Ministers Kishi, Nishimura visit Yasukuni Shrine

Chicken Hawk like his brother so not a shock.

""I prayed for those who passed away in the war to rest in peace."

If they hadn't started it -- many of them war criminals -- they wouldn't have died from it.

"Japan's prosperity was built on their sacrifice."

Actually, it was built on labor trafficking kidnapped from neighboring nations, and on the backs of POWs.

But, hey, who'd expect people going to pray to war criminals -- some of whom are their grandparents (at least in a few politicians' case, like Abe) to acknowledge or care about that anyway?

Oh how wonderful, Kishi Nobuo keeping the flame of his class A war criminal grandfather US-supported Kishi Nobusuke alive and well.

From his post as Minister of Defense Nobu can continue to antagonize other countries in the region and thereby stimulate the 'need' to purchase more arms, draining even more money from the public coffers into his pockets and his cronies.

Normal citizens in need (i.e. afflicted with corona) can self-isolate at home and hope for the best, minimal resources will be used for them.

I would think it would be wonderful if thousands upon thousands would visit the shrine at the same time and chant, No More War.

"I prayed for those who passed away in the war to rest in peace. Japan's prosperity was built on their sacrifice. I vowed to continue pushing Japan forward on its postwar path as a pacifist state, and to never allow the horrors of war to come upon us again," he told reporters.

I have heard this rationalization before. Isn't it saying that the failure of the efforts of the living militarists, and the failure of the intentions of those who sacrificed their lives , is what led Japan to its' postwar prosperity and pacifism? So they are honoring misguided intentions and horrific failure of those plans of the people enshrined; resulting in a propitious result that more closely followed the ideas of the opponents of militarism?

Best to not give this any "space" and ignore them! They keep going because they get media coverage.

Take out the coverage, and see how fast they stop going!

Aside from the shrine controversy, isn't it essential to do it right now under the SOE? Their elitist behaviors mislead the public to play down the corona impact (or to feel unfairly treated due to exceptionalism; Minister Nishiura is warning people "not to move").

Stupid thing to be doing while telling everyone to stay put.

There’s nothing wrong with honoring the war dead. But I’m sure if Kishi became PM, he would immediately stop visiting the shrine.

@Marcel: Nice one. Maybe he forgot what his job is, like all the other flat nose over the mask bureaucrats.

Gold medal in KY and hypocrisy. Foul, nauseating people.

https://twitter.com/syouwaoyaji/status/739812948269355009/photo/1

"I prayed for those who passed away in the war to rest in peace."

Not sure if my soul could rest in peace if it had to share a shrine with the people that got me killed.

Those making fuss about human rights for detainees or prisoners convicted guilty (meaning

Justice proved it not innocent but guilty by your definition) should never complain about Yasukuni.

They are all dead. And every countries are to decide how they mourn their war-dead.

Hmm.. why is America tolerating this ?

paid tribute to those who gave their lives fighting for our country. Jesus even the top generals Yamamoto for a start said “we can’t win this” they didn’t give there lives they were sacrificed for a military agenda doomed to failure from the start. No matter what the Nippon party say, it really wasn’t the best of times or the happiest of times.

@kennyG

They are all dead. And every countries are to decide how they mourn their war-dead.

Actually it is not the country which decided but the head-monk, religious matter and politics are separated since the end of Japan imperialist wars moreover the Imperial family is not setting foot there anymore since the enshrinement and these class-A criminals did not die at war but after.

As said by other before :

STAY HOME

Wonder is someone is trying to upset neighbor to justify their increased budget request :

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20210813/p2a/00m/0na/008000c

n1k1:

Hmm.. why is America tolerating this ?

Freedom of religion.

moonbloom

Oh how wonderful, Kishi Nobuo keeping the flame of his class A war criminal grandfather US-supported Kishi Nobusuke alive and well.

Kishi Nobusuke was Kishi Nobuo's and Abe Shinzo's grandfather from mother's side. Abe Kan was their grandfather from his father's side. Abe Kan was also a politician but he was an antiwar politician who fought against Tojo's military government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kan_Abe

Actually it is not the country which decided but the head-monk, religious matter and politics are separated since the end of Japan imperialist wars moreover the Imperial family is not setting foot there anymore since the enshrinement and these class-A criminals did not die at war but after.

Dead on the battlefields or not, or later hung as war-criminals at unilateral revenge-drama stage with Ex post facto law does not matter. The meaning of Emperor(and his stance) which Allies had rejected to excusing for starting the war despite it being the only condition Japan kept to surrender doesn't matter does it? Democratic sovereign Japan decides how to mourn the war dead even if Yasukuni is not really so called a national cemetery.

Don't be like Korean/China who just using Yasukuni to excuse for endlessly keeping their political gains and cultic anti-Japan campaigns.

“There is no country that contributed more to Asia than Japan did. And there is no country that is more misunderstood than Japan is. It was the Japanese who freed us from the white domination. The true friend of independent Burma was General Tojo and Japan.”

Ba Maw Prime minister of Burma

kennyGToday  06:39 pm JST

And every countries are to decide how they mourn their war-dead.

Japan has decided to hold events at public facilities on the anniversary of the end of the war, not at a private religious institution. Private citizens may go there as much as they like to mourn relatives. Politicians go there to get attention and stay on the good side of the right-wingers and ultranationalists they want to get votes and money from.

“There is no country that contributed more to Asia than Japan did. And there is no country that is more misunderstood than Japan is. It was the Japanese who freed us from the white domination. The true friend of independent Burma was General Tojo and Japan.”

Ba Maw Prime minister of Burma

Quoting collaborators doesn't impress anyone.

Dead on the battlefields or not, or later hung as war-criminals at unilateral revenge-drama stage with Ex post facto law does not matter. The meaning of Emperor(and his stance) which Allies had rejected to excusing for **starting the war **despite it being the only condition Japan kept to surrender doesn't matter does it? Democratic sovereign Japan decides how to mourn the war dead even if Yasukuni is not really so called a national cemetery.

Of course, I messed up with US rejections (Hull Note) at the start of the war and the one at the end of the war.

I meant Allies (US) had rejected the meaning of Emperor despite it being the only condition Japan had kept for its surrender in order for testing the BOMBS

“The West has vested interests in recording Japan as the invading country so that they can justify their invasion of Asia. Crime against peace and crime against humanity are ex post fact laws, so that in the context of international law, there is no basis for accusing the Japan of a crime.”

Radhabinod Pal. An Indian jurist and a member of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East and United Nation’s International Law Commission

Japan has decided to hold events at public facilities on the anniversary of the end of the war, not at a private religious institution. Private citizens may go there as much as they like to mourn relatives. Politicians go there to get attention and stay on the good side of the right-wingers and ultranationalists they want to get votes and money from.

That's how you see it and nothing to with how Japan democratic sovereign nation and the people including politicians decide or behave toward Yasukuni.

If the people don't like it, they chose politicians who don't go there or disenshrine those you subjectively defined war-criminals by ex post fact law.

In short. None of your business.

America had it sight on Tokyo,if Japanese would of not came too their senses,Japanese paper tigers,should not start fires because they will be around to see it put out,and learn to live in harmony with their neighbors

@kennyG

Japan democratic sovereign nation sees Yasukuni as a shrine. State shintoism do not exist anymore.

People can behave how they want and other people can agree or disagree as they want too.

The enshrinement is decided by the head priest. People have no say in it. Be them politician or family. The priest claim they can not disenshrine, disregarding the possibility of global disenshrinement then reenshrinment or bunrei and kanjō. Meaning, even family wanting their family member disenshrined can not obtain it.

Since when did the West ever claim that they colonized right and left or even just Asia as related to the later japanese colonization ? Never heard of it.

If you enjoyed the colonization by Japan, good for you but anybody else is free to not share your view. Moreover in countries which had more than 3 years of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_occupation_of_Burma

I think that by attending this Shrine, these two bureaucrats are insulting Japan's SDF and MSDF.

I once had the privilege to visit Yasukuni Shrine.

The museum of weapons of war was fascinating; there were many devices that showed the desperation and willingness to sacrifice oneself to defend one's country from an overwhelming force.

However , the visit to the Hall of the Kamikaze pilots was so moving; a picture of each and their last letter home. Most looked like boys, boys too young , yet they gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country. It moved me to tears.

A visit to Yasukuni Shrine should be considered no different than a US President placing a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, or of any other world leader honoring their own war dead.

Shall we visit the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier or Gettysburg as already suggested? Every country should be allowed to honor their 'hallowed dead' in their own way and understand that these young people died in vain, for war never ends. And yes, there is also a Hall of the Kamikaze at Naval Academy Etajima and, if seeing those young, fresh energetic faces doomed by psychopathic generals who, themselves, should have been flying those missions in shame, if seeing them does not move you deeply, you're dead inside. A Hero is a Hero regardless of national identity. And try to recall that the 442nd Regimental Combat Team was the MOST decorated unit in the U.S. Army in WWII and were exclusively Japanese-Americans whose families were locked in Concentration Camps in America. Dedication to one's people knows no borders nor should ever be considered shameful.

KentarogaijinToday  06:02 am JST

It is the culture of Japan, the custom of Japan...

It is not the law of Japan. That says elected representatives of the people should attend only public events to commemorate the end of the war.

"A visit to Yasukuni Shrine should be considered no different than a US President placing a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, or of any other world leader honoring their own war dead."

Excellent !!.. This is the correct attitude from a grown person...

No, it isn't. Yasukuni Shrine is different. It's a private facility, not a public one like those others.

kennyGAug. 13  10:33 pm JST

"Japan has decided to hold events at public facilities on the anniversary of the end of the war, not at a private religious institution. Private citizens may go there as much as they like to mourn relatives. Politicians go there to get attention and stay on the good side of the right-wingers and ultranationalists they want to get votes and money from."

That's how you see it...

That's what the Constitution of Japan stipulates. Japanese politicians are constitutionally required not to participate in religious observations in an official capacity. What they do as private citizens is up to them, but if they get the media involved it's not private any more. It's a political activity.

If the people don't like it, they chose politicians who don't go there

If those politicians are candidates representing opposition parties in areas with heavy vote-value disparities that favour LDP incumbents, they're not very likely to get elected. Japanese elections have very little to do with the will of the people, more about cheats and frauds like Shinzo Abe gaming the system.

or disenshrine those you subjectively defined war-criminals by ex post fact law.

The priests claim that's impossible. Didn't you know that? They're certainly not going to listen to "the people" about anything.

＠Simon

"Japan has decided to hold events at public facilities on the anniversary of the end of the war, not at a private religious institution.

Except Japan held it at Yasukuni in 1964 and moved to Nihon Budo-kan due to the space problem at Yasukuni.

Private citizens may go there as much as they like to mourn relatives. Politicians go there to get attention and stay on the good side of the right-wingers and ultranationalists they want to get votes and money from."*

That's how you see it...

Indeed that is how you see it,....

> That's what the Constitution of Japan stipulates. Japanese politicians are constitutionally required not to participate in religious observations in an official capacity. What they do as private citizens is up to them, but if they get the media involved it's not private any more. It's a political activity.

The issue is not that simple and I know you know it.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%9D%96%E5%9B%BD%E7%A5%9E%E7%A4%BE%E5%95%8F%E9%A1%8C#%E9%9D%96%E5%9B%BD%E5%95%8F%E9%A1%8C%E3%81%AB%E9%96%A2%E3%81%99%E3%82%8B%E8%A8%B4%E8%A8%9F

What I meant by " Leave it to Japan and Japanese" does of course include Yasukuni-bill to be revisited or even up to constitutional change.

If the people don't like it, they chose politicians who don't go there

If those politicians are candidates representing opposition parties in areas with heavy vote-value disparities that favour LDP incumbents, they're not very likely to get elected. Japanese elections have very little to do with the will of the people, more about cheats and frauds like Shinzo Abe gaming the system.

No thanks for irrelevant issue

or disenshrine those you subjectively defined war-criminals by ex post fact law.

The priests claim that's impossible. Didn't you know that? They're certainly not going to listen to "the people" about anything.

Under traditional Shintoism, it is not impossible to disenshrine any. The separation between Buddhism and Shintoism during Meiji era was done in essence through dienshrinement.

People change their opinions, bereaved families, Int'l community, even Yasukuni Priests in future are not exceptions

It is not the law of Japan. That says elected representatives of the people should attend only public events to commemorate the end of the war.

While Article 20 of the constitution states that "The State and its organs shall refrain from religious education or any other religious activity", there is no punishment if a politician visits the shrine. It is however good practice to pay 玉串料 from their own expenses.

It is the culture of Japan, the custom of Japan, the belief of Japan, the temples of Japan, the affairs of Japan.. It is nobody else's business.. All countries have their special cult for their warriors no matter what they have. done good or bad.

Absolutely agree with you. This shall not be the business of any foreign country.

kennyGToday  12:12 pm JST

Except Japan held it at Yasukuni in 1964 and moved to Nihon Budo-kan due to the space problem at Yasukuni.

I don't think they'll be hosting any more official events there after the enshrinement of the war criminals.

The issue is not that simple and I know you know it.

Would you mind saying what you mean instead of just posting links to articles in Japanese?

No thanks for irrelevant issue

It was you who raised the topic of people voting against politicians if they don't like their views on this issue: "If the people don't like it, they chose politicians who don't go there". I pointed out that they often don't have much of a choice.

Under traditional Shintoism, it is not impossible to disenshrine any. The separation between Buddhism and Shintoism during Meiji era was done in essence through dienshrinement.

I don't think that's what the priests would have us believe.

People change their opinions, bereaved families, Int'l community, even Yasukuni Priests in future are not exceptions

Do you see the priests' attitudes on this issue changing very much?

Would you mind saying what you mean instead of just posting links to articles in Japanese?

Sorry, I ain't got time now but I may be back later. I just want to ask

Are those politicians clarifying if it is visit in their official capacity or just as an individual these days?

Also,

It was you who raised the topic of people voting against politicians if they don't like their views on this issue: "If the people don't like it, they chose politicians who don't go there". I pointed out that they often don't have much of a choice.

The issue of vote-value disparities, I must say irrellevent, If LDP screws up big time, they would still lose the majority seats. You know opposition parties still have significant number of seats don't you

Both Kishi and Nishimura said they made offerings, paid for out of their own pocket, as members of the House of Representatives.

Oh how wonderful, Kishi Nobuo keeping the flame of his class A war criminal grandfather US-supported Kishi Nobusuke alive and well.

Because Kishi Nobusuke was a US agent.

kennyGToday  01:22 pm JST

Would you mind saying what you mean instead of just posting links to articles in Japanese?

Sorry, I ain't got time now but I may be back later. I just want to ask

I may be able to answer if I know what you want to ask.

Are those politicians clarifying if it is visit in their official capacity or just as an individual these days?

This comment appears to indicate the former:

kennyGToday  01:26 pm JST

Both Kishi and Nishimura said they made offerings... as members of the House of Representatives.

What it really looks like to me though is political campaigning.

The issue of vote-value disparities, I must say irrellevent,

Is it? Urban voters who don't approve of government politicians' stance on this don't have much of a choice in the matter either as their votes are worth much less than those of rural conservatives who do approve.

If LDP screws up big time, they would still lose the majority seats. You know opposition parties still have significant number of seats don't you

What really matters is how many candidates they can field, not how many seats they have already. The LDP could screw everything up completely and it wouldn't matter at all unless one other party had enough candidates on its own to win a majority. No one wants a coalition of fractious parties who have nothing in common except wanting to win elections.

YubaruAug. 13  05:28 pm JST

Best to not give this any "space" and ignore them! They keep going because they get media coverage.

Take out the coverage, and see how fast they stop going!

Unfortunately the Japanese media is rated poorly for press freedom. It’s basically an arm of the LDP.

With the pandemic and relations with South Korea and China near all time lows, is this really the time to be visiting the shrine?

@Simon

Would you mind saying what you mean instead of just posting links to articles in Japanese?

Sorry, I ain't got time now but I may be back later. I just want to ask

I may be able to answer if I know what you want to ask.

I think you know what I asked

Are those politicians clarifying if it is visit in their official capacity or just as an individual these days?

This comment appears to indicate the former:

kennyGToday  01:26 pm JST

*Both Kishi and Nishimura said they made offerings... *as members of the House of Representatives.

What it really looks like to me though is political campaigning.

Gee. Of course You and Kyodo wouldn't miss that part that I knew it. If you really want to dig such trivial parts up in order to make a fuss, please think about it. Yasukuni requires any visitors to register Name and vocation

into the note by handwriting. Media asks and politicians answer how they filled in that part. Either you left it blank or wrote jobless, none, unemployed...whatever sounds like lie

These two ministers wrote members of the House of Representatives.... Not a minister of Defence or.....

*These are intentional excuse I know **with that "visited as an individual whose vocation is a law maker."*

So Is this kind of behavior something you cannot endure?

@simon

The issue of vote-value disparities, I must say irrellevent,

Is it? Urban voters who don't approve of government politicians' stance on this don't have much of a choice in the matter either as their votes are worth much less than those of rural conservatives who do approve.

If LDP screws up big time, they would still lose the majority seats. You know opposition parties still have significant number of seats don't you

What really matters is how many candidates they can field, not how many seats they have already. The LDP could screw everything up completely and it wouldn't matter at all unless one other party had enough candidates on its own to win a majority. No one wants a coalition of fractious parties who have nothing in common except wanting to win elections.

Please. There is a thing called priority in each voters mind when voting into manifesto/principle of each parties. You seem to like politics but that technical issue of vote-value disparities really is something not worth for me to stick onto keyboards. I don't think it is the fundamental reason for this Yasukuni-mess.

pS, I can't respond for next 5 hours

kennyGToday  05:25 pm JST

@simon

Please. There is a thing called priority in each voters mind when voting into manifesto/principle of each parties.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

You seem to like politics but that technical issue of vote-value disparities really is something not worth for me to stick onto keyboards.

Maybe not. It still means that certain citizens get more of a say in how their government and politicians behave than others do.

kennyGToday  05:14 pm JST

I think you know what I asked

Are those politicians clarifying if it is visit in their official capacity or just as an individual these days?

So that's your question. I see. Of course they're not claiming to be there on official business, because that's not allowed. That kind of goes against the oft-repeated claim though that it's Japan's right to honour the war dead any way it sees fit, i.e. with Yasukuni visits, because of the restrictions on politicians.

kennyGToday  05:14 pm JST

Yasukuni requires any visitors to register Name and vocation into the note by handwriting. Media asks and politicians answer how they filled in that part.

I'm sure the politicians make sure the media get opportunities to ask, and give very clear and unambiguous answers too, so that all the necessary people get the message.

It is their right to honor their past war dead as it is the right of any person in the world to do the same. Honoring the war dead is not equitable to honoring war criminals.

In the world press freedom index

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

Japan is ranked 67 which is about on the same level as Mongolia and Tunisia. So the Japanese people are not getting real facts about their history.

Japanese just get all fake news controlled by the ruling party that has been is power for about 70 years.

In a normal democracy you would get some change of government but because the media is blocked and controlled but in Japan nothing changes.

On the other hand one party control means that Japan won’t progress much which if you’re not a fan of the Japanese you might actually like this situation.

oldman_13Today  07:44 pm JST

It is their right to honor their past war dead...

You just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. There are constitutional restrictions in Japan on how elected legislators may honour the war dead. Private citizens have constitutionally protected freedom of religion so no one is saying they can't do as they please. They can live at Yasukuni for all I care. Got it?

What is wrong with Yasukuni

In order to answer this question first of all one has to understand what Yasukuni stands for!

In the middle of the 19th century power in Japan shifted from the Shogun to the Emperor who became the ruler, father and god of a nation that was modelled according to the traditional concept of an "Ie" or extended family. Yasukuni was established in 1866 in honour of all those warriors who gave their live for this concept of family nation with the emperor at its center, called “Kokutai Shugi”(remember Prime Minister Mori?!). So the first souls, that were enshrined there and became guardian spirits of the nation (just as the ancestors in a regular family), had fought against their fellow Japanese who defended the Shogunat. "Kokutai Shugi" eventually became the core of an ultra nationalist ideology under which freedom was suppressed at home and war spread to many neighbouring countries, namely Korea and China. While it could be said that most of the over 2 Million souls enshrined at Yasukuni were victims of a religiously trimmed nationalism themselves, it should also be remembered that on their way to “sainthood” they caused the untimely and cruel death of more than ten times as many of their Asian neighbours.

Just make a few cosmetic adjustments to the historical facts and Yasukuni goes as a culturally embedded memorial for the war dead. Japan has had a long history of reinventing its own tradition during the Tokugawa and Meiji Period. The Problem in a democracy is not that these reinterpretation of history exist, but that hardly anybody questions them and the education system doesn’t encourage Japanese students to do so. Imagine that Germany would have a memorial of the core of its nazi ideology.