S Korean court rejects appeal from ex-comfort women on Japan assets

Look how good relation Japan and Taiwan has. Ask old Taiwanese who are still missing their good Japanese days and ask Taiwanese perception is so different from Koreans.

Some mainland Chinese see the Taiwanese as nothing more than Japanese to be loathed. They see Taiwan as being too close to Japan still and therefore beneath them. It is an interesting dynamic. Many times I have heard mainland Chinese call Taiwanese a derogatory term used for Japanese.

@Desert Tortoise

Agreed. Until recently, the people in my country feared the Japanese way more than China. My grandparent's generation especially so. I remember watching anime like Dragon Ball Z as a child and my grandparents scolded me fiercely for watching "Japanese propaganda". Of course my generation has far less animosity towards Japan and now China is our enemy number one. But the people of my country have not forgotten the brutality of the Japanese.

"Half my family is Chinese."

"Ten years ago if you asked most people in Asia which nation they feared more, Japan or China most would have told you Japan. It has only been in the last five or six years as the Chinese have become increasingly aggressive"

There you go again. Your view points have been colored by the experiences of your own family members.

Have you personally asked 'most people in Asia' about which country they detested more out of Japan or China ten years ago? Or did you read about it somewhere and if yes, was that an unbiased opinion poll that considered all Asian countries? The view points of your own family members or maybe all the Chinese do not mean that those are the same opinions or attitudes that all other Asians harbor towards Japan.

My country has a long history with both Japan and China. With China we go back thousands of years.

If you asked anyone from my country who knew a bit about the world 100 years a go about which Asian country they admired the most the answer would have been Japan - a rising Asian power which had defeated an imperial European power like Russia and given a ray of hope and confidence to those Asians who had become used to living under the colonial boot. Same answer 75 years ago when the war ended with the defeat of Japan. Because yes, Japan was guilty of aggression but the motive and intent behind it was not much different to the motivations of those Europeans who came to Asia ostensibly to trade but went on to rule by deceit and moral duplicity.

Same answer 50, 40 or 30 years ago. And same answer today.

China is not the entire Asia. Sure you can hate Japan all that you want for something that the previous generations of Japanese did 80 years ago to some of your family members. But that still does not mean that you can extrapolate your own personal opinion to that of all Asians and pass dubious claims that Japan is hated all over Asia.

But you need to revisit your claim that Japan is hated all over Asia because of whatever they did during WW2. You are not an Asian and no one has given you the authority to speak on behalf of all Asians. You probably have not even interacted with enough Asians who suffered under the European colonial yoke to make that statement.

Half my family is Chinese. I spent my military service in Asia. Even the Americans I served with distrusted Japan. When we worked with them they were pros, but that lack of trust was a constant. I vividly recall the dismay on board our AOE when we were put under the command of a JMSDF Admiral in a Japanese task force. A real WTF moment sailing under the very same naval ensign that led the Pearl Harbor Raid. To us, we were there to prevent Japan from feeling the need to rearm and threaten her neighbors again. That was our position. We spoke openly about it. Ten years ago if you asked most people in Asia which nation they feared more, Japan or China most would have told you Japan. It has only been in the last five or six years as the Chinese have become increasingly aggressive and Japan has become the object of Chinese territorial aggression that Japan's neighbors have begun to view Japan more favorably than China. Sorry all that offends you but that was the view from the decks of the ships, flight lines of the air stations and the many little shops and restaurants in the western Pacific ports we visited. I am not concerned if anyone likes that or not. Both sides of my family suffered from the IJA and the Japanese have never apologized for it.

"This is exactly the detestable lie taught in Japan by the far right that the rest of the world finds so offensive."

In case you didn't get it, I am not a Japanese.

I don't care what the far right spews out in Japan because I have seen enough of the far right nonsense in my own country and have learned not to take them seriously. I am sure you folks also don't believe everything that comes out of the right wing propaganda machine in the US.

But you need to revisit your claim that Japan is hated all over Asia because of whatever they did during WW2. You are not an Asian and no one has given you the authority to speak on behalf of all Asians. You probably have not even interacted with enough Asians who suffered under the European colonial yoke to make that statement.

And yes, I had a family member in my extended family who fought for the British Empire in WW2 and he saw the double standards meted out to his fellow regimental soldiers who were treated like second class citizens inspite of the fact that they left their home and their families to fight a war that was not theirs to begin with. But loyal soldiers they were, so they fought like they were trained to fight by their masters. Many of his fellow soldiers never came back, and many were captured as POWs by the Japanese but most of those who were captured by the Japanese were treated well if they switched sides and fought the British.

My country looked up to Japan during those days and it looks up to Japan today. So no, your claim that Japan is hated all over Asia is colored by your own personal biases. You don't speak for all Asians and you certainly don't speak for me.

Many Asians who were victims of European colonialism supported Japan during WW2 because they saw an Asian power sticking it to the white man and beating them at their own game.

This is exactly the detestable lie taught in Japan by the far right that the rest of the world finds so offensive. It is not an excuse for the barbarities inflicted on Japan's neighbors or the many prisoners the IJA captured. And yes, my family very much had skin in that war, both theaters, including an uncle injured fighting the Japanese. Until Japan repents of their barbarities in the manner of the Germans they won't be trusted. If you think my attitude is harsh you should speak to my in-laws. The Japanese didn't do nice things to my mother in law's home town and she's old enough to remember.

@Sindhoor GK

The economy is out of the topic. The ultimate cause of Japanese distortion and denial of history and identity can be found in Nara, which Professor Murph did not pinpoint in his book.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2003/07/06/general/buried-treasure-the-mysteries-and-majesty-of-nara/

@SJ I'm reading the book written by Prof Taggart murphy and There are a couple of significant blindspots in that book regarding how Japan economy functions. While it is a good book for those who know nothing about How the Japanese economy functions, I can't help but disagree on a lot of points and it gave a few misleading ideas about a lot of prefectures and secondly, as a person who worked with both Japanese and Korean companies, I don't agree on his views about the corporate Korea.

Why are South Koreans such deniers of their own history?

Hong Sa Ik

"ww2dbaseBetween 1939 and 1940, Hong served with the China Expeditionary Army and fought in the early stages of the Second Sino-Japanese War that began in Jul 1937. Between 1940 and 1941, he served with the 1st Depot Division. In 1941, he became the commanding officer of the 108th Infantry Brigade at the rank of major general. In Mar 1944, he was transferred to the 14th Area Army and was given charge of all prisoner-of-war camps in the Philippine Islands. In Oct 1944, he was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general.

ww2dbaseAfter WW2, Hong was imprisoned by the Americans and tried before an Allied military tribunal. On 18 Apr 1946, he was found guilty as a war criminal as he was found responsible for prison guards under his command, both Japanese and Korean in ethnicity, who committed numerous acts of atrocities against American and Filipino prisoners. He was given the death sentence. He was executed by hanging in Sep 1946 in Manila, Philippines shortly after he requested a minister to read to him Psalm 51 from the Christian bible."

https://ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=469

"Hong Sa Ik - a lieutenant general in the Imperial Japanese Army, and the top-ranking ethnic Korean in Japan to be charged with war crimes relating to the conduct of the Empire of Japan in World War II."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Sa-ik

"

2 THE KOREAN VOLUNTEER SOLDIER SYSTEMS (pp. 43-91)The Korean Special Volunteer Soldier System (J: Chōsenjin Tokubetsu Shiganhei Seido) began in 1938, the year after war erupted between Japan and China. Between 1938 and 1943 the Japanese army received more than 800,000 applications for military service, and enlisted 17,664 Korean volunteer soldiers; 6,203 students applied for the Korean Student Special Volunteer Soldier System (J: Chōsenjin Gakuto Tokubetsu Shiganhei Seido) in 1943, and the army drafted 4,385. Another 90,000 submitted applications for the Naval Special Volunteer System (J: Kaigun Tokubetsu Shiganhei Seido), and the navy enlisted 2,000 sailors.¹ Given the large numbers of Koreans who applied for military service,..."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctvcwnnqd

There are Koreans who still deny that some Koreans volunteered to become comfort women or helped recruit other comfort women.

The book uses the women’s testimonies and historical documents, noting some were prostitutes rather than slaves, some soldiers helped those who were slaves escape and some Koreans worked as “dealers” who made the system possible.

After Park’s indictment for defamation in November 2015, 54 scholars – including MIT professor Noam Chomsky and University of Chicago professor and Korean history expert Bruce Cumings – issued statements in her defence.

But the factual accuracy of the book was irrelevant because in South Korea, a statement does not have to be false to constitute defamation – it merely has to be considered damaging.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/2118358/south-korean-professor-fined-book-about-comfort-women-proving

@Sindhoor GK @EvilBuddha

Why do Japanese politicians try so hard to distort their own history and identity? I would recommend the following book and article written by reliable scholars.

https://www.amazon.com/Japan-Shackles-Past-Taggart-Murphy/dp/0190619589

https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/in-search-of-japanese-roots

"It affects how the whole world views Japan and their trustworthiness. It is Japan's lack of forthrightness that poisons their relations with South Korea and China and to a slightly lesser extent all of Asia."

Speak for yourself Desert Tortoise.

Japan is more trusted in my country than the US or any other country for that matter will ever be. Your limited view point is probably colored by the experiences of your family members who may have suffered or seen the suffering during the Pacific War, but not all of Asia views Japan the same way. China and Korea is not the entire Asia.

Many Asians who were victims of European colonialism supported Japan during WW2 because they saw an Asian power sticking it to the white man and beating them at their own game.

Secondly, the tragic past of WW2 is being kept alive in South Korea for political reasons. I have been to the cringeworthy Seodaemun prison in Seoul and seen the indoctrination first hand. Groups of school kids were on tours conducted by their schools so the brainwashing begins early over there.

Your opinions regarding the Japanese are biased, the Japan of today is completely different from the Japan of the Pacific War.

@desert Tortoise

The most stupid thing I've ever read is the statement that Japan doesn't teach it's history. Just because a 1 or 2 textbooks have been approved(absolutely nobody uses them) out of many of the accurate ones to satisfy the right-wingers doesn't mean that history isn't being taught. What do you think huh? Do you think the schools and universities are stupid? not to mention there's absolutely no censorship of Internet in Japan. This Japan doesn't teach it's history thing is utter BS.

@desert Tortoise

You didn't read the article. did you?

actually, not entirely true. The history wars started happening between both the countries right after Japan lose the war.

I think you missed my point. What I was saying is that Japan does not teach an honest account of their history from the mid 1800s through the end of of WWII. It is more than just Japan Korea relations. It affects how the whole world views Japan and their trustworthiness. It is Japan's lack of forthrightness that poisons their relations with South Korea and China and to a slightly lesser extent all of Asia.

@desert Tortoise

actually, not entirely true. The history wars started happening between both the countries right after Japan lose the war.

https://www.orfonline.org/research/east-asia-history-wars/

this article sums up the post war thing.

Most Japanese have no idea how many Koreans were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the atomic bombs in 1945, not to mention the conscripted laborers. This is the consequence of the Japanese history textbooks.

This statement by SJ should not have a single down vote. It is a factually true statement. Japan's greatest post WWII weakness is their deliberate whitewash of their history from the mid 1800s through the end of WWII. Germany teaches its children the raw, unvarnished truth. Their military leaders visit the sites of their worst atrocities and apologize profusely during official ceremonies. The Germans are now widely trusted although not so prominent in the press there remains many ongoing disputes over art works and wealth looted by the Nazis and stashed in other nations, or of Jewish families trying to recover their wealth stolen from them by Germans and other Nazi aligned countries. The German government however is not seen as trying to suppress this history. It is all out in the open for everyone to examine, and they certainly do not honor their war criminals at a national shrine.

SJJune 19  07:50 am JST

Unlike the conforming Japanese, Korean judges show diverse opinions and verdicts, which is not so bad in a democratic society. International law is still developing, and difficult to interpret. It is not surprising that contrasting decisions are made among judges. Democracy develops by argument and discussion, not by collective uniformity.

Excellent insight.

Hell teeth, that BTS for heavens sake, I have emails from non voting family members insisting I correct the blasphemy.

SJ, these comfort Women pensioners need closure, shines, and education of the next generation can come later,

In all honestly, I would not hold out to much hope in Textbook Controversies, Nationalism, and Historical Memory,

The J next generation would vote for BLS than the current Suga Government , if they could name even three of the current cabinet.

Life is staring down a smart phone, and/or idol gossip. dribbling and frothing at the mouth over some nameless celebrity.

Most Japanese have no idea how many Koreans were killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the atomic bombs in 1945, not to mention the conscripted laborers. This is the consequence of the Japanese history textbooks.

@OssanAmerica

When did the Japanese kill over a million Koreans? 

We do know that 5,400,000 Koreans were conscripted for labor beginning in 1939 (line 119), but how many died can only be roughly estimated.

...

Even at these low rates, however, the forced labor toll for Korea comes to 270,000 to 810,000 dead in seven years.

https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM

The recently estimated number of conscripted Koreans is 8 million. You may translate the following articles in Korean to Japanese.

https://www.donga.com/news/Politics/article/all/20050118/8150975/1

https://www.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2013/11/19/2013111901719.html

@Coffee

South Korea is using its victim status to indoctrinate its children to hate Japan. 

It depends on Japan. S. Korea is always defensive. Look at Japan what they are doing now.

Suga sends offering to war-linked Yasukuni Shrine

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/3102200/japans-former-pm-shinzo-abe-visits-controversial-yasukuni

Japan's Abe sends offering to Yasukuni war dead shrine on WW2 anniversary

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ww2-anniversary-japan-idUSKCN25A22Z

How Do the Japanese Teach About WWII?

https://youtu.be/9K4zhfMHM4U

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies

Japanese Textbook Controversies, Nationalism, and Historical Memory: Intra- and Inter-national Conflicts

https://apjjf.org/-Mark-Selden/3173/article.html

https://www.heritage.org/asia/report/the-pearl-harbor-anniversary-japan-still-says-dont-blame-me

Again sk said smit bhaijan

Tom DoleyToday  07:58 am JST

Koreans are obsessed with things that happened over seventy years ago, yet they forgot all about the time North Korea bombed Yeonpyeong elven years ago, or the time North Korea killed and burned a South Korean diplomat only two years ago.

You’re comparing a few deaths to over a million deaths and rape. 

When did the Japanese kill over a million Koreans? Japanese and Koreans haven't fought since the 1500s. There was no war between them that lead to the 1910 annexation, after which Koreans were Japanese citizens. As for "rape" over 250,000 Korean men served in the Imperial Armed Forces and made use of the Comfort Stations. Typical anti-J nonsense removed from history.

Unlike the conforming Japanese, Korean judges show diverse opinions and verdicts, which is not so bad in a democratic society.

Someone has either not spent enough time in South Korea or spent too much time there.

You’re comparing a few deaths to over a million deaths and rape. Further, the things that happened over 70 years ago wasn’t one off. More like hundreds of times in the past millennium. Any nation would remember that for generations.

Past grudges should never take priority over present threats, especially if said present threats involve nuclear weapons.

South Korea is using its victim status to indoctrinate its children to hate Japan. Their children drew pictures of Japan bring nuked, and a district tried to make it mandatory to put stickers in classrooms that say “This device was made by a war criminal”. My classmates in high school spit on me for wanting to study in Japan. My own parents constantly reminded me what Japan did as if it happened yesterday instead of seventy years ago.

Just two years ago, people were harassing a US official for having a moustache similar to a long dead Japanese general's, three people tried to break into the Japanese embassy, and the government lied about consulting the US about scrapping GSOMIA.

Meanwhile, Moon dissolved the comfort women foundation that Japan created, and the leader of a Korean activist group was arrested for embezzling money meant for the comfort women.

South Korea's obsession with Japan is hypocrytical and self-destructive and makes me ashamed to be Korean.

You don't get it, this is the same judge who threw out the forced laborer case. Of course this ruling will be appealed to the supreme court that already OK the seizure of Japanese assets.

Be exact. It is just the assets of Japanese corp's subsidiaries operating in South Korea as South Korean judicial entities under the disguise of domestic issues. Not the one of Japanese government.

The 1965 treaty absolutely did not cover the damages resulting from Imperial Japan's crimes against humanity.

which is the interpretation, word by word, that is being criticized as unilateral, selfish, domestic one beyond international law by this judge and minority opinions in 2018

It is not uncommon for this to happen in any nations courts. Judges and even juries can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. One of the reasons the US has a Supreme Court is to settle conflicting rulings among different appellate courts. There is a pretty steady drumbeat of such cases in the US courts system.

I doubt it simply. For just similar domestic trials which happen from time to time with reasonable interval, maybe yes.

Like you posted in other threads, Int'l treaties would normally become quasi-domestic law or at least, would be fully supported by new bill in order not to cause any confliction between two laws in any nations.

These are the exact same cases involving another nation & treaties & diplomatic protections, etc which verdicts got flipped over within such short timeframe twice in comfort women and wartime labor.

If include this disclosure or cannot seizure orders regarding Japanese government asset, it would become 3 times

Sure plaintiffs cannot stand it and of course would appeal. otherwise, it is just like lottery. Citizen get completely at loss which way they should go if things are like this and considered not so bad.

Why South Korea is like this? Simple. Anti-Japan tribalism has kept pressing impossible fake narratives and brainwashing citizen and the someone who finally realized it feel for the fate of the country being out of control

and fighting here and there, even within Seoul central district court.

@oldman_13

Good, let them keep filing these pointless appeals and lawsuits

You don't get it, this is the same judge who threw out the forced laborer case. Of course this ruling will be appealed to the supreme court that already OK the seizure of Japanese assets.

Not only did the 1965 normalization treaty take care of this

The 1965 treaty absolutely did not cover the damages resulting from Imperial Japan's crimes against humanity.

@Wobot

Maybe this will be the end of it

Don't worry, the supreme court will overturn this judge's ruling.

lmao. 2 different groups face totally opposite verdicts at almost same timing in both comfort women trial

It is not uncommon for this to happen in any nations courts. Judges and even juries can look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. One of the reasons the US has a Supreme Court is to settle conflicting rulings among different appellate courts. There is a pretty steady drumbeat of such cases in the US courts system.

The court ordered Japan to disclose it's asset in the country 

I do not expect the Japanese government to even acknowledge the Korean court. To do so would admit a Korean court has a degree of authority over Japan. Not going to happen. In US jurisprudence it would be up to the plaintiffs to identify such assets and for there to be a trial to determine culpability. Once cannot simply seize assets just because they are Japanese. But then there was this treaty that was signed by Japan and ROK in 1965 that sort of settled those matters for all time precisely to prevent this sort of thing.

the international community, group of 100 Japanese lawyers, and even past Japanese prime ministers stand with you.

the international community which must somehow pretend doing something for being paid so picks

easy job never keep tackling real on-going issues. Their greatest rapporteurs are bunch of useless xxxxxx

group of 100 Japanese lawyers, do include not a few Koreans , naturized ethnic Koreans. By the way, Does South Korea allow Japanese citizen to become official lawyer over there doing such kind of political activities?

even past Japanese prime ministers stand with you, who is simply nuts. None takes him seriously here in Japan. That's why his PM days being called nightmare, which is one of reasons approval rating for CDPJ is still 1/10 of LDP

Unlike the conforming Japanese, Korean judges show diverse opinions and verdicts, which is not so bad in a democratic society. International law is still developing, and difficult to interpret. It is not surprising that contrasting decisions are made among judges. Democracy develops by argument and discussion, not by collective uniformity.

lmao. 2 different groups face totally opposite verdicts at almost same timing in both comfort women trial

and war time labor trial. The court ordered Japan to disclose it's asset in the country and the same court rejected appeal to seize Japan's asset just a week after. What the heck should ordinary citizen think and do under your greatest separation of powers which you claim is not so bad. Is it really not so bad? Nah. It is just a MESS

People there are ruled not by law, but just by fate

@Falco

Koreans are obsessed with things that happened over seventy years ago,

Look back at your own politicians first.

Seventy-five years after Japan’s defeat in World War Two, Tokyo’s Yasukuni Shrine for war dead is a potent symbol of the controversy that persists over the conflict’s legacy in East Asia.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-ww2-anniversary-yasukuni-explainer-idUKKCN25003Z

https://apnews.com/article/world-news-japan-china-yoshihide-suga-tokyo-58880146fcb4520b12cf88472d3f222b

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/3102200/japans-former-pm-shinzo-abe-visits-controversial-yasukuni

Koreans are obsessed with things that happened over seventy years ago, yet they forgot all about the time North Korea bombed Yeonpyeong elven years ago, or the time North Korea killed and burned a South Korean diplomat only two years ago.

You’re comparing a few deaths to over a million deaths and rape. Further, the things that happened over 70 years ago wasn’t one off. More like hundreds of times in the past millennium. Any nation would remember that for generations.

Hey South Korea,

the international community, group of 100 Japanese lawyers, and even past Japanese prime ministers stand with you. Do not cave into the bombardment of aggression and fake news propagated by jgov. You have every right to seek and receive compensation directly from Japan.

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=NORMLEXPUB:13100:0::NO::P13100_COMMENT_ID:2218404

The two contrary decisions underscore the mixed opinions among judges over whether the assets can be seized or not.

Unlike the conforming Japanese, Korean judges show diverse opinions and verdicts, which is not so bad in a democratic society. International law is still developing, and difficult to interpret. It is not surprising that contrasting decisions are made among judges. Democracy develops by argument and discussion, not by collective uniformity.

Koreans are obsessed with things that happened over seventy years ago, yet they forgot all about the time North Korea bombed Yeonpyeong elven years ago, or the time North Korea killed and burned a South Korean diplomat only two years ago.

Good, let them keep filing these pointless appeals and lawsuits, and let them continue to be rejected.

The South Korean government is the one that is responsible for giving proper financial restitution to the comfort women, NOT the government of Japan. Not only did the 1965 normalization treaty take care of this, but so did TWO official governmental apologies and compensations offered to the comfort women by Japan. The anti-Japan nationalists despicably used these poor comfort women for their own selfish causes, and continue to use them for anti-Japan propaganda (one of these people actually used funds from the second comfort women compensation (2015) for their own personal use).