Abe says isle dispute with Russia must be settled before peace treaty can be signed

Abe, Putin to meet

Abe, Putin meet, say things

Abe, Putin decide no change can come

Rinse repeat until one of them leaves office, then change the names.

Japan has no card to play. You lost the war. How can you possibly think to gain anything from a defeat? You're bringing shame on the victors. There's nothing in this world which can be called an integral part of one's nation.

If you're so obsessed about the "integral part", why did you invade the Korean peninsula and Manchuria then? Korean peninsula would be considered a integral part of Korea, and Manchuria an integral part of China. Your obsession about "integral part" is outdated and not up for discussion in the 21st centruy.

If every nation thought about "integral parts", we would've had to rewrite the world maps and history books. Move on Japan!

It just like 2 guys are to shake hands after a quarrel and 1 of them saying before shake hands the other guy should follow his condition. Do you think the opposite guy will suddenly follow the other side condition to shake hand? I think this dude Mr. Abe doesn't know what is a math of win-win, showing he is a "loser" of many international affair events he participate. Remind it people and you'll be knowing how many he will lose!

Give the islands to Russia, with the provision that they can never be improved or used for military or spying purposes.

Ha, he promised to "settle" this and.........

turns out he has as much bargaining power as a tissue about to be flushed

Referendum for islanders. Sovereignty being the third choice.

Japan and Russia each claims the northern islands (Chishima) are ours. Russia says they retrieved their territories they lost in Russo-Japanese War while Japan claims the four northern islands are historically Japanese. Both are wrong. The islands were originally inhabited by few ainu people and "Russians." At that time, there was not a consciousness of nation state.

Cricky

Ha, he promised to "settle" this and.........

turns out he has as much bargaining power as a tissue about to be flushed

It is " settled" ...the islands are Russian now and thats that. Thats what Japan got for starting and loosing war. In words of the rightwingers " its been over 70 years, move on.". ... or does that only apply to certain selective WW2 events ?

Brilliant analysis!! Nice one brother!!!

Since the Japanese government cannot accept the proposal without abandoning its claim ... it has no choice but to reject it,"

So abandon the silly claim already and get moving on this..... but the right wing oyaji pride is just too high for that , ne.

Yep. Just trying to pretend that Putin didn't make Abe look like a horse's butt- which he did

Well then, no peace treaty it is.

To all the "experts" claiming that Japan "has as much influence as a tissue", the issue "is settled", "there is no peace treaty then"...

Let's just keep focused, please:

Russia is the one chasing the powerless "tissue paper", asking for a peace treaty!!!!

Considering the powerlessness of the "tissue paper about to be flushed out", the Peeping cannot help but ask the "experts" for an explanation:

Why is Russia "begging" for a treaty (in fact they insist on it regularly), rather than the weak "tissue paper"?

Replays to the Peeping welcome.

Cheers.

Like everything he does, he fails.

So, no answers yet; any chances of getting any at all? Perhaps in the distant future?!

Why is it so difficult for "experts" to answer such a simple question:

Why is that it's the side holding ALL the cards, chasing after the weak tissue paper, begging for a treaty?

The Peeping will be waiting.

Hopefully they can get some momentum in sorting this problem out.

Would be positive for Japan and Russia, not so positive for Australian energy exports to Japan, but thats just my self-interest ;)

Ahh a retort if I may, The Russian Pacific Fleet sails between these islands and there is no way they will acquiesce another country's control of this gateway. Also Japan needs Russian gas, fuel and the proposed pipe line will conceivably run from Vladavostoc to Japan, Korea and China. Through these Islands chain. Japan is desperate for fuel, well the top cats are as there will be lots of profits for them. Putin knows this apparently Japan's top political elite are unaware. Thus the tissue analogy. Got nothing get nothing. Believe it's called a fo par?

"Also Japan needs Russian gas, fuel and the proposed pipe line will conceivably run from Vladavostoc to Japan, Korea and China. Through these Islands chain. Japan is desperate for fuel,"

Well, your beautiful argument is rebutted and rebuffed by the fact Russia is the one trying more desperately for a peace treaty.

It's not the Peeping's saying, the facts and evidential documents of who's doing the chase are out there for free scrutiny.

Please try again.

Well then, no peace treaty it is.

and Russia will keep those islands, Putin aint finished milking the cow that is Japan, Putin has a large thirst and big hands.

We waited this long we can wait another 20 years for the Hydrogen economy to kick in which will pushed Russia further into poverty.

At that point Russia may break up into pieces in which Japan can start negotiate with the Siberian block for return of the isles in exchange for economic development.

The islands belong to Japan. actually no Japan Russia are technically still at war so any ground taken can and will be kept, Japan had a chance to sign a peace treaty, they declined so the islands will stay Russian. vodka anybody

"The islands belong to Russia, as they did prior to 1906"

You ought to revise your history, me thinks.

Perhaps starting with the 1875 Treaty of Saint Petersburg; you know, the treaty in which South Sakhalin was ceded to Russia in Exchange for the islands?

Fell free to read elsewhere, but that would be a nice starting point.

There's a reason why all of the present at the San Francisco maintain that the islands belong to japan; with the exception of Russia, of course.

But then again, Russia objects to illegality accusations in relation to Crimea, isn't it?

@peeping _tom

seriously Russia has the gas, the fuel. Japan needs gas fuel. Russia is hardly desperate to sell what it has. Japan is desperate to get resources.

No treaty, then, unless the "solution" to the issue is Japan getting Nothing back. Because they tossed away any chance ages ago.

Why is that it's the side holding ALL the cards, chasing after the weak tissue paper, begging for a treaty?

OK Peeping since no one else has explained this to you I will, ready?

Russia is simply TOYING with Japan! There that's it in a nutshell!

Japan has ZERO leverage in all this, NONE, and Russia KNOWs this & is simply toying with abe knowing he cant accept the offer, ie toying!

GW - thanks for that, saved me a job.

Putin threw in the 'Peace Treaty' comment to wrongfoot Abe during their recent meeting, and wrongfoot him it did. I don't see any of this 'begging' for a peace treaty that Peeping Tom keeps referring to.

Abe has said a deal would unlock trade and investment from Japanese companies for Russia, which is isolated from Western investment because of sanctions. 

Leaving on past glory, Is Russia so desperate for Japanese money. investment that it would just

accept any terms and condition that Japan dictates.

It is just like most Japanese think labeling an item "Made in Japan" is enough to sell abroad regardless

of the price. Sorry, the world doesn't live in the past.

Japan thinks it is rich but is it really that rich when a vast majority of the peoples standard of living is

really low.

GW

Very interesting explanation; yet, the truth is a bit more complex than that.

Broadly speaking, Russia needs Japan’s finance, expertise and technological know-how to develop Siberia; Russia is not too keen on China to pursue this enterprise. As you probably know Siberia is one of the world’s richest regions, in terms of natural resources; the weather is another kettle of fish though.

You also must know that Siberia was once Chinese territory, stripped by the Czar. Hence one of the reasons why Russia does not see a possible Chinese involvement as an appealing prospect. Most importantly, Russia feels that China still lacks the sort of advanced technologies they need. Disagree and object as much as you like, but we all know that Japan is still up there in terms of advanced technologies, in spite of their love for the fax machines (!)

Even though blessed with the world’s biggest land mass and natural resources, Russia is financially incapable of developing those same islands it refuses to return to the legal owner. Hence, the repeated requests for Japan’s help in developing them!!!

A huge stumbling block in Russia’s aspirations is...the non-existence of a Peace Treaty with Japan.

Japan has made it plainly clear none of the following will happen until one is signed:

https://www.ogj.com/articles/2008/03/japan-russia-to-develop-eastern-siberia-oil-fields.html

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russia-and-japan-discuss-bridge-across-28-miles-of-sea-sqt8kfj8d

As far as the “I cannot find any evidence of Russia “begging” for a peace treaty that that Peeping is talking about", all I can say is: search for it yourself; (this not addresses to you, I know).

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/newsy/russia-wants-to-end-70year-islands-dispute-with-japan

News like this one, nearly always point out to peace offerings coming from the same side; somehow “toying with Japan” is not a prima facie inference following a simple reading; maybe you have privy info from Putin. Who knows!

Even though blessed with the world’s biggest land mass and natural resources, Russia is financially incapable of developing those same islands it refuses to return to the legal owner. Hence, the repeated requests for Japan’s help in developing them!!!

Russsia might be financially incapable of developing Siberia because of the vastness and other hash

conditions but then again is it only Japan that is financially and technically capable of developing

Siberia ?

All pundits they call on TV always float the idea that North Korea and Russia need Japanese money

and technology but what they forget to know is whether Russia is in such economic mess and in a rush to develop siberia and would have no choice but accept any conditions thrown their way. That would be naive

thinking.

"Russsia might be financially incapable of developing Siberia because of the vastness and other hash

conditions but then again is it only Japan that is financially and technically capable of developing

Siberia ?"

Maybe you should ask Russia why they, Russians WANT Japan to develop Siberia?

The Peeping does not know why; but we has read that;s what Russia wants! Just don't ask the Peeping the reasons why.

Peeping Tom - thanks for addressing the comment. Watched your link. There was a bit of speculation at the end that Russia was hurting because of the sanctions, but by no stretch of the imagination could Russia be described as begging from the link you posted.

Stupid Abe was trapped again. While Putin offered peace first, Abe offered peace last. We need a Godfather who would make an offer that no one could deny.

cucashoopboy

A single link? And that lone link made you realise that Russia is not the party most actively seeking and proposing a treaty???

Good on you then, says the Peeping!

Peeping Tom - that lone link didn't make me realise anything, except to retain my scepticism of your opinion. Now stop that sophistry please! :-)

They were taken by Russia, and are held by Russia, but they are Japanese islands.

ownership is 9/10 of the law and Russia currently owns them. No amount of diplomatic pressure or military force will change this. Japan only option is to negotiate, Putin has Japan by the nads, and he knows it.

Putin has put the ball in Abe’s court. He looks the idiot not signing the agreement.

Peace comes before everything.

expatSep. 15  12:12 pm JST

He who fails to understand settled history is doomed to bang on about it forever. Abe, in this case. The islands belong to Russia, as they did prior to 1906, and have since 1953. 

And he who keeps repeating false information is a troll. The 4 islands in question became Japanese territory by negotiation and a treaty signed with Russia in 1855. They were never Russian and never taken by war.

Japan has no card to play. You lost the war. How can you possibly think to gain anything from a defeat? You're bringing shame on the victors. There's nothing in this world which can be called an integral part of one's nation.

Who are you addressing ? PM Abe, the three ghosts of Yoyogi Park ? :)

Japan thinks it is rich but is it really that rich when a vast majority of the peoples standard of living is really low.

Japan is rich as it the world's largest creditor. The standard of living is comparable with Italy, France or Canada but below the standard of the Northern European countries and certain districts in the US.

Excuse me, not Canada but the UK :)

is it really that rich when a vast majority of the peoples standard of living is really low

Even the low standard of living in Japan is better than the standard of living in some other countries.

"ownership is 9/10 of the law and Russia currently owns them."

The quote is wrong to begin with:

Possession is 9/10, this the correct quote, NOT "OWNERSHIP IS 9/10 OF THE LAW".

However, this is not a legal precept. The law does not entertain such nonsense.

"possession is 9/10" is not in any statute books anywhere in the World.

This quote is a misrepresentation of a property dispute where there's possession but the absence of clear legal title.

Russia possesses them; Russia does not own them.

Japan does! Getting them is another story. But they're the legal owners, just like Ukraine is Crimea's legal owner.

If you take my car forcefully, you'll have possession. But you'll never have ownership for as long as I, the legal owner continue to contend your illegal possession. That's called non-acquiescence.

That's why China lost any "rights" over the Senkakus, due to inaction for well over 50 years; they acquiesced with Japan's possession.

That's why Japan keeps on protesting Takeshima and The Northern Territories; they refuse to acquiesce with Korea and Russia's possession.

Russia does not own anything. They illegally acquired territory when all Allied powers had agreed that they were not fighting for such purposes.

The islands are kept illegally.

received from one of my - Japanese Linkedin connections - The four islands problem was originally created by the US govt just after the war. After the war (or even during the war) Stalin wanted to have the half of Hokkaido (just like Berlin) but Pres Truman rejected the idea. And Pres Truman gave four islands to Stalin instead. Japanese govt has been insisting that Soviet stole four islands but it is not true. (These were simply given by the US to USSR) Japan lost the war and we don’t have any right to claim fours islands back. (We can, of course, negotiate with Putin but it is very weak) It is the inconvenient truth Japanese people must face. I think PM Abe knows the true history and the precondition is not workable.