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© KYODOJapan, S Korea need to resolve radar issue swiftly: Kono
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showchinmono
I think The S.K Defense Ministry is, off-the-record, waiving a white flag already.
English version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGWO4Kdk5j0
Translation: Please do not disclose your trump card to the public
SJ
Facts are mostly useless for those who like to believe what they want to believe. The fact is that Japanese military officers can not express their expertise opinions that may defy the Prime Minister, who is the commander-in-chief of the Japan Self-Defense Forces. However, one of the most authoritative experts on this matter, who was retired and is relatively free from the hierarchical constraint, already repeatedly elucidated the dispute in the high sea. But, most ignorant jingoists can not and are not ready to accept it.
https://ironna.jp/article/11560 (Japanese)
https://twitter.com/toshio_tamogami/status/1076637077230342144
https://www.reddit.com/r/korea/comments/a8sje0/a_rightwing_history_revisionist_and_former/ (English)
sf2k
Abe's government? Yeah good luck with that
BeerDeliveryGuy
(locking on to an aircraft emitting an IFF code requires manual override from an officer with executive authority)
Japan finds the explanation unsatisfactory and releases video. Video shows clear skies and calm seas, NK ship is within 20 meters of SK ship. SK ship is not flying colors or responding to international ID and emergency frequencies.(suspicion arises that SK irradiated the P1 because they were busted either inserting or extracting special forces, or conducting illegal trade with NK)
SK backtracks and claims that they never used the FC radar and accuses Japan of “distorting facts.”(suspicion of SK wrongdoing grows stronger)
SK releases video that shows the P-1 flying 150m above and 500m away as the MSDF originally claimed while calling this a “dangerous threat.”(even with the doctored smartphone filmed sound quality, the hull number is still audible, and the SK ship is bound by protocol to respond)
SK is just shooting themselves in the other foot with this baffling “video evidence” with cheesy BGM. If they are trying to conceal special forces activities, they should have stuck with the original excuse without lying about the weather.
If the ship’s crew locked on out of malice or mischief, take disciplinary measures and apologize.
If they are trying to conceal illicit trade or aid of NK, use one of the above excuses.
kwatt
S Korea's video seems absolutely nothing, not proving anything about dangerous flight at low altitude that Korea blames. Japan plane seems proved flying high up in the sky. Japan plane was surveillance one, not fight jet, so no threat at all. If Japan fight jet got close to the warship, they might have been be a little scared of it. I just wonder why Korean warship did not ask ""What is purpose of your act" to Japan surveillance at that time when Koreans saw the Japan surveillance plane and also when Koreans already heard the noisy radio from Japan plane. S Korea should answer these questions. Maybe Koreans say our radio device was broken, so we could not send message to Japan plane soon.
NZ2011
I really wish despite all the churn Japan and South Korea really start working together. There would need to be concessions on both sides, but there are other countries in the region that absolutely celebrate anytime there is an issue...
Ganbare Japan!
The sooner SK apologizes and admits this was a political stunt ordered from the top, the sooner Japan-SK relations can move forward. Or is SK just a tribute State of communist China as most people think?
extanker
If you have to circle the aircraft in the video because it's too small to see, the aircraft is not too close...
Also, has there ever been an explanation as to why the SK ship never responded to hails? Like, if SK is telling the truth, just to say 'We're not tracking you' or better yet 'Stop flying so close'? And don't even try to say 'they were too busy with humanitarian aid to respond', someone better always be manning communications and really make the time to respond to an aircraft claiming you are targeting them.
Sorry South Korea, you aren't looking good here.
BeerDeliveryGuy
I initially wanted to give SK the benefit of the doubt on this one, and stated so on the original article. However their flip-flopping backtracking claims (we were careless with the FCR.... wait, we NEVER used it), outright lies (bad weather, we were tracking NK ship), laughable “rebuttal,” and other factors (radio silence, close proximity to NK ship, no flags in Japanese EEZ), are only digging SK a deeper hole.
I’m gonna give them one more benefit of the doubt and assume they are tying to keep special forces activities from being revealed to the public and by so, NK.
Will Goode
Well neither are going to get an Oscar, the Japanese one had bad sound quality, and the Korean one had bad music.
This wouldn't have happened with Morse code !
BeerDeliveryGuy
SK really is stuck between a rock and a hard place here... Allies don’t even reveal SF activities to one another, and SK would do anything to keep NK from knowing about it’s Spec op activities in the current political climate.
If they are conducting illegal trade or aid of NK, the US and UN won’t be happy.
If the ship crew acted independently, it reflects poorly on the entire ROK Navy.
SK has already been busted lying, and are probably very desperate right now.
The only real comfort they have is confidence that Japan won’t reveal the lock on record as a matter of national security.
Will Goode
Maybe under Artie 34, they'll find you can't illuminate a friend or a for, without purpose of act, being known.
Will Goode
Maybe under Article , they'll find you can't illuminate a friend or a for, without purpose of act, being known, so this won't happen again.
Schopenhauer
It was a bad move Japanese Defense Ministry made public a video clip of the radar lock-on incident. Defense minister is not a wise man.
extanker
If you had to pick one video to believe to be reliable, are you going to pick the one with poor sound quality or the one that is doctored up with music and edits to be 'dramatic'?
One country said 'Here's our video, you be the judge.', the other said 'Hold on while we pretty this up so we look our best'...
tinawatanabe
Korean government rhetoric when SK is to blame.
browny1
For me the interesting question in all of this, is why - as SJ's links clearly showed - would ex general Tamogami, former Head of the Airforce and a "proud" ultra rightist, take the side of South Korea in all of this?
Why? Changed his spots? Getting paid? Hates the LDP? Has Big Buddies in SK military? He is correct?..etc.
Why?
Perhaps some of our decisive posters could elaborate, because somewhere in Tamogami's lean, more than a smidgeon of proof is to be found I believe.
Goodlucktoyou
Watch the latest released pictures. SK was right, japan should apologies and everybody move along.
check RT news.
extanker
Going by South Korea’s officially edited footage, they are being a bunch of drama queens that owe Japan an apology.
I mean, if they’re going to add effects and music to their version, they could’ve at least CGI’d some waves in there. Or maybe even made the P1 flying inverted and had the pilots flipping them the bird like Maverick in Top Gun. You know, really sell it. I think they really missed an opportunity.
Will Goode
*foe
SJ
The key question here is whether the Japanese P-1 aircraft was targeted by the fire-control radar aboard the South Korean destroyer on December 21, 2018. The remaining issues, such as radio communication, flag, weather, copyright, background music and etc., are just to distract the main point.
The key question was already answered in public, even a week before the Japanese Ministry of Defense hesitantly released the problematic video on December 28, apparently by the request of their commander-in-chief:
https://twitter.com/toshio_tamogami/status/1076127935558340609
https://twitter.com/toshio_tamogami/status/1076129138245660672
https://twitter.com/toshio_tamogami/status/1076131106745765890
https://twitter.com/toshio_tamogami/status/1076133661378981888
As the key question was already elucidated by a few Japanese military experts, while other experts in active service have kept silence, some people here try hard to bring up other minor issues to distract the main point. Before arguing further, amateurish but patriotic nationalists here have better first read and study what some retired Japanese experts say on this matter: https://ironna.jp/article/11560
Samit Basu
@extanker
Listen for yourself what it sounded like on the other side of radio. A totally incomprehensible noise. Korea's version of event checks out, like all other things here.
https://youtu.be/CGWO4Kdk5j0?t=216
Samit Basu
@Ganbare Japan!
You mean Abe san apologizes it as a political stunt to build support for this constitutional revision campaign.
Remember, Japanese defense minister and MoD officials didn't want to release that video, but Abe ordered them to against their wills.
@browny1
It is not Tamogami alone. A former JMSDF vice admiral is also disputing the video as presented by Jaanese MoD represented as a sufficient evidence to prove a Lock-On.
https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20181229/p2a/00m/0na/024000c
Triring
Samit BasuToday 11:38 am JST
I shot that out of the water in the earlier article.
Basically ROK cannot be trusted with anything.
Tom Denk
The bottom line ? One North Korean Boogieman gone, trillions wasted on US warmachines that no one wants to have near their town/prefection, elections incoming. Let's Restart the fearmonging, some folks need this kind of politcal nonsense to get off the chair to the votingstations.
Samit Basu
@Tiring
No you didn't.
The ROK is trusted with the wartime command of US troops.
No, the US DoD does not entrust Japan with the wartime command of USFJ.
That's the different level of thrust US has on its allies.
Kazuaki Shimazaki
browny1Today 10:35 am JST
Actually, he does give his reason in the ironna article.
However, it is feared that the Defense Ministry will ban the simulated targeting of civilian aircraft for training purposes as dangerous. In that case, SAM units will lose many training opportunities causing them to weaken. I would not like that to happen, because that is not dangerous training.
Akie
Recommend Abe agree with Kono.
Triring
You really need to get you facts straightened out.
The US Military obtains command of ROK troops during a crisis not the other way around but US military DOES NOT have this kind of agreement with JAPAN.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/seoul-presses-u-s-to-hand-over-wartime-command-of-south-korean-military-1509047186
With a stunt like this I doubt the US will relinquish it's position for a long time.
Samit Basu
@Tiring
So you are out of date on facts on the ground, not too surprising after reading your posts.
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/414407-troubling-signs-in-us-south-korea-alliance
kwatt
If S Korean warplane was targeted same way by fire-control radar, I (and everyone) doubt nothing would happen at the dangerous situation? Korean warplane would fire as soon as possible because S Korea is still at war. Japan is not at war, so pilots were not in panic at that time.
Samit Basu
@kwatt
If it was the reverse, then the matter would be discovered between two sides without public disclosure to make sure there are no errors and misunderstanding. Only when it becomes clear that there is a conclusive proof of a lock-on with supporting evidence would it become a diplomatic incident.
Japan by comparison made the public claims announcement in less than 24 hours after the incident took place, had no time to properly analyze the data that there were no errors and mistakes on Japan's side. Now Japan's in big trouble because Japan can't find the STIR radar signal from the ESM record.
kazetsukai
The issue here may not be just a matter of S Korea and Japan.
S & N Korea are trying to be "united" in more whys than one. A joint military meeting in the ocean is a possibility.
But, the current problem is S Korea trying to distance itself from Japan in more ways than one.
S Korea is playing a similar card to what China has been touting about the Nanking M. problem and a few other WWII - so called atrocities for which Japan has paid for in financial and economic as well as technological assistance for decades. S Korea has openly taken over and added to what China was openly doing to Japan...
With S Korea joining N Korea now openly... and China is quietly extending its military and covert actions in Asia and NOT openly supporting or criticizing N or S Korea for the past year or so... makes the world wander... what is China, N Korea and S Korea are up to.
Interestingly behind the scenes... Russia continues to be silent but started to militarize the Northern Japanese claimed islands...
Caution is in the wind for Japan...
Triring
It has not gone into affect and I believe the US military will pull out if it does.
Basically the US does not trust ROK as mentioned within the article and with a stunt like this, the US could not verify ROK is ready.
kwatt
It seems to me that Japan just showed everyone the video of what actually happened there quickly rather than to analyze on what happened there. Everyone even Koreans want to see the whole video without edit. One think I knew is S Koreans do not film much such approaching planes and ships. All radar signal record that MSDF has seems to be a last key card. S Korean seems to be in rather bigger trouble than Japan is.
Samit Basu
@Triring
Why on earth would the US ever pull out from such prime location in the execution of its China containment strategy? Which is the closest US airbase to Beijing, Osan or Iwakuni? Think!
It is already in the process and will be done within Moon's term. The only reason it wasn't done sooner is because former president Park didn't want to raise taxes to spend government spending. Moon is the "Tax and Spend" kind of politician, so money is not an issue.
http://world.kbs.co.kr/service/news_view.htm?lang=e&Seq_Code=130559
melonbarmonster
Lol what a joke. Japan trying to throw cold water on inter Korea cooperation and gain support for military buildup.
kwatt
@SJ
It seems to me that ex general Tamogami is saying weird things on targeting radar. It means, in other words, "Gun that is just point at someone is harmless/safe unless pulling its trigger. I think nobody wants to be pointed by gun even unloaded. Tamogami was kicked out of SDF years ago because he still has a little weird idea on SDF.
SJ
@kwatt
Anybody can express his/her opinion, even without any supporting evidence. But in discussion, you need to bring facts supporting your argument. Your imaginative statements do not support anything. What is your background that can qualify you for disputing the published article in Japanese contributed by the ex general, certainly one of the most authoritative experts on this matter?
As any military organization is hierarchical, it would be very difficult for military officers in active service to say something that may defy their superiors, especially the chiefer-in-command, the prime minister in Japan. Therefore any evaluative statement from retired officers, especially those who once were at a top position, is critical, as Japanese officers on duty keep silent.
If you want to dispute the ex general's article, you need to cite disputing arguments from other military experts comparable to him, not from yourself or from other laymen or teens who are dominant in online sites such as YouTube and here.
kwatt
@SJ
Ex general Tamogami is lately insisting the targeting radar is not dangerous,,,,, on twitter but nobody actually pays attention to him. Most SDF members and politicians do not believe what he said. I've heard high ranking SDF officers were very happy when Tamogami was out. He used to be arguing with other SDF officers. It seems he could not be a part of Air-SDF system after all. I'm pretty sure all Air-SDF pilots think targeting radar is very dangerous at any time.
tinawatanabe
Because SK foreign minister called Japan's foreign minister. Even if they talked, Japan is very angry at SK fabricated story..
Kazuaki Shimazaki
@SJToday 05:13 pm JST
If the fight is about the "number" of authorities, you'll have to accept with the Japanese government including the Defense Ministry against him, he is a little outnumbered. He is even more outnumbered if you count the number of authorities that made CUES.
If he is an authority no matter what, we may have to accept his claim, uncritically, that Japan was not an aggressor nation (remember, that one that got him fired). Maybe we should assess his claim on its merits.
Further, as I've already quoted, he does have a self-admitted motive for slanting things this way.
Basically, what he said is that it is not dangerous, and normal, for SAM units to use incoming targets for use as training. The concrete examples he gives are own planes, civilian planes and allied planes. South Korea's act would seem to differ on both counts.
Finally, here is what he said at the end:
韓国に警告を与えるためには、韓国に対して圧倒的に強い日本の経済力を利用するのが一番いいと思う。
We should warn Korea using Japan's economic strength. (So he is actually advocating punishment.)
Ex_Res
Because SK foreign minister called Japan's foreign minister. Even if they talked, Japan is very angry at SK fabricated story..
No Tina, you are very angry at what you believe is a fabricated story.
showchinmono
Whatever Kono says, Japan should never compromise to let the issue fade away because this could be not only the issue of hostile action by Korean Navy but also the possible cover-ups against UN resolution, a.k.a ship-to-ship cargo transfer . P-1 is a patrol plane. That's it's job to patrol across Japan EEZ.
Samit Basu
@showchinmono
You mean the transfer of cargo to an wooden boat barely large enough to hold 5 fishermen?
The area in question was NOT JAPAN'S EEZ.
It is officially called the Japan-Korea PMZ in accordance with the Fisheries Accord that Japan signed. Korea has equal right to fish and patrol in the PMZ as Japan does.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Julia_Xue/publication/233086176/figure/fig2/AS:368175842643971@1464791369896/Agreed-zones-of-Sino-Japan-Sino-Korean-fisheries-agreements-Source-Modified-from-H-K.png
SJ
@kwatt
As I wrote before, your imaginative speculation without any citation is meaningless. Please cite any sources that may support your arguments above.
kwatt
@SJ
Fact is Japan SDF thinks the targeting radar is very dangerous in peace time but Tamogami thinks it is no problem unless automatically pulling trigger. Fact is whole SDF never think that way. That is all about it. Plain and simple. I'm not arguing, just telling the fact.
SJ
@kawatt
As I wrote before, it is nearly impossible for any SDF officers to defy the request of the chiefer-in-command, the Japanese prime minister. If not, show any supporting evidence.
If the whole SDF never think that way, then why doesn't any single SDF officer refute or comment on the article or ask retreating of the article itself? As long as the SDF takes no action on the article, the article is a critical and valid source in evaluating the radar incident, or even it can be interpreted as the SDF acknowledges it.
kwatt
@SJ
You must be misunderstanding something. I'm not arguing about the radar incident really did happen or not. As I said repeatedly, JSDF thinks targeting radar is very dangerous but Tamogami doesn't think that way. When SDF officer is allowed to comment on the article, this officer will/must refute the truth. Comprende esto?
BeerDeliveryGuy
Tamogami is simply playing devil’s advocate by saying “the radar itself cannot shoot down an aircraft and a missile launch must pass through several safety checks.” And “it is common to lock on to passenger aircraft, SDF and US aircraft in training.”
What he does not mention isn’t that civilian aircraft do not have FCR alerts, and SDF and US aircraft are notified that they will be locked on to for training and a notified of the training mode radar frequency.
Then in a reply he advocates economic sanctions on SK, so its really not clear what he’s trying to get at, other than more re-tweets.
SJ
Another military expert, Sucho Montani, a former SDF officer, supports the opinion of Tamogami, but as I know no any other military expert in Japan yet tried to refute the opinions of the two experts: Tamogami and Montani.
https://japan-indepth.jp/?p=43360
https://lite-ra.com/2018/12/post-4452_3.html
showchinmono
Yep it was Japan's EEZ overlapped by whatever called PMZ
So? That doesn't keep Japan from patrolling. Ship-to-ship transfer does not necessarily have to be something with heavy weight. What the heck was (a) North Korean wooden boat(s) is(are) doing anyway in Japan's EEZ or in Japan-Korea PMZ ?
Triring
Think? What?
The relationship between ROK and the US is going south every minute and if drastic measures are not taken the US will most certainly pull out.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/01/the-us-south-korea-military-cost-sharing-agreement-has-expired-now-what
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/03/world/asia/trump-troops-south-korea.html
https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/2150491/trumps-vow-end-military-drills-south-korea-contradicts-pentagon
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/06/07/trump-still-holds-jimmy-carters-view-on-withdrawing-u-s-troops-from-south-korea/?utm_term=.aa993370957c
extanker
@Samit Batus
So now you're excuse is that they heard a hail on the radio that they could not understand and their official reaction was to ignore it?? And you find that an acceptable excuse? That's a whole other level of incompetence on the part of the South Korean military.
As an 18 year old private in basic training, I learned basic radio communications. It included the phrase 'say again' for times when you couldn't understand what was said on the radio. Sounds like the South Korean navy needs some retraining.
extanker
@Samit Batsu
Wow, maybe you should slow down on criticizing someone's facts when your own are in question.
An OPCON transfer is something Seoul wants, not the US. Even the section of the article you quoted states that Seoul is hopeful it can get the US to agree to it by 2020. They won't. The US doesn't turn over operational control of US forces to anyone. (Which also happens to be stated stated right there in your quote from the article) Especially when they keep antagonizing Japan, another key ally of the US.
Triring
Looks as if the some members of the within the Japan House of Representative Security Council is making motion to push this incident up to the UN Security Council since locking on the FC radar is a clear violation of CUES as well as not showing the national identification flag and not responding to calls on emergency frequencies.
The bigger question Japan wants to push forward to UNSC is, why was the ROK Navy and Coast Guard in contact with a NK fishing vessel in calm waters. It looks as if neither Japan Coast Guard or the JMSDF had intercepted any distress signal for the NK fishing vessel so how did the ROK know it was in trouble or where to look?