government asked the UN to revise its 1996 report based on the Asahi's retractions. The request was immediately rejected because:

Yoshida's 'testimony' was just one of many, so its being false changes very little. The UN report didn't use any material from the Asahi; it took the information directly from Yoshida's book, so the Asahi's reporting made no difference. The UN report contains a full paragraph explaining that Yoshida's evidence was of questionable veracity and therefore giving it little weight.

The same response can be expected from the world at large; that the Asahi's admission that Yoshida's evidence was false doesn't change anything.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@GindbergLLC

Don't be so hard on yourself. As you know, Japan isn't a perfect world. Hold the vomit and fly home.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

bam_booFeb. 24, 2015 - 08:36PM JST

I recommend this http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf, which is an exaughstive collection of documents during WW2 in the US Archives. Read from page 287 backwards to page 125. Let truth be our guide.

Testimonies of Korean former ianfu are, I find, untrustworthy, because they change every time. These are what former ianfu, YONG SOO LEE, testified before US Congress. http://archives.republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/33317.pdf

(page 17) I live in Taegu, South Korea. My name is Lee Yong Soo, and sometimes I am a 14-year-old girl, and I look outside my window, and there is a girl, and there is a Japanese man, and they are saying something to each other, and they are gesturing me to come out. I did not know anything. I did not know what was going on but they gestured me to come out so I came out, and as you seen her dress, the girl and the Japanese soldier put their hand on my shoulder, and covered my mouth, and the soldier put something against my back, and like that in the middle of the night I was taken away.

(page 20) In the autumn of 1944, when I was 16 years old, my friend, Kim Punsun, and I were collecting shellfish at the riverside when we noticed an elderly man and a Japanese man looking down at us form the hillside. A few days later, Punsun knocked on my window early in the morning, and whispered to me to follow her quietly. I tip-toed out of the house after her. I lift without telling my mother. I followed my friend until we met the same man who had tried to approach us on the riverbank. He looked as if he was in his late thirties and he wore a sort of People's Army uniform with a combat cap. Altogether, there were five girls with him, including myself.

Can you imagine these are the testimonies by the same person?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@Yoshitsune

The UN report contains a full paragraph explaining that Yoshida's evidence was of questionable veracity and therefore giving it little weight.

What irresponsibility. They feel it is of "questionable veracity" but nevertheless keep it, giving the UN seal of approval.

You could actually be right, but your side (I'll get to this later) does not act like it. Nobody seems willing to just say "Ah, who cares. Asahi screwed up and deserves the lawsuit, let's give them that. We have a whole pile of evidence left." Instead, the attitude seems to be to fight for it as if it is the last piece of evidence left. Which is it?

I know you've objected to the phrase "your side". On the other hand, you have implicitly accused me of being a right-winger, so IMO you are in a weak position. Further, I must honestly admit I am unable to differentiate you from the swarm other than being more polite than most. I don't know whether your stance of "even if every single comfort woman had been sold to the Japanese military by her own father, that would not absolve Japan of any blame" is your Original Position or your Fallback position, but in my experience, it is often the fallback position of many on your side (after they realize it might be tough getting a charge of 200,000 comfort women = 200,000 sex slaves to stick with the amount & quality of evidence they have.)

I was raised in one of them, and I learned nothing whatsoever about Japan in the process.

Really. Your school's history book did not even mention Japan once. I must wonder what did it write for WWII then?

They are based on my own experiences and observations in Asia

I must wonder ... how many of them did you go to with as little preconception as you imply with your first line? Because your rundown of places suggest a certain narrative had already ingrained itself in your mind as you went to most of them. Further, if you really knew nothing about the related history, you can't possibly find Yasukuni (or any other narrative) execrable since you have no base for comparison. This is simple logic.

grew up with no bias against Japan and have formed their opinions on Japan's WWII history while living in Japan.

Since Japan generally tries to not talk too much about it, that'd be hard. However, it is very easy to pick up on the Allied historiography of WWII Japan out there. By the time they can choose to go to Japan, unless they led very sequestered lives, they already have a bias loaded.

So when I disagree with you on comfort women, you are absolutely logically mistaken to then ascribe such a position to me

To the meat of the issue: If there is indeed a court battle in the Hague, do you agree or disagree that China and Korea are not neutral enough to serve as judge candidates. If you agree, then "even you" is reasonably close to the truth. If you disagree, forgive me - I have tried to think optimistically of you in my way, but you might yet surprise me if you come up with truly innovative reasoning.

Foaming at the mouth? You really are being over the top with that statement.

"I really try to like and respect Japan. But story after story like this makes me want to vomit and fly home."

One statement out of many (this one's right above one of your posts). Frankly, any time when you connect a stance on a piece of history with character, you are unobjective and resorting to ad hominem attacks. And if you are to the point of vomiting, you are pretty rabid. So foaming at the mouth is not a huge overstretch.

As the only country on Earth which is actively trying to change the perception of WWII

First, this is an exaggeration since plenty of people in Japan also are on your side (From your net-name, I actually guessed you are Japanese). Second, you have just accidentally conceded to me on a basic point - Japan may well be the only country in the world that even has a significant population with a different view of what happened there. That is significantly better than countries that have already completely made up their minds. Popularity is not the same as flatness.

Japanese people in military-flag-bearing black vans with megaphones.

Such people supposedly exist, but I never met them. Certainly, the "uyoku" here are a lot more rational and willing to put up links than their opposition, which are quite loud.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Being critical and claiming someone is lying and fabricating facts are two very different animals.

Not really. They are being critical due to his fabrication.

The two you mention are not known for unbiased research, but rather for ideological crusades. Yoshiko Sakurai is a member of the Nippon Kaigi - an organisation that promotes a revival of the fundamentals of the Empire of Japan, and the return to Imperial Japan's monarchy and State Shinto with a restoration of the Emperor's god-like status - and she denies that the Nanking massacre happened. Great company!

There you go again. Did you even bother to read their papers? I doubt it.

So can you tell me which international public opinion this lawsuit is addressing? "Non academic feminist groups"?

There is no such thing as an 'international public opinion'. That's my point.

I don't know what your are talking about. Except for one case non of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East cases were about comfort women. As explained above the prosecutors didn't know about the extent and seriousness of comfort women issue yet.

Of course they did. They found nothing except for the misconduct in Semarang.

The Allied reports you love to mention so often were mere interviews of PWO, didn't do any first hand research and, as you are so worried about cross-examinations, they didn't do any of that either. The Allied reports were not interested in the facts surrounding the comfort womens' situation and rights. They were conducted to get a general understanding of the enemies situation. If they had done a more thorough inquiry and had asked other questions they surely could have revealed the reality in the comfort stations.

Interviews with POW which included comfort women. You're just simply frustrated that they didn't run to the arms of the Allied soldiers. The problem with your line of thinking is that you automatically assume the wrongdoing (taking 50+ years after the alleged incident testimony at face value) when common sense is simply that there exists no such wrongdoings hence the Allieds didn't prosecute what didn't exist.

And btw. could you give us some evidence that the strict regulations were strictly obeyed? We have many testimonies that regulations were largely not obeyed, but from what I know we don't have many accounts of how rules were enforced in the military brothels.

Again, testimonies 50+ years after the fact are merely accusations and the burden of proof is on the accuser. Better question to you is why have regulations in order only to be disobeyed?

Pathetic how they tell the floor that foreign correspondents in Japan need more education... the way the two talk with and about foreigners exposes them as prejudiced, insulting and xenophobic. They show us with their high-handed arguing how shallow and selfish their cause is.

No. It exposes these foreign correspondents of how clueless they were and it exposes their prejudiced, insulting and xenophobic nature for their repeated BS narrative I quoted above.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Most of these people suing Asahi are neither right wingers nor revisionists A point that the extremly biased AFP doesn't bother to address.

.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@Kazuaki

You could actually be right, but your side (I'll get to this later) does not act like it. Nobody seems willing to just say "Ah, who cares. Asahi screwed up and deserves the lawsuit, let's give them that. We have a whole pile of evidence left." Instead, the attitude seems to be to fight for it as if it is the last piece of evidence left. Which is it?

I don't care about the Asahi. They did screw up. I've never read it and I'm not fighting for it. What I'm arguing is that this lawsuit against the Asahi is just that and that alone; a lawsuit against the Asahi. It is not a judgement on the entire comfort women issue; the Japanese right is trying to portray it that way, and that's what I'm arguing against.

I know you've objected to the phrase "your side"

You didn't say "your side", you said "you guys". I'm still not sure who "you guys" is.

On the other hand, you have implicitly accused me of being a right-winger, so IMO you are in a weak position

Tu quoque. If I have done that, it's irrelevant to my position; which is that the outcome of this case against the Asahi has no bearing on the comfort women issue as a whole. In any case, it's not an accusation I'm levelling at you - I've been reading this site for quite some time before signing up and have read many of your older posts; you do usually argue from a nationalist perspective, but I have seen that your opinions are not uniformly in line with the right-wing position on all issues. I do see a sentence in my last post which implies that I think you're a right-winger, but it wasn't my intention to do so and I apologise.

Really. Your school's history book did not even mention Japan once. I must wonder what did it write for WWII then?

That is correct. If there was any mention of Japan and the Asia-Pacific war, it was in passing. I grew up in Europe and my formal education on WWII was entirely concerned with the European war. I'm not saying that's a good thing, mind; but your claim that "my side" are raised with an anti-Japan bias is false. (It may be different in the case of Americans and Australians (are they "my side"?), I don't know what their textbooks say; and of course many of them have heard directly their own fathers' and grandfathers' experiences)

I must wonder ... how many of them did you go to with as little preconception as you imply with your first line? Because your rundown of places suggest a certain narrative had already ingrained itself in your mind as you went to most of them

How does my rundown of places suggest I already had an ingrained narrative? Balderdash. You'll have to explain that. The order I wrote them in? The fact that they all concern Japan?

But I haven't only visited sites connected to Japan's war history. I've been to over 60 countries, and I always visit such sites in order to learn the history. I've also been to war cemeteries and memorials in France and Belgium, Nazi concentration camps in eastern Europe, the KGB prison in Vilnius, a preserved GULAG prison (Perm-36) in Russia's Ural region, Dresden, Seodaemun prison (Seoul), Gwangju (also Korea, but nothing to do with Japan), Phonsavan in Laos (heavily bombed by the US in the Vietnam war) and the museums and memorials in Vietnam itself, and the Killing Fields and the Tuol Sleng (S-21 prison) in Phnom Penh. That such horrors have ever occurred is a failure of humanity. We have to record and remember them, and educate for the future so that they don't happen again; it isn't about blame and national pride.

As for the order in which I visited the Japan-related sites, the first of those I visited were actually the ones in Thailand. I hadn't been raised with any particular narrative on Japan, all i had was an impression that it was a nice country populated by nice people (an impression which I have verified by living here!). So I was stunned by the Hellfire Pass memorial and the cruelty it documents. That was the first time I'd even considered Japan's role in the war or wondered about why she entered it.

if you really knew nothing about the related history, you can't possibly find Yasukuni (or any other narrative) execrable since you have no base for comparison. This is simple logic

Correct. Also simple logic is that I didn't visit these places in Thailand, China and Japan at the same time. As I said above, I went to the sites in Kanchanaburi before I had been to Japan. So when I later visited the Yushukan, yes I did already have some idea about the related history (but not one given me by biased school books) - and the first thing I saw in the museum's lobby was one of the original locomotive engines from the Death Railway. Now, if there had been some information there about what had actually happened during the construction of that railway, some indication that horrendous human rights abuses had occurred, it would be a great thing to have it there; humanity remembering the past, and educating for the future to make sure such things never happen again. But there is no information at all; the sign next to the engine simply states that the railway was constructed by ABC division, and officers XYZ grouped together after the war to buy the engine and bring it back to Japan for posterity. And there it is, a symbol of misery and death lovingly displayed for posterity. The museum also claims that Japanese troops were welcomed by the Chinese as liberators. Now, regardless of what anyone claims about how many were killed in Nanjing and who is to blame (and lets not get into that here), the claim that the Japanese army were welcomed is utterly risible and deeply offensive to the victims. This is why I think the Yushukan is execrable. Quite unlike Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which are deeply moving and fitting memorials.

(looks like my post is too long... apologies for unanswered points, more to follow)

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I don't know whether your stance of "even if every single comfort woman had been sold to the Japanese military by her own father, that would not absolve Japan of any blame" is your Original Position or your Fallback position

Simply, it is my position. I don't need to fall back on it; the point of it is that I find it irrelevant whether the women were bought or abducted. Buying and selling people is abhorrent behaviour.

To the meat of the issue: If there is indeed a court battle in the Hague, do you agree or disagree that China and Korea are not neutral enough to serve as judge candidates

Do nation states serve as judges at the Hague? I don't think it works that way, but I will admit that I don't know precisely how trials at the Hague do work. If that is how it works, then obviously China and Korea are not neutral enough on the issue.

"I really try to like and respect Japan. But story after story like this makes me want to vomit and fly home."

One statement out of many (this one's right above one of your posts). Frankly, any time when you connect a stance on a piece of history with character, you are unobjective and resorting to ad hominem attacks

So please desist from trying to connect my stance on history to my character by claiming that I'm biased against Japan due to my upbringing. I have been pushed in this post to describe how I learned about Japan's war history. That shouldn't be necessary. As for the post you've quoted there, it is indeed rather hysterical isn't it?! But up and down the board, I see lots of lengthy and well-reasoned posts along with the throw-away comments like this 'vomit' one. If you want to see real foaming at the mouth, please head over to 2chan... Now, I refer back to your previous post in which I said you were being over the top:

The foaming at the mouth responses of the West to every incident like this only suggests to the right-winger, as it does to me, that the West lacks the capacity for rational judgment on this issue

You can't pull out one throw-away 'vomit' comment by a poster on this board (or even dozens of them) and claim it shows that "The West" lacks the capacity for rational judgement. "The West" refers to rather more than the people posting here.

From your net-name, I actually guessed you are Japanese

No, I just lived in Kyoto for a time and frequently walked across Gojo Bridge, and was rather taken with the story of how Yoshitsune and Benkei met there (and all they did together after). In fact I tried to have Benkei as my handle on this site, but it was already taken. Anyway, I haven't made the same assumption about you despite your Japanese handle; but I would be interested to know if you are Japanese or not, should you be willing to share that information.

have just accidentally conceded to me on a basic point - Japan may well be the only country in the world that even has a significant population with a different view of what happened there

Surely you have heard of Holocaust deniers? Not good company to keep. Besides, given that all the other countries involved acknowledge their atrocities I don't think I've conceded anything. It isn't a good thing that some in Japan want to un-acknowledge what happened. As I said above, it isn't about pride or blame, it's about making sure it never happens again. That has to start with acknowledgement.

Such people supposedly exist, but I never met them

Such people certainly exist. I have seen and heard them on numerous occasions - when they marched screaming against foreigners through my neighbourhood in Tokyo last year, when they did the same a few times through my former neighbourhood in Osaka, and of course every time I've been to Yasukuni they've been there (but on somewhat better behaviour). They seem especially conspicuous since they've been emboldened by the Abe government.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Most of these people suing Asahi are neither right wingers nor revisionists A point that the extremly biased AFP doesn't bother to address."

Lol, thanks for the laugh. .

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Not really. They are being critical due to his fabrication.

Can you prove us that this is not your fabrication?

There you go again. Did you even bother to read their papers? I doubt it.

I read enough to know that both, Nishioka and Sakurai, are on an ideological mission and not unbiased scholars. They are more interested in stirring up emotions then in a decent discourse and they are both members of known revisionist groups and Nishioka uses personally insulting terminology that is not acceptable in a scientific context.

But of course, it is up to you to quote whoever you find suitable here, nigelboy.

There is no such thing as an 'international public opinion'. That's my point.

Then this lawsuit must be useless in your opinion, because it addresses the international public opinion, nothing else.

Of course they did.

Then show us evidence. I don't know of any serious IMTFE inquiry into the comfort women issue.

Interviews with POW which included comfort women.

Yes they did exactly 20 interviews, not really a convincing number, but it surely makes sense to take a closer look

In the chapter about the recruiting it says:

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making soldiers happy. The inducement used by those agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land Singapore. On the basis of those false representations many girs enlisted for oversea duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen. The majority of the girls were innocent and uneducated, although a few had been connected with "the oldest profession on earth" before. The contract they singed bound them to Army regulations and to work for the "house master" for a period of from six month to one year depending on the family debt for which they were advanced.

It doesn't talk about how the women were actually coerced to become prostitutes, but we know that this happened at some point. The whole story sounds just like the same sort coercion and human trafficking that we can observe in eastern Europe nowadays where women are "recruited" under false pretences and then enslaved as soon as they arrive in brothels in western Europe, just that here it was commissioned and organized by the military of a big nation.

The ATIS report further tells us...

... that the Japanese military was directly involved in all aspects of the comfort stations and without doubt the commissioner and principal of the whole sex business.

... that the comfort women needed permission from the commander to leave the brothels and were rarely granted such.

... that they had a whooping one day off duty a month.

... that at least some had to be on duty 24 hours a day.

There is absolutely no reference to if and how the wellbeing of the comfort women was checked, but there are plenty references to strict medical checkups concerning venereal diseases, something I would believe to be a rather degrading procedure for the women if compulsory and done frequently.

What we can read out of the document is that the Japanese military created, managed, oversaw and regulated the brothels in an almost absurd bureaucratic manner, but that there was absolutely no provisions in place to check whether the women were happy, really treated well and there on their own free will.

The "house masters", speak pimps, who where commissioned by the Japanese military, had almost absolute power over the comfort women.

There was no mentioning of any kind of ombudsman or independent institution where an abused women might have gone. So the women were complete at the mercy of traitors that often had tricked them into the situation.

So all together a careful reading of the ATIS report actually backs up the story that Korean women were tricked in and then enslaved mainly through financial dependency in a foreign country without any structure to enforce their rights and with direct involvement of the Japanese military.

Btw. at some point the report also mentions that Japanese Young officers and soldiers raided Chinese homes in Malaysia to see if they could get young Chinese girls. A clear reference to what many testimonies from various Asian nations have depicted as well.

But we should not forget that the ATIS reports scope was completely unrelated to uncovering abuse of women and there were no questions that could have uncovered such and no special inquiries in that direction.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

They don't use the term sex slaves because not all of them were paid. Many were prostitutes making a good buck.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

bam_booFeb. 26, 2015 - 11:34AM JST

So all together a careful reading of the ATIS report actually backs up the story that Korean women were tricked in and then enslaved mainly through financial dependency

Glad you have read through all the material. Koreans were tricked, but not drafted or abducted as many activists say. The next question is by whom.

There is absolutely no reference to if and how the wellbeing of the comfort women

http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf

(page 135)LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;

They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles.

bam_booFeb. 26, 2015 - 11:34AM JST

Btw. at some point the report also mentions that Japanese Young officers and soldiers raided Chinese homes in Malaysia to see if they could get young Chinese girls.

Those are rape cases, which should be distinguished from ianfu cases.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Yoshitsune

What I'm arguing is that this lawsuit against the Asahi is just that and that alone; a lawsuit against the Asahi.

Fair enough, but you've pointed out the right wingers seem to think it would have a wider effect, and I point out from what I can see the other side in their actions seem to think so too. And I really don't see it as having "only" the tactical effect you suggest either, and if both sides agree it has a wider effect, then it will have one. Anyway, we shall see, and I'll be disappointed if this is interrupted due to political reasons.

You didn't say "your side", you said "you guys". I'm still not sure who "you guys" is.

I checked - actually I used both terms. But there's a substantive difference?

I have seen that your opinions are not uniformly in line with the right-wing position on all issues

Overall, I think you've guessed correctly what I perceive my position to be - an agnostic. IMO, if I still look like a nationalist, it is because the decks of the world are so tilted that any position other than a full blown bashing is considered inappropriate. It also didn't help I used my Real Name here instead of my aliases, which might fool some into believing I'm a Russian :-)

If there was any mention of Japan and the Asia-Pacific war, it was in passing

"In passing" and "zero" are potentially very different. If there is one thing Chinese, Koreans and uyoku can agree on, it is in how subtle changes in how lessons are presented to young minds can make a significant difference in the outlook of people - that's the basis for the whole "Battle for the Japanese History Text".

Speaking personally, I went to a Canadian International School and also read some local (Hong Kong) textbooks. My total time in Japan is less than 1 year. Obviously, the main drive of the Canadian course was on Europe, it may be similar to yours in that respect. The HK book didn't lay it on very thickly either. But it was there. It was also in the school encylopedias I tend to monopolize.

You'll have to explain that.

I'll give you an example. You said you made a trip to Unit 731. Now I don't want to say Unit 731 didn't exist or anything of that sort. But consider what happened. To choose to go there, you have to have found out it exists, chosen to believe in it ... by the time you went there, you basically had already decided it had existed and are just in a Verification or even Paying Homage mode.

original locomotive engines from the Death Railway

In fact, that locomotive sounds pretty neutral - if they didn't show the abuses and the privations (we are talking a scenario where 8% of the Japanese died so let's be realistic about the rest of them...), they didn't try to glorify it either, though it seems the opinion that it was a great feat of engineering is also in the West.

the claim that the Japanese army were welcomed is utterly risible and deeply offensive to the victims

I'm more interested in whether at least some people were indeed welcoming. As a proposition, I don't think it is so far fetched to suggest at least some of the population were actually welcoming. China was not exactly heaven throughout the 1900-1937 period and if someone proposes that Chinese might prefer a "2nd class" existence under the Japanese versus continuing in the Civil War turmoil, it's at least plausible. It is also internally consistent with a common uyoku claim that a lot of the deaths are actually caused by the less than disciplined Chinese soldier.

Though the Germans were hardly Human Rights Central, it is generally accepted that at least some Ukrainians were quite welcoming of them in Operation Barbarossa. This is not rejected on the basis that it is "risible and deeply offensive to the Russian (and even Ukrainian) people". This situation is generally blamed on Stalin, which is justified considering the Holodomor. But nobody seems willing to even consider a variant where the Chinese people may be just a weeny bit sick of Chiang Kai Shek.

Do nation states serve as judges at the Hague?

No, but their citizens, steeped in their education and their media, do.

I see lots of lengthy and well-reasoned posts

I do see some more-reasoned posts, but even the best of them inevitably start from the position that not agreeing with the Allied historiography is somehow morally wrong. Here's the way I see it, this is a historical dispute. For an example from your post (which as you know I consider one of the more reasoned ones):

"It's that the Japanese right keep bring it up..."

The way I decode this, it shows at the very least a gross lack of empathy. While I can see if we start with the position that comfort women are sex slaves, the smart and correct thing to do is to "settle fast", it seems to lack even the consideration of the possibility that our "uyoku" may genuinely feel that the evidence stack does not point to that conclusion. In which case the correct long term move is to challenge that misunderstanding. There's always a sense that your side thinks "The uyoku know they have no hand and are playing opposition out of misguided Japanese pride" rather than even thinking "The uyoku think they have a hand, and that they can win if only they can find the right presentation."

In a sense, an Uyoku, whatever his diction, has more faith in the ultimate rationality of man than your side. They are actually being optimistic about most of you by thinking that you guys might ... just ... be .... willing to abandon a position (which you are defending with some tenacity) if presented with the right evidence and logic. Your side does not seem to reciprocate that benefit of the doubt.

"The West" refers to rather more than the people posting here.

Is that a quiet admission that the people posting here may be causing some legitimate concern? :-)

Surely you have heard of Holocaust deniers?

I've heard of them. I definitely see no evidence at this point to suggest I should join them. However, I will not judge a person based solely on the fact he happens to be a Holocaust denier, much less without checking his deck.

As I said above, it isn't about pride or blame, it's about making sure it never happens again. That has to start with acknowledgement.

IMO, its a mistake to link acknowledgement with making sure it never happens again, thus leading to accusations against morality which I feel are unjustified. I think the two are separate. That you are completely convinced that Nanking never happened, for example, has no relation with whether you think it'll be reprehensible IF it did happen. For example, Americans definitely acknowledge Hiroshima happened, but many would think it is a good thing. I find such thoughts more worrying.

It isn't a good thing that some in Japan want to un-acknowledge what happened.

In Nanking terms, what happened is like Japan agreeing "OK, thousands of civilians died in Nanking." The Chinese wait a few years and then say "You've accepted that 500,000 Chinese were brutally raped, murdered then eaten by Japanese, under direct orders from Prince Asaka himself. On that basis we demand compensation (though we've given that up in the Treaties)." The Japanese, forced to clarify, say, "No, we meant to say ..."

"You backtrackers! How dare you un-acknowledge thngs!"

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Glad you have read through all the material. Koreans were tricked, but not drafted or abducted as many activists say.

To be precise they were tricked and then coerced, because we know that you can not just be tricked into prostitution. We can guess that there was violence and traumatization involved at some point and that's also what the hundreds of comfort women testimonies tell us.

It says in the report that the Burma case was an exception. Though I do believe that there was quite some variety in the comfort station system, much as there was in the Japanese military.

There were leaders of integrity and there were the brutes, but I have no doubt that the military command was lead by the brutes type as they were well aware of the dimension of the horror they commanded.

The next question is by whom.

First we can easily answer the question for who: for the Japanese military.

Second we can ask, is there any chance that the Japanese military did commission and organize all this without noticing that coercion, violence and enslavement took place on a regular basis?

Even in the ATIS report, when nobody was actually looking for such evidence, do we find numerous references to direct involvement of the Japanese military.

It can be disputed to what extent the Japanese military was directly involved in abducting and coercing women. Obviously this was not official military policy, but still there are many evidences and testimonies that suggest this could have been standard practice, at least for certain battalions and regions. If those cases happen frequently then it becomes the responsibility of the military commend even it is not official policy.

The atrocities in China, mass killing of civilians, os POWs, mass rapes, etc. were not official military policy, but happened as standard practice of the Japanese military campaign.

Those are rape cases, which should be distinguished from ianfu cases.

The fact is that the Japanese military did discriminate certain ethnicities and nationalities, like the Chinese for example, and displayed incomprehensible brutality towards those on a regular basis. There are many accounts of those rape cases and apparently did they often go hand in hand with recruiting women for the comfort stations.

....................................

I believe those 2100 plus plaintiffs are shooting themselves in the foot with this trial, because while they might be able to correct some exaggerated notions about the comfort women system, they will by no means be able to exonerate the Japanese military on the main accounts.

There more people look into this, the more the horror, that obviously many of those comfort women experienced, will come alive again and in the end it will not be a question whether the Japanese military was involved or not (it is too obvious that it was) but just to what extent.

I believe the steps taken by Murayama is the only credible path to deal with this topic on the Japanese side if Japan wants to get to terms with its history at some point and improve its reputation on an international stage.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

bam_booFeb. 26, 2015 - 08:40PM JST

We can guess that there was violence and traumatization involved at some point and that's also what the hundreds of comfort women testimonies tell us.

Have you read the testimonies here? http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/2100-people-sue-asahi-shimbun-over-comfort-women-stories#comment_1932660

These are by the same person. The first version is traumatizing whereas the second is not. Which version is true, if we are to rely on the testimonies?

Actually, Professor Pak Yu Ha who is a Korean and studying comfort women issues wrote in her work that testimonies of Korean former ianfu are "coached" by activist group. That is why their testimonies change everytime they testify.

they might be able to correct some exaggerated notions about the comfort women system, they will by no means be able to exonerate the Japanese military on the main accounts.

Right. Their objective is to keep the truth in history, not to exonerate Japanese military.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Kazuaki

from what I can see the other side in their actions seem to think so too... if both sides agree it has a wider effect, then it will have one. Anyway, we shall see

And it seems clear to me that only one side thinks that. But yes, we shall see.

You didn't say "your side", you said "you guys". I'm still not sure who "you guys" is

I checked - actually I used both terms. But there's a substantive difference?

"Your side" suggests "your side in the debate". "You guys" suggests that you're attributing my position in the debate to my membership of a particular group.

it is because the decks of the world are so tilted that any position other than a full blown bashing is considered inappropriate

Not remotely convinced. Every country has nationalists, and they all share the sort of persecution complex you have just described. The decks of the world do not tilt against a single country.

If there was any mention of Japan and the Asia-Pacific war, it was in passing

"In passing" and "zero" are potentially very different

Potentially, yes they are. As far as I recall, there was zero mention of Japan in my textbooks; but I must of course admit that potentially my textbooks did mention it in passing and I don't remember. It is possible. Hence, "If there was any mention of Japan and the Asia-Pacific war, it was in passing". And if there was, it left no mark. Fact is that at school I actually learned quite little even about the European theatre of WWII - my textbooks focused far more on WWI. So please stop insisting that I learned about Japan from school textbooks when I didn't!

You said you made a trip to Unit 731. Now I don't want to say Unit 731 didn't exist or anything of that sort. But consider what happened. To choose to go there, you have to have found out it exists, chosen to believe in it ... by the time you went there, you basically had already decided it had existed and are just in a Verification or even Paying Homage mode

Assumptions. You can't know any of that at all. I knew it existed in the same way I know that Brazil exists despite having never been there. I went to go to Harbin to see Harbin, on a wider trip around China. While there, I visited Unit 731 because it's there. Nothing to do with paying homage. And what do you suggest? That I shouldn't have gone there while in Harbin, because doing so proves that I have an ingrained bias against Japan? That's an absurd argument. I'm not going to choose ignorance. It's there, it's horrific (really, truly, horrific), and people should visit it to learn about what happened and to understand the horrors that are possible when groups of humans feel superior to other groups based on their race.

In fact, that locomotive sounds pretty neutral... they didn't try to glorify it either, though it seems the opinion that it was a great feat of engineering is also in the West

Therein lies the problem. The A-bomb was also a great feat of science. That doesn't mean we can talk about it as such while ignoring the horror it inflicted. When the Enola Gay was displayed the Japanese casualties that resulted from the atomic bombing were explained in detail (this caused some protest from American nationalists), which is the correct fashion to display a historically significant machine which was responsible for many deaths. The Yushukan doesn't do that because it has an agenda.

the claim that the Japanese army were welcomed is utterly risible and deeply offensive to the victims

I'm more interested in whether at least some people were indeed welcoming. As a proposition, I don't think it is so far fetched to suggest at least some of the population were actually welcoming. China was not exactly heaven throughout the 1900-1937 period and if someone proposes that Chinese might prefer a "2nd class" existence under the Japanese versus continuing in the Civil War turmoil, it's at least plausible

The Yushukan doesn't make an argument that some Chinese might plausibly have welcomed the Japanese. It doesn't attempt any sort of discussion around that undeniably plausible suggestion. It flatly states that the Japanese were welcomed as liberators, and skips over the tens or hundreds of thousands killed in Nanjing alone. Again, the Yushukan is not an attempt to educate future generations about the dangers of what can happen. It has an agenda to play down Japan's atrocities and play up her victimhood.

it shows at the very least a gross lack of empathy

You accuse me of a gross lack of empathy for those who deny atrocities? My empathy is for the victims (all of them, obviously including Japanese). Where is your empathy for the victims? You are more interested in whether a few Chinese welcomed the Japanese than the appalling things that were inflicted upon the victims there; are you sure you're not a right winger?! I have empathy for uyoku alright, I feel extremely sorry for them living in their hate and their fear. But I also think they are dangerous, that they would be the first to return the sorts of behaviours that we as a species, as far as we possibly can, must ensure are a thing of the past (I'm not just talking about Japanese right wingers - America's KKK and the UK's EDL, for example, are in the same league)

However, I will not judge a person based solely on the fact he happens to be a Holocaust denier

I mentioned Holocaust deniers in response to your claim that Japan is the only place with differing views on history. I wasn't making character judgements. There are many cases of differing views. You mentioned Ukraine and Russia above, for one example.

That you are completely convinced that Nanking never happened, for example, has no relation with whether you think it'll be reprehensible IF it did happen

No, not in a logical sense. But those who completely deny that it ever happened tend to be those who still call for similar behaviour i.e. the uyoku groups who stand on street corners with megaphones and call for the murder of Koreans.

For example, Americans definitely acknowledge Hiroshima happened, but many would think it is a good thing

That is true, many do think it was a good thing, or a necessary thing. But it would be far more worrying if they started to actually deny that they'd done it, or to say that the number killed was just a few thousand, etc

Anyway, we are completely off topic here. I'm sure we will have further opportunity to discuss Nanjing and Hiroshima over the coming months; there are sure to be many more articles in this 70th anniversary year. Back to the original topic; I still insist that the court claim has no bearing on the comfort women issue as a whole. As you say, time will tell.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Have you read the testimonies here?... These are by the same person. The first version is traumatizing whereas the second is not. Which version is true, if we are to rely on the testimonies?

CH3CHO, you refer to one inconsistency and you surely will find some more, but 50 or 60 years after something happened testimonies usually are not consistent, that's how human memory works. Anyway they are all very consistent in that they tell very similar stories of coercion, abuse, violence and enslavement.

Surely the social environmental will also have an impact on the testimonies too,

but the main question is, do you believe that the women were coerced and abused or not?

Do you believe, CH3CHO, that the orally transmitted and basically very similar and consistent content of testimonies of several hundreds of victims are all fabricated? Lies? False memories that are by chance or by some mysterious conspiracy against Japan all telling a similar story?

I would be curious to hear your take on how that could happen...

I'm with the women here. While there surely were many cases in which Korean nationalist propaganda misused them, I do believe that the core of the experience they all talk about, including the involvement of the Japanese side, is true.

They were without doubt victims of a Japanese military, that didn't care about individual human suffering at all.

Their objective is to keep the truth in history,

No their clearly stated objective is to regain their personal reputation on an international stage by means of Ads payed for by Asahi.

And they also want compensation money for the "damage" that has been inflicted on them personally.

If truth were their main concern they would be satisfied with the apology by Asahi, as any sensible human would.

Their cause is not a just cause but one of retaliation.

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Can you prove us that this is not your fabrication?

Yeah. "Teishintai" is not "comfort women".

I read enough to know that both, Nishioka and Sakurai, are on an ideological mission and not unbiased scholars. They are more interested in stirring up emotions then in a decent discourse and they are both members of known revisionist groups and Nishioka uses personally insulting terminology that is not acceptable in a scientific context.

I don't think you read the column written by Nishioka nor Sakurai in regards to their respective view of Uemura's articles.

Then show us evidence. I don't know of any serious IMTFE inquiry into the comfort women issue.

Because they found no evidence of wrong doing. Why are you repeating the same fallacy over and over again?

It doesn't talk about how the women were actually coerced to become prostitutes, but we know that this happened at some point. The whole story sounds just like the same sort coercion and human trafficking that we can observe in eastern Europe nowadays where women are "recruited" under false pretences and then enslaved as soon as they arrive in brothels in western Europe, just that here it was commissioned and organized by the military of a big nation.

Thank you. According to your logic then, state of "eastern Europe" then is legally responsible for conducting the recruitment and the state of "western Europe" is by default responsible as well since these states allow prostitution and regulates them.

There is absolutely no reference to if and how the wellbeing of the comfort women was checked, but there are plenty references to strict medical checkups concerning venereal diseases, something I would believe to be a rather degrading procedure for the women if compulsory and done frequently.

Of course there is. There is a reference to regulate that the women can refuse service. They also had the freedom to socialize with the military outside like pick nics and to go shopping.

What we can read out of the document is that the Japanese military created, managed, oversaw and regulated the brothels in an almost absurd bureaucratic manner, but that there was absolutely no provisions in place to check whether the women were happy, really treated well and there on their own free will.

Do you think the soldiers and doctors who were assigned there were happy, treated well (enough supplies), and there on their own free will? Is anyone claiming here that these women's living standards increased while they were stationed there?

The "house masters", speak pimps, who where commissioned by the Japanese military, had almost absolute power over the comfort women.

Of course they did. They are the ones that kept the earnings and gave certain percentage to the women. As the recent diary of the Korean operator indicates, he even arranged for wiring their money back to their relatives. He even goes on to say that on certain days "women were not happy" since the customers (soldiers) weren't showing up.

There was no mentioning of any kind of ombudsman or independent institution where an abused women might have gone. So the women were complete at the mercy of traitors that often had tricked them into the situation

This is war time. I don't think the soldiers nor the medical doctors who were stationed there had that luxury as well.

So all together a careful reading of the ATIS report actually backs up the story that Korean women were tricked in and then enslaved mainly through financial dependency in a foreign country without any structure to enforce their rights and with direct involvement of the Japanese military.

No. The central issue of this whole debate and the controversy is "who did the coercing".

Remember the narrative?

".. The Japanese army forcibly recruited, conscripted, and dragooned as many as two hundred thousand women age fourteen to twenty to serve in military brothels, called "comfort houses" or "consolation centers".

In other words, it appears you agree that this narrative (which is the one from the McGraw Hill textbook) is completely off the mark.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

According to your logic then, state of "eastern Europe" then is legally responsible for conducting the recruitment and the state of "western Europe" is by default responsible as well since these states allow prostitution and regulates them.

You logic is twisted, nigelboy. Neither eastern Europe nor western Europe States commission and manage prostitution like the Japanese military did. They are not involved parties and they do not commit crimes.

To the contrary they do everything in their power to stop such crimes.

Because they found no evidence of wrong doing.

You missed my argument. I said that they didn't enquire the topic, so can they find evidence? I asked you to show us evidence that the IMTFE prosecutors did specifically inquire the comfort women issue and you couldn't provide such evidence.

Of course there is. There is a reference to regulate that the women can refuse service.

This is not a regulation to check their wellbeing.

Besides is there any reference to what happened if they refused service? No? Because they couldn't in the enslaved circumstances they were in.

There were no regulations to check the wellbeing of the women, or show us one.

Do you think the soldiers and doctors who were assigned there were happy, treated well (enough supplies), and there on their own free will?

No I don't believe so. As I stated before the Japanese military didn't care about humans...

and so what does this have to do with the violence against women?

As the recent diary of the Korean operator indicates, he even arranged for wiring their money back to their relatives.

Oh that sound generous, how say that.

He even goes on to say that on certain days "women were not happy" since the customers (soldiers) weren't showing up.

If a pimp tells you his prostitutes are happy and enthusiastic about their work you take this for granted? Sorry, but I don't believe you are aware of what we are talking about here.

No. The central issue of this whole debate and the controversy is "who did the coercing".

No, you are wrong, the central question is who was responsible for the crimes.

".. The Japanese army forcibly recruited, conscripted, and dragooned as many as two hundred thousand women age fourteen to twenty to serve in military brothels, called "comfort houses" or "consolation centers"

I would put it like this:

"The Japanese army was responsible for the forcible recruiting, conscription, and dragooning of as many as two hundred thousand women age fourteen to twenty to serve in military brothels, called "comfort houses" or "consolation centers"

1 ( +4 / -3 )

You logic is twisted, nigelboy. Neither eastern Europe nor western Europe States commission and manage prostitution like the Japanese military did. They are not involved parties and they do not commit crimes.

Not really. If the prostitution is legal in those states, the government of the said states regulates them much in the same fashion as Japanese military did by imposing regulations. Your double standards are simply appalling.

To the contrary they do everything in their power to stop such crimes.

Bias and subjective. If you want to argue that the Japanese authorities did not do enough to prevent such wrongful actions by INDIVIDUALS, then I agree with you. But that alone, as I stated on numerous occasions, does not mean the state should take legal responsibility.

You missed my argument. I said that they didn't enquire the topic, so can they find evidence? I asked you to show us evidence that the IMTFE prosecutors did specifically inquire the comfort women issue and you couldn't provide such evidence.

Investigations were done by the Allied units. It's the prosecutors job to prosecute based on the discovery of the such wrongdoings and the evidence found those investigations.

Besides is there any reference to what happened if they refused service? No? Because they couldn't in the enslaved circumstances they were in.

Speculation once again. Why on earth would you set up regulations if people are constantly not obeying them?

No I don't believe so. As I stated before the Japanese military didn't care about humans...

There you go again with "Japan bad, therefore I don't believe you" type argument.

and so what does this have to do with the violence against women?

Nothing. You're the one that automatically assumes that there were violence against these women in masses. Again, your lame attempt to shift the burden of proof.

Oh that sound generous, how say that.

The entry also includes operators depositing and wiring money on behalf of the these women, arranging for their return back home (travel permit, purchase of ship vessel tickets), had movie nights with them, sent telegrams back home on behalf of them, and even received a post card from one of them notifying that she had come home safely.

If a pimp tells you his prostitutes are happy and enthusiastic about their work you take this for granted? Sorry, but I don't believe you are aware of what we are talking about here.

Neither are you for you are simply taking the 50+ years after the alleged incident testimonies at face value.

No, you are wrong, the central question is who was responsible for the crimes.

The individuals that did those 'alleged' crimes. Thank you.

I would put it like this:

Magic leap there. As Prof. Pak Yun Ha states

"...Any coercion, violence or confinement was exercised by Korean brokers against the orders. So if one wants to use the term "sex slaves" to describe former Korean comfort women, they were sex slaves of Korean brokers. They were not sex slaves of Japanese military. Japanese military personnels visited comfort stations only as customers. A diary written by a Korean comfort station manager was discovered in 2012, and it makes it clear that Korean brokers not only recruited Korean comfort women but also owned and operated comfort stations employing Korean women. The common perception in the West that Japanese military operated comfort stations is incorrect..."

Sort of like the "Europe" example you gave or any other prosititution business which has some of these brokers/operators.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

nigelboy Feb. 27, 2015 - 03:47AM JST Not really. If the prostitution is legal in those states, the government of the said states regulates them much in the same fashion as Japanese military did by imposing regulations. Your double standards are simply appalling.

Same fashion as Japanese military? The survival rate of these comfort women (mostly Koreans) was calculated at a dismal 30%. Majority of these Korean women didn't live long.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Same fashion as Japanese military? The survival rate of these comfort women (mostly Koreans) was calculated at a dismal 30%. Majority of these Korean women didn't live long.

Let me guess. This 'figure' was based on the following.

"....These numbers are based on "a 1975 [sic.] statement by Seijuro Arafune, Liberal Democratic Party member of the Japanese Diet, that 145,000 Korean sex slaves died during the Second World War...."

'...During the war, Koreans were told that they were now Japanese. This was to persuade them to place money in deposit accounts. They deposited 110 billion yen, and the money was all lost at the end of the war. Now they are demanding that the money be returned. They say, "Give us back Korea's wealth, the wealth Japanese bureaucrats held on to during 36 years of rule." They say Koreans were drafted by Japan during the war and taken from Korea to work, and those who worked well were used as soldiers, and 576,000 of those soldiers are now dead. There are claims that 142,000 Korean comfort women are dead, killed by the Japanese military's sexual abuses. Now they are demanding pensions for a total of 900,000 victims. At first, 5 billion dollars was claimed as compensation, but the sum has been whittled down and now they say they are willing to settle for 300 million dollars..."

"During the Korea-Japan Treaty negotiations (up to 1965), representatives of the Republic of Korea stated that 1,032,684 Koreans had been recruited to serve as laborers, soldiers, and personnel attached to the Japanese military, and that 102,603 of these had been injured or had died. At the time, no mention was made of comfort women."

"...None of Arafune figures have any basis whatsoever. It is most unfortunate that Special Rapporteur McDougal, who held a responsible position working for a United Nations organization, relied on such an untrustworthy source..."

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@Yoshitsune

"Your side" suggests "your side in the debate". "You guys" suggests that you're attributing my position in the debate to my membership of a particular group.

I must admit this fine distinction is entirely lost on me.

The decks of the world do not tilt against a single country.

I must sadly disagree. As you may know, just a few days ago on this board I got into a scrape about a controversial article written by a Sono. I don't mind after a fair reading a Western reader gets a bad impression - it is a very controversial proposal. I'm annoyed that Western media chose to use a loaded word and omission to deprive the Western reader that chance.

That I shouldn't have gone there while in Harbin, because doing so proves that I have an ingrained bias against Japan?

My point in that general area is that you should be more careful when claiming you were not biased. People have a poor ability to judge whether they are flat. Very subtle influences can change what you consider flat (especially if they are inserted in your youth where you have few references), and they are more visible to a third party.

Of course, I warn myself of this too, so I'll share my Big Turn Point. No, it wasn't when I first found out in passing that comfort women testimonies have inconsistencies, and this is even quietly admitted in Western sources. As you say, a few liars don't necessarily disprove the whole - in fact, if there are as many victims as in common historiography, not having a few liars would be unusual. Then, one day, breezing through the Ask a Korean blog, I was again annoyed at what I saw was excess venom, but my historiography (impressed via a touch of education reinforced by lots of media) hadn't changed yet ... until I saw the blogger's choice of Comfort Woman testimony. I guess I was supposed to be struck by the tragedy, but I was more impressed by how Detail-Empty it was. There is no point in trying to check if she might have said something else elsewhere b/c there were simply no details to contradict.

I was stunned that the blogger actually thought it would be convincing. Personally, if I'm arguing for the comfort women, I will bury that testimony under 3 meters of mud, much less hang it on my blog - it is unpresentable, unless it is actually the best one I have. In which case I will seriously consider changing my position, or at least not advocating it in such absolute terms. Let's just say I got more cynical after that.

The Yushukan doesn't do that because it has an agenda.

Imagine you knowing absolutely nothing before entering the Yushukan. You will see the locomotive, maybe learn it was used in Burma. That's it. You are still on a very even keel when you go home. If your interest is whetted, you might Google terms like "Burma Japan Train" and maybe you will bump into a page describing all the sacrifices. If you aren't that curious, you are still a perfectly blank slate waiting for someone else to either point out what a feat of engineering or what immoral sacrifices were made.

Now for the Americans. Sure, they may show you the victims of the Enola Gay. But they will also point out all the justifications and perhaps the Manhattan Project. When you leave, most will not be curious because they have closed the loop, and in a direction that suggests the atom bomb was a necessary sacrifice and a victory of American science. Imprint Complete.

Who has more agenda?

It flatly states that the Japanese were welcomed as liberators, and skips over the tens or hundreds of thousands killed in Nanjing alone.

If they feel that this is a truth, I'll argue they are free to present that side. My point is that there seems no reason for your very strong reaction - Yushukan will not be the first nor the last to not shine the flashlight evenly around the room.

You are more interested in whether a few Chinese welcomed the Japanese

Interesting, you immediately concluded that they must be "few". I said some, but "some (1-50%) " and "few (3-4)" are different words. Back on topic, I've already been regaled with the victims' version. At this point I admit I'm more interested in other versions.

?! I have empathy for uyoku alright, I feel extremely sorry for them living in their hate and their fear.

The possibility that they may genuinely feel that they have a valid argument does not even enter your consideration? That if this is so, the world's attitude literally sealing their voices in does not invoke your sympathy? You cannot make the connection that this in itself causes hate and fear?

I wasn't making character judgements

In your last post, you said: "Not good company to keep."

No, not in a logical sense.

As you agree, it is not logical. So why do you assume that all those that are standing there calling for the Koreans' heads (wrong as that is) necessarily think Nanking & comfort women didn't happen. And if a switch could somehow be turned in their mind so they agree it happened, why do you think that will stop them from shouting for Koreans' heads?

Here's a darker thought. If there is any demi-logical connection b/w historical attitude and joining those rallies, it would be that those who agree that Japan committed those acts may have the same resentment as the Uyoku, but they repress it for the sole reason of guilt. They feel that present Japanese should suffer for past sins, so they grin and bear it. While perhaps anything that will keep them from joining the rally sounds good in the short run, you tell me whether that's such a good idea over the long run.

actually deny that they'd done it, or to say that the number killed was just a few thousand

Quite frankly, I cannot understand that attitude. Denial or saying the number killed was a few thousand is a debate on facts, not morality. It may even be a logical conclusion based on the data they have in their stack. I'll agree that there is a problem if you know for a fact their stack actually says different and they insist on deviating from their own stack, but we don't know that, and it is presumptious to insist no one can have a substantially different data stack from yours. If he agrees that any bomb (even if it is entirely hypothetical to him) that can kill tens of thousands in a blink of an eye + irradiate the surroundings for near eternity is a bad idea, I find that more valuable.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"Your side" suggests "your side in the debate". "You guys" suggests that you're attributing my position in the debate to my membership of a particular group

I must admit this fine distinction is entirely lost on me

You're arguing about bias so it's a distinction you need to get down

The decks of the world do not tilt against a single country

I must sadly disagree. As you may know, just a few days ago on this board I got into a scrape about a controversial article written by a Sono

That proves nothing at all. All over the world there are nationalists who believe that the world is stacked against their country. So it's stacked against everyone? To claim it's stacked solely against Japan is absurdly paranoid and defensive

you should be more careful when claiming you were not biased. People have a poor ability to judge whether they are flat

Undeniably true and it goes for everyone. However I believe my original statement was that I was raised in Europe without any bias against Japan, and it isn't hard for me to judge that; as I have explained, annoyingly repetitively, I learned nothing about Japan before adulthood. Now, of course, I cannot accurately judge that I am not biased right now, as no-one can. But I can say that I am not a Japan-basher (a position of extreme bias), that I'm not biased in any conscious way, and that I am careful to question myself as you say you are. On the subject of which, your Big Turn moment is truly baffling. The Ask A Korean blog made you a sceptic? Ask A Korean? Seriously?

Imagine you knowing absolutely nothing before entering the Yushukan. You will see the locomotive, maybe learn it was used in Burma. That's it

That's the problem

If your interest is whetted, you might Google terms like "Burma Japan Train" and maybe you will bump into a page describing all the sacrifices

And then you would tell me I'm biased because those pages were biased

If you aren't that curious, you are still a perfectly blank slate waiting for someone else to either point out what a feat of engineering or what immoral sacrifices were made

And you would tell me I was biased by the bias of the person who wrote on my blank slate. Ignorance is not a state to aspire to, and your circular arguments here don't prove that I'm biased or that the Yushukan doesn't have an agenda.

(btw 'sacrifice' is a wholly inappropriate word for murdered POWs and forced labourers, unless we are talking about sacrifices to a deity - which we are not!)

Who has more agenda?

A museum which presents only one side of a debate clearly has more agenda than one which presents both sides (even if flawed in the way it presents one side), so my answer is that the Yushukan has more agenda

I said some, but "some (1-50%) " and "few (3-4)" are different words

Honestly, some, few, whatever. Makes no difference; some or a few is not an important distinction in the sentences in question. And while there is no definition of "some" as 1-50%, as you claim there, it definitely isn't 50%. Also given the large number of people killed in Nanjing it is extremely improbable that more than a very few welcomed the Japanese.

The possibility that they may genuinely feel that they have a valid argument does not even enter your consideration?

It's impossible for you to know what enters my consideration!

How do you conclude that I don't consider it possible they feel they have a valid argument? On the contrary, I don't doubt it for a second. They clearly do feel they have a valid argument. So either show me where I've said I think they don't feel that, or withdraw your charge of a gross lack of empathy. And here I'll charge you with not debating what I have said, but with debating what you assume I think because you "are unable to distinguish me from the swarm" that you have ascribed me to. I'm not here to be an imaginary figurehead of the group you want to argue against, or to be insulted because of false assumptions (and yes I am insulted by an accusation of lacking empathy, just as much as I would be by an accusation of lacking intelligence)

As you agree, it is not logical

No, you've misunderstood. I meant that your statement:

That you are completely convinced that Nanking never happened, for example, has no relation with whether you think it'll be reprehensible IF it did happen

Is logically sound. Also:

if a switch could somehow be turned in their mind so they agree it happened, why do you think that will stop them from shouting for Koreans' heads?

I don't think that and didn't say I did; it is also logically sound to say that the action described is not dependent on the belief described. But I'm not arguing that it is. I'm saying that those in Japan who call for the murder of Koreans are in fact largely the same people as those who deny Nanjing happened (in some cases, they don't deny Nanjing but actually suggest it as a good model to follow in Japan's Korean areas). These are the black van groups you say you've heard of, but who I have actually heard, and the more presentable interest groups and politicians who embolden them

If there is any demi-logical connection b/w historical attitude and joining those rallies, it would be that those who agree that Japan committed those acts may have the same resentment as the Uyoku, but they repress it for the sole reason of guilt

May have? This is a complete non-argument. The vast majority of Japanese do not attend those rallies, not because they feel guilty but because they think the people holding those rallies are racist, foaming at the mouth idiots.

Denial or saying the number killed was a few thousand is a debate on facts, not morality

Indeed, the morality question lies in dropping the bomb in the first place (or in massacring a city's population in other ways e.g. Nanjing, Dresden etc). But to then deny the fact of it or to play down the numbers is also immoral, highly offensive to the victims, and makes it all more likely to happen again as old wounds remain unhealed. And before you lump me in with the swarm and make any further arguments about the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki based on your assumptions of what I think, let me clearly state now that I do not think that the bombings were justified

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To claim it's stacked solely against Japan is absurdly paranoid and defensive

I cannot claim to know what nationalists think. I just say I do notice a anti-Japan bias, and even produce an example in close proximity explaining where I find it lacking.

The Ask A Korean blog made you a sceptic? Ask A Korean? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. You may not find this understandable, but that's the one. Sorting through expressable reasons, part of it is because it's not a specialist site on comfort women. It was when I realize what kind of testimony a "layman" would find convincing enough to put on his blog. And it is not, by a mile, without cross-referencing. IMO you can only drink that down as convincing if you already have been seriously indoctrinated.

On a broader note, I actually started noticing the insidious effects of subtle indoctrination on rational thinking while studying up on CFE (which is much closer to my main interest BTW, comfort women are way way on the limb at best). Reading through the essays as someone without a bone in the fight, I found the Soviets (who are supposed to be the indoctrinated ones) fair minded and convincing, while the Western essays are much less rational and quite shameless ( they are still OK when discussing the ground forces equation, but when it comes to the naval and air forces...) Since these are educated men and yet they produce this as their work, I can only conclude that a lifetime of indoctrination made such arguments easier to swallow.

As a whole, I've become more sensitive to indoctrinated biases after that.

Ignorance is not a state to aspire to, and your circular arguments here don't prove that I'm biased or that the Yushukan doesn't have an agenda.

Aren't our directions a bit switched? You accused Yushukan of having an agenda (and since most sources have some agenda, I guess what you really want to argue is Yushukan is much less even than the norm). So far, you hadn't done that. I'll argue the locomotive has less "agenda" than a stereotypical American atom bomb portrayal. I can concede that the Nanking portrayal has more, but I still say that it is hardly unknown to shy away from the death parts.

They clearly do feel they have a valid argument.

Yet, you have also said "I feel extremely sorry for them living in their hate and their fear." thus abscribing their motives to "hate and fear", rather than that they feel they have a valid argument.

in some cases, they don't deny Nanjing but actually suggest it as a good model to follow in Japan's Korean areas

That I'll have to see. Nevertheless, do try not to overly associate the two beliefs, since as you say there is no logical link.

The vast majority of Japanese do not attend those rallies, not because they feel guilty but because they think the people holding those rallies are racist, foaming at the mouth idiots.

Probably, but that was not my point. As you agree, racism and historical perception are not directly linked. If we assume a Bell-curve type distribution of 20% left-wing, 60% neutral and 20% right wing, and that racists sufficiently so to consider taking their words to the street as 1% of the population, these racists should be scattered more or less evenly among the wings, and we should expect our band in the street to actually be composed of 0.8% (versus the whole population) left wingers and neutrals and 0.2% rignt wings - thus people with the "correct" historical perception should be the majority. However, you say according to your observation, the group is mostly or completely right-wingers. If I accept that as fact (versus a lot of left and neutrals just quietly joining that crowd without you noticing), some explanation must be found to explain why the left wingers and neutrals are not showing up, though statistically at least some of them would be just as racist as the right-wingers on the street. I suggest subconscious or conscious repression by guilt. What about you?

But to then deny the fact of it or to play down the numbers is also immoral, highly offensive to the victims, and makes it all more likely to happen again as old wounds remain unhealed.

I think wounds heal naturally independent of historical perception. If you were stabbed and you figure I did it, your wound would heal or fail to heal regardless of whether I agree I did it. And even if your wound for some reason won't heal if I don't concede I did it, if I don't really think I stabbed you, should I be forced to "admit" it just so your wound would heal? Is it immoral for me to not admit it? And also, independent of whether I stabbed you or if I admit to doing so, would it make a difference if I ever feel a need to stab you in the future?

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Evening Kazuaki

Thanks again for always taking the time to write thorough replies, it's nice for once to engage with someone who actually lays out their reasoning. However all this debate about the Yushukan, A-bombs, and the nature of individual bias and bias in the media, while all being very interesting is rather off topic and I just want to bring things back to my original point to you

You are, here and on the other recent thread on this topic, presenting yourself as an "agnostic on the comfort women issue" who is happy to see this in court - and arguing that people from both sides of the debate should be happy to see this in court - as it allows everyone to present their evidence to be evaluated in a court of law, and is therefore a chance to put the whole thing to bed once and for all; to have a "decisive engagement"

But it isn't anything of the sort. It isn't a hearing on the entire comfort women issue. It relates only to the false stories of a single newspaper from a single discredited source; the fabrications of Mr Yoshida do not make the whole thing a fabrication

And, tucked away in your last-but-one post, your acknowledgement of this point:

As you say, a few liars don't necessarily disprove the whole - in fact, if there are as many victims as in common historiography, not having a few liars would be unusual

Which is all I was really looking for in our debate. However, while debating this point you have insulted me with an accusation of lacking empathy. I requested that you either point out to me where I ever stated that uyoku don't genuinely feel they have a valid argument, or to withdraw your charge of lacking empathy. Can I take the fact that you haven't addressed my request as a tacit withdrawal of your charge? I think I can, but I would really appreciate it if you could acknowledge so (an apology for the insult would also be greatly be appreciated, though I'm not making any demands)

Or - perhaps - was this your attempt to address my request?

They clearly do feel they have a valid argument

Yet, you have also said "I feel extremely sorry for them living in their hate and their fear." thus abscribing their motives to "hate and fear", rather than that they feel they have a valid argument

My saying "I feel extremely sorry for them living in their hate and their fear" does not mean I don't think that they feel they have a valid argument. As I said, they clearly do feel that. You cannot draw your conclusion logically, so it seems you're doing it based on the fact you can't "distinguish me from the swarm" (in your own words). Please don't put words into my mouth like that

the world's attitude literally sealing their voices in does not invoke your sympathy? You cannot make the connection that this in itself causes hate and fear?

The world's attitude to uyoku groups is a response to their extremely verbal hatred. Or are you trying to claim that the world showed that it doesn't like them first, and the uyoku are then responding with their calls to murder Koreans? That argument doesn't work. The disgraceful verbal attacks clearly came first, as the world wouldn't even know of the uyoku otherwise. They don't appear to care in the slightest what the world thinks of them anyway!

in some cases, they don't deny Nanjing but actually suggest it as a good model to follow in Japan's Korean areas

That I'll have to see

Not sure if I'm allowed to post links to Youtube on this site, but here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrxOVbkMG-A

(argh... too long again... more to follow)

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So, with those main points made re our original debate on the article, we still have an interesting debate ongoing regarding bias. After all this back-and-forth, I agree with the theory that I may be biased but unable to judge myself as such. But so may you be; this is a logically sound and universal point which applies to all of us, so while it's an interesting philosophical point it can't be used as an argument against any one person

It was when I realize what kind of testimony a "layman" would find convincing enough to put on his blog… you can only drink that down as convincing if you already have been seriously indoctrinated

Well I certainly didn't drink it down as anything of the sort. See, I'm familiar with the Ask A Korean site and have stumbled upon it a few times, read through a few posts. Your "layman" here is no such thing; that the blog is written entirely from one point of view and doesn't even attempt to be balanced is completely self-evident. Welcome to the internet! And to use your own logic re uyoku, don't you think that the writer of Ask A Korean might genuinely believe they have a valid argument?! Not that I'm resorting to tu qouque - just pointing out that your logic there can be applied to pretty much anyone who isn't demonstrably lying, so it isn't worth much

I just say I do notice a anti-Japan bias, and even produce an example in close proximity

It's one thing to say you notice an anti-Japan bias. Quite another to say that the decks of the world are tilted against Japan. That's a very Japan-centric take on bias; as I have already said, there are people all over the world who think the world is against their country. You probably can find lots of anti-Japan bias in western sources; and look no further than Fox "News" (ahem) for a deluge of anti-Russian, anti-Chinese, and anti-Muslim bilge. And then look at Russia Today for an equally lop-sided pile of anti-Western rubbish; at the China Daily for a similar pile of anti-Western rubbish with an even bigger dose of anti-Japanese venom, and at the Japanese media for large dollops of anti-Chinese and anti-Korean bias. Et cetera, et cetera. Your example regarding the Sono article proves nothing at all, even if I accept it was biased reporting. Perhaps you should turn your attention to what the African media made of her words instead of focusing on western sources; after all, the topic concerns (South) Africa far more directly, and they were very bit as outraged as "the West". Furthermore, you mention your studies of anti-Soviet bias; nothing to do with Japan, but you found plenty of bias. Bias is all over the world, going in every direction, so I don't have much truck for your claim that the decks of the world are tilted against Japan

As you agree, racism and historical perception are not directly linked

I agree only that they are not necessarily causatively linked, but not that there is no correlation

If we assume a Bell-curve type distribution of 20% left-wing, 60% neutral and 20% right wing, and that racists sufficiently so to consider taking their words to the street as 1% of the population

Why assume those stats? Uyoku groups have circa 100,000 members, which is a very long way short of 1% of the population; more like 0.08%

these racists should be scattered more or less evenly among the wings

Should they? Based on what evidence or reasoning? My hypothesis would be that they are not scattered evenly; rather that there is a statistically significant positive correlation between extreme verbal racism and political extremism (not only far right though; far left too)

some explanation must be found to explain why the left wingers and neutrals are not showing up, though statistically at least some of them would be just as racist as the right-wingers on the street

That statement is based on your above statistical assumptions, which I don't recognise to be sound. Even if I did accept your statistical hypothesising, which I do not, I don't think that 0.8% of a population being suppressed racists is a cause for great concern. My background is in psychology actually, and your above statistical reasoning would get laughed out of the house if presented in a paper; but it is an interesting theory so if you have any links to relevant studies please share them, I'd like to read them

if I don't really think I stabbed you, should I be forced to "admit" it just so your wound would heal? Is it immoral for me to not admit it? And also, independent of whether I stabbed you or if I admit to doing so, would it make a difference if I ever feel a need to stab you in the future?

We're not talking about physical wounds not healing. Most of the victims of the physical wounds are already dead (either passed away since, or in many millions of cases having died at the time as a direct result of their injuries). But to humour your argument; if you stabbed me and genuinely believed you hadn't done so, you would be arrested and very probably deemed to be mentally ill and a potential danger to others. Perhaps not the best analogy!

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