Japan opposes Russia's plan for tariff-free zone on disputed isles

Russian President Vladimir Putin unveiled the proposal earlier this month, with the aim of luring overseas investment to the islands off Japan's northernmost main island of Hokkaido.

Oh Yeah!!

Sounds like a really safe long term investment opportunity.

Where and how do I sign up to wave my money good bye?

Great idea, where's all this cheap European stuff we were told about after entering some free trade agreement with Europe. I'll be buying from those island if it works out

the second negotiation topic then is the remaining open territorial package consisting of the rest of all Kuril Islands up to Kamchatka plus the southern part of Kurafuto / Sakhalin

Japan is not claiming and has not claimed any part of Sakhalin for a very long time. The maps and info you have is horribly outdated.

The issue is simply the four islands.

Fighto...

Russia needs to return all 4 Japanese islands, which are inalienable Japanese territory.

Russia doesn't need to do anything. Maybe Japan should give back Hokkaido to the Ainu or Okinawa to Ryukyu?

For those anti-LDP, JCP insists Russia must return not only 4 islands but all of Chishima (Kuril)islands unconditionally.

The Islands are Russians and they can do what they want with them.

Japan tend to forget that it’s 2021 not 1938 so the geography changed.

I don’t see Germany protesting to Russia about how Kaliningrad (Königsberg) is managed or Italy complaining to Slovenia and Croatia for the lost region of Istria.

Swallow the ultra conservative nationalistic pride and move forward.

THIS.　Is BNMAU a part of Soviet Union or what? Not to mention how exactly the military collision has happened.

I don't know what 'BNMAU' is. The border region that was part of the USSR is now part of Russia. The much larger area of Mongolia which was invaded by Japan is now part of Mongolia. Has been since Mongolia gained independence from China. I think it was occupied by Japan for only a few weeks before the Red Army intervened.

As for how Mongolian forces came to collaborate with the Red Army in the Battle for Manchuria, I guess it's because the Red Army liberated Mongolia in 1939 and/or Mongolia felt threatened by Japanese armies on it's border given they already invaded once. That's just an educated guess. Does it matter?

@KennyG

Ask Mongolians if they think they once used to be citizens of Soviet Union.

Mongolia requested annexation by the Soviet Union but was knocked back. What's your point?

Too late for North American or Australian native people to reclaim their lands. There are almost none left.

@KennyG

Mongolia requested annexation by the Soviet Union but was knocked back. What's your point?

Does that make 1939 Japan invaded Soviet Union? What kind of brain circuit is that?

Japan invaded the Soviet Union and Mongolia. After the Red Army expelled them from the Soviet Union, they moved in and expelled them from Mongolia. After Japanese forces were expelled, the Red Army left Mongolia until the Battle for Manchuria in 1945 when the Mongolian army joined the Red Army. After the Battle for Manchuria, the Red Army left Mongolia and Manchuria.

There are more Soviet war memorials in Manchuria and Mongolia than there are in Leningrad. That means, a lot.

Dully noted, dully ignored.

Yep. entire Asia would have been completely peaceful as colonies flattering everyday to their white bosses like a dog

Good point. It's true Japanese armies invaded the Soviet Union in 1939 and Japan stole those lands from the native people. Japan has to pay a price for that as Germany did with Königsberg but to suggest east Asia would have lived in peace in some capitalist utopia if it weren't for Japanese aggression in the war is utterly absurd.

Japanese politicians and citizens demanding Russia hand over those lands as if such demands don't make it more certain the Russians will keep them is just as absurd. The only possible way for Japan to get anything is to have good relations with Russia, engage in mutually beneficial projects and then at some point in the future, respectfully ask for jurisdiction over 1 or 2. The Ainu have more chance of getting all 4 islands than the Japanese state does.

The LDP as a US-founded and backed organization has no choice but to oppose Russia, even if Russia proposes an idea which might be beneficial to both countries.

In case you didn't know already-

[ In a major covert operation of the cold war, the Central Intelligence Agency spent millions of dollars to support the conservative party that dominated Japan's politics for a generation.

"This story reveals the intimate role that Americans at official and private levels played in promoting structured corruption and one-party conservative democracy in post-war Japan, and that's new," said John Dower, a leading Japan scholar at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "We look at the L.D.P. and say it's corrupt and it's unfortunate to have a one-party democracy. But we have played a role in creating that misshapen structure. ]

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/09/world/cia-spent-millions-to-support-japanese-right-in-50-s-and-60-s.html

Russia=Too much land

Agree but being from Norway, a neighboring country, I know trying to take it away from them hasn't gone well. In fact, it's gone very very badly. Every time it's been tried, Russia gets bigger. Best to just leave them be to swill vodka and be happy.

Russia=Poverty.

According to the CIA world factbook, poverty in Russia is almost 10% lower than USA and Russians get free health care and an excellent free education.

Russians trying to escape and go to other countries for better life.

Hardly only Russians. Lots of Japanese want to live elsewhere.

Anyway, I hope Japan can get hold of at least 2 of those islands. All 4 is out of the question. Forget it. 2 may be possible with a lot of concessions. Not now but at some point in the future if Japan and Russia have a good relationship. What is important if Japanese citizens really want 2 of those islands under the jurisdiction of the Japanese state is to tell right-wing politicians to STFU about them "being part of Japan". This kind of talk just makes the Russians shrug and say, "Well, Japan can forget about any territorial concessions from us."

Russia will never return what they’ve stolen, just ask Ukraine.

Fighto! "Japan is not claiming and has not claimed any part of Sakhalin for a very long time. The maps and info you have is horribly outdated. "

A lot of maps in Japan show South Sakhalin in a different color than Russia (some years ago I even show a map whit the whole island)! Exactly like disputed territories like Western Sahara. Just Google world map in Japanese

 It's true Japanese armies invaded the Soviet Union in 1939 and Japan stole those lands from the native people. Japan has to pay a price for that as Germany did with Königsberg but to suggest east Asia would have lived in peace in some capitalist utopia if it weren't for Japanese aggression in the war is utterly absurd.

Japanese politicians and citizens demanding Russia hand over those lands as if such demands don't make it more certain the Russians will keep them is just as absurd. The only possible way for Japan to get anything is to have good relations with Russia, engage in mutually beneficial projects and then at some point in the future, respectfully ask for jurisdiction over 1 or 2. The Ainu have more chance of getting all 4 islands than the Japanese state does.

Ask Mongolians if they think they once used to be citizens of Soviet Union.

And I personally do not mind the entire world starts returning lands to the native people. I rather want to see how the world map would be redrawn.

Ask Mongolians if they think they once used to be citizens of Soviet Union.

Mongolia requested annexation by the Soviet Union but was knocked back. What's your point?

Does that make 1939 Japan invaded Soviet Union? What kind of brain circuit is that?

Korean peninsula could have been Japan or Soviet Union in the first place then.

The border region was never a part of USSR and it doesn't matter what it is now,

ok. I don't speak Russian.

Really?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_border_conflicts

Returning those islands to Ainu is as relastic as Russia returning them to Japan.

Russia=Poverty

Where you get your information from, excite.com?

The Islands are Russians and they can do what they want with them.

Japan tend to forget that it’s 2021 not 1938 so the geography changed.

I don’t see Germany protesting to Russia about how Kaliningrad (Königsberg) is managed or Italy complaining to Slovenia and Croatia for the lost region of Istria.

Swallow the ultra conservative nationalistic pride and move forward.

Heck. Why doesn't the entire world stop BS-ing about racial discrimination, human rights, UN and International treaties, justice, etc, all those craps.

What can the EU offer that Japan make better. Wines ? No because the EU are claiming that over the last 50 years climate change has cause all these dangerous weather condition, like globally heating, fires and droughts. This would have to effect the condition of EU wine and quality would be at it worst in 50 years. ???? But no one are claiming that the quality of wine are deteriorating over the last 50 years. Who are you to believe the climate change scientist or the wine classes. One would assume the wine classes are not being truthful when they evaluate wines ?????

What can the EU offer that Japan make better. Wines ? No because the EU are claiming that over the last 50 years climate change has cause all these dangerous weather condition, like globally heating, fires and droughts. This would have to effect the condition of EU wine and quality would be at it worst in 50 years. ???? But no one are claiming that the quality of wine are deteriorating over the last 50 years. Who are you to believe the climate change scientist or the wine classes. One would assume the wine classes are not being truthful when they evaluate wines ?????

This harks back to Japan not accepting and addressing the consequences of their actions in starting WW2.

My wife who has been teaching for two decades didn't even know that Japan is responsible for the deaths of 20 million souls in that particular theatre.

And that's to say nothing about the downstream effects, such as China falling to the communists due to having had their republic so weakened by Japan. No CCP no Korean war no Vietnam war no Pol Pot in Cambodia... In total, you could probably attribute 100 million deaths to Japanese aggression. Still, it's all glossed over in their school history books.

Suck it up Japan, they're Russian islands, now.

@Fighto!

Let me remind you, that Treaty of San Francisco was signed by Japan and the Allied Powers on behalf of the United Nations by ending the legal state of war and providing for redress for hostile actions up to and including World War II. It was signed by 49 nations on 8 September 1951, in San Francisco, California, U.S. Some Japanese revisionism is simply not going to change the status quo and the status quo at the time of the signing of the treaty.

Robert CikkiToday  11:03 am JST

@Fighto!

Let me remind you, that Treaty of San Francisco was signed by Japan and the Allied Powers on behalf of the United Nations by ending the legal state of war and providing for redress for hostile actions up to and including World War II. It was signed by 49 nations on 8 September 1951, in San Francisco, California, U.S. Some Japanese revisionism is simply not going to change the status quo and the status quo at the time of the signing of the treaty.

And let me remind you that the USSR was not a signatory to that 1951 San Francisco Treaty and as a result the signatory nations consider the islands to be Japanese territory under illegal Russian occupation.

Russia needs to return all 4 Japanese islands, which are inalienable Japanese territory.

Then, and only then, Russia and Japan can talk free trade deals.

Yes, of course that is the wrong discussion. The four islands are Japanese and have to be given back. After that two topics should be negotiated, because still open. One is the peace treaty, and separated from that treaty that naturally much more than islands, namely economic, cultural, military and other bilateral issues, the second negotiation topic then is the remaining open territorial package consisting of the rest of all Kuril Islands up to Kamchatka plus the southern part of Kurafuto / Sakhalin, to decide which side receives which parts of it or if it is managed together tariff free or whatever. That’s how it was and is taught at schools, also even former Soviet Union influenced, depicted on atlas maps from decades ago and those you can buy at any store nowadays, and it is IMO the most pragmatic and fair as well as easy way to solve those disputes finally.

I don't know what 'BNMAU' is. The border region that was part of the USSR is now part of Russia. The much larger area of Mongolia which was invaded by Japan is now part of Mongolia. Has been since Mongolia gained independence from China. I think it was occupied by Japan for only a few weeks before the Red Army intervened.

BNMAU=БНМАУ=Бүгд Найрамдах Монгол Ард Улс

The border region was never a part of USSR and it doesn't matter what it is now,　No, It is just a fabricated guess. The neutral pact had washed that conflict out. Stop naive fine-sounding talk. The force is everything and I should translate it into violence.

Return the lands to the first people like Ainu??? Just Laughable.

Japan invaded the Soviet Union and Mongolia. After the Red Army expelled them from the Soviet Union, they moved in and expelled them from Mongolia. After Japanese forces were expelled, the Red Army left Mongolia until the Battle for Manchuria in 1945 when the Mongolian army joined the Red Army. After the Battle for Manchuria, the Red Army left Mongolia and Manchuria.

There are more Soviet war memorials in Manchuria and Mongolia than there are in Leningrad. That means, a lot.

Japan invaded the Soviet Union and Mongolia

THIS.　Is BNMAU a part of Soviet Union or what? Not to mention how exactly the military collision has happened.　　

That's all very nice and dandy ...but the reality is the islands are Russian now and no matter how much the right wing gets their knickers in a twist , will remain so. WW2 happened over 7 decades ago time to move on, isn't that what you guys say to everyone else?

Who are your your guys? Of course not. "Moving on" and " Stop fabricating historical facts" are totally different messages.

It native lands that Japan initialy stole and then the Soviet union took after the defeat and surrender of Japan of ww2 now Russia controls them.

All part of the new economic zone plan.

tomlivesToday  09:12 am JST

This harks back to Japan not accepting and addressing the consequences of their actions in starting WW2.

My wife who has been teaching for two decades didn't even know that Japan is responsible for the deaths of 20 million souls in that particular theatre.

And that's to say nothing about the downstream effects, such as China falling to the communists due to having had their republic so weakened by Japan. No CCP no Korean war no Vietnam war no Pol Pot in Cambodia... In total, you could probably attribute 100 million deaths to Japanese aggression. Still, it's all glossed over in their school history books.

Suck it up Japan, they're Russian islands, now.

Yep. entire Asia would have been completely peaceful as colonies flattering everyday to their white bosses like a dog

Many Japanese people do not know or are unwilling to admit that in fact Japan is facing a very difficult international environment today.

What Japan facing now is a resurgent China which spends tens of billions of dollars on military and advanced technologies each year several times as much money as Japan spends. A North Korea with nuclear missiles.and South Korea, a peer competitor in technology fields which has already surpassed Japan in many important scientific and technological fields.

And as we all know, Japan has territorial disputes with all its neighbors, and all these neighbor countries have deep hatred for Japan , it’s not a secret that a large number of people in China and the koreas want to completely destroy Japan. Japan and Russia also distrust each other in their relations. 

With an aging population and sluggish economy and weakened superiority in advanced technologies Japan’s neighbor countries are Japan's worst nightmares in the near future.

Russia=Too much land. 1000x that of Japan for similar population, yet always poor.

Russia=Poverty. Especially in East Asia region. People are poor, alcoholic, no jobs, can't even find everything they need to buy. Keep crossing the border into Asia to buy goods.

Russians trying to escape and go to other countries for better life. Russian women on websites trying to find foreign husband to escape.

That's why those islands and people will be better with Japan. Fact

Predictable response by the US-founded LDP.

Japan was beaten in WWII. What do a loser expect ?

The stronger stance you show to Russia, thr less return you'll get.

Saying no to Putin's proposal and you lost capacity to negociate until his reign ends at least.

LDP's dreams.

Keep negotiating. Seek mediation from a neutral.